The Handbook: The Operations Podcast

How to Get Clients to See You as a Strategic Partner with Max Traylor

• Harv Nagra • Season 1 • Episode 25

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Most agencies add value far beyond execution. They develop methodologies, frameworks, and strategic thinking that help clients make better decisions. But too often, they give that thinking away for free. Only to compete on price when it’s time for execution.

Max Traylor has spent years helping agencies break this cycle. He’s an expert in packaging and selling strategy, helping agencies move from order takers to trusted advisors. In this episode, Max shares how to stop the race to the bottom and start getting paid for what you know, not just what you do.

Here’s what we cover:

  • Why giving away strategy in proposals undervalues your expertise, and how to change that
  • How to stop being seen as a vendor and build stronger relationships with decision-makers
  • The first steps to productizing your strategy and selling it as a standalone offer

Plus, Max explains how agencies can gain access to high-level conversations, avoid being “vendorified,” and turn strategy into a scalable revenue stream.


Additional Resources:

Download Max’s book, Agency Survival Guide: https://www.maxtraylor.com/book 

Follow Max on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/maxtraylor/

Follow Harv on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/harvnagra/


Stay up to date with regular ops insights. Subscribe to The Handbook: The Operations Newsletter.

This podcast is brought to you by Scoro, where you can manage your projects, resources and finances in a single system.

Harv:

Thanks for listening to The Handbook: The Agency Operations Podcast. This podcast is brought to you by Scoro. Scoro is a PSA or professional services automation platform. Don't blame me. I did not come up with that label, but yeah it's easy for those of us in agencies to forget that ultimately we are professional services businesses in the business of selling time. A PSA platform helps your agency take a leap in maturity from disjointed tools and spreadsheets that don't talk to one another, to a single source of truth for your business. Bringing together quoting, project and time tracking, invoicing and reporting into one beautiful place so you don't have to spend your time looking up or copying and pasting data from several different places. I left my job as an in house ops director to work for Scoro because I was so impressed. Sign up for a free trial at scoro.com or if you arrange a demo call, tell them Harv sent you. Now let's get to the episode.

Harv Nagra:

Hey all, welcome back to the podcast. Today's topic is one I've wanted to cover for a while. As our agencies grow up, a lot of us start moving beyond just deliverables. The website, the logo, the campaign, and into strategy. We develop methodologies, frameworks, and ways of thinking that add value to our clients. But selling that thinking, that's where a lot of us get stuck. Too often, we give it away in proposals and pitches, laying out the roadmap for free, and hoping to recover some of the cost in the final quote. When the client keeps the deck full of ideas, but doesn't sign off the project, that really stings. Lately, I've also seen more agencies rebranding as consultancies, hoping that label alone Is going to justify higher fees, but if your process hasn't changed, if you're still pricing like a vendor, competing on execution and haven't figured out how to sell your strategy, you're not actually capturing the value of your expertise. But the truth is, clients don't just need someone to do the work, they do need someone to help them think about it, to shape their approach, and make better decisions. When we don't charge for that thinking, we reinforce the idea that strategy is free. So how do we stop the race to the bottom on deliverables and start getting paid for the real value we bring? How do we start to position ourselves as true partners and not just suppliers? That's what we're going to be tackling in today's episode. Our guest today is someone who spent years helping agencies stop giving away their best thinking for free. Max Traylor is a consultant, speaker, and author who specializes in helping agencies get access to decision makers at client accounts, as well as package their knowledge into something scalable, so they can sell strategy, not just execution. He's the host of Beers with Max where he's had unfiltered conversations with some of the best minds in consulting and marketing. I had the pleasure of going on his show to talk about business maturity a few months ago. And he literally wrote a book on this, Agency Survival Guide. So today, we're going to dig into why so many agencies struggle to monetize their best expertise, what it really takes to shift from vendor to trusted advisor and how to stop leaving money on the table. Let's talk to Max. I'm really glad to have you here. first of all, I had the pleasure of joining you on your show a little while ago, and we were sipping, we were, well, we were drinking beers. Sadly, I've got a glass of water with me today. Anything more interesting going on your side?

Max Traylor:

Uh, I've got a liquid death,

Harv Nagra:

Oh, right, that's your fancy water, isn't it? Nice one.

Max Traylor:

is a fancy water, and if I went back in time, I would start a fancy water company,

Harv Nagra:

Do you think?

Max Traylor:

have it going

Harv Nagra:

yeah,

Max Traylor:

like I have one of the machines that turns the water into bubble water.

Harv Nagra:

yep.

Max Traylor:

And I'm just thinking, these things are like three dollars. So, it's, we could have been cleaning it up. This shows us that marketing still has a place in the world because can take water, plus packaging and branding distribution. They gotta be doing something right. Uh, uh, placement. So those four P's that we all used to talk about back in the day. Good for them.

Harv Nagra:

it is good business. So, Max, I had the pleasure of reading your book, Agency Survival Guide, recently. And I found it really, really inspiring. So first of all, shout out to you for writing that and well done. You've got a couple of books now, don't you? And a couple in that series as well. Agency Survival Guide.

Max Traylor:

Yeah. Yeah. I, uh, it, I could never finish the first book because I was always coming up with new ideas.

Harv Nagra:

Yeah.

Max Traylor:

So I just told myself, I'm going to write one book many times.

Harv Nagra:

Nice.

Max Traylor:

And that was easy.

Harv Nagra:

Excellent.

Max Traylor:

I just cut it off.

Harv Nagra:

Yeah.

Max Traylor:

all right, all ideas from now on will be in,

Harv Nagra:

Volume 2, and so on. Cool, very cool.

Max Traylor:

I'm on, I'm on the third book. Yep. And for the last couple of years, I've been really focused on growing client accounts.

Harv Nagra:

Mm.

Max Traylor:

As agencies get larger, there's a revenue pole shift, uh, you know, how, like they said, uh, way, like millions of years ago, there was a pole shift on earth...

Harv Nagra:

Mm. Yep.

Max Traylor:

that's why the oceans went crazy and all this. So as an agency gets larger, they believe there's a revenue pole shift because when you're small, new accounts have a much greater impact on the overall, uh, agency revenue than growing accounts.

Harv Nagra:

Mm.

Max Traylor:

because there's only a few accounts to grow.

Harv Nagra:

Right.

Max Traylor:

But as you get larger and as there become more accounts, it becomes a larger opportunity to grow accounts...

Harv Nagra:

mm.

Max Traylor:

Than it does to add new accounts because every new account that you add is like, Oh, great, you increased revenue by 1%.

Harv Nagra:

Yep.

Max Traylor:

know, we've got a hundred clients now.

Harv Nagra:

yeah.

Max Traylor:

you can grow a hundred clients by 20%,

Harv Nagra:

Yep.

Max Traylor:

so I've been really, I've been really hammering that and digging into, you know, how can basic relationship building and consultative selling be applied to the service team? And so that we don't see the service team as just a net loss and a hospice program for clients.

Harv Nagra:

before we get into it, max, I don't know, if in the States, like, has the agency market been a bit difficult? Cause like, certainly in the UK, that has...

Max Traylor:

Yeah, 20, 23, and 24 were trash.

Harv Nagra:

Okay. So we're speaking the same language in terms of like the challenges. There's this big fear about like AI and everyone's scared of what that's going to mean. and there's so much competition out there. I was talking to a friend just yesterday where he was talking about like, when they go to pitch, they are pitching against the agency that is the cheapest and nobody wants to compete against them. So it becomes like a race to the bottom in terms of pricing. I guess my point is like, even when agencies try to position themselves as premium or strategic, sometimes they find themselves pitching against those guys. is there a way you think you can get out of this trap?

Max Traylor:

yeah. Stop, uh, pitching Stop the work first. Yeah. Uh, so this is pretty unanimous across agency advisors. I think the most prominent is probably David Baker, with, if you've read his book, business of expertise, or listen to really anything he talks about only let people through the strategy door

Harv Nagra:

Okay.

Max Traylor:

because all of the new agencies that are going to undercut you on any sort of deliverable content, website production, whatever, they're going to undercut you on that.

Harv Nagra:

Okay.

Max Traylor:

So you can't play this... What my dad always said, if, you know, if you, if you want to win the game. Don't play. Uh, well, maybe I'm mixing my analogies anyway, he said something like that.

Harv Nagra:

Okay.

Max Traylor:

the point is that when you have the experience, you can sell your experience.

Harv Nagra:

Yeah.

Max Traylor:

You can say, look, you're getting pitched by agencies that are undercutting you. the brief is really non existent. Like you're not even at the point where you can. Realistically make a good buying decision. Hmm. So let us help you clarify what your business objectives are. Let us help you, understand what a proper budget would be, what real expectations over the next six, nine months would be, because all those people that are undercutting you, they've never even had a client for nine months. Everything they're telling you is BS.

Harv Nagra:

Yep.

Max Traylor:

So you sell the thing that they don't have, which is experience And, and you say, look, fine, go ask that agency that's, that's, uh, cheaper.

Harv Nagra:

Yep.

Max Traylor:

Go ask them to talk to the person that's gonna take care of your account, because I guarantee you it's somebody super junior, Mm and gonna, uh, you're never gonna talk to the principal that you've got confidence in right now.

Harv Nagra:

Yep.

Max Traylor:

And then go look at their LinkedIn profiles and look at how long they've been doing this. Those are the two things. So you, you know, you go and, if after those two things, you still want to hire them, then, God bless.

Harv Nagra:

Mm. That is a really good point because I think a lot of agencies might take it the other way, they start with the positioning. So, and I think that's pretty easy to do on the surface level. you start calling yourself a consultancy, you start adding a strategy offer if you've never had one and think that's job done. But I think, first of all, that doesn't change anything in the perception in terms of the client, the client doesn't care you've called yourself a consultancy on your website and that you've started.

Max Traylor:

The proof is in the people.

Harv Nagra:

Yeah.

Max Traylor:

So you've got a strategy offer. You're a strategist, show me their LinkedIn profile, show me that they've had experience in my industry. So, yes, cuz I help people do this on the, cause I help people do for ten years, productise their services and position themselves. Um, Um and so but I think clients are beginning to realize that, that there is no barrier to saying you do these things. Um, you can fake case studies. Like it's all, it all can be faked. Like I don't trust any of the, restaurant reviews anymore. No way. They're clearly fake. So what you can't fake or what is very difficult to fake is literally you've been doing this for 10 years. And everyone's LinkedIn profile shows exactly how long you've been in the workforce. It shows exactly your roles. So when people are like, oh, I'm a fractional CRO, and six months ago they were an SEO consultant for a ten person agency that's two years old? No. No, no, no. You're not allowed to do that.

Harv Nagra:

But I wonder, if there's also something there about adding just that strategy offer, not changing anything else is maybe not enough. You know, just thinking back to your book, you were talking about like needing to position yourself as the decision maker rather than the order takers.

Max Traylor:

Yeah. I mean, you, you have to, you have to be it right. Like I told, I, I called my dad, and said, when I was trying to get this job and I was frustrated and I was like, dad, I can't get a job. He said, well, Max, what do you want to do? And I said, I want to be a consultant. And he paused, was on the phone and then he said, okay, congratulations. You're a consultant. Cause all that means is you make up the price. Like you can't change your client's perception of you until you change your own perception.

Harv Nagra:

Mm.

Max Traylor:

You are an advisor. You are a consultant. The most valuable thing that you sell and deliver is your knowledge. You have to believe that. And so when you're on the phone with a client and they say, Hey, what do you do for people? And you say, well, the most valuable thing I do for people is I create a plan for them. And that's what that first book was about is sell the plan.

Harv Nagra:

Hmm.

Max Traylor:

Because we all, uh, we all do the planning. The most valuable thing that we can do by the way is the plan.

Harv Nagra:

Right.

Max Traylor:

And we give away the plan in the, in the sales process.

Harv Nagra:

And the pitch.

Max Traylor:

And what we're telling our clients is that our planning is not valuable. Because we didn't charge for it.

Harv Nagra:

Mm hmm.

Max Traylor:

What a client will do is they will look at the number on the proposal. There's a dollar sign. And then they will look at the words next to that dollar sign. And that's what you are to them. That is your identity. So you could talk about being a strategic partner to your clients all you want. You could have 25 strategic conversations. If the word next to the number says website, it says content, it says SEO, it says anything tactical, you are a replaceable vendor, and as a vendor, you do not get an invite to the decision maker table. It's a conflict of interest. You're not going to ask a website developer what they should spend more money on.

Harv Nagra:

Mm.

Max Traylor:

You know what the answer is going to be.

Harv Nagra:

Yeah.

Max Traylor:

So it's, it's all, it's all about, believing in yourself and then creating that perception and the reality that the most valuable thing you do for clients is give them access to your knowledge.

Harv Nagra:

I really love that, Max. so my question is like, when you're thinking about this, is there two levels there? Cause the client might come to somebody with a brief on a particular project, right? So there's this strategy that's involved in that project. So, I'm just wondering if you're saying that can also be part of what you do or, you know, I think what I was getting from reading your book was that you should also try to get in and be sitting with the client making all the decisions about all their projects. Is there two levels or do you, are you suggesting just go for that big one?

Max Traylor:

There are transactional clients and there are strategic clients. There, there are clients, I'm not going to use the word, but there are a certain type of someone.

Harv Nagra:

Yeah.

Max Traylor:

That, well, it rhymes with narcissist.

Harv Nagra:

Yeah.

Max Traylor:

That will always see you as lesser than them. And so you could say, look, I'm a strategist and you really need help with the planning till you're blue in the face. they're going to go, no, no I'm the brilliant decision maker here. I wear the pants and I've got$20, 000. would you like the$20, 000 to do this tactical thing?

Harv Nagra:

hmm. Mm

Max Traylor:

And as a business owner, You have to decide if you're willing to take that.

Harv Nagra:

hmm.

Max Traylor:

Now, before COVID, when I wrote that book,

Harv Nagra:

Yeah.

Max Traylor:

I was on team do not take that business.

Harv Nagra:

Mm.

Max Traylor:

but boy, did that change. And it didn't change in the first two years after COVID everything was fine. Agency business got better in 21, 22, Okay. but 23 and 24, budgets tightened up It's the era of do more with less.

Harv Nagra:

Mm-hmm

Max Traylor:

lot of businesses are going, look, I have to take that$20, 000 to do the tactical thing. Um, and so, now I'm on team... Look, that's fine. Take the business, but don't sacrifice your process. Let's take websites. For example, websites are a miserable experience in my opinion, but if done correctly, they can lead to a better relationship. So if a client says, I want you to build my website and you say, well, I'd really like to start with strategy first to make sure, that is actually going to have the biggest impact on your business. Uh, you know, we'll look at some other things. Strategic clients will go, wow, thank you. I would like to clarify the business case for this extremely expensive website. mm Other clients will say, nope. We're good. Do you want the 20 grand for the website or not? So those are clients that need to feel like they're in control. With those clients you say perfect. We're the we're the we're the best company to do your website, Sign here. Would you like to You know learn about our process or are you ready to just get started because even for a tactical project do not sacrifice your process. You're still going to do strategic work. You're still going to do, uh, I call them an alignment workshop, but understand where that website fits in the context of their other marketing activity in the context of their business strategy.

Harv Nagra:

Mm-hmm

Max Traylor:

I don't care what you're being signed on for. Do the strategy first.

Harv Nagra:

Yeah.

Max Traylor:

I've just become a lot more open to how you get that initial deal because people are hurting, uh, from 23 and 24.

Harv Nagra:

Yeah, so I was gonna say, for somebody that hasn't, uh, read the book that was kind of the point that you should focus on being the strategic partner and not touch implementation.

Max Traylor:

I mean, profit gets harder, the more implementation work that you do. That's all. as long as you have that warning, know, like skydiving is dangerous. I'm not going to tell professional skydivers to stop doing what they love,

Harv Nagra:

Yeah.

Max Traylor:

but don't come to me and say, Oh, I can't believe Darren broke both his legs. I'm like, you're jumping out of plane.

Harv Nagra:

Mm.

Max Traylor:

taking on that risk. You know what I mean?

Harv Nagra:

Yeah.

Max Traylor:

So, uh, yeah, I mean, great, make your money.

Harv Nagra:

Mm hmm. Mm

Max Traylor:

But in, in a professional service, low margin business, which is high, that's what agencies are...

Harv Nagra:

hmm.

Max Traylor:

churn and upsell are the thing. That's what you live and die by. And if you're, if you're perceived as a tactical marketing person,you're not going to get into conversations and opportunities for upsell.

Harv Nagra:

Yeah.

Max Traylor:

just not.

Harv Nagra:

Mm hmm.

Max Traylor:

So even when 90% of your business is tactical implementation, you still have to have a way to have grownup business conversations. And the easiest way to do that is to sell your expertise. Because if your clients are paying for your expertise, they're going to bring their decision makers.

Harv Nagra:

Mm.

Max Traylor:

it's also, you know, if you've got big accounts, if a client is paying you million dollars a year and you say, look, I, I really want your entire, uh, leadership team to come to this workshop to make sure that you're getting the most out of your million dollars. Yeah. They're going to pay attention. But challenge is in that middle area where they're going to perceive you and try to marginalize you as just, Oh, you're, you're just this, you know, you're just these marketing people that do our bidding and you have that point of contact that's always the gatekeeper. And they don't want to let you talk to their boss or someone in sales. And so it's just, it's, it's just ridiculous. And, uh, And it's like a hospice program. You're just waiting for that client to die. And so we've gotta, we've gotta like not just deliver. We've got to recognize that the biggest sales opportunity is within those clients. So how do we upskill ourselves? How do we change perception?

Harv Nagra:

Yeah.

Max Traylor:

How do we get access to some of those other budget holding decision makers so that we can grow those accounts?

Harv Nagra:

Yeah, Max, that's what I wanted to get into next. It's like, how do you even get your foot in the door to start doing this? Maybe you can just outline that a little bit more. Cause you might have these existing relationships with clients that have done business with you in the past and somebody new comes to you with a full RFP, right. So how do you start indicating that this is going to be like a separate stage and it's going to be paid and we're not doing all of this strategy beforehand as part of the proposal that we're putting in.

Max Traylor:

Um, well, so, so these are, these are like the signals that you sent. So the first one that I look for is the roles.

Harv Nagra:

Okay.

Max Traylor:

Right. So even if you're not charging for it, let's, let's say you've got it. You've had a client for 10 years, most agencies haven't had clients for 10 years, but let's say you've spent 10 years telegraphing Mm that you're a, uh, a tactical, know, uh, agency that draws their pictures,

Harv Nagra:

Yeah.

Max Traylor:

get, let's get crazy with it. We draw your pictures, you know, we're super marginalised. We're like kept in a dark room somewhere.

Harv Nagra:

Uh huh.

Max Traylor:

Question is, how do we get conversations with, say, the head of sales...

Harv Nagra:

hmm. Mm

Max Traylor:

Who thinks we're crayon pushers and don't deserve our time of day.

Harv Nagra:

hmm.

Max Traylor:

So the first is roles.'cause someone's gonna have to reach out to that person.

Harv Nagra:

Yeah.

Max Traylor:

And if the someone that reaches out to that person, is, Corey, the crayon pusher, they're gonna be no way. so I would look at the roles.

Harv Nagra:

Okay.

Max Traylor:

The easiest way to get to somebody is to have a role that speaks to them.

Harv Nagra:

Hmm.

Max Traylor:

Hey, I'm the head of sales. I'm the head of sales at my agency. I'm the agency sales advisor. Um, I'm the growth advisor, just something that says, I know the position you're in, and we're not going to have some tactical conversation about marketing. So the, the roles is one of the first things, uh, that I look at and you can't fake roles. You can't say, Oh, I'm the sales growth advisor. And then your last four titles were Corey, the crayon pusher.

Harv Nagra:

Yeah Yeah

Max Traylor:

This is where there's often a gap in expertise. And so for some agencies, you have to get the agency principal involved. Cause if you're running a business, generally you're, uh, you know, you've got the gravitas, you've got access to have a grownup conversation with other business owners. You're in the business owner club. It doesn't matter what kind of business, you're in the business owner club. Um, so, you know, a lot of agencies pride themselves that our founder, uh, our agency principal has gotten out of services.

Harv Nagra:

Yeah

Max Traylor:

That's all fine in principle, but they are like professor upsell. So we got to design some experiences where they can come in simply to get the presence of the client's budget holding decision makers. I would recommend that happens on a quarterly basis.

Harv Nagra:

Okay

Max Traylor:

you've got to have, a reason for them to go that is more than just, Oh, so and so is going to be there. Cause otherwise, why wouldn't you just pick up the phone and call that person? So the universally valuable thing Mhm to any client, any client's decision maker, and ultimately you want to get, if you're marketing, you want to expand your relationships to sales, product, and finance.

Harv Nagra:

Mhm

Max Traylor:

Those are like the four horsemen, the, the, the three, uh, other areas where you could, uh, where you could get budget from. And so you have to find something universally valuable that you can talk about that benefits all four of those departments. Has nothing to do with marketing.

Harv Nagra:

Mhm

Max Traylor:

But if you can, this is why I love industry benchmarks, because if you come to the table and you say, Hey, we've been researching, and we've got insights on what your buyers are spending money on their challenges, their opportunities, the trends in their industry. Everyone's going to go. Yeah, I want to know that...

Harv Nagra:

I love that

Max Traylor:

this is why agencies do annual events for all of their, uh, for all of their clients.

Harv Nagra:

They bring

Max Traylor:

industry research. You can incorporate that into your quarterly business reviews. You can incorporate that into a, uh, a separate, uh, sort of a virtual event for your clients. Um, but we have to think outside of our marketing box and think, okay, how can we add value to everybody? And I think research and buyer insights is probably the easiest first step.

Harv Nagra:

Right. Okay. So you got your foot in the door. You've had those conversations. You demonstrate that value and then you've got that relationship so you can start selling your strategic...

Max Traylor:

Well, you've got access. I wouldn't say you've got the relationship yet.

Harv Nagra:

Okay.

Max Traylor:

Um, because first you need access, and then they need to tell you what's important to them, which is also why I love research, because if they want to contribute to the research, it, you know, it'll make it better. So...

Harv Nagra:

good point.

Max Traylor:

You're gonna ask the head of product, you're gonna ask the head of sales, you're gonna ask the head of finance. Hey, what are your biggest challenges? What are the things that are on your roadmap for the year? That's where the upsell opportunities come, and that's what the best relationships are based off of is how can I is when somebody perceives that you understand what is most important to them. And that's the first step is to get them talking about what is most important to them. And I guarantee it has nothing to do with marketing.

Harv Nagra:

Hmm.

Max Traylor:

Your job is to listen and create that bridge.

Harv Nagra:

Yeah.

Max Traylor:

Hey, you're launching a new product. That's, that's the biggest thing on, you know, on your milestone. How can we help? Maybe we could do some buyer research to tell you if they liked the color purple or the color blue, would that be helpful?

Harv Nagra:

Hmm.

Max Traylor:

However you can add value to those other relationships to maintain your access and keep your ears open are the best sales opportunities. They're far better than net new, because you already know the players, you already know they have budget. You already have budget sales events in your quarterly business reviews. So just gotta get talking to these people. It's often a question I ask, hey, marketing agency, how many conversations do you have that have nothing to do with marketing? Okay, that's a problem.

Harv Nagra:

Mm hmm. So, when it comes to that kind of strategic offer, what kind, can, can you tell us maybe the kinds of things that could be sold as part of that? just painting us a picture, that is not just one line in a quote that says strategy...

Max Traylor:

So generally, the first thing that people have that is strategic is an audit

Harv Nagra:

Mm hmm.

Max Traylor:

Audits are trash. Like if you so we've all had that client that's like, Look, I already know it's broken. I don't need to pay you to tell you that it's broken.

Harv Nagra:

Yeah.

Max Traylor:

So the problem with audits is they're incomplete. Like why would you audit something without putting together the plan or a roadmap for, for how to solve that? So you can easily just tag on a, a roadmap or a set of recommendations to the audit. Uh, and it's a much more valuable, uh, it's a much more you could, and a strategy is a plan, right? So there you go, there's your strategy offer. Uh, By the way, that's exactly what happens in the sales process. Your, your audit is the conversations that you're having and the roadmap is your proposal. So you're already doing that one for free. First book, Hey, sell the plan, take that, break it off, sell that for five, 10, 000, something that has single signature authority. That the CEO or someone that has budget can purchase without going through the three months of having to get a whole committee to agree to it. Um, another standalone offer is an alignment workshop. So this is, this is very strategic, but is the perfect way to start. And that is to say, okay, uh, you've got this brief here. The brief looks like trash. The reality is you've never purchased anything like this before, the decision makers, like your leadership team isn't even on the same page.

Harv Nagra:

Yeah.

Max Traylor:

Um, I would really love to help you like get everybody on the same page, align on what is most important and then show you where the gaps are in this plan. Like what, what should the goals be? What are the team roles? What's the timeline of activity? And let's clarify what the gap is that a third party vendor is going to try and solve. So that alignment workshop is also a standalone offer that you can do, you know, couple hours, five grand, 10 grand as a single thing. I like to combine those three as, as the first, three to five week, uh, three to five week strategic offer. You do an alignment workshop to determine what's most important. You benchmark their capabilities in that area that is most important. And then you create a strategic roadmap of the things that you're going to do to capture that most important opportunity and fill the gaps. It takes about three to five weeks. You could charge, well, I don't know, know, some, some people charge like a hundred grand for that, but,

Harv Nagra:

Mm hmm.

Max Traylor:

you know, 10 to 10 to 20 grand. And that roadmap of opportunity becomes your upsell roadmap.

Harv Nagra:

Mm.

Max Traylor:

That's your account plan. That's your upsell roadmap. You remind the client of that every time you meet. And all of a sudden at the end of the first quarter, you're not saying, Hey, can I upsell you something? The conversation is now, hey, are we ready to do the next thing that we've been talking about for three months?

Harv Nagra:

Yeah. I really, really love that.

Max Traylor:

yeah. And then, so the, the other thing I would say is that, uh, agencies are, comically delusional about their QBRs, quarterly business reviews,

Harv Nagra:

Mm hmm.

Max Traylor:

the whole point is to listen to a client, talk about their business objectives, and for us to align our capabilities with their business objectives, 90 percent of those meetings and agency principals will say, Oh yeah, we do that. We do great. We do great QBRs. Um, yeah, look at your deck. If it's got 50 slides of charts and graphs and numbers. Mm That's you making a presentation of tactical sh*t. Then you look at your recorded calls. AI can tell you how much you talk versus they talk. If you're talking 90 percent of the time, it's not a conversation. Mm hmm. They should be doing the majority of the talking.

Harv Nagra:

Right.

Max Traylor:

So it's the primary way of maintaining alignment and maintaining your business relationship with a client. Uh, agencies are completely delusional because generally the principal hasn't done one of those.

Harv Nagra:

Mm hmm.

Max Traylor:

believes it's being done that way. And it just isn't

Harv Nagra:

So Max, like, you know, if you get into that kind of a situation where you are able to offer this as a, as this, like, I don't want to say standalone service, but if there was a separation of implementation, um, what, what's my question just slipped my mind.

Max Traylor:

it, it, and yes, like I've got clients right now where it's a standalone service

Harv Nagra:

Yeah.

Max Traylor:

and I've got clients that are like, Hey, we don't want to make it a standalone service. Our, uh, our, our client engagements are big enough. We just want to keep them and upsell them.

Harv Nagra:

Yeah.

Max Traylor:

they're doing this as just a cost of keeping the client, and the cost of upsell, which is significantly lower than the cost of a new sale.

Harv Nagra:

Yeah, I appreciate that. I remember what I was going to say now. Uh, there was something that I was reading about you saying, that you can also like through all this work, become the person that helps them assess the vendors...

Max Traylor:

Yeah. So if the worst thing that could happen is for you to be vendorified...

Harv Nagra:

Hmm.

Max Traylor:

I put this into my second book, uh, it's in the Urban Dictionary.

Harv Nagra:

Hmm. Okay.

Max Traylor:

To be vendorified is when you go from being a strategic partner, you get relegated to being a vendor. Yeah. Um, the best way to tell a client that you're not a vendor is to add vendor evaluation to your strategy offer.

Harv Nagra:

That's brilliant.

Max Traylor:

Right. So remember the strategy offer is we align on what's most important, we benchmark your capabilities, and we create a roadmap for solving that problem. Well, in that roadmap, a part of the plan is, Hey, you don't have the skills to do some of these things. hmm. Here are the people we think you should hire and how to evaluate them.

Harv Nagra:

Yeah.

Max Traylor:

Client's not going to look at us as a vendor, because we're literally saying we can help you evaluate other vendors.

Harv Nagra:

Yeah.

Max Traylor:

if they've never hired somebody for marketing and they've never worked with, either internally or third party.

Harv Nagra:

Mm hmm.

Max Traylor:

The education or the training on what to look out for, how to evaluate vendors. I mean, that's like extreme. That's like the most important thing that you could do. Hey, you're now entering a world where you're going to spend money. You're going to get burned.

Harv Nagra:

Mm

Max Traylor:

It's crazy out there. And everyone looks like they know what they're doing they're, you know, they're marketers. They got a nice website.

Harv Nagra:

Very, very good point. Um, so you, you, I think you said, a bit earlier in the call about pro well, we were talking about productization briefly, but strategy being productized. Does that work? And how does that work?

Max Traylor:

Well, anything can be productized. And I use the word productised as a big word, cause it sounds smart.

Harv Nagra:

Yeah.

Max Traylor:

but really it just means you do the same thing for the same people, for the same price.

Harv Nagra:

Yeah.

Max Traylor:

Things, steps, fees. It is more of a mindset. So the services mindset is we just, you know, we just do whatever is most valuable for the client.

Harv Nagra:

Mm hmm.

Max Traylor:

And we know that the profit margin is going to go up and down. It's wildly unpredictable. Mm Um, the opposite of that is treating it like a product. Like it's on an assembly line. The exact same amount of material goes in. It looks the same every time. There's product standards. It's probably made on an assembly line. So the more you can think of your service as consistent deliverables, consistent process, consistent fees, the more profitable you're going to be, the better positioned you're going to be because people can say, Oh, I know exactly what you do. You make shoes. I know what they look like. They go on your feet. It's not like, well, what do you do? It's like, oh, it depends. Do you want shoes on your hands or shoes on your feet? No, we know what you fricking do. Um, and, and it's much easier to set and meet client expectations. I mean, that's just a service better business.

Harv Nagra:

Mm hmm.

Max Traylor:

Um, and so can strategy be productized? Absolutely. Here are the steps we go through. hmm. Here are, uh, here's what the client gets and what the client does not get.

Harv Nagra:

Mm

Max Traylor:

Here's the timeline. We know what it costs. Productized.

Harv Nagra:

Yeah. Excellent. So Max, if someone's listening and they're thinking, this is what I want to do, being more strategic and selling that as a, as part of their offer, where do you think you would advise that they should get started? Like what are the first steps?

Max Traylor:

Here's the first thing that you should do. It's the most powerful thing you can do. Go to your clients and ask them one question. What is the least valuable thing that we do for you?

Harv Nagra:

Mm.

Max Traylor:

That's a question to ask. So what that's going to do is, It's going to help you with profitability

Harv Nagra:

Mm hmm.

Max Traylor:

and a CEO did this the other day and called me up and he was like, yeah, they said it was the QBRs, the quarterly business reviews.

Harv Nagra:

Yeah.

Max Traylor:

The most strategic thing that you're supposed to be doing. That's the least valuable. And they said like, yeah, you guys are just like reporting stuff to us. Uh, we really need you thinking six, 12 months down the line. And I was just like lapping it up. I'm like, yeah, I told ya. But it's a really good question because it's only something that a strategic partner would ask. Mm Vendors don't ask that. Vendors are like, hey, what should we stop doing for you? A vendor would never ask that.

Harv Nagra:

You might be afraid to ask that, actually.

Max Traylor:

Well, they're terrified.

Harv Nagra:

Yeah.

Max Traylor:

terrified of losing clients. Actually, this is for another thing, but my theory is that most are just terrified of being exposed because deep down they believe that they're not actually adding any value.

Harv Nagra:

Right.

Max Traylor:

That's a different problem, but that's what I think the reality is. sorry, if it cut too deep for some...

Harv Nagra:

no.

Max Traylor:

Go find something valuable.

Harv Nagra:

Mm hmm.

Max Traylor:

so that's number one.

Harv Nagra:

Okay.

Max Traylor:

Number 2 is, the next time, the next time you have a sales opportunity, sell the, the proposal process. You already do the proposal process. So don't give me this like, Oh, I don't know what I should do. Like you sell your exact proposal process. You put a$5, 000 tag on it. Just start at five. The pricing doesn't matter. So just start at five. Um, those are the two things that you should do.

Harv Nagra:

Mm. And then be brave with this and try it.

Max Traylor:

Yeah, be brave. That's the mindset. Be strong.

Harv Nagra:

Nice.

Max Traylor:

It's not rocket science.

Harv Nagra:

Yeah.

Max Traylor:

You can read any book on, on what agencies should do better. They're all going to say sell strategic work. They're all going to say, have adult conversations with budget, holding decision makers. So like, none of this is like, Oh my God. So the real challenge is like, what is holding people back psychologically? Uh, and it's something in between imposter syndrome when, when they have the skills and they're just not being recognized or they literally don't have the skills yet and they're not adding value, they're avoiding having that conversation because the only way to get past that is to have A real adult conversation with your clients because they'll tell you what would be really valuable. but it might be, you got to be open to the fact that it might not be what you're doing right now.

Harv Nagra:

I think there's just that element of fear also that the other guy is going to be cheaper and how are you going to get your foot in the door? But I think the point is you just have to start and try it and you'll learn something along the way. And, you know..

Max Traylor:

Yeah, Or, or do it for, or do it for existing clients. So there's nothing stopping you from going like if you do not, if currently you go to your best client, if you do not have an understanding of what their priority initiatives are, initiatives mean projects, but they're serious projects...

Harv Nagra:

yeah.

Max Traylor:

for clients, things that they have said, okay, we're going to spend money on this. There's success and failure criteria. Someone's been assigned to this, that that's called an initiative. And when people plan strategically, there's like, there's a roadmap that is okay, 2025. Here's what we're trying to accomplish in Q2, Q3, Q4. So you got to get your hands on that, then you've got a, you've got to say, okay, here's how we can add the most value during those quarters. So that's your objective. Every client should have that. It's called an account plan.

Harv Nagra:

hmm.

Max Traylor:

Every client should have that little roadmap, um, go build that with your client. And I would say if you don't have it for an existing client, don't even charge for it the first time, go build that with them. Cause like your account's in danger by the way.

Harv Nagra:

Yeah. Mm

Max Traylor:

build that for them. And then after you've done it two or three times, have a third party go interview those clients and ask them the same question. What's the least valuable thing we do for you? What's the most valuable thing they do for you? And I guarantee that those conversations where you're helping them think into the future and make grownup decisions, those are going to be some of the most valuable things you do. Now you've got the confidence. Now you can start to weaponize that in the sales process as like, Oh yeah, those other cheap guys, they're gonna, they're gonna try and sell you a cheap content package. Yeah. We've learned, you know, we really want to help you think.

Harv Nagra:

Really, really good advice. So, Max, we're coming up towards the end now. Where can people connect with you and learn more about what you do?

Max Traylor:

Oh, LinkedIn, LinkedIn. I,

Harv Nagra:

linkedIn.

Max Traylor:

I'm a one trick pony.

Harv Nagra:

Excellent. Okay.

Max Traylor:

I'm out there. I'm on LinkedIn.

Harv Nagra:

Excellent.

Max Traylor:

Spittin' uh, some occasionally offensive stuff.

Harv Nagra:

No, very, very informative and interesting stuff and loads of video content as well, which I love. So definitely I will put a link to your profile in the episode notes and Max, it's been an absolute pleasure having you on today.

Max Traylor:

Thank you for, thank you for having me.

Harv Nagra:

And I need to read the next book.

Max Traylor:

I apologize

Harv Nagra:

No, I'm not offended, but I need a copy of that second book so we can book in our follow up session at some point.

Max Traylor:

Yeah. Consultant survival guide.

Harv Nagra:

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Hi again all just a few reflections from me before we wrap up. If you've struggled to sell your thinking rather than the doing I hope you took some things away from that conversation with Max. My key takeaways, If a client sees you as a vendor, you'll always be replaceable, the best way to change that perception, start charging for strategy, not just giving it away in the sales process. Number two, your role at the table is only as strong as the relationships you build. If you're only talking to your client's marketing team, you're missing out on conversations with sales, product, and finance, people who may be hugely influential in the decision and could also be holding the budget. And number three, if you want to start shifting towards a more strategic role, ask your clients a simple but powerful question: what's the least valuable thing we do for you? The answer might surprise you and could be guiding your way towards offering what is truly needed. If you enjoyed this episode, please take a moment to share it with someone in your network who would appreciate it. And if you haven't already, I'd really appreciate it if you could rate and review the show. And don't forget to sign up for the Handbook Newsletter, where we share a cheat sheet of the key takeaways from each episode So you can go reference the ideas at a later time. Go to scoro.com/podcast, scroll down and you'll find where to put in your email. That's it for me. I'll be back with the next episode soon.

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