The 3-PART Framework to Boost Your Legal Team's Success

Are you struggling to develop, retain, and maximize your law firm's talent? 

Join Tyler Dolph, Anthony Karls, and JP VanderLinden of Rocket Clicks as they break down the revolutionary 3-part framework that transforms average performers into exceptional legal practitioners.

By the end of this podcast, you’ll discover how to identify and nurture top talent, the key employee engagement strategies to keep them accountable based on set ascension plans, and the proven methods to train leaders from within—so your lawyers grow as your firm exponentially expands. 

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📝 Schedule a FREE Family Law Firm Audit: https://rocketclicks.com/schedule-a-family-law-quick-audit/ 

CHECK OUT THESE RELATED EPISODES:

Cultivating Success: Employee Engagement Strategies
https://youtu.be/NhjQNBzSyBY 

Voice Dynamics: Enhancing Team Performance
https://youtu.be/v_kHSKGTzpE

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📄 CHAPTERS

00:00 - Cracking the Code of High-Performance Teams

02:27 - How to Master Team Alignment to Set Clear Employee Expectations

09:27 - Training Average Performers into Exceptional Practitioners

16:46 - The Career Transformation Playbook

24:24 - Building a Talent Machine for Your Law Firm

29:04 - The Traps Your Law Firm Needs to Avoid So You Don’t Kill Team Potential

Curious to discover your personalized roadmap to scaling a law firm, no matter where you are in the business?

Follow these steps:

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Chapters

• 0:00 Cracking the Code of High-Performance Teams
• 2:27 How to Master Team Alignment to Set Clear Employee Expectations
• 9:27 Training Average Performers into Exceptional Practitioners
• 16:46 The Career Transformation Playbook
• 24:24 Building a Talent Machine for Your Law Firm
• 29:04 The Traps Your Law Firm Needs to Avoid So You Don’t Kill Team Potential

Transcript

0:00

Are you struggling to get the most out of your team? It might not be a hiring problem. It could be a development problem. Learn how to identify where your team members are in their growth journey, and what to do next to boost productivity and retention. Welcome to the Revenue Roadmap podcast, where we explore proven strategies to help law firm owners grow revenue, increase profit, and build stronger, more productive teams. If you're looking to drive better performance from your team while scaling your firm at the same time, you are in the right place. My name is Tyler Dolph, I am the CEO of Rocket Clicks, a full service digital marketing firm that specializes in helping exclusively family law firms attract more clients and convert more leads. Joining me today is Anthony Karls and JP VanderLinden. Anthony is the co-founder of our law firm, Sterling Lawyers, a 32 attorney law firm. And he's also the president of our agency, Rocket Clicks. Tony brings a wealth of leadership experience and scaling law firms and building high performance teams and we are very excited to have him. Additionally, JP VanderLinden is a thought leader in operational excellence and talent development and thankfully is our head of operations and client services here at the agency. Today we're going to talk through a powerful team management model, which is called the Align, Develop and Transition framework. We're going to unpack the three phases of each team member cycle. And then how you can apply this to your staff at your law firm today. Okay. So guys today we're talking about leadership development. One of our favorite topics here at Rocket Clicks. And within our law firm Sterling, we've spent a lot of time growing and developing, team members, associates, paralegals, attorneys. And we have a few action items that we are going to review today. We are talking about Align, Develop and Transition framework in family law firms. JP, I want to get us started with the align part of this framework. Give us some background, on this particular portion and how it applies. Yeah. So we believe that team members are always in one of three phases. They're either in Align, Develop, or Transition, and it works in a cycle. So you're never not in them. And you're always in the process of working through the three parts. And so align is basically a good starting point to think about this is when you're stepping into a new opportunity. So this could be a new role, like an external hire coming in. And they're joining the company. They're joining the team, and they're joining a new position that could be an internal promotion as well. Or a move into a new seat. This could also be a place where you're just you're stepping into something you haven't done before. You know, if you're working with a different client type or a different type of work. So basically any place where you're stepping into net new, you're going to be in that aligned phase because you have to figure out what does good look like. How do I deliver on it? What are the expectations of me? And you're very much just figuring stuff out. You're probably going to do stuff wrong. You're probably asking a lot of questions. And that's okay, because that's the expectation for that aligned phase. A lot of new guy energy in the align phase. Tony, when we're thinking about our clients, our law firm clients. You know, if we're doing our job and helping them grow their firm, they're going to have to hire. They're going to have to grow and scale their internal team. How have you dealt with that at Sterling, and what were some of the early lessons when bringing on new teammates in the aligned phase? One of the biggest ones is be patient. you know, I've made a lot of mistakes in my career here, where you bring on someone new, you're excited about them. They interviewed well, and you're like, “oh, this person is going to solve my problems.” And then they come in. And actually, you ultimately realize all the problems in your business are a result of you as a business owner. But you don't think that, at first you think I have this problem and somebody else will come in and solve it. But what actually happens is they come in and then they have similar problems because you're the problem. And for me, one of those one of those problems was I wanted to go fast. So everybody was going to be super confident. If they weren't super confident, they were stupid. And, it was because I wasn't doing a good job aligning. So, like, what it looks like is, you know, create good expectations and onboarding. Onboarding isn't just a one onboarding. It's probably the way we think about it here at Rocket Clicks. The way that we, you know, think about it from an attorney onboarding perspective is it's really a 30, 60, 90 cadence. So what do we want you to really get in the first 30 days. What are our overall expectations and things that you're going to start showing us. You know how to do in the next, next 60 and then by 90. What do we expect from you. And like really setting firm foundations, having clarity so that there isn't the opportunity for team members to create this, like mistrust and like weird expectations where they think they're meeting expectations of leaders not saying anything. So now they're frustrated with the new team member. And now you have this, like weird relationship where we're not really communicating well. So patience I think is really important. Clear expectations is really important. Kind of a stepping back and really asking like, what do I really want this new person to be able to do? In the first 30, first 60, first 90 days? Love it. And what I hear you guys saying is that this this phase it's not an option. All of your new team members are going to go through this aligned phase, and you can absolutely make it better by improving your hiring process, ensuring you know what you're getting, setting good expectations. But the fact of the matter is, is you're going to have team members in this phase. And when they're in that phase, being able to create alignment and leverage the 30, 60, 90 day framework will help improve the phase and help them move on to phase number two. Yeah. I mean, just JP's got a really good anecdote here that he says all the time about, top performers, average performers and bottom performers, and the speed at which the speed at which you as leader and that that as a person can, or team member, accelerate. I don't know if you wanted to share that, JP. How you how you think about that? Oh, yeah. I mean, you're going to you're going to have some percentage of people and they're your top guys. Your 20%, they're going to succeed kind of in spite of whatever you do. Like they're just they're just they're driven. They're high competence. They're going to they're going to figure it out. Right. They're just going to succeed kind of regardless. Probably your top 20%, right. They're just going to be successful. They're going to work in any environment. And leaders convince themselves that they're good because they have that 20%. They're like, “look, I worked with Jim like Jim did great!” It's like, yeah, Jim was going to succeed whether you helped him or not. Right? Jim was he's just going to do it then. Like kind of your middle 60% is like, they will succeed if you set them up for success, if you give them clear expectations, if you help them with their confidence, if you give them proper, you know, guidance as they get going, give them feedback loops, steer them in the right direction, pair them up with people who they can shadow on. Give them enough ramp time. Don't just chuck them in the deep end with no floaties and hope it works like those group. If you if you set them up, you can get success there, and then you're getting 80% of your folks working and like that's when you feel really good. And then you got 20% who it kind of doesn't matter what you do. Like they're just not going to perform well. Right. And like part of this process with this aligned phase is that like you figure out from enough data points, enough bringing people on. Like, if you only ever onboard one person every like year, you have no idea if they're good. You have no comparison point. But if you bring on, you know, a person every month or three people every month, you start to get enough things. You go, “oh, oh, I see a pattern here.” Normally this is how fast people take this on. This is how many rounds of revision it takes. This is how long it takes them to learn. This one's an outlier. There's a problem here. And because if you think about that as like a 30, 60, 90, like you're staying really close to them in that phase. And so as a result of that, you know, when they're on or off track, you're giving them the feedback. You see what they're performing correctly. And then you're able to act accordingly. Tony, you've got, you got a comment about, you know, kind of micromanagement here, which I think is probably applicable for folks. Yeah. So we're just back on your point, that first group, that first 20%, they'll succeed faster than they would originally because you set them up well. That middle 60, they'll exceed during the normative timeline. And you'll find out who your bottom 20 are. So you don't have to, like, continue to waste time investing in that group that isn't they don't actually want to align. They don't actually want these expectations. They don't actually want accountability. It's really important in this face to like, how well are you doing this? Because it sets you up for success and mitigates loss and helps secure your investment of new team members. I love it. I think that's there's so much value in your point in that. Like, your high performers will succeed even in spite of you. But if you can help them, they'll be even more successful, faster. And then if you can help that middle average group be successful, then you know you're crushing it. You're winning big time. Okay, so we've figured out the align phase. You know, you got to set a solid foundation. You got to set great expectations. JP what happens after? Yeah. And so you're going to go through that alignment period. It's, you know, varying length as you're getting to that new position. And then you move into development. Right. So development is where most people spend most of the time. And this is the place where you are building your competence, by, you know, getting better at your craft, refining your skill, getting more experiences and delivering value. This is probably most of your team. Most of your team is in this develop phase where they're, you know, they're getting better at the seat they're in. They're not taking on a new seat. They're not leaving their seat. They're in the same place, and they're just getting better by building reps, by, you know, improving the process, by getting more experiences. And so this is where, again, most people sit here for a really long time. And that's not a bad thing. Like, that's what it should be. And so yeah, that's kind of the develop phase that you, you're going to see most of your team setting in And majority of time. Right. This is 80% of our lives is sitting in. Hey, I'm in this seat. I'm doing a good job. I'm going to try and continue to get better, until something new comes along. Until what's next happens, right? So I guess my question is, how do you keep them motivated? How do you continue to help a team member in this kind of normal state?“Hey, you're on our team. We're keeping you employed. We appreciate what you're doing.” How do we continue to push them? So if you look at nature, there is no such thing as, staying the same. There's no plateau. You are constantly in a state of either growing or decaying. And so if you think, oh, I'm just kind of staying put, like the stagnation is actually decay. And so, the reason it's called the develop phase and not the hang out, do the same thing phase is because you're still getting better. It's just not an order of magnitude improvement into a new role. It's that 1% better improvement at your craft. And so what that looks like in practice is having a very clear plan for the team member that you can check in with them on. So what we do at Rocket Clicks is we have a coaching process where they're meeting with their mentor, with their coach every couple of weeks and reviewing the plan of, hey, what did you say you were going to do to improve in the last two weeks? Did you do it? How are you doing progressing towards your goals and your objectives in a 12 month time horizon? How can I help you? What support do you need? What clarity do you need? What suggestions can I give you? Who can you pair with? And so it's very much an active process. Development is not a place where you go hands off and go, oh, I don't have to be involved anymore. As a leader, you're still very much in there with them. Because they are still needing to get better. And a lot of people really just want to be good, like they're driven by competence. And so, like, cool. What does it look like for you to be better? What do you need to do for that? Do you need to take a course? Do you need to learn a new skill? Do you need to try new software? Do you need to pair with somebody? Do you need to go get your continuing education credits? How are we going to do that together? So that's what we've focused on here. We've seen really great success. Because I think a lot of companies, when they get to this phase, they kind of go, okay, you know, Jim's good. We got him in his seat. He's doing it. Don't need to worry about him. Yeah. And honestly, if you don't stay with your people here, you will lose them. That 20%. Those top performers, those highly driven folks, they will just be like, oh, cool. I can't go any higher here. I'm going to go someplace where they will, you know, the grass is greener because they'll give me whatever I need to be successful. And so the benefit here is if you do this well, you keep your top performers because they feel like, oh, yeah, I can get an opportunity here to grow and improve and I'm not going to get elsewhere. Yeah, I totally agree with that. I think we've found that our best, most productive employees never want to get to the top of the mountain. They want to keep climbing. And if we don't provide the opportunity for them to continue to learn and continue to develop, they're going to leave. And I got to believe the same is true, Tony, in law firms with, with attorneys, you know, we groom all these attorneys. We've been fortunate enough to grow our firm to have many, many attorneys. How are we keeping them motivated on the law firms? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's very similar. And I think our last episode we did was on an employee maturity model. It looks slightly different in the law firm than it does in a marketing agency. But there's different levels of, team member and kind of what your expectations are of them and their responsibility and their opportunity and like really thinking through that so that you have, you know, maybe you have a, an actual equity partner, maybe you have an income partner, maybe you have a just a title partner. That doesn't come with that. You have a senior associate, you have regular associates, you have law clerks, you got paralegals, you got legal assistance. So you got a chain of development for all of these team members to continue to progress down. That allows them to see, like, here's what's expected to be here. Here's where I'm at. This is what I need to do to improve. Because if I do that, then here's my next opportunity. So on and so forth. And you just keep creating really clear expectation and then giving feedback on that on the development path. So it's, it's really powerful when, you know, a leader's actually engaged with the development plan, for a team member because it's like they have a road to drive down versus like just trying to figure out, like, “What does Tyler want for me? I don't really know. I hope I'm doing a good job.” That doesn't work real well. That's just puts a lot of people in this place of ambiguity and so most of the time, mistrust. And you have dysfunctional businesses at that point. I couldn't agree with this point enough. And I think it's from personal experience. Early on in my career, I was fortunate enough to be paired next to someone who was, like, the best at their role. And it was very easy for me to see what good looked like. I didn't have to guess. I didn't have to try and think about what I needed to do to be successful. There was that model right in front of me, like, “oh, I just need to do that.” I need to do it really well. And by following that person's lead, it allowed me to accelerate my own growth that much faster. So if you're listening, that's got to be the advice. We've made mistakes in this, and, like, one of the biggest ones was when we first opened, we grew fast and we gave all attorneys, paralegals. And that was actually a huge mistake because they didn't understand the job they were delegated to. So then it was constant friction between the attorney and the paralegal, because the attorney really didn't understand the paralegals job because they never did it. They never did their own filings, they never did their own pleadings, never did their own, you know, X, Y, and Z. And then they delegate the task and the paralegal was like,“I don't have all the information,” the attorney was like, “why can't you just do what I'm asking you?” And now you have this, like, weird friction point that doesn't work. And it's because the person doing the delegation doesn't understand the job, and that thus can't actually leverage. That's actually the problem. So like really going through a process of starting from the ground floor and growing them up, for everybody that joins is super important. So you can actually scale them and top performers will grow faster than, you know, kind of your average group. So we have this great group. That is the majority of their time is spent in this development phase. We got to make sure that we're continuing to help them grow, learn, develop, and enhance their career. And if that happens, well, I want to promote them. We want to give them more responsibility or have them run a team of their own. Which brings us to the transition phase. I think that's the positive side. The negative side is, “hey, they didn't do a great job. We got to let them go.” This is a different type of transition. JP help us, learn a little bit about this transition phase. Yeah. So this is kind of your bridge between develop and align because again, it works in a cycle. We can share the visual on this. But basically the transition phase is beginning that period of change. Right. So you haven't yet taken on something, something new. But you're approaching change. And that change is either positive or negative. It's either positive in the sense that, because your development has been going well, we're going to start preparing you for the next move, right? The next role you're going to take on the next responsibility. Tony's example about the attorneys with the paralegals, it's like, “hey, maybe your next move is you're going to work from being a very, like, self-focused ME leader to a WE leader.” Your role is not going to change, but you're going to get direct reports. Like that's a big shift. Like we're going to go through transition, we're gonna prepare you for that. And then you're going to jump back into the align function of like how do I do this in practice? Right. So like it could be a new role. Or it could be new responsibilities or it could be a new function, or the other side of it. The negative side is, if you've got someone who's not hitting expectations, who's not showing up the way they should be, you've given them clear direction. You've given them opportunity, you supported them effectively. You again, you didn't just chuck them in the deep end with no floaties. You gave them the support they needed. But they're in that bottom 20%. If you keep that person, the impact on the rest of your team is so outsized. The risk is so big, and we're bad at this. Like as leaders, as humans were bad at measuring the risk of not taking action versus the risk of taking action, like you have to lean into that moment. So the transition here could be this isn't the right opportunity for you. And like, how do we move you out of this either into a different seat that is correct. Or out of the org entirely. So one maybe like I think I want to flag here is, there's a Peter principle. We've heard it before, which is you get promoted to the level of your incompetence. Sometimes someone raises their hand, they look good for a new position, a new opportunity. And so we set them up. We prepare them, we move them into that seat, and they can't do the role. They're not ready for it. But they were really good at the previous role. I would encourage leaders to think about if you have someone who's really good at doing something and you're preparing them for the next seat, what's the escape hatch if it doesn't work? Because you don't want to say like, hey, this person was great as an individual contributor, they weren't really ready for a WE. So we're just going to jettison them out of the organization. So transition could be, “I'm going to move you back into your area of competence. And we're going to go back to developing to get you ready for this move.” Rather than just give up on you entirely, like I don't I don't have to say goodbye. I could be transitioning you into a place where you're going to be successful again. You're good to get your confidence back. So transition could be out of the org into a different seat, including a prior role, or up into a new seat. I think there's so much here JP. I think about my own experience, being an individual contributor and then having to go from that ME role to the WE role. The expectations and the set up for me is so important on getting that employee ready for the next role before they actually take it. I think the classic analogy here is you have your best salesperson now lead a group of salespeople and you expect them to gather all the data and update the CRM. They're like, this is the least favorite part of their job. They want to just go out and sell. And so that's clearly not the right role for that person. So I think it's not only about setting the employee or person up for success, but it's also understanding, like is this their strengths? Do they have the opportunity to stretch and grow into this new role, or are they just they love killing it in their role and you can continue to develop them there, without having to transition anything. Tony, same deal in law firms is you're thinking about transitioning. If you're going from a law clerk to a paralegal or a paralegal to an associate or any of those crucial roles. And the difference between those roles, to me, this is a lot about modeling, but, what's your take on the law firm side? like I said before, we've made a lot of mistakes on this. One of them was we move people too fast. Kind of like what you both are talking about. And team members weren't ready for that next level of responsibility. You know, when you develop, when you start developing teams within your, your legal team, making sure that leaders actually equipped to do the job and a lot of that, I think, starts with having them practice it before they're in their role. Can they do it? Do they like to do it? You know, the hardest part of this transition phase is the negative side. This isn't working out. And if a leader can't do that portion of it and like you can't test that portion, test those conversations, test those critical conversations before they're in the role, you shouldn't be surprised when stuff doesn't go well because that's ultimately what typically happens. If you have a leader that can't give good, constructive, solid feedback, what will likely happen is either mass turnover because the leader is going to chase all the good people out, or apathy where the good people will leave on their own. The team is just super mediocre. And we've seen this in several different seasons over at the law firm, when we kind of stop taking our eye off what's most important, which is team member development and client satisfaction, like overly focus on systems and building firm. So let's say it's really important, testing the people before they're there I think is super important. Like you guys are both saying, you don't want to push someone up too fast and lose them because you kind of created a bad scenario for them, basically set them up to fail. Usually it's the leader that's trying to move way too quickly for that person that's growing. Sometimes it's they're really anxious and they want to prove it. like, let them prove it without giving them the role first. Give them the opportunities, see how it goes. Giving feedback. Yeah. I think, Tony, you said something that's really important, which is like the transition phase is preparation prior to alignment. This is your opportunity to give someone responsibilities before giving them, full ownership. And so if you, you know, Tyler, you shared about, “hey, I'm trying to go from, you know, a sales killer to a sales leader.” What opportunities are you giving them in this phase to be a leader, to flex that muscle, to try leading without a title before you give them the title? You know, John Maxwell talks about this in his five levels of influence. Like, you start at the place where, like you're trying to lead peers with no title, no responsibility, which is one of the really hardest phases. But if you can do it, it makes it so much easier. I tell the folks I lead, when you get that promotion, you want everyone to say, “Yeah! Of course! I kind of thought they were already in that role?” Rather than go, “Really? Are you sure? I don't know about that one.” Like so if you've done your job right in the transition phase, every time someone moves in that new seats, everyone's like, “oh, of course this is the greatest decision ever.” And, you know, you look like a genius because you had to put all the prep ed, which is which is really cool too. One of the key concepts I've learned from your role is that if you are hiring and you find someone who you think is just tremendous and that they could be in a, like a manager type role, you don't actually bring them as a manager. You bring them in as the role below it. Allow them to outpace everyone so that it is so obvious that they are the right fit and then everyone's on board and supportive as opposed to like, “well, I didn't get a shot, I didn’t get a chance,” or “it should have been me” or whatever it was. That really, really helps create that alignment. So we've talked about this on an individual level. How does a firm operationalize this? What tools tricks, techniques can a law firm utilize if they want to start thinking about this framework in their firm and rolling it out? Like we've talked about, this really starts with your onboarding process. You know, here at Rocket Clicks, we've established really clear depending on what employee maturity level you're coming in at, what are the expectations that we're going to see impact on it? You know, if you're hiring a VP or someone that's way more senior, you should see a positive morale. But the impact of their work, you're likely not going to see for 12 months because they should be working on big problems, big systems, training the team on new concepts. And then you'll start, you'll see some real acceleration, you're bringing in an assistant level person. You're going to know within the first two weeks if they're a good fit. And like each one has a different level. I think it's really important to kind of understand that from an align perspective and then bring this into how you're doing, you know, your ongoing coaching and mentorship and whether that's bi weekly or, or weekly. How are you helping the team member create a development path and then, approving it and helping adjust it with them so that they have some things to really tangibly work on. You know, when attorneys, are growing in their skill set, especially when they're fresh out of school, They don't really know how to practice yet. They know how to think. Getting in and like having experiences in each of these different phases of the, court procedure and like understanding how to network with clients and going through that process, and helping them build confidence. Because the worst thing you can do here is push them in too far. They lose all their confidence and they're basically neutered for quite a long time because they're scared to screw up especially attorneys going into the court for the first time on their own. it's a highly stressful situation because it's like, “I've worked this hard to get to this place. And then now I have a job and I have a client. I'm doing this on my own. I'm like, no, I can't look like a goofball in front of the judge. And like, I don't know where to sit. And like, I don't know how should I address the judge? Like, how does all this work?” And like, if you set your team member up, they got to see all of that versus you throw them into the wolves and hopefully they don't look like a goofball. it's really important to like think through it in specifics. Like what do you want to see from them? To me, step one is take a look at your team. Understand which phase of development are they in, and then be able to more proactively and systematically create opportunities for them to continue to grow and develop, depending on where they're at. Yeah. One of the things you can do is, as you understand this system and, you know, we're talking through this in multiple episodes, talking through all the things that Tony mentioned in terms of, you know, the coaching framework and the development plan framework and all of these things, as you understand this and you start doing it with your kind of first line as the business leader, the group you're working with, then saying, okay, how do I have visibility into what that group is doing with their reports? So I'm going to shadow their coaching for a while, make sure they're doing it the right way. I'm going to review the development plans, like they get to present those to me to make sure I get signed off, because now I am creating accountability for those leaders who are new into doing this. And like that way I know that this is how our company does it. Our firm does it. This is, you know, from Why, this is our process. It's not my way. And then, you know, Terry's got, you know, their way and then like, you know, Johnny's got his way and. No, no, it's one way we all do it the same way we all use the same documents. It all feeds in the same system. I have visibility into it. And so, you know, I think operationalizing is probably my love language. So I get really excited about this because, like you as the leader, you should know how it's happening at every level without having to like, “oh, I got to go to every meeting. I get to check on everything.” No. Like, what's your visibility? What's your accountability as you put this in place, where you can see what's happening at every level of your org and know that it's being done the right way. So like, are you tying incentives to this? Are you tying their development plans to this and the coaching? How are you creating the visibility asynchronously? So you don't have to do it because you got your own stuff to manage so very much. It's you have to go from like, “oh cool, I can kind of figure it out and do it by feel. I'm good at it” to, “you know, my team has to be good at this. Our company has to be good at this.” It's going to take time. Like when we institute of this at Rocket Clicks. It took us about a year to roll this out to every single person in the company. It takes time. We are 40 or so team members now. It just takes time. Start with do it yourself as a leader, then bring your like most influential group. Or if you have a leadership team like do it with them next, then have them start to do it with their people while you're watching them do it. And like you just slowly spread it out. But now everybody's trained in you as a business owner. You don't have to do it all. So I think patience is probably and our next section is going to be pitfalls, but like trying to go real fast is not going to solve any of your problems. Yes. Tried and failed at that many times. Tony, you alluded to it. You know, our final section here is like avoiding common pitfalls and trying to institute this. And I think we've kind of sprinkled some in throughout, but this work is we're concluding, gentlemen, I'd love to hear any additional kind of watch outs or things to think about as law firm owners are thinking about implementing this process. I think our biggest learning, or my biggest learning to this process, when we implemented it here at Rocket Clicks from what we did at what we did at Sterling and how we evolved it, was as we developed competencies for our team members, and had them assess themselves on it. Your team members are not going to be objective. They're going to think, how good am I at a certain thing? Not JP's the best at this. And how do I compare to JP? Because that would be the right type of comparison. Like who's your Michael Jordan of competency? And then how do I measure up against that. And like here's my growth again. Here's my growth opportunity. And like now we can really study it versus you know, I'm overconfident or maybe a team member that's you know, I maybe I self diagnose myself as lower than I am often because we saw that and we saw it on both sides like overconfidence and not really understanding how good they were at it. You know, this was probably one of the biggest lessons is when we did competency evaluation, which leads right into development plans. that was a really good learning, the nuanced. Well, one. I've learned to never compare myself to JP. Because he always to me, beats us and everything. Right. Understanding again, back to my own personal experience, what this could look like. How do I embody that? How do I model that? And what are the gaps between where I'm at today and where this person above me is? Gentlemen, I really appreciate your time. Listeners, if you like this concept, we have a whole series on team development. Make sure to check those out. And, we will see you all next time on the revenue roadmap. If you found this episode on Align, Develop and Transition Framework valuable, you will love our next episode on the Employee Maturity Model. We're going to explore how to lead team members through the evolving stages of Independence, Impact, and Leadership. Go ahead and click over here for the next episode and we will see you there.