Opt to Thrive…for Midlife Women

Social Withdrawal in Midlife - A Conversation with Tasha Morath

• Dr Corina Sims • Season 2 • Episode 42

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In this warm Sunroom conversation, Dr Corina Sims welcomes educator, counsellor, coach, and long-time friend Tasha Morath to explore a common but rarely named midlife experience: social withdrawal. Is it “normal”? When is it a red flag? Together they unpack the biology (oestrogen, serotonin, oxytocin), the psychology (mood, anxiety, identity), and the cultural lens that can turn “withdrawing” into wise selectivity—quality over quantity. You’ll leave with practical ways to support mood, connection, and confidence through perimenopause and beyond.

Key topics

  • Midlife identity shifts and choosing depth over volume in relationships
  • Emotional regulation, energy budgeting, and setting gentler social boundaries
  • Reframing “I’m becoming less social” → “I’m becoming more selective.”

Practical takeaways

  • Try one meaningful connection each week (walk with a friend, book club, small dinner)
  • Support oxytocin: touch/therapy massage, warmth, kind interactions, time in nature
  • Support serotonin: consistent movement, morning light, protein-forward meals (eggs, dairy, turkey, legumes, nuts/seeds), brief mindfulness
  • Red flags to discuss with your clinician: persistent low mood, anhedonia, high anxiety, panic/heart palpitations, significant sleep disruption, withdrawal driven by distress rather than preference

About our guest – Tasha Morath M. Ed., M. Couns.
Tasha is an educator turned counsellor/coach with advanced training and a deep interest in mindset, behaviour change, and women’s midlife wellbeing. She blends evidence-based tools with practical, compassionate support—and she asks the best questions.

Chapter markers 

  • Welcome & why this topic matters 05:30
  • “Is it normal?” What the lived experience looks like 09:50
  • Symptoms → social life: hot flushes, sleep, brain fog, mood 11:32
  • Hormones 101: estrogen, serotonin, oxytocin 15:33
  • Oxytocin/serotonin boosters you can use today 27:04
  • Cultural reframes: renewal, wisdom, leadership 23:55
  • When to seek help + simple next steps 43:16
  • Closing reflections & encouragement 45:46

Links & resources

Disclaimer
This podcast is for information only and is not medical advice. Please seek personalised care from your healthcare professional.

SPEAKER_03:

Hello and welcome to Opt to Thrive episode 41. Social Withdrawal in Midlife. A conversation with Tasha Moran.

SPEAKER_01:

Welcome to Opt to Thrive, your go-to podcast for women's wellness in midlife, designed to educate, support, and inspire you to live your very best life. And now your host is Dr. Karina Sims.

SPEAKER_03:

I have a very special guest for you today. I am so excited. We're coming to you from the Sunroom. It's a warm day, a little bit overcast. Still got all those beautiful blooms out there, heaps of strawberries. I just go out and just pick them right off the little line. It's really nice. But look, I want to get into it. I want to give you a little bit of an intro before we get started. I have been wanting to have this particular guest on the show since I started the show, but there really is just so much that we could talk about. I've really struggled to pick a topic. She agreed to come on the show a long time ago, and she's just been patiently waiting for me to decide where I want to start. And I finally made up my mind. It happened really naturally as I knew it would, and we're gonna get to that. But first, let me tell you a bit about our very special guest. Tash is one of my dearest friends. We only met in our early 40s when we were both new to the area. She actually came to see me first as a patient. And I remember meeting her for the first time and immediately thinking, I think we could be friends, right? Our birthdays are roughly a month apart, so we're the same age, and we both really love exercise. In fact, that's where we finally got around to hanging out. I'd always wanted to do a triathlon my whole life, and finally I got around to doing one in my early 40s, and then I did a few, and that's where I saw Tash at one of the local events. And I said, Hey, I think we should catch up sometime. So eventually we started cycling and swimming together. I never really ran with her though because she's way too fast for me. But it was actually on the bike that we really bonded because you can have conversations on the bike. I've talked about this before, our long, great conversations on the bike. We both very much have a growth mindset and are both into self-development and being our best selves. And one day I mentioned this podcast that I had found. I've mentioned it before. It's the Life Coach School with Brooke Castillo. And this was back in the day when a life coach was still, you know, pretty novel. So, you know, 10 years or more ago. I mentioned this concept to her that I had heard on the podcast that really fascinated me. So Brooke really opened my mind up thinking about how I think not just letting thoughts happen to me, but questioning them and seeing how they are the source of a lot of unnecessary suffering. And they don't have to be, right? Unnecessary. So, anyway, we've spent a lot of time and conversation around these types of topics over the years. So Tanash has a background in education. So she's a teacher and, you know, over the years worked her way through and into leadership roles, et cetera. And she was so interested in doing all of this type of work that she actually went away and qualified as a life coach. And then she went another step to do a diploma in counseling and started a small business that she did outside of her teaching role. So still teaching full-time. And then she decided to go on and get her second master's degree, this one in counseling. So it's just been so fun to have these discussions with her as she has built on and strengthened her knowledge base while at the same time gaining more and more clinical experience. And anyone who does clinical work knows that our patients or clients don't always fit the textbooks. So that combination of knowledge and clinical experience is so necessary to find your zone of genius, to hone in on your craft, right? And I think that's where Tash is. She is really there. She asks the absolute best questions and she just offers the best insights. We have such amazing conversations. We've been on this midlife journey together as well. This whole thing has just really offered so much more food for thought. We've reflected so many times on the unnecessary suffering we would be doing had we not been down this road of introspection and reflection and self-development. So much of this aligns with and is so much of what I want to share here. It's one of the reasons I started this podcast in the first place, right? So finally, today, we're gonna dive in. And I hope that you enjoy listening as much as I am going to enjoy having this conversation. Welcome to the Sunroom, Tasha.

unknown:

Thank you.

SPEAKER_03:

Yes, you're so excited to have you here. I first of all, thank you for being very patient with me because I have been wanting to have you on forever, as you know, and I just couldn't make up my mind where I wanted to start, what we wanted to talk about, because there's so many things we can talk about. So let me just give a little bit of background as to how we chose this topic because I haven't given it away in the intro. I chose the topic because I had a couple of patients kind of close together that had kind of expressed some concern about something that they were experiencing. It was in the menopause clinic and asked me if it was normal. And I guess it was something that I just always assumed was normal because it was something I had gone through. I had seen you go through it. When I went through it, I, you know, probably not so much of a surprise. But when you went through it, I knew that it had to be normal because what we're talking about today is the I don't want to call it a fact, but I guess a phenomenon that I have witnessed and you've witnessed, that we've witnessed together, that we withdraw a little bit socially, that we start to prefer our own company, that we would rather just put our pajamas on on a Friday night and dig into a good book and go to bed at nine o'clock or something along those lines. And that it becomes, you know, more challenging to go out socially. So when I saw that happening to you, little Miss Social Butterfly, when we used to go out, I would be jealous because I never got to spend time with you because you're busy talking to everybody. You know, for me it wasn't so abnormal to just want to sneak out at about 10 o'clock anyway, because my social battery is not a big battery. So this is what I chose to start our conversation with today, talking about this thing. Is it normal or is it abnormal? So, Tasha, take it away. Let's let's see where we go from here.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, it's to my surprise, after researching what I thought was, oh, what's wrong with me? Like you said, I was really social. Social as a young person, social as a young adult, social, very social. I couldn't get enough of social. Um, but then something changed, and there were actually a lot of other things changing in that time too. But it, yep, it's called menopause. And I guess we've often whispered a little bit about menopause, and so I didn't really know a lot about what was going on. And I really did focus on probably the negatives during that time, but uh like we'll lead to it a little bit more in in a moment. But I became quite um antisocial in a sense, depressive, um, and withdrew, like you said, a little bit, quite a bit at times. But I didn't really understand what was going on at the time, so I'm really glad we're having this conversation because as it turns out, it's actually quite normal. And do you know what? It doesn't last. So I love the fact that it doesn't last. I'm coming out the other side of it now, thank goodness. But there are also some things that perhaps I could have known or done during that time that I didn't know. And I guess I'm hoping that we'll talk a little bit more about that today. Because menopause does it marks a biological, physiological, psychological, and social transition, and it's often framed quite negatively in our culture loss, decline, isolation. But growing research points to positives, and also when we look at a mindset or the way we perceive menopause, perimenopause, it can make a vast difference to how we see it and what we're going through, and to really send an acceptance in that stage as well and seek support that we might really need during that time.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. So I think I didn't want to have this conversation really much at all before today because I didn't want to ruin any of the surprises and the spontaneity in this conversation because that's what I love so much about our conversations. But one of the things that we talked about was, you know, I suppose when when is it abnormal? Because there there can be withdrawal that is abnormal. And then when is it abnormal? Just a normal part of this midlife period.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay, that's a good question. Let's talk about what can happen and what can occur. So the literature shows us, uh, Australia doesn't have a lot of research around it, but other countries do. But the literature sort of lends to quite a few different things that contribute to withdrawal, isolation, and reduced social engagement during that period of time, particularly during perimenopause. So there are physical symptoms that can lead to avoidance of social situations. So women often report that symptoms like hot flushes, uh night sweats, fatigue, sleep disruption, and brain fog can make social events quite uncomfortable, exhausting, or anxiety-provoking. So, for example, attending a group event might trigger discomfort from hot flushes or being around many people, might exasperate mood swings or overwhelm. And these challenges can cause women to choose fewer engagements. And I definitely can relate to that during that paramenopausal phase. You probably can too. Mood disorders and depression. So, peramenopause in particular is associated with a higher risk of depressive symptoms. Yep. Depression itself is strongly tied to reduced interest in social activities. Yep. So some of your audience out there may relate to this. Increased social withdrawal and feelings of isolation. And some studies show that women in perimenopause are more vulnerable, particularly if they've had a prior history of depression. So it's really important for us to know this and go seek help when we really are sitting in this or noticing something that we haven't really encountered before in our lives, or has been something that has occurred in our life and it's repeating. But go and seek help. And we have friends, and I know that I needed some help. I sat in it for too, probably a little bit too long during that stage at times. Besides depression, anxiety, low self-esteem, and increased stress are reported. These can reduce confidence, increase self-consciousness, and make social interaction more taxing for some people. So also shifts in identity. So our perceptions of aging. Some women talk about feeling invisible or past their prime, can alter how much someone desires or feels comfortable with social visibility. The way menopause is perceived socially, norms about what women should be like, shame or silence around discussing symptoms, perception of aging, can discourage women from talking about what they're going through, seeking help or maintaining social roles. So these can all contribute to that sense of isolation. Lack of social support, so for example, friends, family, community is tied to worse menopausal symptoms. This is what the literature tells us. So more severe vasomotor symptoms like those hot flushes or hot, you know, that hate in our face, our neck, our chest, or that rapid heartbeat, um, the sweating. I know my smell changed. I actually stunk a little bit. And um, I was like, oh. I never noticed it. That can cause us greater distress. Conversely, the literature says that having strong supportive networks tends to buffer some of the negative impacts. So when social support wanes or is perceived to be lacking, women may feel isolated and reduce their social activity. Chronic psychosocial stress appears to make the menopausal transition harder. Cognitive symptoms like brain fog, memory difficulties. You have experienced this. I definitely have. I was even nervous about coming here today, thinking, I hope my brain switches on. I hope I can find some words or they can come to me.

SPEAKER_03:

That actually reminded me. I'm just gonna stop you there for a second because I I hadn't actually reflected on that until you brought this up. So looking back at the social kind of thing, it's already hard for me as an introvert to make conversation in a social setting with people I don't know or don't know well. And I remembered with you saying those things, I remember because I have one glass of champagne or a glass of wine, and like it's already my brain is already kind of, you know, a bit of a lightweight. And then with the brain fog, oh my gosh. And so there that was a point of anxiety for me of thinking, like I I'm gonna sound like a fool because I can't remember anything as it is, and then you give me a glass of something, and that's it. And then the other point that came from what you just said was that I had also lost some of the excitement of getting ready to go out. You know, I used to love putting my makeup on and doing my hair and dressing up and it, you know, I just not so joyful so much anymore, especially when I had put on uh, you know, extra weight and my clothes were uncomfortable and I was, you know, having to buy shirts that couldn't, you know, show my midsection, you know. Like it just took a bit of the joy out of that. So just a couple of comments from those.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, and it's going back to the alcohol, like we love a glass of champagne. Some women during that perimenopausal stage could always have a glass of champagne without a hot flush. But like as soon as they have a drink, hot flush comes on. So that can contribute to how they're feeling socially. Fatigue and sleep problems reduce energy for socialization. Our sleep is disrupted, you know, those hot that we go from hot to cold during that time. Our sleep gets disrupted at night if we're having the really hot sweats over time. These burdens can lead to pa to a pattern of less social engagement. You can see why. This all makes sense.

SPEAKER_03:

Absolute perfect sense. Have you seen the I don't know, it's on Instagram, it's on social media, the lady who has a hot flash. She's out at some event and it's at night and there's steam actually coming off of her head. I mean, that's pretty extreme. But I can imagine how embarrassing it might be for some people who really actually like turn red and sweat. And everybody else in the room is fine. Yep. So I can see how that could put people off of wanting to go out as well.

SPEAKER_00:

So all these things contribute to this factor. And I just not everyone experiences them all, but it's good to note them. So, okay, you can sit back and listen to this and go, oh yeah, I feel normal, you know, this is normal. Um, and I it's good to probably consider why, yeah, to understand why this is happening, and also to know that this is not gonna last. Yeah, you know, so if we think why, well, hormonal fluctuations. Now, you know more about this than I do, but there are massive declines in estrogen, or quite a large decline in estrogen, for example, and it stays declined. But your body suddenly feels this, and so estrogen has many roles in our body, but one of them is to enable us to produce neurotransmitters called dopamine and serotonin, and they are largely responsible for the effect of mood, sleep, and cognition. So if these have gone down, you know, we're not feeling we're not getting this dopamine as much. Of course, if there's less estrogen, less dopamine. It makes us feel good. Serotonin affects our sleep. These things affect our executive functioning. So we are not as sharp in our thinking, our memory is affected. Um, and these can make socialization so much harder during this period.

SPEAKER_03:

I had asked you, or I think I had made a comment when I mentioned that I wanted to talk about this, that I had seen something about oxytocin levels, maybe, and you you weren't sure, and I I didn't know. And so I did do a quick little search, and it does turn out that our oxytocin levels actually decline as well. And oxytocin is also known as a connection hormone, so it's involved with bonding and trust and social connection. So another hormonal thing that I can say.

SPEAKER_00:

Any wonder, and also that estrogen is responsible for anti-inflammatory properties in our bodies within our joints. So, for example, I wondered like I had really aching hips during perimenopause when I was trying to sleep, and I've heard other women say it too, and I started to get quite concerned. And then I also had um developed a shoulder injury and got bersitis in my shoulder. Now I was already down, that made me excessively down because I'm a swimmer and it's part of my mental health regime. And when that went, that that affected me massively. But I didn't know this is all to do with my estrogen, and there were some things like hormonal replacement that I could do or could have done earlier to maybe assist me during this phase. Things like physical discomfort, so again, vaser motor symptoms, sleep disturbance, fatigue lowers energy reserves, yeah, making choice of activities more limited. Of course, I went through a period where I had so little energy, I would get home from work and I would lay down and I would I meditate. There is nothing I'd like you know, I was like, I meditate, I exercise, I go to bed on time, I decrease drinking, I eat really well, and I was still. I called it, you know, I was uh I was in a funk, a really big funk, but it got more than a funk at at one period of time. So I was so tired, and on Monday I'd I'd be so worried about going out on Friday night because we're thinking, I can't go. I I can't go because I'll be too tired to go out on Friday night. That happened and it was real. And psychological effects, so lower self-esteem, increased anxiety, negative self-perception, feeling older or less relevant socially, feeling invisible. And I actually have a bit of a laugh about this because now that I reflect, menopause is a is another is one of those rites of passage, and it it is a rite to passage of wisdom. But I didn't know anything about this. But I think about the other rite of passage is puberty. Now, I and in puberty we think everybody is looking at us, you know, our brain really tells us that. And you know, I I had a giggle the other day and I thought, mmm, which one was worse? Well, right now I don't want to feel like everyone's looking at me. So I'm glad I'm not going through the pubescent phase. There's stigma or shame about symptoms, hot flushes, incontinence may make women reluctant to share or fearful of embarrassment, and that discourages social engaging and exposure. And lifestyle changes that occur during this stage, midlife stage, for example, responsibilities like caring for family, work demands, possibly decreased mobility, health comorbidities, which may reduce opportunities for or interest in social activities, can really contribute. So there's some of the whys, and it makes sense when you look at this. Having said that, not every woman experiences social withdrawal. Severity of symptoms, personality traits, cultural context, social and economic status, prior mental health history. So what you're saying is it can be normal not to withdraw all time. Absolutely. Attitudes towards aging and menopause all matter. So it you know, some women will go, ah, I can't relate to that. It's slightly different. You know, not every so some women may withdraw, others may find menopause a time of growth. Yep. New social roles or increased time of close relationships rather than broad socialization. And that's a big key that I would like to talk about a little bit more, which is quite normal for us moving into the second past that middle middle of our lifetime.

SPEAKER_03:

Can you just give us a few maybe a few things that should tip us off if we're concerned that maybe this, you know, is not so normal for us and that maybe we do need to seek some help?

SPEAKER_00:

I think if you're feeling funky, depressed, you know, and if you are concerned, I I early on I remember my ha my heart rate was really rapid and I was running with a friend and I said to her, Look, I'm just want to let you know, because we ran every Saturday, I'm having this heart thing, I'm not concerned about it. Um just a little heart. And she was but you know, if I did collapse, I'm just telling you so you can tell the ambulance. And I did tell one person at work as well, because I didn't want to fuss. And then she actually said to me, Have you told Karina? No, and I don't want you to go, you know, making fuss about this. And eventually I you meant you need to tell Karina as it would turns out. She told you, and um, then we investigated, and it turned out that it turned out that it was quite, you know, but we still did investigate just in case. I think it's good to go and get a checkup during this stage of life anyway, as it turns out, you know, I come and have a checkout, but I wouldn't and get your bones checked, your density checked, and have a look at your baseline, see if you're on track, see if there's anything that you can do a little bit better. It turns out my bad cholesterol is high, and there's you know, who would have thought with my dietary and lifestyle habits? So that's a genetic thing, most probably we've worked out. So there are things that we need to be looking at, I do think that are important to take a look at and change. But if your mood is low, don't sit on it too long. Go find someone that can help you, and we'll talk a little bit more about you know, that I think, if we can, a little bit more. What I wanted to talk though is largely about the global and cultural or context mindset perspective, the lens that we look through during menopause, because this changed a lot for me when I started to look at this. Okay. If it's okay. Yeah. Because in Western culture, menopause often carries stigma or invisibility. Yeah, but in other parts of the world, it's celebrated as a rite of passage, and I love this a move into wisdom and leadership. And so, you know, what can we learn from these cultural perspectives? And across cultures and centuries, women's experience of menopause has been shaped not only by biology, but by beliefs, values, and the stories communities tell about aging and womanhood. While in some Western contexts, menopause has often been associated with loss of youth, fertility, or vitality, many cultures around the world view this life stage as one of renewal, freedom, and wisdom. I love this. So this global lens reminds us that menopause can be so much more than a medical event, it can be a deeply meaningful transition to a new phase of power, purpose, and peace. So in many indigenous cultures, for example, menopause marks a woman's transition from childbearer to wisdom keeper. Among some Native American tribes, post-menopause women are revered for their spiritual authority. Freed from the cycles of fertility, they're seen as balanced in energy, able to hold both nurturing and protective roles within their communities. Similarly, in Aboriginal Australian communities, older women or aunties are deeply respected as cultural custodians. Their knowledge of land, language, and tradition carries immense value, and menopause symbolizes the beginning of this respected elderhood. In Japan, menopause is called kanenki, meaning renewal of life energy. Isn't that beautiful? It is viewed not as an end, but as a transformation, a natural phase of personal growth. Japanese cultural's deep respect for elders, combined with dietary habits rich in soil, a natural source of phytoestrogens, may contribute to a gentler experience of this transition. Rather than focusing on symptoms, Kaniki emphasizes balance, acceptance, and the renewal of vitality. In India, many women experience menopause as a period of greater independence and influence. According to traditional Hindu philosophy, life unfolds in stages. And after menopause, women may enter the vanaprasa state, a time for reflection, self-discovery, and spiritual growth.

SPEAKER_03:

Hey, that's what we've done. Yes.

SPEAKER_00:

Freed from societal expectations, here it is, tied to youth and family responsibilities, many Indian women report a sense of liberation and renewed self-worth. So what are the common threads here, Karina? What positive cultures share? So across all these traditions, women who experience menopause positively often live in societies that honour age and wisdom over youth and appearance, keep older women at the heart of family and community life, recognize menopause as a spiritual and social transition, not just a biological one, and create space for rest, reflection, and renewal. So Western cultures historically pathologise menopause, linking it with loss and withdrawal. But if you look at the cultural narrative, how this shapes our experience, one from respect to empowerment or stigma to distress. So across the world's transitions, one theme stands out. A time when women step into roles of mentorship, creativity, and authority. Phase where energy once devoted to others can return inward, nurturing clarity, confidence, and calm. So when society honours this transition, women thrive. And when women thrive, so do their families, communities, and cultures. So perhaps the greatest gift of menopause is a reminder that growth never stops. Around the world, it has been long seen as not as a fading, but as a flowering. Yeah. A time to claim one's wisdom, voice, and place in the wider story of life. So I'd really love to ask your audience just to reflect on which of these cultural perspectives feels most inspiring or healing to you. How does your community or workplace view women in midlife? What would it look like to create a menopause positive culture? That's what we're doing. One that celebrates wisdom, renewal, and freedom. How could you personally honour this stage of life in ritual, reflection, or self-care?

SPEAKER_03:

That's a great question. Thank you, Tasha. I wanted to go and talk about some of the things that you mentioned. Going back to the hormones, when we talk about this decline in estrogen and serotonin and oxytocin and all of these things, you know, what we can do about those things. And you know, as you said, we can get treatment for definitely the estrogen, you we can get treatment for the serotonin, but there are some natural things that we can do, and I think it's interesting some of those things that you know you were already kind of naturally doing. And so I've got a little list here: the oxytocin to get our bodies to make more oxytocin, things like touch, stroking, and warm temperatures. I thought this was really interesting because we both get very regular remedial massage, and I think you know it's good for your body, but also good for this oxytocin release and the heat. I thought that was really interesting because as we age, I think it's pretty normal. I mean, it's something that you see so commonly, and and we especially are liking winter less and less, and every year we're looking at, you know, how can we go somewhere nice and tropical and warm? So I thought that was interesting. Positive social interactions. So spending time with people that you love or activities that you like can also boost oxytocin levels and exposure to nature. I thought that was another interesting one because how often I know myself, I'm loving walking in nature. It's one of my absolute favorite things to do, and that has just become such a priority for me, and I know it has for you as well. Um, essential oils, so lavender, neuroli, and jasmine apparently can help increase our oxytocin levels. And then with serotonin, you know, we've always known that physical activity can help with that, and I probably, you know, have had some low-level anxiety most of my life, and that's how I've managed that. That's probably one of the reasons I've loved to exercise, because it does help with that. Our diet can play a role in that, and it's interesting because the foods that are rich in tryptophan, which is one of the essential amino acids, meaning, you know, we are we have to eat it, we don't make it in our bodies. It's found in things like turkey and eggs and cheese and nuts and seeds, which are all proteins, and it's an amino acid. Sunlight exposure, you know. Again, as we've aged, probably more and more drawn to just getting outside and being in sunlight. And then one of the last ones I'll mention for serotonin is mindfulness and meditation can also increase our serotonin levels. So I just wanted to touch on those for our listeners. You know, those are a few things that you might just add into your routine.

SPEAKER_00:

All those things are really important, and when we come back to the social aspect, this all makes sense because midlife added. Adults, the research shows us, and this is men and women, midlife adults report fewer but more stable social interactions. Social encounters become more selective and it becomes quality over quantity. Social variability decreases with age. So we have, you know, the ups and downs of day-to-day decreases. Emotional quality of interactions often improves in later life. But how do we interpret this in terms of metapause? Well, it coincides with this stage of life, meaning that social lessening may reflect adaptive selectivity, not isolation. But it's also, I call it the pause anyway. So it creates this pause where we become inner a little bit more. So we need more time for touch heat, exploring nature, exercise, diet, mindfulness, meditation. There's a pause that happens here, and we turn a little bit more inward. And this is a time for reflection. Who am I now? Who do I want to be? Where who am I becoming? Because there's a lot of things, our identity starts to change a little bit during this time. Also, one of the most influential theories in the lifespan of psychology is social-emotional selectivity theory. And it says that people perceive time as more limited whether through aging or major life transitions at this stage, they naturally shift their social focus. So they stop chasing novelty and start prioritizing emotionally meaningful experiences, like you're talking about. In the context of menopause, that translates beautifully. Many women say I don't have time or energy for drama anymore. Yes. They focus on quality, trusted friends, close family, activities that feel purposeful. So it's not a decline in social drive, it's a reorientation that happens during this period. The focus shifts from more people to the right people. Neckworks might shrink, but emotional depth increases and emotional regulation improves. Negative social encounters are minimized. So we're doing these other things more that we're reorienting for the activities that are more purposeful and we have less energy for all the other stuff. And it would make sense in terms of how the humans evolve and what our purpose is. We're designed to be socially active. We've got to find a mate and procreate early on in life. That's not our purpose later in life. We become the wise ones, you know, and we are nurturing the community in a sense and helping them get through these stages, you know, these early stages. So many women describe becoming more selective in who they spend time with. It's not about being antisocial, it's about being intentional. Deeper relationships might occur as women focus more on meaningful connections. Some report quality over quantity in social life improving.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, to go along with that, one of the thoughts that I had reflected on as we were preparing for this conversation was one of the reasons I like being at home more. I think that most of us have spent, you know, a good part of our lives building homes that we're comfortable in, that have our favorite things. You know, I love my home. I love being here, and it's comfortable. It has all the things that are meaningful to me. So I thought that that was probably part of it. And one of the other things that I stumbled on as well, looking at, you know, back to kind of the hormone thing was that I love to read, and I wondered if that was part of it, because that's another thing I hear. And a lot of us are sharing our books, and you know, we're all talking about the things that we're reading and that we're loving, and even some of my patients bring me books now. I just absolutely love it. So it seems to be another phenomenon that I see more as we age is reading, and apparently reading because it can be an enjoyable activity as well, can also help increase serotonin.

SPEAKER_00:

So there you go. And we develop those deeper connections through conversation around our books. Yes. So as women focus more on meaningful connections, some report quality over quantity and social life improving. That's part of the reading the books and sharing what what we're reading is the deeper relationships and connections are created. This fits with what women report. They no longer feel the need to maintain every social tie, especially ones that drain energy and don't align with their values. So the value is I like to read books and I like to talk about books with a small group of you know people that I feel connected to. You know the other great thing about post-menopause is that the literature says that we become more comfortable in our own bodies and appearance and authenticity in how one shows up socially. So there's this less pressure to perform outwardly. Isn't that beautiful?

SPEAKER_03:

There must be some kind of acceptance, maybe. And I I feel like within myself that that's something that has shifted as well. I used to be so hard on what I expected my body to look like, and then you know, as I mentioned earlier, you know, had put on some extra weight around and then worked to get that off, which was a challenge. But then there was a point at which I thought, you know, I I'm no longer striving to look a certain way. I'm really quite happy with where I'm at. And you probably maybe noticed last week when I was at the river, I never wear a two-piece swimsuit, and I just thought, you know what? Here I go. Like I am good. Yeah, exactly. I'm so much more comfortable in my skin now than I ever was. So I think that really fits with what you're saying.

SPEAKER_00:

Absolutely, absolutely. And we we probably do socialise with smaller groups if you think about it now. We really do. And so when we see women becoming less socially active, it might actually be a sign of growth rather than withdrawal. I feel that we're growing into this because it's it's often misread. So society tends to quite busy with connected, but true social well-being is about depth, not volume. And I think that's the way we start to see it a lot more in this post-menopausal phase. Menopause often invites women to declutter socially, to invest in nourishing reciprocal relationships. And I love this that even if you're looking at that as a reframe, it's not a social loss, it really is just that social refinement that's occurring. And also it can be seen as very protective. Meaningful social ties have been linked to lower stress levels and better emotional regulation, both of which support physical health through menopause and beyond. So it's about emotional regulation as well, during that point and beyond that point.

SPEAKER_03:

Are you seeing emotional regulation from the connections, the more meaningful connections with smaller groups of people?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Because they tend to avoid distressful sort of emotional um interactions. And all adults in the literature are generally emotionally wiser, better at avoiding distress and maintaining positivity. However, they're also more physiologically sensitive to stress. And I think you would probably know that as a doctor. So how does that apply to menopause? Women may withdraw from high stress social context, so large events or conflict type situations, and prefer low arousal, emotionally safe environments, smaller circles, talking about books, being in the garden, and deeper ties.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. That just reminded me of another thing that um you've mentioned along the way. Something, I don't know, was a study or something that you've read, that I think it's typical for us to think as we age, and I I think of my son who and maybe my daughter as well. At times I think that their perception has been how sad it is to be old. And and you I think you've mentioned along the way that actually that's not what the literature tells us, that it's not all um what's the opposite of rainbows and daisies when you age. Can you tell us more about that?

SPEAKER_00:

Well, that I guess that comes back to the cultural perspective that I was talking about before. Our culture sees aging as this horrible decline. Um, but I would like to think of it more as this decline to a flourishing time, you know, like and and you even talk about identity, but because menopause often coincides with an existential rethinking. How do women begin to re redefine themselves beyond roles like mother, partner, or professional? This is a time. Many women describe it as a return to self, if you like. After years of caregiving and multitasking, which we do, menopause can mark a turning inward, a chance, like I said, to ask, who am I now? Yeah, that can spark creativity, career shifts, spiritual exploration, and new social causes. It's a period of reinvention, if you like. Not because women have to prove themselves, but because they finally can focus on themselves. This is really liberating. I love this thinking. So I'm trying, I'm taking, I'm taking this perspective on. This is the one I'm taking. Sounds good to me. There's, you know, and look, to admit there's grief in letting go of certain identities, but there's also pride. And one woman told me, I used to pour my energy every net everywhere. Now I choose where it flows. And that captures the essence of this stage: deliberate, meaningful, and empowered.

SPEAKER_03:

That reminds me of something I went through probably early adulthood. I remember there was a point where I thought, what is it that I like? What is it that I want? Not what like my teachers or you know, my family or not what they like, what they want. I remember actually asking myself, what is it that I want? What am I doing? And it sounds very similar to, you know, we've given all these years to our families and our careers, and then we're at this point where we're back to going, right, okay, what is it that I want here? You know, what does the second half look like?

SPEAKER_00:

What am I doing from here? It's a good thing to, you know, if you look at it visually, if you can imagine this in your mind, like your timeline and you sit, you put where you are at the moment. So we're 55. And you if you put in everything not quite I go by the year. I don't remember how old I am, so I have to go by the year. I was born in 1970, so it's you know, I'm 2025, so I'm 55. So if you look at it, like we're just over that halfway mark. You know, if you look at everything you've done up until now, if you sit back and actually look at that visually, you know, you went to primary school, you went to secondary school, you went through like uni, you've studied medicine. There are many things you could put on this, and you're like, whoa, got married, had children, and then you go, Oh, what now? Because you hit this point. Well, that's a great question. Some people are like, What now? You know, I've done, but hang on a minute, what are you gonna do now? Yeah, you know, this is this is great. Now's the time.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

And you know what? This is another great topic for another podcast episode because that's another conversation I would love to have with you. We've talked about that one before as well. I just want to go back to the uh thinking that everyone is um miserable and sad as they age.

SPEAKER_00:

That's not what the literature shows us. Not in other countries. And no, not not even no, not everyone is miserable and sad. And we don't have to choose miserable and sad. This is really is a choice. And if you think of people in other countries and the cult the why the cultures perceive it, but no, I I choose not to sit in miserable or sad. I tell you what, like I'm 55 and I'm I'm I'm making plans, you know, it make plans. And we have this beautiful, it's time, you know, that there's more time to do what we want to do. We just gotta think about what that is, and if you're not even sure, go find someone that can help you, you know, really explore that and sit with you because you may never have had the chance to to even look at that and celebrate, one, celebrate what you've already done and what you've achieved in this amazing life and what you've overcome. Celebrate this life, but then go hang on a minute, you've got to keep climbing up the mountain and going moving towards your beautiful wise self who's already made it. And what would she tell you? Oh, you're 55, just sit there, sit on the ground and stop climbing up this mountain. No, she'd say, come on already, come on already. Use all those resources that you've gathered. So, menopause, go back to the social part. Menopause is not a social decline, it's a social refinement. So, through selectivity, emotional wisdom, and self-awareness, women can cultivate more nourishing, meaningful social eyes. So in the middle of life, we don't shrink, we distill. This is the time to distill to really crow the quality and the taste of ourselves in a sense and the the quality of it. But I would like um really to offer your audience to reflect and you, Karina, on reflect on which relationships energies you in your life right now, which drain you? Could you try on a reframe instead of I'm becoming less social? Try on I'm becoming more selective. How does that feel? Could you action or schedule one meaningful connection each week? So it's depth over breadth. How could you prioritize rest, self-care, and boundaries to protect emotional energy? And on a community or broader scale, how can we keep creating peer circles where women can share, laugh, and learn about menopause? Because I think that makes a big difference too. And as you were saying, there's people that you speak to that don't have anyone else or they haven't had anyone to talk about this in the past, and we know that this really helps. It changes the reframe around how people are perceiving themselves, but also how they're able to move forward into a really positive future.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. So that probably just brings me back to you know the the conversation that we started here today, and probably a couple of things that I want to throw out. If you are withdrawing and it's because you're avoiding situations that you know give you anxiety, or there is negativity around that, you're withdrawing because you're distressed, or if you're not withdrawing because you just enjoy your own company and you enjoy being at home and you, you know, would rather spend your energies elsewhere. So if there's negativity associated with it rather than staying home for a positive reason, then that that's probably a a good red flag that you just need to get in and have a chat with your health professional and talk about, you know, is this normal or abnormal? Does that sound fair?

SPEAKER_00:

Absolutely, and to just to check in like is it maladaptive or is it adaptive? It may be either way, and it's good to have someone to check in. Like, actually, is this okay? Is this normal or not? Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_03:

So I suppose it boils down to how it feels, doesn't it? Does this feel good? Because I'm telling you, for me, it feels pretty good on a Friday night with my book and my pajamas.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. So just to sort of have a reflection here, what's one myth that we were hoping or to debunk today, would you think?

SPEAKER_03:

Well, I love all of the things that you've said about the other cultures, and I think the myth that we're just miserable and sad as we age. Let's let's debunk that one. Yeah, or that it's all over, right? It's not. And and we're proving that. You know, I talked to you, didn't get to hear the intro, you'll get to hear it when you listen to this. Both of us have gone back and gotten more education in you know, this midlife period. It's not over, man. There's there's a whole second half waiting, right? That's the myth.

SPEAKER_00:

It's looking good. I'd like to debunk that it's the end of womanhood. No, it's not an ending, it's it's a refinement. And I love, I love the that we're gonna refine this more and more and that we're sitting here refining it now. And Karina, if um, menopause were a chapter title in a woman's life story. What would you call it?

SPEAKER_03:

Um it would be something like uh the second half. Let's kick ass and take names later.

SPEAKER_00:

I'm just gonna call it the power of pause. Yes. Yep. And I offer that to your listeners that menopause isn't about fading away. No, it's about focusing in on what matters, who matters, and the wisdom that's been growing all along. And menopause is not the closing of a door, it's the opening of a new chapter. So here we go: a time to step into clarity, strength, and self-trust around the world. Women have long understood this truth that change is sacred, and that wisdom, once earned, is a light for others to follow. So when society honors women in transition, the whole community grows wiser.

SPEAKER_03:

Absolutely. That's a great way to end our conversation today, Tasha. I am just so thrilled that we got to finally do this today. So thank you so much.

SPEAKER_00:

My pleasure.

SPEAKER_02:

The Up to Fride Podcast is designed for information purposes only and is not engaged in the giving of medical advice. The information provided on the podcast should not be used for diagnosing or treating a health problem or disease. In no way should the information provided by Up to Fride be considered medical advice, and at all times the advice of a medical professional should supersede recommendations from Up to Friday. If you have or suspect you may have a health problem, you should consult your healthcare provider. The views expressed in this podcast are purely that of Dr. Stand and do not in any way because those of the institution should contract the medical services too.

SPEAKER_01:

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Dr Corina Sims

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