48. Personal Pain to Professional Purpose: Dr. Phindi Chowa Through Pregnancy, Partnership, and Finding Her Path

Hey doc! In today's episode of ✨Stethoscopes and Strollers✨, I sit down with Dr. Phindile Chowa, who shares her journey through pregnancy loss, cultural adaptation, and creating the medical practice she wished existed during her own struggles.

We explore:

• Breaking cultural norms as an African Physician in America
• The reality of pregnancy loss and anxiety in subsequent pregnancies
• How lacking support during crisis shaped her mission
• Transforming personal experience into patient care

Key Takeaways:

• Advocating for yourself as a patient
• Processing grief while maintaining a medical career
• Making decisions that honor your vision
• Creating the support you needed but didn't have

Doc, this conversation proves how our deepest struggles often lead us to our truest purpose. Sometimes the hardest paths create the most meaningful destinations.

Dr. Phindile Erika Chowa is a Board Certified Emergency Medicine Physician based in Atlanta, Georgia. She pursued her undergraduate studies and medical education at the University of Pittsburgh before completing her Emergency Medicine Residency at Harvard University.

With a passion for enhancing patient experiences, Dr. Chowa dedicated several years to a prominent academic hospital, where she ascended to an administrative role within the emergency department. Witnessing the transformative impact of the COVID-19 pandemic on healthcare delivery, she resolved to redefine her medical practice to prioritize patient dignity and accessibility.

Driven by her vision, Dr. Chowa founded EMCare2U, a concierge Medical Practice aimed at delivering healthcare directly to patients' homes. Her practice has a particular focus on postpartum wellness.

Author of the acclaimed book "What to Expect Next!," Dr. Chowa empowers mothers with invaluable insights and guidance for a healthy postpartum journey. Additionally, she co-hosts the podcast "Hey Doc Let’s Chat," where she discusses healthcare issues pertinent to women of color, contributing to a vital dialogue on inclusive healthcare.

Her patients consistently praise her for her intelligence, kindness, and compassionate approach to medicine, reflecting her unwavering commitment to improving lives through healthcare.

For more information about Dr. Chowa, you can visit her website and connect with her on Instagram.

Remember to subscribe to "Stethoscopes and Strollers" on your favorite podcast platform so you never miss an episode of encouragement and empowerment.

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Transcript

Hey doc, I'm back with another interview. I am so happy to finally get this interview scheduled. It's been coming for a while. I am joined by Dr. Phindi Chowa.  She's an emergency medicine physician and also a mom, just like you. So Dr. Chowa, please introduce yourself. Tell our listeners how many children you have and how old and anything else you want to share. 

Sure. So I'm Pindy. Um, I'm an ER doc by training, also a concierge physician in Atlanta. And I focus on postpartum moms. I have one child, I've been pregnant three times, but I have one beautiful living child. She's six years old. Um, she is amazing. And, um, I take being a mom very seriously. I love the gift that I've been handed. 

Oh, I love that. I love that. So we're definitely going to get into your journey through motherhood, but I want to take a step back because I want to talk about your cultural background and just to find out what, if any, impact it had on your ideas about motherhood. Ooh, that's a heavy one. so I'm originally born from a small country in Africa called Eswatini.

Um, it's about 1 million people. It's very tiny. It's a kingdom. So we have a, a king. and my father is from Zambia, um, also a country in Southern Africa. And so my parents actually met. In the United States of America, and then they moved back to Africa where they conceived all three of their children. so yeah, my, my background is pretty heavy.

I lived in Eswatini till I was nine, but you know, I lived in an African household and so the male and female roles are, you know, very different from traditional male and female roles as you would see in the United States, right? And so my mom, when we lived in Africa, she did Everything. Um, she was pretty much the, the, the house taker.

She cooked. she took care of us. but she also went to work. and so she was a pretty, um, impressive woman. And then when we moved to the United States, she actually had to take on more of a role of provider because she was able to do more. Because it's just hard for a man sometimes, especially a foreign man, in another country when you don't necessarily have the ability to work.

And so my mom was able to do more, um, in terms of employment. And so things change when we moved to America. you know, for, we didn't have the help that we had in Eswatini and my dad had to basically. Yeah. Get creative. And so for the first time in America, my dad cooked meals and he helped clean the house.

And for some people they would look at that as like, you know, Oh, he's getting abused, but he learned and he was able to adapt. Um, and so they were able to keep that going. They're still married after over four years and they just had to adapt to life and made it work. Oh, I love that. I love that because it's not the stereotypical story, you know, and it's proof that it can be done. 

It definitely can be done and be successful. Yeah,  I'm sure.  How was it for you seeing that change in the roles?  You know, I think it was, it was pretty remarkable because I actually remember, you know, my mom, we moved here because my mom went to school. And so, you know, for a long time, she did it all.

And then it just got to a point where she was unable to do it all. And so my dad struggled for a while, you know, my mom would go to school and then, you know, Pack up food in Tupperware boxes and, you know, styrofoam boxes and put it in the deep freezer. And, you know, my dad was like, I don't want to eat this anymore.

I'm not doing this anymore. And so, you know, he had to start cooking and, you know, things may not taste good initially. You know, whatever the case may be, but he adjusted, um, and now he cooks and it always surprises people from home. Cause it was like, what is this man doing? But he cooks for himself and he learned how to do that.

And I saw it as a kid and I think it's important, right? Cause it's like adaptability, and just in looking for a spouse and you want somebody who's adaptable, right? Because sometimes it's not always 50, 50, sometimes it's. 60, 40, sometimes it's 80, 20, you know, depending on where you are in life as partners, you have to be able to adjust, um, and you know, stand in the gap for your other person.

And so my dad loves my mom and my mom loves my dad and they had to do that for each other to survive in a completely different society.  I love everything you just said, and especially that phrase of standing the gap because there's so much of that that has to be done for a partnership, which is another thing I love that you said, that word, that for a partnership to be successful.

So that is beautiful that that was the example that you saw, um, in the context of two hardworking people that were trying to make it as immigrants. So I have a special place in my heart for immigrants as I am one as well. So tell me. When you were entering the phase where you were considering having your first, what was, give me the context for your life at that time. 

Like first marriage first. I just, I wanted to leave it open so that you could say it. First marriage, first child. Yeah. Um, you know, I.  I was very shy. Oh, my friends would tell you I'm not shy, but I felt like I was shy. So, you know, when you know me, I'm not shy, but  if it's a group setting, I'm typically going to be quiet until I get to know people, then I'm going to be out there.

But as you know, I didn't date much, right. I didn't have a boyfriend in high school. I didn't really even think about boys in high school. And then when I went to college, um, you know, College was fun. You hung out. Um, I may have dated here, but I wasn't the, you know, let me have multiple boyfriends type of a person.

And so  I think that, when I finally, met my husband. I was in a place where I was celibate. I was like, you know, very into religion, very into, God. And I just did not want to waste my time with, people would waste my time basically. And so I met him at a party. Someone introduced me to him and, um, kind of just jumped right in.

He was very, he was, Clear about what he wanted, and I was very ready, I guess, to be in a relationship, to be married, to have kids. I was ready to move on to a different phase of my life. I was young, I would say, how old I, for me, I guess that was, I was in my twenties, early twenties. Okay.

That is young. That's young. I mean, I haven't dated. So for me, that's young, right? So yeah, that was my first, you know, had one boyfriend who was like my first boyfriend when I was 18 and then it was my husband, uh, well it was two, two boyfriends, , and then it was my husband. And so I didn't really have that experience.

experience like most people had. And so I was relatively young when I got into that relationship. And so he initially told me that he had a child, and you know, he came straight up. I have a kid. Like, how do you feel about that? I was like, I don't know what that means, but sure. Let's, let's do this. And so we dated.

there were a lot of things in my marriage. I think I, you know, may have overlooked just lack of experience and then also. Not really prioritizing myself and then also just the, the dream, right? You want to be married, you want to start a family, you want to have kids. Um, and so there were a lot of differences in our thought process of things that I overlooked in that,  dating process.

, but really was driven by the desire to move on to the next phase of my life. Um, and so we got together. Um, and, um, you know, he proposed,, and we got married in 2016, and was married for about six years. and after that six year period, you know, things didn't go so well. I would say after I gave birth to my daughter, Things really kind of went south.

And I realized that the person that I thought I had married wasn't the person that was there. , and maybe they were always there. Right. I think having a child also exposes the cracks in marriages, exposes relationships. And so I realized a lot about myself going through that process. of being like, who is this person?

Um, and sort of lamenting the person that I thought I had married. , and then trying to figure out who I was and what I wanted. and for the first time of my life I had to learn about, Me and what I wanted and what my dreams were and what I wanted, you know, so I felt like for a long time I, I was, you know, driven by a vision driven by what I thought society would want for me, driven by what, how others would view me.

 And I never really took a deep dive about like what I needed, what I wanted. And so went through a transformative, time for sure. After having my child. Yeah, that is a lot. And I want to go back from the beginning and really get into some of the details just because I know there are a lot of physician moms that are either going through it right now or who have been in the same situation.

And I know that they will be able to relate. So I want to start with A question that may seem kind of silly, were you celibate because of religious reasons or just because you had never dated and just never thought about it?  So, when I was in, I've never actually told the story on, on, on anywhere, actually, but you don't want to tell it. 

Yeah, I think it's helpful. I think it's helpful for people. Um, you know, when I was in, college Right. I lost my virginity in a situation that I wasn't really empowered to lose my virginity. Um, and I subsequently had an incident where, you know, for me, it's hard to speak about, you know, is it, you know, was I taken advantage of, was it, was it rape?

Was it this, you know, as a high, as a College student. You don't know how to explain these situations that happened to you. Um, and so I had a really difficult, um, incident that happened in college, um, where I felt like I was powerless and I couldn't stop something from happening to me. Um, and after I left that incident,  Um, you know, I went home, I called my sister, my sister was deeply religious at the time.

I wasn't really going to church as much and I called her and I told her, you know, what happened. And I remember her chastising me on the phone like, you know, what are you doing? You should have gone, you know, you should need to go to church and you know, all this. And so I had to hang up the phone with her and I got off the phone and you know, It had been a while, but I remember getting on my knees and praying, and asking God to really, um, you know, forgive me for the things I had done and also just also to be with me because I was in a bad place at that moment.

I didn't know how what to do. and, you know, I'm a religious person. So at that moment I wasn't religious, but I felt, uh, you know, still a small voice talking to me and just wrapping, you know, his arms around me. And I felt peace at that moment. And, I knew that I had to change the trajectory of my life.

Otherwise I wouldn't accomplish the things that God wanted me to do. I've always wanted to do medicine. I, I've always known that. I'm supposed to, you know, help people and serve people. And so, but the trajectory I was leading in my first year of college, I knew that I wasn't going to get to that place if I continued in the cycle that I was.

And so I went to church the next day. And, um, from that day on, I really just worked on my relationship with God  Um, I just focused on my purpose and went back to being, you know, uh, going to school. I got my straight A's in college and focused on being a physician. And so I made a, a goal to myself that I wasn't going to play around.

And part of that was, you know, You know, I abstain from alcohol and I also, um, just wanted to save myself for that person. Um, and so I was celibate for, I mean, several years after that, maybe six years and, um, I think that, um, I had a boyfriend before, I had my husband and, you know, we occasionally, you know, had intercourse at that time, but it was a short lived relationship, I would say, my, you know, when I got married, it was a first, uh, real relationship where I was able to have intimacy with somebody, you know, sexual intimacy, and it was consensual, it didn't come with guilt, um, it just felt like a Uh, a safe place.

Yeah.  And I just want to thank you for sharing that because there's somebody else who had this a very similar experience. That experience is way too common and by you sharing it, you may have changed their life just to know that they are not alone and to empower them to talk to somebody else about it.

So thank you very much. I don't think that likely that you felt safe enough here to share that. And.  The way that you were able to deal with that traumatic experience in your own way, I got goosebumps when you said, you know, you heard the voice and very honest. I am not religious. I believe in God. I was raised Christian Catholic.

I have a lot of issues with Christianity as a religion, which is beside the point, but  you know, it is ingrained in me and I literally got goosebumps. So I'm so happy that you had that comfort and that support and you were able to change your life. That is really beautiful.

Yeah. I just, um, I always talk about that cause I've, you know, in my life, I feel like we, we have crossroads, right? We have times Where we have to make decisions and things happen to us and it's like, are you going to take this route or this route? And so I needed that a moment in my life. I needed that, um, still small voice, uh, because I had so much to accomplish in life.

And if I had continued in that path, I would not have been, I would not be here. And so I'm grateful for that experience. Yeah. I'm, I'm grateful that you are here doing what you're doing right now. So,  so when you met your husband, tell me about  some of the things that you think contributed to you missing the things that were of concern.

Yeah,  you know, I think that I would say, Probably some low self esteem. I'll put that out there. Um, and then also it's, you know, I went through all this, these years not wanting to have a boyfriend. I went through all these years focusing on my school. And so now I've graduating residency and, you know, it's not perfect, but there's this guy, um, and he, you know, he's here, you guys have been in a committed relationship and yeah, you, you do carry some weight and you, you know, there's some things that are.

imperfect in how he treats you. However, he's here, he's ready to start a family. You could be married, have children. Um, and so  for me, I think I overlooked it because of what I felt that society wanted me to have, right? You know, you have a lot of pressure. You need to be married. I'm pushing 30. I need to have children.

There's these timelines in our brains that Yeah. Society has placed on us because we have to do these things and, you know, for many of us in medicine, we are focusing on school and getting through the next four years, next four years. And so we don't always prioritize our relationships. And so when it's time, sometimes we do make not the best decisions because we're not You feel the pressure, right?

It doesn't matter what you've accomplished, especially in my background. Doesn't matter what you've accomplished if you're not married. You know, I remember before graduating residency, people caught, you know, sitting me down and talking about, you know, people in my community, a whole bunch of Zambian women sat me down at a table and they're like, we're so proud of you.

We're so happy. You know, are you dating someone? Because if you're not dating anyone, by the time you finish, people are not going to want to date you. Cause if you, once you start making that money, you know, people are going to think you're, however, so. You know, if you don't have anyone you really need to think about getting somebody.

 Who exactly was the pressure from but you answered that so what about your your parents? Were you getting that pressure from them? No, no, I mean I  They come from that community. So I like my mom Um, friends were the ones who sat me down. So my mom didn't say it, but like,  she had like four or five people around me, you know, and didn't say anything.

Right. She was like, they got it. She had nothing to say. And so, um, you know, the pressure's there. My dad, we don't talk about this stuff there. He's just a silent person. So he has nothing to say in terms of that, but my mom, I'm sure she thought about it. It's, it's, it's a big thing, you know, even when I got a divorce, you I think my, my parents lamented and my mom cried like, what are you going to do?

And you know, she cried because in her mind it's like,  what are you? You know, at this point without this individual and you know, you're signing up for, is this going to be really hard? And she supported me with my divorce and everything and she understood why, but I think it was hard for her to see me in that way because that's not how she would envision the life for me.

Yeah, I mean, that's understandable to see a baby. Were you the baby? What? No, I'm the middle child. You're the middle. Okay. Ah, the middle. I'm kidding. The middle child. Listen, it is true what they say.  All right. So it seems like pretty soon after you got married, you got pregnant. Am I calculating that correct?

Um, so I got married in 2016. Um, I did get pregnant, but I lost the first child. I had a miscarriage, a pretty difficult miscarriage. You went through that. And then, um, You know, about a year later, rainbow, complete rainbow baby. Um, same week actually. Um, wow. Yeah, it was complete rainbow baby. I, I had my daughter.

Um, and so she was born in 2018, 2018. Okay. For Your life as a now attending, were you an attending? I was an attending at that point. When you, but when you had the miscarriage, was it one of those times where you were like pushing through working? Like what was the situation? Yes, um, when I had my miscarriage, um, I miscarried on a Friday.

I was at a mattress shop and I started bleeding, um, went to a hospital, they did an ultrasound. Um, there was no fetal activity. Um, they gave me some, uh, I think tramadol and sent me home. Um, and I basically was in pretty severe pain that evening. Um, and started to get kind of like lightheaded. And, you know, I called a friend of mine.

I was like, I'm not bleeding. I'm just like having severe pain. I like this to be over. Do you think you can, you know, write me some meds, some cytotech so that I can like, you know, finish this process quickly and be done. And so she sent over some cytotech. I took cytotech, um, and the, the pain intensified. I had some bleeding, but not complete pain.

And, um, and I'm going in the shower and I passed out a few times. And so, um, passed out, couple times and think it was time to go to the emergency department. So I went to the emergency department, um, I had to get IV morphine cause nothing was helping the pain and stayed, um, in the observation unit where OB saw me, I had to get intravaginal side attack, um, and basically.

Blood and blood had severe pain, um, and after maybe 12 hours, they let me go,  um, I was better. The pain had improved. They gave me, um, narcotics, went home, um, and literally on, when I left the emergency department, my boss said, I'll see you next week because I had a shift next week. Wow. Um, and so Monday I went to work, um, and I went to work in severe pain.

Um, And I was on the shift. I realized, what am I doing? You know, I was like, I can't supervise residents. I can't do this while I'm here. What am I doing? So I remember texting my director and I was like, I am in severe pain. I don't know if I can get through the shift. Now he knew what I'd gone through because I, he knew on Friday.

And so he was like, there's no one on the schedule to cover for you.  And so I was like, okay, so what does that mean? He's like, Try to push through, you know, just try to get through it and you know, but there's no one to cover um, and so You know, now being a medical director, I know when I was a medical director, I realized that if no one can cover, we have to cover.

Right. And so that was my first thought, you know, so I understand he was like, do what you need to do. Cause I cannot do it. Right. Right. Um, and so I was like, okay, you know, uh, I will, you know, try to make it work. And I remember a couple of times I felt like passing out. I went to the back office and I told the residents to present to me, um, to come present to me or, um, you know, to call me on the phone.

Right. And I remember a charged nurse coming to me and like not being the most compassionate at that time, you know, like asking me things and, you know, I was trying to make it through that shift. And so I made it through that shift, but all week I had severe pain. Um, try to call my OB office. Um, there was something with the communication going on with the clinic.

Nobody was returning my messages or phone calls. And so I showed up on a Friday and I was like, listen, I'm having severe pain.  I need someone to help me. , so I just want to be clear at this point, how'd you actually pass the pregnancy?  Not completely. I hadn't, I had not, I had bled a lot that night, I think on Friday.

And so the assumption was that I had, You know, past most of it, but I think I was still going through the process because I left the pain It's just I had morphine. So when I got home, I was still having discomfort. So I hadn't passed everything I was just having bleeding but not  Still having that cramping like you're still miscarrying, you know um And so I knew this on Friday when I went through, when I, I knew, I was like, I need this out.

Um, I'm in severe pain. I'll just rather, I'll take a DNC. You guys just, so I was trying to get with someone. Um, and so no one at the office could talk to me. It was this whole thing. Um, I talk about that episode a lot. I, Try to get a nurse and there's couldn't speak to me a physician couldn't speak to me and finally the secretary I just was in the waiting room and I just started crying.

I cried Boohoo cried the ER doc downstairs cried in the waiting room and the secretary came with came to me She was like, you know, I'm sorry So sorry. She was like let's do this. Go get this blood work that you're supposed to get next week. Cause I think had a repeat hormonal level, and she's like, I'm going to try to speak to my doctor, my personal doctor and see if she can see you.

She went to the back and, um, her doctor was like, Oh, I can, I'm not working, but I'll totally see you and let's do an ultrasound. So she was really compassionate, did an ultrasound on me and she's like, yeah, you still have products. Um, you haven't passed your miscarriage. And she's like, you know, if you're not passing it, I'll take you for a DNC in the morning.

So I went home that night and I remember sitting on the toilet late at night and just everything came out and I instantly felt better. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Wow.  So many, so many  problems with that. And the one that is the most surprising is that even as an attending that you could not  get anybody. Yeah, professional courtesy.

And I wrote about that actually, I wrote the, the chairman of the, the OB department and I told them that and I said, you know, I didn't want to say who I was when I, even when I didn't eventually said who I was, there was no professional courtesy. If someone came to the ER, and you cut your finger at work with the paper, I'd sew you up.

Um, and so that was really disappointing and I thought, you know, if you're treating me this way, how are your patients being treated? Right. Right. How did that change your relationship at work or did it at all?  You know, it changed the relationship with how I manage miscarriages, right? And so, you know, oftentimes I think we're, we don't understand the gravity of The emotions a woman is going through when she's losing a child and we put weight, right?

There's more when someone loses a child at six months That person has way more empathy than the person who's losing a child with you know Before 12 weeks because in our mind, okay one in five people go through this. So, you know  20 percent of women go through this. It's just another, another miscarriage.

And so in the ER we were, we're programmed, right? You have an ultrasound, you have the blood work. We tell you, you know, you've lost your child and we get send you home most times with Tylenol and Motrin, right? And we're not considering that person's level of pain. We're not considering the emotional impact.

And so now, I have in depth conversations with my patients. I, I really want to gather, you know, is this a desired pregnancy? Is it not a desired pregnancy? And if it's a desired pregnancy, you know, then I'm, I'm really sorry for what you're going through.  And we just have to exhibit some compassion. Um, and I will say that in that whole process as a physician, um, there was a lack of compassion in every stage of that process. And so I just, I just treat women differently, um, when it comes to their uterus, it's just,  you know, women go through a lot.  Women go through a lot. 

Yeah. That's a lot.  You went through a lot. And here you are again. Thank you for sharing. And I know this is one that you've probably shared quite a bit, especially on your own platform. , so I, I want to talk about the process between  having gone through that ordeal. Um, and the aftermath is I feel like not a lot of people talk about and then the decision to start trying again. Yeah.  You know, I didn't process that loss. Um, I think that was really hard on me. Um, you know, and so I really wanted a child.

Um, and so I want, I think shortly after I really kind of pushed my husband that we try again, because,  um, I just. It felt like I, I needed to try again. I needed, um, to have a daughter, son, whoever it was going to be. I just needed to go through that. And so, um, we tried again. Um, and I think I was still grieving that loss.

Um, you know, so when I got pregnant, it was probably the most anxiety provoking pregnancy because the entire pregnancy you think you're going to lose the child. And so you get through the 12 weeks, you think you're going to lose your child, you know, everything. And then on top of that, I had a, You're bleeding.

I have some chorionic hemorrhage. Um, and so I bled for 20 weeks. Girl, what is going on? I say, I'm going to write a book one day. I just, I always say it. I'm like, but, um, yeah, no, I bled for 20 weeks. And so, um, that, that, that was pretty anxiety provoking. Cause every time you bleed, you think you're going to lose a child.

Um, and so that was, I dealt with a lot of anxiety during pregnancy. Um, Um, you know, and then after pregnancy had a pretty traumatic birth and then had pretty traumatic postpartum. Okay, hold on. Hold on. I want to take it. I want to take it one step at a time because I have very, I have a lot of questions on one comment.

You said that you pushed your husband. Is it that he was not ready? He never really wanted a child. I'm gonna be honest with you. He wanted to wait. He wanted to wait He wanted to wait. We talked before we got married. He was all about, you know, we'll have kids we'll have kids But we never really talked about timeline.

And so when we got married, you know, he wanted to wait a year so we waited a year and And then when we finally decided to try then I miscarried  and so he wanted to wait additional time and you know, I kind of convinced him to try again. Um, and so I don't really, it was not something he really, um, was excited to pursue. 

Yeah. And do you think it was dishonesty or that he didn't want to admit how he's really feeling? What, what was it? I don't think he wanted to admit how he's feeling. I think also for African men, there's also the pressure to have children too, right? You know, to get, to be settled, right? And so you may not get somebody who says, I don't want kids.

I mean, society will look at you like you're crazy, right? Right. Um, and so I think for him also, he had his own pressures, right? You know, to have children, to have a family, to look stable. Um, and so I, you know, in retrospect, I think he just didn't want children. Yeah. Okay. And I just want to make a comment about the anxiety., one of the biggest risk factors for anxiety during pregnancy is a previous miscarriage.  So it is one of those things where take your time to grieve, get plugged in with your therapist. There's nothing deficient in you if you are experiencing these feelings.

This is the biggest risk factor for having anxiety in a, in a subsequent pregnancy, especially if you did not take the time to grieve.  You know, your story just matches that. And I don't know, did you have any type of support during the pregnancy for your mental health? No, I think I didn't even really think I was depressed or anxious.

I think you just think  I'm only able to speak about this now. You know, you just think these are normal feelings and the normal things that you have to go through. I didn't really even think to seek out a resource. I'd never seen a therapist even until later on in life. So I didn't know any of this.  Yeah.

So tell me about the birth.  Um, the birth was, you know, I was 41 and, 41 and 6. No, 40 and four. No, 40 and six. Ooh. No, 41.  I was 40 and six.  Um, and I was done being pregnant and I was having preterm contractions that were really painful, but I knew it wasn't labor. I was done. And I was supposed to be, um, be waiting for a phone call for induction anyway.

And so. So I called the on call line. I was like, I think I'm in labor. And they're like, well, how far apart are your contractions? I don't know. I'm not, I'm in labor.  That sounds familiar. You know, they're like, okay, come on in. I went in and they're like, ma'am, you're not in labor. And I was like, I'm not going home. 

You're one of those. I am. I am. I am. I said, I'm not going home. So they're like, well, you know, lucky for you, your doctor comes in in the morning. So we'll just keep you in the morning and see what he wants to do. Cause you'll be 40, 41 weeks in the morning anyway. So the morning I well played. Yes. 

So in the morning I saw the Pitocin hanging. I said, yeah, it's okay. Was like, let's get this going.  Um, so yeah, I labored for about eight hours. Um, it was fully dilated. It was pretty, you know, the, the Pitocin was, you know, it was painful. I ended up having an epidural and then after eight hours I was ready to push. Now the doctor came in, he gave me a, You know, a little pushing lesson.

He was like in first time moms, they're going to push for a while. And, you know, so this is how you do it. And so he's like, okay, so I'm going to step out and you, the nurses, you're going to do this with the nurse. And I did it. I think it was like after two or three pushes, the nurse was like, wait, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

Let me find the doctor. You got to find the doctor. And they're like overhead paging him, but he was delivering elsewhere. He was like in another room and like, yeah, yeah. So. They're like, okay, the doctor's like, you know, busy, you just got to hang out here for a little bit. And it, that was a forever, I think it was like 15 minutes of her sitting in my canal.

Yes. It was forever. Um, and so when he finally came in and push baby came out, he did a lot of suctioning. She was real dusky. Um, and I thought, Oh, she's really, you know, dark skin does, you know, she's like, she's going to be like me, you know, cause you, you don't know how your kid's going to turn out. And I was like, this interesting color.

Skin color she has,  you know, so she was dusky and he put her on me and she didn't really do much. Um, and then I was like, something, you know, she's not really doing much. And so after a while he's like, okay, um, he kind of kind of backed away out of the room.  And then I saw lots of people coming in and, and, um, then they're like, we just need to get the baby cleaned up.

It was like five people and you know, um, I don't know if I heard something out overhead, but I pretty much knew that it was about to be some type of a resuscitation. And so, um, they took my daughter and they were all kind of around her and a lot was happening. I'm paralyzed. My husband's very confused.

There's no one's going on. I'm paralyzed. So, I called a physician friend of mine actually, and um, I told her she needed to be there. And she was already just checking on me anyway. And so she was like there within like minutes, I don't know how she was able to get there so fast. Honestly, she's probably hovering as a, as a friend of many people, she was probably hovering already.

And didn't want to say anything. Yes. I don't know how she got there so fast. It was all a blur, you know, your birth, but she got there so fast. Um, and she was able to relay what was happening. And she was like, you know, baby's oxygen is low. They can't get the oxygen levels up. And she was really advocating for me at that moment.

She did a lot of advocating for me. And, um, they finally had to take baby away to, um, the NICU. And she kind of was like, the oxygen you're giving is not working. I think she needs CPAP. Where's the ICU doc? Where's a physician? Right, right. So eventually they got the ICU physician. They put the baby on um, CPAP, and she was in the ICU for a couple days.

And, um, she basically had a, um, amniotic fluid aspiration, aspirated, amniotic fluid. Um, and so that was really a hard entrance into, um, yeah. Postpartum.  Yeah. Wow. And you know, that's so interesting that you say your friend came. It makes me think of two things. What are regular people experiencing? And also, I'm so like, I'm usually the person at the perineum being like, can y'all tell mom what's going on? Can you tell dad what's going on? Like, tell them what's going on because it is very easy to just, yes, you focus on the baby and I focus. Yes. It translates to everything that I am doing now is like this person just pushed out a baby.

This baby just left her body. Tell her something. Turn around and be like, yeah, we're working. Say something. Yeah, no one said anything. My OB actually. Well, left actually, I think he left to go deliver another baby. . I literally, there was no one, there was actually no one by my bedside with my, my husband.

There was no one, everybody was over baby.  And so, yeah, my friend was that person going back and forth. Baby's okay. They just put baby on the monitor. Um, you know, baby's now, you know, resting in the ICU, baby, like she was literally, you know, kept speaking to me and talking to me. We have, we have a lot of work to do, man.

All right. So tell me mentally, what was the trajectory of your postpartum? Like what else was going on? Yeah.  You know, I think dealing with a sick baby in the ICU, um, my, I couldn't, you know, breastfeed. You're worried about your baby's breastfeeding journey. Um, I actually didn't, um, make milk for three weeks and I was behind on, on breastfeeding.

And so I did not sleep. I obsessed over pumping to try to get my breasts working. I would visit my child. And so I think I probably was a little delirious, right? You know, I had wouldn't sleep more than an hour, probably slept a couple of minutes. Um, didn't make any milk had the trauma of my daughter being in the ICU.

Um, and really just, Just feeling alone and like, man, there's a lot of challenges that, you know, we have to overcome. Um, and so that hospital stay was pretty hard. And when they finally sent us home, I think that was a, uh, Um, scary moment because they're sending you this child, like go forth. And so that was just in the NICU,  just the NICU go forth.

And they sent me home with a kid, a child who was breathing very hard. And so because they, you know, that she, her respiratory was high cause she had fluid in her lungs. So they were like, it's going to get better. And so got home. I never slept at home. I stared at her breathing. Um, I pumped. If I wasn't staring at her breathing, I pumped continuously.

Um, I did not stop.  I did not stop stressing. Um, I cried a lot. Um, you know, and then my husband did not how to deal with it at all. He was not equipped. And so he advocated, we bring his mom. His mom came, his mom was actually not a good idea. Um, because, Unfortunately, she did feel that my breasts were defective because, you know, medical  knowledge is like, drink this, eat this, like, you know, I could feed the whole, you know, I could feed the entire village where I'm from, you know, and so it didn't actually help me.

I just, I just want to stop there for a second and talk about the warm body phenomenon. The people that you bring into your space at this very tender time, even if you didn't have a traumatic experience, it matters.  Make sure they are helpful and they are there for you, not just the baby.  Because listen, I don't care how many people in the village you fed. 

Right.  Right? With your breast milk. That's not helping me. Wow. Okay. So how long did that last?  Well, she was here for six months and wow yeah, she was there with me for six months and then I had to care for her because she had her health problems and You know, it's just like caring about everybody else in the home.

Right, you know, it was I think I had a, I always tell people the story, the thing that saved me was I think my neighbor saw me looking despondent all the time. I think she came over to visit once and I think she realized that this is, you know, pumping supplies everywhere. I had a, you know, SNS.  struggling, probably barely even took a bath, you know, and she would come a lot to check on me and you know, bring me stuff and she would talk about things and you know, one of the interventions she did was she told me to get a lactation consultant to my home and um, and I had never even really thought about that.

I saw the one at the hospital and when she came, The one to the home. She did a full assessment and saw that my, I had glandular hypoplasia and my glands, I was never going to pump enough to feed my child. And so she, she gave me permission. She says, I give you permission to stop pumping. You are wasting precious moments that you could be spending with your child, where your child hold your child.

Cause you know, my child's over there and I'm pumping and I'm using these contraptions, you know, she's like, it's, it's, don't do this to yourself. And so that was the, the first freeing part of my journey. Yeah. I was number one. Um, and then also my neighbor would come and talk about her journey with therapy.

She was very open about therapy and you know, she had been in therapy for however many years and all that talk about therapy. I was like, maybe I need a therapist cause I'm Sinking your neighbor was skillful, man, because she didn't just come and say, you need therapy. Yes, that. And that's what you're supposed to do with people who are in a dark place.

You talk about your experience. You talk about the benefits sideways. Like it's not the time to be like, Hey, I mean, some people need that. We're like, Hey, girl,  come on someone, please. But I love that.  Right. I love that you had that. I love that. Yeah, she was amazing. And I ended up getting a therapist who I didn't even realize I need a therapy like my whole life.

I should have therapy, you know? So we process so much, we processed my marriage, we processed, you know, so many things. And it was very, uh, I am forever grateful for my therapist because I would not have been lifted from that dark place. I would not have been able to see clearly, you know, um, be able to make proper decisions.

And my therapist was also that way. She didn't tell me what to do. You know, she just, Um, put me in the way to be able to prioritize my mental health, my physical needs, my emotional needs. Um, and to advocate for that in the, with the people around me as well. And so, um, she was amazing and I started my journey to healing because I was in a very dark place, dark thoughts.

And I don't think that,  I don't know how it would have made it out, um, if I did not have therapy. Yeah.  Yeah, there are so many things there. And when you said the lactation consultant gave you permission, I got chills again from top to bottom, because first of all, that is  a lactation consultant.

That isn't like, no, just keep going. This is the best thing for the baby. Like it could have gone a different way, but that needing permission and Just the relief of somebody else telling you that it is okay, that it is okay to stop can sometimes be life saving and I often talk so much about how breastfeeding and particularly pumping can be the trigger for a lot of Postpartum mental health issues and back in the day when I used to do tick tock, like patient education, I got a lot, a lot of flack for saying that and for even suggesting that breastfeeding was anything more than the beautiful thing that protected you from depression.

And I don't know if it's because we're physicians and we're more type a high strong. I don't know what it is.  But I'm like, I'm very passionate about just normalizing the fact that breastfeeding can sometimes break you, whether you, you can do it because I could like, I made lots of milk,  but it was still the thing that almost broke me or you can't, you know, so just, you know, Giving yourself permission to stop and at the end of the day, it's what you said, you giving yourself permission to put yourself first, because if you were doing that, then you wouldn't be. 

Over here, pumping. I don't know what you're trying to do. Triple feeds or whatever. I don't know all these extra things. I just want to get my formula. I was like, she does not have formula, you know, whatever. Oh, that's another thing.  Listen, I had formula and I am perfect.  Let me tell you.  Me too. My mom tells me, my mom's like, I, my mom's like, she stopped breastfeeding after three months because she couldn't make enough milk.

Oh, that's long. You know, right. But I didn't even get three months. I don't think I got three days. Oh my gosh. So, wow. That is a journey. That is a journey. So when you came out of it, or how long did it take you? Let's start there. I would say a year to start to feel a semblance of normalcy. A year. Wow. 

Okay. And then after that, you had other pregnancies, right? Yeah, I suffered, um, one loss and I, I'll share this for your audience, um, because I think this is another one of those moments in my life that I had to make decisions, right? And, um, Um, I think that,  you know, I got through that, uh, that my, my daughter, that pregnancy and then, you know, thinking about having a second child, um, which also was, you know, multiple conversations in the house, right?

Yeah. About having one and, um, and you know, I think my husband wanted to wait and there's a lot of, we were having a lot of problems with our marriage. Um, so a lot of things, a lot of infidelity, there was a lot going on. And so, um, It wasn't the place to have a child, right? And I, I know God was like, it's not the time to have a child, but we had an oopsie, right?

We had, uh, you know, things happen and, um, I got pregnant and that one was not planned. and I sensed so much depression from my husband and anger as a result of being pregnant.  And, you know, I love kids. I want multiple kids. Um, that was my vision. You know, pick a white fence, have many kids and live happily ever after.

Right. Um, that may not have been his vision of life. And so I think that was that crossroads was like, wow, we, I think are just on different pages because I'm celebrating and he's not celebrating. And so, you know, he  probably didn't speak to me for about six weeks. It was like, it was a very tense home environment. 

It was a long time. Um, and then, you know, maybe it was three, but three weeks he didn't speak. Um, we'd kind of roll over. It was little, it was just anger. And then he took a trip abroad for three weeks to go process everything. So there was a lot of  pain that I experienced in that timeframe. And then it was during COVID.

And then I, you know, when he returned, I had to go for my, my confirmation ultrasound and I was alone. I didn't have anyone cause you can't go with anyone then. And so it was alone in a room and, um, the doctor came in and did the ultrasound, um, and there was no heartbeat again.  And, um, you know, Um, that was the terrible moment cause nobody's touching each other, right?

No one's giving hugs, no one's doing handshakes  and you are in a room by yourself.  And so that was hard. And so I went through that, I went in my car after everything ended and I was in my car and  I was like, man,  this sucks. Right? Um, But you know what?  I feel like, it sounds really bad, I'm like, I feel like  this is not the right time,  and I don't think this is the right person. 

Yeah. And I think it's hard to say that out loud. Um, and, And I was like, I'm gonna take the time to process. I'm gonna pray about it. You know, I'm not gonna make any decisions. Like just, but I have a feeling. I said, let me go home and tell him. I went home and I told him that I had a loss, and the response I got was really confirmation when I needed, it wasn't sadness, it was, oh, well, you know, you've been through this before.

It's just not meant to be. It was almost like joy inside of him. Yeah. Joy inside. And so, um, and at that time I didn't want to go through miscarrying a child. And so I, I scheduled, I called my OB, I said, I want a DNC. I don't want to do this. And so I went to the DNC, he dropped me off cause again, you can't have visitors.

So he's sitting in the waiting room by yourself,  you know, and you're waiting to have this procedure and when you're, after you wake up, you're by yourself, you know, and, um, and then I.  And I went home  and, um,  I tried to see if I could salvage my marriage, but I knew it was over. Yeah. Went through therapy. He was not interested in therapy.

And, um, you know, waited however many months. And then at some point after just suffering in the home and realizing that This is not something I want. I want more for my life. I want children. I want, um, I want more. Um, I made the decision, which decision that no one in my family has ever made. Nobody in my family has ever gotten a divorce.

No one in his family has ever gotten a divorce. Um, and I filed for divorce and when I handed those papers over, um, when I tell you,  the weight that was lifted off of my shoulder. I know people may people have different feelings when they get a divorce. Um, I was, I felt liberated. It felt like it was the right decision and I still feel like it was the right decision.

He would have never been able to tell me what he needed and I would not have, I would have gone on with my needs in the back. Our vision for the future was completely different. Our vision was completely different. I want someone to celebrate with me when I have children.  You know, and so, um, that last miscarriage was bittersweet because, um, I think if I had had a second child, I would have probably not wanted to leave the marriage and he would have probably not been happy. 

Yeah. And I think that is so important. This concept of the vision has to be the same.  You need to vision with your partner, and preferably before you have kids,  because there's so many things, so many issues, even my husband and I have had, because  it was not clear where we were going. You don't know what you don't know about being a parent, about who you will be after you become parents, you need to vision, you need to talk, you need to forget what society is telling you is expected of you.  And trust yourself. and believe your gut because we are all physicians. We are female physicians. We are intuitive. We are highly skilled. It's amazing. We make decisions at work all the time to save lives.

But then when it gets to the home and motherhood and in a relationship, it's like second guessing.  I don't, why am I second guessing myself? I have excellent judgment everywhere else.  Um, and I feel like it's the same for many other people. Um,  Absolutely. I, I think we are, we're so, because of that, the profession that we're in, we are constantly serving others and we are constantly thinking about someone else.

And it, it is hard for us to stop and think about.  Our needs, right? And so, um, when you get with a partner, I think you have to also be able to express those needs to your partner, right? You need that safe space and you both need to have these conversations, um, and be free doing that. It's just something you have to learn before you enter a committed relationship because you always, you guys are individuals before you're together. And so you, you, you have individual goals, you have individual dreams and you're coming together and you have to have a vision for your lives and where both of your needs are met.

Otherwise it's just not going to work. Yeah. I agree 100 percent and I can't say this enough. Thank you so much for sharing your story and being so generous with some very tender and intimate moments of your life. I know it's going to help another physician mom or somebody who is planning on pregnancy.

So I really appreciate everything that you've shared today. Absolutely. Absolutely. It's, we, we get comfort in, in sharing our stories because, you know, people suffer alone. Um, and so I'm a big proponent, it's just, no one's ever really asked, so I've never really shared this information. So yeah, but it feels good talking about it because, um, guaranteed someone is struggling.

Um, and especially as physicians, um, I'm sure, um, somebody is going through what I went through. Yeah. It's funny you say that. I, I tell people when I schedule a podcast, I'm like, I go deep, so be prepared. Anyway, I want to, um, let everyone know more about you on the professional side, you know, what you have going on and how they can find you if they want to follow with you, because I hope I'm not wrong in saying all of your experiences have really shaped what you're doing now professionally.

So I think it is all significant. So please share. Absolutely. Um, so I practice in Atlanta, Georgia. Um, I'm a concierge physician for postpartum moms. And so I want postpartum moms to not feel alone. I want postpartum moms to not go into severe depression and not have the resources. And so I provide a village for them.

I link them to resources, lactation consultants, pelvic floor therapist. I just want to shield moms so moms can thrive. And so I built EM care to you. Um, it's. That's the name of the business. Um, you can find me on Instagram, online, emcare2. com. Um, and I also have a podcast. um, Fourth Trimester Voices. And I share stories of moms and birth workers, and we just try to encourage other postpartum moms and share our stories so other postpartum moms can know where to get the help, where to get the resources.

Um, but yeah, that that's mostly what I do. You can find me Dr. Choa online, Instagram, Facebook, all of that.  I love it. I love it. And it's. So much more impactful when the mission comes from the personal experience. And I am very excited for your business and for the care that these women are going to receive because you're already an excellent physician, but you've also had these experiences and can relate to them on a deeper level.

So thank you. You're welcome. Thank you so much. Thank you. This was great. All right I will see you on the next episode of stethoscopes and strollers. Take care. Bye