75: [Interview] A Candid Conversation About Grief - Culture, Support, and Going Through It

Tune into this candid conversation about grief with our close friend and substack author, Shelby. In this episode, we open up a little about our own experiences with grief but also chat about cultural differences when it comes to grief, how to support someone who’s grieving, and (hopefully) helpful advice for when you’re going through grief.

As always, please let us know if this episode resonated with you and share it with a friend you think would benefit from it.

CHEERS!

Notes from our convo:

All There Is Podcast by Anderson Cooper

-Shelby’s favorite episode w/ Stephen Colbert: Listen Here

-Another favorite episode w/ Andrew Garfield: Listen Here

Shelby’s Substack Blog: Grief in Your Twenties

Fill Your Cups Podcast Episode 12: the dos and don’ts of reaching out to grieving loved ones

Fill Your Cups Podcast BONUS Book Club Episode: The Measure

Fill Your Cups Podcast Episode 48: The Power Assuming Positive Intent

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Don't forget to check out Shared Shelves Book Club pod!

Transcript

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music playing. I know, because I always steer it with the music. Okay, 1, 2, 3. Welcome podcast. We're your hosts, Morgan and Shelby. Hello everybody. So we have another guest on this week, our friend Shelby. Hello Bailey and I are really good friends with Shelby Bailey, grew up with her and you're in book club with us. Yes, we're friends. We all ask you questions about our dogs and about all sorts of random things, but Shelby is here today because I've been wanting to talk a little bit about this subject for a while, so I'm really excited about it. It's a little bit of a deeper subject, talking about grief. So we'll get that into that in a minute. If you've been listening to last few episodes, you know Bailey's on pod podcast, maternity leave. So that's why Shelby's here with, with me today and Bailey's not. But before we get into the episode, I always ask what's still in your cup? But you might need me to say, no, my nephew was born on Tuesday. That's, oh, I guess, well, literally filling my cup is the mold wine I you died. I love that. I love that. Hype, not hypothetically, it would be metaphorically filling my cup. Guess so. Yeah. Metaphorically fulfilling my cup is now my nephew. I'm used to your Instagram stories. No, I love that so much. Yeah. Shelby's really good about, so if you guys follow us on Instagram, it's at Fill Your Cups podcast and Shelby's really good about, on Fridays we do a Fill Your cups Friday post on our stories and Shelby's really good about being like, my nephew was born or whatever. I'm actually really bad at it'cause I couldn't figure out how to, like I, I was tapping it yesterday and it kept going to the next post and I had to be like, Morgan, how do I fill it out? How do I do this? I felt 85 years old. It was very embarrassing. Social media is hard. Yeah. But, but yeah. So, but what is filling our actual literal cups mm-hmm. Is I made a like mocktail mold wine. It's really just mold grape juice with all the fixings that mold wine has. Like orange slices, lemon slices, cinnamon cloves. Cranberries, all that stuff. So that's what filling, that's what's filling our cups. And then for our shout out today, Shelby has a shout out. Yes. On the way here, I was re-listening to my favorite episode of All There is, which is a podcast by Anderson Cooper and it's all, he started it, I think it was in 2019 when he was cleaning out his mom's apartment after she passed. And every episode is just like one of his friends or like a celebrity talking about grief. And I was, listen, re-listening to the episode with Stephen Colbert. Oh, interesting. Which I, yes, I re, I listened to it for the first time when I was in like very, very early grief and it like. Fully changed my life, like, and my outlook on life. Like my Instagram bio is trying to be the most human I can be. That's a Stephen Colbert quote from that episode. Oh, I love that. I didn't know that. Yeah. And there's, um, the episode with and or Andrew Garfield is also Okay. Fantastic. Oh, cool. They're so, so good. Alright. Like, fantastic podcast. That's so cool. I had never heard of this until Shelby was just telling me about it, but shout out Anderson Cooper. Yeah. And if this is a topic that is really interesting to you, then maybe that's something that you can go follow up after this episode on, is if you're, if you're interested in listening to more about Grief Yes. At the end of this episode, by the end of this episode, then maybe that's an option. I can, I'll link him in the, or I'll link his podcast in the show notes too. Yeah. So that anybody can find it pretty easily if they want to. You said it's called All, all There Is. All There is. Okay, cool. Well, usually before we dive in, we talk a little bit about how we thought of this episode and why we came to it. And if you've listened to the podcast before, you may have heard us talk very briefly. We kind of skated over it sometimes, but Bailey and I both lost our oldest, our, well, our only brother, but he was the oldest child in the family, several, a few years back. And obviously it's like shaped our lives a lot too since then. Just kind of shaped our mindsets and perspectives and all that. And it's a very, I feel like the first person that you lose like that in your life is very almost foundational, I guess, like we were adults at the time. Yes. But it's, it's a very kind of groundbreaking moment in your life. Yeah. So we, so. It's top of mind all the time. Yeah. Even, even years later. And if you've lost someone really close to you, then you probably know what I'm talking about. But it's top of mind even when it's not top of mind for other people, you know? So for me, I'm always like, when Bailey and I pick episodes, we have the, let's get deep how tos and bit of fun. Bailey always picks a bit of funds and I always pick the Let's get deeps.'cause I'm like, let's get into it. Like let's get emotional, you know? And so while Bailey's out, I'm like, let's talk about grief because it's something that's a little bit more uncomfy, but everybody goes through it at some point and everybody has someone else in their life that is going through it, or will go through it, or has gone through it. And I think it was pretty like close after I joined book club when I was like, if you ever wanna do a podcast episode about grief. Yeah. Like, hi, I'm your girl. Like I have a blog about it. Like, yes, I will talk about it forever for hours. Like, that's me. Yeah. Yeah. And that's why Shelby came to mind, because. You have a blog on Substack? Yes just based off like your own experiences. Yes. And what you've learned through it and everything, and so that's why it seemed like a natural option to have you come on. Yeah. So in 2023 I moved back. I was living in Manhattan, Kansas. I went to college at K State and then I stayed in Manhattan for a couple years after I moved back to Kansas City because my grandma was on hospice. And that had been a thing for a while. It was just like kind of time to meet, for me to move back. My nieces were getting older and stuff. Um, I started a new job at KU and then on my fourth day of work I was out. Yeah. It was bad. I was out at like a company lunch and I saw my dad was calling me and it was during lunchtime and my dad's a lunch lady and I was like, oh no. And like we had saw her on Sunday Uhhuh and she was like not aware of anything. So like I kind of knew this was gonna happen. Yeah. Like my first day I had to tell my boss, Hey, I might have to leave. Yeah. Might very soon. We might be on bereavement. So, and of course we were at another site. We were at the site that Lindsay works at actually. Oh, interesting. So I, I had to have one of my brand new coworkers drive me back to where I work. Oh. And then I had to leave, so that was May 18th. And then when I was gone that Friday, it was a Thursday, I was gone. Friday on bereavement and on Monday when I was leaving work, my mom texted me that my uncle, uncle Stinky is what I call him. And like what our whole family calls him was what they thought were having was having, he was having a heart attack. Mm-hmm. And then three months to the date that my grandma died, he died as well. He ended up having a slew of issues. He was kind of a medical mystery for a while, but he had a form of blood cancer in the end. Oh, I didn't know that. Yes. Um, I just, this is so not related, but I read a book about someone with blood cancer. It was really tragic and upsetting. Yeah. It like destroys your body with like no signs. Yeah. Until it's back. It's very, it it can go symptom free for so long. Yes. The only reason or the only way that you can discover, like get lucky enough to discover that you have it before the symptoms show is like by someone else in your family having it. Yes. Right. And then getting tested. Yeah. He is not related to me by. Blood. So Uhhuh, it was not a concern for us. Mm-hmm. But it was a concern for like his sister and stuff. Mm. Um, depe when they were still trying to like, figure out what was wrong. They were like this, okay, we might have to like bring you into this and stuff, but Oh yeah. Like the weekend before, um, he went into the hospital, he was building a fence and like putting in concrete on the posts and stuff, fully, fully healthy. Like he was the healthiest person in our family. And then that next week he was in the ICU and I think it was like the week later he was on a ventilator and I never heard him speak again. And in between, so it was like three months to the day it was May 18th, grandma died. August 18th, uncle Stinky died. And in between those in July, I think I had another aunt pass away too. Okay. We hadn't heard from her. Went to her house and she had passed away. Geez. Um, and that was like very unexpected too. So. It was a rough summer. Yeah. And then most recently my grandpa passed. Mm-hmm. This past summer. At the end of the summer. Mm-hmm. So, lots of grief. Yes. I have no experiences with it. Prior to the 2023, this all happening. Mm-hmm. But now I feel like an expert. I'm obviously not, but I feel like one now. Yeah. Well also, I mean, you, you have reflected on it enough sometimes I feel like, I think on one of the episodes I was talking about, one of my favorite podcasters always says that. We learn. We learn from reflecting on our past. Mm-hmm. We don't learn from our past. Yes. We learn from reflecting on it. So it's like you don't just learn about, like, you don't just learn how to deal with grief or anything like that by just like having an experience that made you grieve and then moving, like moving right past it, you know, like you've spent a lot of time reflecting on it and figuring out like, and listening to podcasts on it and writing about it and expressing your feelings about it, you know? Yeah. So I feel like, I feel like that's a form of an expert. You know? I think, and you kind of said it's top of mind even when it's not recent anymore. I think my substack is called grief in your Twenties.'cause I found, so what was so like interesting is when your first close experience with profound grief, it's in your twenties, it's such a weird experience because that's when you're first really learning that like. You're having life experiences that prove that like you're not invincible and you're like facing mor like mortality for the first time. Yeah. And you're also like learn, like going through these big life changes of postgrad and figuring out like mm-hmm. Oh, I am now having to be like an adult and having that big life change at the same time of like losing foundational members of your life. Mm-hmm. Is such a confusing time for not only the person grieving, but like the people around you. Yeah. Like, especially if they haven't experienced something like that. Yes. It's like so impossible to know how to be there for somebody if mm-hmm. Like I still panic when somebody around me loses someone because It still feels like I don't know how to help someone. Yeah. Because it's not spoken about like you experience a loss, you go on bereavement and for most people that's like three days. Mm-hmm. Like you're gone for work. If you're lucky, you can take like a longer leave with FMLA, but you're back and then you're expected to be completely normal. Yeah. In most cultures and religions in America, it's, you're back and you're like, yeah, totally. Back to normal and you're supposed to move on and, and I think it's so interesting in other practices and in different countries like. People will be in public mourning for a year, right? Yeah. Or like, you'll have a full seven day mourning period. Mm-hmm. Jewish people have like, um mm-hmm. Shiba, or no, what is it? Is that right? There's a movie about it. Yeah. I know Jared and I watched it. Yeah. Shiva or Shiva, yes. That sounds right. Yeah. Yeah. And it's like a, like a seven day morning period. Mm-hmm. Like I can, but they're like with their family that whole time. Yes. Like, yeah, it's, and like, I can't imagine how different my grieving process would've been if I even just had that. Mm-hmm. Like, because I was back to work, uh, less than a week after he passed. Like, there's not a lot of, there's not a lot of, I won't say respect necessarily, but that ultimately is kind of what I think, like when I think about America's view on grief, there's not a lot of respect or appreciation around it. It's very, it, it feels very taboo, so we don't talk about it kind of thing. And that when you're saying like, oh, when someone loses someone, I still panic and don't know what to do. Bailey, and I did do an episode way early on in the podcast, just specifically it, for us, it was like the do's and don's of reaching out to grieving loved ones. And for us it was specifically from our point of view of like, these were the things that helped and these were the things that. Didn't help or probably wouldn't have helped if people did them. Like classic things that people do, like bringing over massive amounts of food. Mm-hmm. Or something. And then it's like, oh, we're actually picky eaters and we don't do that. Yeah. You know, so, and now I feel guilty because I'm throwing out your food. But on top of that, I'm also grieving. So now I feel, now I feel grief and guilt. Yeah. And so just like a, you, we kind of talked about that in that episode, but then also we talked a little bit about this kind of culture difference when we were reading the measure. I don't know if you remember that. Yes. In book club and,'cause that book was all about, the whole plot of the book was all about like kind of the considerations you make when you think of when you're faced with your own mortality. Mm-hmm. That was really it. And so we talked a lot. I feel like we got really into it about different cultures and how America is just, we kind of. Do our citizens dirty a little bit with like not really offering that time or that, or even that recog like acknowledgement. Like it's very little like it's very, it's not acknowledged very much either. Yeah. And that's something that I find whenever I like, I was at a coworker happy hour a couple weeks ago and I was talking about, and I was like. Oh, yeah, we have some new people on our team, and I was like, oh yeah, I have five siblings, four sisters, one brother, but he died. Mm-hmm. And my, and, and I'm pretty, I don't know, like one of my coworkers said, Morgan, I just, I, it's terrible, but it like cracks me up every time that you just are like, yeah, my dead brother. And I'm like, I don't know. What else do I say? Like, it's weird to say, especially because in this context I was talking about him being gay. Mm-hmm. And I was like, yeah, my brother was gay. And then I feel like I need to say he's dead because Yeah. I'm not saying he was gay and now he's straight. Yeah. Like, so it's a, it's a particular instance, but, but anyway, it's just like, it just shows me the uncomfortability that people have with even speaking about it, because I can say it. Yes, there's a lot of hurt and emotion that goes behind ha having a dead brother. Mm-hmm. But at the same time, like I feel like we should be able to say that in conversation without it being really like everybody's looking at each other and like, oh my God, should we acknowledge this? Should I say, sorry, should I like, what should I do? Yes. And so, I don't know, it's just really interesting, especially when talking with you or like other people that have faced a very close loved one passing, it's, it's something that is kind of refreshing that we can just like say that, you know? Yeah. It's. It's like Julia at Shaylin's Baby shower. Oh God. A couple months ago she came up to me and she's like, how's your grandpa doing? I'm like, oh, dead. Like, oh my God. Very dead. Gosh. She's like, I don't even know why I asked that. I knew he was on hospice. Like, oh God, she, and she was like, I'm so grateful that you were the one I asked that to, and it was no,'cause I immediately was like nearly in tears laughing. I was like, I love when I get to do that to people. Oh my gosh. Because it's just like, like it doesn't bother me at all, but I know the per the person I'm saying it to is gonna like die inside. Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. Yeah. You kind of have a sixth sense of humor though. Yeah. So that's why this episode suits you well. Yeah. I think when it was kind of interesting going through. Like I didn't, when I started a new job and was like immediately in a grieving mm-hmm. Process, and they immediately were seeing me in like, the worst time of my life. Like, yeah. I was, I came to work, or I was so grateful and so lucky that I worked at the hospital, uncle Ske was in. Mm. And so I would come to work early and go up to his icu Oh wow. ICU room and then go to work that is special. And I could, like, if something was happening, I could literally just run up there. Mm-hmm. And like, or I would go eat lunch up there every day and I would go up there at the end of my shift, that is kind of nice that you had that ability to, while Uncle Stinky was in the hospital. Yes. To go because there was like several times where he coded and I just like didn't go back to work that day. Yeah. Like it. Or if my family was visiting, like I could go see my nieces mm-hmm. At my lunch break. Like it. I don't know if I would've kept that job during this time. Yeah. If that was not the circumstances. Yeah. Which is really lucky. but I also, started a new job, like in the middle of my, the worst time my entire life. And I have a lot of grief for just the fact that my coworkers don't know me mm-hmm. Prior to this. Oh yeah. Time. Mm-hmm. And I'm very lucky, like I have a really great relationship with all of my lab mates and my coworkers. Were very close friends, and I'm really, I'm so lucky that I had them during this. Mm-hmm. They. Let me talk about my grief all the time. And they still do. Like they know my grandma by name. We always make jokes about like Linda and like Uncle Stinky. And that's such a strong piece of my support system I have. Yeah, that's awesome. And I don't think I would be as close to all of them if I wasn't going through that horrific time. Yeah. When I started like, and that was a big reason why I started Grief In your twenties. Mm-hmm. Right after. It might've been like a year after Uncle Cki died. I honestly don't remember when I started it, but, um, a big reason why I wanted to start it is because the biggest lesson I learned during grief is that I got so much closer with everybody around me. Mm-hmm. During a time that I was. Scared I was gonna feel so lonely. Yeah. And instead all the people that like will just like my Instagram stories. Mm-hmm. And or people that like I see at work every day, but maybe don't talk to about deep things. Mm-hmm. All of a sudden we were talking about our greatest traumas. Yeah. And like having this really intense connection. Mm-hmm. Just because they knew that's what I was going through. And it would be like, oh, how are you doing? And I don't ever stop talking so I overshare everything. And because I was talking about it, they would talk about it. Yeah. And even if it was something that happened to them 10 years ago Yeah. All of a sudden like now I feel, and they would feel like we had this very strong bond. Mm-hmm. Or. People that I went to high school with that I haven't talked to since I was in high school would be like messaging me and talking about their loved one that passed. Still. When I post about Uncle Stinky, like if I'm having a really bad day, sometimes I'll post I'll like tag him so that his friends can see it too. Mm-hmm. Be like, can somebody tell me, can everybody like share a favorite memory you have of him, Uhhuh or just like a random memory and I'll get things that I would've never heard otherwise. Course, yeah. Even like if he had ne if he hadn't passed, I maybe had never, I would've never heard that story. Mm-hmm. And I get to see like so many different sides to the people you lo you lose mm-hmm. And so many different sides to the people around you that you would've never formed that relationship without grief. Mm-hmm. In the Anderson Cooper podcast with Stephen Colbert. There's a it and it's a very popular Stephen Colbert quote. He says that you have to learn to be grateful for the thing that you most wish never happened to you. Mm. And that is something that I think I truly think about every single day. Like when I think about Uncle Stinky and I think about Grandma and I think about Grandpa and Aunt Tammy like every single day. Mm-hmm. That is what I'm thinking about is like learning to have this relationship where I'm grateful that these, like that summer happened to me. Mm-hmm. And I'm, no, I'll be so honest. I'm nowhere near that. Yeah. Like nowhere near to the point where I'm grateful it happened. Yeah. But like, I'm grateful that I have this close relationship with my coworkers. Yeah. And that some of them are like my best friends. And I don't think they would, we would be as close without them. Yeah. Like, I think. I am grateful for things that have come as a result of my grief. Mm-hmm. But I don't think I'm all the way there yet. Yeah. But I think it's an important, goal for me to have. Yeah. Instead of like resentment, which is something I really struggled with in early grief. Yeah. Yeah. Do you think that that's part of why, so you started the blog mm-hmm. Grief in your twenties obviously'cause you were going through grief in your twenties. Yes. But like, do you think that you were, like, that was part of your goal was okay, processing and then figuring out how to like become, like, get to a better place with it or like a more grateful place with it or? I, I wanna say I actually started it because my, I was in therapy and my therapist, Adam was like, you should write a book. Like, he was like, I was just talking about it. And he was like. Um, I think I have a blog post where I was like, Nick's, it's titled something like, um, Nick Saban retired and it ruined my Life or something, because that was a trigger that you wouldn't think would be a trigger. Mm-hmm. But my Uncle Hinky was a giant Alabama fan. Okay. So I'm a giant Alabama fan. Like otherwise I would have no emotional tie to that team. Yeah. Yeah. And Nick Saban retired like a couple months after he passed. I think it might've been the next year. Again, my memory is trash after. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Like grief also ruins your memory. Like that's a real thing. Um, and I was talking about it in therapy and Adam was like, oh my gosh, you should write a book. And I was like, I'm not gonna do that, but maybe I should write a blog because. When Uncle Cindy was sick, I was writing his Caring Bridge page. Mm-hmm. And I was writing for a long time. It was like daily updates and then it changed to weekly when he was kind of like not, he wasn't like declining or improving. And it was before we had done hospice. Just not a lot to report. Yeah. There was just not a lot to report on. And it was really like the caring bridge was really, really therapeutic for me. Okay. Like writing and, which is interesting'cause I've never felt like writing was therapeutic for me prior to this Uhhuh. Um, but I just, I had, I felt like I missed it. Mm-hmm. I had been talking about that in therapy and so I kind of started that. Like I also missed the interaction of people. Yeah. Of like people sharing like their. Own feelings and their own experiences and grief through in, just in the comments of like hearing other people talk. Mm-hmm. About like, oh yes, I also feel all these same things. Mm-hmm. Um, I remember when, like literally the day he passed, we had spent like all day at the hospital and then they were, they were like, we can't tell you how long it's gonna be. Like, they had turned on his vent all the way and he was on morphine. And we had been there all day and they, my aunt had sent us home and then she was gonna call us and she called me back and like, I heard the machines go off when she was on the phone with me. Mm-hmm. And he like passed while she was on the phone with me. Mm. And we went back up and like, said our goodbyes and stuff. And then when I went back home, I wrote like in bed that night. But like post I put on Caring Bridge where he, when I like wrote that he passed, it was like my, kind of my own eulogy to him. Mm-hmm. And I remember feeling like that night that like, if I wasn't doing that, I don't know what I would've been doing. Mm-hmm. Like I remember just being so numb and angry and I just felt like I had to do something and that was the only thing I could do. Mm-hmm. And I, I think I needed another outlet like that. Mm-hmm. And I apparently thought it was still the early two thousands, so I was like, I'm gonna do a blog. No. Yeah. I love that. I feel like for people that are listening who are going through grief could take away that it would be good to find a different outlet, like whether that's writing or even. This is only top of mind'cause the end of October and I make our fill your cups reels every month. Mm-hmm. And I seriously like sob over them. It's so silly. But like, I watch them in their 32nd clips or sometimes even as quick as 20 seconds. And I just, and, and I love making them. Yeah.'cause I love to like review what we did this month and look at these special moments and whatnot. Mm-hmm. But if it's an outlet like that, like so some kind of, you know, creating. A video or writing or even, I mean, there's probably reading, uh, certain reading that you can do or like diving into podcasts, something like that. Like finding an outlet like that. And then also it sounds like just being honest with your support.'cause the support that you had at the time was your, like your coworkers who may not have been the support if it was like a year earlier, you know, or even a year later, like you might not have gone into that job and been like. Talking about your grief and all that. Yeah. But, but it sounds like just being kind of open with your support system, I am curious what made their support so positive for you? Do you think it was genuinely just'cause they were open to listening and sharing themselves too? Or like, I guess what was the best for you whenever you were going through it? Kind of more so for someone listening to this podcast who's not going through grief, but they have someone who is the best way to be with someone that's grieving. I think, well, for me, specifically for my coworkers, during that time, they were truly strangers when I met them. One of them I happened to, like, we had mutual friends, which was just a coincidence. But otherwise in truly like two months we went from strangers to best friends. Mm-hmm. It to me, and I'm sure this is because at the time it was my whole life. Yeah. But I contribute that to the fact that they were so supportive of me during this time, Uhhuh and that, but okay. Sorry. I'm gonna challenge you. No, go ahead. What does that mean though? Like when you say they were so supportive, what specifically made you feel supported by them? I think it's their vulnerability. Okay. Like the fact that you, it could have been easy to just been like, oh, I'm so sorry you're going through that. And not also open up and share their own experiences and be so vulnerable themselves is so I was so shocked by that and The fact that like, I felt like I knew them. Mm-hmm. So intimately. Mm-hmm. So quickly. Okay. Was such a, and that happened with all of my uncle's friends, like people that I only knew because they knew my uncle. Mm-hmm. I then felt like when they were reaching out to me, they were being so vulnerable with their emotions. And to me it was kind of like an honor because I was like, oh, you just know me as the kid that was around mm-hmm. On poker nights and stuff. Yeah. Like, to me it felt like a really big sign of respect kind of. Mm-hmm. And even now, This past August, I try to do every, uh, something for Uncle Slinky's birthday every year. Yeah. We do the same for, yeah. Last year I did gift baskets for the ICU nurses. Oh, cool. And then this year I bought my whole department coffee and stuff. Nice. And okay. So you do something nice for other people. Do something for ourselves. Um, uh, we, I also go to the zoo. I don't know why I end up going to the zoo every year, but the zoo is the place I go. Okay. Okay. I had, before he died, I hadn't gone to the zoo in like 10 years. I don't Wow. It just happened. You can't be sad around animals. That's such a good point. Yes. But my coworker, I think, I assume someone told her, but she might have just connected the dots from the time of year, but she texted me and she's like, Hey, I know today's gonna be really hard for you. Do you have plans tonight? I'm sure you do, but if you don't, like, let's go get dinner. Something. Yeah. And I just saw a TikTok about this the other day. Grief TikTok Okay. Can destroy you some days. Oh, okay. I can't tell you how many times I've sobbed on my lunch break because I've seen something so sad on TikTok, but also is so it's such a community. Yeah. And really is so helpful. It, she was saying like, if you know somebody that has lost somebody recently, put that date in your calendar and when it comes up again, just text them on that day. I love, love that to acknowledge that it. Is hard. When you were saying that, that person texting you on the anniversary, I was thinking to myself, wow, that would be actually so meaningful if I got a random text from someone. Yeah. On John's birthday or on the anniversary of his death or something like that. And they were saying just thinking of you or whatever. Like, I, that's really, really sweet. And I would be like, oh my God. They, because it is because'cause when you're going through it, you go through the thick of it and then afterward it's not the thick of it, but the thin of it is forever. Yes. But for everybody else, they see you going through the thick of it and then it goes away. Mm-hmm. And so when someone acknowledges that it still is happening, it almost validates that you may be feeling some sort of way about it. Whether that's hurt or anger or upset or even just nostalgia. Yes. You know, like just whatever you're feeling about it.'cause sometimes. Like we were talking about in our culture, it's like they die. You get three days to mourn and then you move on. Yeah. But realistically we think about it for so long after that. And so whenever, I feel like it's just really nice when other people acknowledge it and acknowledge that it's, you don't necessarily need to be done with this just because everybody says three days I'm done. You know? Like, you, it, I, it's like I'm acknowledging that you're never gonna be done with this. It's really special. Yeah. Yeah. And I think I am, I hear stories a lot about how grief, like can divide people. I'm so fortunate that that was not my experience. I have the most amusing support group of my friends and my family. Like the most meaningful thing ever in my whole life I think that's ever happened is when, uncle Stinky. Was when we knew we were doing hospice and stuff. I texted one of my best friends in the whole world, Marie, and I just texted her. I was like, I need you to be here. I need you to come. She lives in Manhattan still. And I was like, I really need you to be here. And she's the teacher. So it's like, and this was like start of the school year. Don't remember, remember if her school year had officially started or not yet. Or if it was in planning time. Mm-hmm. But homegirl was there. Aw. She was with me the day that he died. Mm-hmm. Like, I was not alone. And it made the world of a difference. Yeah. And she got to like, she's very close with my family, so she got to come and say her her goodbyes too, which I know is very important for her. Yeah. But I constantly, like, I don't think I go more than three days without thinking about What a difference. Just her being there mm-hmm. Made mm-hmm., So that when I got home from the specialty hospital he was at mm-hmm. After he died, that I wasn't by myself. Yeah. That just somebody else was in the apartment at least. Yeah. And that when I woke up the next day, I wasn't by myself still. Yeah. It made such a difference and that I was with somebody who was like one stepped removed Yeah. From the situation made such a difference too, because I'm such like a carer mm-hmm. That I, I need to take care of other people. Mm-hmm. And I had been doing that so much for the three months that this had been happening, that I I needed somebody else to take care of me in that moment. Yeah. And like she was instantly there no questions asked. Yeah. And that was such like. We'll never be able to thank her enough for that. Yeah. I kind of feel like a gist of what you were saying. So for someone listening to the podcast that's like, I don't know how to support my friend or family member or whatever that's going through grief or I. Or someone who is grieving and doesn't really like know what support to ask for. I feel like just in general, it sounds like just having a presence, whether that is the presence of Acknow sending a text to acknowledge like, this might be a hard day for you. Or actually like being present at a specific moment that is really kind of at the climax of the grief or something like that. Just like, I can't tell you how many people, I do think I referenced this in the episode we did before too, but I can't tell you how many people I did not expect to see at John's funeral. Mm-hmm. That came and I'll never forget it. Yes. Like I'll, I'll never forget those people. Not that I would like, I. Hold any resentment or bitterness toward people that didn't go. But it's just like one of those things where I was like, oh my God, you showed up to something I would not have expected you to show up to. Mm-hmm. I will never forget that. Yeah. That's just will mean a lot. And it kind of sounds similar with your Maria Marie. Marie Marie, that she could have not shown up and been like, I'm a teacher. Yeah. I'm sorry. I really couldn't get any days off. You know that America hates education. Yeah. And they hate grief. so she could have, she could have said something and you would've probably, even in the pits of grief, you would've logically been like, yeah, that makes sense. It's crazy that I Yeah. Expected you to just drop everything and come. But she, but the fact that she did. Makes it, it stands out in your brain. Yeah. And that's why you don't go more than three days without thinking about it. Yeah. I think also kind of like we spoke about when you're doing this in your twenties for the first time, and you've never experienced it before, the, your friends have probably never experienced, maybe they've never experienced grief themselves, but they've probably also never experienced having to be the best friend or the friend. Right. Of someone grieving. Like somebody in that TikTok I, I was just talking about. Of like putting the, that date in your phone. There was somebody in the comments that was like, I would love, I don't know how to tell my friends. This is the type of support that I need. And I had commented back and replied to her. I was like, I honestly think you should just send them this TikTok and be like, yeah. Like, hey, like I love this. Yeah, I love this. That's literally all you could say. Like, it doesn't need to be a formal thing. Yeah. The people around you that care about you are also wanting to help you. Mm-hmm. And are also probably feeling very lost. Mm-hmm. And it, not saying it needs to, obviously it doesn't need to be on the person that's grieving, but it's okay for you to also ask for help. Yeah. Like, yeah. And all, a lot of people, I think I have a lot of pressure for me, I wanna do like the big grand gestures. Mm-hmm. And like, be like, oh, what can I do that will, make the biggest difference or whatever? And it just, it doesn't need to be that sometimes. Sometimes it's just simpler than that. Yeah. Sometimes it's just like, Hey, can I bring you food? Or like mm-hmm. You want to like, go get drinks together and like rant or something and do you wanna cry for 30 minutes and then we can move on and pretend that didn't happen. Yeah. Just really small stuff like that. Even further on, like you said, the thick of it is hard, but like for me, the thin of it is harder. Mm-hmm. I have found. Mm-hmm. Because I am not an angry person. I'm a very dramatic hyperbolic person, so I rant and rave and stuff, but I, at my core, I don't experience anger almost ever. Mm-hmm. And grief has made me an angry, angry person. And that is what I struggled with so much in early grief. And what I talked about in therapy so much was I don't want this to change me and be an angry person. Mm-hmm. I like that. I, it's an emotion I feel uncomfortable with. Mm-hmm. The more time that passes from. The loss, I get more angry. Like it's more unfair. Mm-hmm. Because I experience more things without them. Yeah. Like now that my grandpa's passed, our Christmas and our Thanksgiving this year is me and my mom and dad and Aunt Fifi. Mm-hmm. And three years ago there was three other people there. Yeah. It has literally hald in three years. Yeah. And I'm 26. That's not fair. Yeah. That, it's just not fair. Yeah. And it's angry. And my nieces were babies and now I have a nephew and another niece that will never know. Uncle Stinky. Yeah. That's so, so unfair. And it makes me so angry. And that's. What I was talking about earlier with like feeling grateful for the thing you most wish never happened. This is like what I have to work on. Mm-hmm. Is like that feeling of anger and not viewing it as oh these people like, Faye and Geo will never meet him. Mm-hmm., And Ce and Freya won't remember him. Mm-hmm. Like, I can't think of it like that. I need to think of it as look at these relationships you've made. Mm-hmm. Because this happened. Mm-hmm. What do you feel like helps the most whenever you start down that anger spiral, I guess? I think in therapy a lot, and this happened for some reason with my grandpa's loss because he was older and like. Uncle think he was not supposed to die yet. Mm-hmm. Yet like he was 55. Mm-hmm. That's too young. Yeah. My grandpa was in his eighties. That's like more quote unquote fair. Yeah. Like that's more expected. And so it, I think I had therapy like two or three weeks after my grandpa died and I was telling my therapist about these emotions I was having, and he's and I was saying it as like things that needed to be fixed. And he was like, that's not, you're just talking about grief. Like mm-hmm. You're talking about anger you have, or sadness you have. Mm-hmm. That's, you're not angry and you're not sad, you're grieving. Mm-hmm. I think have learning to like recognize when you're experiencing grief. And when those emotions can be tied to that grief event and not when they're like independent to mm-hmm. Another event is really important for me to be like, oh, something triggered this. Yeah. Have you ever heard of the ball in the Box theory? I think so. It's like, yeah. Tell me about it. It changes size, yes. As, as time goes on. So like, the box is always the same and there's a button in the box and the ball is giant. It's the same size as the box. Mm-hmm. When you are first grieving and so the button is constantly being pressed. Yes. You're constantly, your grief is always triggered and as your grief, like as time goes on, as time goes on, the size of the ball changes, but your, the button will get pressed still and the. Reaction to that is always the same. Mm-hmm. And so it took me a long time to realize when you hit that button, Recognizing that button's been hit. Yeah. And because it's unexpected. Yeah. And I think with the box analogy, if you picture, it almost reminds me of like the TV screens. You know, I, yes. There's an office episode where they're trying to get the little, that's what I think of in my head every single time. Yes. Yeah. So it's like. Essentially the floating icon on the TV screen. Mm-hmm. When it hits directly in the corner, that's like the button. And you can't predict when it will because things have to kind of line up perfectly. And when you were talking about the Alabama guy, I don't remember his name. Nick Saban. Nick Saban. When you talk like it's very possible that at a different time of your life that that would not have been a trigger for you. Yes. But kind of it, it's not just the event, but time from the event, timing of where you are at with other things in life. Honestly, probably Hormones, all sorts of, yeah. All sorts of things kind of perfectly aligned to hit that corner, hit that button. And so it's very unpredictable and that's why it's so hard to recognize that, oh, I'm being triggered right now. The button is being hit, the corner's being hit, whatever it is that it's hard to recognize. So you have to like go through it several times. Yes. Before you realize, and even then, we're not perfect at identifying when that's happening. Yeah. I, there's, I mean, there's times where I will. Be going on about something and I'll be having a breakdown and someone has to stop me and be like, I don't think you're having a breakdown about what you think. You're having a breakdown. You have a breakdown about. I'm like, what do you mean? I think you're actually upset that someone's dead. You're the holiday season is always rough for me. Yes. Again,'cause all of a sudden it's half of what it used to be Uhhuh like number wise or the 18th of every month is hard. Like Yeah. I will literally be so stressed in tears at work over something and I look at my phone and it's the 18th and you're like, it's, oh, that makes sense. Like that book, the body keeps the score. I haven't read it. I, yes would love to post all of this happening to me, but it feels like my body and my brain. No, before I do. Yeah. Which is very interesting and that's why everybody needs to go to therapy because Yeah. Yeah. I've been in therapy since 20 17, 20 18 and still I don't, I think I've had one session since Uncle Stinky got sick where I have not talked about grief. Yeah. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Yeah, I like that analogy a lot and I think it's really it. The first time that I saw that or heard that, I was like, oh, that is so accurate for to depict how people feel when they go through grief. And I also think it's helpful for people who are listening or people who know others that are going through grief and they haven't gone through that event, that type of event. Mm-hmm. It's helpful for them to realize too, like, oh, that makes sense. It's very unpredictable,'cause I think sometimes it's very confusing for people that haven't gone through a really significant personal loss. It's really hard for them to. Necessarily have the empathy that's required mm-hmm. To understand the thin of it we keep calling it, or the just kind of the after, you know, years following and not realizing that oh, well, just as much as I couldn't predict that, that person would have a reaction to that, they couldn't predict that either.. Like you couldn't have guessed that. August 18th. I mean, you could have guessed that August 18th was a struggle day or something, but without like really acknowledging it and realizing, oh, it's August 18th. Like you didn't realize your body and your mind and everything was gonna react that way until you put two and two together and you realize, oh, I hit the button. Yes. And so neither could anyone else. So I feel like it's also good both ways because it can give you, it can give that the person on the outside looking in empathy, but it also gives you, you know, when you're going through that or when you've had a trigger, once you're able to identify the trigger, it can give you empathy toward people who maybe weren't supporting you perfectly in that moment. Yes. Because they didn't know what was going on. Because you didn't know what was going on. Yeah, exactly. There's definitely times in early grief or even like, not so much in early grief, but when Uncle Stinky was sick, I remember It was, I would get so frustrated with people that were like so close around me, because I would be like, how do you not understand that? Like every second is the worst thing that's ever happening to me. But obviously you cannot be treated like glass by the people around you all the time. Yeah. And I think I, there was just no convincing me at that time that yeah, like, uh, that is just something I had to learn with hindsight. Yeah. Looking back on it, I'm like, yeah, I was just way too emotional at all times. Mm-hmm. I was just in the height, the most heightened state mm-hmm. Of adrenaline all the time. But I think like looking back on it, I definitely am not angry at those people. Yeah. I don't think I was ever really angry at them. Yeah. But I think it's one of those things where it's the whole, like you have to take it with a grain of salt kind of thing. Yes. Like when someone is going through something really traumatic, you have to, we did an episode on assuming positive intent. Mm-hmm. And obviously that person's not intending something positive, but that person's also not intending to demonize you or like villainize you or anything like that. It's just that that person can't, can't look past what's right in front of them. Yes. And so I think that it's one of those things where it's, it's just a good reminder that, I mean, I don't know, it's just a good reminder that people are going through things that you do know about and things that you don't know about. And. Whenever someone has an intense response to something very little, does it, or very few times, does it actually have anything to do with you? Most of the time it has something more to do with them. I think this is kind of weird saying, but I think one of like the biggest ways you can support someone close to you going through grief is just let them be a little crazy during that time. Yeah. Honestly, like when they're going through something really like horrific, just let them do weird things. Yeah. Like if they say something to you and you're like, that does, that was odd. Out, out of pocket. Yeah, out of pocket, out of character. Just let it slide. Yeah. Like it will, will very likely never come up again. We're just going through it. We're just, and sometimes you it. I probably did some really weird things and that summer that I. Maybe shouldn't apologize for and I just don't remember. Yeah, I do. It makes you do really weird shit and say weird things.'cause your brain chemistry, your literal brain chemistry is off, so off. Yeah. Yeah. It's so interesting you saying this because I could just be like fuzzy out things about myself at that time, which I do think happens when you're grieving, but I, I feel like people just grieve so differently and I know For my mom, for instance. I don't think she mind me sharing this, but I felt like it was a lot more like what you were describing about just anger and intensity and feeling really like, how can everybody else not be so freaking upset about this? Yes. Because obviously having your son pass, like my mom did, I can't even imagine. But for me, I am kind of more of a quiet griever. Mm-hmm. Like, I like to be home alone. Maybe Jared can be next to me and gimme a little snuggle or something, but I don't like to, I, I don't wanna like really dwell on it. I like to be able to just kind of like skate past it. Like, yeah, my brother's dead. It's sad, it really is moving on. Yep. Kind of thing. And then I, and I'm also not like a Waller, like I don't on his. Birthday or his day of passing or something like that. I know people in my family, some of them will take the whole day off and I'm like, I'd rather go to work and be distracted. Yeah. Or some people will watch his favorite movie and I'm like, I don't really wanna sit in my living room and sob. Or if I'm gonna do that, I don't wanna do it with other people, I'm gonna do it by myself. And so, or again, like just with Jared or Edward or something. So it just feels, it's just like people are just so different, I guess, with their grief. So it can be really hard. But I do think that something that is consistent between people is that you can't know. You can't know, you can't really know when it's gonna hit and you have to be able, like as the person grieving, I feel like you have to be comfortable with communicating what you want and need. Because at this stage I can recognize those things about myself. But at when, when you were, you've said the term early grief few times, which I don't. Fully know if that, like, what that qualifies to? I think like technically I've heard it's the first five years Oh, okay. Which is, I mean, I'm only two years in Yeah. I to, in my brain, it's like the first year is what I reference it to, but like in like, like the DSM or whatever? Yeah. In like, like official capacity. I think it's five years. Okay. Well, earlier on I felt like something's wrong with me because I don't wanna like constantly talk about it and dwell on it. Mm-hmm. And dwell. And I don't wanna necessarily, I wasn't trying, I wasn't avoiding it, but I was just like, he's gone and it's really upsetting and I wanna feel really upset when I feel upset. And I also wanna feel. Happy about who he was, when I'm happy about who he was. Yes. And you know, there's a lot of recurring things coming now with having a niece and mm-hmm. Feeling really sad about what kind of uncle he could have been, that sort of thing. There's a lot of that that comes on every major life event or holiday, like you were talking about comes on. But I just know earlier on I felt weird about how I felt compared to other people, I guess. And it was more just that I wanted to grieve privately. Mm-hmm. And other people wanted to grieve, not publicly, I won't say, but just like have more acknowledgement. Yeah. Like a group setting. Yeah. And so I think that even having those people be, or having those differences in grieving, it's just so important, for that person to share what it is that they need. So I feel like communication is so important. Yes. And I think it's really important, if you're someone close. To someone going through that to just be like, Hey, let's have a really frank discussion of what's gonna be helpful for you. I think what you were saying, communication is so helpful. Just sitting down with someone and being like. Do you wanna talk about it? Mm-hmm. Are, do you want distractions or do you want to sit and really sob or Yeah, really talk about like that TikTok, I was watching somebody comment in and was like, yeah, please don't talk. Please don't text me on the day my mom died. I know she's dead. I don't need somebody to remind me. Yeah. Which is totally fair but I feel the complete opposite of that. Me too. Clearly me. Yeah. It's just like, I don't, I think the best way is just to be like, it's almost like a safe word. Mm-hmm. Being like real quick timeout I need to know what you want. Yeah. It's kind of unfortunate because we tiptoe around it and we were saying it's very taboo and whatnot. But I think what is most helpful is when you're just like, what do you need from me? Or I need this from you, or, this is kind of my preference. Yes. Or what is your preference? You know, we should just talk about it makes it so much easier to just act around. Yes. You know? So I don't know. That's just I guess my 2 cents. But is there anything specifically that you want to share about grief or for other people? That are either have someone going through it, we talked a lot about what to do when someone else is going through it or what to do when you're in it and just kind of how you felt in it and everything. Is there anything specific, like any other takeaways or anything that you would want people to have? I think like just resources wise, my therapist had me read it's okay to not Be Okay by Meg Divine when I was in very early grief. I still have not finished that book. I'm very slowly going through it. Her husband died in an accidental drowning. Oh right. And it is a phenomenal resource. I've bought it for so many people. That's one that if I see somebody close to me has gone through mm-hmm. A major loss, I'll buy them that book. I think there's also a workbook for it, but I just like have written, highlighted all through my copy. So that is a really big one. If you're someone who is just interested in kind of the concept of grief mm-hmm. I'm someone who becomes more comfortable with something by learning about it. Yeah. Obviously I've been listing all these podcasts and stuff. There's a really good author, her name's Caitlin Dowdy. She, oh, she's also on YouTube. Ask Mortician. She has wrote, smoke Gets In Your Eyes. It's a memoir. Mm-hmm. From when she worked in the funeral industry. Okay. And then she has a book called, from Here to Eternity, and that's about the different death cultures, all around the world. Oh, very fascinating. Yes. It's so interesting. I read that in college and I hadn't experienced any big grief mm-hmm. Or loss yet. And I think honestly having that. Knowledge beforehand of how other cultures grieve. Mm-hmm. When I was grieving, made a big difference. Mm. Because I think if my only experience with, of grief was with our culture of being very private and hidden about it mm-hmm. I think I would've gotten a little bit more crazy. Yeah. Just because I'm like so open. Mm-hmm. And I need to talk about things and I mean my house, like I have what looks like shrines to my loved ones in my house. I have a memory bear and like mm-hmm. These little ornaments and stuff Yeah. And notes on my walls from them. Mm-hmm. And all that's I'm just a very open person. Mm-hmm. So if you are someone like that, those are very, very good, interesting resources. I love that. Yeah. That's so cool. Well, unless you have anything else I. I'm so glad that you came on. I feel like we talked a lot about how people don't talk about this enough, so ultimately just talking about it on the podcast is really exciting to me and something that I hope that people will click on and not shy away from, you know, so if you made it to the end of this episode, we would love to hear what you thought and if you. Yeah, just share with us what your story is, what you've gone through. If you have that, or if you have more specific questions about Shelby or me or about like a friend that's going through something or something like that. We definitely, obviously would be open books about it. Yes. Yeah. Clearly I have not a single secret my entire life. Well, also this is out for public consumption. Yes. So intentionally, we're talking about this, so hopefully you liked it. If you did, please leave us a rating review. We'd appreciate it. And if you're watching on YouTube, please drop a comment. We love to see what you're commenting. But otherwise, thanks Shelby so much for coming on. Cheers. After you took a drink. Yeah, that was a horrible time. Cheers. Cheers. My bad. That's fun. But yeah. Oh, fun. That was so fun. Yay. Yeah.