Leadership | Building Culture, Clarity & Confidence in Life Sciences

In this episode of the SCORRCAST, Jenna Rouse, Global Head of Clinical Operations at Simulations Plus, Inc., shares her leadership journey. From defining company culture to navigating global teams, Jenna offers insights on building trust, driving clarity, and leading with purpose in the life sciences space.

Transcript

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Hello everyone, and welcome back to another episode of the SCORRCAST. The SCORRCAST is your essential guide to all things life sciences, where we talk marketing, we talk business development, we talk operations innovation, and today we're going to talk a little bit about all of these things, and a lot about leadership. And I'm so excited to have a special guest on for this episode, Jenna Rouse, who is the Global Head of clinical operations at Simulations Plus, and I am really eager to have your perspective Jenna on the podcast, because we don't always talk about some of the operational development. We don't always talk about some of the brand development, and being able to consistently tell this story through operational efficiency. And then certainly excited to dive into, you know, your leadership philosophy and some of the things that you have gone through in the industry. And I know, gosh, I feel like it's been three years since we first connected, when you were at proficiency. And, you know, have kind of stayed in touch as as some of these things happen from proficiency, which we'll certainly talk about here with simulations plus. And then this past spring, we were kind of rolling out our second season of the SCORR cast, and we wanted to get different perspectives within clinical research, within clinical operations, and Lea LaFerla SCORRs president and I put a big circle and an asterisk around your name, saying we'd love to have you join the podcast. So thank you so much for joining. And before I start running on all things, operations, leadership strategy, why don't you give a little introduction to yourself and your background and maybe a little bit about what you're passionate about, and then we'll go from there. Yeah, sure. Thanks for having me on this, by the way, absolutely. Yeah. I started with, with clinical trials, gosh, over like, 21 years ago, I think it is now. And I started with acrp, which was just a really random kind of way. I think everyone in clinical trials happens, danced into clinical trials like you asked a coordinator, how did you start here? And they were like, wow, I don't know. And so I was sort of in that, in that bucket, I was very fortunate within acrp to have one great leadership and then also the opportunity to do a ton of things there, and then meet hundreds and hundreds of site leaders, sponsors, CROs, and really understand this market, And also what those gaps were, I was able to create, you know, kind of a business to business function within a CRP, where we're able to bring learning into organizations. And in that role, I was able to work with proficiency, which was my past organization. Proficiency was a small startup. When I first started working with them, it was before they got any funding. It was, I mean, it was, it was so small they didn't even have full time employees at the time. But I loved what they did. I mean, using simulation as a way to practice really conflict concept, really complex concepts, and do that in a risk free environment. One, it's what all other high risk industries do. So it just makes good sense to do that. What we're doing is in clinical research has significant impact on human health, and that's important. So making that investment to do it well is is really important. But two the people that are taking that as a learning enterprise love it. I mean, I would so much rather be in a learning session where I'm I'm kind of making decisions and and taking a right course of action than having PowerPoint presented to me. That's agony. No, I always say when I'm at conferences, I'm like, No one loves your PowerPoint. No one. But yet, here we are with 200 page PowerPoint, still doing that. So anyway, back to the point though, I started working with proficiency, and I just loved what they did. I loved how innovative it was. I loved I was selling proficiency services through a CRP to sites. They were eating it up, finding money on top of training budgets to get access to this training for the acrp curriculum and the mode of learning that they had after a couple of years of working with them, I was like, this is the single greatest way of it, positively impacting clinical trials, and that's where I joined proficiency full time. Became a legitimate organization. We got private equity funding. I mean, it was a true startup enterprise, and I loved it so much. We got sold to simulations, plus, which is such a Kismet moment, because we use simulation as our training mechanism. So now, being part of a company with the name simulations, plus public organization, much more rigorous and how they do things, and then also very much in like up up flow, so they do a lot of the data modeling, bio simulation and such. So it is, it's their their science. This, and I'm like, way smarter than I am so but it's been a real joy working with their team. They're very innovative. They're also working with a lot of the same clients we were working with. So it's just been a really seamless transition over to simulations plus, and we've got big plans in the future. So that's how I am where I am now. It's been a wild ride, and I love it. I I love that, and I appreciate all of the background, because it already led me to the first detour of our, of our outline for for the episode today, which is you mentioned you kind of just fell into clinical research. And it's, it's a recurring theme on this podcast, where everybody that I'm talking to, for the most part, just had a moment where they accepted a job and now it's like, I will never leave. And I had that moment as well. I can feel just this passion coming through you talking about this and how excited you are to be able to to share the impact, create the impact, and do all of this. Where did that come like, is that something that you just learned over time? When was that inflection point in your career where you were like, Okay, this is it. This is this is the thing. This is where I'm at, and I'm, there's no way I'm leaving. I'm going all in, and I'm putting all my, you know, my eggs in this basket? Yeah. I mean, honestly, I think it was proficiency where I really started to get passionate about it, because we're so fortunate. I think any solution provider that you talk to would say a similar thing, where they get to see a lot of studies. And so I feel like I get this, this privilege of understanding, kind of, like, the foundation of all these different innovative studies that we're working on, like, you know, how are you going about, like, addressing chronic kidney disease, or, how are we using this new approach to an obesity study? And so I get to see these things that are happening, and I don't, I would be a terrible Clinical Research Coordinator like that would be a match that should never happen, but I get to still understand these, these studies, and see how impactful this work is for you know, like the human condition and human health. And I think it's really important work. I think it takes so much time and effort and resources to take this study and disseminate it across a global site landscape and make sure you're doing things consistently. That's hard. It's hard, and so if I can help impact that, I think anyone in any job anywhere wants to see how their work contributes to a bigger picture, whether it's within an organization and nobody wants their work to contribute to more money for someone else. They all want to feel like their work contributes to something bigger, that they can say, I helped that. And we can everyone in clinical research, I think can do that as long as you know, from a and you know one of your I think one of the things that we were going to kind of like address is, like on a leadership side is I just want to make sure everybody that I work with understands what we're doing here. And I think it's important. It kind of makes you excited about what you're doing. Well, it brings it back to the the impact. And I think, you know, we've on this podcast a lot, we talk about how you can get caught in the day to day and the ground and the numbers and, frankly, the pressure. And you know, you mentioned the rigorous activity, the regulatory like, there is a lot of pressure to be in this space. And so if you kind of lose yourself in the day to day, you can forget about the impact that's being made on humans across the world. And so I think it's a really interesting perspective. And for me, you mentioned it in terms of that kind of segue. From the leadership perspective, how important it is that leaders are able to identify and be excited about the impact, because that's going to make it a lot easier for the rest of the team, for your clients, for anybody that you're working with. Hell, right now you've got me ready to run through a brick wall. I would also be a really bad clinical research coordinator. I would be bad at anything that involves data collection and science on that side. Yeah, you have me fired up, and I feel like I am ready to get started. And so can you talk a little bit about just with your background, and you mentioned the startup, and now we're at simulations. Plus, how do you think about leadership within this space, and how do you maintain the optimism and the energy that you have, and how do you kind of infiltrate that into your leadership perspective and some of the strategies that you're creating as well? Yeah, I think it kind of differs based on the kind of organization that you're in. For me, personally, I found, I think a lot of my energy and passion for the profession started with acrp is feeling like you're part of something bigger. So, I mean, even from the, you know, entry level, you know, coordinator, clinical trial assistant, it's a good idea to get involved in something bigger. SCR is. Great. You know, acrp is great. There's just so many organizations there to feel like you're part of something bigger and not so isolated within an organization or maybe even a small site. So even within my team, I want to make sure that that we're all working together on something, that that one team understands what the other is doing, that there's clarity of role and purpose that and then, you know, keeping people excited about what they're doing, I think, I mean, my my personal philosophy, is helping them make sure that they feel like they have skin in the game, that they understand that there's, you know, innovation that can be found anywhere I had, you know, I have one of my teams, the delivery team, and we work with within our solution set, we create content which is very unique in this space, as well as delivering content, tons of delivery content organizations. So you can find someone who can, you know, quickly, help you generate content and then disseminate it anywhere where we kind of do things a little bit differently is we take, like, protocols in house, and we'll create custom content. So, I mean, we had one of our simulation producers start tinkering around with AI and, like, with a closed loop, so it's all perfectly, like, safe and protected. Just have to put that out there, because it's something to think about. But I mean, he started creating this this way, and this is, you know, within the last year of automatically creating content from that because, you know, protocols are they're standardized, you know, like, they have the same format. And because of that, we're able to, like, really quickly create content within like, one or two days that's simulation based and practice oriented. I'm like, this came from my simulation producer. This was not something that, like, I was sitting around being like, how are we going to use AI to quickly? I mean, these are things I was thinking about. But you know, if he didn't feel like, I'm going to try this, I'm going to see what happens, and start getting creative with that, we wouldn't be where we are right now. And it's, you know, you just got to let people, kind of like, explore, get creative. Yeah, it's, it's, I talk about it a lot as the culture of innovation is not sitting around and saying that we should be innovative. It's giving space for somebody to come in with a bad idea and say, Hey, I tried to mess around with this. I followed all the rules and regulations. I did it the right way. But, yeah, hey, here's the result. Here's what I here's what I was able to achieve. And it's not, it's not going to work, and we're going to move on. Or, hey, yeah, it's, it did work. Can I try it again? Can I, can I do this? And I think, you know, there was a podcast that I had, maybe one of the first ones that we did was about innovation and how the best ideas right now are, being built from leaders and team members who are okay with being wrong and trying to, trying to come up with a new idea, and going away from this philosophy as of well, we've always done it that way, and that's where every good idea ever has, has has been cut on the, you know, the cutting room floor. And so I think that a lot of that same, you know, philosophy is in place with you have to have it as a culture, from the leadership down to each of the individuals in order to be successful there and be bring it to light too. I also think that there's this, this desire in human nature to, like, try the new idea and have it just be this groundbreaking, immediate thing, particularly in this space, patience is key. Like, you have to have a new idea. And I can't tell you how many times I've heard from a sponsor. Well, who else are you working with? Because we have FOMO. I mean, not those exact words, but, you know, a big sponsor buys it, then everyone else is like, well, we should too, but it's patience and like, diligence. You know, we're on this marketing podcast. It's awareness and it's timing. For all of that. When working in clinical study space, if your your solution is hinges on study startup, you're you have to be the right place at the right time and from the right person, like, with the budget in hand, like ready to go. It's all timing, patience. And you got to let that idea percolate for a while and then be ready to, like, tinker with it a little bit. So that's something that I've learned over the years, that it's never the right one first out of the gates, got to keep tinkering. I love, I love this concept of of patience as a as a skill set, and I think it ties in with the thought that I've had a lot about the AI realm and innovation as a whole, is that we're not going to use it, and it's not going to come in and completely change everything tomorrow. It's going to be in the margins. It's going to make us more effective in an area, or it's going to increase the effectiveness and increase the bottom line. It's going to take a little bit away from the site burden, like it's going to be these things that they aren't the sexiest things in the world. But that's the type of innovation that is, if you compound it over and over again. And you have a year, and you've got 10 different individuals that are finding those little slivers and those gaps, and then you are patient to see the outcome and the iteration of it that's ultimately where you're going to make a bigger impact than trying to find something that's like, Hey, we're completely scrapping how we've done it before, and we're changing entirely. That innovation is going to be much harder to come by AI like that. That's not just going to be something that happens overnight. I think that's another kind of perspective of how we have to think about how to use AI to make us more efficient, not to change everything that we're doing right now too. Yeah, and we use AI in our kind of data modeling space differently than I am in the learning space. You know, I can use AI for content creation, and it is an incredible efficiency measure. Will never be. I mean, it's clinical trials. Every clinical trial is unique. That's the point of clinical trials is trying something new, a little differently, maybe a different patient population, maybe a little dosing to change, you know, so there's always something different, and AI can get us 80% of the way there, but we still have a team that has clinical research expertise that will find the Phantom in that AI script, because there's always a phantom in there. And I've seen companies come along that are like, everything's AI generated. I'm like, red flag, yeah, well, I don't want to work. I like, genuinely. I still need that human connection, right? I need a partner. I need the extension of the team. It's, you know, I think we were, we were at a show a couple of weeks back, and this, when this airs, it'll already be passed bio and DIA and some of the other shows this summer. And both, both on the industry side and on the marketing side, there's so much commentary around AI, and I think it's more so because nobody knows exactly the answer. If you say you're using it, there's just enough of an allure of like, oh, okay, well how? Like, yeah, there's no there's no true understanding of the impact that can be had. And I'm using Gemini and replit, but somebody else is using operator and chat, and there's all these different things. And then you bring that into the actual the clinical trial space, when I see AI, you know, data driven model, it's like, well, that's, it's always been a data driven model. Well, you know, I want the human being that's the brilliant individual being able to help me and be my, my my partner, yeah, and be able to share, showcase that expertise too. So we weren't supposed to talk about AI, but now I'm now we're already on that. I feel like you can't have a conversation right now with without that being a relevant, a relevant discussion. Yeah, anything else you want to add to that before we before we segue into another I feel like I stole it. There anything else that you want to add to that piece? No, I know, but I do agree with you that. I mean, as long as you, I think, as long as people are understanding that there's, but it's a tool in the toolbox, not the tool or the toolbox. It is, you know, it's one way of helping bring things along. And I do think I agree with you that AI is many different things to many different people. And I do think a lot of companies are also like using it as this kind of coin phrase that is like, we use AI Well, sure you chat GPT to the rest of us. It's great. But how is like, how does that AI help? And I also think the other thing I've noticed with clients that we work with is that when we bring up that we use AI to speed the process up, there's this inherent cuts out, like, oh, well, then it's and it's cheaper, cheaper, obviously, yeah. Like, we actually have multiple people now that that are trained to go through these scripts and make sure that they're finding the that Phantom and the incorrect information. So we always say here, it saves us 50% of time, and then adds 30% on for QC, so you're saving about 20% but it's not it saves time. It's not always saving that, that effort, because the the people now that have to go through it, have to have a higher level of that kind of cognitive ability to go through and find that information. They have to really understand. They have to go through a protocol. They have to then quality check it against the script. So it's not it's time, but it's not always directly correlative to money. So that's just something else that I've noticed. I'm just going to pull that and plaster it everywhere. Because on the marketing side, especially, it's like, oh, you're using AI for data collection. It should be like, you're, oh, you're way cheaper, yeah, oh, absolutely. And it's like, well, actually, it's, it's actually harder to do it, you know, it might be more efficient, but having somebody learn that skill and have that in the toolbox, and I think, you know, you said it best, which is, it's a tool in the toolbox, not the toolbox itself, but I've also heard it as the solution, and it's not. It's certainly not, not the solution. And, you know, I think that you mentioned companies saying they're using AI, I have had, I've, I'm on record for having beef in the past with people who. Who are companies that have innovation in their brand messaging? Because I do not know what you mean. I you don't have any of that in your secondary messaging or in your brand story. You just have the word innovation or innovative partner. And when you really dial it down, you're doing the same thing that all of the competitors are doing in this really crowded space, you're not innovative. And AI is really starting to become another one of those buzzwords. You know, I talk about the sea of sameness all the time in the industry, and it's going to be a very similar approach, where you're basically, we're all saying that they're doing the same thing, but it's just a different AI tool that's doing it. And what's the actual value to me? The customer, the client, your target audience. I'm not sure when all I see is AI or innovation as part of that. So I hear you saying that innovation is today's synergy. Oh, gosh, do you remember? Yes, I there was a post on LinkedIn yesterday that was like I said synergy. The other day, someone was writing this out. It was like, I said synergy. The other day, I instantly put myself on mute, and I was ready to throw up and plug in. Yes, it is. Oh, and the industry as a whole, I remember I started at SCORR, right at the beginning of of the COVID 19 pandemic. And so really have seen this, this trajectory, and I think about all of the different buzzwords that were suddenly on every trade show booth for a six month period, whatever it was. And, you know, it was decentralized, that it was patient centricity. And then, you know, this past D farm, I about lost it with data driven insights, and I made a rant about it, but it's very similar in the same approach of we're not actually saying anything from a brand standpoint. I know we want to talk a little bit about brand development and customer loyalty and some of the impact that you make. And I think it's a fair segue to go into this direction, I'm going to ask a bad question. Okay, I'm allowed. I allow myself to ask one challenge that cast. I say it one bad, one bad podcast question every, every episode. And it's actually pretty much directly from the outline, and it's, it's thinking about your role within Global Head of clinical operations, and thinking of the the work that you do right now, but then having this concept of brand and customer loyalty and expectations from first touch point to last touch point, not everybody in this industry compares brand with the execution and at the operational level and customer loyalty, all of these different pieces that I consider a brand. I think your first touch point and your 400th touch point from the project manager and the account team and customer success, those are all elements of of your brand. And so I'm curious, just in your role, how do you think about the brand development, the story you know, customer loyalty? How do you think about all of this and then tying it into the role that you have today as well? Yeah, I mean, I'm kind of in the for this question. I'm lucky that I do have a marketing background. Yes, that's that's why I'm excited about it. I'm excited about this cheating. Yeah, I mean, I think most people who don't think about brand as like colors and fonts and what's your tagline and the design of your logo, and that is, that's the that's your design elements, like, that's not your brand. Your brand is your voice. And you know, what story are you telling, and what is the sentiment that you want your clients and your prospects to have about you? And you know that is, I think you guys do really tremendous job of of that and that you know you need to establish as an organization like, what is your persona? Who are you to the market? Not who you are to your current clients, but who do you want to be for your future clients, and are you delivering on that with your current clients? Like, do they feel that you are trustworthy and reliable and and steadfast, or do they think that you are exciting and like? So these are, I think, some of the brand elements that we want to be consistent about. And I will say that that that is something that as a transition from proficiency as a startup, it was so easy for us to be like the, you know, innovative technology, you know, like that we could do. And we do have, we're in transition with that with simulations, plus that is more they've been established. They've been around for a long time. They are in the data science side of things. So we've got to make sure that we're still able to retain some of that passion in the brand that we have as proficiency within simulations plus, and be simulations plus, and that's something that we're I think we're still in transition on, because simulations plus has a great reputation outside of clinical operating. We want to make sure that we can combine both of those, you know, bring forward what we brought to the table with proficiency into simulations plus, and kind of, maybe we're kind of like the crazy like or like the circus entered the building. We do. I love that. I love it. That's the That's the title of the episode. Here is the circus in the building. I was a mic drop moment on, on brand and, and that story, and the brand is, is how you show up day in and day out, yeah. So bringing it, bringing it even more, continued into, you know, how you create solutions. And we talked about, you know, some of the learning models, and you know how excited you were about that has a very proficiency feel to it, right? In terms of that passion, how do you make sure that you take the brand and then really be able to include it or involve it into the solutions that that the end users are now getting to experience Yeah, I feel like there's the word compromise that's going to come up, and I feel like that's the most boring word in the world, but I have to use it. There's some synergy. Why would you do that to us? Now it's stuck on mute, continue, continue. Yes, I'm done, continue, but I really like we have to, you know, we have to be that, that more rigorous, standardized organization, and I think there's value in that, especially when it comes to learning, because learning is a science, and when you're doing learn, when you're in that endeavor, I think there's so much entertainment and excitement that can engage your audience, but you still have to be very responsible and rigorous about how you're collecting data and how you're presenting that back to the clients. And I think that that is something that is adding value to what we deliver. We've always been really good at that, but I feel like this organization is kind of teaching us to lean into that a little bit more, which is making our message better. And then I think we also are contributing a little bit more of that. Like, let's be more engaging with the rest of the organization. Like, let's find ways of of sharing reports in a way that carries forward a brand of like, you know, a modern organization, and, like, innovative organization, find the next word, you know, just thinking forward. Yeah, yeah, the leading edge. The leading edge, you know, let's do thinking forward. Maybe thinking I like it. I like it. I I think that. I think that it's a really interesting it's a really interesting concept around, you know, especially at larger organizations or even smaller organizations, but that have different service lines or different products, where maybe one has a little bit of a different feel. And one of the companies that we've worked with in the past, that I always go back to is green fire, who was, you know, recently merged with with savoda. But they had these different product lines, and some of them had their own brand and the own, their own energy. And they had this little mascot named Fuego, and he was more involved in that side, right? And so, like you have to be able to balance you still need for when some when the end users involved with that technology, that service, that product, whatever it is, you have to be able to know that it's coming from simulations, plus. But you also want it to have that light, that spark. Because, especially when we talk about, you know, the focus here, within adaptive learning and just learning in general, you want to have it be engaging. And you want to have it be something that, that, that people want to come back to time and time again. And so I think you're, you're hitting on, on all of these different pieces of, of, kind of the house of brands, and branded house within the market development too, yeah. And then who you're talking to, yeah, no. I mean, that's, that's one of the things I kind of always think about, is like, in this in this profession, a lot of the like, solution providers market to the buyer, yeah, and not necessarily marketing to the end user and user. And I think that's part of that environment, right? Like for us, one of our winning spots is that sites love what I mean. We have people at scope chasing us down to be like, Oh, I love what you do. It feels really good. And if we don't talk about that, which we don't talk about enough, frankly, we need to do much better at that. But I mean that that that's a win right there. And absolutely everything else simulations, plus does is for data scientists, what we do is for clinical operations, but also for sites and for patients. So we have an ability to be a little more exciting, because that's we have to engage that audience. We're not just delivering kind of a solution to them. We have to have them engage in it, because the sponsor wants to make sure that a site is in it is understanding. Ending something is being responsible and in responding to this learning, and isn't just, you know, the notorious like, fast forward through an education session and answer five questions. They want to make sure that something they should be asking for, an ROI in that effort they should be asking for. How do I know that they understand something from this effort? So I think that we have the ability within our little kind of, you know, with the green fire example, like we have the ability to be a little bit more exciting, because that's our job is, to go out and launch all of this quality work out into, you know, a bigger space well, and especially when the solution that you're bringing is unique to simulations, plus as well. And so, I mean, you, you kind of are giving a masterclass right now on, on being able to fold in a brand and a solution, maintaining some of the expertise and fun and elements of one, but matching the other. And you mentioned earlier, you know you are. You were already doing certain things, but now simulations, plus the way they do things is, is kind of elevating you in a certain direction, too. And so it's a, it's a especially within this industry. I mean, you've seen it, I've seen it. We've all seen it. There are times where mergers and acquisitions do not go well, and right, two years later, people are still referring to it as the other company and this company, and there's different websites, and there's no strategy and cohesion, and so, you know, even just hearing how you talk about it, seeing the benefits of, you know, being able to assimilate with the simulations, plus, but then also have this kind of uniqueness of your your team is really cool to see, too. Yeah, okay, I have got two questions left. Sure, I already asked a bad question, but I have to ask another one. It wasn't bad. I yeah, I felt like, I felt like I could have made it hard. I thought it was just going to be a little bit harder. It's like a softball. Oh, wow. All right, you know what, let's, let's, let's really, let's really dive in here. I am curious. I am really curious, and I apologize for not sending this over. And if you don't want to answer it, I won't be offended in any way, shape or form. How are how are you within the current landscape of 2025, current administration, some of the pressure around the the mandates, clinical trials, you know, we talk about it a lot on the manufacturing side, but certainly here, you know, within clinical trial landscape, how are you adapting your service offering or your story that you're telling to be more effective in this time? Or are you not? Is it something that you guys aren't seeing that impact at all? I'm curious. I mean, it hasn't been a fun year. No, yeah, no. It hasn't like, the amount of like change and kind of the decision making process, I think, for for this, I think there's what I've seen, and I don't know if others would agree with this, so I'll just put it out there that what I see happening, at least historically, in the last kind of six months of this year has been this sort of like, you know, the decision fatigue phenomenon, you know, like, I have found that more often than not, when I'm talking to sponsors, who are our buyers and CEOs are our buyers as well, but, and ultimately, it's that sponsor of the study. It's like, they love what we do. It's like, that absolutely makes sense. But when it comes down to the rubber to the road, they're like, it's just one more decision. I just, I'm not sure I can make another decision right now. And so in the world of decision fatigue, it has been a very difficult thing. How do I address that? You know, you've got to make that value proposition undeniable. Have I reached the gold standard of that absolutely not. This is where the tinkering concept is continuing to come into play. So, you know, we've been able to use AI to adjust our timelines for delivery and our pricing a little bit too, because we have been able to find efficiencies with that. You know, we're talking about the value proposition as we as we usually have, and I think it's time to kind of be more case study based on that, to show what other sponsors have done. I'm not, I am not done with when you ask that question of, like, how are you doing? Well, we'll say, I'm still in development on that. I think, you know, the patience is key. Situation. I don't want to be like, it's not going well make a change. Like, I don't want to be that person. I want to be like, what's happening? What are the levers I can pull to try to move the ship in a slightly different direction? Is it going in the right direction? Let's pull it harder. You know, it's that kind of thing. So it's, you know, it's like, the rudder on the ship. I'm not going to, like, pull down the sails and retool the boat mid, mid sale. But it's not, it's been a rough year. Man, yeah, it, it? I love, thank you for answering that. And I love the approach to you know, we talk about all the time when you set a business strategy, a sales strategy, a marketing strategy, the economic turmoil doesn't mean that that strategy is necessarily wrong. It. Just might mean that we have to make some pivots, but scrapping it entirely is just as bad as as doing nothing. Yeah, I was trying to think there, there's a book that I read this past year called the jolt effect. I don't think I have it here. And they, they went through hundreds of 1000s of B to B buying processes over the last five years, and the number one cause of of DOL, of deals stalling out, was flat out analysis paralysis. It wasn't that they decided that they were going to stay with their own provider. It wasn't that they chose somebody else. It was Holy shit. There is way too much going on, and we're just gonna stick to the status quo, because I'm afraid of six months from now. I'm afraid of 12 months now, we see it on the marketing side. You know, it's really hard to move forward the plan if I don't know what the situation is going to be in six months, let alone, you know, three weeks, who knows what the CDC is going to come down like? You know, there's things that are changing consistently, and so you know what we really talk about when, when we're working with our clients in that is the value, like you said, the value proposition undeniable. If 95% of our audience is not ready to buy today, how can we be absolutely in that top three consideration set and a non negotiable for them when they are and if that means, yeah, we have a down month, but it means the next month or the next quarter, we're in a better position in that 3060, 90, 180 880 day pipeline, then that's where we have to shift our focus and being really top of mind. And like you said, the case studies, right? Like being able to effectively tell that problem, solution, result is, is so important, because right now, people aren't going to buy the nice to have, you know, the nice to have is, is not a priority in in today's market. And I think until there's a until there's a month without chaos, it might not come back to having to being a priority for a little while. You know? Yeah, I should clarify. We're doing really well, yeah. Like, I just want to make sure that I clear that. Like, you know, we've been very fortunate that our clients love us, so they keep coming back for more. And we've, we've still are very much on a growth trajectory. But like, I like to win big. Like, That's My nature, that's I've been in a startup, we like to win big. It's like a sickness for us. Anyone who's been in a startup will feel the same way. They'll be like, Yeah, I see that. I I've always wanted to run a marketing campaign for SCORR. I think agency, it's the same way, like you have to be a little a little messed up in the head. And I've always wanted to run a campaign with me, like, hair down and like, it's kind of like, Are you a little sick? That marketing agency is exactly what you want, and startups have, like, kind of the same, the same feeling, yeah. And just to say, when, when you answer that for me, what I heard, you know, in terms of, it's been a tough year, is for our clients and our clients, clients, it's just flat out, I don't know necessarily. And so, you know, it is different buying, yeah, it's a different cycle. I mean, I went, I went home from the office yesterday, and this, we're recording this June 11, and we see that the entire panel, you know, 17 vaccine experts, you know, gone out of their seat. And how does that change things? And there's not direct. A lot of times for our clients, there's not a direct one to one, but there is a Hey, should we? Should we pause? Should we? Should we not move forward? Yeah, we're hesitant. And so to me, that's where, you know, a lot of this comes in. Like you said, there's, there's just a flat out, like hesitancy or, yeah, analysis paralysis, status quo. You don't, you don't want to disrupt anything right now because of the the time that we're in, yeah, and we're talking to different people too. You know, some companies where I would talk to a study team, they're like, Well, we have an innovation team to talk to you now. And sometimes the innovation team is like, well, we let the study teams make their own decisions. And so and that, that even, I think in this kind of year of of transition, a lot of companies are taking that as an opportunity to reorg. And not everyone, for sure, but I think anyone listening to this will be like, Oh, I can name three that are reorganizing off the top of my head. And that also then who you used to buying, the process you're used to working through for buying that's changing so that, I mean, it's like everything just kind of like a little bit shifted, a little bit different. And fortunately, you know, we're change agents here again. That comes from being a startup, probably also with a marketing agency, yeah? So I'm ready to roll with that. It just adds a little layer of complexity to it for sure, which is, tell you what in an acquisition, that's not what I need. Want to be simple and easy. Yeah, that's great. Keeps you on your toes. That's for damn sure. That keeps you on your toes. Okay? I just looked at the clock. I looked at it like 20 minutes ago, and suddenly we're we're at. Time, and I'm going to be respectful of your time, because this has been just a fantastic episode. I do think, you know, maybe we'll have to have a second part, just more about the adaptive learning and some of the things that you're seeing for the future. But I, I want to give you an opportunity. We kind of talked about a random amount of things here, so wherever you want to go, I like to say, you know, give, give your final takeaway. You know, if the team is going to be at a trade show soon, where can they find you things like that? Or, yeah, some people just want to give an elevator pitch. But I'll give you the microphone for the, you know, the last minute or so here, and let us know what you're thinking. Yeah, I'm never, never really been one for the elevator pitch. Like I try not to sell because I don't think anyone wants to be sold to. But I do think that, you know, I do focus on the learning side. I focus on learning because I feel like it is such a critical way of driving quality in clinical trials. When you're trying to take a protocol across hundreds of sites globally, or even 10 sites locally for a smaller focus study, looking for ways to impact quality long term is important. I do think learning is a way to do that. There's a lot of great learning providers out there, and I think it's worthwhile to look at literally any other solution than a PowerPoint deck. So that's my plea for the industry. Is to you. Never do another 200 page PowerPoint deck ever again. Nobody wants to deck. Death to the PowerPoint. I am Yes, all in on I will double and triple down to that, right? Absolutely don't make it PowerPoint. Don't watch it. Don't we can help, but so can others. Yeah, well, find another solution. I have even said, if you're going to do the PowerPoint, do a video. Like, do a video of you talking through the power. Send it ahead of time. Do other things like, just be more creative. It's no one wants to sit here, yeah, and be involved with that. You know? I mean, Harvard literally published a study saying that PowerPoint was worse than useless, because the cognitive dissonance of reading and listening is physically like you physically can't do two at the same time, so the minute you have, like, a lot of words on your deck, you just went wrong. I say this because, and I've done a deck with words on the slide, and I've been an offender in the past, and when I do it, I'm like, why am I doing this? Everyone should ask themselves the same thing, words on a deck. No, that's it. That's the episode right there. I have to pull that. That is that, that Harvard, that Harvard drop Harvard, and we will be linking that study. Jenna, this. This has been absolutely fantastic. Worth the the price of admission for our listeners, which is $0 but it is still just an incredible listen. I really appreciate you taking the time to share your insights and your expertise and and also just your passion. You know this is it's one of the reasons that I started the podcast. Was just getting to hear stories and skill sets. And right out of the gate. I could tell you were coming in on the jet pack, ready to go, and I am extremely appreciative of that. I know our listeners will be as well. If you are listening to this and you want to reach out to Jenna, because you're either like me and you think that her passion is fantastic, or the solution is fantastic, reach out to her on LinkedIn. If you want to have an introduction, reach out to me, and I'll send over an email. And I'm assuming that if you're listening to this, you thought the episode was just absolutely perfect, so you should rate it five stars. You can leave a review. You can subscribe to the SCORR cast. You are episode 50. I believe Jenna, which is such a big deal. We started it in July of 2024, and we have done one every week since July of 2024, and so we are so close to week 52 here for a full year's worth of episodes, that I couldn't think of a better way to come into number 50 than to hear your expertise and you get to share a little bit more of your story. So thank you again. Jenna, thank you for having me as always. Thank you for tuning in to this episode of the SCORRCAST brought to you by SCORR Marketing, we appreciate your time and hope you found this discussion insightful. Don't forget to subscribe and join us for our next episode. Until then, remember, marketing is supposed to be fun.