88. Guilt Pills & Rigid Roles: Dr. Saumya Dave Gets Real

Hey Doc,

What happens when you stop following the script and start building a life that actually fits you?

This week on Stethoscopes and Strollers, I’m joined by Dr. Saumya Dave — psychiatrist, author, private practice owner, and mom of two — for a conversation that’s equal parts real, reflective, and full of permission.

We talk about the seasons of life and how every one of them demands something different from us. From navigating 200+ rejections on her path to becoming a published author, to choosing private practice straight out of residency, to redefining success and motherhood on her own terms, Dr. Saumya reminds us that there’s no single path to fulfillment.

This episode isn’t about “balance.”

It’s about alignment — and the courage to keep reshaping your life, even when people don’t understand it.

You’ll hear:

• How Dr. Saumya turned 200 rejections into a bestselling book deal
• What it looks like to build a creative life alongside medicine and motherhood
• Why listening to your body is a skill physicians often have to relearn
• The power of grace and empathy in healing relationships with parents
• How giving yourself permission to change your mind can change everything

If you’ve ever wondered how to honor all the parts of yourself — the doctor, the creative, the mom, the partner, the you, this conversation will remind you that you’re allowed to be all of it without apology and without limits.

🎧 Tune in and hear how Dr. Saumya’s story invites us all to live expansively, define success on our own terms, and embrace the seasons we’re in.

Subscribe to ✨Stethoscopes and Strollers✨ on your favorite podcast platform so you never miss an episode.

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If you are going through a transition -- becoming a parent, leaving a job, figuring out how manage it all, schedule a strategy coaching session and get clarity and strategic next steps for the life and career you want.

Strategy Coaching Session with Dr. Toya

Transcript

Hey Doc, I am back with another wonderful guest. I am so excited to have here with me, Dr. Saumya Dave. She is a psychiatrist and she is an author. She is a private practice owner and she is a mom just like you. So welcome Dr. Saumya Thank you so much Dr. Toya. I'm so excited to be here.

Yes, I am so, so happy. I remember when I saw your post in BMD, like, I dunno, months ago at this point about your book. I was like, oh, she's, this is not even her first book. This is, this is like multiple books and it's amazing. So I am very honored and excited to hear more about you and your story. So tell me.

How many kids you have, how long you've been married. Just a little bit more about your background. So I have two kids. I have a five-year-old and a 1-year-old. And they take up a lot of time and energy. Actually, I have to tell you that, you know, you mentioned the BMD group where we first [00:01:00] knew of each other, and you share so much wisdom on that group that even when it's not posts right, that, that I've written or you've written, I'll sometimes see what you've written about just doing all the things, just doing all the things and the insights you share, and they've always been.

So helpful. And so yeah, I try, I try to be present for a 5-year-old and a 1-year-old in the mornings, and the evenings and the weekends, try being the operative word. And then I have a private practice that. I work in three days a week, and then the goal is to write two days a week. So it all sounds very nice and, and, and pretty symmetrical in my head.

What ends up happening is that there are sick days and then there are things where things don't go right according to what we have planned always. And so there are a lot of shifts in those two writing days usually. . And when I, when I'm on deadline for a book or I have edits due, then sometimes, um, one of my private practice days, I'll have to shift things so that I can make a little bit more space for writing.

And when I do some segments on the news, which I, I was doing a monthly segment on NBC News in the mornings, that ends up taking up a good chunk of one of those [00:02:00] Tuesdays as well. So what I'm trying to learn and accept right now is that sometimes our life goes in seasons and every season might look different.

And what's needed from us and what's needed from the systems around us might also change in those different seasons. Oh yeah, that's, that's the end of the podcast right there. We're done everyone behalf you gave you gave the punchline. That's that is it? That is amazing. Yes. I did not say that.

She also contributes to news. Amazing. Amazing. But also real. Right. And you mentioned how much of a balancing like every, something gives on some days and things don't always go to plan. And I think just being able to release and let. The life go, how it's gonna go in this season when the kids are so young. Because it's so funny.

You, me and the person that I interviewed earlier, our kids are the same age. Like, how old are your kids? How old are kids? Five and two. So it's like, wow, we all had COVID babies. Wow. Which that on its own, I think we just get, we, we get something for [00:03:00] that every year. I'm convinced, right? Yes, yes. What a time.

Yeah. So tell me about your, the season before kids. Like what were you doing, when did you meet your husband? All that good stuff. So the season right before kids, actually we, my husband and I were just reflecting on this last night before because of that wonderful feature on our phones that gives us memories, you know, that one where it tells us?

Yeah. One year ago, five years ago, so we had one pop up from 2018, which was right before we had our first child. And I was in residency, so I was in residency from 2015 to 2019. And so it was a very, um, standard resident schedule where, you know, I was working during the day and then sometimes on evenings and weekends, whenever I wasn't working, uh, at the hospital, I was trying to work on my novel.

I ended up getting my book deal, uh, for my first two books. It came in one deal when I was a fourth year resident, so almost close to the end of my residency. So before that happened in the in-betweens, I was trying to just work on this manuscript and see what I was doing and then going backwards too.

When I met my husband, we actually met in our, [00:04:00] both of our last month of college. I always pause a little bit before I tell the meeting story because depending on if someone's a romantic comedy fan or not, they might think our story's sweet. Okay, I love it. Yeah. Yes. I'll, I'm gonna relax a little bit. So he, he was in this, uh, all South Asian acapella group at the University of Pennsylvania called Penn Masala.

Wait, what? I feel like, okay. Do you watch the This Is Us. Do you know that show? I don't, but I need to. So I need to. So I, it's gone. And, you know, they, they have reruns on Hulu. You should watch It is great. The, um, what do you call it? The person that does Composer, the composer went to Penn and was part of that acapella group.

That's how I knew that Penn had that acapella group. That is amazing. And makes me need to watch it even quicker. Yes. I love that so much. This score is amazing. Okay. That, that's incredible. I love that so much. Thank you for the recommendation too. I, so, so I've been actually listening to them [00:05:00] since middle school, they've been around since the nineties as a group, with the group members changing with, you know, people graduating and coming in, of course.

Um, but they started releasing CDs when I was in middle school. So my best friend's older sister came home one day in Atlanta where we were from, and she had the CD and she said, oh, there are these guys that, that sing these songs acapella. Here's their CDs. So I became a huge fan. And then in high school they came to Atlanta for a concert.

I went, I was. Fangirling at this concert. And then in college, I went to college in Atlanta. They came for a concert when I was actually in college. At this point, I'm still a fan and it's, it's a little bit less acceptable because I'm probably older than many of the group members. And I was a senior in college, uh, and I was also performing in the show.

I was on a dance team. And so, uh, when I was backstage, I, I passed their dressing room door. And then when they came on stage and I was sitting in the front row, I saw him right away. He made the first announcements. He was the president at the time. And I turned to my friend sitting next to me and I said, I think that guy is so cute.

And I had one of those Casio digital [00:06:00] cameras, you know, that saved the picture in a little screen. I was very cool. And, and so I took a picture of him and went backstage and introduced myself and, and we, we hit it off that night, actually. So I love that was, yeah, it's just, I don't know. It's like, depending on who I'm saying this story to, I'm like, please feel free to laugh at me.

It's totally fair. It is amazing. That is like TV Meet Cute. I love it. Thank you. Thank you. So he's my first reader for everything. He did not read fiction until we met, and now he is my first reader for anything that I write, which, which is really wonderful. Wow. Yeah. And I'm very interested in the writing history because for you to have already gotten a deal in residency, like this was a part of your life, so please tell me more about that.

So I grew up reading a lot. I really, really loved series. I loved the Babysitters Club. I loved Sweet Valley High. I loved Nancy Drew. Yes, I just, I loved these characters with girls going out and just doing things and having these really deep friendships and then just trying to figure out life along the way.

[00:07:00] And then when I was in high school and college, I just realized that there weren't as many books that had fictional books that had. Immigrants and children of immigrants as the main characters. And so in, in, and you know, just exploring things with my own friends about what we wanted to do. How do we navigate certain communication gaps with our parents?

How do we also honor the sacrifices they've made for us? And, you know, all those different things that kept coming up. I wondered, well, where's the novel that actually shows the characters going through these things? Where, where, where are those stories, those everyday stories. And so then I decided to try writing one at the end of college, and it took me 10 years and over 200 rejections from literary agents, from editors.

When I added them all up, they were. Far over 200 rejections before I ended up getting a book deal with a traditional publisher. So it was a journey. And unlike medicine, it was one of those where I learned as I went along, there wasn't a set path. Um, which, you know, I think it's so interesting to learn from both because I, I've had a hard time in both.

I've had a hard time in medical school and residency figuring things out on the go. And then, and then in the creative path, it's also been [00:08:00] a different type of learning. So I think I needed to learn how to have different relationships with failure along the way. That's really helped me honestly, more than the wins.

Yeah. Yeah. That is a part of like entrepreneurship or something that is outside of a clear path that really grows you. Yeah. Did you feel that way too? With entrepreneurship. Definitely. Yeah. Yeah. There was a lot of failure that you learned from. My coach says two of my coaches that.

Two of the greatest vehicles for personal growth is entrepreneurship and marriage. Like you grow so much having to grow a business, having to sell, which is something that, you know, a lot of doctors don't like to do. Yes. Having to, to promote a book, having to deal with all of those rejections, like there is so much growth that happens and the people that don't grow or can't grow usually don't, don't make it.

Mm-hmm. So. Um, it has definitely been an education and part of what I pass on when I coach my clients and things like that, so yeah, I definitely agree. Yeah. I imagine as a coach also, you're building from the ground up your business and then also, right. [00:09:00] All those things, so, so many pieces to it. Yeah. And 200 rejections and you just kept going.

I just, I kept thinking about what my much older than, than, you know, than present self would feel. I kept thinking, you know, if I'm in my fifties and it doesn't happen, will I regret not trying for these years? And the answer was always, yes, I will regret not trying. Yeah. If I get to a certain age that's down the line from that time, I will regret it.

So I really befriended my future regrets. I really, really got close to them. I love that. And that helped. I am very much be your future self now, and, you know, visioning and, and asking myself, am I gonna be proud of this decision? You know, like when I look back, am I going to be proud that I did this or didn't do this?

And allow that to guide me because I, I wanna look back and say, yeah, that was great. Mm-hmm. At least you tried, right? Yes. At least you went for it. That's amazing. Yes, absolutely. I love that the mapping out your future self in that way. Yeah. So true. Yeah. And it doesn't have to be like it, you're trapping yourself in anything.

[00:10:00] It is just opening up. it's really like an expansive thing to think of this future self and be like, I want her to be proud of me. Mm-hmm. And I'm proud of at least the effort. So yeah. I love that. We, I was literally thinking the word expansive when you said the word expansive. We are exactly on the same page.

Yeah. One of, uh, one of my favorite, uh, couple's therapists Esther Perel, yeah. She says, oh, sometimes a relationship or a job, it can be an expansive place and not a diminishing place. And I think sometimes it's such a helpful way to think about certain things rather than right or wrong, or good or bad, because so few things fit into those categories, but maybe expansive or diminishing can be a helpful framework.

Yeah. Yeah. I I love this conversation already. So y'all met in undergrad at the end? . And then what was their pap? Is he a physician as well? He is not. He works in tech, so he works for this company called Oura, and they make these rings that are health trackers. So he, he, he talks about health a lot.

Yeah. And then he'll ask a lot of questions. So it's really, it's [00:11:00] really fun. And his, he comes from a family of physicians and so they all say it's okay now that he, that he married one. So finally he's like, acceptable. Yeah. But he's very interested in medicine. He's really interested in fiction. So we actually end up talking about work with each other.

All the time we talk about work nonstop together, so probably the first person I talk to about everything related to any job and vice versa. That's really nice. It, it's a very special thing to have, you know, of course, in a spouse. And then I, I think being able to enjoy talking to that person every day and enjoying just being with them and, and conversing with them, I think is such a powerful thing.

Just never getting tired of talking to them. I think periods of stress happen where you might not be able to invest in one another as much as you'd like, but knowing that you love that trait in each other, I think just really is such a big thing. And I feel that way about my closest friends too. I wanna hear what's on their mind and what's making them curious and what's, what's bothering them, what's intriguing them.

And so I really think having those deep conversations is [00:12:00] such a gift. Yeah. I love that because it's the same thing with me and my husband. Like we love to talk about entrepreneurship, we love to talk about wealth building, and it's not in a, you know, when you have, you're in this phase where everything is about something practical for the house.

Yes. And for the kids. It's not even that. It's because we, we enjoy that type of thing. You know, we love working together and we've had some very rough periods that we have invested a lot of time and money into working through. Mm-hmm. So that we can continue. Enjoying being around each other. Um, and all of this is so much easier when you have a supportive partner.

It really is. It really is. Is he in medicine as well? No. He is so far out of medicine. He's like, he was in the military, he's a cybersecurity engineer. And now in acquisitions like. Way, way out. Um, but we are aligned in so many other ways. He's from the same country as I am and all this other stuff, so, yeah.

Well, what I love is also that right? People, whether it's your spouse [00:13:00] or your friends or other people you connect with, we don't have to all be doing the same thing in order to support each other and learn from one another, which I think is so amazing. I, so you were asking us about the path after. So we met an undergrad and then, and then I actually took some time off to write for mm-hmm.

A couple of years and then I went to medical school, so I was supposed to go right after. And then I think meeting him really encouraged me to take some risks for the first time in my life. Up until then, I was very much a get good grades, be on the path, don't deviate from the path, be the eldest daughter, people pleaser, and don't ever stray or cause any problems or ruffle any feathers.

And, uh, something about just us being together and, and being able to talk to him about my dreams of being a writer, I think really gave me the encouragement to actually try it for the first time. Okay. I'm glad you, you touched on it a a little bit. As the eldest daughter of Indian parents who are expecting you to do this one thing, how do they handle the writing business?

Exactly how you think they did. So it was a lot of what, why, why? I just [00:14:00] don't understand. And I see now it took time for me to see this. It really did. That this was coming from a place of fear and unknown. It was coming from a lot of uncertainty at the time. It felt like you're not supporting me when I'm changing my mind for the first time in my life.

Um, but I realized that, you know, they came from a place of survival. And so for them. Volitionally deviating from that feels incredibly scary. And so I, you know, it's been such a journey to also see my own parents as people. And I think it's been such an important one for me that I continue to have, even as I, I, I, I'm parenting, I realized, wow, they were really young , when they were doing this with, with kids the same age as my kids.

They were figuring out a lot of other things too that I've had privileges to not have to figure out. And so they were very surprised. They were very against it. And then now they're, they're. Just the biggest supporters. And so it's wonderful for this, uh, last novel, the Guilt Pill that came out. They threw a massive launch party in Atlanta and all of their friends came and it was, it felt like a mini wedding reception, [00:15:00] which if anybody's ever been to a Desi wedding, it is another level.

And so it really. It really did feel like that, but , they organized all of it. They did all of that for, for me and to celebrate that. And so they just keep reminding me that we can actually have different relationships with the same people over time. We really can. Those are evolving, growing things.

They don't actually remain fixed at all, and I think that's a really important lesson for me to keep revisiting. Yeah. And an important lesson for the doc that's listening right now because it is a big part of my coaching cause I coach physician moms. Right. And as you mentioned, as you're parenting.

Everything comes back from your childhood about Yes, your mother, about how you were raised, things that you didn't even realize were from then. So we talk a lot about relationships with parents, and my general overarching recommendation is to meet them where they are, and as you said, just realize the completely different context from which they are coming and realize that they would never have had the [00:16:00] tools that you have now, like you're coaching with me.

Like, nope, nobody, their age was. Trying to grow themselves and create their support systems or do any of these things. So giving them grace, forgiving them a little bit, and just meeting them where they are doesn't mean you have to forget if it was a traumatic experience or anything like that. Um, but like you said, you know, that level of understanding and empathy for your parents can be healing.

Yes. And then also create a whole new world for a relationship that you can have now in this new phase of your life. It's so true and you've said it so eloquently and beautifully, and I now, you know, since our kids are five and one, I. I now ask them, what was this like for you? And I'm actually learning about parts of them that existed before they became parents.

'cause they were full human beings before they had us. Can you imagine? And right, right. And so even now realizing, wait, this was a full person who then had to just hone in on responsibility and make their whole life about that, but what were [00:17:00] they like? And so even getting to know these parts of themselves that they haven't been able to revisit, it's just been a very beautiful and fulfilling thing.

Yeah. That's, that's really nice. I love that you have that and it, you know, in this phase as well, when they may be aging, they may be, um, sick. Mm-hmm. It's something that has become more evident that it is important just to know them a little bit better because they, they don't have forever and such an important reminder Yeah.

To look back and be like, wow, I, I knew this person and I knew why they made the decisions that they made, and, why they did some of the things that I may not have liked , I think it's a beautiful gift, um, for us and our children. Yes. Yes. I also, you know, you were saying about coaching physician moms, I think in medicine also, right?

We, we tend to be such caretakers, inherently, so we're always just attuned to other people's needs and what's going on. And so to be able to shift that into your own personal relationships in a way where you also feel like you're gaining in a way, I think is such an important thing. Yeah. Oh, I love this conversation so much.

Okay, [00:18:00] me too. So you, you took your time off to write. Mm-hmm. And then how was the transition from that to medical school? It was very hard. It was very hard for me. It felt like I left to this world of creativity and open-ended thinking and being able to live in gray areas, and then I immediately had to go into the rigor of medical school, which I knew was going to be there.

It was just, I think, a harsher transition that I would've expected. When I look back, I used to have a lot of shame over feeling this way, and now I actually wish more people openly talked about this. I found medical school to be very difficult. I found it to be very difficult, and there were times when I wondered.

Is this for me? Because I don't know if the way I'm thinking really aligns to the way that's required for this system. Then when I started learning about the origins of the medical system and how actually it doesn't fit a lot of people Yeah. Who are in it, um, that really helped me, I think with, you just used the word context and I think that's such a, such an applicable word in different ways that the context in which we're learning and who's telling us what success is and where we need to be focusing, all of those things [00:19:00] really, really matter.

So I found when I got to the clinical rotations, which. At my school, like many other schools, it was third year and fourth year. When we got to do that, I, I had a much better time being able to engage with people directly. And I found that my favorite part of every day was when I could sit with a patient, learn their story, if their family members were there, learn about them through their family members viewpoints.

And it was just so, it was so rewarding and I felt like something I could do for hours. And I did my psychiatry rotation last that year and learned that that's a huge part of what we do is we try to learn people's stories and we try to get as much information about them as possible and, and really try to hold this space for them to share more about their story or where they're at.

And so then I ended up choosing that as my field and residency. I absolutely loved because I felt like I found my people, everybody who I was in my class with, uh. Also had the same curiosity and love. Yeah. For learning about people and why they did the things they did, what motivates them, what defeats them, all those things.

And the program, I went to Mount Sinai, Beth Israel in New York. It was very therapy heavy and it's training. Mm. And [00:20:00] so I got training in cognitive behavioral therapy, family systems therapy. Yeah. Um, so many different types of therapy that I just found fascinating that I finally felt like I found my place.

But I only say that because if anybody here is listening and they're somewhere on the path medically. Where things don't feel like they fit, that doesn't mean it's, that's the end of it. You're still a physician no matter what you go forward to do. And there are many, many routes. Maybe there are even some that, that haven't come on your radar yet.

Um, I really did think that there was only one set path when I was in medical school, and that, that path maybe wasn't for me, but I, I was happy to be proven wrong. Yeah, no, I think that's really important. And you know, I don't talk a lot about medical school. It's all a blur. My medical right. It was a long time ago, but it was a lot of fun, um, where I was, and I don't remember feeling e xactly that way. I, you know what? I remember being like, do y'all expect me to do clinical medicine and study at the same time? Like, how can you do that? And then I was like, but nobody told me that. That's what [00:21:00] residents, that's what medicine is. You have to continue to learn. I feel like whoever's listening, if you're a medical student, FYI, that is, that is your future.

Um, that's pretty much the only thing I remember from medical school. But it is an important, reminder that. If it doesn't feel right, it may not be you, it may be the system. It may be that you haven't found it yet. So I love that. You know, when the last rotation you are like, ah, yes, this is it. Um, psych was my least favorite.

Really? Being on that locked ward, I just, I felt so uncomfortable. Oh yeah. That, yeah. Yeah. That, that's fair. Of course, of course. It's a very, I mean, it's a very distinct environment. Absolutely. Yeah. It really is. It is. Yeah. Okay, so during all this time, your husband is in tech, you are in residency, and you get your book deal.

Mm-hmm. How was it managing the book deal and training? So it's funny because I was so cool and [00:22:00] was choosing to write when I wasn't at the hospital and to working shifts, having to actually write and turn it into someone felt very gratifying. I thought, wow, I'm not just giving myself homework, it's actually going to someone.

And now I have, um, in traditional publishing. You typically get an agent, a literary agent, and then the literary agent actually then sells the book to an editor at a publishing house. And so once the literary agent is starting to speak to the editors, the author's actually taking a side seat for a little bit while those conversations are happening.

Then when editors show interest, they come and they speak to the interested editors. But at the end of all that, if, if, if a book deal comes out of it. The author now has an agent, an editor, a marketing director, and a publicist. And so you kind of go from doing this thing on your own for however long, and you now have people who are invested in it.

So I found it to be a very gratifying process. The publishing timelines are also, it couldn't be more different from medicine in the sense that I got the book deal in 2018 for the first book to [00:23:00] come out in 2020. So there's usually a two year span between when you sign the contract to when the book will come out just because of how book schedules are done.

And so it actually felt, you know, so like there was so much good in that way. I was like, wait, why am I not working on something every day? It's very interesting how, I was just also telling my husband this last night, there's so much synchrony conversation, which I love that the way. Medical training makes you work and, and, and kind of teaches you how you work in different environments.

I think no matter what you do after that, it sticks with you. Yeah. It just changes you in a way. Yes. And so he'll tell me, he'll say, your baseline for taking a break is not in the right place. Like right. And I'm like, but, but for years there's no lunch break and there's no this, and you work nights and weekends and there's no, and you know, there's no pee break, there's no anything.

There's no any. Right. You hold it in. You learn how to disconnect from your body. Yes. And so it's so interesting seeing how that might manifest in other parts of your life and even other parts of another job. Yeah. Um, and for me, that definitely happened with publishing where I found it to [00:24:00] be a place where I could slow down a little bit, and then I, I felt very efficient and eager to move on to the next thing.

But, but it just works on a different timeline. It's completely different type of work. Yeah. So it, medicine I think has just really changed the way I work overall. Yeah. So you have the deal. When did you all actually get married?

We got married in 2015, so we got married between, uh, in the last year of medical school. Right. One year or one month after medical school graduation. Gotcha. Okay. So, so got married and then started intern year, a month later. So all of those things, and we were actually long distance, 'cause I was in medical school in Georgia.

We had been living in New York and then I moved to New York for residency. So. Gotcha. My first, my first year as an intern was also. Newlywed living together for the first time. A lot of, a lot of big changes, but being able to even come home at the end of a long day at work and and spend time together just was really, we never took it for granted.

Really. Yeah. So did you choose to delay having a baby or how did that. Come, I did wanna wait till the later [00:25:00] in residency. Yeah. And I was actually one of those people who if I was told, Hey, you can do this much later, I would've probably said, okay, alright. Like, let's do that, let's do that. Um, I, I knew that I wanted to feel like I got some momentum with writing and with doctoring before going forward with that.

And then it honestly just happened a lot quicker than we anticipated. So, uh, almost the end of my fourth year residency is when. I got pregnant, uh, the first time. And then, and then as you know, of course, so our ba first one was born December, 2019, and then I was planning to start my private practice in March of 2020.

Yeah. And then, you know, everything, everything happened for everyone then. Yeah. So, so life, life as we knew it changed for the first year and a half of our, of our son's life. Wow. So, I'm very interested in the choice that you made to go directly into private practice. Can you talk a little bit about that?

So I knew that I was so interested in therapy and in for us when we were doing therapy training. In residency, we were assigned a [00:26:00] supervisor, and my supervisor is incredible and she had psychoanalytic training, and so she encouraged me to do a psychoanalytic fellowship. There was a special fellowship being offered that.

Residents could do while they were in residency. So I also did that my fourth year of residency here in New York, and it was wonderful, and I knew that's what I wanted to do. So then I began speaking to her about what it would mean to start a private practice and what, you know, just have that one-on-one relationship where I meet with someone once or twice a week every week.

Yeah. And so she told me that, you know, once you get it started, I will start referring people to you. So there were already a couple people that I thought I could start with that, you know, the three month postpartum mark. And then I, my plan was to keep kind of going up from there. At the time I was also teaching narrative medicine once a month to interns.

So it's this new branch? Yeah, it's this new branch. Uh, started by a woman named Dr. Rita, Sharon at Columbia University, where she basically thought of using literature and art. Essays, um, poetry, so, so different forms of art in order to teach clinical [00:27:00] concepts. So, for example, one of the classes I teach, we look at, uh, a Van Goghs portrait of the bandaged ear, and then we look at Ed Edward Munch's The Scream and we look at what, you know, both of them side by side and individually.

And I ask psychiatry interns, what does this bring up in you? Does this remind you of a clinical encounter of yourself? And it really leads to these. Fun and enriched discussions that I don't know if they would take place if we were not looking at art. And so it's a way to combine clinical medicine and art.

So I was doing that at the time as well. So my plan was to kind of ease into that. And then because of the COVID to 19 pandemic, um, that, that just didn't start for some time. So then I had a very, very small virtual practice for some time, and then, and then it grew just later and slower than anticipated.

Wow. Okay. That is so interesting. I've never heard about that. Okay. Uh, so how was your pregnancy? Birth, postpartum? Oh, that, if you are not watching this on YouTube, that was a face. So tell me about that face. [00:28:00] I had hyperemesis gravidarum for both of my pregnancies, so I began feeling nauseous and. And vomiting pretty early on.

And it lasted until birth. Um, for my first pregnancy, because I was still in residency, I hadn't told anybody I was pregnant. And that was when New York still had plastic bags. And so I would actually carry a plastic bag with me, uh, like a stash of plastic bags with me on the units, and I would then throw open a plastic bag and then, and then come back as if nothing happened.

And so I just think that, right, like we go through so much when our bodies are. Going through things. We're also carrying so much on different levels. But looking back on that, I wish I'd opened up to more people about that. 'cause I was in a very supportive program and I had amazing coworkers and an incredible program director.

And I know if I said that, you know, I'm struggling, I'm vomiting around the clock. I know they would've stepped in. I think I just felt like, like you were saying earlier about doing all the things, I felt like I almost had to prove something to myself that I can do it. I can do it. This is not gonna hold me back.

This is not gonna hold me down. Listening to my body, I think was a journey that, that [00:29:00] I then learned because of, because of having kids that, that, that is a non-negotiable. It's not something that we can keep ignoring and not doing. Oh, sorry. Oh, thank you. Thank you. I don't feel like we ever forget, you know what I mean?

We don't forget. I don't forget it lives in there forever. And, and it's bad enough to have it, but for it to last the entire time. 'cause you're, you're just like waiting. It's like, is it gonna be done? You're just waiting. Is it gonna be done? Wow. Okay. But how was birth? Better Birth was, birth was great.

Uh, wonderful, wonderful OB and it was just, just wonderful. And then postpartum was tough, you know, I found that becoming a mom, going through all those changes physically, hormonally, emotionally, all the changes you have with the people around you too, that that really took more of a toll than I think I would've imagined.

And there were a lot of things where I felt like I wasn't given a heads up. I don't know by who. I don't know who was gonna gimme this heads up. Right, right. I thought, where's my memo? I thought there would be a memo on my desk for popping up in the air in front of me saying, by the way, yeah, sleep deprivation might bring out the worst in you.

[00:30:00] And, um, but again, I, I see now how parts of residency made me feel like I could do it. I thought I've, I've been sleep deprived before. I've been tired before. Come on. Yep. Right? Yeah. I was like, I'm, I'm an ob, GYN. I know what fatigue is. Oh my gosh. Like I help people through these things. Come on. I could do it.

It's fine. Totally. It's so, yeah, and then it, it is, and then it really isn't. It really, really isn't. And so I think I would've given myself more permission to rest and to take that time and let it unfold the way it was supposed to. But I also have this, um, this research that I did actually for my novel.

'cause my novel has a postpartum CEO actually as the main character. Yeah. But what I found in my research was that. Women who are high functioning and type A, they tend to actually have to grapple with a lot when they become moms because they think that hard work is just going to and over functioning is going to lead to all the answers.

But babies are unpredictable. Yeah. And they're [00:31:00] uncertain. And sleep deprivation isn't good on anybody. So yeah, I think sometimes, right? They hold these rigid standards. I definitely did, yes. To what's possible during the postpartum time. And so that was, that first pregnancy and postpartum I think was a huge.

Learning journey. So I just put it all into a book. You know, it's like very, I mean, just put all the pain into, it's fine. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you mentioned strain on the relationships. How did that manifest in your life? So my husband did not have paternity leave for the first one. And so I remembered, and he, you know, also was actually sleep deprived because he wouldn't let me gate keep.

And what I mean by that is that I would tell him, you have to work in the morning. You, you have to work. Let me, let me just do the night stuff. And he'd say, no, you're up all day. So he was actually. Interesting looking back that I even told him like, no, you gotta, you have things to do. I'm doing this. And so he didn't have leave.

And so he felt a lot of guilt actually for not being able to be there more. And then I felt, to be honest, very envious looking at him because he was wearing the same clothes. [00:32:00] And he was going to the same job and he was talking to adults and he, I remember there was one night he went out with coworkers and he came back and he was like, it was great.

And I was like, what do you mean? It was great? How dare you? Like, don't tell me about that. I'm not interested. No, what do you mean? And so it was, it was definitely, I think. A huge adjustment for both of us in so many different ways. And then all of what's left over is going into this vulnerable being who needs you.

So learning how to prioritize time for ourselves as a couple, it's something that we still actually revisit because I, I think it's not, it's an ongoing process. Yes. It's not something that I think we have figured out. We actually are like, well, as kids needs change, we also need to change how we can keep investing in one another and showing up for one another.

And I will say it takes, for us at least, it's taken a lot of active, active planning, a lot of prioritization, a lot of intention. I think if we just left it to figure it out, I don't think that it would've gone well for, for either of us because it was something we had to get ahead of proactively. Yes.[00:33:00]

And I, I think that is good recommendation for anyone listening because a lot of it, it's something else that we aren't taught about, about how important it is to make time for each other. Because you are told, you are conditioned to give it all to the baby. Yes. And then the husband is just off the side dealing with his own things in his own way.

And depending on the relationship, how he was raised, there's the contention there, there's the, um, the default parent, there's, it's a setup for. A contentious relationship and mm-hmm. Looking around and being like, what happened to my marriage? You know, so. Absolutely. It's, you definitely have to talk about it.

Mm-hmm. Like, I recommend just talk about what the expectations are, talk about all of it, and then as you said, be intentional and get ahead of it, because you'll look around and be like, I don't recognize myself or you or us. Yes. What happened? Where did we go? Yeah. And for our second child, he had paternity leave for three months.

Nice. And we learned from all the things the first time and, and so [00:34:00] we also were able to get more support around help at night. And then things went in the house, and then we both were home for eight to 12 weeks. And so. It was a night and day experience from the first time. So, you know, we were talking about systems before, but the systems when it relates to parental leave and yeah, other forms of support, I think also plays such a big role in how that period of time is gonna go for people.

Yeah. So tell me about like the two situations, because one was COVID, I mean, you weren't, you were a little bit further along on the postpartum Yeah. Journey. Yes. Three months. Yep. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So what kind of support did y'all have, if any, at all for the first? So we actually lived with my parents. So I actually went home to Atlanta to give birth.

Uh, and this is before of course anything happened lockdown wise. And so I went in November. Um, the month before our son was born and I gave birth in Atlanta and then the plan was to come back when my, you know, fourth trimester was done. And then we just ended up staying for a year and a half. Wow. Wow. So we were in a house with my parents and my [00:35:00] grandparents and our baby, and my siblings and my parents took full-time care of my grandparents.

And so it was a very, very interesting time where there was so much caregiving going on. In different ways. And there were times when I saw my mom just making different meals for different generations of people just around the clock. And so I felt taken back to parts of my own childhood where I just saw her working Yes.

And giving around the clock. It just happened all over again. And then I saw her doing it, you know, at a, at a different age. And so that was definitely tough on me. And then of course, I, I regressed into an angsty teenager. Randomly without any warning. So I'd be holding my infant and then I'd be like, why are you telling me what to eat?

Yeah. Why are you telling me this Indian dish with Fenugreek is gonna make me heal? Please stop. Right. And so, I mean, I think we were all, and, and then we didn't have any contact with people outside of that, so we were just seeing each other in the house all the time. And of course that was such an incredible privilege, you know, compared to so many people who were in complete real isolation, especially with young kids.

And, and, and even without people who were just in that. [00:36:00] That was incredible and, and what's also true is that. We just saw different versions of each other. I mean, throughout that year and a half, it really was a time where we, we truly saw all sides of one another. And I think, I think we're all better for that because, um, I really learned the meaning of what does it mean to have people show up for you when you're feeling your worst and then you doing the same for them.

I mean, I think that time was hard for everyone. Yeah. Oh, that's a lot of people, man. It was a lot of people. I watched a lot of TV shows curled up in my room when I was pumping. God. And that's, I talk about that all the time about the isolation of postpartum, even when you're surrounded by people. Yes, yes.

because are your needs being acknowledged? Like do people realize that you're struggling? Mm-hmm. Are they just focused on the baby? It can feel isolating and then you're like, I also don't wanna talk to you. I just wanna be alone. Absolutely. I definitely felt. To me, in the place I was in, I felt like everybody cared about the baby.

So there were many times where I felt, what about me? What about me? And that's where I think [00:37:00] having people who really get it, who really get it and are looking out for you, I think it's everything, no matter whether you're postpartum or whether you're in another season of your life. But knowing that there are people who are just thinking about you, I think goes such a long way.

Yes. So you can feel supported and seen. Yeah, totally. So talk to me about the difference. What did you have for the second baby? They call. So for the sec, so for the second baby, oh, I actually didn't know if I even wanted a second baby, so I should actually say that first. Oh, tell me about that. I thought, yes.

Yeah, I thought after that experience, our, um, our older child also, he had a lot of health problems. His stomach was at the zeroth percentile when he was born, and so, oh. He struggled with feeding a lot. He struggled with sleeping, I imagine. 'cause he was probably very hungry. Right. And, and so he just, he went through a lot and, um, we felt so awful for him that after that year and a half was done and we moved back to New York, we actually both said, I don't, I don't know if we can do any version of this again.

I, I think we wanna just put all of our energy into being there for him and, and supporting him. He grew up then out of those things, and now he's the sweetest, [00:38:00] most fun boy or like, we just love hanging out with him. And so I always tell people I kind of needed to forget COVID parenting before even considering doing it again.

So in 2023, I told my husband, you know what? I actually can be open to this. Maybe we can see if this works out. And then it worked out the next month. It was like, it talked, I said a year and then was a month. Right, and, and so, so then I got pregnant much quicker than anticipated the second time, and it was, again, I think knowing what to expect helps a lot.

So even though I had, uh, I was having nausea and vomiting again, I knew it was coming. And that actually just made it a little bit less painful and frustrating. So that helped a lot. And then we saved up money for things. So we said, you know, let's allocate X number of dollars for a night nurse if we can, if we can have that.

And then for someone to come, you know, help us during the day. My husband got benefits from work at home to have someone actually come help us at home for the first weeks as well. Which was [00:39:00] amazing. His company did that. And then we both took leave. So I didn't take any leave the first time. 'cause I was thinking, I'm working for myself.

I was also on book deadline the first time, so Right. And I didn't feel like I could, and this time I said, no, I'm gonna, I'm gonna take time and do it. So I think we made a lot of intentional choices that made it. Right. And then there wasn't, there wasn't a pandemic, so, right. So friends could come visit and then they could leave.

Right. Family could come visit and then they could leave. I say that because both parts are important. Um, so yeah, it was just, it was just different in, in every single way. But yeah, I, I'm so grateful for that because I think sometimes when we go through a tough time, of course, you know, we say time heals and all that, but I think sometimes we also need positive experiences to fill that space, to show us that too, if that makes sense.

That Yeah, it does. That it can be better. And so that was definitely what, what having the second time around felt like. Yeah. Yeah. And I, I usually don't ask this and you don't have to answer. I'll cut it out, but are you all done? Yes, we are. So, it's so funny, I feel like you were you in our house because [00:40:00] just over the weekend they were, you know, when the, when your kids are in a really good place, you know, when everybody's just behaving so sweetly and, and it's the best possible scenario and that's when your brain starts thinking, oh, this is, is really that much.

And then, and then of course by that evening I was like, now I, I, I think I know my limits now. I think I know my limits. We are, I, I we are, you know, it's so interesting 'cause I was someone who didn't even know I wanted kids at all, and now I have two. And so it's just been such a journey and, and being open and, and knowing that it's okay to change your mind and knowing that, right, like it's okay to make decisions when you have more information and you feel like you have a more solid ground to even make choices from.

Um, these are just things I, I was never told or advised about growing up. So. Definitely. Yeah. Those are all the things that I tell my clients. She is giving you all free game here. Yes. 'cause the, the biggest one that you said is, I, the way I say it is you have the right to change your mind like it is a right.

Yes. Yes. 'cause as physicians, as women, yeah. We are along this path. This [00:41:00] is the path. This is what you're supposed to do. And if you do wanna change your mind, there's this like internal conflict of, well, what will people think? And this isn't right. And I spent so much time and invested so much in all of these things, but you have the right to change your mind.

Yes. And wait and see if you want to do X, Y, Z. Mm-hmm. You know? So I love that you said that. Yeah, and even get more information. You know, I've had friends who, when they got more information about what their fertility rate looked like, yeah. They even said, oh, actually even getting that information helped me decide the timing of what things needed to be or what.

So sometimes even getting more information and, you know, even approaching your own counsel of people you trust can help us with those things. Yeah, and you, and you don't have to figure out everything alone. It's just Oh, that's so true. It's better to ask people and ask for help and ask for advice.

Something else that we are trained that is not, is not good, you know? Oh, totally. We're told, figure it out. Just look it out. Figure it out. Figure it out. Why are you asking me? Exactly. So it's so many different ways. [00:42:00] Like it's amazing that you started off saying that at the beginning because residency this.

Type of training that we do teaches us so many bad habits, so many things that set us up for burnout in different ways in life, and we really need to unlearn it because in general, the system, as you said, was not meant for women of childbearing, age, or women at all. Yes. Right? Yes. So we just need to make it our own.

It's so true. This might sound like the most random example, I promise it's related, but I will actually often ask someone in therapy if they're a physician, I'll say, do you know when you have to go to the bathroom? Do you listen? Yeah. And a lot of times the answer is no. I just, I just hold it and I can, yeah.

Right. The most basic, basic thing, because we're taught to ignore and numb and disconnect from bodies because that's what the job requires. So that is what it requires. Mm-hmm. I, I distinctly remember my very first client texted me to celebrate that she paused before they called her to the OR to go pee.

And it [00:43:00] was. Big deal that she chose herself in that way and said, you know what? I know they need me. I'm gonna be there for a while. I need to pee. Let me go. Wow. And we had to, we celebrated that. That is, I mean, that's amazing. I mean, it's also sad, right? Right. The fact that it is amazing is, yeah, I, I, yeah.

Totally. Totally. It's both. Oh my gosh. Okay. So this has been absolutely amazing and I've really enjoyed this conversation. I feel like we could go on and on forever, but I do want to hear more about this last book. Tell me everything, how was it inspired?

Thank you so much. So the guilt pool was inspired actually by a few friends who told me before I had, uh, my first baby, they said, you're gonna feel really guilty and just, just don't even expect not to. It's gonna happen. So they said it in this very inevitable type of way. And then when they began opening up to me more about their guilt, they would tell me about the things they couldn't do for themselves because they felt too guilty.

So [00:44:00] one friend said. My husband said, go take a solo trip, but I just feel too bad. I just can't, I can't do it. And another friend said, oh, he said, go to the go do, go get your nails done. And I feel, I feel too guilty. So it's always the guilt. And then, um, in my private practice during the day, sometimes I will give medications to help with some symptoms.

And so I began thinking, what if I could give them a pill that just turned off their guilt for hours at a time? Not days. Not months. But what about something for just hours? What would my friends do? What would they give themselves permission for? So then. I got inspired by the tech world that my husband's in, and I've always been very fascinated by founders.

I think they just to build something from the ground up that didn't exist before. Yeah. I am blown away by people who can do that. I think it takes so much tenacity, so yeah. I had the idea of a founder who, who comes across her mentor in the, in the founder, in the tech space. This woman named Liz Anderson, who's in pharmaceuticals, and the Liz tells my main character, Maya, I have this secret pill.

It gets rid of guilt in women. I think it's what you need to give yourself a leg up during this really busy time because Maya is. Three weeks postpartum when [00:45:00] she Yeah. Meets Liz. And so the book follows Maya's journey, just being able to selectively turn off her guilt as she's postpartum, trying to raise funding for her company.

And then she finds out what, what happens when you keep doing that? And, you know, does guilt exist for a reason? And is there a way that we actually lose who we are a little bit when we feel too, too little guilt, um, for too long. Oh, and so she, her, her story goes into just a journey of her unraveling and then finding her way back to herself.

Oh, this sounds amazing. Oh, thank you. I'll send you a copy. I'll send you a copy. Yes. I'm so excited. Yes. So tell me where can they find the book? And are you, you're not still doing press, are you? Because I know I started doing like some tours and stuff, so I'm doing, I did a book tour in April and May, and then I'm actually gonna do another round.

My paperback is coming out in February. Ah, so it came out in hardcover in April, and then the paperback ISS coming out in February. So I'll do another tour for that and it can be found wherever books are sold. So I love indie in indie bookstores, and so I'm always a fan of supporting local independent bookstore and ordering it from [00:46:00] there.

But yeah, sold wherever bookstore, so wherever you like to buy books. Amazing. Amazing. Thank you. So are you planning to continue writing as you continue your medical practice? Yes. So I am turning in the synopsis and, um, chapter summaries for my next one tomorrow, and it's about, it's also speculative again, but it's about a woman who learns that perimenopause helps her access her rage.

And oh my what that unleashes in her. So it's an exploration of feminine rage. That is amazing. So if, now that I learned how book publishing works, yeah. So I'm expecting 2027, is that right? Likely yes. Yes. We'll find out more in the next month, hopefully, but yeah, it's usually about two, two years. Yeah.

Sometimes it gets pushed up if they think it's ready or there's space. Um, yeah, within the market. And so, but likely in two years. And then I'm also working on my first nonfiction book. It's about being overwhelmed. So it's for everyone who was told to wake [00:47:00] up earlier as the advice to do more, but they just can't possibly do that 'cause they're already sleep deprived enough.

So right there only too many hours in the day. Oh my gosh. I, so this sounds amazing. I'm so glad. Oh, thank you. Able to, to talk and to help people where they can, you know, besides your book, where can they find out more about you? Are you on social media, all those things? Oh, thank you. I'm at, uh, on Instagram @saumyajdave, and then.

Yeah, I think that's the main place. And my website is saumyadave.com. Otherwise, I'm, I've tried a couple TikTok videos. Are you on TikTok? So I used to be, yeah. So it's not, it's a little push and pull, but maybe we don't go there. That is hilarious. Okay. This has been absolutely amazing. We are so aligned on so many different things.

Um, so now I definitely have to read your book and I feel like your patients are well served with, you know, just, just the way that you speak about certain things. I can tell the care that is there and the therapy background shines through. Um, so I I, I'm very glad that we were able to do this. [00:48:00] Oh my gosh.

Me too. And I feel the same way about your clients. Really? That's incredible. They're very lucky. Thank you. This was great. Of course. Let me know, is there anything else that you want to share with our listeners before you go? I think that spaces like your podcast just create a, a feeling of community and feeling less alone.

And so I think spreading the word about that can just go such a long way for anybody else who's feeling like, am I the only one? Or where are my people who get what I'm going through? So I would just say, you know, people, listen to this episode or any of your other episodes to just share the love because I think we need more of that right now.

Yes. I did not ask her to say that, doc, so. No, you didn't. You didn't. I was thinking it. Seriously. Yes, it's true. And leave a five star review while you're up there. Yes, yes. They help. Yes, exactly. Um, say how wonderful, uh, Dr. Saumya is, because she's right. I will see you all on the next episode of Stethoscopes and Strollers.

Bye.