The Handbook: The Operations Podcast

Rethinking performance, pay reviews & career growth with Zoe Blogg

• Harv Nagra • Season 1 • Episode 24

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Are performance reviews a waste of time—or your agency’s secret weapon?

Too often, agencies treat performance management as a checkbox exercise, bogged down with vague feedback and awkward salary conversations. But Zoe Elizabeth Blogg, Operations Director at Reboot Online, has built a system that actually works. 

From structured performance reviews to proactive (quarterly!) salary reviews, Zoe’s created a process that keeps teams engaged, managers confident, and top talent sticking around—all in a fully remote, four-day workweek agency.

In this conversation, Zoe breaks down how to make performance management meaningful and scalable.

Here’s what we dive into:

  • Why performance reviews fail—and how to make them useful (without the admin burden)
  • Why Reboot runs salary reviews four times a year—without turning them into negotiation battles
  • The key to training new managers so they lead with confidence, not confusion
  • How Reboot creates equally rewarding career growth paths for both individual contributors and managers.

Plus, Zoe shares impressive details on her line manager playbook, and structured career pathways.


Follow Zoe on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/zoeelizabethblogg/

Visit Reboot’s website: https://www.rebootonline.com/us/

Follow Zoe on TikTok: @fractionalzo

Follow Harv on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/harvnagra/


Stay up to date with regular ops insights. Subscribe to The Handbook: The Operations Newsletter.

This podcast is brought to you by Scoro, where you can manage your projects, resources and finances in a single system.

Harv Nagra (2):

Thanks for listening to The Handbook, the agency operations podcast. This podcast is brought to you by Scoro. Scoro is an agency platform that brings together your quoting, task, time and budget tracking, invoicing, and agency reporting. One reason I brought Scoro into my past agency and why I loved it so much was because we were a multi entity agency. We had different agencies in different countries and we needed a common platform that allowed us to collaborate across the group, have a single way of working, and have a central place where our agency was managed. Scoro goes beyond project management tools and covers the end to end life cycle of your projects from creating the quote through to getting your cash all automated and interlinked so you're not re entering information at each step. Sign up for a free trial at Scoro. com, and if you arrange a demo call, tell them Harv sent you. Now, back to the episode.​Hey y'all, welcome back to the podcast. Several years ago, I found myself going into a performance review that felt completely freestyle. There was no framework provided by my line manager. Just a loose conversation based on feelings. Well, if you don't give someone with an ops aptitude a framework, they're going to create it. I came into the review prepared. I had a keynote presentation showcasing my achievements, how I'd gone above and beyond my role and why I deserved a promotion. My line manager was caught off guard. All he could do was agree that yes, I was wonderful, great for me, but not so much for him and the agency. Fast forward to when I became a line manager at that same workplace. I realized that this freestyle approach wouldn't cut it. So along with a couple of colleagues who also had line management responsibilities, we built a structured new review process with open ended questions, rating scales for job descriptions and values, 360 degree feedback, and then, onto objectives. You name it, we added it. It was well intentioned. It was a reaction to having nothing there before. But it was heavy, especially for the line managers. Over time, it was streamlined. But I could still hear the groans whenever performance review season rolled around. Another challenge I've seen is the connection between promotions and the management career path. Promotions often get tied to management responsibilities, but let's face it, not everyone is cut out for it or even wants to manage people. Yet we push them into these roles without training and then we're surprised when it doesn't work out. Some people are incredible individual contributors. Innovative, creative, and effective. Why are we so slow to realize that? And shouldn't they have an equally exciting career path? So how do we fix all of this? How do we make performance reviews genuinely valuable? And how do we create compelling career paths for all individuals in our agencies, whether they're individual contributors or line managers. Our guest today has some great answers to those questions. We'll be speaking to Zoe Elizabeth Blogg, Operations Director at Reboot Online, a remote, multi award winning, search led marketing agency based in the UK. Zoe has a proven track record of scaling and nurturing teams, with a focus on creating environments where employees feel seen, valued, and empowered to excel. Her people first operation strategies and hands on leadership have not only earned Reboot multiple culture awards, but also resulted in exceptional talent retention in a workweek setup. Today we're going to dive into how Zoe builds clear career paths, manages performance, and handles salary conversations. Let's get into the conversation.

Harv Nagra:

Zoe, thank you so much for being here. It's a pleasure to have you with us.

Zoe Blogg:

Thank you. Thanks for inviting me.

Harv Nagra:

I love talking to Ops folks about how they got into the space. So I wanted to throw that over to you and tell us a bit about your journey into agency operations.

Zoe Blogg:

Of course, I've listened to a few of these podcasts, actually, and resonate with a lot of what people say. So my pathway has been very squiggly, I studied marketing at university and then ended up getting some agency jobs whilst at university, which was really beneficial. So my second and third year worked at startup agencies and creative agencies. And I guess I always gravitated towards trying to work in the Organize what was chaos, especially in a startup role And I think my managers saw that as well because every time I improved a workflow, you know They'd be like speak to zoe. She's done this with her job and maybe you could replicate that yeah, so sort of worked through that way ended up becoming a head of department about 25. Head of ops at 28 and landed in an ops director role at 30. Yes a bit windy, but i'm here now.

Harv Nagra:

I love what you said about that whole talk to Zoe. She'll, she'll kind of sort it out. I think that seems to be a trait, doesn't it? Like fixers and, uh,

Zoe Blogg:

very type A. So anything to do with organization, getting my job done and yeah, sort of found people were copying that quite a lot, but that's fine. Got me where I am.

Harv Nagra:

So we're talking today about career paths and managing performance. I was excited to talk to you about this because when we started speaking, I realized that you'd done a lot of really interesting work in this space. So lots for us to learn. But first, I was gonna ask you, how many good line managers you've had in your career?

Zoe Blogg:

I'd probably say I've had two really brilliant managers, like ones I've referred back to and some of the traits they did that I have tried to replicate.

Harv Nagra:

Mm hmm.

Zoe Blogg:

with I've worked at a lot of startups and I've often sat directly under founders. So what that's meant is although I've had a lot of autonomy in my role, which I do prefer I've ended up writing a lot of my own specs and

Harv Nagra:

Yeah.

Zoe Blogg:

my own roles. But the managers that stood out I think they genuinely listened to what I had to say. They always carved out Time for me and one to ones and they didn't move that time. So I knew I had 15 minutes on a Tuesday And it's not that

Harv Nagra:

Mm hmm.

Zoe Blogg:

stuff up for that meeting, but I knew it was there if I needed it and they also cared about my development. So I didn't feel like I was treading on toes with ideas. They helped me get promotions and work towards the operations role. And I think really Elsewhere, that lack of line management may be shaped how I approach line management today, and just make sure I always give time for people that, I'm looking after day to day. And yeah, so two is my answer.

Harv Nagra:

Mm hmm. I think for me as well, that there's probably a couple that come to mind, but there was a sense of, you know, Warmth coming from them, direction but not being prescriptive.

Zoe Blogg:

Warm is a good word. I think like approachability, just knowing that you can come to them. Sometimes the situations outside of work as well,

Harv Nagra:

mm hmm.

Zoe Blogg:

general personal

Harv Nagra:

Mm

Zoe Blogg:

but being able to sort of bring up if maybe today is not your best day or best week and they're able to help you approach that. and autonomy. I think I'd lean on that again. So if you've got a way of doing things, it's not their way or the highway, you can maybe tweak how you work. So yeah, for

Harv Nagra:

hmm.

Zoe Blogg:

come naturally to everyone, does it?

Harv Nagra (2):

Absolutely not. but we usually, when people are getting promoted, throw them into those duties. When you and I are saying we've had two good managers, those people may have intuitively had some of those skills, who knows, maybe they did have some training, but oftentimes it's not the case. How can agencies better support this?

Zoe Blogg:

Yeah, it's a good question. I think I fully agree on the area around maybe not getting training ourselves and it doesn't come naturally because when I'm working, especially with a lot of senior managers in the agency I'm at now or prior ones, I hear a lot like we have no training, we do it. So why can't they, you know, just crack on with it. And I think especially when agencies are so fast paced, training is often the first thing to go off the table, especially when budgets are being cut.

Harv Nagra:

Mm hmm.

Zoe Blogg:

it really is a cycle that needs to be broken. And really for Reboot, I've done quite a lot of work on this over the last year and just looking at our managers, who we've got in those positions and what we can do to set them up for success. I think I have written. A lovely, even though I say so myself, line manager playbook that outlines everything managers need. But what I have found is many people don't learn that way. And they don't go around reading, SOPs and playbooks that you put together. So another thing I do is make sure to carve out that time. So we have March Manager training. I think it's just the double M for me really works. And so every March, we're fully remote. So I make the effort to get people together normally in London. And we just have a bit of a sync, you know, what's working, what's not working, not sharing personal details or anything like that, but perhaps certain scenarios. I also have a manager basics course that I get everybody working towards manager role and a bit of succession planning going on and making sure that they've completed this course. And it is an external provider shout out to Mark, who does all of this, but it's a fantastic course. And I'm then confident knowing that all of our managers have had the same basic training. So how to give feedback, how to lead a one to one, I think really important and often gets overlooked. What is your manager style? What sort of manager are you? Like, what does it mean to be a manager? So we do all of that. And then I'd say additionally, probably because we are remote, we've got a dedicated Slack channel as well that the team can, again, ask questions, lean on. so I think as long as you've got some training in place and some general guidelines, I do really advocate for managers finding their own style and their own way of doing things.

Harv Nagra (2):

I love that. There's so much, so many interesting things there. So if somebody new has come in that has line management responsibilities, let's say they start in June, would they get some training in the meantime? And then it's kind of refreshed in March or what do you do with that kind of thing?

Zoe Blogg:

Yes. So say they start in June, they'd have their usual onboarding plan within the company, and part of that would form the line manager playbook. So they can read through that which has all the general structures, and I'll catch up with them personally, have a 1 to 1 with them and answer any questions. And they've also got historical access to the Slack channel, and they can go through that. Um, and then I do book them on to that manager basics course I mentioned, and we run that probably twice a year. It really depends how busy we are with hiring, but I'd say twice a year they can jump on a course. And that's why I say succession planning is so important because if you've got someone in mind that you think move into a manager role, I'd rather they just, do the course and they're covered.

Harv Nagra:

Yeah.

Zoe Blogg:

that's coming up and then March manager training day is

Harv Nagra:

Mhm.

Zoe Blogg:

a slot to get all managers together. And as I mentioned, like work through certain scenarios or something that's maybe been bothering them the last year as managers that they want more practice on. So. It's just nice and you get a free lunch out of it, which we can

Harv Nagra:

I love it.

Zoe Blogg:

never complain about.

Harv Nagra:

That is genuinely something that just, um, it just feels really inspiring and refreshing to hear that you provide that much support. But why do you think it is that we default into thinking that seniority and promotions comes with line management responsibilities? I think there's not enough awareness even of the individual contributor path.

Zoe Blogg:

I think the IC point you raised there is so true and actually like, hands up, I didn't really know it fully existed until I started working with recruiters that are bringing people forward saying, this person is amazing at what they do, but they don't want to manage people, or they perhaps don't have these skills, but I then really wanted them on my team, having seen what they can do, and looking for ways to structure that, I think to your point, and maybe Default promoting people into these manager positions is partly tradition, I think everyone feels like if you need to be promoted you have to manage people

Harv Nagra:

Right.

Zoe Blogg:

also a by product of startups as well. So as I mentioned earlier with my career path I started many agencies when there were like five or ten people And you have to be so hands on and wear loads of different hats and get stuck in. And I think traditionally that just filters upwards. So perhaps where you were flexible, you didn't really have those locked, rigid structures. And as an agency starts to scale, you are in a position where you can start thinking about different roles that would really benefit the agency. And I do think sometimes that's overlooked. And I think just because, as we mentioned, someone's great at their job, it doesn't mean being a manager is a natural next step, or that they even want to do it. you know, we put a survey out at reboot around that. Once I introduced the individual contributor roles and surprisingly 68 percent of the team said if this route's available, I don't want to be a manager. I want to stick at what I love. I love digital PR. I love technical sEO. That is what I want to do day to day. so I think it is really important that we start thinking about breaking away from these outdated structures and start to really recognize the value that these ICs can really bring to the agency and the impact they have rather than, This person's got 10 reports, you know, let's promote them further. don't get me wrong. If someone wants to be a manager, great. And I am ready to set them up for that success because we actually now need more managers at reboot because of the sheer amount of people that wants to stay with their day to day.

Harv Nagra:

Totally agree with you there. I think people's job satisfaction could drop if they're being forced to take on a role that they don't want, like those kinds of responsibilities. I've seen it where people don't have the aptitude and they don't have the interest. And when they're in that role, the people that are reporting to them are not happy because they tend to be, for various reasons, terrible at it.

Zoe Blogg:

Your question earlier, when you asked me about who are my top managers maybe some of those managers I had felt forced into that position. They perhaps didn't want to have those allocated slots. And then you end up learning those habits. and it's really hard to break people out of those habits. So when one of those people reporting in want to be a manager down the line, they might replicate, what those technical managers did and how they led one to one. So, you know, it isn't for every agency. I do think we have to acknowledge the fact there are many startup agencies out there with five or 10 people. And those new hires are crucial. And you are going to have people that can wear many different hats. But I think the sweet spot is when you get to around 30, 60 people, you can reall start thinking about, okay, who are my top performers? Who are really, driving our projects forward, impressing clients. And I don't want to take them away from that. And they don't want to be taken away from that. And who are people that perhaps actually aren't as technical, but they have a real way with people. They really, really want to be a manager and they've shown a lot of interest in, general basic training courses. They want to attend training days. And I've really found the best success in that. And we've really improved retention rates from working that way.

Harv Nagra:

Excellent. You know, People may struggle with being good managers when there's no training available because they haven't seen it. If you don't know any better and you haven't had somebody, show you a nicer, better way to get the best out of you, then it's really difficult to see how that person would then be able to inspire the people that they manage, right? So

Zoe Blogg:

so true. You don't know what good looks like until you've experienced it.

Harv Nagra:

Another challenge I've seen with kind of the individual contributor role is that even when those roles exist, it can get a bit muddled in terms of what the progression plan is. It's hard to understand how that person is going to move up in their role and through the agency. Have you done anything in this space to create career paths for those roles that are as rewarding as for the managers?

Zoe Blogg:

The murkiness of career paths is something I see often. I think because I recruit a lot for the agency. I do have people come to me in perhaps roles that are very broad, don't make much sense, they're a bit mixed on where they fit at their current agency, which is why they're looking to move.

Harv Nagra:

Mm hmm.

Zoe Blogg:

I think I noted earlier, like myself writing out my own job specs and pathways, because it was something I was always lacking. So for me, it was a real challenge to try to build out career pathways and packs that make sense for the agency I'm currently at with Reboot. And think it's important to know It's never going to be perfectly black and white, right? Sometimes you'll have talent that you really want to retain, and perhaps you'll slightly tweak their role to do so, you know, if business needs are there. but I think really, as you mentioned, for IC roles, it lacks the clarity or prestige that comes with some management positions. So people do feel forced to go into manager roles and they don't know where else they can go. So the career packs we've done for reboot, I've tried to make that clear. What we have is for every manager role is a corresponding IC position. So to put that into context, you might have a manager. So it's their first manager role and level with them is a specialist in that position. So I would expect a specialist to be able to perform at a manager level, but they're not looking after people. They can just run with the projects and get it done. Maybe join the old client call. And then for a senior manager, we've got a strategist and then for a head off, we've got an account director. So what the team can really see is that. Along these pathways is a parallel IC route and it comes with that same, reward, same salary bands. It's just different expectations. and I can dive into what these career packs look like if they're available you like.

Harv Nagra:

Absolutely. This is super cool to me that you've got these parallel streams going. Please tell us more.

Zoe Blogg:

Nice. So yes, the career packs actually, you know, stole a little bit from corporate. So my partner works at a bank and I think they're very good at having certain levels like A, B, C, D, H, etc.

Harv Nagra:

Yeah.

Zoe Blogg:

So I looked over there at what they've done with their leveling system and if you can visualize the career pack it's broken down into three boxes across the top and three down the left hand side and this can be changed depending on your agency. So along the top is levels, so you could call it A, B, C, but I've called it On Appointment, Competent and Experienced. And with those levels comes a salary bracket. So everyone in the agency can clearly see if I was to join this role On Appointment, I start on X. And if I was to become really experienced in this role, and this means, you know, no handholding doing my job day to day to the, top ability you might land on Experienced.

Harv Nagra:

Right. Okay.

Zoe Blogg:

And on the left hand side, split down into company understanding, behaviors and values. And then the bit that really changes is the role specific. So what you need to do in that role. So be it a tool, a certain skillset, the way you communicate with clients and everybody on the agency is placed in a pack, they're very clear on what level they're on, and they can see also, which I think is really important, packs across the other roles and maybe if they wanted to do a sideways move. So what we actually did in January was move digital PR execs to be content execs. And those career packs really aligned. It was very similar company understanding and behaviors. So all they had to work towards was the role specifics. So they did that, and moved across. So it has worked really well for us. It's reduced a lot of questions. People understand what they're working towards and they can go into their one to ones with their managers, with certain points that they want to discuss or work on to get them to that next level.

Harv Nagra:

Amazing. I haven't seen this done in such a meticulous way. The fact that the ICs have that clear progression visible and they know what they need to do to get to that next level, I think is, what's often missing. And creates this kind of anxiety that, okay, I don't have line management responsibilities, but where am I going to go next here? And it feels maybe like a bit of a dead end sometimes. So super, super interesting.

Zoe Blogg:

It's really good and it has as I say really helped with retention because before you might get people looking elsewhere, or, also looking elsewhere also looking if they wanted to be a manager and they felt all the manager positions were full because they You're an agency where they're promoting all the top performers into manager roles and you can't get those positions. So actually broadening out the opportunities for the team, you know, in operations, I would much rather be paying a handful of specialists doing their job and experience level. And then have a solid manager there than having people keep leave and I'm having to replace it at exec level So it has been really beneficial to have that for sure.

Harv Nagra:

Excellent. All right. So let's talk about performance reviews and performance management. I see the occasional article saying that you should be ditching performance reviews altogether. I don't know if I completely agree. do you think they're important?

Zoe Blogg:

Short answer. Yes. I do think they're important I've also read many an article so many different linkedin posts and got sucked into that You know who needs them who needs to spend the time, but actually I have settled on if you carve out that time and provided they're done, right really does help. As long as they're not a checkbox exercise, you can get a lot of value from leading them. Mm.

Harv Nagra:

It's not good to have the checkbox exercise because you're just wasting everyone's time. On the other hand, I also understand people's fear of the labor involved. So I think there's things that need to be done to make it feel as light as possible, but at the same time, it is a really important exercise for the business and for the individual.

Zoe Blogg:

It's super important, especially as you say, if you're getting value add at the bottom of it and actually doing something with that information. So as you said, there's a checkbox thing. So making sure you're not doing that and you're actually carving out the time and listening and having a genuine conversation. But then I think the question is, what are you then doing with that information afterwards and making sure managers can see it being used.

Harv Nagra:

Hmm.

Zoe Blogg:

We actually run through, I say, we our lovely HR manager, Fiona runs through and looks at themes that come out. Of those appraisals and then builds a bit of an action plan. And we have focus groups with managers to make sure we're getting that done.

Harv Nagra:

Excellent. So that leads us to our next question where I think you've made quite a few optimizations to your own annual review process. So, in order to get that to work, what have been the kind of biggest challenges and what have you done to overcome some of those?

Zoe Blogg:

The biggest one a hundred percent is time. You always hear in agencies, I don't have enough time. I don't want to be doing this. I've got client pitches come first. When can I fit this in?

Harv Nagra:

exactly.

Zoe Blogg:

I've had it in previous roles where I've been chasing for months. By which point it's was there actually any point in leading this review because I needed this data back in april, you know.

Harv Nagra:

Hmm. Mm

Zoe Blogg:

i've really tried to streamline it. I think the three key challenges are time, varying experience that your managers might have and an issue of trust as well, especially in smaller founder led companies What are my managers saying to my staff? Do I trust what they're saying? so I have tried to go through and answer all of these so I think time We've really stripped that down to look at twice a year slots. So we look at running them in April and October, and we just use a really simple platform called Charlie HR. Within that I've gone through and I've taken out any mention of salaries.

Harv Nagra:

Mm hmm.

Zoe Blogg:

sometimes line managers can be put in uncomfortable positions, trying to answer that. I've really led the appraisal with six questions sort of, you know, what value have you added to the company?

Harv Nagra:

Mm hmm.

Zoe Blogg:

Where do you see yourself in the next three months those sort of questions? So I know they're all being led in the same way.

Harv Nagra:

Right.

Zoe Blogg:

I think a great thing about Charlie HR, which honestly, I was a little bit unsure of initially, but I've come round to it, is that it prompts you to fill out the questions first. So the employee will answer the questions and the manager will answer the questions and both will be able to see that conversation in Charlie. And then the time is booked in so i've asked to keep them to about 30 minutes 40 max But what really helps is all that information is already in charlie, you can see what each other has said about one another and it's unbiased as well because you've been separated From that person. And it speeds up the conversation So you're really focusing on smart goals and putting that information down and really the manager can listen In those meetings, they're not scribbling away. So I think really it's just important that we're keeping the reviews simple and impactful and time efficient. we know what managers are asking and they know what they can and can't say in those reviews and employees know that as well.

Harv Nagra:

So twice a year, and then in terms of kind of setting objectives, does that come out of those conversations or how does that work?

Zoe Blogg:

So I always encourage line managers to reach out to, day to day managers and get a bit of a view of how the employees are working, but we work towards a SMART goal system.

Harv Nagra:

You were saying?

Zoe Blogg:

Charlie prompts you to fill in three objectives and ideally line managers are doing that off the back of career progression pathways, the ones we spoke through earlier. So you can see where said employee is in the competent role. You can see what they need to do to get to experienced. And my advice to managers, as you pick out like one company, understanding maybe one behavior and two, role specific, and then they can work on building out smart goals. And they've already had training and how to do those.

Harv Nagra:

Right.

Zoe Blogg:

they're pretty consistent across the board and that gets rid of that trust issue because I have found sometimes CEOs I've been in an agency where the CEO took all of them on themselves and were trying to lead these appraisals because their team was saying, I don't have time. They didn't trust that the manager was gonna give someone a 10 K pay rise and sort of run off with objectives. But then, you know, the CEO doesn't know what's happening day to day with the person. They can't really give constructive feedback. So I've really found it helpful to structure those appraisals, have set times, set questions, max. And I know for sure all my managers are trained in the basics. They know how to set a SMART goal and all the information is in the career pack. So you can't really Go wrong.

Harv Nagra:

That is really interesting. But why then twice a year for an exercise that people might already be feeling is overwhelming once a year? why do you think that's so important?

Zoe Blogg:

think it's super important, especially as we're a four day week, to make sure the team are really productive and they've always got a new goal to work towards. And I feel like honestly, and October came out of, you start a new year, you settle in. So by April, you've got the headspace and time to do that. And for October, really, it was leading up to the Christmas break, making sure, in the last quarter, we're giving all we possibly can and hitting all of those goals. But I think six months really is enough to be on track. But also have an idea of a new goal. And the team constantly feel like they're progressing towards something new, something more, they're not staying stagnant. Um,

Harv Nagra:

Hmm.

Zoe Blogg:

I think. any more than that, you end up running the risk of these routine check ins that, end up being tip box exercises. So I'm not saying you can't have a quick 15 minute with your team outside of these, but these performance reviews are purely on how are you doing in your role? Say you're on appointment, how do you become competent? And I really think it's important to do that before a year is up, to be honest. And salary reviews, like I mentioned, are completely. Separate. So you're not getting into all of that. You're purely talking about how can I be better in the role I'm in.

Harv Nagra:

You mentioned why it's important to take the salary reviews out of those conversations and I think that's fair. But, how do you then handle these?

Zoe Blogg:

So with our salary reviews, it's something new, actually, that I've been doing at this agency for the last year and a half now.

Harv Nagra:

Okay.

Zoe Blogg:

and I run talent mapping exercises with the senior leadership at the end of every quarter. So I am a complete sucker for a good playbook. So of course there's a career development playbook that goes alongside this. So the team know when I'm looking to review salaries and they know that the next month after that, review would be the, update in pay. So if anyone was to put them forward to say like March, they would know that April would be when that's all approved in the budget and they might get their increased pay.

Harv Nagra:

hmm.

Zoe Blogg:

The reason I do this is one, because I've been a manager myself in appraisals where it's ended up being all about pay, and not about general performance or where the agency is going. And it completely distracts the agency. From the conversation. And sometimes as an early manager, you can feel really uncomfortable.

Harv Nagra:

Mm hmm.

Zoe Blogg:

and you're actually a bit worried to go into these sessions and sometimes you can panic and say something on the spot like, Oh yes, I'll put this forward. And you regret that you've said that and you actually wanted to give, some constructive feedback. So I've taken that out. and I find Once a year sometimes isn't enough. Sometimes, especially in those internship roles or junior position roles, people do move up relatively quickly. And if you're in a startup agency, sometimes, you know, you need to move people through the ranks as well. I'd say Essentially with them being at the end of every quarter the entire team is very clear on how our compensation process works They know how to put themselves forward for said review And then I can do that myself for senior leaders and I'll look at key information. When was their last pay rise? When were they promoted last and we can try and be proactive about it. And that proactivity is also really helpful retention. I think the last thing I want is for a key a star, player to be looking for another role because they didn't know how and when they could grow. and then we're almost counter offering when they come to us saying they're leaving. So I'm pretty confident with this process, knowing that I'm paying everyone what I feel they deserve to be paid. I'm on top of it and we don't have top team members waiting an entire year or more for a salary increase.

Harv Nagra:

Super interesting. So it doesn't necessarily mean that a certain individual would be, set up for four pay rises in a year, but just that you have a more frequent cycle of reviews in case you need to bump somebody up because of X, Y, Z reason.

Zoe Blogg:

yeah, definitely. I would say we've not had anyone come forward for four pay rises in a year. Although, you know, if someone was working through really quickly, I wouldn't be against doing that if they were hitting all the boxes. But yeah, it just allows us really to remain proactive, to keep on top of when people are being paid, what they're after that way. And also, I suppose on the flip side, A year can sometimes get long if we're doing them every quarter As an employer some i've had sometimes people go a year and a half Maybe two years without a pay rise, but they understand where they're sat. What level they're at and what they need to do to get more and it's allowed me as an an employer to pull out that timeline a little longer because they know i'm reviewing every quarter Um, and it doesn't mean you're having those conversations every quarter their name might not come up Um, or they might not put themselves forward, but everybody knows that time slot is there and they can do that. So it has actually helped us to reduce the conversations. We've not actually had as many people come forward as I thought we might. Mm And that proactive approach is actually more often than not the way I end up doing things. It's often me coming to people saying, you know, it looks like you're working around here after speaking with your manager. This is what we're gonna move you on to. but yeah, there are benefits for the employer as well. I think if you're doing them once a year, people almost expect to receive an increase, at that time every single year. And a big one for operations as well as it helps with the P and L because our bumps are spread out across the year. You're not getting these huge lump sums in May when I've given everyone, a 10% increase. So there's some real benefits to the approach so far. Yeah.

Harv Nagra:

I haven't heard anybody having those frequent, increments for review, but I can definitely see the benefit, so well done. And I think, with these quarterly reviews, it puts the onus back on the individual. They know what they need to do, whereas in the annual thing, it becomes a really almost like a desperate hope for everyone that I hope this is done. Whereas now you're saying, you know what you need to do to get to that level. So, you know, do it.

Zoe Blogg:

There have definitely been more productive and thoughtful conversations that have come around for it when people have put themselves forward. And I do say as well, always have your line manager backing. So anyone that's putting themselves forward, they've spoken to their line manager follows up and says, yes, I agree with this. And it's just, it's a much easier conversation. And as you say, it puts the onus on the person to get it done.

Harv Nagra:

Do you do any external benchmarking on salaries?

Zoe Blogg:

Yes, so in our career progression playbook, we note that in February every year we'll do a benchmarking exercise. So unless anything major happens in the economy, February is a good time for us to sit back and review. So I do collate all these benchmark reports. I think there's one literally called the benchmark report in agencies that I get together and we've got a few key external recruiters we use that I might reach out to and say, Hey, What's going in the market? What are you seeing right now in the agency? How does this sound to you? I do find you tend to have to go with your own sort of information first And then they'll come back and a bit of finger in the air and where that sits So we do make an effort to do that. I would say specifically for roles like digital PR. It's really hard Because the roles are very different at different agencies. It's quite niche. So it's a lot easier to find, you know, graphic designer rates, maybe developer rates. But when you're really getting into what it means to be a tech SEO or digital PR, I think some of that does have to come from, your own understanding of the team as well. So yeah, a bit of a mix in terms of what we do, but it's all transparent for the team. And I do encourage people to come to me if they've seen a resource with a certain set budget. to come to me and highlight that because one of the difficulties we have is we're spread all over the UK. So there's London salary and then there's where I am, Leeds salary, it's very different unfortunately,

Harv Nagra:

Mm hmm.

Zoe Blogg:

to work out a balance there as well.

Harv Nagra:

Mm hmm. First of all, Zoe, you've thought of everything so I need to get a copy of these playbooks. This sounds amazing. I love that, how thorough you are about things. I mean, I'm gonna go on a, just a very quick tangent. that whole thing about like the London salary versus the rest of the country. If someone moves out of the city, is that then adjusted? Have you ever had to deal with that kind of situation?

Zoe Blogg:

That's a very good question we've had it the opposite way Yeah. So I've had people move to London. And then flag they've moved and this is what they've seen. This is London salary By standard we do try to go on London rates because that's where agency was established So I guess then it puts people like me in a fortunate position where i'm on more of a London salary But I'm based in Leeds, but I guess that is my own choice. And then, it gives people the freedom to move around. So I've definitely had it the opposite way, but we wouldn't be in the habit of, reducing rates. And I think it's also important to highlight, we're four day week. We don't work Fridays, but our pay isn't prorated either. it's the full salary. So very lucky

Harv Nagra:

Yeah. Amazing. So a couple of questions now, first is you mentioned being fully remote and the other is four day work week. So fully remote, sometimes I hear, four day work week in an agency I don't hear very often at all. So congrats on that. Tell us a bit about both of those. Have you always been fully remote and when and why did you decide to do the four day work week?

Zoe Blogg:

no, we've not always been fully remote, that came out of COVID. silver linings from a time that I know was difficult for many. Mm The agency grew rapidly during that time from around 20 ish to 55 people. And rather than expand the office space that they had, in London, the team went fully remote because we saw that we could do it. And then the 4 day week came from our founders, Shia and Naomi. They are huge on well being and just having that work life balance because they started the agency to get out of roles where they perhaps felt like they didn't have that freedom or autonomy and they were working. Rather than living, so they initially started that. I think one of the things we're known for at Reboot is our experiments. And we've got a whole page of that on our website. The different SEO experiments we lead, but also culture experiments. with the 4 day week. yeah, Shire is extremely data led and, as am I and Ops and it's increased our productivity by, it was 702 percent on the

Harv Nagra:

Wow.

Zoe Blogg:

that we did it and it's settled at around 306, I think we're on now. so the numbers speak for themselves,

Harv Nagra:

That is incredible.

Zoe Blogg:

go back anytime soon.

Harv Nagra:

very cool. Well done on that. And what a perk for people as well, as in terms of a benefit, it's hard to match when you get a three day weekend every week.

Zoe Blogg:

Exactly. I would really struggle to give my Fridays

Harv Nagra:

Yeah.

Zoe Blogg:

now. I think I've got used to it eventually.

Harv Nagra:

Exactly. so Zoe, this has been really interesting and lots of inspiration there about things that you're doing really well that hopefully the rest of us can take something from and emulate. But if anybody wants to pick your brain and hear from you and, get some advice, where can they reach out to you and learn a bit more?

Zoe Blogg:

So the best platform really is LinkedIn. that

Harv Nagra:

Mm hmm.

Zoe Blogg:

I've also been experimenting with TikTok actually. So

Harv Nagra:

Oh, cool.

Zoe Blogg:

fractional Zoe is my handle.

Harv Nagra:

Oh, nice.

Zoe Blogg:

or you can visit Reboot online and send me a direct email through there.

Harv Nagra:

Excellent. Very good. We'll put links to all of the above in the episode notes. Zoe, such an inspiration. thank you so much for being here. And, I look forward to speaking to you again soon.

Zoe Blogg:

Amazing. Thank you for your time. It's been great. And yeah, catch up soon.

Harv Nagra (2):

how good is Zoe? You know you're an OPS nerd when you get excited talking about tables laying out job responsibilities. But seriously, I thought all of that was so interesting and so well executed. There was so much great stuff Zoe was doing That I'm going to recap it for you here. First, she has a plan for training new line managers, including her own line manager playbook, but also puts them on external training in addition to the management training days they hold in March in house. She has a career pathways pack for each role, including that matrix I was referring to a moment ago. Next for each manager role, she has a corresponding individual contributor role. I can't be the only one impressed with that. That is so good. Then onto performance reviews. She runs those twice a year And salaries get reviewed four times a year. That is incredible. You don't need to scribble down notes. Sign up for the handbook newsletter at scoro.com/podcast, where we'll send you a cheat sheet of the takeaways from each episode, so you've got something to reference. Now, who do you know that would benefit from hearing today's conversation on career paths and performance reviews? Please send them the episode and ask them to listen and subscribe. And if you haven't already and enjoy listening to The Handbook, please rate the podcast on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'll be back with the next episode soon. Thanks so much.

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Harv Nagra

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