68. Crash C-Sections and Combat Zones: The Reality of Being a Military Mom

What happens when you’re a military surgeon, a new mom, and a woman navigating two male-dominated worlds — all at once?

This week, I sat down with Dr. Amy Vertrees — a trauma surgeon, Army veteran, and mom of two — who knows what it’s like to deliver babies, build a career, and serve her country… all while navigating early motherhood.

We talk about:

• What changed her mind about having children after a decade of marriage
• The real story behind being pregnant during surgical residency
• Leaving an 8-month-old behind for deployment — and what helped her cope
• How she moved from perfectionism to presence in her parenting
• Her message for every Physician mom who’s ever felt guilty for working or leaving
  
  
  

If you’ve ever felt torn between your calling and your children — this one will stay with you.

You don’t have to be in the room to still be raising them.

You don’t have to be everything, all the time, to be enough.

And you’re allowed to show up in motherhood your way — even if it looks nothing like the script you were handed.

Grab the Nanny Hiring Checklist here!

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Transcript

 Hey Doc. I am back with another wonderful guest. I am so excited because she has had me on her podcast twice, and I am so grateful that one of my clients was like, Hey. You should have her on yours. And I was like, yes, because she is amazing. She is Dr. Amy Vertrees. She is a board certified general surgeon.

She is an Army veteran. She is an author, podcast host, the founder of the Boss series. She is all the things and I am so excited to have this very new, fresh perspective so that you can feel a a little more seen and a lot less alone. As with all of my guests and with. All of those things. She's also a mother just like you.

So welcome Dr. Amy. 

Thanks, Dr. Toya. I really appreciate it. I, of course, enjoyed having you on the podcast. You offer so much wisdom, so it's really an honor to, to be included on yours and so thank you so much. 

Yes. Alright, so I want to take it back because I very recently found out that you were a veteran.

I think it was Veterans Day last year. I saw a post of yours. So tell me about that decision to enter the military. 

Yeah, 

it's a great 

point. Um, I joined the military in the year 2000 and uh, how it works was I was looking around at medical schools. And I was in Florida and none of the Florida schools really appealed to me.

So, um, I remember, remember picking up a book. Like a Kaplan book or something like that. And they described the school that was the best kept secret. And I was like, tell me more. It was the Uniform Services University, the health sciences, the only military medical school we have. And uh, we call it uses for short.

And if you haven't heard of it, you're not alone. No one, not many people know about it. Um, I know, right? I think it was established in like 1974 or 75, something like that. And um, it was seven four. It was a really great school. Uh, my dad was in the military, so it wasn't really, uh, a big stretch for me to consider it.

So having been raised, um, in the military family, it was kind of a way to, to honor my father's legacy when I was, you know, following a different path because he was not medical. but the military part really appealed to me because he was all in when it came to the army, the leadership, the opportunities, and, Good moral fiber, all the things that were really great examples for him. And so it was really kinda an honor to his service. but doing it my way. 

Yeah, that is beautiful. How I got little goosebumps. 

so he was in the Army as well. He was for 25 years and he went to Vietnam. Wow. Um, all the things when the army was not simple and, uh, had a, a really strong career and great mentors.

it was a really great experience for him. 

Yeah. Wow. Okay. My husband is ex-Air Force. he did 10 years there, so I, I met him at the end, which I'm grateful for because I am grateful for his service, but I was not signing up to be a military wife. Um, but I know it would've been a different experience for you having, you know, be that, be your entire childhood.

So, were you already married at this point? I was 

married and, you know,

Initially I did not think

we were gonna have kids.

It just... didn't appeal to me. We were married for 10 years

before we had kids. So, um,

I went through all of medical school

and it wasn't until residency

that I had my first child,

and uh, it was research year that did it.

And you know, like

They let you out of the, the grind

and the rat race

and you're like,

Oh my gosh,

we could have like hobbies,

and there's this

whole world out there

and all these other things.

And uh, I'd heard it said before

that a lot of people

who initially don't have children,

basically have

their career as a child.

I mean, this is where their focus is

and their priorities are.

And once you reach some stability

within your career, uh,

and start to realize

there may be more to life

in the career. Um,

And that's pretty much

what happened to me. Is I,

I started realizing

I can actually have this life.

I, I never actually even considered

uh, that was going to be for me.

And I'm really glad that

it worked out that way

because my husband and I were married for 10 years and so we had a really

good bond and understanding.

So when kids came along, you know,

as you know it, as you know,

it changes dynamics for everyone. Um, and as each child comes along, it changes dynamics. But for us, that's how it worked out.

I think my career was first

and um, and once it became stable,

it seemed more re reasonable to try.

  📍  📍 Yeah. Wow. I have so many questions. So do you mind sharing, how come you thought you wouldn't have kids? Like, was that always the case or was it because of medicine? 

You know, it wasn't really a conscious thought.

It just, it was not a desire, I did not feel anything compelling about it. It didn't, uh, I couldn't envision a child for myself and, uh, I really had no. Concept of how it would fit in my life. And it wasn't like a absolutely not, it was just, it was kind of a very bland decision of like, yeah, I, I'm not gonna have kids.

And, uh, it wasn't like an adamant, and it wasn't a, you know, it was just, it was almost like neutral, in fact. Yeah. So, um, it, so much so that I had said it, uh, and everyone kind of believed me that my mom was the first one to go, like, what? You're gonna have kids, what happened? 

Well, I'm glad it wasn't that she was pressuring you.

So that's good. And I love that you brought that up, because that is a perspective that people don't hear a lot. And it's very similar to how I was, you usually hear people like, oh, you know, I knew when I was a child, I want to be a mother.

And then it's like, you know, absolutely not, I don't wanna do it. But there's this middle ground where it was just like, eh. We'll see, I feel very ambivalent about it. Exactly. Exactly. So thank you for making us feel seen. And it doesn't mean that, you know, 'cause you tell people things like that and they're like, oh, you're lying.

You don't, you don't know it's because you're single. Like if you were whatever. And it's like, well no, this is just a variation of normal. So I love that you shared that. So when you decided. It was 10 years, which is great. I feel like that's such a great foundation to know who you are as a couple before kids.

What was the transition like once you did have the first one? Well, I think it's like most 

things, um, you know, once you make that decision, I was all in and, uh, it, it almost like a, like a switch flipped. It didn't occur to me before and then all of a sudden like, ah, you know, it was kind of like we were driving to Florida, um, for a vacation and it was like 16 hour drives, you know?

We really liked to drive. Wow. And we were just having this conversation and then it just kind of came out. I was like, you know, at first I was like, I, I don't know. Like, do you think we should? Like, I mean, yeah, maybe. And then that was the first thought that, that, that occurred. Um, and from then on it was like, all right, well, we'll do this.

And, and even then, it wasn't like a pressure thing, which was kind of nice. So it's nice to have something that would be nice, but also not mandatory. So there was really no pressure around it at all. And then from then on it was, all right, well. Opening our eyes up to a new possibility of the future that we hadn't looked at.

And so it, it brought a little bit of excitement, much like anytime we pivot in our life and say, I'll try this. And you get excited about it. Um, and it wasn't like I missed it before and needed it now, but it was a pivot and it was exciting. And so that part, uh, really just kind of transformed, something that I'd never even considered.

Yeah. That's amazing. And where in your. Military career. Were you, so you did residency in a, like how does it work in the military? Tell me about that. Yeah, 

it depends. Um, when you get accepted to Uiss, you have to be, uh, able to be admitted as a, uh, commission as an officer. So you have to be first accepted into the military.

Uh, I think you first get your medical school acceptance. Then you have to make sure that you are applicable or like able to, to enter into the military. Then you commissioned as an officer to join the school. So we start day one as a second lieutenant, um, or an oh one officer in the military. So I, I had four years.

When I graduated medical school and then seven years, I'm sorry, six years of residency and then seven years payback afterwards. Um, and it's, it's a really great deal. It's a phenomenal school, great education. You get all the ranks and pay and benefits of being an officer in the military. And, um, so we had to wear uniforms, which was not a big deal at all.

And then we had field training exercises and those were really great too. Um, it was just a really great experience, to be a part of the, the military. in that way. And some of our experiences, we got to actually interact with real people in the military. You know, you don't really feel like you're really in the military, but yeah.

Then we would go in these field training exercise with the Marines and things like that. And, you know, starting to get appreciation for the small community that we actually support. And, so I got four years in, in medical school with these training exercises. And then in residency, um, I was at Walter Reed for the heights of the war.

So when I joined the military, September 11th hadn't happened. That was my second year of medical school. Right. And so six years of residency, um, at Walter Reed, we saw the heights of the wars of, Iraq and Afghanistan. And, and so every Tuesday and Sunday we would have war injured come in. And um, and we really had, uh, a phenomenal experience in learning a lot about trauma.

And I did a lot of trauma research at that time too. it was, uh, just fortunate and, or unfortunate I should say, that I was there at the time when there was such a heavy war burden. 

Yeah. Wow. Wow. So, when. Was the decision to have the child relationship to the war? Oh yeah. To answer your actual question, so our, 

I was so enthralled.

It's fine. Our research year was in our, our fourth year. So, um, the four years of medical school, four years of residency, and then our research year came about. And so, um, I was pregnant during research year and ended up delivering, um, in one of our senior resident years. So, uh, our PGY five. 

Okay. And.

Knowing that it was at this time, because it hadn't computed in my mind before. Did the fact that the war was going on affect your decision? Was that like, yeah, maybe we should wait. I. 

It's a good question. Um, at the time, uh, the conflict with having a child in my residency was, was one that most people can understand.

I was going to inconvenience some residents, and I remember, I mean, as soon as that, like second line hit, I talked to my program director very, very early on and honestly it was really frustrating that, um, there was no accommodations made. You know, it was somehow on me to make these accommodations. Um, and in fact, I actually have a really funny story about that.

Um, I was on the CT surgery, vascular surgery service. I was on call for them the day that, um, I had some complications. And so I went to the doctor that day. I was still on call for vascular, and, uh, said, you're getting admitted today. We're getting induced today, and you know, this is happening.

I'm like, oh, okay. Well, can I finish clinic first? Right. Yeah, truth truly. And so I was on call and, and ironically the, uh, obese called and said that we have this patient who has a PE and you're on call and I also know you're on labor and delivery. And I was like, you know, just give 'em my ox and call the attending directly.

Um, it's like, yeah, it's not me. but I, you know, still as all of us, um, you know, trying to not bother other people. Yeah. And, uh, I was on the CT surgery service, so I asked the junior resident to, um, I was giving away cases left and right. 'cause I'm like, you know, nine months pregnant. And the, on the CT surgery service, the, the thoracic guy liked to do everything open and it was long.

And those were, those were really hard. And so I was just giving away cases left and right. Yeah. 

Wow. Yeah. So during the pregnancy, did you, like, how did you handle it being that pregnant with, in that type of environment? 

Well, like a typical surgeon would, you know, so like the first trimester was just, you know, ill, and like, whatever.

It wasn't bad, but my second trimester, um, I was, Five, six, and seven months pregnant. I think when I was at Shock Trauma in Maryland. And that was like an intense rotation, like this, one of our more intense ones. So every third day we were on call and um, you know, we are just sort of heroic. I, I remember one of the attendings, saying like, do you wanna sit down for this?

Like, no, you know, it's like very obstinate and um, right. So I, you know, honestly didn't take care of myself as, as we don't, you know, because I, I didn't want people to have an impression of me. You know, I wasn't really conscious at the time, but looking back, it's pretty obvious. And so when someone offered me like some accommodation, I was very determined to say, no, I will do everything that everybody else does.

Um, but on the bonus side, we were on call every third. Day, it was during the summer in Baltimore and that, that rotation is intense. So, um, we would order like milkshakes every day we recall. So I had a milkshake every third day. And um, any medical student that was on, we had free access to ultrasounds.

Like anyone wanna see a baby? That is hilarious. I can tell you ultrasounds every third day do not seem to hurt babies. 

They don't. And that's, thank you for saying that. 'cause some people are like, oh, we don't know what will happen. Nothing. Nothing will happen. That is hilarious. Okay, so you pushed through, didn't want people to think that you weren't committed, you know, just.

Typical for a female surgeon trying to prove herself in a male-dominated specialty or any specialty for that matter. Mm-hmm. Um, so, okay, so you had the baby, was everything fine with your birth? How did that go? 

Everything was fine. Um, she was three weeks early, uh, so ran into, um, Oli Hydro Amnios and ended up having a crash c-section, so, oh.

Apparently a placenta was only like six inches long and things like that. So, um, so between probably, you know, could have taken better care of myself. Uh, I imagine probably some dehydration and things like that too. Yeah. Um, I, I do, you know, another funny anecdote, I, I remember being on CT surgery thinking.

Whenever people call, I was like, do I really have to go? They sound fine over the phone and every time I would move I felt like my pelvis was breaking. So, uh, you know, but anyway, we, we powered through. and yeah, it was, it was an interesting time. I. 

It's funny that milkshakes are not that very hydrating, so it's like, yes, you probably should have been drinking some water.

Exactly. That is a typical triage summer. Everybody comes in for contractions, like, have you been drinking any water? No. But yes, typical. Okay. Um, so that. Crash c-section. I know for us as OBGYNs it is one thing, but I want to get your perspective, like how, how was it for you, um, to go through that as a doctor, as a new mom?

Like tell me about that experience. 

Well, it's, it's actually really interesting because, you know, we think that we'll be like accommodating. You know, we, we ask our patients, we do the, the. Whatever informed consent, and we expect them to, you know, just sign and, and, and trust us. And I, I remember the anesthesia, uh, resident coming in saying, you know, whatever, like, do you want this?

And I'm like, I don't know, like spinal hematoma and all, you know, I actually was like starting to like freak out of all the things that are possible. And, uh, he had a lot of patients with me and then he finally said like, Hey look, we're kind of busy. This is like now or never. I'm like, alright, fine, fine, go ahead.

So, you know, that was, that was one thing is, is. You know, when you're in the position to accept an intervention, I was surprised at my own worry, and it, it helped me understand how patients get a little bit hesitant about things too, because, you know, when rubber meets the road and you have to agree to something, you know, all your fears come up.

so that was, you know, surprising. The, uh, the crash c-section part. I mean, I knew about D cells and things like that too, so I kind of knew, um, that things were kind of going on because they, they were like rush in. Yeah, and then they like look around and then rush out and then start right. This can't be normal.

Is this normal? 

And then 

Right. My husband and probably at the time when nobody was talking to you about anything, well, I guess that still happens now, but you know, they come look at this, the monitors and walk out and nobody says anything. It's like, come on, people. 

I thought it was kind of normal for just.

A whole bunch of people to rush in at once, multiple times. And then, um, the last time it was interesting, I, I didn't necessarily catch onto this, my husband did. So the, that one time that they came in, the surgeon was like taken off his ring and putting it away and things like that too. And then it, it was in like five minutes.

I actually highly recommended, I didn't have any time at all to think about it, you know, it was like, oh, we're going. Okay. Sure. Yeah, fine. That is a take I have never heard before. I didn't have anticipation. I didn't have worries. All of a sudden we're doing this and five minutes later it was done. Right.

And 

then I have a baby. Excellent. That is good. It's not bad. I'm so, I'm so glad that that was your experience. Okay, good. So how was recovering after all of that? 

well that, so I went home and I, you know, we have like, this is like the difference between our thoughts about what's gonna happen and what actually happens.

So, you know, we have the bassinet next to the bed and I'm like laying flat after my C-section. And, you know, we have this like, beautiful, like quaint, you know, magazine cover picture of this. And so I laid down, the kid cries, I sit up, horrible pain. She hates the bassinet. Right. And from then on I was in a re, in a recliner for like six weeks.

Wow. Oh, that sounds terrible. 

Okay. It's so funny 

now. 

Well, I'm glad you, I'm glad you lied. At least you're not crying, so that's good. So how many children do you have? I didn't one. I have 

two now. Um, two. 

Okay. 

But I do wanna tell you about how terrible of a patient I was. 

Oh my, please tell me. 

Okay. So as soon as they took my epidural out, I knew my Foley could come out.

So I asked them to, uh, to take it out and they wouldn't. I said, can you tell me where I could find a 10 CCC syringe?

Oh, don't be that. That patient, I was totally that person and I even dialed down my fluids and everything too, so Wow. I was a terrible patient. And then I asked for, staple remover kit so I could take my staples out. No, you didn't. I sure did. Did you actually do it? Well, they wouldn't let me, so, okay.

I did still push back. I was like, so what you're saying is you, you want me as a PGY four to come in? Actually, I was PGY five at that time. Come in and have the med student take out my staples. 

I didn't think about it that way. Oh yeah. Yeah. You definitely could have done it. Hmm. 

Alright, so here's the thing though, I was, you know, nice and smug about all this, right?

So, you know, I'm in there like, as a first parent, you know, a first kid parent and things like that. You know, everything's quiet. All the things. Try to keep it all gentle. Well, you know what happens when the, it's a little bit dark. You do not notice that your child is turning orange, so. I had trouble with breastfeeding and I did not notice it.

And so when I did finally go to get my staples out, like I, I finally listened to them and they're like, have you noticed that your kid is kind of like, I. Not an okay color. Her bilirubin was 20 because wow. Breastfeeding was not working. And of course, you know, everything was dark and I didn't notice it.

And as soon as we went into like real lights, I was like, oh my, 

yeah. Wow. 

Maybe I'm actually this, maybe I'm actually terrible at this. 

No way. So is, was she crying a lot? Like was she not getting enough transfer? What, what was going on? 

No, no, just that, you know, the breastfeeding didn't work and it didn't work for either of my kids, uh, too.

So just despite trying really hard for, for two weeks, I tried really hard for two weeks for that. Um, and then finally just kind of gave up. Had to be admitted to do the Billy Lights, all the things. Yeah, 

yeah, yeah. So that's 

being a terrible mother. 

Yeah. No way. That's not, Hey, I feel very strongly about that.

Once you feed your baby, that's fine. Just keep them fed. Yes. So what, did that affect you in any way? Like what relationship did you have with breastfeeding? 

Well, um, I tried really hard. Um, and, you know, we did the, the pump and all these, and I tried all these, uh, different things and just for some reason it just, uh, just didn't, um, actually come in.

And so, which I, I laugh about it all the time now. I mean, at the time it was very distressing and yeah, you know, like. This was my first, like, I'm not achieving something, which is really annoying. And so that was one thing that motherhood has offered is that, you know, I think I'm right. I'm not, and I try for stuff that doesn't work.

And I was like, oh, is this what parenthood is? Is this this like failure after failure? And so this is fun. Well, you frame it like that. Yeah. But I joke about it now. Like I, I do a lot of, um, as a general surgeon, I still see a lot of breast cancer patients. Mm. So I, I always joke about it saying, I mean, I do this for a living.

I couldn't get mine to work, so Right. Right. 

Yeah. It's good to have that perspective to relate to your patients a little bit more. So you went back to work, I'm assuming, after only six weeks. Right? I. So the way the A-C-G-M-E worked, um, 

at the time was, um, they would allow you to have four weeks and you can use two weeks of vacation.

So, um, I only took six weeks and it felt a little bit short. And it was a really hard, actually because, um, the, my next rotation after that was pediatric surgery. And so there was nothing like leaving your kid and then seeing all the bad things that could happen to kids. And so that was probably the most traumatic I would, you know.

Everyone kind of focuses on the pregnancy as the hard part. Well, the kid's with you all the time. You know, once you leave, like once the, the kid, you know, your, your child is somewhere separate, like you're always worrying. That was, I was not really prepared for always worrying. Yeah. And then, then I go into an environment where I have very good reason to worry.

Yes. Yes. That is terrible. That's why I can't do peds. Like, who wants to see sick kids? Um, that is, yeah. Do you think that there was. A little sprinkle of postpartum anxiety that may have been undiagnosed or it was just because of the environment that you were in? 

I feel like, uh, I didn't feel, um, I.

Anything beyond what probably was felt like normal, you know? Yeah. I felt a little bit of, of anxiety and worry, but it wasn't all consuming. Yeah. I don't think I would have really honestly enjoyed pediatric surgery anyway. Um, but having, you know, a little bit of it, it hit a little too hard to see these kids.

Yeah. And, you know, I was probably a little bit too, um, unobjective in some of these things too. So it was an interesting time, um, to have that rotation. So I was quite glad to get off of it. I'm sure. I'm sure. 

What kind of support did y'all have at the time? Is your husband a physician? 

Uh, he's not a physician.

He was working at the time, so the first time he was working a full-time job, but, um, was very flexible and that was helpful. There was, um, only one time where we really ran into problems with. Um, children and that, that had to do, actually it was my second child, but it had to do with more, with um, uh, deployment aspects and things like 

that.

So, yeah. So tell me about that. I know you deployed multiple times 

or, uh, three times actually. So two kids, three deployments. So, um. Finished residency 2010 and we were, you know, actively, um, going through war times the first time. We are not deployable when you're a resident. So my, um, first child was basically inconveniencing other residents, which everyone couldn't, couldn't understand.

My, um, second child, I was a little bit hard because I finished residency 2010 with, and um, I had my first child in 2008. I didn't want to get pregnant right away because you didn't wanna be that guy that looked like they were avoiding deployments. So I thought, you know, we'll get another deployment before we would even consider, um, anything like that.

So my first deployment was, was in 2011, so, um, right afterwards. And so my, um, oldest was two, two and a half. And, all the deployments were hardest the month before. And that's as you're anticipating leaving? Yeah. And worrying if you're gonna come back. So it, that actually probably provided more anxiety and worry than anything.

Um, I felt a lot of pressure to make sure things were set up and, you know, memories were made and, you know, there was a lot of pressure to make sure she could read. Um, because I was like, if something happens to me and my husband, if she could read it, I feel like she would be okay. Yeah. So that. That first month is the hardest because you're not gone, the clock hasn't started, and you're really worried.

Um, and so once you leave, it's almost a relief. It's strange to say, but it's almost a relief because the worry is over. The clock has started and you, you know, that the countdown has begun, and that was really, really helpful. 

Wow. And you all do long deployments, right? The Army. How long do y'all deploy for?

Um, as doctors it was a little 

less. So we would split the, the actual, deployments. So most arm Army deployments were 12 months long, so, um, this one was six months. Now you typically leave, you know, three or four weeks ahead of time for pre-training, getting all your equipment, things like that. And then afterwards when you come back, there's like a.

Redeployment and things like that too. So, um, my first one ended up being, you know, closer to eight months. 

Oh, okay. And what was it like, I know you said there was a relief once you actually started. Mm-hmm. But what was it like being away from your child during that time? Especially such a young baby? 

I was really lucky in the fact that I, you know, trusted my husband a hundred percent.

So we had a great relationship, which was great. And he, um, really focused on, um, making videos and he would tag me on Facebook and um, 'cause Facebook was actually pretty easy to get. Um, we had Skype at the time, so, uh, it was almost every day I could talk to, to them Or see her, you know? So I didn't honestly feel like I was so disconnected.

Um, there were times, uh, if someone was killed in, in the field, basically calms were down, you couldn't talk to anybody. So there were times like maybe, uh, a few days here and there where, where I could not talk to 'em, but almost always could see, see them every day. 

Wow.

Okay. And you, you are general surgeon. You're not a trauma surgeon. Or 

in 

the Army you are a trauma 

surgeon. 

That's what I was about to ask. I was like, it doesn't even make a difference once you, once you're over there. So I, and I wanna tread carefully here. Is that something that you are Okay talking about or not really?

A hundred percent. So how was that, you know, apart from, you know, having your child over here being a trauma surgeon in this war, what was that like? 

So, um, in 2011 I was in Jalalabad, so, or J Bed and I was there in 2011. That's where the SEAL team, um, I. Got Bin Laden. I was there at the time. We met the medical team, but we did not meet the, uh, actual seal team.

We were there, you know, OAR 30 was aaba and, and filmed was, was from there. So that's basically the environment, uh, that I was in. And all three deployments were a little bit different. This first one was probably as close to like real, real deployment as you can imagine. So not only was a clock starting, but you're significantly distracted with the job and events going on.

Um, our base is attacked. Pretty substantially once. And, you know, a couple other times here and there, there's always the risk of green on blue attacks, which is, um, you know, the Afghan, uh, support staff, uh, attacking Americans. And it's, you know, it sounds terrible, but I think we, I. We didn't understand. and we were taught a little bit of this ahead of time.

Um, the cultural differences between us and, you know, Afghans. So if you insult someone, they are, are obligated to retaliate, you know, so the. There's some cultural differences you have to be careful about. And uh, there were a lot of times where our interpreter was talking like a long time to a patient and I was like, Hey, what's going on over there?

Like, you know, you guys seem look like you're talking a lot. And he's like, I'm kind of talking 'em down. Y'all are, you know, we had to be very careful about being, um, respectful and mindful and things like that. Um, I was pleasantly surprised that I did not have that much of an issue being a female over there.

Um, because, you know, females are not. Necessarily considered equal. Um, but they were very respectful, which was helpful. There was only one time where, uh, someone higher up in, uh, the Afghan military came in and, and gave a little attitude to one of our, uh, x-ray techs who was also female and said, uh, she said, take a deep breath for the x-ray.

And he said, I don't do what women tell me to do. Well, damn. Okay. Okay. Don't take a deep breath. I don't care. Right. Get a, get a bad image. All right, fine. Yeah. But for the most part, um, you know, we try to be very respectful of their culture and they were very respectful for us. Um, and, but, you know, that was certainly a risk.

I mean, you look around saying, you know, could these people turn on us? And, um, and there, there were a couple times, there were some tense moments and things like that. Uh, so that, that was one underlying pressure. Um, the. The medical aspect was very difficult. Um, at that time we were doing a lot of nighttime operations, so it was very difficult to decide when to be up and when to sleep.

And it was, uh, February, 2011, which was, I, I remember, 'cause my birthday was around that time and I think we worked for like two weeks straight. Like not really. I hard to tell what was up and down and, and we actually had to, you know, triage our time. Um. And that was, that was a real challenge. But, so when I was gone, I, I, you know, it's, it is been described before and, and I agree.

You basically put your family and the, you know, home in a box and you put it on a shelf and it rattles every now and then. But for the most part, you're just there doing stuff and, and it's very intimidating, like at that time. I was doing neck explorations, thoracotomies, you know, we had a pancreatic injury.

We had someone who shot himself with this M 16, um, in the abdomen. And, um, we would get, uh, a lot of times the Afghan folks, because they didn't have body armor, we'd have a lot of penetrating injuries. And then Americans were in like these big vehicles and had a little bit more of the, the big blast injuries, you know, especially from, from below.

So the injury patterns were a little bit intimidating. And to give you an idea of what we have over there, there's. I was there with two other general surgeons, so it was three general surgeons, orthopedic surgeon. Um, we were part of a full FST, so about a 20 person, uh, group. And then we were co-located with the Charlie Med Group, which is phenomenal.

They were the medical group and um, we would get like whole blood, like some, if we needed someone for a massive transfusion, all they would do is like, call over the speaker. We need this, um, this blood type. And you would have a line of people and we would have blood in our hands in 30 minutes. Um, wow. It was, uh, a really remarkable time.

Um, the only thing we had there was x-ray and ultrasound, and sometimes our x-ray tech would be required to, you know, guard the base itself too. So it, it was just interesting to get by a lot with the little that we had. Yeah. So no CT scanners, no laparoscopic stuff. Um, so it, it was, um, a stretch of all of our training, but luckily, I mean, I really felt like I had the best training Yeah.

At Walter Reed and then shock trauma really. Um, I. Prepared us a lot for it. Uh, we were on Dr. Scalia's team and, and he's a phenomenal, well-known trauma surgeon and he was always very, very kind and supportive for the military. And he knew that within a few, um, you know, like within two years we could potentially be in these situations.

We were all by ourself. So he let us, you know, do hands on stuff. He really focused on a lot of the vascular stuff and, and um, you know, it was probably one of the, the biggest, um, advocates for our real life training. And really supported us with that too. So, um, I really felt at that time that I was in the best position to help help others.

Yeah. Wow. That is insane. I can't, so after experiencing all of that, and then you come home mm-hmm. What was that transition like to come back home? 

It's weird. It's kind of like you put the deployment thing. In the closet and you shut the door and you come back and, um, it was, I mean, and you really honestly just reintegrate into normal life and then it becomes like a memory.

And, uh, that month before out of the whole deployment is probably the month before you left. That was always the hardest because now you're living, and I understand now, um. With all the, the mind work that I've learned about is that you live in your mind and you live in your worst case scenario before you leave.

And then when you're in it, it's not so bad. I mean, actual, real life is usually not as bad as we think. And then we come back and now it's in the past. So it goes in the back of your mind. Um, we at the time had a very heavy, um, optempo, um, which is, you know, like deployments. And in that first deployment, I remember our consultant for general surgery for the army.

Sent us an email. 'cause he's like, I just wanna let you guys know what the situation is. We have 150 general surgeons in the army and 50 are nondeployable. Either medical or or residents and 50 are deployed. So y'all do the math. So we basically, every time we would come back home, we were on the countdown for the next time.

Wow. And it's hard too because like if you're pregnant, you're nondeployable. Right. So there was a little bit of pressure of saying that, you know, if if I am not deployed, someone is deploying for me. Yeah. And never really wanted to be that guy. Yeah. But at the same time, you also have to accept, well, you know what, ain't getting any younger.

Right. So, 

yeah. How old were you for your kids when you had your kids? 35 and 38. 

Okay. Which by the way, is listed on the record as geriatric pregnancy. 

Yeah. We don't use that anymore. Sorry about that. It's good. It's advanced maternal age right now. Yeah. Love it. Okay, so that is an interesting, very unique early motherhood journey.

the second baby came when in all of this mix? 

You know, honestly, that was the much harder one. So, um, the first appointment I was sort of, I knew I was expecting it and, you know, it had everything all set up. She was two and a half, so she was relatively, you know, she was excited about everything and everyone I knew she was gonna be okay.

Um, but the second deployment was hard because, um, I left, I. My youngest when she was eight months old and so had not even started crawling. And that part, that was really, really hard. Um, because she transformed the most when I was gone and, you know, felt, uh, like. More of an abandonment than, um, my oldest.

And it was just, you know, I just honestly just didn't wanna go. 

Yeah, 

don't blame you. 

Yeah. I mean, honestly, like looking back though, like the first, second and third deployment, the third deployment wasn't terrible because I knew this was gonna be my last, I was gonna get outta the military afterwards.

Um, and in fact, I volunteered for that one. I knew I'd be set up for another one. So I, you know, in. The desire to take a little bit of control. I volunteered for it just to make sure that I could start planning for life beyond the military. Um, and uh, it, it's, and it's funny how it works, because they had a deployment at Kuwait.

I was like, I'll, I'll volunteer for Kuwait. That's reasonably safe. You know, it could, anything can happen. But of course, um, what they did not tell me was Kuwait is like one step to Iraq, which is where I went. Right, right. So, but at the same time, I knew another deployment was coming. So I was honestly really fortunate.

Um, both our, our first deployment we had a significant, um, risk. The second deployment, not so much. I was in the Helman providence, um, in the desert at, uh, camp Dwyer, and that wasn't. Awful. Um, and then my third deployment was in, um, Erbil, Iraq, uh, which is actually Kurdistan. I actually felt really, really safe there.

Um, but come to find out like two years later that they were significantly attacked. Wow. So you never know when you're in, in enemy territory, what's gonna happen. And we've had a orthopedic surge in general surgeon killed, and, and a lot of people that had much, much closer, attacks that could have potentially resulted in this too.

So it, it's a substantial risk. 

Yeah. Wow. So I feel like you have a very unique position for this next question that I'm gonna ask, but I'll ask a pre question. How old are your kids right now? They are 12 and 16 right now. Okay. So you left one when she was two and a half and then the other eight months, that was the harder one.

Mm-hmm.

Now looking back

and looking at the relationship

that you have now,

do you see like, the effects

of that early separation? 

 Nope, we have all forgotten.

And it didn't,

you know, honestly,

it did not take long to forget.

And, you know, I see people all the time

worried about

a night or two things, like that.

Um, you know, Kids are resilient

and they really,

you know, honestly,

they're interacting

with the world on their own. Um,

And we have the ability

to maintain the relationship

with them even if we're not there.



  📍  📍 So one thing to consider is. They, they have their own lives too. And I think that that starts early on having their own life.

So, um, I, I think definitely giving them, the credit for being able to start navigating their own life and starting, you know, kind of the letting go process that we're there to support them. and the second has to do with mom guilt, you know? We, we set them up and we are caring for them even if we're not there.

And,

Before my first deployment,

and I did it for all three of them,

I planned for gifts

every month

and I bought them ahead of time

and basically kind of

revealed it over time.

And so planning to be front of mind

for them over time.

So even though I wasn't there,

I felt like I had

cared for them ahead of time.

And that part

helped me a a little bit too.

But, Because we think, because we're not in their face, we're not caring for them. But honestly,

like, I picked the right spouse,

pick the right father,

and... I plan to, that's a number one. If you want, if anyone takes anything from this, pick the right father of your children.



That is a word right there And he actually did a lot towards keeping me front of mind in, in front of them too. So, I mean, I, I think that the spouse can actually do a lot when we're away and saying, you know, mom loves you. She's thinking about you. And you know, because really our relationship with other people or our thoughts about them.

And so if we're offering them thoughts and, um, consciously all the time, then we are maintaining that relationship. It doesn't have to be a proximity. 

I love that. That is like one of my core tenants as a coach for physician moms is to help release that guilt. Because you're right, we don't, I love how you said it.

We don't have to be in their face all the time. They don't wanna their face all the time. it doesn't make you any less of a mother. And if a lot of the things that cause this guilt, it's like borrowed guilt from other people's expectations and definitions of what mothers are supposed to be. But we are making our own definitions as physician moms.

And definitely you had to do that as a military surgeon mom, and it was wonderful to hear about your story and your journey. It's. I'm so glad we could do this. 

Me too. Yeah. And without question, it has become such a distant memory. It was so remarkable at the time. But you know, the worst, truly, I want people to really remember this, the worst was worrying about it because you live the worst case scenario.

Um, and looking back, it is like literally all forgotten. I mean, wow. You know, I have pictures and I have videos. And in fact, you know, the one 100% bright side of that is that we knew I would not be around. We knew that I would miss things. So we have a lot more pictures and videos than I think we would have otherwise.

Yeah. And that is the gift that really, really, we probably would not have considered at the time. And it's really important now because our kids are different people than they were before. Like, yeah. They're just different. And, um, to have that memory of, you know, that time is probably the biggest gift of that.

And so we never took it for granted. And that, that is what we'll always have is the memories and, and realizing how important it is. As my kids now, I take lots of pictures now and they find it all irritating. And I keep saying, trust me, you will appreciate this later. 

Exactly. The. That's wonderful. I, you've given so much knowledge and wisdom, but is there anything else you wanna leave our listeners with?

I think just really trust yourself. I,

I think that I did

trust myself a lot on the way,

but you know,

there's so much worry

and uncertainty.

And I think just realizing

that you will come up with the right thing,

that you are on the right track,

that the discomfort

doesn't necessarily mean

you're doing something wrong.

It usually is just, um, awareness of,

you know,

that we have a, an important job

and trusting ourself

and not adding any layers of harm

and suffering, and guilt to it.

It, It's completely unnecessary.

They don't need it

and we don't need it.



  📍  📍 I love that. I love it. Thank you, Dr. Amy. , This has been amazing and I want to have you just tell our listeners a little bit more about your podcast and your coaching just in case there are any surgeons listening.

Oh, that's great. Thanks. Mm-hmm. Well, Dr. Toy, thank you so much for having me on first. This was a real honor. I mean, I'm so, um, happy to, to support your listeners and all. , I have, the podcast called The Boss Business of Surgery Series, and this was. Filling in what I know I needed, which is the lessons not taught in residency.

How to deal with difficult colleagues, how to deal with complications, how to be more efficient in clinic, and you know, how to navigate this, this job that we have and, negotiate and advocate for ourself. So my podcast is highlighting other people like yourself, and really supporting the mission that I now see is my mission, which is to, Elevate eight oh as we rise is to help others, people, and I, it's this collaboration and network and support of other people, which is, you know, honestly my mission. That's how the podcast started. I have a book called the, become the Boss, MD. Success Beyond Residency that follows a fictitious surgeon, through, uh, her career, both from interviewing to career changes.

I'll have another book coming out, um, called Cutting Through Conflict, talking about dealing with difficult colleagues. . I coach one-on-one, and I also have a group for female surgeons, um, currently. So that's, uh, how I help serve. 

Amazing. There's so many different ways, and I didn't know that you had a second book coming out.

She is absolutely amazing. So all of her information will be in the show notes and make sure that you share this episode with another physician. Mom, you may not be in the military. You may never deploy, but all of these things are important for all of us as. Physician mothers because we are gonna have to be away from the kids at some point.

And it is good to have the perspective of a seasoned mother to give us, you know, everyone will be okay. Reassurance. Exactly. Everyone will be okay. So be sure to share. Leave a five star review on Apple Podcast, a five star rating everywhere else, and we will see you on the next episode of Stethoscopes and Strollers.

Bye.