60. Trust Yourself, Doc: Dr. Erica Bove on Intuition, Motherhood, and Career Evolution

Hey doc! In this episode of ✨Stethoscopes and Strollers✨, I'm having a vulnerable conversation with Dr. Erica Bove, a Reproductive Endocrinology and Infertility Specialist and fertility coach who shares her powerful journey through motherhood during medical training, unexpected divorce, and rebuilding her life and career.

Dr. Erica opens up about:

• Having her first child during residency and navigating early motherhood with limited support
• Experiencing a dramatic birth during Hurricane Sandy and a challenging unmedicated delivery with her second child
• Discovering her husband's affair with their nanny and rebuilding her life as a single mom
• Finding her path to fertility coaching after realizing clinical medicine wasn't serving her family

Key takeaways:

• The critical importance of trusting your intuition, even when it's telling you something you don't want to hear
• How finding the right support system can transform your experience as a Physician mom
• The power of boundaries and self-advocacy, especially during life's hardest moments
• Learning to rebuild your identity after divorce or other major life transitions

Dr. Erica shares why she created Love and Science Fertility, a coaching practice specifically for female physicians navigating fertility journeys, including those experiencing secondary infertility.

Remember, doc, your intuition is a powerful tool - both in medicine and in life. Trust yourself.

Erica Bove, MD, is the mother of two boys who are 12 and 10. At times, she prefers to be called "Mama Bear." She is a double board certified OB-GYN and Reproductive Endocrinologist (REI) physician at the University of Vermont, as well as a certified life coach through The Life Coach School. She is also the founder of Love and Science: Thriving Through Infertility. She has a keen interest in marrying an evidence-based approach with intuitive knowing in the context of a trusting relationship. She empowers physician women to build their families with confidence, compassion and community. Her mission is to heal and support the healers and to create a legacy she is proud of.

For more information about Dr. Erica Bove, you can visit her website and connect with her on Facebook, follow on Instagram, and listen to the

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Transcript

 Hey doc. I am back with another wonderful guest.

I am joined by my friend and my colleague, Dr. Erica Bove. She is a double board certified OBGYN and REI, and she's also a fertility coach and she is a mom just like you. So I want to welcome you, Dr. Erica. Thank you for joining me on Stethoscopes and Strollers. Please introduce yourself a little bit more and tell our listeners how old your kids are and how many you have.

Absolutely. Thank you, Dr. LaToya. I'm so glad to be here, and I just, just want to say I so appreciate your friendship. I, I know we're colleagues and all those things, but you're such a good human, and the world is a better place because of you.  So yes, like you said, I have done the training. I'm a board certified OBGYN, and I also did a three year fellowship in what's called reproductive endocrinology and infertility, so I help people get pregnant.

but I will say, like, as I was  momming and as I was also starting to see my own patients in practice, I just really noticed how women were not getting what they needed in the clinical setting, and it made me very sad and angry. And so when I started sort of consuming coaching for myself and my own purposes, parenting coaching, relationship coaching, I thought to myself, you know what, like, I think these are actually the skills that my patients need when they're on their fertility journey.

So I decided to become a coach myself, and that's what I do now. I founded Love and Science Fertility, which is a coaching practice for female professionals with infertility. And I have two children. I mean, that's, that's the love of my life, is being a mom. And I have two boys, they are 12 and 10. And one of them I had during my residency, and one of them I had during my fellowship.

And 

okay. I didn't know they were training babies. So let's get into it. So tell me, was it your plan to have babies during training or was it just like, I just need to get these babies out of the way? What, what was the situation? 

Well, so I met my former spouse, uh, when I was a medical student and I've always wanted to be a mom.

Like I just am wired. I knew that's what I wanted to do, and I think, you know, being an OB GYN.  Um, one that was also interested in infertility, I was very afraid that I would have infertility myself. And so, I think that probably played into some of my decisions, um, I actually had a miscarriage my second year of residency and that was very sad, and it just sort of further clarified that I really wanted to be a mom.

And so I remember I was a third year resident, I had, I was on the infertility service and, like, we just decided trying and, um, we started to try. And I remember, like, it was actually our wedding anniversary and we were about to go out to dinner and I just knew I was pregnant. And I took a test and it was positive.

We went out to dinner and that's little Lincoln, who is, who is 12.

I, I'm grateful to my residency because it really did give me good training. It put me in a position to do the research I needed to match an REI. but I will say there was a baby born about every year and a half, which is not very often if you think about it.

And I would actually call it a very toxic environment. So I remember, like, I was pregnant, people would forget I was pregnant. And, like, I was like, As an OBGYN, how do you not remember that somebody you care about is pregnant? Like, it was just bizarre. And then, I remember once I was breastfeeding, like, Some of the people, some of the other doctors even said, like, Oh, your baby must eat really well with the amount that you're pumping.

Like, with the amount, with the frequency at which you're pumping. And I was like, Hello, I'm pumping every four to six hours. Like this is barely enough. Like, but I just, I received a lot of criticism. However, I will say the minute that I knew that Lincoln existed  inside of me, it was a happy thing. So I just was so happy as a pregnant person.

I would like talk to him. I went on my, all my fellowship interviews pregnant. I had a pregnancy suit. Um, I like would like write to him in my journal. I knew that once I had him, which was October of my chief year, that I would be able to. like come home to a baby.  It was such a happy thing in such a stressed situation that I would do it again.

I mean, I got five weeks off, interestingly, and I'd love to explore this. I went into labor the exact day for both children to maximize my maternity leave, which was five weeks and six weeks. Like, that is so weird. Like the exact day to maximize the time I went into labor, which, you know, Again, like if we could, you know, figure out labor, wouldn't that be amazing?

But, um, but I got five weeks. I was about to say, 

what do you mean? 

Did you, did you plan 

that? 

I have no idea. I have no idea. I don't know if I will have to have, I'm not sure, but, um, it worked out that way with both children. Um, so five weeks and six weeks. Um, and I do not feel like that was enough time at all.

Yeah. I mean, there's no need to explain that it was not enough time. You just kind of had to push through because you had to push through. So you, when you say you were at the end of your chief year, is it that, what, how much, what month? 

It was October of my chief year. So I, Lincoln was like seven months when I, when we moved.

Yeah. 

To 

Michigan. 

I see. I see. I see. Okay. So you did have to move with the baby. Oh, dear. Okay. Well, before we get there. So how was it now having this little baby, even though you were a chief? That's kind of nice. What was the experience having to juggle being a resident and having this little baby at home?

Yeah, I mean, it was really hard. I don't think I quite estimated how much child care I would need. you know, I had one of our outgoing attendings, she was, she left and went to a different institution. She's like, I have a great person. So thankfully I had somebody who was vetted. Um, and interestingly, she and her friend,  And she's like, the only caveat is that her due date is like a month earlier than yours and, you know, a month earlier.

And I was like, okay, well, how's that going to be like with this person having a one month old? You know, we got to talk about these things, but my attending was like, she's fantastic. And so we hired her and we talked about everything. She was amazing. Um, we still keep in touch. But she really only could do 60 hours a week, and I, I can't even believe I'm saying those words together.

She only could do 60 hours a week, but compared to what I needed, I will say where I was for residency, the chiefs really ran the service. They ran on call, I mean, you know, oncology, they ran labor and delivery, the ER, all those things, and so even when I was like on GYN, I remember being like, I need coverage from like 6 a.

m. until 10 p. m. Like, and that's not even call. You know, and so, and I really can't ask the, the nanny to do all that. She was coming from, I think, Brooklyn. And so, thankfully, my mother, who had five babies herself, she lived in Vermont, I was in New York City, and so she would like, we would have the nanny work like Monday through Thursday, and then my mom would take like Friday through Sunday if I was on call.

And then that sort of patched it together. Thank, thank God. I mean, she was amazing. But I will say, you know, it was incredibly stressful. And the thing I didn't appreciate till the baby came was that you're never off. Like, you know, you're, you're on at your job. And then the overnight feedings and the diaper changes and all those things.

Like, I was like, wow. Like, there's just, there was never a down moment. As much as I appreciated being a mom and my baby. Like, it was very busy and I would say very stressful. 

Yeah. what kind of support did you get from your ex husband?  

You know, so I will now say, I mean, it was an abusive relationship, unfortunately.

And  there were some things that came out before our baby was born. But I really do think that some of that really started to show. when there was so much additional work and shift of focus. And so I've done a lot of therapy to, you know, work through my own feelings about that and coaching as well. I do think, you know, he was a fourth year medical student at the time.

So we did have more time than, say, other people might, but I don't know. I mean, when I look back at it, like Mother's Day, my first Mother's Day, I was at a board's review course,  I don't know. I, I felt like the milk lady, like I remember at first trying to breastfeed and yeah, I could just never sync up my schedule with his as, as hard as I tried.

And so I'm like, well, I guess I'm just gonna pump four times a day and then drop off the milk and, uh, and, and let's do it that way. So, I don't know. It was a, it was a crazy time. And then, you know, we moved to Michigan and  we always wanted a second kid. You know, I was breastfeeding, I was a fellow. He was a resident.

And then. Our second son was actually a surprise. Like I, and I was so grateful for him, but we did have like two kids under two as well, and that was, that was its own challenge. Right. So, yeah. 

So y'all matched, like, on purpose in the same place or that just happened? No, no, it was very, very 

conscious. Yeah, there was no couples match for us. 

We'd spend an entire Saturday just, like, making columns of cities and programs. And it was, you know, I will say, through everything that we've gone through, I do think we've worked well as a team in general. Like, we've been able to harness that. Because it is really, you know, like, unusual what we were able to do.

Yeah. Okay. I just realized I didn't really ask, how was your actual birth experience? Interesting that you ask. 

Yeah. So say more.  Yeah. So  I will say I delivered my older son during a hurricane.  

Hurricane Sandy. Wow. Say much more. 

Yeah. So, and that really affected New York city. And so what I remember was like, I went into labor, like I delivered like just shy of midnight, um, on a Saturday night and the hurricane was coming.

And, you know, thankfully it was like a pretty uncomplicated delivery. It, you know, I needed a little ephedrine at one point because my blood pressure dropped, like, that's okay. Um, but like all of my co residents were in the hospital because they were all like on lockdown for this hurricane. And so like when it was board turn, they ordered me food.

They had signs, they had balloons. They all visited me postpartum because they were all in the hospital. Um, so that was like, I mean, that was totally crazy. And I, they just took such good care of me. Like, I just, I don't know, I just really have such fond memories of that. my, I had an OBGYN, the same woman who helped me with the miscarriage, Dr.

DeMarco, and she was so great during both of those experiences. Like she had told me, and I know not everybody gets this. It's, it's really kind of not that usual these days, but she was like, I'll do everything in my power to deliver you. So.  She had told me during the miscarriage, it's not your fault. Those are the words I needed to hear at that time.

And I carry those words forward now and I take care of people. You know, it's not your fault. There's nothing you did to cause this. And I remember she came in from a holiday party or not a holiday party, a Halloween party, and she came into the delivery room with like two giant bags of clothes, like two giant, like shopping bags, like  Dr.

Latoya, we're talking like even like 12 to 18 months stuff. She's like, I just got so excited. I was going to deliver a baby. And I just couldn't help myself. And she did. She delivered my baby and, you know,  and my mom was there like, um, my mom, you know, she said she wanted to be there. It was like the first grandkid, although she has been there for all the grandkids now, which is amazing.

Um, but she was like driving to one city and in a different car from the rest of my family because she thought I might go into labor. So she like totally turned around and came. To New York City and was there for the delivery as well. So it was me, it was my then husband, my mother, um, and I will say it was uncomplicated.

Like, it was a beautiful experience, but then we were rushed out of the hospital because of the hurricane. There was like, no gas, there were food shortages, like we had to go to the pediatrician. We had to walk to the pediatrician in New York City because for the checkup. Um, we had to get Lincoln's blood drawn because he, they thought he had jaundice, and then the lab, like, lost the blood, and then we had, like, it was like, like, so the delivery itself was fine, but then, like, you know, and then, like, he wasn't, he wasn't peeing immediately after he had, like, the circumcision, and I'm like, go, go, go.

And so the NICU fellow who I worked with, because I was on L& D all the time, like, I called him. He was like, if there's any issues, like, call me. And I was like, are you sure? He's like, yeah. So he hadn't, Lincoln hadn't peed for like 10 hours and I called him and he was running up and down the stairs at NYU, like, because all their power was failing and the hurricane had actually come and I'm like, I am so sorry to bother you, but like my kid is like not peeing.

And of course he told me something simple. He's like, just like release the gauze. And then of course it was like waterworks, you know, but it was like, I do remember that like initial time postpartum was like very stressful. but then once we kind of like got into a groove, my mom staged, she made food.

eventually I figured out breastfeeding, uh, but then it felt like it was just like over in the blink of an eye and then I was back at work again, you know? 

 Yeah. Wow. That wasn't interesting. Yeah. I wasn't expecting that. Yeah. Okay. And, uh, so you have that baby and then you all moved and surprise, you're pregnant.

what was going through your mind at that point when you had the surprise? Um, 

Well, I will tell you, I was in the operating room, uh, in between cases and, and maybe this is TMI for your listeners, but it's fine. You can edit out later if it's not okay. No, no such thing. But I was, I was in the bathroom and I was like, I think I have a yeast infection.

And then like two seconds later, I was like, Oh, I'm pregnant again.  And I will tell you, I was, I, I, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know. You know me by now, though. Like, these things just happen to me. So I was like, I was like, yeast infection, definitely pregnant. And so I just knew. And I was so happy.  And so then I went home and took a test.

Of course, it was positive. And, like, from the moment that little Alton was conceived and I knew about him, I've just loved him ever since. Just like Lincoln. So, I, you know, had an uncomplicated pregnancy. For the most part, you know, we can sort of, there was like a scare at the anatomy ultrasound that something was really wrong.

But, um, Um, we navigated that and the delivery,  the scare was that there was, um, epigenic bowel. And so they were like, your kid either has like down syndrome or cystic fibrosis or, like cytomegalovirus, which is that, you know, y'all, you're listening to a doctor should they know. Something else 

terrible.

Um, or 

like, or, or like a bowel malrotation where a home lead like emergency surgery after birth. And I was like, Oh my gosh, those things all sound terrible. 

Um, 

so. You know, so we navigated that. Well, the thing was that I had actually been exposed to an egg donor who was positive for CMV in my first trimester.

Like we found out after the fact that she had active CMV, so that was like the most likely thing. So I was like getting monitored and titers and all that stuff. It was like a little bit like waiting to exhale, you know, cause I was like, I thought something might really be wrong, but it was just kind of an exercise in faith.

Cause like, what can you do, but wait and see and hope for the best. And, um, and then he came out and he was perfect. He was perfectly healthy and. But that delivery was a shitshow, total shitshow. 

Tell me more. 

Okay, well, I mean, I think it's one thing to deliver where you're a resident and everybody, like, knows you and many people like you and love you, maybe not everybody.

Um, but I will say, like, as a fellow, because I was at Michigan, You know, I was on labor and delivery, but I like never really was there because that's not what we did. And 

yeah, 

I, the night, the night that I happened to go into labor, um, I remember I went in and like that same thing happened with my blood pressure.

And I was like, I think I just need like a little bit of a Fedrin come to find out. I have all these like redundant things and all this stuff. So they're like, Oh no, we're so sorry. We're not, we're not OB anesthesia and we, um, there's a gap in coverage. And so we don't really know, we can do your epidural, but like, you know, We don't really know what else to do.

And I was like, um, I said, I'm really, I said, I'm really not that person, but like, I think if you just gave me like a little Fedrin, like my blood pressure will come up and like, I'll be fine. And they're like, and I'm like, again, like, that's like such a little thing to do, but, but they were like, no, no, we're not comfortable.

So we're going to turn off your epidural. 

And I was like, hold on, hold on, hold on. So who was saying this? The anesthesiologist?  

Fucking Doug. His name is Doug. What? Because I him closely in the REI suite, he was like one of the seven doctors who did our like, you know, anesthesia for the retrieval.

So I knew this guy extremely well after like doing hundreds of cases with him. So, but then he got an adjective in front of his name because he basically gave me a And that's it. You know, epidural free delivery. Um, so, so that, that was kind of weird. So I was like, okay, so you, I mean, you know, like I'm, I'm a multiple, like, you know, it's going to go kind of fast, but I was GBS positive.

So they're like kind of waiting on some things. And I waited until I was like actually in labor. I was like, not going to be like, you know, like I was like, I'm going to go in when I'm in labor, like fine, whatever. So I went in and I was in active labor and I got the epidural. They're like, sorry, we got to turn it off.

Um, we don't really feel like we can replace it, but we also don't think we can turn it on because your blood pressure's gonna drop, the tracing's gonna, and I, and I was like, there's a simple solution to this, like, just give me a little ephedrine. They're like, they're like, okay, uh, no, we can't do that. So I was like, okay.

So then, like, I progressed a little bit more, and it had been like four hours since I got the penicillin for the GBS positive stuff, and they're like, now we're gonna AROM you. And I was like, wait a sec, wait, wait, wait. Like my, the only thing in my birth plan is like epidural, please. Like healthy mom, healthy baby epidural, please.

Like that's all I care about. And my mom was also there, by the way. She had come from Vermont to Michigan to be there for the delivery, and my former spouse was there as well. Um, and so, God bless the residents, because they were amazing. Um, I had this, like, researcher who really didn't like OB, who just had to take calls sometimes, who was on call as my attending, and I had F ing Doug, who, like, didn't know what he was doing with the anesthesia piece of things,  and I had a non functioning epidural, and they were like, we want our AROMU. 

So I was like, well, you know, if this happens, like, I'm gonna like go quickly and I'm gonna have an unmedicated delivery. They're like, Oh no, no, you'll be fine.  So, I think you know how the story ends, like, I, um, What is going on? I know, right? I know, this is like the not Bordwell. All their, all their like slogans say the best and like, this does not feel like the best and the brightest.

So, they AR on me, and of course I'm like precipitously like 10 centimeters, like screaming my head off, like completely unmedicated. Obviously. F bombs in, with my residents. You know what I mean? I'm a fellow at a residence. And like the OB is like in the corner because she doesn't care.  And so, the chief resident.

I'm not, I'm like this, I'm not exaggerating. This is actually how it played out. So then  the fourth year resident and the second year resident were there and they're the ones who took such good care of me. Like, I was like, I can't do this. I mean, you know, expletive, expletive, expletive. And like, Marina, she got in my face.

She's like, you have to do this. This is like this like Eastern European, like really she wanted you on oncology is like super tough and I was like, okay, Marina, I guess I got to do it. And so I like I pushed him out, you know, popped right up, went to the bathroom. Like I just remember and I remember and I will also tell you this.

She did my perineal repair and I had had dyspareunia again, maybe again, TMI, but your listeners need to hear this. The way that Marina did her repair cured me of my dyspareunia forever. So every time I have a birthday for my second son, I'm like, thank you again for everything you did, including curing my dyspareunia.

So, so yeah, I love that for 

you. I am so happy that that happened. Thank you. 

I'm so happy that happened too. Um, I mean, she's an excellent surgeon now and she's in New York City on her own. But anyway, thankfully, like the residents that night, you know, they had things under control and everything else. All the attendings felt like they were just kind of, 

um,  

Yeah.

And then, I mean, again, healthy mom, healthy baby. He came out, he screamed, he was perfect, he didn't need surgery. Um, you know, I do remember that by then my former spouse had gotten more kind of argumentative. I remember him yelling at a lot of people in the hospital. Which that was very stressful for me because I was like, I have to work with these people.

I don't really want, you know, this sort of, so I remember this like hyper vigilance about him in that situation. But my mom, I remember she ordered sushi to the delivery room, uh, the next day, which was super exciting. And I was just, I just like looked at him like, you know, child worship. I just like gazed at him.

I was just so excited to be a mom again. And he was just like the perfect little bundle. So I, I'm so grateful, you know, and honestly, I think I would have had more like. Like, we started our, I mean, our marriage was like, obviously suffering by this point. And um, the marriage kind of, there was like a sledgehammer to the marriage when the kids were four and two.

And so I really do think that if that had not happened and I had been in a better relationship, I think I would have had more, um, that does make me sad sometimes to think about. However, the children I have are, I know that there are the ones I meant to have. They have some neurodiversity now, so that's been, you know, we, we navigate that.

So I think, okay, how would I handle. Two neurodiverse kids, you know, plus whatever else would be there. So, but yeah, but I'm, I'm very grateful. 

And you know what I'm going to ask? Well, I don't know if you know, but I'm going to. What was your sledgehammer to the marriage? 

Oh, when my former spouse had an affair with our nanny.

Whoa, that was not what I was expecting. Do you want to keep going about that or no? 

We could talk about it. I said nothing is off limits.  

True, but this is like, I feel like it's one of those things that is like a secret fare of a lot of people. So, can you, like, tell me, how did you find out? 

How did I find, again, intuition.

Intuition. So, we were, um, in our family's beach house. Um, our family has gone to South Carolina since I was nine. And ever since we started having children, me and my sister, we've taken some help, right? Cause it just, uh, vacation's just a trip if you don't have support. So, um, we had taken people,  yeah, a few different years.

And, uh, I remember like earlier in the week he was making comments like, Oh, you know, like which bathing suits look good and which ones didn't. Like I thought that was like a little weird. And then, um, what happened was I remember I was like sitting with my dad. We always watch the sunrise together and.  Oh, actually, I guess the night before I should sort of frame this in context is we were, um, out to dinner and there was some drinking like he had had some things to drink.

And then we came home and the nannies had actually been drinking too. I thought that was kind of weird. and I could just tell that like that kind of conversation. Yeah. The kind of conversation was just kind of like, um, a little bit more sexual in nature than you might expect. You know, I know everyone has different standards, but it kind of like raised my eyebrows and I was like, Oh, that's kind of strange.

Okay. So then I, um, I basically, I remember said, okay, well I'm going to bed. And I thought to myself, this is not a good situation, even though to my knowledge, nothing had ever happened. But I remember I like looked at the scene and I thought like, he's a grown adult. Like  he can make his own choices. Like I think I'd maybe part of me knew and I went upstairs and then the next morning I woke up and like severe pain myself, like I was watching the sunrise with my dad and I was like, I feel like I am in labor, actually.

That's what I felt like. That's what I felt like. I felt like I was in labor.  And, and I'm like, something's not right in the universe. And my dad, of course, he's a urologist, he's like, oh, it's probably just gas pain. I was like, no, no, no, it's not gas pain. And so, but that,  that was our last day at the beach.

And, and like, just something was not right. Something was not right. And we were supposed to host a party for the junior faculty the next day at our house because at that point we were attendings, we had like a nice house, like, you know, that was sort of what we were doing. And he said to me that day, he was like, there's something I have to tell you.

And that's all he said.  And I knew immediately what had happened. I was like, no. No, I have to get out of here. And I did. I mean, I took the keys, I went for a drive, I called my best friend, I cried. I cried. And that's when we went into marriage counseling for like eight months religiously, like every Wednesday, an hour and a half every afternoon.

Um, I was studying for my boards at that point too, cause my RAI oral boards, so that was stressful.  But I was like, okay, we're going to like figure this out. Like we thought that being done with training was gonna sort of fix everything, but then actually,  actually things got worse when training was done because we had more time, we had more money and like nothing was better.

Things were actually worse.  Anger, like fighting, all those sorts of things. And so, um, when that happened, we got into marriage counseling and eight months later, right when I walked through the door from my oral boards, like I just flown back, got a flat tire on my way back from the airport, like came in after midnight.

And he said, I'm just telling you that, um, the affairs are going to continue. So I either want an open marriage or a divorce.  

Wow. 

And I'm like, I'm Catholic, like, I was like,  I thought to myself, like, I thought to myself, I thought we were making progress in therapy, but like, and I don't, I don't understand this.

Like we both were at the same wedding. Like I believed my marriage vows, like how can he not honor this promise that he made? You know, like what's going on? And I was, I was really sad. Like I was really, cause I had been putting a lot of effort into. Um, the marriage, at this point we had signed, we had resigned from our jobs, we had signed job contracts in a new city, we had signed a lease on a house, like, we were like, gonna create a new life in a new state, and when all this happened, it was like, mic drop, like, everything went silent, and I was like, there's no way I'm moving to a new city.

Like, in a different state, with no support, like, I've been here for six years now, five years, like, I know people, and I called my, my, my division director, and I was like, hey, like, I, you've been so gracious letting me go to therapy on my academic time, like, I just, I'm gonna tell you my marriage just imploded, like, it's, it's over.

Um, and, can I stay?  She's like, I'm getting on a plane, let me talk with the chair, I'll call you back. Two hours later, she called me back, she's like, you have your job back,  With no interruption of salary or benefits. And just my only ask is that you be transparent about, like, how things are going. Um, because she's like, I know you want to get to the East Coast, that's your goal, your whole family is there.

Just be honest with me. Um, and I, to this day, I just saw her at a conference a few, a few weeks ago. She is just such a godsend. I mean, just the fact that I could keep working at my job where I had support, where I had stable income, where, you know, and all my partners, like, they traded when I had court dates, like, it was a really rough time.

I had a four year old, a two year old. They became three and five. We're trying to tell them what was going on, trying to get them into therapy. Um, I mean, now they're 10 and 12, so they've known this life more than they knew the other life, you know, when we were all together. But, um, it was a really crazy time.

I mean, I did pass my boards, but I feel like that was kind of overshadowed by the fact that my marriage blew up at the same time. And I will tell you to this, like, it is one of the best things that's ever happened to me that I got divorced. Um, but, but it was also an incredibly hard time to figure out what to do next and to figure out how to be the best mom I could be when my own personal, financial, emotional reserves were just being, were like hemorrhaging, you know?

Right. Yeah. Right. Oh, my gosh. When you said you're I don't know why that's this is the part where it happened. But when you said your division chief or whoever that was, so that you can stay I got goosebumps everywhere. Because it was just like,  it's so amazing to have support just like one person to look out for you when you're going through a rough time.

And it's That could have been the thing that saved you from totally breaking and not being able to take care of your kids and all that. 

A hundred percent. And my former spouse did not get his job 

back. 

He did not. He, they said he could not come back to his job. And so I literally was like carrying all of us for that short time.

And like, I will tell you, like the bank account was like drained and like finance, all this financial sort of betrayal that is a whole layer of things too. So, um, but I, I was very supported and. I mean, I'm so grateful. Erica Marsh is her name, if anybody knows her. She's still division director at Michigan.

She's amazing. But, wow. I mean, it was, it was a, it was a really, really crazy time. And I mean, and you also have to find the right attorney too. Like the first, you know, my goal was to get close to my family in Vermont because that's what I'd always wanted. And the first attorney was like, no, no, like, you're going to be stuck in Michigan, stuck in Michigan.

And like, yeah. I hate to say it like that, but like, I mean, the people in Michigan were good, but I always just felt like a nomad there. Like I didn't feel like myself. Um, but I will say that like my sister's an attorney with the first attorney. She's like, I don't think you're getting what you need. I think you need to change.

And I talked to a colleague of mine who was in my division who had gotten divorced and she said, I got almost everything I wanted in my divorce. And then I talked to my realtor who helped us sell the house and like record time under the, cause we had to live under the same roof for like 10 weeks. It was terrible.

She helped us sell the house and she goes, Oh,  I got nearly everything I wanted in my divorce. And I was like, okay, you guys just both said the same thing. Like, who's your attorney? And then they told me who he was  and I was like, Oh, I got to meet this guy. And so I met this guy,  same attorney. Yeah. Same attorney.

Yeah. Oh, wow. Yeah. So then I'm like, so then I went and I met this guy and very unassuming, but he's like, I'll get you back to the East coast. And he like, Pulse and precedent case. And, and he's like, and he was so knowledgeable. And so, whereas the first attorney basically told me I couldn't have what I wanted.

And the second guy was like, yeah, I'll make this happen for you. And I had evidence that it had happened for other people. And so I was very grateful. I switched attorneys and he did like he, here I am, I work in Vermont and in New York and I'm within two hours from my family. We see them all the time. Um, Um, and my kids, they know their grandparents, which was like, for me, that was really, really important to me.

They're their grandparents, their cousin, their aunts and uncles, like the whole thing.  

Yeah. I know so many people that are divorced physician moms and they feel like they're stuck right where they are because of what I'm assuming would have been the same situation. So that is really amazing that that was your experience.

 Yeah. I think sometimes like, it's kind of just like finding your team at home that works for you. Like. You know, I've had different nannies over the years, au pairs, like right now my, my nanny is such a rock star. Like you have to find your A team. And when you're going through something like this, like you really have to find the person that's going to usher you through this.

And for me in that situation, it was like doing the research, talking to people and figuring out that, that Steve was my guy, you know? 

Yeah. Thank God for Steve. But wait, so Tommy. Yeah. How after this big thing happened, how did you get okay with having a nanny again?  

Oh, right. So let's see. Lot of therapy, a lot of therapy.

And at this point, I mean, so, you know, that was eight months. I'm trying to remember what we did. I think that they were in Montessori school. Like that was like the summer nanny. And then they went, they went into school and they were at Montessori. We love Montessori. And I think there were just like occasional babysitters at that point.

But, but there was not really a time when the marriage was good after that point. So I will say if we had stayed together, I think that would have been a real sticking point with trust and everything. But I think because that was like the fracture that was like the beginning of the end, I just never went back in my mind.

You know what I mean? And I think one thing that I learned in that experience is to really trust your gut. Like I really did sort of sense throughout that week what was happening.  And, but I, I pushed it down. I didn't listen to it. And so, you know, that's how, that's actually what people ask me more often than like, how, how did you get a nanny again?

It's like, how would you ever trust in a relationship again? And the point is that I trust me more than anybody else. I trust myself. So, you know, I need, yeah, sure. I need to, there needs to be certain contracts that like, there's certain behaviors that we'd like, we just don't like, I'm a monogamous person.

Like I'm not going to do that. Polly, whatever, like open marriage, not going to work for me.  However, like if I, if I'm in a relationship and I sense it's not happening, I trust myself so I'm going to be okay, if that makes sense.  So I think that's how I look at it. It 

makes perfect sense. 

Yeah. If I, if I were in this situation and I decided to stay with my partner and we were thinking about childcare, obviously a lot of therapy would be involved, but it's, it's more about that self trust piece that I think I'm getting better and better at with time.

Yeah. And I think that is so, so important that I just want to sit in a little bit because I was going to comment on that about all of your intuition. So I do think there are certain people that have higher intuition than others. And I do think that I'm one of those people. And now I'm realizing that. So are you, which is probably why we're friends, but it's It's so easy to ignore what your gut is telling you, especially when you don't want to see it.

You have your marriage, you're both doctors, y'all are out of training, you want everything to be fine. You're in this beautiful place with your family, it's like, I don't, I don't want to believe that this is what happened. And so Yeah, I'm just gonna ignore all those feelings.

I think that was really easy to do and it was very brave of you to Trust yourself to even know that this pain is a sign of something and then to believe it. Um, so I really Appreciate that you shared all of that And I think it is a good like reminder for many of us because I woman in general especially woman Physicians like you use your intuition so much at work.

That's what makes us such good doctors But then when it comes to home, it's like well, maybe I don't know  I don't know. But trust yourself, Doc. That's right. Trust yourself like Dr. Erica. 

And there's a lot of literature that has helped me about like empaths and how you can harness the empath strength and also not have to suffer the liabilities of being an empath.

So there's this thing, just for your listeners, cause it's so, so, so common in female physicians, the empath narcissist combination. I think that that word narcissist is like way overused, but it's basically when somebody is super, super giving. And somebody is like a super, super taker and how those two people come together because one person needs that supply and then the other person is always like giving the benefit of the doubt or making excuses for the other person and that can be a very dangerous combination.

I think a lot of people get together initially because of that and then over time those dynamics play out. And so, you know, I can spot these people now from a mile away. I can now, you know, I think setting boundaries is a big piece of it. 

I knew before this happened in the last year of the marriage that it was like a dead swamp. Like, I was not growing. I was not flourishing. I couldn't even go to like, and this is me, you know me, I'm like super opinionated. I'm super passionate. Like I could not even go to a restaurant and know what I wanted to eat because I was just like such a shell of myself.

Like I would get overwhelmed by the menu and be like, I don't know somebody else choose for me. So this has been like a reawakening of like, what do I actually want? What do I want in all aspects of life? And that also plays into, like, what do I want at this phase, you know, living life on my own terms, you know, practicing medicine in a way that allows me to be a good mom to my boys.

 But I think that that experience really started the process of me checking into my intuition, seeing if things were working or not, and if not, figuring out what readjustments needed to be made so that I could live a richer, fuller life, if that makes sense. 

It does.

And it is so beautiful and inspirational. So I cannot, I can't wait. I can't wait for this to come out. We can share with, with everyone. So as we wind down, I want to, I want you to be able to share what you're doing now with your amazing coaching practice with all of our listeners. Even though. Most of them are already moms you never know, and secondary infertility is very high in the physician community.

So, definitely, tell us what you are up to now and where they can find you. 

Sure. So, I started a fertility coaching practice just for female physicians called Love and Science Fertility, because I think it takes both.  Really, you know, it was sort of born out of my passion for coaching and then realizing what my patients needed.

And also like realizing that me as a single parent at this phase of life, full time clinical medicine is not good for me. I tried it. I tried it with all the childcare support in the world. And despite my best efforts of up training my team, changing my schedule, all those things, it really was not working for me and my boys to the point where my older son said, mommy, where are you?

You're here, but you're not here. And that was like me trying with all of my being to be fully present. And so I was like, I, you know, scaled back, I stopped working where I was, um, I was the head coach of a relationship coaching business for a year, and I started working per diem where I went to medical school, actually, at the University of Vermont.

And that sort of time working clinically has grown to about two weeks per month, and so I go, I teach the fellows, I do all that stuff, it keeps my hand in clinical medicine. I, you know, I love doing hard procedures, like it, you know, I feel like I worked really hard for these skills, and I love helping people at, I'm a little unconventional.

I meditate. I pray. I do all those things with my patients. Um, and I love teaching, but then also like I have this time where I am, you know, with my children, I'm passionate about coaching and I really, really wanted to create a safe space for women physicians as they were undergoing the fertility journey.

And so I have this amazing program. It's a three month program. I do one on one coaching and group coaching as well. I have content, I have videos, I have a podcast I have a WhatsApp chat, um, and really it's a community where people can be held. And so like Dr. Latoya, you said, like sometimes the first baby comes along and it's not such a problem.

You know, it's like, you know, not, it doesn't take too long. It's pretty uncomplicated. But then, especially as we get older, one in four female physicians has infertility. Um, I really wanted to create a space. So our group, you know, we have this very powerful support group. It's a mix of people who are, you know, hoping to be first time moms, but also there's a few people who are growing their families as well.

And if people hear this and they're like, oh my gosh, like that's me. Um, the best place to find me is loveandsciencefertility.  com, my website. Um, my podcast is, you know, is, is a free resource. I love, I love being creative and, and sharing good information on that. And then I also have social pages on Instagram and Facebook under the name loveandsciencefertility.

loveandsciencefertility. com Great. And your podcast name is the same? Love and Science Fertility. 

Everything's the same. Okay. Just wanted to make sure. Yeah. And all of that will be in the show notes.  All right, Erica. This was amazing. Thank you so much for sharing so deeply with the listeners. I, I do like to highlight many different stories because everybody's journey is different.

I know that. I have a lot to say and I have a lot to give, but there's so much more available and so much more richness and information to get from people in our own communities, so I really appreciate you sharing everything. 

Yeah, and we have one life to live, you know, I try to create joy, like, you know, joy is my guide and I know that there's work and I know that there's struggle and all those things and, you know, it's still not easy raising children in a divorce and trying to figure all that out, but.

You have your people, you have your people you care about, you know who you are, you stay true to who you are. And I really do think that when that happens, obviously, whether, you know, I have an amazing nanny and my family and all those things, like, when we are true to ourselves and do follow that intuition, I think that's when the magic starts to happen.

Amazing. You heard her, Doc. Follow your intuition and trust yourself. I cannot tell you how many times this week alone. I have said that in sessions with my clients. Just trust yourself. That's right. You know what is right for you. You know what's in your heart. Do not let anybody gaslight you. Do not let anybody make you doubt yourself.

Trust yourself, doc. You got this, right? And definitely share this episode with another physician mom who also needs to know that she can trust herself. And if you are on Apple Podcasts, leave us a five star review. If you are on any other platform, leave a five star rating. And please join again on Stethoscopes and Strollers.

Bye. Bye.