The Handbook: The Operations Podcast

The ops CHEAT CODE: One year of insights condensed with Harv Nagra

• Harv Nagra • Season 1 • Episode 32

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Is your business growing, but it still feels messy?

This solo episode from Harv looks back at one year of The Handbook podcast, and it’s a big one. Harv recaps what he’s learned from a year of speaking with ops leaders across the agency world. He packages it all into one whirlwind tour of the five core pillars of operational maturity: people, process, tools, data, and growth.

If you’ve missed a few episodes (or want a cheat code to benchmark your agency’s ops maturity), this is your starting point. Or your reset.

Here’s what Harv dives into:

  • Why operational maturity, not creativity or client relationships, is the biggest differentiator for scale
  • What smart people practices actually look like, from efficient and effective hiring to career path frameworks
  • How to build a sales engine that doesn’t rely on panicked effort or founder charisma
  • Why a tech stack is only as good as the strategy underneath it
  • What it really means to be data-driven, beyond just dashboards
  • And what common agency growth mistakes still trip up even the most ambitious teams

Plus, you’ll hear key takeaways from guests like Manish Kapur, Karl Sakas, Preston Chandler, Jenny Plant, and many more.


Additional Resources:

  • Harv’s webinar on documentation & best practice here: https://youtu.be/RroxOVlSwIk 
  • Learnings and tools from Freia Muehlenbein's 'how to pitch' episode: https://www.scoro.com/blog/how-to-pitch-a-client/ 


Follow Harv on LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/harvnagra


Stay up to date with regular ops insights. Subscribe to The Handbook: The Operations Newsletter: https://www.scoro.com/podcast/#handbook 

This podcast is brought to you by Scoro, where you can manage your projects, resources and finances in a single system.

Harv:

Thanks for listening to The Handbook: The Operations Podcast. This podcast is brought to you by Scoro. Scoro is a PSA or professional services automation platform. Don't blame me. I did not come up with that label, but yeah it's easy for those of us in agencies to forget that ultimately we are professional services businesses in the business of selling time. A PSA platform helps your agency take a leap in maturity from disjointed tools and spreadsheets that don't talk to one another, to a single source of truth for your business. Bringing together quoting, project and time tracking, invoicing and reporting into one beautiful place so you don't have to spend your time looking up or copying and pasting data from several different places. I left my job as an in house ops director to work for Scoro because I was so impressed. Sign up for a free trial at scoro.com or if you arrange a demo call, tell them Harv sent you. Now let's get to the episode.

Harv Nagra:

Hey all, I'm Harv Nagra. Welcome back to the Handbook, the Ops podcast. When I started this podcast just over a year ago, the goal was simple. Speak about ops, challenges with ops people for an ops audience, because from my experience, ops can be a lonely role in a business. I certainly felt that when I'd first moved into operations in an agency many years ago. Thankfully, that's changed. Quite a lot over the last few years. If you're a regular listener, I hope that you'll find the handbook has become one of those places where you can find community ideas and inspiration. When we're stuck doing things on our own, we might be less creative or afraid of making big changes for fear of breaking things or opening up a can of worms. It can be intimidating. So coming back to the purpose of this podcast, it's been to share experiences and learnings. Not the glossy version, the real version. The version where the tools you brought in are gathering dust. Where your most trusted team member hands in their notice and you realize no one else knows how to do what they do. Where your agency is busy, but your margins don't reflect it. Where you've gone from peaceful to panicking about your pipeline because the latest, crazed politician is on a power trip. All of that stuff, so hopefully through the conversations we've had on the podcast, It's given you some inspiration of things to try at your own place of work. It also led me to realize something several months ago; that the biggest differentiator between businesses that scale and succeed versus those that struggle isn't just creativity of work. Or client relationships or the economy. It's operational maturity. A year in, I stand by that more than ever. And on reflection, all the episodes of the podcast to date fall neatly under the five pillars, which I believe sit at the heart of operations and which we need to ensure are all being nudged towards higher maturity. People, Process, tools, data and growth strategies. Interrogating each of these areas gives us perspective on the gaps and the opportunities within our own businesses. So in today's episode, it's just me and we're gonna take a whirlwind tour of these five pillars and recap some of what we've learned over the past year. Let's dive in. Let's start with people, the foundation of your business, and for an ops director, there's so much here that we have to be across. There's hiring, retention, performance, culture, communication. Throwback to Sarah Brougham from Gen Flow. In that episode I opened by confessing I didn't have a great track record with recruitment. I felt the sting of those 20% fees, extended probation periods and hires, that just didn't work out despite my best attempt to make the hiring process as rigorous as possible. Sarah told us at Gen Flow, she's reduced time to hire to just six weeks, which is super impressive and has implemented a hiring process to ensure she's hiring the right team fit after too many full starts, like I just described in my case, and she's set up a clear onboarding process that gets new joiners productive, fast. Here's a clip of Sarah talking about how she used to get wooed by a great looking cv, but not any longer.

Sarah Brougham:

We've probably wasted hundreds of thousands of pounds on employees who have been great on paper and may be good for other agencies, but for us, we're just not the right fit whatsoever. I would look at a flashy CV and think, wow, this person's been at this brand and that brand, you know, obviously they're going to come in and they're going to fix our problems because they know how it works. They'd come in and they're used to working in a certain way and it didn't work for us because we were working with real people, creators for one, they're not just B2B clients. And then also just their outlook on what pace should look like internally and what growth should look like. So I think that was one major learning curve.

Harv Nagra:

Now, obviously it's not just about hiring and onboarding. We also need to think about careers and growth for our team members. That's where Zoe Elizabeth blog from Reboot comes in. She gave one of the best examples I've heard of how to handle career paths in a business. Not only do her team have a very clear idea of how to get to the next level, she encourages them to put themselves forward for promotions if they think they qualify and she actually does salary reviews. Four times a year. I have never heard of such a thing. Zoe pointed out that that doesn't mean people get pay rises four times a year, although theoretically I suppose they could, but that she reviews and gives people an opportunity for the pay bump four times a year so that there's not these long stretches of having to wait if someone's earned it. And in a competitive market, it's important that you can be reactive and make a change when it's the right time. One of the best things I enjoyed about hearing from Zoe was how she has dual career paths for every role in her agency, one for people managers, and another path for people that prefer to be individual contributors. We often have paths for promotion in our agencies or our businesses that is set up for line management. It is super rare, in my view, to have the deep consideration that Zoe has for the individual contributor path, for individuals that don't want those responsibilities. Here's a clip of Zoe talking about the IC career paths.

Zoe Blogg:

The murkiness of career paths is something I see often. As you mentioned, for IC roles, it lacks the clarity or prestige that comes with some management positions. So people do feel forced to go into manager roles and they don't know where else they can go. So the career packs we've done for Reboot, I've tried to make that clear. What we have for every manager role is a corresponding IC position. So to put that into context, you might have a manager and level with them is a specialist in that position. So I would expect a specialist to be able to perform at a manager level, but they're not looking after people. They can just run with the projects and get it done. So what the team can really see is that. Along these pathways is a parallel IC route and it comes with that same reward, same salary bands. It's just different expectations.

Harv Nagra:

All right, so we've done the hiring, we've done the onboarding, we've done the career paths and performance reviews. What's next? Well, company culture, many of us have struggled to really crack the code on cultures since the world went hybrid and remote. Some of the magic has been lost. So what do we do about that? That's where my conversation with agile and collaboration coach Julia Vastrik comes in. In a hybrid world. Julia said that culture doesn't live in the office anymore. It lives in your rituals. Julia was saying it's absolutely still possible to have a strong company culture today, but it takes more effort and more intent. It's no longer automatic. We have to make a concerted effort to build that culture. One of the key takeaways for me is that we should create working agreements that outline expectations around working practices with our teams. That way everyone's on the same page. Here's a clip.

Julia:

Team culture is not only having fun together, but it's also to do work together. And for this we need to have explicit agreements. Where we decide how we work as a team. And this is not something written in stone, we experiment with this, and then we might add, remove, change those working agreements. And overall, like, it should, should not be something very long. The longer, the, the more chances that people will not remember. So

Harv:

Okay.

Julia:

three rules, it's cool. If it's five rules, it's also good.

Harv:

Yeah. Hmm.

Julia:

for example, documentation, it also might be part of working agreements. What kind of documentation we have, where we keep this, what is necessary. And how we collaborate, what kind of tools we are using. It might be also part of this.

Harv Nagra:

So If you've been struggling with company culture in the work from home era, listen to this episode for some inspiration. Speaking of culture, one big cultural change that's sweeping through our workplaces is the fresh perspective that Gen Z are bringing in. It's estimated that around 30% of our workforce is Gen Z In 2025, my chat with Isobel Camier was one that I know resonated with a lot of people. Isobel's research offered six clear trends shaping this generation's mindset at work and challenged a lot of the stereotypes. If you're in a line management role, you're already managing Gen Z, and this episode gave us a roadmap for doing it well. Here's a clip from that episode. Ironically, millennials, probably had a similar reaction from their line managers, several years ago. So it's funny how things come full circle, but what would you say to someone saying, you know, why should we make exceptions or change the way we're working?

Isobel Camier:

First of all, I'd respond by asking, is what you're doing working a hundred percent of the time? Has leadership and management in the places that you have worked never sort of evolved, changed? We also know, cultures work better, workplaces are better, when they're really inclusive.

Harv Nagra:

What stood out to me across all these episodes was how interconnected the themes were. You can't talk about onboarding without talking about performance. You can't talk about performance without thinking about culture, and you can't build a strong culture without understanding who your team really is and what they need. To thrive. We had some other brilliant conversations about people as well with Amy Hopper talking about productivity, and jenny Plant, discussing the role of the hybrid account manager. Do go check out all of the above if you haven't already or if you need a refresher on those conversations. all right, let's move on to process. If people are the foundation, then process is the framework, and that applies to the processes we follow to sell, to pitch, to deliver and more. Let's start with sales. This was one of our most popular episodes. Ryan Hall brought a commercial lens to the process conversation. We talked about how most agencies don't really have a clear sales process, just a string of one-off efforts, usually reliant on founder relationships, referrals, or repeat business. We count too much on all of the above. We discussed in that episode that when those inbound opportunities dry up for whatever reason, the lack of structure in the sales process becomes painfully obvious. ryan walked us through how to set up an operationalized sales engine Where we have the right people for each stage of the sales funnel, we have tooling which supports each stage of the funnel, and most importantly, the sales efforts are consistent. Let's have a listen.

Ryan Hall:

There's a concept in lots of business' heads that, like a light switch, you can turn sales on, you can turn sales off. We're seeing our pipeline drop. We can see the visibility in our revenue starting to drop X months out. We'd better start doing sales." Light switch on. And then all of a sudden they do some things and they do it for like a couple of weeks, maybe a couple of months, and it doesn't work because it's just not that quick. Turn it off again. And then the cycle repeats cuz"oh god maybe we should try the thing again", but in six months time. But the problem is you're just flicking a light switch on and off, right? And that's just fundamentally not how sales works.

Harv Nagra:

Next, let's talk about pitching, because unfortunately not every opportunity coming our way is just an RFQ or an RFP. Often we have to pitch, I hated pitching the amount of time and effort that could get sunk into a pitch. And the risk of clients ghosting you or the feeling that they're just putting things to pitch, to generate ideas. It's absolutely awful. to talk about how to make the pitching process less painful and boost your chances of winning. We had ops and growth consultant, Freya Mullen on the podcast for an effective pitch process. She told us that we need to understand the client's needs with better qualification, strategizing. Data and insights towards this. Freya recommended putting together a pitch war room, a dedicated team space where you strategize how to win. Discuss the client's need. Identify key decision makers and clarify how your value proposition aligns with their success and critically in the war room. Ensure that strategy is clear before working on the pitch deck. One of the most important things Fya highlighted is that we need to focus on ROI over tactics and pretty graphics. Let's have a listen.

Freia:

I've collected pitch feedback from brands on behalf of my clients for about six years now. A lot of the common themes are around, it's not strategic. I don't know what I'm buying. I know that you can do this, this, this, and this, and what's wrong with my account. But what am I actually buying? And really what they want to buy is ROI. And if we can't talk about that, and if we can't prove that, we're going to lose the pitch.

Harv Nagra:

If you need to improve your pitch win rate, there's an article we've produced on the Scoro website with loads of great resources based on Fres advice. I'm gonna put a link to that in the episode notes, so do check it out. All right, guys. We've won the project and now we need to deliver. When I spoke to ops and tech consultant, Mike Della Porta, he introduced to me the business capability maturity model. The idea overlaps with the business maturity models I often refer to, but whereas I tend to focus on the broader operational maturity of a business. The capability maturity model Mike was referring to also takes a closer look at the things that we sell or produce in an agency, things that we do. How repeatable is all of that, Is that knowledge held with one person and when they leave, things are going to grind to a halt? Mike, spoke to us about how we can improve our capability maturity, and what each stage looks like so we can get better and faster at delivery. Let's have a listen.

Mike Della Porta:

A lot of times you might have somebody that's a practitioner of a certain capability or function, or maybe even a service that you're developing for your client. And in the agency world, you know, there's those old adages of a fake it till you make it. You know, maybe you have that one person that's doing their thing, but now the question comes up, well, we're doing this for one customer. How do we do it for two customers? How do we do it for three customers? And when that moment happens. You kind of have to step back and say, okay, what is it about what this person is doing or this combination of people, process and tech that we can replicate and scale and deliver on the promise for multiple clients and take advantage of that opportunity.

Harv Nagra:

Now, we can't talk about process without talking about change management. Change is one of the hardest things we have to manage as operators, and if we don't handle it well, it can lead to a lot of pain and problems. I think we've all been there. Claire Quansah came on the podcast to talk about this, and one of the most interesting things about the conversation was us talking about the Kubler Ross change curve. It describes the stages of grief people go through when experiencing a bereavement, and the shocking thing is that this model has been adopted in the business world to describe the reaction people have to change in the workplace. So in this episode, Claire and I dived into managing change in a way to ensure success. Let's have a quick listen.

Claire Quansah:

It's very easy to kind of just dump a new system onto people and hope that it's going to work really, really quickly and solve your problems. And if it doesn't, then you know what, you, you will be wasting time and money, not just on the cost of the actual system or tool itself, but people's time I think that then links to things like people's own frustration in terms of the way that they are working and they can get frustrated with the tool. They can get frustrated with the organization. And if you start to get different people that, you know, go off in their own way, you're then creating more issues yourself aren't you? And then you end up not achieving the goals that you were trying to achieve before in terms of, whether that's to do with visibility and insights because then you've got disparate sets of siloed information, and it becomes even more confusing for everybody.

Harv Nagra:

now, before we move on from process, I just wanted to mention that I've had a couple of solo episodes on the podcast as well, And one of them dived into creating a centralized agency handbook or knowledge base, which team friendly tools you can use to create that documentation and how to embed best practice in your team. There's a YouTube version of that webinar I gave on this topic as well, which has visuals, so you may want to check that out if these are some of the challenges you're facing in your workplace. There's a link to that in the episode notes. All right, we're ready to move into technology. When it comes to business maturity, we get to a point where everyone using whatever tools off the shelf no longer becomes efficient. So we have to take a more controlled approach to tool selection and implementation, figuring out what's the right fit for our business needs today and into the future. in my conversation with Tyler Caskey of the Bean Counters, a tech and accounting consultancy, We unpacked what happens when agencies add more and more tools to solve problems, He made a great point. There comes a point in every business's growth and maturity journey Where the disjointed tools start leading to data errors, duplication of effort, and staff frustration. This is especially caused when the tools aren't deeply integrated and talking to one another. Tyler's advice was to consolidate wherever possible and find platforms with native integrations so your team is able to work centrally, trust the data and have it flow across your system or systems, without having to manually export, import, copy and paste, and spend weeks reporting on it. Here's a clip.

Tyler Caskey:

I think when there are multiple sources of data is when it becomes really challenging. You know, integration and automatic two way integration is really the market leading position at the moment. I've found, you know, if you've got two best of breed systems, you know, like a CRM that doesn't talk to your job system, you're going to lose staff because they're manually transitioning data and everyone's got like their own time value curves. And you've just got these moments where you just feel like your time's being wasted. So I always look for systems that natively integrate or integrate without human touch. I like that, not only for like making my staff happier, it also benefits the business because, you know, people are more productive, that means they can get onto either revenue generating activities or other high value activities.

Harv Nagra:

Next. We had tech consultant Matthew Peng on the podcast to help unpack this further. He brought a consultant's perspective on what it takes to actually scope and select the right tool.'cause that's always a big challenge as well, right? And not just grab the first thing you see in a Google search. What I appreciated most was how Matt said the goal wasn't to find The perfect tool it's to define your requirements clearly enough that you can make smart trade-offs. He also pointed out what we don't want is to build a proof of concept in a spreadsheet and stay with it forever. There's tools that you can bring in that allow you to scale smarter. Let's have a listen.

Matthew Peng:

I definitely come across business owners all the time and they still run the business like they did perhaps when they first started the business and they haven't chosen to evolve with standard operating procedures. Spreadsheets are always a great starting point to model the data points you want to capture, but that should not be the final destination. It is the starting point. And once you figure out as a business owner what you need, what is important, you need to very quickly get off that so that you can scale with software. Spreadsheets leave those business owners very exposed. intelligence is missed when you're just managing in spreadsheets and it gets lost in translation.

Harv Nagra:

Another recent podcast we've had was with Ryan Pearcy, another accounting and tech consultant from a company called Digital Disruptors. Ryan laid out what goes wrong when agencies build tech stacks reactively. Ryan's advice was to work backwards from the insights you want and then select the tools to support those decisions. he was saying that if you don't know what questions you're trying to answer, no tool. However powerful is gonna help you get clarity. Let's have a listen. What is the biggest mistake you see businesses make when it comes to their finance and operations tech stack?

Ryan Pearcy:

Number one is they don't have an end goal, so they will pick in silos, problems they've got and look to resolve that issue. But if you do that, all you end up with is lots of different systems that don't communicate and don't deliver the ultimate end position, which is clear visibility of the key areas of our business that enable us to make decisions. Start with where do we wanna get to and work backwards from that. That's the number one issue that most businesses suffer.

Harv Nagra:

each of these episodes underscored the same idea. The most common tech problem agencies isn't bad software. It's software without strategy. We have so many distractions at this point on our personal devices and our work devices from various apps we use. At some point, The onus is on us as ops leaders to streamline and simplify the workflow. To that point, there was a general consensus amongst our guests that in order to move up the maturity stages, There comes a point in your growth that a PSA platform like Scoro becomes essential. Without that, you end up having challenges with efficiency, with accuracy, and with visibility on how your projects and business are doing. All right, we're moving into metrics and data. One of the biggest leaps in agency maturity is the ability not just to collect data, but actually use it to steer where you're going. This came through really powerfully through some of the conversations we've had on the theme of data and metrics. Let's start first with Ryan McNamara, head of ops at Rise at seven. Ryan is one of those people I want to be when I grow up, only, he's probably a decade younger than me. He's so switched on with his understanding in finance and metrics and really exemplifies what it means to be data-driven. In his episode, he talked about the three key areas that he thinks every ops director should obsess about financial rigor, performance culture, and operational efficiency. Let's have a listen.

Ryan McNamara:

know that not everyone loves maths and finance and all those bits and pieces, but I like having information in front of me that allows me to figure out what's happening. Um, so for me, it's about, you know, clear reporting and forecasting on sort of the financial and account performance, within teams. So you'd look at utilization and revenue recognition, recovery, and different sort of tools and metrics like that. but overall, If you're really trying to define it, I'd say it's, it's enabling you to have the right information about your performance, business performance data, right now, you can make a good decision today and a good decision in two weeks time. that's what financial rigour is all about. And what was, that's how you should sort of view it.

Harv Nagra:

Next finops consultant, Richard Brett went deep on the financial concepts and metrics that actually matter in a service-based business. His crash course on finance started with an explainer of revenue recognition and why it's so important, and then he moved into utilization, how it connects to recovery and billable paid, and ultimately future month work value. All of these metrics layer on top of one another and help give you a better understanding of how your business is performing. Let's have a listen.

Richard Brett:

I think a lot of agencies are guilty of looking at the past and going, oh, we did brilliantly last month. I don't really care if you did great last month because the next three months look terrible. Like what we're doing about that we can still impact and affect change in those months, we can't do anything about what happened last month. So growing sustainably is about trying to work out, what do we need to do to continue on the path we want to go down whether it's growing revenue or growing EBIT or hopefully both of those.

Harv Nagra:

so if you hear people say Being data-driven is important, but you don't actually know what that means, speak to Rich and start by checking out this episode. Now onto the brilliant Karl Sakas leadership and growth consultant with Karl. We spoke about the three big levers for profitability, pricing, scoping, and scope management. And how to move to value-based pricing. Karl also introduced the idea of strategic churn, where letting go of low margin or bad fit clients can be one of the best decisions for your bottom line and for your team morale. Let's have a listen.

Karl Sakas:

I have a concept I call strategic churn. That's where you replace previous or current clients with better new clients. If it's a client you're okay to lose maybe they're gonna get a higher increase if they wanna stick around or a higher increase if they want to keep working with say the owner of the agency where maybe the owner used to work with lots of clients directly. If clients wanna keep working with the owner they're gonna be paying a lot more for that premium service.

Harv Nagra:

If you don't know Karl, you should follow him. and if you haven't listened, this episode was packed with seriously good advice, as well as Karl's predictions for what the agency space is gonna look like in the year 2030. Before we move on. I've said it many times, but when it comes to finance, we all come into operations from different career paths. We're better at some things than others For myself, finance was one of those areas that I was weaker in. So you're not alone if you feel like you've got plenty to brush up on. In fact, that's one of the reasons I had Alfie Wenegieme on the podcast from Cactus. He challenged ops folks to stop deferring to their finance colleagues And start building fluency in the numbers themselves. In his view, finance is the receipts that our operations and our processes are working, that we're making more money and performances on the up. So we have to have this knowledge. Let's have a listen.

Alfie Wenegieme:

I feel ops person really needs to understand finances to be able to track whether or not what they're doing is actually working properly in the business. And if it's not, then figure it out and then approach your operations a different way. Tweak it, look at the reports, see the results, and see if it's working or not. As Peter Drucker said, what gets measured gets managed, and what gets managed gets improved. You have to be able to track it to be able to improve it.

Harv Nagra:

This episode was made for anyone that feels like they've got a lot to learn in this area and Alfie's way of explaining things will make it incredibly easy. Do go check it out. All right, everyone. We're in our final section. We've talked about people, processes, technology, data, and finance, and now we're gonna talk growth strategies and growth stories. When it comes to growth, we've had plenty of lessons. our first ever episode was with ops consultant Manishh Kapur, telling us about the operational pillars that we need to sort out to make sure that we're set up for growth. I. We also had Preston Chandler WPPs Global Practice Lead in Strategic Operations on the podcast. Tell us that we need to step back and look at the big picture more often and be more strategic in our operations and not just get buried in the tactical stuff. We've had agency consultant Max Traylor on the podcast telling us how we can build stronger relationships with clients and be seen as strategic partners rather than just another agency. We've had former agency founder and consultant Trenton Moss on the podcast Telling us about loads of brilliant experiments he ran in his agency, getting his team to become more client and sales, setting up a Pod structure, how they set up a board of directors to help guide the agency and how they stumbled in launching their agency overseas. There's so much to learn in the episode. Go check it out. We've recently had the genius Marcel Petitpas on the podcast telling you about the pitfalls to avoid at various growth stages. So what are the challenges agencies with a certain headcount face, and how to ensure that you remain profitable throughout. Another favorite episode of mine was Claire Hutchings from Chime Agency telling us why agency marketing usually sucks. Why this is a terrible thing to neglect when the economy is in the state that it's in, and how you can build a strategy that's sustainable. So loads of interesting growth stories and growth strategies to listen to do, go check out some of those episodes. The point of today's episode was to revisit some of the top lessons from the past year as a refresher. If there's a challenge you're facing or something you need to refresh yourself on, go back and check out the episodes, and I didn't cover everything today, just some of the highlights in each of these areas, people, processes, tech, data, and growth strategies. Now the podcast is called The Handbook for a Reason. When we launched this, I wanted it to be the Handbook for Business Operations, a chapter for everything. Of course, we're not there yet. The challenges we face in operations are broad, and there's loads more coming up, but if you wanna go see the catalog of episodes that we have up now, then go to scoro.com/podcast and you can see the full lineup there. As always, everyone, a quick reminder that we have the Handbook newsletter that goes out every other week with key learnings from the latest episode. It means you don't have to remember everything or jot down notes on your phone while you're listening. You get the takeaways in your inbox to reference again, to sign up to that, go to score.com/podcast and sign up at the bottom of the page. And if you're a fan of the podcast, share the episode with a friend that would appreciate it. Write the podcast on Apple or Spotify, especially if you've never done so. And take part in the conversation when you see me post about the podcast. On LinkedIn. I really appreciate your support and we'll be back soon with the next episode. Thank you so much.

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