BONUS Book Club: Frozen River

October's Book Club pick was Hailey's and she joined me (Morgan) today to talk all about it while Bailey is out on podcast maternity leave! 

In this episode, we talked about Ariel Lawhon's Frozen River. We covered SO many topics, including women in healthcare, sexual abuse, discrimination, family relationships, marriage, and so much more!

If you liked this episode, please let us know! If you read Frozen River, we want to hear your thoughts as well--drop a comment!

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Don't forget to check out Shared Shelves Book Club pod!

Transcript

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All right, I'll go 1, 2, 3, and we can go. Welcome to the Fill Your Cubs podcast. Okay. We're your hosts, Morgan and Hailey. Okay. 1, 2, 3. Welcome to the Fill Your Cubs podcast. We're your hosts, Morgan and Hailey. Hello everybody. Today is a bonus book club episode. Usually at this point Bailey g blah, but today I have Hailey with me, so this is a fun one because this month's book we went, or we read Frozen River. Mm-hmm. And it was Hailey's book Choice. And since Bailey's out on podcast maternity leave, I thought it would be fun to bring Hailey on since you got to choose it. Yes. And. It was, it was a really interesting book. It was intense. It was intense. Yeah. It was intense. Very intense. Yeah. Yeah. And honestly, pretty highly rated in the group too. Yeah. Yeah. So I think it was like a 3.7 overall is what it ended up being. Oh, in the group. Okay. Yeah.. Do you know what it was on Goodreads? Good reads? I think because I felt I was living on Fable when I had it, which I dunno if it's different. I think it was a four point something. I was gonna say. Say I felt like it was really highly, highly rated. Yeah. On it was pretty good. Good reads. And I, that was something, when I saw it, I was like, oh, this is probably a big reason that you chose it.'cause it was a 4.38 really high. Oh wow. Yeah. That is really high. Okay. Really, really high. Yeah. And I just realized I never rated it, so I'm gonna do that. But, but yeah. So really good book. It was So Frozen River by Ariel Law. L-A-W-H-O-N. Lowen. Lowen. I Lowen, I'm gonna say LA. Good. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So I would like, I mean, since you're the one that chose it Yeah. And we have you on this time. I would love to hear how you selected it. Yeah. So we, gosh, it was probably April or May I think when I was looking at it. I had a patient, I'm a physical therapist. Um, and so I was talking to a patient. I've talked to multiple patients about books, but when they're doing things, people like it a lot more. When you talk to them about stuff they like, instead of me just reading them, uh, hurt and not have fun, so we talk about whatever. But there was one lady in particular and she had read the Measure, which is another book we read back in May. Yeah, I think that was in May. I think so, because that was our picnic book club. Yes. Yes. So it was before that. But I was talking to her about it and she had read it prior and uh, we were going through like. You know, what should I pick? Mine's not until I think October, September pick. And so I was like, I'm not sure what to do. Maybe I should start looking now. And so we were looking, I was just like going through Amazon while I was monitoring her, doing her exercise. But I was going through Amazon, I was looking through and I showed her this one. She was like, I like that. She's like, maybe that will be my next pick.'cause I was just talking or like showing her different ones and we were going over and um, yeah. So I've had it like bookmarked since I think April. Wow. Because it was before we talked about the measure, but I was actually, so I think it was April. Yeah. Is when it was April early. Would you say you would classify this one as historical fiction, right? Yeah, I would say historical fiction, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Which was so interesting because, so we did our bonus book club episode on Broken Country. Mm-hmm. For last month. Mm-hmm. And they, these two, the setting was very similar. Yeah. It was to where it was kind of back in the day. Mm-hmm. Both main characters were on a farm. Right. They were both. They were both wives. Mm-hmm. They both had like very devoted husbands. Yes. Oh gosh. And I mean, obviously the biggest difference mm-hmm. Was the, their profession. Right. You know? Right. But, but even some of the things of, oh, what's the main character's name in this again? Oh man. I know we both read quite a lot. Oh. I read like three books since then. I think. Same. Same. Yeah. So I'm terrible It It is Martha. So Martha, I wanted to say Mary. Yeah. Well, honestly, because it's from her point of view mm-hmm. They don't actually say her name that much. Yes. You know? Yes. Like I hear it in Efron's voice. Yeah. Like whenever it's Martha, I'm just like, oh, she's in trouble. Yeah. Martha. Yeah, I know. At some point he's like, I thought better of you, or something like that, but, which I have feelings on that part, but I also understand. Oh yeah. But yeah. But it was interesting because, so Martha, like a lot of her homesteading mm-hmm. Stuff was really similar to the last main character. Mm-hmm. You know, so it was really interesting. But the stories. Vastly different, I feel like. Yes. Yes.'cause this one centered around Martha. Mm-hmm. Primarily as a midwife. Right. And around, I think it just was a commentary on women in general. Mm-hmm. And women in society especially in that at that time. Absolutely. Yeah. So, yeah, I really, really, I thought it was really thought provoking. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And very intense. Yes. And a little hard to read, to be honest. Oh, no, no, no. Some of them were definitely tough. Gosh, I read, I put, I picked the women last year and I was going through this one. I was at my mom's house and I was talking to her about it.'cause I was like, mom, I think you would love this one. Uh, my mom, like, I definitely got a lot of my reading, like especially historical fiction, women's health, that kind of stuff from my mom. Yeah. Because she's so, she loves that kind of stuff. Like she is all about, like, our whole thing growing up of, with my mom was like women empowerment, fem type stuff stuff. Oh, I love it. My mom is. Shout out mom. Um, but that her big thing and why I love it too, was anything with us growing up. She always said like. Have a man that you love, but do not depend on him. Like, don't do that kind of stuff. Okay. Yeah. Find something for you. Love that. And I loved Martha. I love female characters that that's their main thing. And so, because she had her own thing. Yeah. And so I love that. And you know, the women, it gets a little rough in some parts, but I got that, I was talking to her and I was like, mom chose another one, like real female empowerment type stuff. And I was like, but this one is so good. And I was like, but I chose another like kind of hard read Yeah. For everybody. And I was like, it's not as long as the women. Yeah. And she's like, it's okay. She's like, I think like,'cause she hasn't read it, so I didn't wanna give parts away. And I was like, I can't tell you why, like certain things. But there's like some stuff in there that's like kind of hard. And yeah, she was like, it's okay. She was like, if they're gonna read it or not. And she's like, maybe just give like a shout out to the like moms or anything too. Yeah. And I hadn't gotten to the last part that, um, Shelby had since like a hey trigger warning.'cause there's FYI guys, there's no trigger warnings. At the beginning of this book, there are some trigger warnings. There's no, there are, there are not. Okay. I didn't see any at that front. Yeah, there are, yeah. And people that listen to the book club episodes mm-hmm. Know that we talk about spoilers anyway. Right. Okay. But the trigger, like, yeah, there's not trigger warnings at the beginning. Mm-hmm. But there really should. Yeah. I didn't realize, I don't know that there should be necessarily. Mm-hmm. But just that I honestly like the hardest part wa was like the rape scene. Yes, yes. And I think it's the, she gets not terribly graphic or terrible, but very like visual. You can feel yourself if you have had that experience before, you can kind of feel yourself in that moment is kind of what I experienced. And I was just like, my heart was racing. I was flying through the pages. Oh. And my husband was like, are you like,'cause I, when I get really excited, I like sit forward, oh, and something's happening. And he was like, oh God, what's happening in the book? And I was like. And I was like, this is rough. So I was kind of like rolling through it. Um, and so, yeah, Shelby, uh, uh, brought that up and I hadn't gotten to that point yet, yet. But then afterwards I was just like, whew, that was good. But like, man, there's some things in there. And my mom was like, oh, let me see. Like I don't see a trigger warning on there. She's like, that's interesting.'cause you would think a book this like big uhhuh, which is, you know, like you said, I don't think it's anything enough that's not like in a thriller book that they might Right. Talk about like gut spilling out Yeah. Or something in there or all that. But it can be like triggering for people who have had the experience. Yes. You know, it's so interesting. Trigger warnings. Mm-hmm. Because Bailey and I were just talking about this mm-hmm. Like a day or two ago where she was. Opening, uh, it's called If it Makes You Happy, this like rom comy fall vibe book that I just bought recently. Oh. And I bought it because I wanted a Fall Vibes book. Mm-hmm. And I was just feeling impulsive. Right. And so I see the cover, it's totally Gilmore Girl's as there's a dog on the cover, there's fall leaves. What more do I need? I bought it. And so in the, but in the beginning there's, it's, it's talk, it gives content warnings. Mm-hmm. And there's this little note and it says, here's some content warnings. And one, and they're like, cheating parent dying from a heart attack. Um, interesting. Like just some very broad general things. Mm-hmm. That like, I almost feel like one of them was like heartbreak or something. Like something very, yeah. Interesting. I, and obviously some of them, and I read this book, I would tell you that it probably needed zero trigger warnings. Yeah. Yeah. When you're actually going here, it was a full rom-com. It was not. Intense at all. Like it there were interesting. Yeah. I mean, like there were heightened emotions, Uhhuh, but, but there were probably 12 adultery I think was on there or something like that. Yeah. Like there were like 12 different trigger warnings. Mm-hmm. And Bailey and I, Bailey was like, man, we've gotten so soft in society. Like he guys Yeah. Because there is, there's a balance, right? Yes. Like sometimes it is, sometimes you do like mm-hmm. Just for the sake of mental health. I love, yeah. I love that we acknowledge that. It's good to like prepare someone Right. And get someone a heads up so that they can avoid that. Mm-hmm. If they don't want to move forward in it. Mm-hmm. Or reading it or watching it or whatever. Mm-hmm. But then at the same time, it's like, okay, do you really have to, do you really have to put like cheating on there, you know? Right, right. Is that really gonna trigger somebody like to have a psychological like meltdown? Right. I mean, it may be hurtful and it might bring up past memories, but it's interesting to know'cause like that it's so funny, like this book had zero trigger warnings. Yeah. And the scenes were way more intense. Mm-hmm. I thought, and then this other book has like 12 trigger warnings that like really, I don't think it needed it at all. Right, right. And so it just, I think it's probably up to the author's discretion. Yeah. Yeah. But I, I did think that was interesting. Mm-hmm. And was this, is this a newer book or an older 2023 I think is when it came. 2022. 2023. So it's not anything. Yeah. I, I agree. Like I think there could be things on there. I think if you. Read it. You know, it's in the late 17 hundreds. It is when like slaves were still 100% a thing. It's when women had little to zero rights. Like even in this book, that was one thing that like some of the girls called on of like, no way this girl would've survived Sassing. Yeah. Some of the people the way it was, and like, no way would she have gotten away with that. Yeah. And you know, but then there are certain things too of, you know, we're talking about multiple births. We're talking about Yes. Like, like children dying during birth, that kind of thing too. I think if you're getting through the book, like you just, this is a hard book regardless. Yeah. And so if you wanna think that, and it even has it on there too. I think on the description it said like, a woman had been raped. Okay. And two men. And so it's just like, that's enough, you know? Yeah. If you're okay picking up a book, regardless of if you have anything, I think. It goes through the whole thing of like, it's your discretion. No one's forcing you to pick up the book. No one's telling you to do that. Of Yes, it is like a, a kind thing to do for people who have had that. Mm-hmm. And for people to feel safer in environments. Yeah. For things too, of being able to pick up a book and feel like they can do it. Mm-hmm. But like I have, there's an author, Emily McIntyre McIn. I think sounds right. And so she wrote, yeah, she wrote like the, like never after series is what it's called. Okay. And it's like six different books. And it's like from the villain's perspective of different Disney movies. Yes. Things are spicy. Oh my gosh, they're good. I need to read these books. They're spicy, they're fantastic, I love them. Um, but she put on the thing, she was like, for the sake of like certain things, I don't wanna give anything away. If you need a trigger warning list, you can go to my website. Okay. Is what she had. And so, but looking put on there, she put like, listen, this is not like a cute little retelling making Captain Hook seem nice. This is like, this is like morally gray, like screwed up people. And this is their Yeah. It's not their origin story. It's a like a retelling uhhuh. So it is like modern day, way different. I love it. Yeah. It's just like a couple names and stuff like that. And so, but she has on there, she was like, if you need it. It's there. Yeah. But like we all know, like coming into this book and if you've read one of my other books, you know, like, I'm not gonna hold back on things. Yeah. And so it's just like, so then there when you, a moment when, when you talked about this series before, it always reminds me of that show Once Upon a Time. Yes. You know what I'm, yes. Oh my goodness. Yes. And Captain Hook, especially in that show, is like, yes. Dreamy. So, so I always think about that when you talk about those books. You would like the first, the first book is called Hooked and you would love it. Yes, it is. So yes, we've talked about this. I need to read this. We just love men who are Down bad for their women, honestly. Yeah. Which is how Affirm was in this book. Mm-hmm. I adored their relationship. I think especially coming off of Broken Country mm-hmm. Where Frank was so great. Mm-hmm. Didn't get that reciprocated. Yes. Seeing their marriage being so wholesome and just mm-hmm. Exactly how you said. Mm-hmm. Uh, from loving her so much, but her not being dependent on him and having her own. Yeah. You know, I, I really, really loved that. I did think it sucked that, like, I, I really, I hated that he had to leave, I know that was written in there because I mean, that was a device in the book mm-hmm. To, for, to cause some like apprehension about him not getting back before the trial and whatnot. Totally thought he was gonna die. So, and everybody thought that we all, like, there was no way she made him too lovable, too terror. Yeah. Like, too fantastic. I actually never like, predicted that he was gonna die really? Now. Mm-hmm. Now, looking back, I, I'm like, I would've been even more devastated because I wasn't seeing that coming. Mm-hmm. You know? Mm-hmm. But I, I, yeah, I really loved their relationship. I thought it was really. Sweet. And it's, it was good to see the reciprocal part of it after the last book, you know? Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. But I, I did think that it was interesting her, like different relationships with her kids mm-hmm. And whatnot. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I don't know how you felt about that. Um, especially like we were just talking about you have a brother who has a disability. Mm-hmm. And, um, Cyrus has like a disability. Yeah. Obviously not to the extreme that we were talking about with your brother. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. But, um, how did it, like, how did you do with like reading about that relationship? Loved, I loved it. I thought it was so cute. I think, you know, being a parent, I only have the one right now, but I think, you know, my niece, she lived with us first couple years of her life. It was just me, my sister, my mom, and her uhhuh. And so there was little things of like, we would pick up, like my sister was going through a lot. We would do what we could. So it felt like that was my baby. Yeah. Of like, not that my sister wasn't. Totally single momming it like a badass on her own. Oh. Um, but it was little things that we would get through and we would have. Yeah. And so like the love I have for her Yeah. Feeling like she was just my own little precious baby, like you will have for Mila Uhhuh because your niece is, love for a niece is like such a different ballgame. Yes. And you don't have to do any disciplining, so it's great. That's so true. But um, the love I have for her and then going in like my niece is wild. She is going to do such amazing things. No person can stop. Insane. And then now going with my daughter, she's so quiet. She's to herself, she is lovable and there's such different relationships and such like intense love I feel for them of, I know one isn't my child, but she feels like she's always been mine too. Yeah. But they're just different. And so, but it's so different. And it's the same way too, I feel like even for what I have for my different siblings. Yeah. If I have an older brother and he's in his thirties and. He is emotional like I am. Yeah. And stuff like that. And my dad is, we, we all have the same dad, but different moms on some of us. And so my older brother has a different mom than me and like seeing the relationship my dad has with him versus what I have, like my dad's good at trying to level off. Mm-hmm. Like some of the things and they haven't always been super close. And then going same to my little brother who's got special needs. Like all of us are just obsessed with him as you should be. Yeah. And so, but I feel like my parents have done a really good job. Like my stepmom especially and my dad have done a great job trying to delineate the differences with that. Yeah. So yeah, I was always super lovable and cuddly and obsessed with my little brother. My sister was not lovable and Yeah. Yeah. And so I felt like they such a, you have to like tailor to the different words. Yeah. And so, but I think that's like such a beauty with parenting is those like amazing parents can do that. Yeah. And you can see the differences but not feel like. Jealous about it. Yeah. Of like, I never felt my brother needed more attention. Uhhuh. I never felt like jealous of that. Yeah.'cause that's what he needed. But I also felt like we got equal amounts of what they could handle. Yeah. And same thing just with my mom and my sister that felt like in this book, honestly, I feel like she had it good of like all the things. Yeah. And I felt like they were both really good about that. I mean, it definitely seemed like Martha took more of the, more of the parental role. Yes. Than E, like he still was present. Mm-hmm. And available. And protective too. Yeah. Very protective. I did feel like something I really liked about his character was that he wasn't, he had reactions to what happened, but he wasn't reactive. Mm-hmm. If that makes sense. Mm-hmm. He didn't act on his. Feelings or emotions, like he definitely had them. Yeah. Like Martha would tell him something that Yes happened with the kids and he'd be like, what? You know? Right. But then he would kind of respect what her method of dealing with it was. Yes. You know? But yeah. I feel like what you're describing mm-hmm. Like works really well in your family. Mm-hmm. I feel like they did really well. Oh my gosh. Yeah. With this family, what, what were they? The Ballards maybe? Ballards. Yeah. Okay. And so I thought they did really good. I think RAI was amazing at like holding, like helping her hold her ground and the way in getting to different decisions she needed to make of like he would be there and just kind of like, I think there was times where he would like stop and think and just kind of like be quiet and let her just like talk through mm-hmm. What she needed to. Yeah. And I think that was helpful for her. Even the same thing of when he felt. Like he needed to say something, he would Yeah. But it was, it was a few words. Yeah. You said you had feelings about I, I, yeah. So tell, tell me about that.'cause at some point he was like, you know, I thought better of you, Martha. Mm-hmm. Like, he was disappointed in her Right. Because she didn't give the tonic or whatever it was. Right. For the woman mm-hmm. That had the migraines. Right. And she was married to the, the judge or whatever. Yucky judge. Yeah. And so I, yeah. I can't remember what his name was, but mm-hmm. But she was married to the really mean judge mm-hmm. Who was just terrible. Right. And never got better. Like he had no redemptive qualities about it. No, no. He was terrible. And yeah, she, I think her name was like Ingrid or something. She, yeah. His wife. Mm-hmm. Was it something like that? It was something like that? I think so. Yeah. And she just fully backed him up, even though mm-hmm. I mean, she knows he's a terrible person. Yes, yes. But she, but she would fully back him up. Right. Even though. Some of the instances that she was backing up mm-hmm. She may not even have been present for or awake for or whatever. Right. Right. So then Martha refuses to give her this tonic to help with her horrible migraine. Right, right. Debilitating and rim's Really? Mm-hmm. Disappointed in you. Right. So you said you had feeling Yeah, I, I, I loved it. Okay. And so in the way of like, him saying that of, I absolutely hated the wife, like, I thought she was terrible. Mm-hmm. I thought, I mean, but also too, it comes to the point of like, things I see in my own profession of people are just a whole other monster when they hurt. Mm-hmm. Of they don't care. Like it is a whole other thing of I see, I was gonna ask Yeah. Like you having a medical background mm-hmm. Because you're, what's the, isn't there like a doctrine or something? It's like the Yeah. They have it. Law of medicine or whatever it is. Right. That like, you are in, you are, you ha you're obligated to help when someone's in mm-hmm. Physical need or whatever. Or needs medical attention. Yes. Yes. And that was some, that was something that like to me, I'm maybe a little bit more morally ambiguous. Right, right. I don't need help her. She didn't need to do that. No, it was, it was, but she, but she was in the line of medicine and at some point she does realize that and she's like, I should do better. And she brings her the tonic, right. Or whatever it is. Medicine. Right. Um, but I was curious how you felt about that with that. It was, it was hard at first when she did it, I was like, hell yeah. Don't give it to her. And then I was like, wait, this, she is, who knows where she was at? Yeah. She was probably laying in bed for two or three days. And that's such a hard thing too. We do, I, I think doctors of medicine, I'm a doctor of pt, so ours is a little different, but the main thing is we are learn. We learn all these ways. To help people. We can do the exact reverse if we wanted to. I know how that's crazy to easily paralyze somebody and the things that go through, you learn every nerve, don't make the enemy of Hailey. Okay. But it's things like that they do tell you because you learn all these ways to help people. You know the exact ways it can go wrong and how easily it can go wrong and how easily you could just avoid that, let that per, like there are if like there's been plenty of cases of like, yeah, we can do this one thing, but this is a lot of work and we know just like this infection will just take this person out and let them go. Yeah. And or things like that of, I can't say as much for medical doctors, but for us, like it's, for some people really getting them better of if you have any spine issues. Mm-hmm. Any like neuro issues, stuff like that. Mm-hmm. So traumatic brain injuries. Um. Anything. Mm-hmm. Like if you have a aneurysm, stuff like that. It's a lot, a lot, a lot. A lot of work. Yeah. And so anything and, and migraines are a whole different ballgame.'cause there's just like hardly any research to fully understand what goes on with it. Yeah. And so, but the main thing is kind of, kind of like it was with COD, it's symptom relief is what it ishmm. And so you can look to kind of find different things, but it's so hard if you get those people, those patients who are just terrible and they're so rude. Yeah. And they're so awful and it's just so, you just wanna be like, you know what? You don't wanna get help. Go. Yeah. Yeah. And then, but then there's just things of, she is not the product of her husband's actions. Right? Yeah. And so, or she is like, the way she is acting now is a product of Yeah. But she is not what her husband does and that's such a hard thing. Yeah. Too of Yes. Like it is frustrating. But I did love for being able to immediately off the spot see that, because I wouldn't have immediately, my thing would've been like if that had been like my sister. Mm-hmm. And who had gotten raped by this guy. Yeah. And I had to go give her something to make his wife feel better. And his wife testified against my sister. Yeah. In court. That would be such a hard thing. Especially'cause now I could just be like, you can go see whatever other professional. You're not coming to see me. Uhhuh. Back then, that was the only person I had that an option. Yeah. That was all she had. And so it's just so hard I, I get it. But I did love the immediate, like how much his brain immediately went there. So I would probably need my husband to tell me and remind me. Shows. Yeah. It shows he is truly a justice seeker. Mm-hmm. You know? Mm-hmm. And that was something that they. They separated a lot of the men in the book. Mm-hmm. By that, like,'cause you could tell that, I mean, the Ballard men or whatever were very honorable. Mm-hmm. And just there was something innate in them Right. That was like, I want to do the right thing. Mm-hmm. And, and er was like that and he taught his boys that. Right. And then there were other characters like the nasty judge Yeah. Who like, he goes through war and he, he comes out with a different mm-hmm. Lesson, the life lesson here. Right. Isn't that I should do the right thing or I should do the just thing or the honorable thing. I, it the, it's that I should do the best thing for me. Right. And that I should do the best thing to come out on top, you know? Right. And so it was just so interesting, which I do feel like in general, men kind of like. Can, I don't know. Their motivations are so different. Yes. Um, I hate to like stereotype men versus women or anything. Yeah. Yeah. But just naturally mm-hmm. Because of the, like testosterone and stuff like that. Mm-hmm. Like there are just different motivations for men. Yeah. Yeah. And so it's like, you can use it for good or you can use it for men, you, that sort of thing. Yeah. But, yeah, it was, that was really interesting to me. And I, I really love a couple where like they hold each other accountable. Yes. And I felt like Martha and Effer were a really good example of that. And that's something that I really like.'cause well, no one will be surprised by this if they know Jared. Mm-hmm. But Jared definitely holds me accountable. He like, definitely questions me. Yeah. It's just his, it's just his personality to like question things whenever they're like. That's not right. Mm-hmm. You know, something like that. And so I, so I do think it's a good thing and I think it's better than just like letting your spouse do Right. Whatever. Mm-hmm. And like do the wrong thing, you know? Yeah, absolutely. Especially like when you disagree with it. Mm-hmm. So, I don't know, I really, really did like that. Mm-hmm. I felt so there was another, that was kind of a gray area, the situation with her. Yeah. Yeah. But I also felt like, okay, the situation with her friend who got raped and had the baby that from her, The one that the judge in, what's his name? Yes. That the trial was surrounding. Okay. Yes. Okay. So with her like really not wanting the baby. Mm-hmm. And honestly not even wanting to have the baby, I was like mm-hmm. I was kinda like, this is another intense gray area that this office talking about. Right. Oh my gosh. Yeah. Absolutely. I think she talked so hard on those difficult decisions of, you know, now this is going into. All the medical things are on abortion and stuff like that of whose choice is it? Should you have to carry that baby to turn, should you have to do these things? Yeah. And not to get into all that, but I think that was calling on it before you could of what do you do back then? You know? Then you're saying, was it fornication that you would charged for? Oh my God. Another thing, the men had nothing. The woman had to get charged for it. Like she just was a virgin, marry herself and made this baby on her own, but so stupid. It was just so frustrating and I think, I love the way the author called on all of those different things of back then of like mm-hmm. You know, new things coming out. You have no idea what to do. And I think that was such a hard one of, I would understand, I understood where she was coming from, of just the deep, like frustration, the hate, the anger. Yeah. Everything of I myself, I don't know if I could give up a baby, but I think that's coming into the whole moral obligation. As a healthcare worker, as something of it's not your choice, like it is your patient's choice. That at the end of the day, this is what it is. And I think, I think Martha was trying to see it through of like, Hey, you might regret this if the baby came to term. Mm-hmm. What would happen from there? How would you feel? Would you just instantly love it and be like, no, absolutely. This is like a product, something terrible, I can make it great. Or will she react the way she did? Yeah. And I think I loved Martha for not being like, no, this is your baby. Hold it. Love it. Do whatever of, yes, it's a human life and that should be respected. Mm-hmm. And finding something I loved Martha for, not just like tossing it in the river. Oh my God. Yeah. I was so scared. Which I knew Martha wouldn't, she threw in the river. I'm like, I know. I mean, and that's so hard. But I loved like, and Martha was such a strong character that I was like, there's like a chance that she would do that. She might just be like, okay, but what could I do and wanna go with the baby half otherwise of where's this baby gonna come from? I know. Yeah. You know. But then I loved, oh, I can't remember her name, but the one that took her,'cause she took her initially over there just because she knew. She would be able to feed the baby. Yeah. And that was the initial thing. Yeah. But then it seemed like instantly, like then we're calling in like adoption kind of of of going through know Yeah. Of working through of Martha. Like, okay, a first thing isn't to do this. Let's figure out someone else can help. And she was like, my thing was just to get the baby fed. Yeah. We could figure it out from there of, I fully think Martha and Re would've taken care of that baby. I think so too. And gone from there. Yeah. Or somebody would have like, you know, that could call into a question. There were probably other couples who couldn't get pregnant of Right. Things like that. Yeah. There was something that could have happened. And so I thought she like brought so many somehow into one book. Like so many little things of that, of like the power dynamics of a couple uhhuh. Like the things with your relationships with your family and what would Jonathan do with Sally? Yes, baby. If he had to be there for that baby. He, I think he was great, but do we have to be together? Do we have to get married? Uhhuh? All that kind of stuff. Like, I loved it and so, but it was so hard to read. Didn't, yeah. She did a really, really good job with. Introducing just lots of questions mm-hmm. That you naturally have through life. Right. And just showing that, I mean, it doesn't matter what timeframe it is. Mm-hmm. These questions are still gonna be asked. Right. And it still gonna, of course, like at that time there, there were just so many other things that were unfair. Yes. You know? Yes. And we're still working through some of those things now. Yeah. Yeah. Like the same thing with the doctor when he came in. Oh, that brought back so much irritation. Oh yeah. The doctor. Yeah. Like the Harvard doctor comes in and he is like, oh, well I'm a doctor of medicine and I'm graduated from Harvard or whatever. And she's like, okay, but have you ever delivered a baby? No. And then he kills three of them. I know. FYI guys, it doesn't matter where they got their degree. I can promise you of like it is experience, experience, experience, experience, yeah. Is the heaviest thing of Yes. You want to have the education. The education is important. I could tell you walking outta PT school, I could not ever. Just jump into a thing and be 100% ready. It comes from time. That's comes from why they're shadow's. Why shadow? That's why there's residency. I mean, that's why there's so much mm-hmm. Time that you're required to watch and practice.. Right. A book is not the same thing. Experience is so important. And I think the biggest thing too of then calls into the power dynamic of male versus female. Mm-hmm. Of, well he has this, he has this degree. I think regardless if a man had walked in without the degree or not her, everything she had would be called into question. Yeah. Um, like that's just what it is of, it's such a hard thing of then all the men getting to make decisions of, well, my husband called. Yeah. And you don't wanna irritate the husband. Right? Yeah. And so it's just like I. Never in my life would I jump to that. Like being a medical professional, 100% would jump to the nurse who has been working on a delivery floor for 30 years to deliver my baby. Right. Before I would jump to Okay. Harvard grad, who's never delivered a baby. Right. I never, even now still, yeah. Well, and he said something like what I just said about the practice thing. Mm-hmm. Like he had said well, it's a practice, Martha, like you have to practice. That's why it's called that. And she says, how dare you practice on your wife? Like, yes. I really, really liked that. Mm-hmm. Because he's like, well, yeah, you're gonna lose patience sometimes. And it's like, that's life. That's a, that's literally like a person's life, right? You can't just look at it so flippantly and like hold it with such little regard. Yes. You don't see your patients as practice. Yeah. I can tell you all the ones that. Multiple. I can still name off of things that just didn't, didn't work for them. It bothers me. I don't know where they are. Where they went. Yeah. What happened? They were hurting. I couldn't figure out what to do. What we were doing wasn't working. I called their doctors, I called their neurologist. I called all the things and it's so frustrating. Mm-hmm. But like you said, if it's a patient itself is not the practice. Now the practice, if it is, it is a practice, you have to get better. But your, his initial thought should have been, okay, let me watch her deliver this baby. Yeah. Like, I'm gonna come over and watch. I wanna see what you do. Yes. And let's see, of like, Hey, if you're can make this more sterile, if we can make this to where this mom might not be in as much pain, why don't we try this? Yeah. Instead of like dowsing them up with medication. Oh my God. His like entry into the book was when he just gives that pregnant woman and he says, oh yeah, pregnancy is harder for you'cause you're like high born or whatever. I'm like, oh my goodness. His, his entry to the book was terrible. I felt like it was really well done by the author. Mm-hmm. To just, you know, you're not gonna like him. No, it was awful. He's a villain. He's actually surprisingly not like the worst villain of the book. I know. Somehow, or even the second or third worst in some cases, but, but he was so terrible. Just so frustrating. Yeah. Just such a new know-it-all that actually knew nothing, you know? Mm-hmm. So, yeah, he was really, he was a really frustrating character. How did you feel? This is not related, but mm-hmm. How did you feel about the, like, kind of the climax with Martha and the judge mm-hmm. And the cutting off his penis thing? Like how did you feel about that? I felt like there were mixed opinions about that, right? In, in book club. Um, I, it seems so, like it was dramatic uhhuh. That's why like, it seems so like Hollywood, like this is like the big ending Yeah. On this big thing. But I think. As much as it is like looking back, if you had been in that situation, like how much I would've like loved to chop that dude's penis off. Yeah. And I was just like, it weirdly felt like such like a hell yes. Like this is what I wanted. Yeah. This is what people in that situation had wanted of like how much you like just look at them and you're like, you shouldn't even be able to use that ever again. Yeah. Like, you know, you being in prison doesn't change anything. You being out doesn't do anything. But if I know you can be out and you can't even use the thing uhhuh you want anymore. Yeah. Oh, I, I, part of me was like, yeah, cinematic masterpiece. But then another part was just like, okay, dramatic. But I knew as soon as they named that whatever it was, like that it was some kind of knife revenge or something they call, I was like, oh, this is gonna be on something. I was so scared someone would die with it. That Efron would like be her or somebody like Jonathan would use it on somebody. I was like, okay, where is this gonna be used?'cause as soon as like, I feel like an author named something. Yeah. Like the little fox. Which I feel like was unnecessary, but I'm back and forth with how I feel about the Fox. But yeah. Um, but I knew it would be on something and so, I mean, but it was just like, that was like the kind of the scary moment, I would say. The biggest like heightened Yes. Trigger warning, I guess in the book, towards the end of the whole thing. I, I thought it was. Smart, because I know they said like, oh my gosh, what's going on? It's going on. Well, she was trying to get him to keep talking. Yeah. Because she knew effer would be back at some point. Yeah. And so that's honestly, the only thing you can do in that situation is keep him talking, keep them off. You figuring out what you can do kind of by your time if you need to, maybe can calm'em down. Uhhuh, um, who knows how long, 50-year-old dude can laugh. So maybe she's seriously young. It could be something that is just like, yeah. And so, you know, it's one of those where it was like the whole time I was okay, he's still talking. Still talking. She's still backing up, she's getting closer. And I kind of like, felt like my heart was like racing. I was like, oh my gosh, what's gonna happen? I thought he was gonna, she was gonna like slit his throat or something. I thought so too. Yeah. I thought it was smart the way she thought of it as like a medical professional, you don't want him to die. Yeah. On the thing of Okay, yeah. Maybe it's dramatic to go for the penis. Yeah. Like he could have gone for like, cut an ankle. Now he can't walk, like go for the back of the leg. He can't stand or something. Or like cut his hip. Cut. I don't know anything. Yeah, you could have gone. But I was like, it's. Still, I liked it. As dramatic as I loved it. I did too, honestly. Yeah. I feel like people's issues with it was that it was for such a serious mm-hmm. Book and very technical book mm-hmm. In some ways that it was kind of cartoonish to like chop his dick off, you know? Right. But I loved it. I I did too. Like, I, I so much rather that happen mm-hmm. Than him die. Mm-hmm. And just because of the justice of Yes. Okay. Now you have to live without the thing that you have been using to abuse people for so long. Yeah. And'cause I mean, it just seemed like he was in the habit of mm-hmm. Of rap women, which is lord knows how much had happened beforehand. Legit. Yeah. Of him and that other dude too. It Yes. Was so frustrating, so disgusting, so frustrating. And I did like the time it was taking, he was explaining why he had done it too. Like all this for Indians. That's it. Or Native American people. Yeah. All this for Native American people. That was your hatred. So hard of just having like what I think they said like 13 times she brought in Native Americans into the town. Yeah. In the how many years or time it had been there. That is what inclined you to like rape her and do the what to me was so psychotic to me. Like he said that that was an ex, he said that that was a reason for it, but to me it was like he was at his core, he was a rapist. Oh, 100%. He wanted, he wanted that power. He wanted the power of. Sexually abusing a woman. Mm-hmm. And I feel like, yeah, he had definitely done it. Hi. Like in the past. Right. Because him, him being ready to do it to Martha, right in that moment, like that's when it switches and, and you're like, I mean, I think the whole time you believe that he's a rapist, but like nothing confirms it necessarily. Right. And except for the testimony. Mm-hmm. And but then in that moment it's like, wow. He's like actually kind of like, there's probably a pattern of this. Oh yeah. And so to me it felt like there were probably other victims of his that he made up some excuse, like the native of American thing. Like, oh, well she did this, she did that. Like whatever, this was inexcusable. Right. I had to teacher a lesson like whatever. And I, and that's. I felt like the, like, maybe he was actually that upset about the Native American thing. Mm-hmm. But I'm like, no, actually, he just at his core just wanted to abuse women. Right. And wanted to have the power over them sexually. I know. And so it was, yeah, I, I loved it. Like, I did feel like it was out of place for the, like this climactic scene. Right. Like, like you said, like the drama of it, the Hollywood of it, it was a little bit out of place for the way the rest of the book was written. Right. And like, the types of scenes that happened. Right. But I don't, I didn't, well, was she gonna do roundhouse kick him, like Yeah. Yeah. To me, I didn't care. I was like, I like this so much better than other ways that it could have gone. Mm-hmm. And I, and I did love. As cheesy as it is, I did love kind of the knight and shining armor like rem showing up. Yes, yes. I loved that the horse that booted her was kind of like the one that ended up saving her because he, that's how REM realizes something's wrong. Mm-hmm. And she's not on him. Mm-hmm. And has to go race to help her. Like, yes. I just, I loved it. I didn't mind that it was cheesy or corny or mm-hmm. Cartoonish or whatever, you know, but Right. I, but I did, I did feel like, yeah, it is a little bit different, right. Than the rest of the book. Mm-hmm. But, but I think that's okay. Like, I feel like she was making, the author was making a point at that point. Yeah. That was kind of where her voice was being like, she was showing her voice a little bit. Right. And I really liked it. I thought it was good. I thought, I mean, I enjoyed it. I, I love dramatics, you know me. Yeah. Anything that makes me feel, I love. Yeah. And so I love the dramatics of it. I thought it was interesting. I think it gave her a thing.'cause even though Ephraim came in, I think. True in the fashion of the book. She needed to be the one to save herself. Mm-hmm. In a way of, even though from helps, like it needed to be something of, again, now it's coming back to, yeah, this middle ground. If he was there to support her, he was there and he's like, okay, let's talk it through. What's going on? What do we do? Yes. And so it was never immediately at all, like, Martha, what are you doing with him? Blah da da da. It was like, oh my gosh. Like this something bad is happening. Yes, I know my wife, what's going on. But also Martha was able to do that herself. Yeah. Love that. No blend can be on anybody else. It was something that she was able to do. I did. I will say I did not like, um, that much her bringing the box with a penis in it too. Do Sarah. That part, I think, what's her name? I was like, I feel like I could have done without that. That was a little odd. Um, it was because I don't know how I would feel if I had been in that situation. Someone brought it to me. I'd be like. You can just tell me, like, you could just tell me you cut it off. It was such like, man move. Honestly, as much as we're saying, like, everyone sensitive and honorable and all this stuff. Mm-hmm. Like, only a guy would be like, oh, you know what will, you know what she'll really love is seeing his dick chopped off. Right. Like, and no woman would be like, I, I don't think, I think that if it was Martha, like she wouldn't have been like, oh, you know what we should do. Right. Wrap it up in a nice box and take it to like Right. I just don't, I just, he lost a baby, but now you gained his penis. Right. I, I think that's just like such a, um, male yes. Minded thing to do. Yeah. I guess, right. Like I feel like women would not think like, yeah. That's something that they'll appreciate, you know? Right. Like, part of me wonders if the judge tried to come back, I'd be like, I've got something important like hidden by the way. And unless she wanna see it and I like have it as a backup, tried to see like, no, she didn't, like how did I come to possess this? Oh my gosh. Part of me like that part I would be like maybe like pulling them hostage. Yes. Or what's that called? Um, it's like blackmailing. Yeah. Pretty much. I like, I would if he tried to say something again and like, get snippy with me and I'd be like, by the way, if you wanna stop by and see like this thing I acquired. Yeah. I have souvenir. Um, lemme know from the night of whatever day it was, you know,'cause I'm sorry he never said anything. Yeah. Any, it can be anywhere. Now he could say it happened in a freak accident somewhere. That's true. You can't say that if I hold this little thing in my hand. That's so true. Yeah. Which we all know is probably little, so I'm sure. Yeah. Yeah, I liked it a lot. I, I know. So I ended up reading it Four stars. Yeah. And that was because, so it was really hard for me to read. Mm-hmm. And I think, honestly, I've had, like, a lot of women give birth recently. Like I, yeah. Have, I don't know the, I don't have a hist, like, thank God I don't have a history of like sexual assault or rape or anything like that. Mm-hmm. But those scenes, there were like multiple scenes. And I did read the author's note and the main character that was testifying, I actually thought her name was like Rachel or something, but that sounds familiar. I'm, could be wrong. But she, she actually like in the history of the. Person, the midwife that Martha was based off of. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. In her journal, she had actually recorded that she had been raped three times in one week by three men, not two. It was just terrible. Oh my gosh. And so it was just really heavy for me. Yeah. And I felt like I wasn't in the right mind space, like to read it. Yeah. Yeah. So when I finished it, I felt like in my, my body felt like, oh, the, like a three star kind of, yeah. Yeah. But I was, but I was like, but I feel like in a different place in my, like in my reading journey. I would've probably given it five stars because I felt like it was so well written. Right. And I love the historical aspect of it. Mm-hmm. I love the how many questions it brought up, the depth that it, the depth and complexity of it. I felt like it was just really well done. Yes. And so I like met in the middle and gave it a four. Right, right. Um, but yeah, I, overall, I thought it was a great book. Mm-hmm. I just would probably tell someone before reading it, like Right. Read this whenever you want something that's gonna like, challenge you Yeah. And is gonna probably make you emotional and upset and is a little bit like deeper, you know? Right. Don't read this if you're in the mood for like a fun fall. I know Roman, last year we did the what? Pumpkin Spice Cafe. Yeah. This couldn't have been any more different. Yeah. I saw that. I was, because my mom was asking too, I was clearly, I talk to my mom all the time, but she was like, what cute one are you doing for yours? And I was like, oh, it's not a cute one. It's about a midwife and there's a rape in town and it's going through all. And she was like, oh. And she's like, aren't a couple of girls in your group having a baby? I was like, yeah, they're not gonna read this time around. I was like, that's good. Yeah. And so it worked, it did work out that it was a baby month for both, both of the ones that were pregnant because they, yeah. They had already been like, I'm not committed to reading a book this month, so, and they should not be. And I was like, this is, it'll be okay. So then going through, I was just like, whew. Yeah. Like the women person now this, and so next time it will be a, it was still so good though. Yeah. I mean, there were tons of fours and fives still. Mm-hmm. And I think a also, like, we haven't even talked about that there was like a murder. That was how it opened the book. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Um, was the person that drown, you know, that drowned? Mm-hmm. Well, they didn't drown. They got hanged. Yeah. They were hanged and then found in the river and all that. That was kind of how it opened. And to me it's. I feel like, you know, a book's really well done whenever there's a murder and that's the thing that you're honestly kind of least interested in. Yeah. Like there's all these other things going on. And I was like, honestly, at this point I don't even care what happened to this guy. Right. I like need to know what, what's gonna happen with this court case and what's gonna happen with like, the pregnant women mm-hmm. And the yeah. Just all of that. Oh, absolutely. And I think it was one of those things too of, um, yeah, that was the beginning part of it and trying to go through, but it was a thing of I don't, no one cared for justice for that dude. Mm-hmm. Like, you could have, it could have been every person in town conspiring and no one would've cared. Yeah. I would've been like, cool, that's great. Love that town for doing that, because he was terrible uhhuh. And so I think it was one of those of they who cared if he got justice. I was just curious because then I knew it wasn't Cyrus when they were saying it, and I just don't think Cy. I know. Yeah. That stupid. I was just like stupid. A sweet little boy. I wanted more for him in the end. I know. I wanted to hear him get something or someone if I, I was happy for. The one who was dating the like military guy. And he came back and How was Sally? Oh, I think Sally was Jonathan's okay. Oh, maybe Sarah. I don't know. And so whatever her name was, I was happy for her. I, I was happy he came back. Yeah. I thought it was sweet. Like a sweet ending of like, he has girls not just like loves sit crazy Uhhuh. She knew this man would come back. She believed in his promise. He did. Yeah. And she wasn't embarrassed of what she had done. Yeah. And I thought that was also like another great, like I feel like in another life that could have been Martha and Martha would've been like, I don't, I don't care. M will come back. Like we all know Ephraim and we know ER would come back. Right. And so I loved that for her. But I also appreciated too that it wasn't like, oh, this poor girl in this bad situation. She's kind of meh. So let's give her to the guy who's disabled. Right? Like I thought it was sweet of not, and not that she's less than because of what she had, but in the book they're portraying her as less than, so let's give her to the guy. Yeah. We think of as less than, right. But I wanted a little something for'em. But guessing with how it is of how they were saying, and back in the day, he probably would never have a family. Yeah. Which is heartbreaking, but, well, and a couple of girls in our group had recommended reading the author's note. Mm-hmm. Which I think, I think that more people in our group read the author's note this time than ever. Mm-hmm. Because people were saying that. Right. And so I read it as well. And one thing that they said was that in the, for the midwife that they based Martha off of in her journal. They cy her, one of her sons, Cyrus mm-hmm. Had never married. Mm-hmm. And they didn't really know why. Right. He never married and never had a family. They didn't really know why. Mm-hmm. They didn't know if it was because of a disability or something. Mm-hmm. So the author just kind of created that. Right. Just decided, okay, it's because he's mute. Because back in the day it could have been because you had a disability or it could have been because mm-hmm. You, I mean it could have been'cause you were mute or it could have been'cause you were paralyzed from the bottom down or it could have been all sorts of different things that reasons that you don't have a family. Right. And so she just kind of decided that that was gonna be the reason why. And I really liked that she kind of wrote in a little bit of a history of why too, with like the right. Not the plague, but whatever it was that they got, I think it was a plague. Okay. Okay. And so I think it was okay. Yeah. They call it something different, but they call it something different. But that's basically what it was. Yeah. But yeah. And so, so I did think that that was interesting. Mm-hmm. And I felt like based off of the author's note, she was true to them saying he never had anything. Right. So even though it was like sad, I think she was, I, it felt like the author was pretty committed to staying as close to mm-hmm. Martha's, you know, journal entries as she could. Right. So I liked, I did like that. Right. I didn't, I did want more for Cyrus as well. Mm-hmm. But also I do think that there, I think that there are people that can be happy. Yeah. Never having married and Yeah. And remaining with their parents. Yeah. And you know, that still is like a loving family home. Absolutely. Home for them. So, and. He will probably man the family farm like in the future, you know? So, which is true. Yeah. And so he probably needed the help Yeah. And everything. So, yeah. I really liked that. He wasn't like that. He was on mute, but he wasn't fully, I mean, he was very capable outside of that. Right. So, yeah. I, yeah, I, it would've been nice to see more for him, but Right. I did like that the author was kind of like, I wanted to be true to what was, what happened, so. Right. Yeah. I thought it, it all together ended well, I liked mm-hmm. Judge couldn't say anything again. Yeah. I gave it a five. I gave it a five star. You gave a five. Yeah. Yeah. I loved it. And so going through, I thought it was heavy, you know, there was like a like a hundred page spurt between like two and 300 pages where things were kind of slow for a little bit and you're like, Hey, what's going on? But I thought it was good for the buildup of everything. Yeah. Of, I think, you know, that was during the time where like rim had to go, like the judge was kinda like setting the scene for what was gonna go on. You were waiting for the court trial. Uhhuh, um. I actually didn't, trying to figure out what's going on with Jonathan. I actually didn't feel a lot of slow spots in this one. No, that's good. I think I read it in two or three days. Mm-hmm. And the, the thing that kept me the most from wanting to pick it up was just like, do I wanna be heartbroken today? I know every time I was getting through and I think I flew through it'cause I was like, where does em die? Oh my gosh. So I was so freaked out of, I was like, no one makes a male character this fantastic without her like in broken country where like it destroyed Frank. Yeah. Yeah. I knew I knew her. And I think that's like also calling on too of. Why I loved Martha so much is there wasn't like a doubt in my mind she wouldn't. But I also feel like it's because she, and then going too of like a woman being able to establish herself in something. Mm-hmm. And going through, I feel like when you both are established and what you wanna do in life, you know what you're doing. You both are strong. Yeah. People together. Mm-hmm. Of like of course. Yes. We all depend on each other for something. Mm-hmm. Of like, that's just human nature. That's who we are. Right. As people, we wouldn't be able to live in society if we didn't all do that. Like we'd all be off in our own little spaces ignoring each other. Yeah. But I think it was awesome and I think why it worked out so much better and why the relationship is because I feel like in Broken country, Frank came in and like saved her and it was just like, yeah, it's what it is. And yeah, I'll work on the farm. That's what I've got. And never like fully found herself. Like I feel like she found herself as a mother and that changed something. She felt like she settled and I feel like that's what it was. And I feel like for Martha, like I don't think it was possible for Martha to settle. Like she just wouldn't. Yeah. If she had her own, and not to take away from women who are at home and just finding their things and finding their peace with that. Yeah. But I, and that has nothing to do with it. I just think in that other book, she hadn't found herself. Yeah. And I think that in Broken Country, the song was more of a woman who did settle. Mm-hmm. And like kind of lived with some regret of her choices and whatnot. Right. Whereas I think that what I really liked about Frozen River was it felt like a story about women can do both, you know? Yes, absolutely.'cause she, it was very similar situation. Mm-hmm. Where she. Actually it wasn't, I forget that. In Frozen River they lead you to believe that she got pregnant with her abuser's baby for day. Yeah. Kind of. But it wasn't, but then it turns out she didn't. But she does marry young because of that scare. Yeah. And then, and like settles in with Frank and what, RO and one, whatnot. Same guy. Yeah. But she settles in with rum and whatnot. Mm-hmm. But then she does end up finding some something else. And I just loved that it showed you can do, like, you can do both if you want to. Right. You know, like that doesn't Absolutely. That doesn't have to be your story. There were other women in the book that didn't. Of course. Yeah. But it, you can, you know. Mm-hmm. You can find a passion and a career that you love or whatever. Mm-hmm. And also still be. A mom and a wife and a homesteader and whatever, you know? Absolutely. Yeah. I did really like that difference. Oh, for sure. It felt very, it felt like a very different statement about women's peace. Yeah. And I also felt like it was also rim too leading. A lot of it, him teaching her how to read was huge. he gave her that safe space. To grow and learn how to read and learn how to write and take her time for when she felt comfortable. Yeah. And I would love it. I love it. One of my favorite parts in the book was when he was like, it was funny the way I pictured him. He was just like naked behind her and she was like, he just does that. But then he was talking to her and being sweet and she's like, and this is why we had nine kids. I'm just like, I know. She's like, is it a wonder that I had nine children with this man? I'm like, like, get it girl. I hope I'm still so down bad. Like for my husband when I'm what? She was 50 I think. I think so. Yeah. And so 50 something and so I know I will be'cause he's great. But it's just one of those things where I just thought it was so precious of like, it's seemed in all phases of life. They both were there for each other. and that's why I love this book.'cause I felt like in all things I'm just like, man, if we had so many more of her and Rums back in that time, we would be like so much further ahead. I know, but it's okay. Like I love the fire of where we're at. Yeah. And, and doing what we do. I love this. Yeah, I love this bit too. I would definitely recommend it. Mm-hmm. I feel like it was, it was honestly tough.'cause I rated Broken Country a four as well. Mm-hmm. And I rated this a four, but I actually think I like this better mm-hmm. Than Broken Country. So I would probably recommend it before that one. Mm-hmm. Especially if you want a similar, now I probably wouldn't say like, read this for like to get fall vibes. I actually feel like this would've been a really good like December or January book. Yeah. Um. For me, like for what I like to read in different seasons of the year. Mm-hmm. But, but yeah, I loved it too. Yeah. I think it was a great pick. And I, and I, I know you're like, I always pick the hard hit, really sad books, but I love the hard hitters and I feel like in book club we go through so many different genres that it's good to have like every once in a while, like a really hard hitting one. Mm-hmm. Or like a really, you know, this one was very historical fiction. Yes. And I, yeah, I really, really liked it so I was into it. Yeah. We've got good diversity here. Yeah. That's why everyone should read in this, I guess. And so, well thank you so much for joining us. Is, was there any last thing you wanted to talk about with the book that we didn't cover? No, I think we got it. Okay. Yeah, we really went through it. Yeah. Well, um, next month we are reading the Academy by the Academy el, is it Ellen or Aaron? Ellen Hildebrand. Ellen Aaron. I think, I know it's Hildebrand, but I can't. Yeah, it's definitely the academy. Let's look. It's, it's a newer one by her. She also wrote the Five Star Weekend, which I read that one. But Ellen? It's Ellen. Ellen. Okay. So sometimes I'm like, I second guess myself. I know. Same. So we're reading that one in November. So at some point we'll have our book club episode. It'll be like probably second or third week of November.'cause we're meeting the first week. Mm-hmm. When you close on your house. I know. Same day. But I close at four. So I told my husband, I was like, okay, we need to sign really quickly and then I need to go. But yeah, so thank you so much for coming on. Of course. I appreciate a ton. If you guys like this episode, please leave us a comment. Let us know if you read this book, what you thought of it. We would love to see a comment if you're watching on YouTube. And then if you are listening on Spotify or Apple Podcast, please subscribe. Give us a rating and a review. And thanks again, Hailey, for joining. Of course. Thanks for having me cheer. Yay. Always like to cheers at the end. Makes it more fun. Yeah, it's funny with like the plastic