Translation | One Overlooked Aspect of Life Science Marketing

Join Karen Tkaczyk as she explores the critical role of translation in the life sciences industry. From bridging language barriers in clinical trials to ensuring regulatory compliance, discover how expert translation drives innovation, accessibility, and global impact in healthcare.

Transcript

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Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of The SCORR cast as I am talking right now. It is January 3 of 2025 which means this is only the second episode that I've recorded in 2025 and I am so excited to have Karen with me today. Karen, I I'm so excited for this conversation for a plethora of reasons, one being that we've already recorded a podcast together on the visa tech Life Sciences platform where we talked a lot about some of these similar topics. And I know we're going to get into a whole plethora of things, from your background to multilingual communications to translation, and how that all impacts from a marketing perspective, from a sales perspective, and also selfishly, because I feel like you and I have very similar energies ever since we met back at at DIA in June, you know, six, seven months ago now, where we were supposed to talk for like, seven to 10 minutes, and I think I had a flight, and you had another meeting, and then we did that thing where it was like, Hey, let's wrap up. And it was 20, 3040, minutes later. And then we're going in our different directions. So before I start rambling even even further, Karen, thank you so much for for joining. And, you know, being on this episode of this SCORR cast, I think there's going to be a lot of good that comes from it. And I also just want to toss the microphone to you to have you kind of introduce yourself and give us a little bit about your background, about visa tech. And then, you know, maybe you know a little bit about what you're passionate about, and then we'll go from there. Well, thank you, Alec, this is a lovely way to start, to start 2025 at work. You've gotta come back to work. Let's bring the energy and have a chat with Alec. Bucha, so I am Karen Tkaczyk. I am talking to you all today out of the Denver Metro. I live in Colorado, and the accent is from Ayrshire in Scotland. I just like to get that out the way at the beginning so people aren't wondering for the next half hour where, whether I'm well, where I'm from? So yes, I grew up in Scotland. I loved chemistry and I loved learning languages, and I always wondered how I could blend them as a career. Ended up being a chemist, studying chemistry, working in the pharmaceutical industry, but I did well, the sort of I got a French minor that'd be the US way of or a double major with French, I suppose you would say. And I worked in France and met somebody who is has my husband of more than 25 years now. So I'm a bilingual person, bilingual bicultural person. And I've worked in pharma in France and in Ireland, and also in the US once we moved here, basically, speaking of so we moved to the US in the late 90s. I moved to us as a young married couple go off for an adventure Lake Tahoe. So fabulous, right? But hardly our life sciences, you know, hot bed, so there wasn't a lot. So we've got in on my husband's visa as a software engineer. And then I did find work in a medical device company, wound gels and the like, topical medical devices. So it was formulation chemistry. So I got, I did some of that, but then I we had our first child, and that company went bust. Unrelated, but at the same time, and I ended up being in the middle of Northern Nevada, wondering what I could do. So I had two more children, and then discovered the world of translation, and discovered that translators have to be subject matter experts, and I happened to be a subject matter expert in the pharmaceutical industry, medical devices, cosmetics. I had worked in labs for a long time by that time, and I was bilingual with French English, and I was a pretty decent writer in English, so I became a freelance translator so that so I set myself up and I was self employed, and I did that for the whole time of having kids. Really, it was a marvelous career, one of those flexible careers that you could never planned. Ran my own ran my own business, and I broadened my understanding of of many areas of life sciences, I translated millions of words, everything from patents on mascara. I know more about mascara than anyone who's not a mascara formulator should ever know to to tattoo ink for to. To inform consent forms and instructions for use, you know. So you name it, I've seen it and I've translated it, or I've edited it, or I've fixed the sort the English language content before it was translated into other languages. So I'm a that that little girl who loved chemistry and loved other languages did manage to create a career that combined both and then the pandemic coincided with me becoming, or about to become, an empty nester, and that's when I moved into the broader language services space. Became employed again by a global language services company, and then after a couple of years with one, I moved to VISTA tech, where I've been for a while now. And this detect, I lead sales for our life sciences business unit. We do sell into what, well, any vertical, you might say, but we have a split off, separated life scientists business units so well for for a number of reasons, including Quality Management System reasons, and, and, and I speak chemistry, I speak biotech, I speak I can speak to who I'm talking to, and I, and I understand the multilingual communication piece intimately. So that's me. I love it. And you said, No better way, if you have to come back to work, than than talking with me. And I feel the same way, just like, ready, ready and ready to go and fire it up. I always joke on on the podcast that, you know, it actually just turns into us complimenting each other for like, the first 10 minutes as we're as we're getting ready, as we're getting ready to do this. But I am interested, you know, I think at SCORR we recognize that, that the industry has no borders, right? And so when we think of this, we really see it as that the global landscape, and there's no way around it. However, when you think about marketing, or you think about any of the plethora of items that you just mentioned, in terms of you translating, you don't necessarily instantly go to multilingual communication. You don't necessarily instantly go to translation. And so one of the questions that kind of wanted to bring to the table is just, frankly, right out of the gate. Like, why is it so important to just get this right? You know, like, right out of the gate, let alone, did I think about it in time? But why is it so important to get it right? Well, they really. Short answer here is that a translation mistake can kill Yeah, in life sciences, right? There's no room for error in some life sciences situations. So we can consider the obvious, like dosages on a drug label, or instructions for using a medical device, or instructions for using or the instructions on the mobile app for the remote monitoring, you know, in a decentralized clinical trial that an at home treatment situation, people are entering the data point. So there's obvious that's very obvious, right? We can all see how, because we know how a mistake in the English, or whatever our own native language is, we know how mistaken the English could cause a serious problem, a risk to license life and limb. So just, just transfer that to to somebody whose English is broken or has no English at all, it becomes that that's the very obvious, fundamental, foundational reason for needing multilingual, multilingual communications equal a quality translation can truly alter the quality of life, and the reverse is true. So you can, and you can, as I answer that, right, your marketing agency, right at SCORR, you can immediately see that what a mark homes team and a life sciences company needs might not be the same as what a clean ops team or a quality team or a regulatory team sees. They're all seeing different pieces of that puzzle, right? And some people are in the life and limb area more than others, yeah. Well, and you said something there that it really it instantly stuck with me, which is, again, it goes back to the individual that is being impacted, right? And it's, it's the patient, it's the end user, and I think, and I'm gonna, I'll just be, I'll be vulnerable here, in terms of how, before you and I started talking a couple of months ago about this in more detail, like thinking about translation. I was never associating that at that level, right? It was more of the nice to have, right? And oh, you're going to go out of your way to do it. And then we start talking about, not only just completely different languages. But someone who's got broken English, broken Spanish, and then you talk about different cultures and the lack of opportunity, the lack of education that happens at the end of the day, that's that's hurting the patient. And as we talk about patient centricity, when we talk about that being the model and the reason why anybody wants to get into this field. This is at the forefront, the crux of all of that. It sure is. I mean, you're a communicator, right? You know how important it is for for for any content to resonate right with the person it's with its audience, whatever that audience is. So just imagine how it needs to resonate, and that you're thinking globally. You said, our business has no borders. So how's your, how's your beautifully flowing marketing content that somebody spent hours and hours and hours on going to look at, if it's been through, you know, Google Translate or something else into Japanese and Arabic and Hebrew and and and who knows what else you know? What's your confidence level that it's going to resonate with your, with your with your patient, with anyone well, and I think about it in just in terms of when I you know, I think you are going to be episode 40 of this podcast, and we've talked to anybody and everybody within the clinical research space, from like super, super medical writing to logistics to research associates all over the board, and everybody talks about that there is a lack of education around clinical research, and there's a lack of education about Wealth, or about health and wealth and all of these things combined. And, you know, it's such an easy, you know, like you said, it's the obvious answer, but it's such an interesting way to boil this down in terms of, if we don't have the right communication, then the education around it, the education around the services, around clinical trial and SCORR, it's just not going to work, right? It's not going to work, yeah, we saw massive growth in the in the USA, the DEI movement generally has, has brought, has driven growth in the US market. For US residents as driven growth and translation, right? Because people are realizing that if they want to bring in, for instance, diverse participants to trials in some of the major cities of the US, they're going to need three or four other languages other than Spanish. Let's say Spanish is a given, typically in the US, but suddenly you're in a certain city, and Arabic and Hmong become important, and in another city you're going to want Japanese, Chinese and Korean and and, and suddenly having translation even within the US. We're not talking about doing global business. We're not talking about global clinical trials or global pharma or med Dev, you know, operations, yeah, just that narrow world of clinical trials. Even, you know, there's massive, massive amounts of translation and, and, I mean, there's, this is regulated. You know, an IRB exists to protect patients. And, you know the IRBs check, we have to, have to make sure that the translations of the informed consent forms or the like are fair and not burdened. You know that there's no no, I forget the exact wording that's used in the in your regulation, but that's to make sure things aren't more burdensome than they need be, right? Yeah, and plain language, in the native language of the person you're trying to get to participate, is a starting point. Yeah, I love it. I love it. And it's a good segue, because we talk about starting point, and then I kind of talked about the nice to have. And I think one of the things that that we had talked about before is that it's, it's, it's not a commodity, right? It often can be treated as one. And I'm kind of curious, from your perspective, but also for VISTA tech, you know, how do you approach it differently? How do we look at, you know, some of the cultural nuances and the technical quality, what, what is, what is, what is, come to mind there, right? So, so translation is sometimes treated transactionally, especially by the by the clients, not by the providers, right? Those of us in the business under know what its value is. So one of the issues, I think, one of the root causes of that, is that we've often charged per word as an industry traditionally, and that can give everything a sort of commoditized, transactional feel. And of course, there are lower end transactional providers in any market, right? They're going to be or even not lower end. They can be expensive, but they can still be transactional rather than value add and extensions of your team. So. So I sometimes I get people who are asked me for a price per word as a starting point to a conversation. And always, that's not how we work, right? I always take a step back talk about value, and we explore good fit, and we go from there, right? You, you know, in any market there's a full range of providers, so you need another question often, that people often ask me is, is how AI and then machine learning and the like are affecting translation and to can't ai do it these days? And the answer is, well, if you have no if you don't care about risk, then sure, but, but we're a bit risk averse industry, right? So the only area where the example I like to give is that if you've got a chat bot in your corporate website, sure, we can use AI to translate your chat bots, Q and A, that'll be fine. But you know, you look up and you how much you investing in your mark homes, content in your late in your marketing campaigns, let's at the very least have a machine translation and a professional editing and proofreading and polishing that that would be the absolute least you'd want for anything of value, of any significant value for the company. And then you go up to mission critical situations where you just need multiple, uh, well trained, credentialed linguists doing the work they bring the cultural nuance chat. GPT can't handle the cultural nuance. They don't know if you're if you need a formal register in that country when you talk about a certain kind of topic, or you talk to a certain kind of person, or an informal register, or or all the things that we know that machines can't do, and so the transactional piece tends to go along with AI these days. That's something that we're just it's an alignment, right? Yes, you can save money, but how much risk are you willing to add here? So yeah, it's, yeah, I'm so glad you went down the AI pathway. And, you know, it's almost like lighting a flame and seeing who is upset and who isn't about that conversation. And I was, I was in a call this morning just with a couple within the industry, and we were talking all about AI, and there's now a lot of these organizations that are doing the AI podcast, which is, it's a platform called notebook, and you can upload thoughts, and then they will actually create a man and a woman, man and man to whatever it is. And conversation. They watched one conversation, yeah, I've watched one. It's It's so interesting as I don't want to consider, I don't consider myself the anti AI, but I also am not the like, let's go and do that. All I have to say about that is, at no point am I going to listen to a podcast with an with two AI hosts. I just I won't be able to do it. And if you ask me, Why are you and I recording this right now? One human connection and authenticity, transparent, transparency, but also it's because you're the thought leader. It's because some people, for whatever reason, consider me a thought leader sometimes, and we go back and forth, but having that be an uploaded document to notebook, and they spew out, you know, their version of it, it, it's one, it stings a little bit. But two, I'm, I don't think I'm comfortable with the the aspect of is the information, right? You talk about the risk averse nation, no, you know, notion, but even just the quality of the content. And so for me, what I like circled in that question, in your answer, is that transactional part, and what VISTA tech does differently, frankly, to me, when I hear that, is just to not treat it like a vendor, to not treat it like a transaction, and to give it the gravity or the weight that it, that it deserves, you know, am I, is is that a fair? Yeah, absolutely, yes. Plus, we handle the complexity. It's really complex, yeah, getting it done right, right? I mean, and you need everybody. I mean, there are occasional life sciences companies who choose to handle translation in house, right? I could name a handful, I think, a single hand, possibly, of big players who who handle translation internally. It takes massive investment and and as some of us, some of us want to do everything, and that's great, and others of us niche down and do something really well, right? And this detect handles, translation, localization, the related, the multimedia, all sorts of global content creation really well. That's what we do. It's our job to get that bit right. And we're, I think we become an extension of the team for. For all the for the clients where we have, you know, you use once you're established, you're a solid program, and suddenly you become just a fundamental part of the way that they do business. They bring you in earlier and earlier, right? We all know what it is to be brought in at the end of a process where we should have been brought in earlier, yeah, to work out the kinks to make sure there's good, seamless technology, seamless workflows, all the things that all the problems you can you you can prevent from happening if you just have a few conversations up front rather than throwing something over the wall at the end. We all know what it is to do value, value added business with a partner we like to work with, and to do transactional business with, someone who just, you know, I you, they ping you when they need you, clearly, even responsive when, when you're trying to get ahead of things. Yeah, we, I often refer to it as, like, the Kinko's print shop. Here it, you know, it's like, we're not, we're not a Kinkos, we're not a staples. It's not the easy button, you know, and, and if that's what you're looking for, that's okay. There is a mismatch on that. And I think you kind of started going down this pathway, and I've ranted on a LinkedIn video once or twice about best practices. And, you know, are they best practices for a reason, or are they best practices because maybe we are just doing it to do it type of deal. But I think in a lot of these areas, especially with things like this, there's, there's that checklist of like, okay, if we're going to go forward with with translation, if we're going to go forward and we're doing this across multiple languages, we need to make sure we're we have the checks and balances in place. And so for lack of a better terms for the sound bite, if you will, Karen, what are some of those best practices that companies should be whether, again, we're talking on the mark, on side, or if we're talking, you know, yeah, yeah. Angles. What are some of those areas that we should yeah? So there's a couple of fundamental ones that cross all the domains, if you like. So how about the quality of your source documents? So let's say you're assuming we're talking about US company. So a US English written document, is it well written? Is it written in plain language, where that's appropriate? Is it written for technical? Audience for a clinic, clinical audience for a patient, facing audience, we you how? How well is your written? How well is what you're producing. Okay, so that would, that would be the first best practice. We usually do a source con. Well, we always do some amount of source content analysis when we're, you know, starting up, establishing a new program and, well, sometime, well, you know, sometimes things aren't very well written. We know it when we see it, don't we so that, so establishing a really good technical writing, medical writing situation, and if you don't do it yourself, I mean, we can do that. We can polish source documents before they get sent out. Because when we look, we look at a document with an eye for what the likely problems are going to be, right? We can see potential issues in looking at something that somebody in your own company, you know, in CLIN ops, might not see. They might see something they might think. They might have thought plain language great. They've written something in plain language for a patient. They've written it at an eighth grade reading level, or whatever other guideline and style they might have assigned internally. That's great. And we might see something, and we might see, oh, well, that's that's going to spill over into into an extra page as soon as you translate it into this language. In this language, because there's expansion and be, you know, date formats, although very what you might call basics of localization, which is translated. We don't just translate the words. We translate for a locale. So you tell we call that localization so that, you know, so that piece thinking about the actual content that you're supposedly just sending us, and it's brilliantly going to be translated immediately, and there's going to be nothing that it's going to be perfection first time, right, right? So, so that would be one best practice, thinking about, thinking about that kind of thing, versioning. Versioning is best practices in business generally, I think. But so for let's use the example of a clinical trial. My colleague tells a horrible story. It's not happened to me, but one of my lovely colleagues here at VISTA tech, Johannes a lot of clinical accounts. She has an example of where changes had not been tracked in a. Be in documents that were for an amendment, and therefore they didn't get translated. The changes didn't get changed because it had not been tracked. They had been made in a document without being tracked, so it wasn't visible to for whatever system they were they were working with at that time. And I mean, how much does that cost? Yeah, that mistake. So, so that's, I mean, those, those are pretty basic, right? Those are nothing to do with the other language yet, right? Those are the fundamentals of getting your document systems organized and deciding what's what's in your content. And that's where you need to start. And then, of course, involve your translation partner early, make sure that the work, the technology that you're using, are completely compatible, and that you're going to be able to send things back and forth without having to, perhaps, deal with Word to files and email. Right? You're going to be you can send things automatically through through various technology systems. And that can often be best practices as you get established, because then there are ways of making sure things nothing falls through the cracks well and so much of that that you just kind of walked through you mentioned, it's on the basics, but it's also just on the foundation of having this be something that is repeatable over and over again, and having a process for it. And I promised that there would be at least one thing that you said that I took us off on a little bit of a tangent. And it did promise that, I promise, listen, I'm a man. I'm a man of my word on a Friday afternoon, and I know I'm the last thing standing between me and you having a weekend. And so I like, Listen, you know, I get it and and the people listening are hopefully enjoying this. But basics of localization, I just, I put a giant asterisk next to this, because it's not just the language, it is the culture. It's the actual locale in terms of where they are. And one of the things that you and I talked about on the Vista tech podcast was personalized insight versus just personalization and a little bit of that. And I'm maybe drawing out a couple of strings here, but to me, the difference between personalization and personalized insight kind of feels like the difference between translation and that localized translation. Where we're going. We're not just translating this with Google Translate. We're not just throwing it through AI, but we're actually taking the necessary steps from a culture standpoint, how they want to be talked to, who's talking to them. The parallel works in which, yes, so parallel works for lack of a for lack of a good question here, can you just talk a little bit more about that aspect of it from a localization standpoint, and what goes into that so you can think about date formats. It's a nice, easy one, right? Yeah, we all know. I mean, you and I have different accents. We probably mentally say our birthday is a different way, right? My in my head, my birthday is day, day, month, month, year, year. Yeah, right. Yours is the other way around. And I live in the USA, so I have to switch it, right? So assist localization is going to use the date format. So let's say you're, you're, you're selling into the EU. Let's say you're doing 23 languages. It's usually somewhere between 21 and 28 depending how many languages they do. But you're going to every all the date formats are going to work in the country. They might be year, year, year. Why? Why? Why? Why? MMD countries. They might be day, month, year, they might you get the idea, yeah, it's all going to be right. And the same goes for times. Do we use 24 hour clock? Do we use AM, PM, right? A metric measurements. Are we? Are we metric everywhere? What are we for? Temperatures? Are we Fahrenheit, everywhere? Are we Celsius everywhere? All that sort of fundamental units of measure existence. There's your there's a starting point, right, that you just imagine having to manually check all that, that would be a nightmare, right? Let's take it a step further. What about right to left languages? What if you're working you're translating into Arabic and Hebrew, and then we and Unicode languages, character based languages, rather than Roman alphabet languages or Slavic languages. You can see that the that, well, localization is going to get all the complexities related to those things right. It's going to, you're going you're just that. That's what a good partner is going to help, just sort for you. They're going to say, Okay, so that's not going to work for right to left language work are, are we going to reverse the photos? You know? Are we going to mirror? Are we going to flip everything for mirror image? Here? You might not have thought of that. There's other more obvious. Things like, so the image in this picture is of a, I don't know, a female firefighter. Yeah, that's not going to work in some places, right? Whatever it might be. And you can pick your diversity or cultural, you know, faux pas idea. The female firefighter came to me because it was a real example that we had to make all the firefighters mail for something once in a picture. You know that. So we're talking about the technology that we use to manage all that content and make sure that everything is set for the target locale that you're the markets you're going into. We're talking about saving that you know you a buyer is going to have language assets. We have translation memories, we have glossaries, we have style guides, and that's all part of the assets that the client owns. But we typically maintain those, polish them, you know, tidy everything up. If we're coming, if we're transferring from a different from a different, different translation company, first of all, we have to look at the quality. What is the work like that they've been getting? Because most people can't tell what their own translate, what the quality is, right? Sometimes companies have in country review, or they have someone who happens to be a native speaker of a language and has some time. There's an opportunity cost there, but that's often how people do it. So we so sometimes people know what the quality is like, but sometimes they only know the quality is bad when they get a complete from when someone Yeah, that's the problem with translation. You can't you don't read Japanese. You can't tell how the Japanese is well, and that's where the big word that I wrote on on top it, and it kept coming back to my mind in terms of why? Why does all this matter? For a plethora of reasons, but for the for the brand, or for the company that would be investing in this, it's credibility, right? Like, if you don't have that credibility, and especially if you're trying to play into a new market, you're trying to have new comms. And you come in and, you know, I've tried to think of a silly example to bring it back to earth a little bit, but the birthday one is a perfect one, like the different dates that the photos, and you know you think about like religion from a culture standpoint, there's so many different things. We all know if a text lands will yes when we read it, right, right? So I could, or let's say, a US company could have beautifully written us English content, and then could go to market in the UK and Canada and Australia and South Africa and New Zealand and India, other countries that have a significant English speaking population, and it could flop right because they they can understand it. Sure, comprehension is not typically going to be a problem in an I don't know you, let's say in an adult clinical trial, a Canadian or a British person reading US English, there might be something that's a bit jarring that they're typically going to understand, but they're going to know it's not written for them. Yeah. So you want inclusion, you want that maximum impact, right? You're in Mark comps, you know this, right? And as soon as you you know they're they're gonna know it wasn't written for them. Nobody bothered to to change the spelling of all the way to read it. I don't need to read it, right? And, yeah, you lose. You lose out on somebody that should be in your target audience because of something that frankly feels like a it feels like it should be a non negotiable, right? And, and for them, it is, for the end user, it is, but oftentimes, for the budget, for the brand, it's, it's, it's overlooked, right, right? And, I mean, I have to say there are lots and lots of life sciences companies that are mature and they know what they need right. They know that they need to get this right in order to succeed and and sometimes regulators have mandated that people must do things, because the regulators know that, that you know the benefits to the users will be there are obvious, right? So that sometimes people need to be nudged to do the right thing, right? We all know that it's a bit like diversity action plans for clinical trials, right? The FDA has decided that some, some of the parties are going to need to be nudged, some of the sponsors are going to need to be nudged to do that, to head in the right direction. And we know it's not just about being it's not just a nice to have diversity or inclusion. It's a good for science, right? It's good for science. The results are better if we have more inclusive populations in that particular example. But. Yeah. I mean, so a patient could tell if a text not been written for them. They know. They know so well. And I yeah, just as just to tie a bow on that you're right, it's, it's better for science. It's better for humans. The representation there is, is everything. So I, I promised that we would get out of here, because we both are staring at a weekend ahead of us. I This, this conversation has been fantastic, exactly what I expected. I think a lot of good has come from it, and I think we'll have some follow up questions, and, you know, different areas to go to, but I am curious, just kind of final takeaway, you know, if somebody was just getting started. Somebody started a new company, potentially, and they're looking to to enhance their, you know, their their translation opportunities. They're looking to step into multilingual communications, maybe on that same side, you know, I we work with SCORR, you know, a lot of companies that are us focused, and then move to EU and start growing in different countries. What's a piece of advice? A lesson, something that you would share, you know, impart some wisdom on for those that are listening in that space, I would say, involve your translation partner early, earlier than you think. Because if you get it all, if you get the document flow all set up, you get all the kinks out the system before your deadlines come in. You don't the worst, the worst scenarios are always where we're an afterthought. So my my advice would always be to to start early. And for those of for those listening who have a translation provider already, ask them questions, yeah, ask them what their quality management process is for that for those translation memories, ask them. Ask them what the credentials of the linguists are if they're truly getting cultural competency. Ask them if they've had in country review done. If that's not something you do so you know, ask, you'll ask your provider, what it is that you know, because, because it's remarkable. What difference? What? What the difference is when? When, when all of you, the intended users in a particular market, are are consistently reading, listening, seeing content that they can tell has been written for them, and they can't tell it's been translated. That makes a difference in this world. I love it. It's a great way to end and, you know, is right where I was going to go with it is to ask questions. You know, if there's, if there's not, you know, let's start to ask questions. Why? If there is, let's ask questions. And the more that you learn earlier on in that process, the the more successful you're going to be. So, Karen, where? Where can people find you? I'm going to link the LinkedIn. But where will you be this year? I know we mentioned next one is scope. Yes, I'll be at scope Orlando all week. That's, that's the first one that I will be at. I'm usually at the big ones like DIA and raps and stuff later, but, but my I don't have anything in January, and then I start travel with scope the golf tournament, even, I believe I'm playing golf that for you, February, wow, I yeah, I come in from Colorado, and so that will be a nice reprieve. It'll be, you know, because I always joke with my wife, yeah, I'm in Orlando, but I'm not stepping outside of the Rose and Shingle hotel for three straight days. So, you know, the golf at least get courses yet to be in public. It is an intense, an intense week at scope. It's a pretty high energy week, isn't it? Yes, it is. Well, I I'm so thankful for you taking some time out of your Friday this, you know, to start the year. Start fantastic content. And thank you to everyone who continues to listen to the SCORR cast, if you are interested in talking to Karen, you'll be at scope, find her on the show floor, connect with me. I'll set up an introduction, and I'm certain that if you try to bother Karen on LinkedIn, that she would love that as well. So reach out and and start that conversation with Karen and invest attack and as always. Thank you so much, and have a great day. As always. Thank you for tuning in to this episode of The SCORR cast, brought to you by SCORR marketing. We appreciate your time and hope you found this discussion insightful. Don't forget to subscribe and join us for our next episode. Until then, remember, marketing is supposed to be fun. You.