Healing out Loud | How to Handle Mental Health in Clinical Research

Discover Jess Thompson’s insights on mental health in the clinical research field. This discussion dives into strategies, challenges, and the evolving role of mental well-being in shaping clinical trial success.

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Music. Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of The SCORR cast. Actually, as I am recording this, it is January 3, and I have Jess Thompson with me. This is the first recording in 2025 for the SCORR cast, and there's no better way to get the year started. And I'm not just saying that because Jess and I spent the last 15 minutes laughing as we were getting ready to record about all the different things that are going on in the world, but really, because I'm so excited to have Jess come on and talk about a really important topic within the clinical research space. We're going to really talk about mental health. We're going to just talk about what it is to exist in this space and how we can, you know, survive, how we can thrive, and how we can put our best foot forward in 2025 but before we do that, Jess, I'm gonna, I'm gonna toss you the microphone here for kind of your background, if you want to introduce yourself to the audience and let us know you know your career, your background, a little bit more about the association, and then really, you know maybe why you're so passionate about this topic, too. Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me, Alec, I'm really excited, and thank you so much for even making this the first one of the year, because I think it's so important for all of us to talk about mental health. And I'll kind of go in that a little bit more detail if you know the audience members don't really know me or kind of know my story so But first, let me just tell you all why we were laughing so hard because my little sister came in the door while we were getting ready to start the recording, and a dog peed in the floor. So it's only uphill or, you know, it can only get better from here, right? Unless something else happens. But you know, that's all right, so I'm Jess Thompson. I'm Jess Thompson. I'm the founder and CEO of the Clinical Research Project Managers Association. I've been in the clinical research industry for a little over 15 years. I started in a lab, and then I worked my way to a coordinator position, then into a regulatory position, and then into kind of managing INDs and IDEs and project manager. All of that was at academic medical centers. And then I moved over to the CRO world, where I was a CTM, and then moved over to the sponsor world, where I was a country trial manager. And then after that, I honestly got really, really burned out in clinical research and was planning on leaving the industry. And I kind of just had a really hard moment with myself, and said, you know, what do you like about this job? What do you like about this industry? What brings you joy? And it was not filling out spreadsheets all day and having to meet deadlines that were unrealistic and having to, you know, be on top of my team, 24/7, about getting a report in when they were traveling 15 days a month like that was not that was not in line with my integrity and who I am as a person. And I was just feeling really out of alignment and working those crazy hours, especially during COVID. I mean, 40, you know, 60 to 80 hour weeks, like, when you're supposed to be working 40, it's not okay. It's not okay for anybody. And so after that, I really just kind of, like, I said, took a step back and decided, okay, what do I like about my job? What have I loved? And it's really been the training and mentorship and, you know, just bringing together a community, because I always that was the one of the biggest things about my teams, was making them feel safe and secure in their roles, training on project management, because there's so many tools and techniques that we don't talk about in clinical research that every other industry uses for project management, and that's where crpm Association really came about was wanting to create this so well, okay, selfishly, it was me wanting to find my passion again. Me wanting to stay in the industry and then also building and mentoring and helping others to really not only figure out some project management tools and techniques, but also putting at the forefront of that the well being of our clinical research professionals, because I did hit that really hard break, like breakdown, to be completely honest with you. And I guess I can kind of segue into why I'm so passionate about mental health in this industry. And it really is that, you know, we are an industry full of type A OCD like the perfect people to hit burnout. You know what? I mean? We're all so excited we love what we do, but where there's no give sometimes, and there's no breaks, and we're all working over the clock, no matter the hours, especially. As some of these, these companies really want to move to, like the around the globe setting and like that just blows my mind. Of you want us to be available 24/7, and that's not okay, and that's really what led to my complete burnout. And I actually checked myself in somewhere, because I got to a point where I did it. I couldn't. I knew that I couldn't do this for one second longer, and I recognized how deep I had gotten into like, depression and anxiety, and I was having panic attacks, like constantly I was crying between meetings, like I'd pull it together to host a meeting and then fall my eyes out after it. And it just wasn't healthy and on it. To be honest with you, this was in May of 2023, and I just now I'm starting to feel like I have my mental health back on track. Because when you reach burnout, especially that final level of burnout, where you're like, I have to take immediate action, or I might not survive this, it takes a very, very long time to come back from it. And so I've made it my mission to really heal out loud, because I think it's so important, and so many individuals in our industry are facing these issues, anxiety, depression, panic disorder. OCD, any of these kind of things. ADHD, you know, there's so much that we all we all hit on, and we're literally trying to help the world by finding medications, but killing ourselves in the process. And that irony is so wild to me, where a lot of our companies don't even take into consideration. They may say that they have mental health ideas or concepts or support, but when push comes to shove, do they? Are they more worried about the budget and the money, or are they worried about you? And the truth is that they're worried about the budget and the money and what you produce. So you have to take care of you. You're the only person that's really going to manage that. And like I said, that's one of the things that I've been really passionate about after I hit that level of burnout, and that's really when I started getting a lot of followers on LinkedIn, because I was just open about it, because the thing like I said, I heal. I want to heal out loud so others don't die in silence. And it's hard to do, and it's really hard putting yourself out there in that way, but I've always said that if it helps one person, then it's worth all the pain and everything I'm feeling about pushing that submit button or post button, because it was wild. How many messages and comments and everything I got from individuals saying they were facing this too, and that made me know that I really needed to continue the conversation, continue pushing for this in clinical research, because it's such a needed area. And it's really cool to see how the industry's kind of shifted in that two and a half years. And yeah, so it's really neat. And like even having this podcast, that's incredible. I never even dreamed that we would be talking about it for everybody two and a half years later. Yeah, well man Jess talk about starting the episode with a right hook and and coming in, and I have, I have to follow up, because I love the the heel out loud. And, you know, it's been, it's been really interesting. Over the last six or seven months, I've had, I think we're over. We're over 30 different people that have joined this podcast. And at some point, mental health burnout. How do you stay focused? How do you, you know, keep the end result of why you got in the industry? All of those topics somehow come up. Whether we are talking about deep, you know, logistics, on the clinical research side, if we're talking about medical writing, if we're talking about marketing, somehow this is weaved in. I'm curious, as somebody who also had that happen to me in a different profession. I had to leave the profession, right? And I it was, it was to the point where I was throwing up in between meetings. And I was, I need to go as far as way as possible. So what kept you in the clinical research space? What kept you, and you said, you know, selfishly, this is for finding your passion again, with the association. But what kept you in clinical research, what kept you in the work that that we get to do in this industry? Yeah, first of all, I just want to say, I'm sorry you had to experience that because it's horrible. It's one of the worst things in the world, especially when it's something you were so passionate about, to then recognize that what you were passionate about and what you like, every career aspiration you had had led you to this moment, and then you realize that your career is actually killing you, and it's hard to grieve that. I'm sure you had to grieve that as well. Of like, this isn't what I thought it was going to be, you know, I never, and it happens. So, like, out of the you know what? I mean, I don't even know that, but it's like snowball snowballs. And then one day it's like, holy cow, I've been in the wrong, you know, for lack of a better terms, it's an abusive relationship with the profession, right? And absolutely, that's how it feels sometimes. Yeah, I always compare it to, like, a commute, right? Like every day, your commute gets 30 seconds longer, and it used to be 15 minutes, and then you look up and you recognize it's now two hours. But that happens over time, but it's such small increments that it happens over that you don't recognize it until you have this, like, crazy eye opening moment, or, like, you get to the point where we got where I was crying, or you were throwing up or whatever, and then you're like, oh my god, what is happening here? And I agree, like I there was a very strong chance that I was planning on leaving, and for a long time I planned on it, until I made the post on LinkedIn. So I did a partial hospitalization program for eight weeks, and it was really intense therapy, Monday through Friday, and then we had group therapy, and we saw psychiatrists and do, like, some coping mechanism things, and that truly saved my life. Like, I'll say that that same I say that that saved my life, and then ketamine therapy changed my life, because those two things have been so instrumental in my mental health journey and recovering from that, because it was just so intense, and it was so I felt like I was at a place that I couldn't dig myself out of, but posting that on LinkedIn and then seeing the response, I was shocked, to be completely honest with you, and there was a little bit of time that I had to step away from LinkedIn because LinkedIn because of other issues that I can't really go into, but there was reasons that I couldn't post anymore. But then there came a time where I was able to post again, and that's when I really started for that six months in between, though, I was really just working on myself. I was in therapy a lot. I was I had also had a lot of surgeries because of doctor's appointments that I had missed because of work deadlines. And I had like, four surgeries in three months. It was crazy, so I was just like, surviving, right? And then once so I was laid off, and once I was laid off, i i then kind of just was like, Okay, we got to figure this out. We got to figure out what we want to do because, and really, what I thought was, I've worked in this career, and I've loved it every step of the way, but I have to figure out what I'm passionate about now, because trying to manage a study is throwing me into a panic attack just thinking about it, yeah, like I would see my company's name on a pin and have a panic attack, and it was wild, like, Who knew that that could happen? And, you know? But, um, yeah, so I would say you have to, kind of, I, I'm a big fan of journaling and kind of just writing it all out and really thinking it through. Of, what are you passionate about? What do you like about the job, but also really taking that step back and recognizing those warning signs, because there are warning signs, but a lot of us just kind of pass through the power Check Engine, right? It's the check engine light that you say could wait another day, and then the check engine light turns into the next one, and and so on down the line, which I think is, it's curious. Now, you know, when I look at the and I always like, I want to just do the crpm Clinical Research Project Management Association and the work that you do today. How? How do you see that? Well, I guess just tell us a little bit more about the the association. Before I start asking, you know, some super granular questions here, why don't you just kind of give a little bit of an overview of what you guys do, what that, what the mission is of the association, and then we can get into to a little bit more of the the granular aspects there, too. Yeah, absolutely. So talking about my passions. I every place I went to, I really tried to do project management training after I was a coordinator, whenever I became a certified project manager, and it was wild. Like I didn't even know I was a project manager all those years, until I read the definition of a project manager and a project and I was like, You kidding me right now? Like there's actually methodology for what I'm doing, and it's not just fly by the seat of my pants. So after I learned that, and I started applying those things in my job, I started teaching my co workers, and I would go to like, the management team and be like, Hey, can we do a webinar? Hey, can we do it in person at a staff meeting, just to show them, like, the things that I really liked that had been saving me time and sanity. So that's kind of what the Association does, but it also builds community. And I'm loving seeing so many others right now building communities within clinical research, because so much of what we do is about connection and about you know, who you know. And it's not really like a clicky kind of thing, but it's more of like, it's such a small industry that we have to get out there and talk to people, so that way we can, you know, continue to grow and learn. So we do a lot of webinars. We do in person, trainings. We speak at conferences all around project management, management, but also at conferences like for instant Magi, instance Magi, last year, they allowed me to do two yoga classes. At the first, at the beginning of two of the days, because I'm a certified yoga instructor, which that was part of, I went and did that last year to be able to offer that to our members as well to my mindfulness breathing exercises and yoga, just because, again, it's so much about the self care aspect and ways that we can incorporate that into our busy lives. So crpm is really dedicated to, you know, bringing together the project management community. Because, in my opinion, 99.999% of us, I'm going to give I'm going to let them have that point 00, 1% but all of us are project managers and and that's every in everyday life. So a project has a beginning and end and objectives to meet. So raising kids is a project, right? You're beginning they're born, or they're adopted, or they come into your life. Your objectives are that you really want to make sure that they survive and they don't end up in jail, right? You want to get them through high school and off the payroll, and then the end is that that end right there, right? Or they're coming off the payroll, and they're out of high school or college, and so if you think about it, so much of our life is project management. You know, I just recently did a renovation that was project management. And I really think it's important to have those conversations and just bring about that conversation, because most of us in this field science majors, Nursing majors, doctors, right? We're not soft skills. Aren't really our forte, right? Some of us started in the lab, and I don't know about you, but I started in the lab, and I was real awkward for a long time after that, because all I had were my like, bacteria samples, and that's about it. And to call out, I don't think you are I don't think you are awkward anymore. So I'd be curious to know what that was like. But you did. You did hit on something there the personal and professional that blend between the two. And you know, one of the other guests that I've had on on the show before, Brooke page Thompson, who is the president at Velocity advisory group, is also a certified yoga instructor and is very big into just mental well being at work. And there's this blend of, okay, I am a project manager at work, and I have this study, and I'm doing X, Y and Z, but I'm also raising two kids. Or I am, you know, planning a wedding, or planning X, Y and Z, and there's all of this stress around being both personal and professional, not to mention, you know, eating healthy and trying to keep the house and, you know, all these different things. And I think a lot of times, you know, even when I'm saying it, I know that somebody could be listening to this and, gosh, you know, like they're they're shrugging it away. There's still that kind of stigma around the topic of mental health, what role employers have, what role employees have. And one of the things that you said in the very beginning was, you know, at the end of the day, the employer is still going to be looking at the the dollars and the results. So you as the employee, as the individual, have to have autonomy. You have to know those signs. You have to you have to be able to recognize them. You have to be able to demand what you need. Um, I'm kind of rambling here, and I promised I would ask a bad podcast question. But I'm just curious in terms of, like, when you think about that, and the blend between personal and professional, and we talk about the association and tie it in with, like, breaking this stigma within the industry, especially an industry that puts so much emphasis on outcomes, how the hell do we do it right? Like, what you know I mean, like, for lack of a better term, Jess, what are your thoughts when I say all of that? No, absolutely, you're 1,000% correct. And that's really a big part of crpm. You know, in our mission statement, it says that we want project crpms clinical research project managers. Doesn't matter about your job title. Let me just say that now I don't care what your job title is if you manage any portion of that project. So if you work on a research study. If you recruit patients, any of that kind of thing, you're a project manager. So our goal is to empower clinical research project managers to see themselves as whole individuals, not just a means to an end for project delivery, because that's what they really that's what companies see us as. We're numbers. So trying to then start that conversation, and having a space, holding that space for the conversation, and, like I said, healing out loud, and encouraging others to then talk about it with their co workers, with their friends, with their family, because it is such a stigma. But it's health care. You know, we are literally developing drugs for it, like, why can't we talk about it? Right? You know what I mean, it's just so fascinating. And I kind of did a study, my own little study, right? Because, you know, I'm a little researcher, um, I posted about my mental health journey, right? And on it was in like May, and I got so much backlash. I got tons of backlash, but I also had, okay, I say, I got tons of. Backlash, but in but in contradiction to that, I also got tons of support, and the support is what kept me going, but the backlash is what kept me off of LinkedIn for about six months after that happened, because I was scared to say anything, and but from there, oh gosh, I forgot where I was even going with this. Oh, okay, I'm sorry, my study. And then I had a hysterectomy due to missed doctor's appointments that following December. So I posted about my hysterectomy too. And you know what? Even though that's a women's health thing, and you would think it was pretty personal, I got no backlash. I got only support. I was shocked, but I also expected it right where I posted about mental health and then I posted about physical health, yeah, and it wasn't stigmatized. And I'm like, we all have brains. There's chemistry within our brains that we have to monitor and understand. And workplace trauma is a thing, and workplace PTSD is also a thing, and we have to look at it and recognize that everybody has mental health, even if you don't want to address it or not, you have a brain like, I'm sorry to break it to you. It's, it's so it's such an interesting perspective of it all. And I don't remember who posted this recently, but I saw it on LinkedIn, talking about how if you emailed and said, I've been throwing up, if you emailed and said You broke your ankle, oh my gosh, feel better. But if you emailed and said, guys, I feel like I am at the at my wit's end, and if I don't take today off, I might not want to come in on Monday, there's just instantaneous judgment, right? And I know that there is, and I always add this caveat whenever Brooke and I talk about talk about it, because I understand that there are people who are listening to this that are worried about people taking advantage of stuff. I promise you that if somebody has the bravery to send an email on a Friday morning or a Thursday morning and say, guys, I am I'm at zero in my tank. They are not doing it to take advantage of you, right? Like, that's, that's, that's not happening. There are, there are checks and balances that we can put in place where, of course, you still have to do your job. You have to work hard. We have to be good for the profits. As I look up to this guy, right, like the corporate overlords, I get it. We want to be good for patients and and the end result that we can create. But there are checks and balances that we can put in place to be able to to have this and for it to be acceptable. And I think, you know, you and I, you mentioned it just even this being a podcast. I don't think three years ago, I would have had the audacity to to record this full episode, and the title of it's going to be something along the lines of mental health in the clinical research industry. You know, like that is a pretty aggressive, aggressive topic, but I think that it's becoming more and more acceptable by the day. And I hope that 2025, is just another, you know, ladder, another rung on the ladder that we're climbing as part of it, too. Absolutely, yeah. And it's so fascinating to see, like other industries, and how they handle it, because it's some other industries, like if you go to conferences and other industries, I don't know if you've experienced this with conferences you've gone to, but they actually have, like, sensory areas where it's just like you can go and sit in silence If you're overwhelmed, or if you just need a quiet moment, like little things like that that we can incorporate into our industry. And I totally understand what you mean about people taking advantage of it, but I think the way we approach it is the way is wrong, to be completely honest, we avoid it, right? We all avoid it, and we just kind of push it down. But in my opinion, if somebody sends that email to their manager, their manager should schedule a one on one and ask them how they're doing. Yeah, yeah. Ask, what? What harm does it do to ask, you know what I mean, like, if you don't want somebody taking advantage of it, how about you care enough to make sure that they're okay? That should be the number one priority. It shouldn't be worried about them taking advantage, or they are sick leave or any Yeah, yeah. It should be. Are my employees okay? Is because we're all humans. We all have personal lives, and 99% of the time we don't know what's going on in my coworker, co workers personal life. They could be going through something horrible, and then they have work stress on top of it, just having conversations like it's if you want to call a work your work, people work family. Treat them like family. You know they mean, don't treat them like a means to an end. Well, and I you use the word community a couple of times, and that's the word that we use at SCORR, you know, 95% of the time, it's the word that I really believe in is, you know, we were talking about families beforehand, but, you know, I have a weird and convoluted, you know, blended family and so, like, the word family doesn't. Associate the same way for every other person and so community, I think just fits really, really good. But one of the things that you said that I really like is the just asking and just communicating. And I also one of the things that I learned from my experience when I and this is actually when I was still at the Journal Star as a journalist, and you said there was like a grieving period, like I have tattooed on my on my arm, democracy dies in darkness, which is the Washington Post decree, because I I love journalism. If I could live and exist in the world, journalism would be my thing, but it drives me to to the end, right? And I just can't do it. But what I didn't realize was I blamed maybe people, but I also never told anyone, right? And so, like so, much of this comes back to what you said earlier on, which is, like, you have to own this in you, and I can't read your mind. Jess, right? Like, so if I ask you how you're doing, and I it's a yeah, a lot of times you get into a meeting, oh, how was your weekend? And you say, Oh, it was fine. You know, then okay, I probably move on, because, again, we are in this, like, fast paced back and forth. And you know, when I came back from the Christmas break, we had a pretty important meeting on on this past Thursday, and I, like, had to raise my hand, be like, before we start. I don't want to be an asshole. Let's just do five minutes. How did, how was everybody's break? Like, did? Everybody did? Everybody was healthy, no hospital stints. And then let's jump in. And it felt weird, but it was like, I just wanted to make sure that we see each other as human beings before getting into this work thing, because at the end of the day, that's, that's what we are, it's, it's all human to human connection. You know, 1,000% no, absolutely. And I love your tattoo, and I love that you, even though stepping away from that aspect, you are still doing parts of things that you love, like this podcast, yeah, I just love it like you're still following your passion and but doing it in a mindful way and in a way that is sustainable for your mental health and for your family, yeah, and I think that that's really cool, but yeah, it's, I mean, how simple just to have, and that's what I used to do with my team meetings. Have a five minute thing before we get started, and just have that conversation of, okay, how are you guys doing? Is there anything that you need to bring up, and before you get into agenda topics. Because again, if your people feel like they mean something to you and like that you care, they're gonna perform so much better. Like yeah, I promise you, they will perform better, and they will then be more open to communicating, and exactly if they feel safe in it? Yeah, I would say also you were kind of blaming yourself for not speaking up. But my question is, did you feel safe enough to speak up? You know what I mean? And if we that's on the employers to provide those spaces where your employees do feel safe and they don't feel like, you're gonna get they're gonna get fired for saying they have anxiety or for anything like that, like, that's not okay, you know what I mean? And that's a good point, yeah. So I would say not. I mean, I understand absolutely, taking a look back and self reflecting, but also reflecting on the environment. Was the environment safe? Was it a hostile environment? Was it something that you could even bring up those things, because you probably couldn't, couldn't, and that's the case for those places, which I think, you know, I promised before we hit record, that we had an outline and that we were going to run all over the place, and we have, but I do think it that, you know, one of the questions that we wanted to talk about is, you know, in within clinical research, specifically, how can organizations and leaders help, from their end, break the stigma? And I do think you know, in terms of promoting a healthier workforce, work, workplace, so much of it starts with that space, and you know, having an environment and a culture and a community that does feel safe and engaging, and that there is that back and forth. But is there anything that we haven't talked about within that role from the top down, that organizations inside the industry can do, sure. And I would say, you know, not everybody experiences depression, anxiety, panic, not everybody does. But if you're one of the lucky ones who don't educate yourself on it, because I feel like that's part of the stigma, is the few people who don't experience any, any of that, which, oh my gosh, the amount of money I would pay. Yeah, and this in this economy right now, like I that's, it's rarer and rarer by the day, right, right, right, but there are so those few and or they just want to admit it to themselves, right? But as a leader, you should be leading in a way that the other individual, that the people that you lead, want to be like you, and they want to they look up to you, and you want to be a positive influence in their lives. So learn about it, learn about those, that thing that whatever illness that your employee may have, because you would probably do the same if they had a physical injury or if they had a physical diagnosis, and just learning about it, but also creating that space. Starting out your one on ones with how are you doing? Is there anything I can do to support. You and making it safe. It's because you can't enter a conversation blaming or like, like we talked about earlier, like, Oh, you took Friday off for a mental health day. Were you really anxious? You know, I'm out on it. You know, you just said something there. I'm sorry to cut you off, but no, you said something there, and we talk about all the time is, if you don't do it as a leader, your team won't do it right. And so that communication both ways, you taking a day off, like you not having your phone on vacation, you do it, you leaving at 431 day to go watch your kids game. Like if you do those things, then the the employees will do it, but if the employees see you emailing at 845, at night, one year in Hawaii on vacation, it's going to lead to a immense stress, and it's going to cause them to feel the same way. And that's not It's not repeatable, and it's certainly not something that has longevity to towards it either, right? Oh, I absolutely agree. And what you just said, that was one of the biggest gut punches I ever had in therapy. Was me saying to you know, my therapist about how I they because it was really good conversation of, how do you treat your employee, or how do you treat your team? I don't like using the word employees. That's a horrible word. How do you treat your team? And if they were in your position, what would you say to them? And I was like, I would say all these things. And they were she was like, but what do you do? How do you show them that? And she and I was like, but I want to support them. And she's like, you're not supporting them by working yourself to death. You're not supporting them by sending emails at midnight. You're not supporting them that way. You're actually giving them unrealistic expectations, because they see you doing this so they think it's expected of them. Yeah. And one thing that I that's another thing that I think leaders can really benefit from hearing as well, but also one thing that I really like is that I saw on, I don't even know where at this point, but on the signature line, it says something about you may be receiving this email after hours. I have Yes, but it isn't. This is the time that I work best, and I expect you to work at the time that you work best. It is not the expectation that you work at the same times I do. And I just love that, because it's so true, like, some people just work really good at the end of the day, and that's fine, but don't set that expectation for your team or accidentally set that expectation. Yeah, a lot of times it's an accidental expectation. And I get into it, you know, I one of the questions that I ask anybody on my team and anybody that I really work with is just, when do you like working? And that's such a, like, I'm laughing, but it's like, such a, it's kind of a woke question, right? Like, you know, in terms of it, but it's like, no actually, if, if we're in this remote world, or in this hybrid world, and you tell me that from 6am until 10am You are an absolute rock star that I want you on from 6am to 10am if that means you have to go to the gym. Like, of course, things come and clients come and you have to do those things. But for me, I am really good before 5am like, there are days where I can just wake up and just be in a groove. My wife's still asleep. I put on this hoodie that she hates, and I call it I literally, like, put it on and it's like, I'm going into, like, a different personality, and I can just lay on the couch, put my headphones on, and I can work non stop until I need to get up and go to the restroom or eat. And I adore it. If somebody told me, like, Hey, you're not allowed to work, then it would like the the shift in my personality, or if, if somebody told me, Hey, you can work then, but you still have to log eight to five nor like I would not be able to to hang on the way that I do. And so understanding that about yourself, but then understanding that about your team, your colleagues, hey, this is, this is information that I want to learn about you, because I care enough to learn about it. I care enough to make sure that you're on the same page with me too. Absolutely no, that's so true. And I love this whole officer ego that you have. It's a real it's been years. It's been it has been a decade plus of this hoodie, and it's the empowering that your wife also hates it. So you get to put it on when you're not awake, correct? And, like, she wakes up and she's like, oh shit, he's been wearing that hoodie for the last five hours. I'm not going to talk to Yes, exactly, exactly, right? Should I be concerned? That's amazing. But with that, I will say something I've heard a lot from people, is that, and I experienced it too. Was especially like in clinical operations, because that's my background, and I'm sure it happens in others as well, but in clinical operations, we're stuck on so many freaking meetings. When do I get my work done? Like and I've I finally went to my boss and I said, Okay, these hours like you are these hours. Hours for me, it's about like 7am to noon. These are the best hours for me to block off for work, for focus time, because that's when my brain is freshest. And I hate having meetings first thing in the morning, because if I start with external and not being able to do anything, my to do list is screwed up. It's gone. There's no way. And I know this about myself, some people may work opposite, that's fine, but people, and I've, I've experienced it as well, I will be like, Can I can I block my calendar from 8am to noon just for focus time? And they're like, Absolutely not. And it's like, okay, but how do you expect me to get my job done? Because I'm literally in meetings from eight till five, and there's no time to actually work, and all I get is more action items, and then I'm stuck working overtime that I'm not getting paid for because I'm salary. And y'all do that on purpose. You know what I mean? Like, come on, and I will argue, and I listen, I've had a couple of drag out arguments about this, and I get, again, urgency comes, like somebody calls in, there's a there's a fire, all the things, sure, but if you're telling me that I'm setting my calendar for the month of February, right now, if Monday, Wednesday and Friday, I set my calendar from eight to noon, and we worked meetings around that, and I was able to be utterly productive from eight to noon. One, I'm happier. Two, our clients are happier. And three, you're happier as the business, there's no like, when people argue against that, it it does drive me crazy, because that is something that should be so simple. And if it's communicated properly, and it's heard and like actually listened to properly, then it should be something that we should be able to achieve together 1,000% and honestly, it would help others too, like, if we could just even company wide, yeah? I mean, and I get it like, I get that there's going to be meetings that only this person can only attend at this time, right? But they should be rare, yeah, we should have set times where we could actually get work done, because how else are we going to get work done? Because it's, I feel like this causes so many issues, right? It causes quality issues, it causes patient safety issues, it causes, it causes so many issues, protocol amendments, all these kind of things that if we add, if we planned and we organized ourselves in our lives and our work lives in a way that was, you know, contributing to our well being and to the well being of our work, then we would have so much we would save so much money. And isn't that what the companies want? You know what I mean? Like? I mean the amount of protocol deviations and, you know, quality issues and everything that I personally have seen or had to be a part of because I just didn't have time to do anything. It's insanity, and it's so frustrating from the perspective of somebody who is involved in clinical research, because you we all know you don't get in this industry unless you're passionate, because it's a lot of work, and to be that passionate in our from our perspective, I feel like a lot of us, patient safety is number one, but from our stakeholders, it's money, and that's not okay, you know what I mean. So where's the disconnect, and when does that happen that we quit caring about patient safety as we start making more money, or where your rank is in the industry? It's so wild. Jess, you just opened, you opened the second podcast in 2025 because that's, that's a whole other. That's a whole other. Can there. But I it's a, it's a really interesting again, it goes back to the dichotomy of being a human being and having profits, right? And that's a that's a very relevant conversation in in 2025 but I do have one. I've got one final question for you, and then I'll get you out of here, I promise, at the top of the hour. And this has been so helpful. I think there's gonna be a lot of learnings in here, but let's say somebody's listening to this. They're in the clinical research space, and they're worried that they're maybe at stage two or stage three of burnout. What is some advice that you would leave them with? You know, if they're listening to this and you have the opportunity to speak to them, what would you leave them with? I would definitely say scheduling rest or scheduling time away from your desk. One thing that I always like to do is start my meetings on the 15 minute mark. So especially because, you know a lot of people, if you're able to schedule your own meetings or schedule meetings for your team starting at that 15 minute mark, because their previous meeting probably ended on the hour, that gives everybody 15 minutes to regroup, go to the bathroom, get some food, get some water, walk away from their desk. So those kind of things, little thick tweets like that, the 15 minute scheduling a 15 minute break every few hours, if you don't do that, you know. And then also walking away from your desk at lunch. I don't care what you do, but don't. Don't you dare eat your desk your lunch at death. Eat your lunch at your desk. Let me try that again, because you there's just so you need to take the time away. Your brain is going to be fresher if you can incorporate a walk in your day. There's so much science that shows how much better your brain. Behaves and acts whenever you go outside and take a walk and just little things like that, that it may seem so tiny, or it may seem just silly or unnecessary and a waste of time, I guarantee you, you're going to feel a lot better if you take maybe three or four breaks. You know what I mean? I mean even like smoke breaks, right? Like mental health breaks, is what I always like to call them. But, you know, some people take smoke breaks or whatever. But think about that. Think about what your co workers who do smoke, they get that break. So why aren't you getting that break? Why aren't you walking away and just taking that time? You won't have to smoke. You can just go sit and check your phone, you can sit in silence. I mean, I'm a big fan of that Carmel cheddar cheese popcorn, that is my break snack, that is my treat. And I always realize, like, especially, I've tried to do it, like, after, like, a really Power Hour kind of thing. Like, if I get through this, I get my reward. Yeah, I'm not against bribery. I'm not. Sometimes it's sometimes it's needed. And I think I have this note, I have this little sticky right above my computer that says you can walk away anytime. And it's not meant to be like, this grandiose thing. It's just meant to be like, hey, if I get up and I walk for five minutes, it will be better when I come back. And it's so interesting because we spent 45 minutes talking about how big this problem is and how massive it feels at times, but on a day to day basis, it's not, you know, buying a van and living in Idaho. It's not moving to Austria. It's getting up and taking a walk. It's scheduling minutes at the 15 it's it's actually eating lunch. It's doing those little things that can make a big difference. And then I think the last thing that I'm going to say on this, for the advice, if someone's listening to this as we wrap up here, is talk to talk to people in the industry. I kid you not. 30 plus guests. Now, every one of them has, in one way, shape or form, mentioned, the community within the industry, the network within the industry, the feelings around it, being able to have confidence and say, Hey, I'm feeling the stress right now. Or you too, yeah, I actually am. It's been a tough month, like you will feel much better within that. And so reach out and have those conversations too, right? And open up, you know, if you I don't, I mean, I feel like I'm a great example of that, of like, that's really where I kind of started with bringing up, or starting my association and my own business was just talking and being real and being genuine and having those conversations. And don't be afraid to say to ask people, How are you doing really? Because and just listening like the power, the power of listening, is so huge as well, and listening with that intent to listen not to respond, especially managers and leaders, listening with the intent to listen not to respond, because you need to hear your employees. You need to understand what's happening, and you don't want them to feel like they are just a means to an end for delivery, because they're not going to work as hard as somebody would if they feel like they are genuinely cared for and that you care about their physical, mental health or family, all those kind of things. And like you said, our community is so amazing and it's so empowering, and I love seeing the shift that's happening. Because, like you said, I don't think either of us would have dared to record this three years ago. And how much fun was it? You know, it really worked out for us. So I Jess, this is, this has been absolutely fantastic. I can already see you hopping on another podcast with us, and especially in our don't or we have a series that's, you know, get unstuck, and we talk about just different ways to to survive and to thrive and define what well being in the industry. And so thank you so much for for taking time out of this Friday. As I mentioned, this is the first episode that we recorded in 2025 we start off the year with a fantastic listen that I know people will get a lot out of. And as you're listening, if you are like, gosh, I want to talk to Jess, I know if you reach out to her on LinkedIn, you'll be at scope. Is that correct? Jess, where else can people find you at the beginning parts of this year? Yeah, I will be at scope. I will be at the clinical research billing and compliance conference. Great. And that one, we're doing, Barbie again. I don't know about if you I'm a big fan of doing out of the box things at conferences, because that's the best way to learn. Yeah, it's memorable. So scope, that one Magi I'm looking at my calendar. SOS the Middle East, North Africa summit and Houston. I'm sure there's more that I'm forgetting, but those are the ones that are at the top of my mind. So I'll read all those. Yeah, I'm sure, I'm sure a bug on LinkedIn. Reach out. Certainly. Follow. Jess, on LinkedIn, it's a fantastic follow. Lot of good conversation. Saw you post today about founder Friday looking all cozy on a Friday morning, which is the way before the dog came in and beat in the room. Oh, no, that was actually end of day yesterday. Okay, okay, so I love it. I love it. Well. Jess, thank you so much. I appreciate you joining and for everybody listening to another episode of The SCORR cast, we appreciate you. Thank you so much, Alec. I hope you have a wonderful rest evening. As always. Thank you for tuning in to this episode of The SCORR cast, brought to you by SCORR Marketing. We appreciate your time and hope you found this discussion insightful. Don't forget to subscribe and join us for our next episode. Until then, remember, marketing is supposed to be fun.