68: The Agony of 50/50 Custody (And What Helps) - Convo w/Britta Jo

Quinn and Britta dive into one of the most gut-wrenching challenges women face when considering or navigating divorce: the “agony” of 50/50 custody.

How do you cope with the heartbreak of being away from your kids—even if your co-parent is safe and trustworthy? And what if you’re the one who has always been the anchor parent, the one who knows the bedtime routine, the favorite snacks, the little cues no one else sees?

💔 In this episode, we talk about:

• The grief and fear of losing time with your children
• The cultural and biological narratives that feed “mom guilt”
• The difference between maternal attachment and children’s evolutionary drive to attach
• How patriarchy and capitalism have shaped the idea that mothers must always be present
• Boots-on-the-ground strategies: goodbye rituals, quality time over quantity, and re-regulation practices
• How to reframe your child’s time away as a chance for their independence and resilience to grow

Quinn and Britta share their radically different backgrounds in motherhood—one the eldest of eight, parentified from childhood, the other the eighth of ten, with a more hands-off upbringing—and how those frameworks shaped their parenting styles, their divorce experiences, and the way they handle custody today.

✨ Key takeaways:

• Your child’s foundation of safety doesn’t disappear when they’re away from you.
• Nervous system regulation (yours, not your child’s!) is essential.
• Time apart can teach kids resourcefulness, adaptability, and trust in multiple safe adults.
• Modeling courage and emotional adulthood is more powerful than clinging to control.

This is Part One of the conversation. Next week, in Part Two, Quinn shares her lived experience of co-parenting with someone she doesn’t trust—a very different scenario with very different challenges.

👉 Subscribe to Britta Jo’s Substack for next week's  full uncut conversations: https://stayorgo.substack.com/

PostDivorceGlowUp.com

Email: quinn@postdivorceglowup.com

Transcript

0:50

Hello my friends. This week's episode is another conversation between my bestie Britta Joe and myself, where we discuss the quote unquote agony of 50 50 co-parenting and custody time. We had planned it to do this episode together and address two separate scenarios, one being that you're going to be away from your child and how to deal with that because a lot of us feel anxiety being away from our children, Even if the person that we are trusting to care for them is a good person and we do trust the person, we just have a lot of emotions about being away from our children. So that's what this particular episode is going to be discussing. We had planned and we ran out of time. To take on another challenge, which is when you feel like you are the adult in the relationship, you do not have a co-parent that you can trust, and yet they do have access to your children. They are expected to parent, and there are some very specific challenges that come along with that. Now, just a heads up. This particular podcast, you get to listen to it in its entirety. Next week, the next conversation I have with Britta where we unpack that second scenario that's going to be behind her paywall, she just started a Substack subscription to support her podcast, And that is where that particular conversation between the two of us will land. For listeners of my podcast, I will do a breakdown of the most important things that I think you need to do in that scenario. But if you do want access to Brita's conversation with me around this, you're going to have to go over and subscribe to her Substack. That being said, I hope you enjoy our conversation. I. Welcome back everybody. It is the first week of the month of September, which as y'all know from last week's move to Substack means this will be a full episode on my podcast this month. Quinn will also have it open on hers and boy do we have a banger for y'all. I love that. I literally in my last episode, sharing those emails from people who had written in, mentioned this exact episode and it just kind of took off from there. Quinn and I sat down. We were discussing a bunch of different episodes and this was the one that was ready to come through. So today we are gonna be discussing that tricky for many, many people that I've talked to, many women considering divorce. Mm-hmm. Um, that tricky emotional experience of. Feeling like maybe you don't wanna stay married, divorce is the right decision for you, but just being in so much emotional turmoil over your children not being with you all the time anymore. Yeah. This reminds me of a woman who reached out to me a while ago, just considering divorce. She asked me to meet her for coffee. She has two tiny, tiny babies, like maybe 18 months apart. And she said, if I lose 50% of their life, I'm willing to stay married to this really difficult person. I would rather do that than miss out on 50% of their life, which sounds terrible, but I, I relate. But this is such a. An important topic that relates to women on so many levels. I, I love this email that was sent into you. Could, yes, could you read that? Because I think this just, yes. Oh, it's full of so much. Good, good stuff. Yeah. So this is the same email that I brought up in last week's, but we're gonna read it again at the beginning of this episode. Um, not the entire one, but just this specific section where she was asking for this episode. So she says, if it speaks to you, I'd love to hear an episode on how to work through the agony of leaving your kids half the time with the less than awesome other parent. I remember you saying that your kids aren't in your top few priorities. No judgment. I had my son in 2020 and I'm older. I had my time before he was born, and he's such a focus for me now. I know deep in my bones that having time and space to myself will be both incredibly rejuvenating and healing and it will help me build the next chapter of my own life. Independent of being a mom and all caps, my heart aches so much for the difficulties he'll face by spending so much more time with his father. I'm too familiar with the pain from my own childhood and from living with his father for so many years. I have a wonderful therapist and that helps, but boots on the ground, insights from you would be so appreciated. I haven't heard anyone on any podcast or other platform offer anything helpful. Things like quote, studies show they only need one securely attached caregiver, end quote, et cetera. Just don't cut it for me. We're biologically wired to be in close proximity to our kids for their survival. So this whole custody situation feels like death. And in that, what, like even as I was rereading it Quinn, I was like, oh my God, there's just so much in here that is so good that we're gonna break down discussing in so many different ways, like the d, the different ways that we'll come to this. I think one of the things I noticed too, from reading this around the second time Quinn, was just realizing, we're gonna talk about this later, there's kind of two different challenges here, right? There's the challenge of just being away from your children, even if they are with someone you trust half the time. Mm-hmm. In her instance, you know, she's talking specifically about having to leave your kids with someone that it sounds like you don't trust or that you're actually worried about them. Living with half the time. Yeah. And boy, can I relate, this is so where I was and what kept me in my marriage, knowing that I would probably thrive more outside of a marriage, but such deep worry for my children, those people that I would give my life for. And I was giving my life for them. So it blinded me to a lot of things, but, but she's right. We need some. Actions, some boots on the ground. How do we reframe this? How do I manage my nervous system through this? Mm-hmm. And she's right. It's not enough to say, well, your kids only need one good parent. It doesn't really help. So I'm glad we're finally digging through this. Yeah. But what I think was most interesting to me is how different you and I are in our personal frameworks of how we look at this situation, how we are as mothers. And so much of that is informed by how we were raised and our views. So like she mentioned in the email, you have been very clear on your podcast that your children are not your top priority for your life. Yeah. Yeah. And I think. Even though she says no judgment, there may be some question about that and I want you to dig into it a little bit so we have a clear framework on how you approach motherhood and then I'll, I'll share mine. One of the things as we were developing this episode together that we were like is so powerful about us doing it with both of us, is that we come from very different parenting frameworks and we have very different experiences around parenting. And we will dive in a little bit later'cause. We wanna really dig into this, this statement that she makes at the end that even as I read it again, I was like, it is such a punchy statement that we're biologically wired to be in close proximity to our kids for their survival. So we actually went and we researched some of this, which is the beauty of us coming from different angles, right? That was something that hearing that I was like, Hmm, I don't actually resonate with that statement. Like, why don't I resonate with that? Why don't I buy into that? So, yes, thank you for explaining that. We need to first share our personal frameworks coming into this, and honestly, what a gifted is that we come from such different frameworks because that allows us to come at this. Conversation from very, very different angles and kind of cover a lot of the bases. So for me, some of the things we realized together that probably like are the biggest that that weigh the most on, like why I am the mother I am, or why I approach parenting the way I do, was that I was the oldest of eight kids, so, mm-hmm. Oldest daughter of a big family with a mother who, as you guys know, had a lot of her own mental illness struggles, had to really become what I needed to be for her and the family. So, grew up without a lot of individuation looking back like so much of my life was just what does everybody else need me to be? And I'll be that to keep the peace. Also, you know, my mother was very intrusive. Very controlling. She had to know everything. She had to be super, super close where her mother had been a little more avoidant and I think she had felt the pain of that. She had determined like she was gonna be best friends with her kids and that was not an option. Mm-hmm. That was not like, I would like to be your friend. It was like, we are best friends and you will tell me everything. So yeah. She probably agreed with the statement that she was biologically like hardwired to have to be with you and that's how she could keep you safe. Yes, yes. And that she knew what was best for me and that her, yeah, that was like a gift given her by being my mother, she innately knew what I needed and her believing that. She really stifled my ability to know for myself what I needed. So that's an important thing to know going into this because as we contrasted it with your framework, right? Mm-hmm. What was your childhood and your parenting with your mother like? I was number eight of 10 children, number seven of eight daughters. By the time my parents had me, they were pretty much done being parents. They were so over it out. Yes. And so while I had a stay-at-home mom and she was there when I got up and she was there when I got home, she was not someone that you could really connect with emotionally. So even though she was there, it wasn't, it wasn't a really great situation having her there all the time. And I didn't realize. How much I would enjoy being a mother. I didn't plan, I didn't grow up thinking I wanted to have children, and then I married a man who had children and I thought maybe I'm not going to have kids and I'll just love his children. Wow. But then I ended up having, you know, nine children. I really fell in love with being a mother, but it wasn't something I had planned for that. I'm so glad you're sharing that piece too, because that just also blows my mind the, you did not grow up being like, I am just so excited. I can't wait to be a mom, and you end up with nine children. Meanwhile, I grew up like, yes, motherhood, I'm gonna be a wife, I'm gonna be a mom. I bought in entirely. Mm-hmm. That motherhood was gonna be the thing that completely fulfilled me and had no aspirations outside of like, I'm gonna stay at home and I'm gonna raise my kids. Mine was opposite. I thought I would have my PhD, I would have a career. I got married late in life for Mormons. I was 26, right. Had my first at 27, had my last at 42. So like, my youngest right now is 11. And I absolutely love, like, it's one of my, the favorite aspects of myself that I developed. So I, I relate to your listener where she's like, I had my time even though I don't feel like I had my time before my children. But it sounds like she really loves this new aspect of being a mother. And I really fell in love with it as well. But I didn't have your experience of having already raised seven children by the time you were 18. Well, yeah, my older siblings did that for me. And having just, I, I was really raising my mother as well. Yes. I don't think you raised your mother as much as I did. No, I was very parentified. I was a stabilizing force for the entire family. And then, you know, I, my journey with motherhood was more of when I did start having children, kind of being a little shellshocked around. Mm-hmm. Okay. This isn't actually, I'm not actually really like totally into this. I'm dysregulated probably the majority of the time by this uhhuh because I was such a young, young mother. Yeah. Got married at 19 and I had my first, I think it was like 22, 23. Mm-hmm. So these are all, and, and why we're taking the time to provide you this framework. So as we'll discuss a little later some of the facts we learned around this, this whole idea that we are biologically programmed to wanna be near our children. Is way, way more nuanced than we've been led to believe. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, because if it was 100% true, you and I and all women would experience that, and across the board it's very fluid. There's a spectrum. It's a massive, massive, massive spectrum. Yeah. That, um, that we have to be very aware of when we hear such a seductive sounding phrase. Mm-hmm. Right. This idea we're biologically wired. That is, that has been, you're not just saying that out of nowhere, that has been programmed culturally into us in the last multiple decades. Of parenting. And I guess we jump in now into talking about more of like what we discovered factually around that actual biological component. Yeah. Let's talk about it because I mean, within Mormonism we are definitely taught that, that God says, I mean within the, the, the Mormons have this revelation called the proclamation to the world on the family. Yep. And so we were told from the pulpit, your role by God is to nurture your children. Period. End of sentence. That that's, that's your world. It's it like that is the, the, the beginning of the sentence and the end of the sentence is you are a nurturer. Done. Yeah. But it's not just within Mormonism. It's not within fundamentalism. It's really in this idea of the nuclear family. Where the mother needs to come out of the workforce, off the farm, like she is this person that runs the household for the benefit of everyone in there, for the benefit of the husband, most of all, so that he can go out into the world and create and bring in money, and she's there to consume and produce within the home and raise the children. So it's not just a religious idea, it's, yeah, very much a capital capitalist, capitalist idea within this box. This is your role. Yeah. The unpaid labor of women is really, really important. But if we just talk about it as, oh, the man gets to go out and earn money for his labor, you need to stay home and not be paid for your labor. It doesn't sound as sexy as, no, this is, you're biologically wired to need to be near your children and. I just wanna offer that there has been a lot of, I mean, in the last 20 to 30 years, parenting styles that have come out of this when we talk about helicopter parenting and you know, empty nest syndrome. Mm-hmm. From your entire identity as a woman, without you knowing it being brainwashed into my soul role is to be here for my kids, and that was me. So in this discussion, it's important to remember that we have bigger cultural forces at play. And Quinn, why don't you take us into some of the biological components that are real in this process? Yeah, because I don't want to dismiss the biology out of hand, as in most situations with humans, there is truth about nurture and there's truth about nature, and it's the combination of the two that make it so potent. It makes us more likely to attribute everything to one side. So while your listener is saying it's all nature, what we want people to understand is from what we just talked about, is that there's the nurture, there's the water you're swimming in that makes it feel so compelling. But I also want to be careful to not dismiss biology out of hand because we are dealing with maternal hormones. And I think that's what awakened in me when I held my first child and I was like, OMG, this is what they were talking about. I have so much love for this being. And not everyone experiences that. Mm-hmm. But there are those hormones, oxytocin, prolactin, estradiol, progesterone that influences this caregiving behavior. It influences the way our milk is created and formed and drops to feed this child. It enhances the bonding. If you've ever nursed your baby and you see them just kind of drunk off of your milk and you're like, oh my God, this is the best. And yet, studies show that these hormone levels that affect our emotional regulation and attachment readiness, it's affected by our situation, a woman in a domestic violence situation that's going to have an impact. On all of these hormones, as opposed to you feeling very safe and loved in your relationship, that's going to affect your hormones. So it's not as easy as separating it from women like are broken or not broken. It's the, it's this interplay between the water that we're swimming in and the biology that we have. Yeah. And I think another aspect of understanding kind of the science side of this is the study around epigenetics. Mm-hmm. And that yes, you can have a gene that maybe is predisposed one way, but until it gets turned on or turned off, it's not actually going to show up. And so in this example that you used of like a woman who's maybe in a safer environment when she gives birth, those, those maternal instincts being turned on, I go so much to. Birth of my first child, like mm-hmm. We had moved out to North Carolina for a month so that my ex-husband could get job training. I was in a city I'd never been in before. Eight months pregnant. No. OBS would take me because I was so far in my pregnancy. Every OB I called, I didn't even know this was a thing, but every BI called refused to take me because they didn't wanna take on the risk of taking someone so late in her pregnancy and, oh my god. Yes. And naively not knowing like really anything. This is, you know, just the broken lineage of mothers and grandmothers, like not understanding what birth is like. I was like, I'll just go through it with Shay. It'll be like a bonding experience for us. And I told my mother and my, my mother-in-law, like not to come out. Oh, we were gonna go through it together. And that birth was with, you know, a hospital staff, an on-call doctor that I'd never met before. Some guy. And after pushing for, you know, I think it was like, it was, it was a lot of pushing for a long time and a nine, nine pound, eight ounce baby. Like it, by all accounts, the experience was more traumatic than, yeah. Than the bonding. For you. The bonding. Yeah. For me. Exactly. That's so important because we know postpartum depression mm-hmm. Is a huge aspect for many women. Yeah. And we were literally talking about this, this week, just like how, what's the book you've been reading that talks about how women visible women. Invisible women tell, just give a little bit about about it. Yeah. It's this deep dive into how men are the default human. And so everything from safety features to how bathrooms are organized to studies that are even supposed to apply to women are done on men, and that men are the default. And so we don't study, like, we'll study depression, but it's easier to study depression in men because they don't have the hormonal fluctuations. And so even studies that are on postpartum depression are often just generalized from what we know about depression in men. I would. Like to push the idea that maybe postpartum depression is far more common than what we are willing to admit. We really don't know how common it is. We hear about the horrific cases where a mother harms herself or harms her baby that the postpartum depression has gotten so bad. Mm-hmm. But I think with the hormone fluctuations post birth that we rely on for maternal bonding, given our economic situation, our healthcare situation, our relationship situation, all of these hormones can create a lot of fear in us. And, and a lot of it we just don't know because we don't generally study women. And also the impact of like, nobody prepping me for that. Yes. There was never a conversation growing up that was like, Hey, you may not feel drawn towards your children after you birth them. You may feel depressed and isolated and nobody, you know, just now I'm thinking like, if this was my own daughter, I would've been like, oh my God, sweetie, you're gonna be in a different city. You're gonna be all by yourself. You're gonna have, yeah, there may be people supporting you kind of through the church, but they're gonna be people you just met like a few weeks ago. Mm-hmm. This is gonna be really hard on your mental health. We have got to support you. There was none of that because as you're raised in this world where like you're a woman, you're gonna be able to do it. You're, you're just having a baby. Yeah. And I think it's important to jump back a few generations where. My grandmas, they had much more of a culture of community and interrelationship and mother supporting mothers where it wasn't, you have your baby, you're sent home and you're alone in your apartment. Yep. In this city and a lot of industrialized countries today, they send nurses and midwives into the home to check on the moms. That so much more support is given to help this transition. But if this transition from not being a mother to being a mother was automatic and biologically wired, we wouldn't have to work on it. And there are a lot of women that have to work on it. Yeah. And that being said, I don't feel like I did have to work on it. Yes. But I want to acknowledge there are some women that do. And I even, I love that we're having this, I love that this is like an unexpected gem kind of rabbit hole of this episode. Yes. This is not the heart of the episode, but I do think we're spending time on it because it is so important for our conversation, especially in the us, in our politics right now with this crazy. Emphasis right now that like women should be having more babies, just like across the board, that like, this is what women were born to do because look, their bodies can do it, so they should be doing it. And that somehow they're gonna actually like in an environment where they don't actually have support from, from the, their communities, from the government financial support to do this, that this is gonna be a good thing. Yes. I love that line where you're like, their bodies are able to do this, so they should do this. And I'm like, men's bodies are able to throw logs so they could do that. We don't say that about men. No. Oh my God, no. So yes, it's, we've kind of gone deep into this and I, I, I also think though this is like, this is. Important education for all of us. When we talk about boots on the ground, this is the kind of discussions you and I have Yeah. That go into the deep nuances of what it actually looks like to be a human living, a human life. And for me, this idea that you will be biologically wired to be close to your kids was not the case for me. Yeah. And I think it's good to provide that kind of perspective around people wondering why my children maybe are not the thing that I love being around the most, or my top priority. And if you understand more of the context Yeah. Of what I went through and experienced. And then, I mean, you couple that with like, after I had my children, we went back and I raised them by myself. You know, I was, you had a husband that worked late hours, not really available. You were a single mom all the time. A married single mother. Yeah. Living in a town with no family. Yeah. And that is actually not that rare that that's what I'm coming to learn. Like there are actually a lot of people who know what that feels like. And you know, even if your family is local, it doesn't mean they're actually like in that, in there raising your children like just 200 years ago in human history, we did. That's the really, like we have to keep repeating this way of raising children in a nuclear family where it's just a mother and a father providing for the entire needs. And often just a mother, if you have a father that is working outside of the home all the time. So you as a single person are providing the entire support for another human's development. When we frame it out that way, it's like, oh, it makes sense that there are a lot of us, a little bit more in my experience as well, that like those hormones were so fucked by the trauma and the pressure and the overwhelm of that task being placed solely on our shoulders. Yeah. That a lot of that didn't kick in. And it doesn't mean that you don't love your kids. No. It has nothing to do with that. No. But it does mean when you talk about like, oh, I just love snuggling with my children. I just love when they come in and snuggle and you know, we're doing story time at night and, and by the like third story I'm like, okay, this has been fun night. I need to go to bed. Yes, yes. Like, yes. I think that's important to note. Like we have these different responses to our children mm-hmm. To our mothering, not because we have different hormones, but we have different backgrounds. Different situations. Yes. Now, we've talked a lot about the biology of the mother, but I think it's important to talk about the biology of the baby and the attachment of the baby, because I think where your listener, I'd like to add some nuance is that it's the baby, it's the infant that is biologically predisposed to have a close bond with the caregiver rather than the other way around, because that's where the evolutionary survival advantage comes from, when the baby can be soothed by the caregiver. And we know a lot more about reactive attachment disorders and that a child does need. A, a secure this, this is where we saw it. We say a child really only needs one securely attached parent because, and and the why this is so important, when we discovered this piece, when we were researching factually and, and you know, talking specifically about John Bowlby's attachment theory, okay. I think we've extrapolated the whole infants are pre-disposed to biologically bond with their caregivers. And we've like thought that that goes back the other way as well. Mm-hmm. That you as a parent are also that way. But you have to understand that for the child, that is an evolutionary survival advantage because they are helpless. So they are biologically bonded, like, take care of me. But you as an adult. Actually it was so great when I was talking to Quinn about this, I was like, actually, if you think about it, like I'm obviously extrapolating massively, but way back when, like having a baby strapped to you that was crying if you lived in the wilderness was probably not an evolutionary advantage. Right? Right. Like it was a huge risk. It's a huge risk. And that is the reality of having children. If we look at it statistically, remember, what did you tell me? The biggest indicator that women will live in poverty is if they have children. Yes. Yes. So let's let that land a little bit more on understanding. And this goes to what you said with you were like, so much of this comes from a patriarchal. Lens of training women to, how did you say it? You were like, how do we keep women dependent? How do we keep women dependent? We need to tell them that their children's survival depends on them. That their unpaid labor is, is an honor a privilege, and that their partner is not capable of nurturing. Yes. That women are just naturally that way. Men aren't or men can't. The learned helplessness of men. Because when we look at this, what would be the advantage of you being the only person that can care for your child? There really is no biological evolutionary advantage. No. There's an advantage to have your child be safe with many caregivers. The husband or you know, father of the child, grandma. The grandma, neighbors, the aunties, the cousins group. Like it was when we were in communities. Yeah. But if you buy into this idea that you are the only one and then your spouse is incapable, like we've been trained to think mm-hmm. Like, well men are not the natural nurturers. Yeah. Then you, you can't leave with, and it creates what that word that she says, agony. Yes. How do you deal with the agony? Oh boy. Do I get it? Yes. And that's what I love is in sharing, in really using my story to show how much this is not in. It's not a default. It emphasizes and kind of contrast so beautifully with what is happening for you and her and the agony that the two of, mm-hmm. Okay. So where is this agony coming from? It's coming from this idea that without you, your children will suffer immeasurably. Yes. And we're gonna break down because we do have to address it in two different ways. Yeah. There's the aspect of what I was ex and, and the crazy thing is, y'all, I experienced this when I got divorced. I had my own, like, I don't want my kids being alone with their dad. I'm the primary caregiver. I'm the stay-at-home mom. They've never even had a night alone with their dad without like a mom or a grandma there. Okay? Mm-hmm. So there's this aspect, but still him being a safe person. Versus, and what we'll get to go into, which I think is a little bit more of the very particular experience that you and her are experiencing it, it's different when you have a partner that you are worried will not show up, that will be abusive, that will be neglectful, that will emotionally hurt your children and that is different. Yeah. So we have to really dive into both of those. But I think leaving this first section, we're hopefully helping you guys just open and question more this whole idea that we are biologically wired versus understanding that society and a lot of other factors have kind of told us that this is our most important identity as women. And so really watching that in ourselves and seeing as we're gonna talk about if part of why we're distressed that our children are not gonna be with us all the time is because we are losing our identity. As being the sole provider, the one that knows them best, the one that knows them better than their dad ever could. Right. Quinn? Yeah. Yeah. Like we are super special, but I also want to just shine a light'cause it's, it's kind of blowing my mind how we used to say that women were incapable of so many things. Like they couldn't do hard work, they couldn't go to college because it would affect their reproductive organs. Like we've always had these limits on what a woman is capable of doing. And we still have a lot of those limits when we talk about what dads are capable of doing. Yes. They're both bullshit. Humans are capable of far more than we give ourselves credit for, but we've drawn the line in these gendered ways that women do this, men do that, and we've been more expansive around what women are capable of and given us more rights and more opportunities to grow in different ways. And I think it's time we give our partners that opportunity as well. Like even if it hasn't been fully developed in them as nurturers. So that, I know that's not where we're going with this one, but I just wanna put a pin in it. Well, I mean, we kind of are, because you saw your ex really step up in ways I never would have ever, ever dreamed. Yeah. Like, and this, what we're, what we're dancing around in so much of this episode is the episodes about the tragedy of heterosexuality. Yeah. This is just another reverberation off of that root issue of when we make everybody have to play very specific gender roles, heterosexual gender roles, then it does not allow for the very human experience of when, just because of the way your life has evolved, you don't fit those roles. Yeah. And I have had men reach out. I'm thinking of a man who reached out that listens to the podcast where he's like, I am a stay at home dad. Mm-hmm. You know, I actually resonate a lot. I listen to your podcast because I actually resonate a lot with being in the position a lot of your viewers are in. Yes. So, even though this podcast is, you know, geared towards women concerning divorce because of the historical. Precedents. Yeah. The very real reality that I want everybody to keep remembering is that these are constructed roles. Yeah. That really narrowly define humans. And as we saw in my instance, so we're getting to talk about, the rest of the episode is gonna be focused on these two different challenges. So we've kind of outlined and hopefully made you guys question if it's not guaranteed that it's all biologically Yes, there's some component of that. What? What are the challenges that we're facing then when we're getting divorced and we are stressed about our kids being with the other parent? The first challenge. Is when we are having a lot of fear and discomfort of the loss of time being spent with our children, the loss of the memories we get to have with them. Mm-hmm. We know the other parent isn't necessarily a bad parent, but also maybe because we've been in such strong roles of us over caretaking and handling everything, we don't entirely trust that they're gonna be able to step up and do it. Yeah. And that, that was my situation for sure. Yeah. My ex-husband and I played the roles entirely. I'd been a stay at home mom for 10 years without any kind of work, and he was an investment banker. So long, long hours gone most of the time. Did not know the kids, you know, doctors, dentists, didn't attend parent teacher moments, didn't go to parent nights, didn't get up and take the kids to school in the morning. Not because I don't think he would've wanted to, but just like. These were the roles. Mm-hmm. And we were playing them. Yeah. And to do them would've required, like an episode we've talked about in the past would've required him to give up some really great, easier benefits, you know, of just not having to get up, not having to worry about that stuff. It would've taken extra effort for him to lean in in those ways. So he wasn't gonna until we got divorced. What a gift. What a gift. And I, I mean that like, it's such a gift to him. Like it's the the heavy lift that you don't know you can do until you have no other choice than to do it. Yep. Yep. And women get that a lot in just being a mother. But also all of the responsibilities that we have that we didn't know we could do until we did it. And this is one of the ways that the men get to do that. Yeah. And in some of the instances, which I've seen in my own case, I've seen in some of my other clients' cases, I think I'm gonna be writing a post on this soon, on the substack, around this whole idea of like, when you divorce the good guy. Mm-hmm. You know, when you divorce the good guy, the, the struggle's different in that you have to give up control. Mm-hmm. You have to give up being the one that's taking care of everybody and always knowing what's going on. I remember huge, you remember coaching me through this. I think a lot of my stuff in the beginning was like, they're not getting to bed on time over there, or they're on devices all the time, or he's not actually like connecting with them. A lot of judgment, getting to feel superior because you know, over here we have chores and over here we're learning responsibility. And over there they're on devices all. Do you remember that? Yes. Oh yes. So there's this idea that we are losing. Our kids. We're losing them. We're losing time. We are losing. And I want to keep in mind that the point of all of this, it really is difficult as humans to overlook our own suffering. But as a parent, I want to bring you back again and again and again to the idea of you're raising another person and how can we best support the growth of this other person and in supporting their growth? Believe it or not, we get to grow as well. So I had to go from this point of I am losing my kids for half the time. I never had 50 50. You have that situation with you where you do have the 50 50. Mm-hmm. But even for the women who are. Losing custody half the time. See, even the way I think about it, I'm like losing. They're losing. I think a helpful reframe is that your child, just like gaining a community 200 years ago, they are gaining, they now have two homes where they get to experience safety and love and experiences and resilience. And whether that home is grandma's home or ex-husband's home or a daycare, finding that other place with humans to trust. It doesn't negate what you offer. Mm-hmm. But it does give them the experience of Mom is a safe place, dad is a safe place. This daycare place is a safe place, nanas mm-hmm. Is a safe place. And it expands their sense of freedom and belonging in this world. Yeah. Which they're going to need as adults. Yes. That is what we want for our children. Ultimately, we want them to not have their entire life wrapped up because if, if it's only this one area, my home is the safest place. Mm-hmm. Then one day, if they too face being with a partner, that actually is not a fit for them. They don't have a brain that's like, there are other safe people in my life that I can be connected to. Makes me think so much of what happens, you know? In the tragedy of heterosexuality when she's talking about, you know, queer communities, how you spread out your connection over a bigger group of people and you feel safer because your entire mental health is not just on your one partner. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So I think the biggest piece is processing your grief at Yeah. The losing them feeling with, with your own support group, you know? Yeah. With your therapist, with your coach, with that's, we have women in our community that are doing that right now. Yeah. Because what's really happening there for you if, if it, you've got a safe partner who may need to step up and kind of grow in some ways, but if you are feeling like you are losing them. It's also examining how much of my identity as being their caregiver. Am I losing? And this is where a lot of women talk about when my kids aren't with me, I feel lonely. I don't have anything to do. I don't know who I am without them. Yes, yes. Now, all of that being said, I think there are some boots on the ground, things that you can do to help this transition be easier. And recognizing that any new transition can be challenging. Yes. And that's okay. Nothing's gone wrong just because you feel dysregulated or your child feels dysregulated with this new situation. So I think that it's important to have, especially for the younger children. Goodbye rituals and they do some of those automatically as far as they're going to pack a bag to go to the other house. If you keep the majority of their things and they don't have double of everything, they're probably gonna pack some things. Do they give you a hug? Do you tell them, okay, I'm gonna see you at this time, or This is when you're gonna be picked up, you know, setting some expectations? Mm-hmm. I always tell my kids, I hope you have a great time. And I try to mean it. I try to trust that they really are. So there is this sendoff. I always make sure they're fed, you know, things that I'm concerned might not happen at dad's house, but I want to have those consistent rituals. This is what it feels like to go to dad's house and just in a systematic way that it's like this off ramp from mom's house. Then we have an on-ramp back to mom's house. Yep. Sometimes I pick them up and I have a 45 minute drive back home. Oftentimes they're just dropped off at my house when they're supposed to be at their dad's, and so they're just suddenly home. And if that's the case, that's when I hug them and I hold them and I listen to them and I make sure they're fed again. And I ask them, what's the best part of your weekend or this time with dad? And sometimes they have things to share, sometimes they don't. And letting it all be okay, but allowing for that reconnection back home, back with me because I think it's really natural to have some kind of dysregulation. And that's true if they go to dad's for the weekend or if they go to grandma's for the weekend or they go spend a weekend at scout camp or with their friends. Yep. It's a human thing to need to come back and co-regulate with people at home. How do you do it with your boys? Yeah, I think ours, um, in the beginning, one of the things that helped was, I remember, I don't do this anymore, but when they were younger, we had a calendar that was like highlighted with like the days they would be at dad's, the days they would be at mine, just so that they would know what was coming. Yeah. When they were going to dads, when they were gonna be at moms. And then, um, my kids have always been super stoked to go to their dads because there's way more video games. Um, you know, and I've, I've learned to make a lot of peace with that and to feel grateful that, you know, their dad works from home, so mm-hmm. They still get a lot of care from their dad, even if they're on devices for a lot of it, because he has to work. This is also where we have to step away from the, like, perfectionistic ideas of what our lives need to be. Yeah. And kind of get real with this is what life is and it's still good. But similar to you, when my kids come back, I always expect that day is gonna be a little bit dysregulating for everybody and, and I intentionally when they're gone resource myself. Mm-hmm. You know? Yeah. I am not like, oh, I'm gonna get my entire house cleaned and I'm gonna do all this shit and I'm gonna get everything done. I've taken an approach of I need to be filling my cup fully when they're gone so that when they come back there's overflow. And then on those days, yeah. I try to, you know, I know they're gonna need some time on devices as well, instead of just like, let me be with you all the time. Tell me everything that's not about them. That's about me needing to feel connected to them and needing to know that they wanna be here and love me. And so, yeah. I agree. Trying to be a little more chill. Yeah. To kind of parse that what is my child's true need and I can help meet that versus, mm-hmm. What do I need? And I want my child to meet that. Yeah. And instead just see that, acknowledge it and take it to your girlfriend. Take it to your therapist. Take it to your coach. It's not your child's job to make you feel better. It's not your child's job to help you regulate. No. This, this is the whole, they biologically need you to regulate Uhhuh. They are not there to help you regulate through them, which is what I had to do as a parentified child for my mother. Yeah. That's a key distinction. Um, one of the other things I love when we're talking about these, these ways to kind of shift when we're mm-hmm. Thinking about this dynamic is I had to, and I'm, I'm even doing this now, in fact, it's probably been a little bit more so this year is recognizing like the foundation we have doesn't just come from the amount of time we're together. You know, instead of this, um, quantity of time, you really have to shift away from, it's about quantity to quality. And I had this moment recently with Joe because I'm really not seeing my oldest son very much anymore with him living at his dad's. He's so busy with school and I kinda had an emotional moment with him this week where I cried and I said, can, can we just choose to believe that like I already did enough? Right? I am putting that in air quotes, but like, but this is that idea of like, I've already built the foundation there in showing up and loving him and being there for the ways that I could, in the ways that I could because here's the reality, y'all, they eventually grow up and leave. Like you have to make peace with that at some point. Yeah. That, that your, the control is gone and they have flown the, you know, and my kids are probably, I'm realizing because of the divorce and because we've already gone through so much of this, it looks like they're gonna fly the coop a little earlier. And same with your kids. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's natural. I think we've decided as a society, a child is ready to move out and start college at 18. Mine, I'll start college early. I think most kids are, you know, raring for more responsibility and growth. I, I'm a huge believer in giving them that opportunity, but also being the backstop and the support. I think it's really unnatural. If anything that. You treat someone as a child until their 18th birthday, and then you're like, okay, you're ready. And so I'm more about transitions and a support network and that kind of thing. And I think you make a really good point, this idea I've given them enough, or at least I've, I have built a foundation with my child, so, so your listener, where she's, she has this young son, five years old. Yeah. Still young. Yeah. Now she still, even at that young age, has given him so much of a foundation of her love and safety and it doesn't go away. No. By him being with dad part of the time, which we think it does, we think less time with us, means their foundation, their connection with us will be weakened. I love you making that point. Like no. Yeah. Yeah. And my youngest, she was six at the time of the divorce. And so some of the things that we did, she has a stuffed turtle that she brings between houses. Now, just realize if they have a very special thing that they need in order to sleep and they leave it at the other parent's house, you'll need to get it. But it, it can be helpful to have things that go between houses or I would put on like a dark red lipstick and kiss the palm of her hand. And I'm like, if you get lonely, just look at the kiss like, I'm there. And, and so it wasn't obtrusive like it was there. She could put her hand around it or hug herself. With that hand, I'm like, I'm still a part of you. And in our divorce decree, the kids have access to a telephone so they can reach out. So if I am the one that usually. Helps them and regulates with them. I'm still available and that's an important part because I don't have a really safe partner, and so that's one of the things, but I think for anyone to realize, you can still talk to your child, it's okay. I think having a photo that can go with them, so if they want to look at a picture of you or a journal where they can be writing things that they're enjoying or emotions that they're having a hard time, or things that they want to talk to you about, but just realize that anything you do, your co-parent has the right to do as well. Mm-hmm. So if your co-parent wants to call every night like mine does. Your kids get to talk to your co-parent when they're at your house. If he wants to send a picture of himself with your children and they want to display it, he gets to do that. If, if he wants to give them a journal and say, write down everything you do at your mom's house, he gets to do that. You know, just realize anything that you do, your partner gets to do too. Yeah. And I think, you know, it is a little, I'm realizing as you're sharing these things, I'm like, this is a big difference. At least it's a big difference in mine because in my scenario, my ex-husband lives five minutes up the road. Yeah. You know, and I got really, that was just the way it worked out where he decided to live so closely because he took the divorce and went, I want to be a really good dad. And he dove in deeper. The divorce triggered in him a response to be an even better dad. So he lives up the road. And actually I found that with my children in the beginning when I would call them and they were at their dads, it actually was more dysregulating for them. This is a perfect example. Mm-hmm. Of like calling them actually seemed to upset them because it would remind them they were having a great time at their dad's. And then it would remind them that I wasn't there. Mm-hmm. And so we pretty early on just let go of the calling the kids when we were apart for the boots on the ground application of this seems to not work well for them. They seem to get upset when they, when we remind them through calling. And it, what that was, was me having to go, I need to resource myself more. Yes. If I'm missing them and wanting to call them, and I have made a, a intentional practice of never when they're leaving, saying like, I'm going to miss you or I miss you. I can't, you know, I can't wait to see you again. Like I have really tried to create space around never making them feel like somehow them leaving impacted or made it more difficult on me. Yes. Oh, I love that. Yeah. So that's, you know, in the instance where you have a parent where like they are doing great over there, they are loving their lives, and maybe you're just feeling a little bit of the loneliness and the sadness. Yeah. Not calling them if it's going to be something for you because you're, you know, missing them. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a big one. Yeah. And I think that along with the idea that time apart from you might be. Harming them to reframe that in terms of how time apart from you is teaching them important things about their resourcefulness, about their ability to handle different situations. Independence. It is, we know it's coming, that separation is part of growing up, but a child learning how to thrive in a variety of circumstances is a life skill that can serve your child in so many ways. And I love how you have embraced this idea of having this time away from your kids. It's not a time to do chores and just clean up the house and make life better for them when they get back. This is a time for you to resource yourself, and as your listener said in her email. She knows in her. Yeah. She gets this, she gets that. This is an important thing. Yes. Use this time to reclaim yourself outside of motherhood. Yeah. And this is such a good time for your child as well to resource them selves outside of their direct relationship with you. They get to practice skills like we practice nonviolent communication in our home. They get to practice that in another environment where that is not the way people communicate. They also learn how to cook for themselves. They know how to take care of themselves, which in a multiple multitude of ways, which I think this is why I was, so we're talking about the ease with which. It was a little bit easier for me to let my kids go because of these factors, right? Mm-hmm. To some extent. But a big piece of that was that I saw how my mother being completely engaged in my life and just enmeshed really, really messed me up. When I went to college, I had no life skills. I did not know how to feed myself. I barely knew how to do my laundry. I knew just like the rudimentary stuff, but how to live, how to be independent was not available to me. Yeah, and I look at my children now, and that is one of the things I am most proud of, is that they know they are loved and they know that they can do hard things. Yeah, like there is a level of self trust that has been built through this dynamic of going back and forth from the these their parents' homes and being loved in both environments and learning how to. Interact and relate in two different environments where there's different rules, where there's different, like if anything, my kids are really fucking smart now at knowing how to get what they want depending on which person they're talking to. Yep. Yeah. And that is a skill I want them to have in life. I know like my girls, they wanna get their noses pierced and they're like, how do we do it? Mom, can we do this? I'm like, you have to have your dad's permission. And they're like, let's tell dad that mom won't let us. I bet he'll say yes. Like your children's brain brains are forming neural pathways and all sorts of extra stuff. It's like a, the skills. The skills, yes. But gorgeous reframe from time away from me is going to be harmful for them. If you're in this instance where you have a co-parent that is like. Showing up. Showing, you know, in the ways that they can, and even then, even if they're not to the level that my ex-husband is, where he has like, I wanna be the best dad and has really engaged in a lot of ways. Yeah. Still your children are learning things that are important to them. And this goes back to the piece of like having to accept you chose to marry that person. Yes. And that person is your kid's parent. Yes. Oh, yes. Yes. And that is for you to deal with instead. It's not for your kids. But I love how you have brought in this idea of what your mother modeled for you and for my mom, she was a stay at home mom. She was always like around, but not really emotionally connected to us. And I think she would've benefited from being away from us. She had a lot of hopes and dreams. She wanted to finish her college education. She got married when she was 19. I think she would have really benefited from a different kind of lifestyle. Of course, there's no way to know. Mm-hmm. But I, I want us to be careful that we model for our children courage and trust. Yes. And wanna see and letting them see that as what an adult does, regardless of what your co-parent does. Yes, but showing up in a way that you can be proud of. And it may not, I mean, we don't get to decide how our kids process this whole experience. No. So we just do the best we can. We do the best we can, but I think it's important to model what we want to show our children. Yeah. It, it comes back to the like, are you living the life you would want your children to live? Yeah. Yeah. And if, if you're not, and you're telling them, go be brave, go do these things, but you are modeling martyrdom. Mm-hmm. That's what they are gonna see and interpret as the role. Yes. You can't, the blueprint you give is the blueprint you live. It's not the blueprint. You speak or tell them is what they should be. It's the blueprint you live. And this is where we really. And this goes back to the listeners, the message of like, yes, there is a short-term cost, right? Mm-hmm. Yes. You are not. I have missed out on things in my children's lives. I got a message last night that came through of my oldest at a birthday party with a whole bunch of other friends. I didn't even know he was going to that birthday party, and I felt the sting of like, oh, I didn't even know he was going to that and that feeling of like kind of being left out. Yeah. You know, they've been on family vacations with my ex-husband's family down to beautiful locations that I can't take them to. Yeah. You know, those are all things I get to hear stories from those vacations that I'm not a part of. So let me ask you this. If your goal is to model emotional adulthood and. You're hearing something or seeing a text and you're feeling that disappointment, you're hearing about these vacations. Tell us what that looks like. How do you model emotional adulthood for your children in your response to the reality of of feeling disappointment? Disappointment. Yeah. I think it's, um, in this specific one where you're feeling disappointed about a consequence of a choice you've made, right? And this is, this is where we get very real about this, is the real non-negotiable quote, consequence of divorce is that you're not gonna be with your kids a hundred percent of the time because you're not gonna be living with their other parents. A hundred percent of the time. So it's understanding that if that disappointment is related to a choice I have made, you know, or hearing about something fun that they're doing that I'm not a part of. It's registering that in my own body and understanding that's work for me to go process outside of my relationship with my children. That's for me when they are not with me to be journaling, to talking about, talking about with my coach, pouring out and, and that's the whole, like there is a short term cost of missing out on these parts of my children's lives for the long-term win that I am betting on. Mm-hmm. Of them hopefully having a shot at having a future where they get to thrive, unlike the future I got. From my parents staying married. Yeah. And perpetuating massive dysfunction and never really teaching me how to be on my own. So it's, you have to constantly be digesting that disappointment by keeping the long game in mind. And that's what you said at the beginning where you're like, we're gonna have to keep bringing you back to, yes, this is tough, but what is ultimately the best for your children and you being with them a hundred percent of the time? As you and I both learned, our mothers were with us all the time. Mm-hmm. Doesn't actually mean children that grow up to be healthy functioning adults. Yes. It's not the gu, it's not just not guaranteed. I agree. And our relationship with. Our kids is not guaranteed they have to be with us. You know, until they're 18, until they're emancipated, we will have contact with them, barring any unforeseen incident. But what you ultimately want is that you'll have a relationship with them into adulthood. Yes. And the people that my children choose to connect with in their adulthood is me. And not because I have all the answers or that I've done everything right, but I have consistently told them to trust themselves. I'm the one that extracted us from a cult. They realize that I trust them and I want them to trust themselves. I'm okay with them disappointing me. I tell them it's their job to disappoint me. Yes you do. I can handle it because I wish I had learned to disappoint people earlier in my life. So we've got to stay focused on the long game. Yes. It's tough when they're five. It's tough when they're toddlers to wrap your mind around 20 years from now. But that's where we have to go. What is the long game? Because I'm playing for the long game. I want my kids to have a party when I die. Not because I'm dead, because they know, they wanna celebrate that they had me in their life. That's what I want. Yes. Belonging. Yes. Yes. And when you ask, you know, when we think like, how do you do this? This is the work of emotional adulthood. This is the work of coaching. This is the work of being able to manage your mind so that when it freaks out and you feel disappointment, you do not because you can't process that emotion in your body lash out at your children. Yeah. You know, this is, the whole divorce doesn't give you that. Yeah. That's, that's the work that is squarely in your lane. This is the work of healing the codependency, healing your own people, pleasing, healing your own negation and abandonment of self that you learned in your childhood. All of that plays in creating an environment going forward where your children also wanna be with you and being ready. In the case, in mine, right this year, where it was like my oldest was like, I wanna be a dad's. Yeah. And to not blow up that relationship by trying to keep him so that I could continue to feel like a good mom because my kid wants to live with me. I wanna ask you something about that. Yeah. Because that sounds, I would be really, really disappointed. Really disappointed if one of my kids, and I know their father is constantly trying to talk them into moving with him. And I know it's not going to happen. But when I think just theoretically about your situation and what impact that had on your nervous system. I mean, I got to watch it with you. Mm-hmm. You processing that and it wasn't an immediate, okay, I'm good with this. I can see that this is good for him. It was a process over several months, and now he's been at his dad's for several months. How is your relationship with him now? Mm-hmm. That he got what he wanted? Um, well, and I think it's, you know, it's understanding that. Both of us. It, it, it was a complex process of me understanding this was what he was telling me straight up. He wanted, and this is the whole mm-hmm. Like trusting, especially when your kids get to that age. This is individuation. Yeah. This is moving into adulthood. He was telling me clearly what he wanted. I was fighting against it and saying, I know what you need best.'cause I really thought what he needed to be with his was, was his mother. I mean, guys, I literally just played this whole thing out this year and having to do my own deep grief work around acknowledging that because of my C-B-T-S-D, because of the trauma I've been through, I really couldn't show up for him in the ways that he was advocating for needing most. Yeah. And, and so, you know, it was a process of me also like self-reflecting and having to go. Okay. I have to let go of this perfect standard of what can I actually, and it makes me think of a comment, one of the women in our community recently posted, right? Where she's like, how do you do it all? And I haven't responded yet, but my response is gonna be like, you don't, I have tried to do it all and various things have been sacrificed in that. And I am having to this year reckon with like, okay, I need to change my priorities some. Mm-hmm. I cannot continue living as if I am a stay at home mom. It's just been a process I've had to learn over the last four to five years. I have to devote more of my energy to providing for myself and really focusing in on my business to protect things that also make the rest of this work. So, it's a deeply complex process that I'm so proud to say. Yes, I, I still have moments of grief as you know, from this week me being talking with Joe. But overall, our relationship has gotten so much better with me and my son. Like we look forward to when we are spending time together. I was asking Joey the other day and he's like, honestly, Brita, I think he just, he gets it more. He sees what you're dealing with. He sees the dynamic. He, instead of kind of engaging, when his brothers are pushing back against the rules, he's a little bit more like in support of you because he's, it's in a, he went through a very adult process of seeing, oh, my parents are human. They have feelings. They can't just provide everything and everything indiscriminately. Mm-hmm. And as hard as that was to be vulnerable and admit I can't do that. And this person can, you know, his dad is well established financially, he has got the extra energy to give the amount of attention that my oldest son needs and benefits from. Mm-hmm. And has his parents living right up the road. Mm-hmm. It's been great for him and for our relationship and I hope it continues to, to go that way. One of the ways that I think you have really killed it in a good way is that you have learned how to regulate your nervous system. And I think this is so key and we see this with the women in your community when they're spending their first few days without their children, that so much of it has to do with whether or not they have learned to regulate their nervous system. And that's kind of. A phrase that gets thrown around a lot. So what are some of the ways that you have learned to regulate your nervous system? And this isn't around fear that something bad is going to happen to your child.'cause we're dealing with this situation where your sons are with a, like a good guy, a good parent, but you are still maybe activated. Yeah. What does it look like to regulate your nervous system? I think one of the biggest keys that both of us benefited from was in coaching, learning about questioning your thoughts. Mm. You have to learn that my thoughts are what are activating these feelings. It's not actually the circumstance, it's what I'm making that circumstance mean. This is rooted in Byron Katie's work. Mm-hmm. With questioning and coming to really. See reality, understand it separate from your thoughts about it and that your thoughts are what are creating all of these feelings inside of you. And then, um, once you understand the feelings, being able to sit with and be with that in your body. Mm-hmm. And big aspect that helps with this is doing parts work. I'll often journal and just let those voices that are losing their shit out onto paper. Yes, you are. You journaling has been clutch for you. Yeah. And do parts work. I can't do it. I can't do it all in my mind if I just keep trying to, like, I, I can just feel this, if it gets too dysregulated, it has to be put on paper. And once it's on paper, then I can dialogue with it, you know? Mm-hmm. Kind of writing back and forth, like, tell me more about this, which is parts, work style, but just mm-hmm. Writing. And then of course the biggest one has been the C-P-T-S-D flashback management. Mm-hmm. Like just understanding, oh. I am in a flashback. I feel afraid, but I'm not in danger. I'm not going to die. This is a flashback and what do we need to do for a flashback? Running through the list that Peak Walker has been instrumental. What about for you, Quinn?'cause I know you've had some big dysregulating moments. Yeah. Regulating my nervous system looks like sometimes I give myself a timeout because I always have kids. I'm never without kids other than for a few hours when they're at school. So sometimes I give myself a timeout where I tell my kids I'm gonna be in my room, you know where I am, I need some time away, and they have no problem giving me that space. Or I'll go for a walk. I know that breath work has been important for both of us. Um, I know that you like to like cocoon and be held, and for me, I wanna go to the gym and lift something heavy, or I wanna turn up music really loud and stomp and jump and scream, like move the energy out of me. But I do it in such a way that it's not like. Punching a wall. It's like Mom is doing this for the purpose of regulating herself, so it's not dysregulating for everybody around me. Yes. And learning more about vagal nerve stimulation, humming meditation, tapping. Yeah. Um, I think that is really key as well. There are so many somatic practices that we can do and show our children. So now my children, I mean, I've had situations where my ex has been violent with me in front of my children, especially one child and helping her. Breathe and hold her while she shakes. Yeah. Those are skills she knows how to do because she's watched her mother do them. Yeah. And this isn't just learning to regulate your nervous system around custody issues. It's about life. Because life can be really dysregulating separate. Yes. From custody. But I think it's also important what you said earlier, that it's your job to regulate your nervous system. It is not your child's job to regulate or your child's job to reassure you that they're going to be okay. It's your job to reassure them you're gonna be okay, and I've got your back. Yeah. And I think it's important, like you said, with Byron Katie's work, I think one of her prime questions is. Who would I be without this thought or how would I feel without this thought? So if the thought is, I am biologically wired to my child, this is agony to not be with them 24 7, who would you be without that thought? And as I ask myself that question, I feel this immediate physical release because I can choose to believe something else. Yeah. And, and right after that, in Byron Katie's work, at the end there's a turnaround, which becomes where you take that thought and you turn it to something else, which is what we were doing in this episode where we're saying like, instead of thinking your children, apart from you are going to be so harmed. Apart from me, they are going to learn independence, they're going to learn self-trust. This is where you reframe, because if we don't reframe, we walk ourselves mentally into double binds. Yes. Where you are fucked either way. If you stay in your marriage, your mental health is going to deteriorate'cause you're married to someone you don't wanna be married to. But you get to be with your kids all the time. And if, but if, and so you're like, well, that's not a win-win. But if I leave, then my children don't get to be with me all the time, or they have to be alone with their dad. And that's not a win-win. And so we get stuck in this, you know, that's why we stay in considering divorce for so many years because often our minds have created a double bind where it's a loss one way or it's a loss a different way and we just can't pick who's gonna suffer. Yeah. And the truth is everyone is. Whether you stay married, whether you get divorced, have children, don't have children, you get to suffer. And the reality is when you get divorced, for most of us, the other parent is gonna have the kids some of the time. Mm-hmm. And the moms who don't have a co-parent that is suffering as well, a different flavor. But you can either fight it and resist it and fear it, or you can see it as what it is or what it has been for me, which is a chance to grow both for me, for my children, for my husband. We all get to grow through this. But avoiding suffering, that's not even No an option. It's not on the venue. Hard it. Yeah. And this is understanding when I say, you know, it's hard either way. There's no, we, we get stuck in the middle when we're like, I've gotta pick away where It's not gonna be hard. No, it's gonna be hard. It's just, which is the hard, that actually builds to something you want long term. You have to think in the long game. Yeah. When you zoom out, there's the perspective that you need. Yeah. And I think one of the things that the community does beautifully is that a lot of people, my God Yes. Relate. Yes. You get to talk to women who have walked through this and so they can say, yes, it really hurts. And, and there are some positive things. And you can develop these beautiful bonds with your children. And sometimes the father steps up and you get to explore who you are. So it doesn't just stop at the agony, it goes on to the ecstasy. Yes. And the other huge. Like piece that I love in the community is that because of the way I have built the community, it is absolutely also a place where we're with you though in the heart. Yeah. You know it that is the whole, there is a cost. Yeah. In the decision of divorce, there is a price that you pay. And I'm not gonna lie to you and say for those of you that have nervous systems like Quinn that are very maternal attached to your children. I mean, I have a client right now, a one-on-one client who we have just circled around this and back to this over and over and over again of how much she wants to be with her children every single day. Yeah. And misses them when she's not. Yeah. And so. That is a cost that she's going to be paying that I didn't pay in the same way I'm paying it in different ways.'cause there's a hard for everybody. But that wasn't the exact hard in my instance. And I love that in the community there is space for all of that in mm-hmm. Acknowledging yes. That there are, there are benefits that come out. There are ways we can see things differently. That's the coaching aspect. And also just processing when the cost of what you're going through is just hard. Yeah. And like we started to talk about at the beginning where there's this spectrum of maternal attachment, there is a spectrum of hard and your hard is very specific to you. Mm-hmm. And it's okay. That is hard. It's okay. Like I know, and I even saying that, I don't wanna make it sound trite because sometimes it's so, it's so hard. It takes your breath away for you and we're here for it. Maybe that's a better way of saying it. I love it. And I think hopefully those of you that have listened to the podcast for a long time and know Quinn's story, know me, know that when we say we're here for the hard, that is not trite. In the fucking least. Yeah. The women into my community that interact with us often that know, you know, they know we get it and we are not here to, it's such a balance that we are constantly negotiating in our episodes in the way we coach of Yes, bringing in the aspect of. You have this incredible superpower with your brain to to choose again what you wanna think and how you wanna feel and to not add additional suffering. Mm-hmm. By keeping beliefs like we're biologically wired, that literally create agony in your body above and beyond what you're already feeling. So there's that aspect, but then there's also the just like baseline aspect of sometimes life doesn't go the way we thought it was gonna go. And we are faced with very difficult decisions. Mm-hmm. Decisions that often we are the only emotional adult in the room making. God, I hate that so much. And that is tough. It's tough and welcome to the club. It doesn't, like you always say, it doesn't seem to be a glitch. It feature to be a feature feature. Being a human, at least in this time of humanity. Yeah. Where, and especially if you are a woman. Mm-hmm. At this time in the world where women have had these rights that have expanded our versions of ourselves, what we want for our lives, what we want in partnership, we are being faced with very difficult decisions. Mm-hmm. And it was difficult for the women back then that didn't even get the choice to make a decision. You know? I'm like, right. Welcome. It gets hard. It gets, it gets, and it, you know, it think so much, it keeps reminding me of Glennon Doyle's podcast. We can do hard things like, yeah. The hard, what's that baseball movie where he is like, the heart is what makes it great. I've been recently trying to understand a little bit more of that. Part of me that's like, um, it's a league of their own. Oh. Where he's, she's like, it's just so hard. And he's like, yeah, if it was easy, everybody would do it. Like the heart is what makes it great. And you, and I know that Quinn, if you were to ask us today to give up our life and go back and do something, that would be easier. But we wouldn't get to be who we are right now. We'd say no, wouldn't you? And if by easier you mean remarried, that's a hell no.'cause that I thought divorce would be hard. But now from this perspective, I, I would never go back. I would choose this hard. I would choose this hard for my kids. I love my kids. Yep. I adore my kids. I want my kids with me. And they have become better people by grow, growing through this as well. Yeah, definitely. Well, BI think we've, we've, um, yeah, so y'all, we, we we're looking at the timestamp on this episode and we are like, whoa, there is no way we are gonna be able to cover. Um, the second piece, we actually just like paused and chatted about this a second ago. We were like, Quin was like, how long is the episode? I was like, it's an hour and a half already. And we still haven't done the whole second P aspect, which is, you know what? We've talked all about how if you're getting divorced and you have a partner that actually is quote, a good person is gonna be able to co-parent well with you, what do you do if you have someone that you lack trust with And we've ultimately decided we are gonna have to make this a part one, part two. Again, again, typical, typical, typical. I think going forward I should have known, I even thought, looking at this outline, I was like, this is one hell of an outline. This is, this is gonna be unique and so surprise, we are going to end up putting the second half of the episode. I don't even even know it'll be this second half. We just really built out, like you guys got a lot of the material in this first one, but for part two, that's where we'll get to dive in because I really do feel like this is a, a piece where I want to spend a good amount of time because this is the heart of that listeners. Question is Yeah. What if though it is with a partner that you don't actually trust or feel safe with and you have your own childhood trauma around people like this, and so you don't wanna leave your kids with them. Yeah. That's gonna take some time for us to dig into. So y'all, we love you. This has been amazing. Mm-hmm. I feel like we were like sneaking out the door, like, okay, we'll see you all next week. We are. Um, yes. Terribly sorry that we started this episode. Ambitiously thinking we'd get through all of it and the cases, it's just not, we get to change our mind an hour and a half through. Um, yeah, so this will be part one. Next week will be part two. Um. And I guess that's just how, how the universe ordered things. So, yeah. And part two, I'm really excited about because that is my experience. I thought that my spouse was going to be able to be a great dad going forward, and it turned out to be not that exactly, not that. So I have a lot of the boots on the ground experience of dealing with him, dealing with a legal system, finding ways to give my children skills that don't frighten them, but prepare them for different situations. And remember, my youngest was six when this all kind of hit the fan, so we've got some really great. Ideas and just actionable things you can do as well as continued reframes to help you be the strength and the model for your children of staying safe. Even if your situation is like mine, where sometimes I physically do not feel safe and how to deal with that. Yeah, absolutely. I cannot wait to dive into Quinn's. I've gotten to see this from behind the scenes. I've watched you, you did not start out thinking this is how things were gonna go. No, no. Surprise, surprise. Um, so I'm very excited to dig into that. I feel like we got to spend a lot of time on my perspective this first round, which I think is important.'cause there are a lot of women that are. In more of a, I don't want, I'm gonna lose my role kind of bit that you don't realize, but this is an opportunity in this next episode to really give you the other side, which there's just as many of you in this camp, honestly. Yeah. Yeah. And you may not know which camp you're in until you get in. This is true. You're right. You would've thought you were in Camp one when we started. Mm-hmm. And yeah. Yeah. Ended up in camp two, so yeah. All right, y'all, that's what we got for you today. We loved getting to spend it with you. I loved getting to spend it with Quinn. Our discussions are always, ugh, so delicious. And we will see you all next week. See you next week. Bye-Bye.