Revenue Roadmap
Revenue Strategies for Family Law Firms
Learn from the experts behind the growth of sterlinglawyers.com Anthony Karls, President of Rocket Clicks/co-founder of Sterling Lawyers, and Tyler Dolph, CEO of Rocket Clicks, interview the experts in all the areas that will drive revenue and increase profits for family law firms
Get technical knowledge and learn from the experience of those who paid the price to learn what it takes to grow from an idea to an exclusively family law firm with 30+ attorneys.
Revenue Roadmap
How ONE Conversation Launched Jacqueline's 30-Attorney Firm
Hear how one spontaneous decision and a late-night conversation in New York City catapulted Jacqueline from a law student seeking work to the managing partner of a thriving 30-attorney matrimonial firm.
In this Revenue Roadmap episode, she reveals her unconventional path—starting with a simple ask to her law professor—that led to explosive growth, multiple office locations, and a powerful firm culture.
By the end, you’ll learn proven strategies to scale your practice, empower associates to take ownership, and balance top-tier client service with an unstoppable business mindset.
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CHECK OUT THESE RELATED VIDEOS:
How Joshua Fueled His Full-Service Law Firm in Texas
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https://youtu.be/6JIWLjm4I1Y?si=23-7leurbBPs0uE2
How to Start a Law Firm From Scratch
https://youtu.be/YnY4-2inII8?si=RM7IQQgyQ6pOj7qv
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📄 CHAPTERS
00:00 - The Conversation That Sparked a 30-Attorney Firm
02:27 - Crafting a Multijurisdictional Practice
05:24 - Minimal Budgets, Maximum Ambition
09:27 - Building a Culture Where Associates Hire Associates
14:57 - Insider Secrets to Rapid Growth
17:58 - Strategies for Expanding Offices
20:05 - Final Tips for Aspiring Law Firm Entrepreneurs
21:56 - Conclusion & Next Steps
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Hear how a drunken night in New York was the catalyst to starting a huge family law firm. Welcome back to the Revenue Road Map. My name is Tyler Dolf. I am the CEO of Rocket Clicks, a hyper focused digital marketing agency that works exclusively with family law firms looking to grow and build their firms to to larger and more profitable than they ever thought imaginable. Today we are continuing our interview series with Jaclyn Neumann. She is the managing partner of a large law firm in New York called Berkman, Bochner, Neumann and Shine. Her story is an incredible one. She got her job by asking her law professor if they needed help and then one drunken night in New York, they decided to start their own firm. This interview is a great one. Make sure to check it out. Welcome back, everyone to another exciting episode of the Revenue Roadmap. Today we have an incredible guests. Jaclyn, thank you so much for your time today. Could you please introduce yourself and, and your firm to our audience? Sure. Well, thanks so much for having me. My name is Jaclyn Newman. I'm the managing partner of the law firm Berkman, Baker, Neumann and Stein. We're a matrimonial law firm in, Manhattan with offices in Long Island and in Westchester and slowly creeping into Florida and New Jersey. Oh. That's interesting. Why the locations spread out like that? Well, in New York, we wanted to be able to cover the two surrounding suburbs. So, I mean, offices in Manhattan. But then we have the two outside. And then as for new York and New York, new Jersey and Florida, new Jersey, we get a lot of people that live in new Jersey and practice in Manhattan. So you get a lot of that. And then Florida, you know, we have a lot of New Yorkers that are, going out to Florida avoiding state tax. So, you know, so we're looking to kind of branch out in there and we have, counsel people right now in both places. But I'm looking to build like real offices there soon. I love it. That's awesome. As a firm owner, we built our firm based on the idea of finding locations that are a bit more spread out, from a population density standpoint, because we really believe in the power of Google Maps. Hearing that you have a location in Manhattan is fascinating to me. Can you give us a little history on how the firm was built, why you chose Manhattan? Was it kind of like an old school mentality? Like we got to be where the people are or how. How was. So there's a little bit more history to it. So I actually joined the firm. So there were two older partners who ordered, Berkman and the backer of Bergman back are doing a sign. And what happened was, Barry Berkman was my law school professor. And I went up to him at the end of class and asked for retiring. And the person that was working for him at the time was leaving to go for the Grateful Dead. So he was just like, sure, come on in. And so basically, I started working with both of them and at the time. So Barry and Wally, the two partners who I mean are just amazing, amazing people, attorneys, everything. They knew each other from Harvard, and they were basically out with friends one night and drunk and they were like, hey, you want to start a law firm? And family law while I was a corporate, litigator. And he's like, sure, I could do that. So he was like, I can let it get anywhere. So they basically joined. But when I came in, one was on the east side and one was on the west side, and they are like polar opposite peoples really. Again, both great, smart, amazing attorneys. But you have one who's like a Democrat Jewish guy who's living on the Upper West Side. And then you had Wally, who was kind of like, you know, Catholic, very conservative, living on the Upper East Side. They couldn't be more different. But yet they worked so well together. And so when I came in originally as an intern, I was kind of bouncing between the West side and the East side. It was a disaster. And so I was like, all right, this is not working anymore. We need an office. So I'm looking back. I was like this young, precocious. I was like, I'll take care of it. Don't worry. I'm like, okay guys, I got this. And so just to date myself, I had to go into the law journal and like, look at ads for where there might be office space. And I go to these offices and, you know, one, one east side, one one west side. So I picked this avenue because I was like, all right, compromise, guys. We can both do this. And I went into different offices and literally like just to show I would measure the offices of my feet, I take my shoes off and just measure like that, which I don't know how. And now that I'm an older person, like how I, someone didn't just take me out of their office, right. And their and be like, you have to get out of here, little girl. Anyway. So yeah. And so we kind of built from that and it started really small with the three of us. And then as time went on, you would add people, and now we're 31 attorneys, I think. Yeah, we've really grown. And, you know, Wally, unfortunately, he had a stroke a few years ago, so he left the firm. But we're still very close to him. And Barry's like, on his way, you know, starting to leave now. So that's it. And I. And then I brought in Evan sign and my younger partner, and Evan and I are the equity partners now. That is insane. I mean, I have so many questions about it. Just ask away. Do you remember the the rent of the first office on Fifth Avenue? God, I don't I can tell you my rent right now. I'm super. God, no, I you know, I don't remember, but I know like, at me at the time, though, because I'm 20 something years old, it was really expensive. And now looking back, I'm like, what was I thinking? But yes, I would guess if I had to guess, it was probably maybe ten grand, maybe five grand, 7500 like that. Oh my gosh, that's so wild. So as the greatest part, it's like you've been there since the beginning as it slowly and turned to to now being an equity partner in the firm. So congratulations on your success. Yeah, I appreciate that. Talk us through some of those early days, key learnings like did they always love that they got drunk in a bar one night just like, this firm, when they were talking to you about their vision and you were helping them accomplish this vision, was it always, we want to get to 30 attorneys and be really big or. 100%? I can see that evolution. Couldn't have been more opposite of that. So the two of them, again, brilliant, brilliant attorneys, they were not men. They were not business people. They didn't really care so much about the business. And when I was starting and growing up with them, you know, I didn't know enough to care either. And then I just I love business. I've always loved business. And I always say in the last five what I went to business school. And so eventually one day I decided I was going to start running the business because I just thought they were doing a very bad job. And so and they, to their credit, like their attitude always was like, you be you just as long as you take care of everything. We don't care. Like the big joke about it. When I became a partner one day, I walked in. I was like, it's time for me to be a partner. Like, okay. And then, like, I think about when people become a partner now in my firm, it's a whole to do like we do. Like we said, champagne. We do like it's a whole thing. For me, it was literally okay. And when I decided I want my name to be in the firm, I went in and I said, I think it says my name to be in the firm. They're like going to take care of it. That's fine. I was like, okay. And then when I decided I started taking over the books and started getting in with our accountants and everything, and one day I just said I was like, I'm declaring myself managing partner. Like, okay. And that was really how the whole thing happened. Like there was no. Business partners ever. They kind of are. But they didn't want to, you know, their attitude. But like, as long as you take care of it and I can just keep doing what I want to do, that's fine. And so I decided like and again, they are such good guys. But like it was one of those things I looked at. I was very precocious and I was like, we're on Fifth Avenue now, you guys. I didn't like the ties they'd wear. So I was like, you need to start wearing Ferragamo tie. And so I would buy them Ferragamo ties, like, you know, as holiday gifts and like, I didn't like the shirts they were wearing. So I was like, one of them have. So I would get them, my, my, like little state, what do they call them? Totally blanking. Cufflinks. Cufflinks. Thank you. I don't know, I totally ran off my head. So I get them cufflinks. I was like, that means you need shirts that use cufflinks and like, so like I just started, like, that type of thing. And they were just, you know, they were like, okay. Like, they really just kind of went along with everything. And they are amazing people. They couldn't have been more supportive in my career and everything. And so when we grew, yeah, that wasn't that was me. They were not as into it. They were perfectly happy being like a really small little thing. I was less happy with that. I kind of had much more, delusions of grandeur and really wanted to build this thing up. And again, they were just sort of like, okay. And now it's sort of funny when we have these holiday parties and there's, you know, 40 or 50 people in the room. And while he comes, I have to like, whisper who people are. And even with Gary, sometimes they're on a zoom I like I see him looking at someone a little puzzled who they are, like, here's something. So I detect from all I've been like, that's our new intern in the Westchester office. He's like, and I see him like that. I was like, yeah. That is so amazing. The lesson I'm hearing, you know, if I am, young law student or I'm a young lawyer, sometimes you gotta ask for what you want, right? Make some should happen. You know, sometimes you just do it. All the time. I love all the time. You know, the answer to answer. Question is now. So I ask question 100%. And what's the worst that could happen? Look, I know you're okay. Good for let's say yes, but you also could be the worst thing that could happen, but not in this situation. So you are taking over more responsibilities of the firm. You guys are starting to grow. You know, 30 attorneys is an incredible milestone, especially for for family law offices. You know, we always talk about how when we got to 30 attorneys, that was we were kind of like, okay, we've there's something here. Right. I'm getting there. How have you been able to build, process and create opportunities and open locations like what's your mindset going into to building the firm, and how have you been able to do that so successfully? So it's a fantastic question because I think a lot of it was somewhat organic, like a lot of it wasn't like I woke up one morning. I was like, I want 30 attorneys. But I think what ended up happening, I'm a big believer in you don't walk away from opportunities. We had a lot of people that have fallen into our lap. We've been amazing. I've had a lot of people that have been with me since the very beginning. We don't have a ton of turnover. You know, for me, culture is king. Like, I am super, super into culture. I've been like at almost the majority of the weddings at my office, and we had one last weekend. There was like 20 of us there. We, you know, and the baby name is I'm one of those people that, you know, I'm like, I'm on the list. Like the second you give birth, I want that part two in the morning. I want to know what's going on. Like, there's a very, very tight knit. My associates are super tight knit. We just sort of grew somewhat organically, at least in the city. The outside offices were much more of a decision like I really wanted because, again, at least in New York City and on Fifth Avenue, when I would go to the outside boroughs, they'd be like a Fifth Avenue attorney can't be here kind of thing. It's a very, you know, if you didn't go to high school with these people and you weren't out there, probably want nothing to do with you. And so I realized that being shot down many times I had someone was argue to me saying, well, maybe that's how they do it on Fifth Avenue. And I was like, well, actually people are. And that's sort of how they do it everywhere. And they were just like, you wanted nothing to do with me. I realized we needed insiders, and so we started hiring people that were on the inside, like, and even though it's drop ins often shouldn't be that way, sometimes you just got to play the game. It is what it is world. It is the way of the world. So we would, like I was like, just, you know, if your phone number, the judge's phone number on your phone, like that was kind of my interview question, like, let's start there just to know how close everybody is. And unfortunately or fortunately, some of them were. And so that's how we started building. And I have to say, I mean, I find it harder to build in the outside world. We have a lot of people that really want to come to the New York City life, as a lot of young students always want to be in the New York City office and New York City offices. Tons of fun. You know, and it's in the outside boroughs. You don't have that many younger people that are usually living in the outside boroughs. They may live there eventually, but not in the beginning. And so it's harder to build out there very much. But the advice I give to people, I mean, the problem that, you know, especially in that money law, is that you don't want to hire people unless you have experience. But again, they can't get experience once they get hired. So this is kind of, you know, it's very small, as you said, like, I know we're one of the largest. Sounds like you're one of the largest. There's a few in Chicago, but for the most part it's solo practitioners and young, you know, small, firm. And so what I always advise people is like, you know, work for free, like, just get your experience, like, it doesn't matter. I mean, it does matter where you work, but it is just about getting the experience that people don't want to take risks. But I'm also a huge proponent of as I said, you don't want to walk away from opportunities. If you get a good person, you train them like matrimonial law. It's it can be complex, but it's not rocket science. It's all about people. And, you know, and I used to say, my interview skills, I used to just not even look at a resume. I'd be like, I'd have, you know, can I go out for lunch with you? That was usually my like, when that when I would interview people. I look at the resume after because I'm like, if you're annoying to me, you're going to be annoying to my clients. And so it's so much about personality. At least in this field, you can pretty much learn everything else you need to know. And we also deal on the high net worth space. So the high net worth space, there's not a lot of space where you just need to know the judges, you need to know what's going on. And so to me, even more to the point, you need to know how to work with the people because these cases settle for the most part. You don't see a lot of litigation about them because people want to be private and things like that. And so it's all about just knowing your people and putting the good culture together. So I think that's like the key to the whole thing. That's incredible. So for our listeners, there are 68,000 family law firms across the country, which is pretty. Yeah. Very true. Most of that majority of them are still practitioners, right? They're very small shops. And it's being able to to come in and create value initially as high if they're open to letting go. Right. There's so many, single sole proprietors who are that way because they like to be in control of all of the things they have their hands on, all the things. So being able to find a firm that will allow you to take things off their plate and create that value is really important. You said something that that really struck a nerve, which was building a great culture. Talk to me about what you've done to create that culture. I think what we know and from what we've seen in our firm is that culture is so important. Having values, having a vision and being able to share that vision is is an incredibly important. But when we're dealing with attorneys, getting them involved is is sort of a different game, right? We have our agency and and young hungry workforce at the agency. Leading and building a culture at the agency is much different than the culture we're building at the law firm because of who we're dealing with. Yeah, we found that to be true. So I think I get it. Who you pick. We are really, you know, I mean, I heard you cursing, so I'm going to say we have a no alcohol policy, like, very much. I don't care what your book is. None of that matters to me in any way whatsoever. So that's like number one, the other thing that we do and I you know what I tell this to, I run a lot of managing partner groups and a lot of women managing partner groups, which are, you can imagine or barbecue between, as I'm sure you've seen. But, I have my associates hire associates. And the reason being is that I don't personally know really what we need. And so again, beer slushie and people call me all the time, how do I break in the field, blah, blah, blah. And I was like, don't call the managing partner. Like, I try to take like 2 or 3 calls a month just to get back. But generally, don't call me. You should be calling the junior partners or the senior associate because they're the ones who have the hands on the pulse. They're the ones who know if we need someone. I don't really know. I know that I, you know, I have work to do. I give it to my workflow attorney and then it gets done. I don't know how the toilet paper goes in the role. I'm not involved in that anymore. And so I'm the worst person to be calling for this. And so for me, my associates come to me say we need to hire. I say okay, and I say go hire. And the way I look at it is they do the interviews. I'm usually one of the last interviews because they're the ones we're gonna have to work with these people. And so why am I going to choose who you're going to sit with at lunch? You know, and also you I want you to have interest in it. I want you to feel vested because your name's going on this person. And at the end of the day, like, I'm still giving my work with senior associate or junior partner, whoever. They have to do it like they're still responsible, just like I'm still responsible if they screw up. So hire somebody that's going to be good. And it's I mean, I will tell you, like, my associates are tough. I call them mean girls. Like, and it's not just girls, but like they are, it's hard to get in our door. I would hire so many more people than they would. But you know what guys look like. I think that's great. And they care and they are invested. And the person that they choose is somebody that they're all ready to put their names on. And I've been told that what they do is they interview this is I to kind of find this funny. And as soon as like the person clicks off, they have this little system where they have the thumbs and they either go up or down like everyone knows to do it. And it's like, and I go, you know, I feel like that's how they basically decide who they're going to get to the next round. And I, you know, thumbs up. In order to move forward. Yeah, you have to have a thumbs. Up I love that. So I just I just learned that I was like, oh it's a system, right? It's like work. But I that that's the thing. And also I don't have to interview a million people. That also helps, you know, and by the time someone gets to me, I say like, tell me why? Like how are they going to integrate in our culture? What are they going to do? Where are or what do you see them being strong at? And you know, and we also like and they all rally and our associates are super, super close which partially because they picked who they wanted to sit with. And I think there's something to be said for that. We at our business, we call that shared faith. Yes. No, I am responsible for the person that I hire, and I'm going to be held accountable for their success. And so we have this shared fate where we're moving in the same direction, and it's my ass on the line if you don't work out. That's right. I better interview in a way that's going to allow us to both be successful. Yeah, 100%. And the only interview question I usually ask is what's your pet peeve? What's your work pet peeve and your own pet peeve? I think that tells so much about a person. Like everyone's expecting us all these crazy hard questions, and I let everyone do their thing. And then as an AG part of that's my question, I feel like it throws people off. But like, I'm always like, you know what? That's what I want to know because you're going to tell me a lot. Like if you're someone who's like, I hate when people like, you know, micromanage me, which, you know, that's fair, but that's telling me something right there or someone just like, you know, I don't like anyone touching my desk. Okay. Again. Okay. That's something I want to know. You know, like, whatever it may be, I'm very, you know, like, I have, like, whatever I was gonna say. So totally inappropriate, but I want. So anyway, go ahead. I'm sitting here racking my brain with, like, well, what's my pet peeve? How would I answer that question? That's right. It's not. It's not. Easy. Questions. And I also like people to answer quick. Right. Because we also can you think on your feet like that's not a question you're expecting especially coming from me. And you know, I want to know like what's your reaction time. Because I think in our field, you know, we have we're litigators. We need to be able to react. You guys need some confidence to. Yeah, 100%. Chocolate. I wish we could spend like, like nine days together. I really enjoyed this time. I really appreciate your story. Incredible origin story. We love great origin stories here. I told you a little bit about our listenership, and and you gave us some really great tips throughout, but is there anything that you'd want to leave, our listeners with as they're thinking about getting into the field, or do I start my own firm, or do I go join a big firm? What what piece of advice could you leave the listeners with? So the piece of advice I give anyone who does this, you should go and intern or work for judges or do something in matrimonial law before going out. You're going to make no money in the beginning because it's just not a field. You make money, wait until later unless you're part of a big firm, has a small matrimonial practice, so you need to make sure you really want to do this. It is emotionally draining work, I love it, I find it so rewarding. I wanted to do it since I was like in middle school, which is really weird, but whatever. And and yet there's no divorce in my family. Like, so like four generations out. My parents are both psychotherapists. The big family joke because I was too aggressive to be a therapist. But I but, I really think you need to practice like you need to. You need to be in it because everybody thinks it's sexy and it's fine. No, it's fun to hear about people's sex lives and money and blah, blah, blah, but you need to make sure you can really do this. And like hearing people whine all day long and being neutral and really kind of validating. And, you know, I always say I'm that's a strength. Like you need to make sure you can do it. And you don't want to learn that after the fact. Like, you want to learn that while you're in law school because you are it is a hard skill to break into. So you want to basically be in a situation this is 100% what I want. So I think get the experience now while you know you're still under the dime of whoever's paying for you and, find out if this is really where your passion lies because you're going to burn out. If it's not, you got a lot of it. Right? You're dealing with people at some of the worst time of their entire life. And if you can add value during that time, you actually are going to be a huge benefit to the rest of their life. You got to be you got to have the callous and the muscle built up to be able to do both of those things. But I do think it's a wonderful field. Can I? I just want to offer a little plug to the field. I love it more than anything. And like, I mean, I would have thought myself if I was doing taxes, but like I have to say, it's you learn something new every single day. I always say I've got like five minutes cocktail conversation. I'm pretty much any topic there is because you learn, I learn businesses, I learn, I mean a million different things. It is something you every single day is different. People are different. I can't say enough good things about this type of field. Like, I absolutely, absolutely love it. So I do think people to dabble in it if you, if that's something you're interested in. But again just make sure it's real interest. So great. Will you please come back as I. Would love to. Thank you so much for your time today everyone. I hope you enjoyed this awesome episode and we will see you next time on the revenue roadmap. If you enjoyed this interview with Jacqueline, make sure to check out the other interviews we have during this series. At Revenue Roadmap, we have had some amazing conversations and heard some awesome stories telling their, perspective on what it takes to build a successful law firm. You will love it! Make sure to check out a few of them right here.
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