Mold Testing, ERMI, and How to Choose a Professional Inspector & Remediation Team with Joseph Reiss

Mold Inspections: How to Test, Who to Hire, and What to Avoid

If you suspect mold in your home, the overwhelm can be real: Which tests matter? Who can you trust? How do you know if remediation was done right?

In this episode, I sit down with Indoor Environmental Professional (IEP) and ISEAI member Joseph Reiss to break it all down. We cover the practical first steps—like ERMI testing and when to bring in an inspector—what separates a solid inspection from a wasted one, and why HVAC systems are one of the most commonly missed mold sources. Joe also explains how to choose the right remediation team, what shortcuts to avoid, and why post-remediation clearance is essential.

Whether you’re just starting to wonder if your environment is making you sick, or you’ve been through failed remediation before, this episode will help you move from paralyzed and overwhelmed to clear and confident in your next steps.

Find Joseph at 

https://www.josephreissjr.com/

908-451-4692 

jprconsultants7929@gmail.com

To search for other quality inspectors, look on the Acac.org .

Instagram: @heyheyelizabethmae
Website: www.heyheymae.com

Transcript

Speaker 01: 0:00

Hey, you're going to be okay. I'm Elizabeth Mae and my functional health practice helps people heal when they've exhausted traditional options. When no one else can figure your health challenges out, my team helps you resolve symptoms and restores your health. You're listening to my podcast where we'll hear stories of healing chronic illness from a root cause approach. We're back today with another episode of our ongoing mold conversation. This time we're going to talk about testing, inspection, remediation from a choosing standpoint. How do you make these decisions when you've come upon mold or when you're just figuring out the mold is part of your health dynamic? We get to talk with one of our favorite inspectors, Joe Reiss. He has a really interesting and different background than most of the inspectors that we've worked with. He is based in Virginia, lives in New Jersey and kind of travels all over. He's traveled the country, for clients of ours. A part of his background that is different is he's a member of the International Society of Environmental Acquired Illnesses, ISEA, and he's also practicing indoor air professional or indoor environmental professional, I guess, as an IEP. That was my bad. But that background in understanding the health piece is so important, obviously, for our clients. And I just kind of want to understand more, Joe, of like what was entailed in that certification or process of belonging to that organization that has you understanding really more of what our clients deal with and inquiring illness when they're in mold?

Speaker 02: 1:34

Oh, great question. Thanks, Elizabeth, for having me. And I love these sessions to help so many. And one of the things you want to understand with having that ability to be part of that organization is it requires some extensive field experience upwards of 10 years practicing along a medical clearance basis, right? We'll get a lot from you docs, a patient our clients they turn to, and you want to understand their background clinically, right? And we apply it to the environmental exposures. So that's a huge part of this organization. We become the running back to you guys. And that is so key. So you understand an optic you may not be able to pick or understand from in your own protocol, but we'll see it in the environment. So for me, that's key. So the client knows we're walking in your home with a practitioner are looking for that balance between the environment and actually the human body. And you know, you're more, I would say, exposed to most of what we're dealing with, right? Because you're not born with this. You can't eat all this. You're just exposed from your indoor environments as we're learning. So this organization really preaches about understanding source identification, source removal, and building practices, right? So they rely on an IEP a lot. And my background was a building tradesmen 35 years ago. And now in the last 10 to 12 years, I decided to go a little more on a medical correlation side. How is this proven out? And I think we've been helping somebody like yourself, but it's important to understand that. And I see as a great organization and there's various other ones, but that's my main organization.

Speaker 01: 3:17

We do love, it's really nice from our side when we're seeing a client and they are starting to connect the dots that we're seeing really clearly, like, Hey, there does seem to be mold problems of this equation and to be able to push them to someone who can help them understand what's going on in their home and connect the dots to what we're seeing is such a grace because sometimes we've referred people to indoor air professionals, environmental professionals that don't understand the correlation and will say like, it's not that big a deal or we probably shouldn't be having all that going on from this, but it's really important to understand that medical piece and also to take very seriously the remediation recommendations that are given because if someone's house isn't remediated well, this is the tale as old as time. We inherit clients all the time from other practitioners and they're like, I've done mold remediation. We're all good there. That's been fine. And then it was always a huge red flag for me because they may have done that. But if it wasn't done well and people on that team weren't, weren't understanding of the health correlation, it may not have been done well enough. So we're really going to focus today on kind of like practical steps clients can take. We're going to talk through testing, choosing inspection and the right team and kind of helping move clients from that state of overwhelm. So I kind of want to talk about testing first. I know that you know that we refer clients to use an ERMI first. Could you tell us a little bit about that testing? And for us, it's just something that they can do. We can get kind of like a benchmark to say, yay or nay, it's here. And then we usually are handing them over after figuring that out to you. But tell me about an ERMI and what that is.

Speaker 02: 4:45

Yeah, great topic to talk about. Because, you know, air and surface just can't get enough data from, right? Snapshot time. So we do PCR, as you know, an ERMI. For us and for myself, it's a PCR analysis, right? And it's really specific for mold, MSQ PCR, right? We use it differently. And what I like to see, like, for instance, a client, patient you refer, oh, he had a high ERMI score and we're worried and we did, we collected from bedrooms. What we want to understand is a home screen, right? And the next steps is, how did it get there? That's where the trained professional like myself will make that determination. It's about source identification, the root cause of that, right? So we look at these ERMIs and guys, it's numbers on a paper that I'm going to teach you or I'm going to explain everybody. It's about the qualitative reporting species that we learn to understand. Either that group one, those 26 important mold species are all indicators, water damaging molds, allergenic molds. So you got to learn where they come from. And that's the goal here and how to use an ERMIs on my side. But I always sample from a source, right? Through my assessments, outdoor and door, water management, moisture management gets identified, airflow, filtration. I always find 98% of the problems being the ventilation system. It acts as the facilitator, and that's where your ERMI scores are coming from. So believe it or not, I sample the source, we remove or control the source, you're going to see an improvement. So an ERMI is a very useful tool, cautioning on how to use it and how to represent the organisms and the readings, right? I got a red bar So I got a 28, a 32. Again, you got to understand how it got there. And that's kind of what I teach when I get there. It's a great question. Very useful tool.

Speaker 01: 6:33

Yeah. Yeah. And when we, I mean, delving into mold is definitely overwhelming. Always because that is step one. And ERMI is really just step one to figuring out if it's there, what varieties are there. And it helps us sometimes to know like, okay, you have this particular mold and you're having this health problem. Well, that mold is carcinogenic to the kidney. So now we have a little bit of an understanding why there's stuff going on. But for you, and this is something we educate our clients on too, like certain molds and different species grow in different places or maybe originated from different root cause events, I guess, if you will. But how can somebody kind of begin discerning if mold is a problem past an ERMI or even like once they have their ERMI, what other kind of testing is helpful or what can you tell us about that?

Speaker 02: 7:20

So another great question. And what we look at is you just can't, you have to develop a sampling strategy, right? This is a home screen technique, as you keep recommending so many patients and clients. So what we look at is, okay, now let's understand where the root cause is. If we have to do a source analysis, a source test, and we'll do a different method, right? If we have different presentations and we understand water damage home, I'm going to test rectinomyces. Endotoxins do a bacteria set, right? If I got an odor and I got a very sensitive client that is triggering from a odor from new furniture or moving into a new home, we'll do VOCs and formaldehyde, right? The skill set of what we know and what we learn from the environment, we can come up with a key strategy where it can help produce these optics you would never know, right? So it's very important to understand the assessment leads to the sample strategy. You must have that deep dive assessment. And yeah, we can do variations of sampling. And the methods can be from a tape lift, from a swab a dust collection, a Swiffer cloth. There's a lot of ways you can collect these samples, but we're concentrating on DNA so we can get enough of matter to give you a definitive, broken down approach of what's in the home. And you guys know the correlation as well as ourselves. Now we're learning all these molds, really. We're picking up in the clinical labs that are correlating and it's a game changer. And now you get to understand the root cause of exposure, right? But the sampling strategy is key. Elizabeth, we must understand that to do effective inspections.

Speaker 01: 8:59

Yeah, I think that part's really valuable too when you work with an IEP who understands that because there can be more than just mold. I actually had a client a few years ago, they had a bat infestation in their house a few times, like they dealt with the bats coming in and out and in and out. And their little boys had major eczema, had major skin, food reactivity. Dad had some too, but wasn't home very much. And once, you know, getting into inspecting, if we'd just been looking for mold, that really, that part of the equation wouldn't have been found probably, the bacteria. the bacterial portion came along with the animal part. The same is true. You know, you may say, I don't have that. Well, I've had clients who have beautiful old renovated farmhouse in Chicago and they had a mouse infestation issue in one part of the house and there were big bacterial issues there too. So an IEP really offers more than just the mold part. Like that's huge, but you know, understanding that there's more to the health of the home is really important. So something clients will sometimes do are those little mold plates. You know, you You can like set them out, collect those. Yeah. What's your opinion on those? Are they ever useful?

Speaker 02: 10:02

Well, like an army, a home screen, this is a lower level home screen, right? It's collecting a viable mold species that's going to culture and grow in minutes to an hour, right? And all of a sudden you got a Christmas tree of colors or you got these funky looking circles, right? It just tells us there's viable mold species moving around in the air, right? So you got to understand the root cause of with it. coming from, ventilation, ductwork, water-damaged basement, flooded attic. It just depends on, it tells you further analysis is needed. Then we get into the inspection of, okay, so you have some concerns here. You're culturing a lot of cladosporium, molten area, penicillium-type molds, but where are they coming from? Then we look at the dust. And then from the dust, we're sampling non-viable mold species through the DNA, and there's your answer And now we can understand the root cause of that Petri dish potentially. So yeah, it's first base in science, right? Step one causation there is, and then further evaluation with a professional and I'm going to do a deeper dive and look at root causes of that.

Speaker 01: 11:15

Yeah. So we kind of teach it like as a hierarchy, like, okay, if you're not ready to dive into an army and you want to answer yes or no, those mold plates can give you a yes or no. And I don't always let them be a full no. Sometimes if there's not a lot of growth, but there's a little something and I'm seeing major healthcare correlation, then I'll push for an ERMI. And then from the ERMI, that really takes you into a professional environment where somebody who really understands where these things come from, how they grow, all of that. And then we hand them over to y'all. And what sort of testing, I mean, there's lots of things, but like, what is kind of like a general process? Is there just air testing? Is there surface stuff? Like what's your, I don't know if there's a standard for like what a good inspector is going to be doing testing wise.

Speaker 02: 11:54

So what we try to do is come on with, come on, I excuse me, I should say we'll start with a full assessment. And then from there, we're going to look at a strategy consisting of about five steps, right? Air and surface, just basic microscopy reporting, good for source identification, validate and dismiss a concentrated area, right? If we want to understand dispersion or we don't want to understand overall impact, then we'll look at the PCR analysis, right? There's many ways to do it. ERMI is a traditional acronym out there. We look at PCR a little differently. I can do it through a generic form called an EPA-36. And then I would get into mycotoxins sampling. Then I can get into bacterias. And like I said, BOCs, formaldehyde, and other cultures, bulk samples. So I have everything ready to go for every assessment. It's up to the client's needs. What are we looking to accomplish? What are some of your concerns? And then I assess and I develop this process. We sit down, talk, do a storyboard presentation, kind of prove it out. And they understand now what's important and what's really needed and important, not only for the environmental side of remediation, but how about you guys getting the medical optic or understanding that exposure, right? So, and for a quick example here, I'm seeing a lot of penicillium molds, right? And if you understand penicillium breva compactum, in our field, it is the number one producer of mycophenolic acid. How many times You see that on the panel, right? So we're learning on our side, correlating to your side. Without the strategy, you'll never know that, right? And I'll go right down to aspergillus, every single one of them, understanding what produces ochratoxin A and a mycotoxin is aspergillus ochreus. When you do this hundreds or thousands of times, you'll see this day in and day out, a game changer for your patients to hand it off to you to get that medical optic. So the strategy, I can't say enough, has got to be unfolded after every assessment, six it down to client and really educate on what's needed. So it's a great question. Very important.

Speaker 01: 14:04

It really is like putting a puzzle together. Like we start to get early pieces and then we have their physical testing, whether that's an ode or mycotoxin testing, or they're having various issues. And then we can kind of say like, these are things that appear to be there, or these are things that we want to think about that could produce that. And then you all come in and like develop legitimate puzzle pieces and put the rest of the thing together. And it is, it's like a, It's like a little awakening, unfortunately, because you, but it's also peaceful because if you've been sick for a long time and it doesn't make sense. What hope. And then you're able to.

Speaker 02: 14:37

Yeah, all of a sudden,my God, it never felt so hopeless till now. And now I'm understanding it. It makes sense. And then the doctor collaborates with the IEP. Then we get the right medical clearance of a remediator, which are far and few in America, trust me. And then we talk about mechanical company understanding. And then we go into a build back contractor. All have to work under an engineering control and harmony. you're absolutely right. It's a game changer. If you have this team approach and we make a difference in every life that we can meet.

Speaker 01: 15:05

So, yeah, let's talk about choosing the team. We kind of talked about testing and like some testing that an IEP should be like able to do. They're going to discern and figure out what your house needs, but they can do all these sorts of things. But what should clients be looking for when they're hiring? And, and what is like a cost range or time? Are there like some easy benchmarks where they could say, this guy said he's only going to be there a half hour, probably not a thorough versus whatever that may be. Right. Yeah.

Speaker 02: 15:31

So starting on the top, we always get on the clinical side, we'll get a referral from you guys. So the doc is on top of the totem pole, right? The IEP comes in on an average assessment, three to four hours, maybe longer, maybe shorter, but I'm always longer because there's a lot of education to be talked about. And then from this assessment, you develop a protocol, a work plan that you hand off to a And that could be encompassing a lot of parts of the home. It could be a basement ad. It could be very simple, but that's something that has to be a directive followed to the T. And as you know, results-driven, evidence-based, right? So we hand it off. It goes right to the remediator. Remediator is qualified, understands, accepts the process. And then we look at, okay, there's mechanical work, always mechanical work, duct cleaning, duct removal. There's upgrades to systems, purification. So you want to have that recommendation. Now, Again, tough. These guys are trained from schooling to come in and make it hot and cold. I want to teach and talk about indoor air quality and purification. So that's another facet that can go into days or weeks to assemble, right? And then at the end, you're going to put back maybe new insulation, fix that basement and the attic. And just, you know, you have another component that they got to understand how to work within. And that could be, again, additional couple of weeks. So I try to explain to people who crawl, walk, run four to six weeks after we say hello on my end, I'll make recommendations, suggestions, products, come up with solutions to reduce the low burden because this is a daunting space, Elizabeth. It costs so much money. People don't know who to believe, what to hear, social media. I mean, it's just crazy. So I try to create a roadmap and I try to hand off each step of the way as best I can. And hopefully there is no disconnect, but it is daunting, but we have to have a clearer picture and it starts from the IEP controlling that process I believe in my opinion introductions again separate companies we're all play nice in the sandbox as I say but we have to be on the same team for the client so at the end of the day we need to have a suitable condition and we call that a condition one fungal and bacteria ecology so you can begin to heal start your treatment process and do as best as you can in your indoor environment otherwise it's a step forward two step backwards and that's what we hear all the time I'm sure it's for frustrating for you guys. Why are you not getting better? What is the issue? You've got to look and go deeper into the thick of the weeds, as we said.

Speaker 01: 18:07

Quick break. If you've been curious about homeopathy, this is your sign to try it. At HeyHey Homeopathics, we've created liquid remedies for everything from sleep and skin to digestion and beyond. Safe, gentle, and designed for real life. And if you're a practitioner, our preferred professionals line opens the door to powerful tools like nosodes, miasms, detoxers, and more. Anyone can shop, but professionals can apply for exclusive access. Visit HeyHeyHomeopathics.com and start your path to natural healing today. Yeah, I think their remediation plan is something that I wish I could literally just throw a couple up on our website and be like, here, go look at what is turned out from working with an IEP who is good and skilled because it's the key to reducing overwhelm because you get this very itemized map, clear, highest priority to least priority. It's got directions on what needs to be done, how it needs to be done. It has directions on how the people who are doing it need to care for their own bodies. And the finished reports are really, I mean, they cover like where you found it and testing and things like that. But it's not just like, there's mold, that's the end of the road. Like it really takes the overwhelmed part out. It gives you, it is like just one of the most valuable consulting experiences. Because it like, it gives you exactly what you need in a really stressful, emotional kind of, you know, feel good. So that doesn't help either environment. But when clients are hiring, is it okay for them to like ask to see a sample of a finished report from the person who may be inspecting for them and like any qualifications or certifications they should be looking for?

Speaker 02: 19:42

Oh, absolutely. And that's the problem here. There's less than a handful of states in America that require certifications at all to walk in as an assessor, right? So what you need to do is you need to understand some backgrounds. You have to look. ACAC.org, a very good old entity that board certifies a lot of us professionals, right? So that's the number one. I like to associate myself with. And then understanding state regulations. Out of New York is the strictest certified there. And then nationally, you'll gain some more recognition. And then I like to also do a lot of research and begin to publish and work alongside of professionals like yourself to kind of be a little different when I ring your doorbell, right? But it's really important to understand certifications, background, and the experiences that you come from. Clients are always asking for, hey, do you have a I mean, are they suffering? I just feel no one gets this, and I'm alone, and nobody believes me. So it's good to have all these credentials ahead of time. I always send out what to expect on assessment day and what to understand. Try to be as transparent as you can. But certification, yeah, it's very minimal. And the guidance industry standards are even worse, right? There's really not a lot out there. We follow IICRC standards, various levels, and that's how an IEP can operate on that. under. And then you can go a little further on the medical side. Like I've been constantly doing just so I can get the accreditation and I walk in your home. And it's always not about, you know, a dollars and cents. It's about the education and getting the right experience. So yeah, it's tough for this, but to say exactly where there's not many States, less than five, I believe in America, it's pretty sad. You realize it.

Speaker 01: 21:29

Yeah. It is because it's such a huge problem. Like the mold itself or indoor air quality is such a problem, but then also like there are so many people that are ill from old. And even the people that drive me the wildest are the ones who've been misled and who have done remediations that didn't work and they're still sick. But I mean, that's a big thing for us too, is if they're not hiring you or one of the other people we refer to is like, can you talk to this person? Do you feel like you're learning from them? Do you feel like they're approachable and patient with you? Because a lot of our clients are so ill too, that their memory, their short-term memory, their word finding, their communication, like you need someone who can be patient and educate and really connect the dots for you um and not just somebody who's gonna check you off the list and say exactly you're here

Speaker 02: 22:16

yeah you can't right and for me it's about empathy understanding and putting people putting your place in their shoes right and i really take the time handhold and i spend way too much time i know and it's hard to keep some you do i won't have it any other way and i'll just learn to adjust but so many people have experiences you to learn about. I got to have all my homework ahead of time. I got to know about you, know about your exposure, what's important to you and family and hear about everything. So we do wear many hats as a professional. You do, but we have to be there for them. And that's the key here.

Speaker 01: 22:50

Yeah.

Speaker 02: 22:52

Yeah. I'm sorry. I was going to say, I don't go to work. I ring doorbells and change lives. That's my motto.

Speaker 01: 22:57

I mean, it's true though. Like if someone, I mean, I can, I can think of so many of our families who can attest to that because it was like one family in particular that's here in Kentucky. we're seeing three kids and mom also very ill in very different ways. They'd been to lots of different practitioners. They'd done traditional stuff. They'd done other holistic practitioners, medical doctors who just like weren't seeing it. And once they had an inspection and we started working together, like now the kid's going to the bathroom who wasn't, the rashes are gone, like the itching, everyone's sleeping now. Like it can be really profound if you think about the impact on multiple members of a family's like day-to-day function. So-

Speaker 02: 23:35

Yeah, it's huge. We moved the needle for sure.

Speaker 01: 23:39

Yeah, yeah. So I think we maybe don't even need to ask this question, but I'm going to anyways. If someone can afford only one step, an ERMI or an inspection, where should they be starting?

Speaker 02: 23:49

With me, the assessment. I want to teach the homeowner, the family, the person about their indoor environment, starting from the outside and in. And I'll teach them about the rest. I help them with the testing methods, right? It's all about the education first, right? And you want to understand your own home Right. Has its own indoor biome. And you got to understand that. And I'll do that. And then, yeah, it's always good to get a PCR analysis. Air and surface is great. Again, don't get me wrong, but I want to know geniuses. I want to know definitive, finite levels. And I can start from there. But yeah, I like to start with the assessment on my end. And then I help lead and teach them where they can learn about resources, testing and labs and guys like you and samples and laboratories. That's where they'll really help themselves. because it's costly. It is outrageous what this field costs to people. So that bothers me. So I try to be a little different that way and talk about education first and let you look at finance a second.

Speaker 01: 24:50

Can you tell me more about the microbiome of the home? Because I think that's a really important conversation. I feel like you discussed that well. And just the idea even that the home has that because our clients are used to understanding their own microbiome and learning about it. But what does that mean in a house?

Speaker 02: 25:07

Very important. For us, the house is a living human organism to us, right? We're trying to understand where the influences are. And you're going to realize the conditioned space is only about half of your home, right? We have a basement, an attic. They're not conditioned to live in, but you know what's in there? Your air handler, your ventilation system that is not in a conducive space. So it could produce some concerns in your indoor environment, right? We call that all part of the biome. So what we're trying to understand now is how do we get a equal balance, right? How do we understand to condition these spaces to a conducive level, whether it's dehumidification, natural air movement to convection air movement in an attic, or again, crawl space, we want to and create somewhat of a similar habitat, not to live in, but we can't have humidity levels, right? We're also concerned about a stack house effect, right? As below, so above. We have air exchanges and we have influences throughout our home. You got to have these unconditioned areas controlled first. Then we look at ventilation. We look at filtration. How are we changing the air? How are we maintaining everything? And that is the best key for an optimal indoor bio. But then I hear, well, We did remediation. Mold's going to come in. We're going to have the same problem, but not so. You're going to remove the source or you're controlling your sources. Now your indoor biome is going to be in flux constantly, but it's not going to grow. It's not going to inflame if you have these unconditioned areas under control. So we teach about inspecting and quarterly checks in an attic, look at basements, crawl spaces, and make sure dehumidification's between a certain range. So when this education is given, people totally understand, like you said, It's now just as important as my own personal biome that I'm living with. And I teach them to check it 60 days, 90 days, twice a year. What are you living with? What flare ups? Why do you have that allergy? Why do you all of a sudden you have a skin issue? Or I hear hair loss. I hear every element of a human body. Let's look at what's your life. We work at home. I travel and work's a concern. So now you'll start to understand first your home environment. And then they take this knowledge and move on with it. It's very important. And that's a great question to understand into a biome.

Speaker 01: 27:23

It is really interesting, like how much learning about your house. I mean, it sounds so simple, but it's so important. And like being able to understand, you know, we buy a house, we have like a normal inspection done. You're like, okay, there's no big red flags. We can buy the thing. Yay. We have a house. Now we're going to take care of it for 30, 40 years. And there's so many things I think that we've learned in this process, even to think about not just your home, but like the spaces you frequent. We talk so much about mold in school with families because kids are exposed to an their schools. But I mean, we recently had a client where they farm and there's mold in the main barn where they're doing a lot of processing and stuff. And if they had not understood, had a good understanding of how mold and air moves in the home, it never would have dawned on them to kind of engage us when we said, what other spaces does he work in? Oh, in the barn? Oh, the barn is closed a lot and he gets worse in the winter. Like, you know, like the-

Speaker 02: 28:16

Two and two together starts to add up. Yeah, you're very smart to do that. And that's what we teach them to think about and reduce the load burden. And you understand the body follows, right? And you know that we're very resilient human beings, but we're very susceptible at different levels, whether you methylate detox, which you guys are good at understanding what patients will send them my way. Let me see where that cup is filling up from. And that's the goal here. Got to understand the indoor areas you're in. That was very smart. Talk about

Speaker 01: 28:43

that. The quantity part is huge. And like, I think what's interesting to me too, I mean, a lot of it's kind of logical, but not. A lot of times we think it's just mold coming from water or damage or water damage. And that's it. So sometimes we'll say, have you ever, has your basement leak? Have you had water? No, we've never had any of those things. Okay, cool. But like so much of it is air. And that for me was something that like, I mean, I guess it's basic and it's obvious, but air moves spores around. Airflow is really important. And when inspectors don't inspect an HVAC, we get very like, because like air moving through a home really matters. So Can you tell us more, just kind of like the basic logic or things that when you think about around air moving through a home and how that interacts with mold in a house?

Speaker 02: 29:28

It's big time because we look at airflow, is it hot or cold? And you know, it's never evenly distributed. And more importantly, we look at the design elements of the system, right? You have a return and a supply, very simple. But nine out of 10 times, people don't understand when I open up a return vent, there's no duct work behind it, right? A lot of these homes throughout the years were built with an open return design or a partial duct design with panning material or different foil boards and are using a chase between the floor and the wall to deliver air to the air handler. You should see they don't know that. It's been built like that for years. I'll open it up and what a presentation. So the airflow is key to understand air changes per hour. Very important to understand that we move air, clean it, return it, sealed as possible, and filtered as high as possible, and we interject purification as needed. But we see the indicators. Elizabeth, the moist and rich environments are key to put this story together. And that's how you're going to figure this out. The window check rails, the toilet tank lids, underneath vanities and cabinets, windows, sinks, all gives us colonization hint. Keep finding it and you'll have enough. Oh, it's airborne. I'm going to find it in your source, which is the air handler in a basement, not heated and cooled to live in like you. And we open it up and look at the fan assembly, the evaporator coil, and there it is. And that's the root cause of these problems that you're talking about. I didn't have any water leaks. I don't know of anything, but my ventilation system has been causing the airborne issue for years, we hear, right? So that's how it's very important to understand the mechanical. I always leave it to the end, but it proves out the assessment and it does show true. It

Speaker 01: 31:15

makes me think of a family that I worked with a couple of years ago. They were in Miami and they actually left there because they're a mold. They moved to South Carolina and the little kids just were sick, sick all the time. I mean, they get better, but then it would like, it just kept coming back around and they'd had an inspection done on the house, but the HVAC was not inspected. And you just mentioned kind of like some of the steps of what you'll do, like swabbing coils and looking at the air handlers. And for them, it was the duct work was run through the attic and it's, it's obviously very hot in South Carolina parts of the year. And so that work, that area was not conditioned. And so you have cold air running through the ducts and a hot environment and the condensation in there, I think, you know, created a lot of the mold. But if someone isn't having the HVAC well inspected and the thing that got me with them was HVAC company had inspected their HVAC for mold, like second, like separate from the mold inspection that was not done by you. It was not done well, but I didn't see anything. Yeah. Yeah. They didn't, I didn't see anything. And I'm like, well, did they even go in the attic? Did they look in there that quick? Like what is the difference between kind of like how you approach it versus Versus maybe how an HVAC company would, which that may be good and fine and well, but when our people are so sick, we need like the whole, we need to

Speaker 02: 32:31

know the whole deal. But what is that? sticking to the ductwork, right? And then we'll further go into the system. I can scope it. I can do an incredible amount of analysis, but I do know where it's going to end up. It's going to be into the filter housing, fan assembly that spins and spins. That's where it builds up for years, but we have to open up everything and we have to understand first, is it really the root cause? And that's why the assessment shows it, right? So the key indicators is looking for the hints in the environment, with a flashlight, looking at your register grills, your returns, exhaust fans, windows, sometimes a culture dust. And you'll say, wow, what does that look like? Where do those spots come from? Right? It's airborne. And then keep looking and you're going to begin to see, oh yeah, look, now I see black dots on my supplier, my return. And then as well, you're going to see their hammer being a culprit. And that's the key to understand. But you have to dissect every step of the way. Can't skip anything.

Speaker 01: 33:46

I think too, the education of understanding how like an HVAC system works and like what the components are. Like until I had mold issue in a past house, I had no idea. Like I just changed my filter. That was my job. I didn't know any of the rest of it and learning how that happens so that we can think too about like, how do you prevent moisture from being involved here? Or how do we prevent growth from happening? Because it is an air handler, but there is a natural part of it is that there's humidity involved in that. I mean, it's conditioning. That's what it is. Yeah.

Speaker 02: 34:19

Yeah. And it turns into other sensitive issues where bacterias can culture on the dust. If you don't clean it up or change your filter enough, another level of layer that we're getting to correlate and learn about, right? Sick building and illness, sick building syndrome in a larger building. I've seen a lot of, it has to do with airflow. It's airborne, guys. And we do have water intrusion events, but most of it is airborne through a ventilation system that we pick up on. I

Speaker 01: 34:47

think that's a big one too, when people feel like they don't feel great at work because that'll happen sometimes we'll have clients we'll go through the house stuff and like far as we can tell there's really no flags and then we'll start talking about work and they're like on the weekend I feel great during the week not so great and a lot of times you know I can think of a couple clients who work in a you know kind of like a strip mall space that was thrown up and maybe those can be fine sometimes but the air handling between the spaces and how each space is maintained like they can all affect one another because of the HVAC system and And also, you know, you go into plenty of buildings and you see like water stains on the ceiling. There's sometimes obvious things, but the air piece, because I'll ask at work, like, has there ever been flooding here? No, no, none of that. But the HVAC part is the

Speaker 02: 35:33

common thread. Big time. And you're going to understand in a building totally different. They got a variable air volume design. They don't have filters above the ceiling. And that's where the air is being returned from. Totally different ventilation design. And that's why I slew of people, or if you're in a cubicle, And you may get crossed a cough or a sneeze. It goes in the air and gets returned. It's a very interesting office buildings when we look at it. So yeah, there's a lot of, exactly.

Speaker 01: 36:03

Yeah. Sometimes we need to know what we need to know to function, but sometimes I don't know some of this stuff. I wish I didn't know, but yeah, I'll think twice. So once somebody has their report and they've, we figured out where the mold is, we have the direction. Now they have to hire remediation team. So we're on to that. expense number two. And this is definitely, I mean, you've got the expense of the people doing it and just the pure expense of all the stuff that has to happen. So I think an easy basic one is like, why should the remediation team be separate from the inspector? Like, let's just cover that point blank.

Speaker 02: 36:35

Sure. So, you know, you can think of ethical reasons. You can think of being in cahoots or, hey, I see a problem. You wouldn't know because you're trusting the guy, but I'll remediate it three to 500 bucks and it'll be gone. You want to keep that separate Again, it's all about the results-driven process. So for me, you set a standard and you should be certified separately to clean that up, right? Engineering control knowledge, removing with natural materials, right? Not using a biocide or a chemical if need be. So it's very important to understand your tradecraft, right? And it takes a lot to do this, right? When you do clearances that you could be asking for, or we have a lot of compromised individuals, it's not just compromise. Thank you. It shouldn't be the same company that could do both. And a lot of states don't prevent that. Few do, but you can test and remediate in a lot of states. And so you got to understand who you're dealing with, right? And the skill set for the most part. Keep it separate.

Speaker 01: 38:06

And it's tough to understand who you're dealing with. I think it's kind of the same as when you build a house and you're like, well, are they a good person? But like, there's a lot more people building houses. You have more odds of getting feedback from past clients. And this feels not quite like that to me. But another obvious question I have, I guess, is like, should a remediator follow the inspection recommendations? Like, exactly. Is that something that we should be expecting for them to do? Or is there room for a mediator to come and say, no, you don't really need to do that. Yeah, that's another

Speaker 02: 38:50

great question because we're going to set guidance. We're going to create a standard. But what I see is the biggest problem is not having effective engineering controls, right? I'm not going to tell you in tradecraft. I'm not going to tell you how to do your work. I'm just going to give you step-by-step how to do it, right? In a sense of performance, right? And then from there, clear the type of agent you want to use, whether it's a hydrogen peroxide, a microbial wash, other light scented chemicals. But we're staying away from biocides just because of reactivity. But I leave it up to the remediator to understand the IICRC S520 guidelines, S590 for doing mechanical reform. And they set the standards. You know what to do. You know the process. And that's the difference. when you hire the right remediator. But I'm setting a work plan, right? Not to tell you how to do it, but I'm going to give you A through Z. And the end goal is we're going to do a post-remediation verification test to check your work, right? And you always confirm with the IEP, the hygienist, the assessor, each step of the way you're not careful about. The goal is to set up everyone for success if you choose the right people. And that's the team approach here. But yeah, it's very important that we don't do the job job for them, but we set the guidelines and set them up for success and work in tandem with the client because there's sensitivities or there's financial restrictions, right? And that's another huge part. What if I can't do all this? What do we... You have to understand reducing the load burden, every step of the way is key. Do the best you can and work as a team to be most effective. And that's the key here, Elizabeth, is to be together, you know, work as a team.

Speaker 01: 40:31

Yeah, it's really overwhelming, but there are lots of strategies that we can use in the meantime. Sometimes clients can chew, you know, bite off and chew a little bit of their remediation, get like the hot spots out. And then in the waiting while they're saving to do maybe a next phase, there are things that can be done to reduce the load. And I think that that's, I feel like in the mold space in general, just the greater internet mold space. I feel like it's really important in the wellness community that we do acknowledge that complete removal of all mold is the absolute goal for the most healthy environment. And also we're all people. And there are realistic limitations sometimes with money and time and resources and reducing load is really important. And I think a value that we see so much with you is that you're able to meet clients there and prioritize and like be the rain. So it's like, hey, look, this part with what you have going on physically, it has got to be addressed. But this part we could maybe push back a little or, you know, do it in a bit. I think that's important. But what about tools and practices? We should be looking. to like know the remediator is doing. I think of like HEPA and containment and things like that, that the remediation team really needs to be very clear are gonna be part of their process.

Speaker 02: 41:41

Big time. And that's the first two sentences in every part of a protocol I write about engineering controls, removing areas, isolation containment, critical barriers, and you're gonna set up negative air. You wanna exchange air. You wanna work in a bubble to remediate as well as put back, right? You want to be able to maintain the dispersion of your product, whatever you're doing, whether it's cleaning, cutting, applying, right? So engineering controls are huge, right? And you must understand that. And there's a lot that goes into that. And that's a lot of training also that you should understand to so much that states require licensing, right? But again, not everyone, but following these guidelines is the success here. But you got to have from air scrub and negative air machining, you got to monitor these containments, right? And they may have to stay up for weeks depending on the scope, right? Some people got to leave their home, right? So you really got to understand how to control cross-contamination and how to maintain a clean workspace. So it's the key to success is the engineering controls and the expertise behind it.

Speaker 01: 42:49

Yeah, I think that part is sometimes shocking to clients because they're like, wait a minute, we can't, they're just not going to like cut it out and just like, maybe sometimes they come into it like a remodel mindset. Like they're just going to come in, put it out, get us a new dry water. That's honestly such a small part of the job. The containing and covering things off and making sure you're not getting any of that mold into the air handling once it's... Because once you cut something open, we can be dispersing mold spores and bacteria and stuff too. And that part is almost just way more important than even someone who's just going to do good building work in

Speaker 02: 43:23

this circumstance. It's 30 to 40% of the process. Believe it or not, it takes a tremendous amount to prep and to prepare a work site than to tear down, right? So you can see the value there. Or if you see the difference, my God, this guy is 10 times more. When you start breaking down apples to apples, people start to pick it apart. And yeah, you get what you pay for, but you got to understand this process, right? Really depends on your sensitivities and your nature of your project too. I try to help people to understand, can I do this myself? Very handy. Can I do the fine particle wipe down? Can I do the HEPA vacuum? Can I cut out some of these steps to reduce the cost? I said, well, engineering controls under containment makes this most successful and you may not have that capability. Or again, I'm still going to do it. I want to know what to do. I just can't afford it, but I got to do something. And again, try to explain them the do's and don'ts. But again, best efforts. Can't tell somebody not to do it. You can just make the recommendations and set the education to follow and the steps.

Speaker 01: 44:25

We always try to explain to clients, like it's like painting, not exactly the same, but like if you're going to paint yourself real quick on the week can and do it without taping in what like you're gonna get the painting job that you put the effort in for versus if you hire a professional painter who really masks things out is very particular very careful new brushes everything's clean you're getting a totally different end product and that really is the difference in choosing your remediation team who like

Speaker 02: 44:50

and we find it more exactly we find it more on the medical side or that you know they know they're exposed right they know they've seen the mold that they know they just can't trust anyone to come out because they're going to get worse. They tried it. I might go through this two, three times. I see that a lot. It's not one and done for a lot of people. That's another problem is getting the right process and the right treatment. Unfortunately, it's not there yet.

Speaker 01: 45:15

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Speaker 02: 46:03

Yeah. So nobody should come in to be inspecting, right? First, I would say the main conversation is when you have a remediator, where's your work plan? Do you have a protocol? Where's your report? They're not there to diagnose. They're there to execute, right? And that's how you can tell somebody who's going to be on board the right way. Because a lot of these guys may sidestep the requirement because they don't know it. They don't know how to do the engineering control. So the key is they're to follow a lead, right? And that's the hygienist, assessor, expert, whoever you're using. They set the standards. That's the number one key to look out for is that they're not coming in to give you an estimate on to where's that and how do we go about it. It's like, here's what's been written. Here's your protocol. Here's what's required from your hygienist. Is it an air and swab clearance? Is it PCR? Is it we have to do full containment here? And then we have to understand that you can't be in the house. So they need to follow a directive. And that's key to having the right remediator come into your home. Otherwise, you lose control. And then you're at the mercy of their expertise, which you know is not much at that point because they're not there to think. They're just there to execute based on we do the thinking, we do the analysis, we validate or dismiss, right? Now it's their turn to execute a plan that we write. Great question.

Speaker 01: 47:27

How long should remediation take? And I mean, like, I know it's different for everyone, but what should we be expecting when someone says, like, this is how long involved remediation is going to be for your house

Speaker 02: 47:40

Yeah. And it's based on the scope, obviously, right? But us as professionals, and it's only, I don't know of any other state in New York, we have an Article 32, I have to give you budgets and timeframes and estimations. So we're known as professionals to help you prepare for this, right? So for instance, if we have Cape Cod, right, and we have a standard, there's not a lot of attic space, that's not a good example. Let's do a bi-level or a split, and you have an attic over half of it. It may be three to five days, and we may have to put a value of, say, seven to 10 grand I put that in the report, right? So I try to be accurate. So you know you have a jumping off point. It may not be exact, but it's going to be a range, right? And it's going to give you a day, 7 to 10 days, 15 to 20, 21 plus. So we have different levels. We judge small, medium, and large. Let's keep it simple and stupid. And let's put a value, expectations. Great to say a little more. My God, I can't afford that. But let's get estimates and let's break it down because you need full transparency. And then you can can help measure. But I do range it, right? And we have mechanical jobs, right? One day to clean, one day to replace. Maybe it's two to three days. So I always leave with expectations on that. I always try to measure, well, what are we looking at? Do we got to leave our home? The doctor says it just could be the magnesium we don't know. And that's why we need to understand. And not a lot of professionals have these answers. So when you have guidance and you're really following the process, you'll help person like yourself, not knowing to be more educated and probably a little bit more respectful to the process. Cause that's huge. But yeah, I always put dates, ranges and cost values in the reports.

Speaker 01: 49:41

I think that's so important because you say all the time and care that you can only manage what's measured, like just as a general principle in life. And really like you can only manage the process. Like you can only know if you can do it. You can only know if someone's going to do it well. If you're, if you have a map of like kind of clear exact, you know, It's going to be this much. It's going to be this many days. This is what you should be looking for. So back to why choosing an IEP really is a very large key that unlocks a successful project or keeps it unattainable. Because without that information, the IEP really is the brains of the operation, the guidance. It's kind of like your litmus test on how this is going to go. It can really dictate the whole outcome, whether it's good or bad.

Speaker 02: 50:27

Yeah, and it's huge under Understand the skill set. The key is having that professional experience in the background with just about an umpteenth amount of experience. So very important.

Speaker 01: 50:45

What does post-remediation testing look like? And that's something you are doing or they are doing?

Speaker 02: 50:52

So always recommend in the protocol that you do a follow-up analysis, right? post-remediation verification testing, industry standard PRB. So most people are going to clear for air and surface. So that's an air sample of the remediated area under containment. There's an air sample as a control outside of the containment, depending on the type and part of the house. And then we'll do an outside control as a baseline comparison to make sure the outdoor molds is not the influence to the inside. If there's more molds outside than inside, Then we know it's an outdoor problem. You're okay inside is a successful clear. If you have a lot of mold in the air and you kind of know indicator mold should be there to begin with, and the outside is a baseline to begin with, then you know that you may have to continue to clean, right? We want to make sure that we have less mold indoor than we do outside of our containment area. So it's very important to understand air clearances, right? With an air sample, runs for five minutes, by the way, very unique, low volume. pump, and we have a cartridge. It's called a spore trap. Very unique. A little bit bigger than a half a dollar. And it sits on this machine, runs for five minutes, and let's catch what's in the air in these organisms, and we count them. And that's how we understand what our species are, if there's anything left. On the surface side, Elizabeth, a little more stringent, right? You better make sure you agitate, clean, microbial wash, vacuum, and if you have to encapsulate, that you're removing everything. thing because these tests will pick it up. Same thing goes to the lab and we're going to count species. But there is no control normally. We just look at that confined area. Did you remove the surface? Did you follow the steps that were laid out? And this PRV will give you that clearance level. And if you pass, we issue a clearance letter. If you fail, we ask you to do it again, depending what the levels are, right? Rescrub the air for another 24, 48 hours. Or you know what? You need to agitate that two by four or more, and you need to clean it and recapsulate or whatever was done, you need to redo that area, right? And I photograph all these spaces so you know the potential success and failure of these areas, so you know you're going to concentrate on what I looked at, especially, right? I do take a random composite average of these areas, but very important to do this, by the way. Even on a small level or on a larger level, say the whole house, the whole second floor, three bathrooms, basement, you had a water, you had a flood, you're clearing the multiple areas, not just with one swab or air. Very important. This is the final step of the results-driven process is to clear your home. You restored a condition, one fungal ecology, and now you can build back. Now you can restore, re-insulate, wiring, sheetrock, whatever had to be removed. So it's a very important process. Great question.

Speaker 01: 53:51

Why do you find some clients don't get better after remediation? Like when something's not gone well in the process, like what do you usually find? So

Speaker 02: 53:59

what we're finding is a poor assessment, not finding all the root causes or the sources in combination with a botched remediation job, right? Is it 50-50? Is it more? I don't know, but I'm going to lean towards more is that the remediator isn't trained enough and didn't understand how to control their work site. That's the failure of air and surface, right? They don't know how to control it. They dislodged it, dispersed it. They went on the other side or it's still in the air you didn't scrub it enough i got a failure so it's on the remediation side if it's long term and you went through it well maybe you didn't have that deep dive assessment thorough enough to understand there's still activity there's still a potential source between the walls you didn't use the right equipment maybe moisture mapping infrared scoping moisture meters pin meters right we'll go on and on with our arsenal equipment so you really want to make sure you know you can take the assessment out but now let's look at the remediation Yeah, we probably didn't have the smartest guy or you know what? We had to choose based on what we had available. And those are the answers to the question. It's usually remediation. It's the experience or lack of knowledge and controls.

Speaker 01: 55:13

What about in homes? This is kind of secondary to that and maybe, you know, back to where we started, but what about homes that have been flipped or they've been renovated and we've had clients find stuff in a newly built home? Like what are some common problems in in those situations that are keeping them from being clean, if you will.

Speaker 02: 55:32

Yeah. So funny term, lipstick on a pig, right? They paint over everything. Use kills paint, scrape it. You're not going to see it ready for sale, right? They just put band-aids, it's coatings. The problem is a lot of things are painted over. You're trained and if you understand, it'll come through pretty quickly. Or if you're covering a shelf underneath the sink with contact paper or some kind of barrier, right? And you walk into a home or you're looking at a home and it's heavily scented, right? Or you see how a basement's painted and it's, you know, not the way you think it should be painted. There's so many giveaways that unfortunately they do put a lot of coverings on these problems. They band-aid it. And that's the key that most people are not educated in and don't realize. And behind the scenes, plumbing work, ventilation work, pipes aren't sealed, not vented properly is another key. And I just had a client tell me, we bought a lemon of a house. What do we do? We can't go anywhere. It's how do we reduce the load burden without stripping our walls? It's almost heartbreaking to tell them the best we can do is change the air, reduce the load burden, but we can't get to the source because you would never be able to handle that remediation picture, right? Well, I'm going to tell you to fully gut your home, replumb, electric, duct work is disconnected. It's horrible to say. You brought up a great question. This is so apparent. We can just help reduce the load burden. It's a big problem out there.

Speaker 01: 56:57

It is interesting. Years ago, I lived in a home that had mold and this was probably at the very beginning of my own health journey. And I had all of those things that you said, pipes were unsealed. They were not vented appropriately. There was even some venting issues in the bathroom that was causing like septic air to somehow get sucked back in talking about airflow. So it wasn't just mold, but it was like, you know, like the toxic chemical bacterial portion from a septic system. And then there had been a little wooden box built around a pipe. that they couldn't get to stop leaking. And so the box just covered it up, but inside of the box, it was like a box of mold.

Speaker 02: 57:34

I'm never surprised what Band-Aids put on and how they try to remedy the problem to hide it or to ignore it. Yeah.

Speaker 01: 57:41

The integrity. Like I could never, not for one second in my life, build a box around a leaking something and be like, I will now sell it, even though you're all going to be sick when I just, I can't with it. I guess it's ignorance, but probably not. Maybe, I don't know. But kind of wrapping up things, I kind of want to hear just from you experience and all that you've seen like key or main advice for a client just starting this process especially for like the emotional financial overwhelm piece what would you say to families who are just really terrified by stories the costs and just the process itself

Speaker 02: 58:14

yeah you know the idea is to work a plan right understand what you have in front of you can teach you some tricks if you look at a home or if you want to understand are you living with a problem right take a flashlight, Elizabeth. It's very simple. You walk around, you look at your filter, look at the windowsills, the check rails, look at your sinks, and look at anything that's odd. And lo and behold, you're like, yeah, this doesn't seem right. And I noticed it more and more. I got to stop ignoring it. But by doing some simple tricks, whether you look at a place, moving into a dorm, or you're visiting grandma's house and things are just not right, this is the indicator. Some easy, simple tips is that the changes you see visually should be a red light for you of concern to ask a question, to think about, hey, we got to do something here. There's more to what we see here. Where's the root cause or what's the problem here? And it's just to come up with a plan to understand that. Don't get overwhelmed. There's an answer, but we got to figure out what's causing it. Nobody understands the root cause of it. And we just want a Band-Aid. We just want to treat a symptom and make a repair, right? Like you just explained, we don't want to understand the aftermath. But if I could tell anyone who walking in the home, pay attention to your airflow, to those dust reservoirs. All of a sudden, they'll get dots and black and I got fog and I got in between glass, I see this, something's going on. Don't ignore it, right? So it's just being aware and kind of working a plan. And you're going to say, well, where do you get this knowledge from? Is there a resource out there? Try Googling all this and how to look at a home and how to be aware of how does mold form. You'll find a lot of guidance, but you got to apply it to your own home. You got to look at your own living conditions, right? Dusty cleaning is huge. You got to stay on top of your indoor environment with load burden, dust reduction, cleaning, vacuuming, pets, no pets. This is the key. These become host reservoirs and you'll see. My goal is just try to get out there and create a narrative for this, a handout on a website that you can understand, stop, think, and look, right? And that's it. And you'll get a better feel of your environment. And I think you'll understand it could be real and it could be concerning to you at some point.

Speaker 01: 1:00:34

In some ways, it's easy once you understand some of these concepts and the stop, look, and think part is really huge because we're all living our lives and doing things and taking care of families. And yeah, it's so easy to just look, go just overlook something and not think about it. But a lot of it is kind of logical if we take a minute to stop, look, and think.

Speaker 02: 1:00:55

We don't. And I'm guilty. We're all guilty. So I got to pay attention to that. Or I got to understand what that drip or that leaky faucet, or, you know what, why is that black? And it's not eventually get around to it. It's like, okay, I got to do it. That's the tip

Speaker 01: 1:01:08

of the iceberg. What's the biggest myth about mold inspections that you want people to stop believing?

Speaker 02: 1:01:16

So it's no big deal. We all, we live with mold. It's everywhere. And you know, family's not on board with somebody not feeling as well. And you live right next to them or you sleep right next to them. All molds are potentially toxic. We just have to understand, like I said, where they come from and how do we understand to control it or what we should be doing and pay attention to. And it's not yet recognized. Look at the health insurance industry. Look at just getting recognized through a lot of doctors to understand and don't know what you know in your practice that it is relevant and it's important not to ignore it. But doing the inspection You got to understand every home in America will fail my inspection, Elizabeth. Is it at a level that could be correlatable to your concern? That's the key. And I defuse every, let's say, not compliant person who wants to be part of the assessment. They're kind of ignorant, tuned out. They don't want me there. But, and I say, listen, I'm not here for anything but education. And I'm going to tell you, you're going to fail this assessment, but let's see if it's a level of concern that we're talking about, that your doctor's concern. heard about. Or you yourself can't stop sneezing. You have headaches. You can't sleep. Let's just validate or dismiss it. So once I kind of dummy it down and be more practical and very empathetic and understanding, have a cup of coffee. And that's why I take hours on my assessments because I'm going to learn everything about you. And I'm going to get you to that point where I'm a believer, but you're going to understand that, yeah, I have a different outlook now. And I respect what you do because we would never know otherwise. I hear that all the time. And it's a wealth of information that you should have to help your client. But that's the key is knowledge.

Speaker 01: 1:03:02

You mentioned that part where like sometimes one person in the house is sick and the person who doesn't necessarily agree with the concept is sleeping next to them. So someone's partner isn't on board with inspection remediation. What's the most compelling evidence or explanation that you or they could share or use to get some movement maybe, if you will?

Speaker 02: 1:03:24

So I usually turn every single person I meet, right? I take my time. I talk about studies, families. I talk about sharing actual assessment data, right? I do a digital note card. I'm going to explain to you something. Or I'm going to share and people give me authorization. I said, you could speak to this person, right? The husband was not on board, but they understood that the contents were the source and we had to get rid of it. Well, I want to clean it and keep it. But yet when I tested it, I'll explain that to them. But a lot of times I'm lucky enough to follow a practitioner where they know their loved one, or we have a child that is exposed from something in there that they'll respect my talents. They'll see that I'm not there in and out on an hour or doing air and surf. There's no problem here. And pay me $8.95, right? No, it doesn't work that way. So I usually went over by taking time, the experience, and being just like them and understanding. And I adopt them over time. I treat them as family because I'm going to teach them as well. And I want to study from them. And I leave everyone with the last statement. I do this because you need to help them next family tomorrow I'm going to meet that's just like you. Doesn't understand. Doesn't know. And not a believer. But yet, you're going to be a raving fan because you're going to understand what it should have, could have. We're going to avoid. I'm going to teach you about your home. So we really have an important job. And I really give everybody, and I get along with everyone, but I really give everyone enough of information that they can see. Never pressure. You're not required to test. And if you want to learn about it, I'll talk to you about the labs and do it. But you've got to understand the methods in means. We have a unique analysis, my skill set and building tradesmen. I tell you everything about a home inside and out and the problems. That's why I left the industry and started this journey. So I turn everyone, Elizabeth. So I'm not, I'm not a good answer for you, but I do come across it a lot, but I educate

Speaker 01: 1:05:16

them. It's very similar to what we do. You know, we'll have one, usually the wife is more open to like a crunchy mindset or root cause stuff or not using pharmaceuticals. And over time, The proof is in the pudding. When you spend time with someone, when you care for them, when you see them get better, like there's just evidence that's just irrefutable. Like this stuff costs money and it's expensive and it's time and effort. But at the end of the day, to watch someone go from really ill to better than they've ever been before, you really can't argue with that. It just takes a little time. It

Speaker 02: 1:05:50

does. And it helps save a lot of patients. And besides that, your reputation and what you're known for, I'm here to sit down and get to know you. I'm not out. I got three appointments on one day. I live at your house for the day. Breakfast, lunch, dinner, if need be, right? I'm there for you and give you that education. You're never going to realize you need it. And when you're done, oh my God, it's like this amazing thing. I just meet so many incredible people in this country, all over the world, do it virtually too. I just try to give enough that you understand the realistic approach, right? And I'm not here to sell you anything, force anything, but just to get you on board that this could be a correlation. or triggering to what you're dealing with. So like yourself.

Speaker 01: 1:06:30

It's just education, really. There's so many things that we don't know. And there's so many things that you're not going to learn in life until you come across a situation where you have to know. I always say that about our body. There are plenty of things that we were never taught by our parents or whoever about how to take care of your body. But once you understand that, you're like, oh yeah, it's easy. I should have done it before. Now I'm really grateful for this education. And I think what you offer to our clients is that education, a lot of clarity and clarity is really kind. Like knowing exactly what they have going on, knowing exactly what the plan is one step at a time. That is all very kind and like the best service that we could give somebody in this. I wear many hats,

Speaker 02: 1:07:10

right? I like to be that house dog. I never said I'm not licensed to treat you, but I'll tell you. And I learned a lot from dogs. I like to be that psychologist. I'll sit, we'll have a cup of tea. Sometimes we cry. Sometimes it's stay for pizza. I just got to know more. I mean, it's just amazing. Like I said, it's a journey. I never considerate work that I get to meet somebody. Hours later, it's just an incredible relationship that will unfold for weeks, months, and years. It's just amazing. And we're just helping. We're just guiding the right way. It's the way we should be doing it in medicine or any professional. Develop your tradecraft and care about one another, and my God, it'd be a difference. And that's why we're successful. That's what we're

Speaker 01: 1:07:50

doing, for sure. Very true. Well, I think this is great, and I love that we have just reiterated over and over again that a thorough inspection is the foundation for effective remediation for effective health outcomes and like we can't cut corners we've got to take that detailed inspection that helps us know that the home can truly become a safe place for the body to heal because it's possible that the quality of that inspection and direction is really is really the key so where can our listeners find you joe and learn more about your work or how to hire you or get in touch with you and learn from you

Speaker 02: 1:08:23

sure i'm developing a nice landing page of information which i'll I'm up and I'll send to you shortly. It's supposed to be done this weekend. I'm a little behind. I'm always available. I like to answer every call myself. You can find me on the ICIA website. I do the East Coast, but I travel the country and I try to be affordable. And obviously my email, what I try to do is just answer the phone, give you some comfort, understand your position, and then try to help you and look at ways that are best. So I'm pretty well out there in various areas. platforms, but the best way cell phone, email, and soon the landing page. So you can really put in your story and I'll be there to help you.

Speaker 01: 1:09:06

Yeah. And listeners, you can always reach out to our practice too. And we can get you connected with Joe. We've got all his contact info. And I think I just want to reiterate too, because we've seen so many clients use you and like we see clients all over the country in different parts of the country and that the affordability part. And like, we've even had multiple clients in one area, all have inspections at the same time. So that when you travel there, you're just working your way through. And so don't think like, oh, he's going to literally travel from New Jersey to me. That sounds insane. Oh, yeah. It's really not. It can be super affordable. And like we said, a really quality, excellent, specific, clear inspection worth everybody. So totally worth it. But I thank you for being here. I think this is really tangible. So

Speaker 02: 1:09:50

honored to be considered to be part of the team and will help and further educate for anybody you refer to. And it's so important you just know the first steps to what's needed, like you say. Thank

Speaker 01: 1:10:00

you. Yeah. All right. Thanks, Joe. Thanks for listening. I hope you're leaving encouraged, curious, and hopeful. If you learned something, I'd love for you to share this episode with a friend. Hey, we're all healing together. You can learn more about my practice, our team, and what it's like to work with us at HeyHeyMay.com. I teach lots on Instagram and answer questions each Monday. My Instagram handle is at HeyHeyElizabethMay. You can watch these episodes and more on our YouTube channel at HeyHeyMay. Learn about and enjoy our homeopathic line at HeyHeyHomeopathics.com. Happy healing.