The trap of victim consciousness and how it affects your health

Do you ever feel powerless, stuck, or like life is just happening to you?

In this episode of Women of the Well, Dr Thea and Dr Peta explore a topic that might feel a little uncomfortable but has the potential to spark real change.

They’re talking about victim consciousness.

Not as a label or an accusation, but as a nervous system state that many of us (consciously or unconsciously) fall into – especially when we’ve experienced chronic pain, health issues, or any form of trauma or dismissal.

They discuss:

🌿 What victim consciousness really means – and how it’s linked to a dysregulated nervous system

🌿 Why identifying with your diagnosis (endo, PMDD, menopause, etc) can actually keep you stuck

🌿 The Victim Triangle – and how it plays out in chronic health conditions

🌿 Why society benefits from keeping women disempowered (and why reclaiming your power matters)

🌿 How to shift your beliefs, reclaim agency, and access more joy, pleasure, and possibility in your life

If you’ve ever felt stuck in your pain, powerless in your body, or trapped by a diagnosis, this is a must-listen conversation that aims to help you see things differently and move forward with more compassion for yourself.

Quick request: We’re planning future episodes right now, and we’d really love your input. If there’s a topic or question you want us to explore, please email or send us a DM on Instagram — your suggestions truly shape the show.

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DISCLAIMER:

This podcast is for information and educational purposes only and is not intended as a substitute for medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment.

Transcript

[00:00:00] Dr Peta Wright: Hi Thea.

Dr Thea Bowler:  Hi Peta. How are you going? 

Dr Peta Wright: I'm good. welcome everyone to another episode of Women of the Well.

[00:01:07] We do have lots of really exciting and interesting things planned, for the future. There's some incredible guests that we are hoping to have lined up and also maybe a series of. Listener questions. So I would say if there's anything that you are burning to know about or to hear us talk about please send your questions into us.

[00:01:28] Mm-hmm. And maybe things that we're seeing in the clinic. But today we wanted to do a little bit of a different topic and we wanted to talk about a subject that can often feel tricky, but is something that we see in many of our patients and we see that it. Keeps them stuck. And it's a big hindrance to them living a life that is full of joy.

[00:01:52] Joy and feeling and meaning, and curiosity and purpose. so we're gonna talk about victim consciousness today, [00:02:00] which can feel like a very loaded phrase, right? it's got an accusational kind of tone. Tone, like a blaming, accusation. But I guess why we wanna talk about it is because to feel like the victim is to feel helpless and powerless and not in control.

[00:02:18] Yes. And often. Angry and blamey. Yes. And all of those things are also features of being in a nervous system state that's dysregulated often in that sort of freeze state um, or fight or flight with anger. Mm-hmm. And it happens out of nervous system dysregulation of not feeling safe. 

[00:02:43] Dr Thea Bowler: Yes. I think it's that feeling that the answers.

[00:02:47] The solutions are beyond yourself or outside or online yourself. 

[00:02:51] Dr Peta Wright: Yeah. And there's a phrase that we use to talk about that, which is called an external locus of control, which means that you feel like you don't have any of the answers and everything is outside of you. Mm-hmm. And we know that for people who really have that.

[00:03:06] External locus of control. They often do suffer more with things like anxiety and depression, other mental health challenges and pain. Mm-hmm. And chronic illness. Mm-hmm. Because they don't feel like there's anything that they can do to help themselves. so this is why we often see people who I would say are, can be trapped in that way of feeling and relating to the world in our practice.

[00:03:30] Mm-hmm. I would probably say I see it in chronic pain. Absolutely. Endometriosis. Absolutely. Yeah. Menopause. Yep. I 

[00:03:38] Dr Thea Bowler: think anything that gives you a label. Yes. Because. We have to think about what are the good things about being a victim? You know, being a victim gives you perhaps care.

[00:03:48] Mm-hmm. Support, validation, love a community. A community that you may not be able to access elsewhere. so I think a lot of the [00:04:00] times, the labels and the conditions that we see often give that to people. 

[00:04:08] Dr Peta Wright: And so there's a way, it's a way of getting needs met and those are needs that we all have connection and community and support and care.

[00:04:15] But it still keeps us trapped. Yes. And powerless. That's right. And I think this is like, we talk about this all the time. I think this is often why the challenge of helping people Who experience or suffer from, or like identify with chronic health conditions. Mm-hmm. Why it can be very difficult to help them out of it because much of the things that their soul needs they're getting from that attachment to the label.

[00:04:41] That's right. And, and in a way that they've never been shown how to receive or get for themselves in another way. That's right. 

[00:04:49] Dr Thea Bowler: But the problem is that if we remain attached to the label to get those things, sources of comfort, then we will forever be attached to the disease or to the condition.

[00:05:01] And that's where people start to feel stuck. 

[00:05:03] Dr Peta Wright: Yeah. And we'll forever be in a dysregulated nervous system state. Yes. Like we were even talking about this when. We had beautiful Cherie from Luminate leadership who came and did some sort of relational training with our staff. And we were talking about, you know, that sort of external blaming, not taking responsibility.

[00:05:23] Mm-hmm. Those behaviors, which would describe as victim me behaviors, but it's not coming from a person that's horrible person or a person who is weak or any of those things, or is trying to manipulate people to get things out of the situation. It's coming from someone whose nervous system is completely dysregulated.

[00:05:44] And so if we can recognize that we can have compassion number one and then we have to recognize that if we stay there, then we stay in a dysregulated nervous system state, which we believe in the, the evidence and the researchers out there that being [00:06:00] stuck in a persistently dysregulated nervous system state perpetuates things like pain, chronic disease, autoimmune illnesses and all of those things.

[00:06:08] So doesn't allow us. To fully come into our own empowerment in our bodies and in our lives, but it also keeps us physically sick and stuck in a stress response, which is really what it is. And that's the thing that's driving all of it. Yeah, exactly. 

[00:06:26] Dr Thea Bowler: And it doesn't only apply, I think to you know, medical conditions or physical symptoms, but like we can see that we can.

[00:06:34] Be the victim in life as well. You know, like if it's in a job that we hate and we stay in a job that we hate because I can't, you know, I can't change jobs. I can't make a different decision. Mm-hmm. And again, I think it's always a double-edged sword. There's always some benefit that we're getting from staying in the victim road.

[00:06:55] And. It is that that prevents us from taking the steps we need to take to get 

[00:07:00] Dr Peta Wright: out of it. 

[00:07:00] Dr Thea Bowler: Mm. 

[00:07:01] Dr Peta Wright: And I think this is why we're so passionate about understanding the nervous system, because it then takes a lot of layers of, blaming the victim or saying to the victim, well, or the person who's in victim consciousness that It's their fault. It's their, it's, it's because they can then identify that they're in a free state or like feeling helpless and having no resources or no window to be able to take action. Is a nervous system state. Yeah. It's a survival state that's there to protect you. And being really angry about something and blaming outside of you again is a, uh, a survival response, right?

[00:07:39] Mm-hmm. So we can then help people to understand or help you to have an awareness of where behaves are coming from, but through a nervous system lens, which is then you're able to say. Oh, I see what's happening here. My body is trying to protect me. Mm-hmm. Because I've never learned another way of getting my needs met.

[00:07:58] Yeah. Or I feel [00:08:00] so helpless I can't actually take action. Mm-hmm. Because I'm so stuck in this nervous system state. And then you can have self-compassion and being able to leave that victim consciousness behind. Absolutely. Without feeling shame or like you should have been better or, Yeah. Because I think that's very clear that we're not saying, we're saying this is emblematic of a nervous system state that's stuck. Yes. That's in a survival state. It's in a survival state. Exactly. Hmm. And we see it as well in like you know, our society is increasingly.

[00:08:33] I don't know if it's starting to change a little bit. Mm. I don't know. I feel like maybe, but in the past, maybe 10 years at least, I think that there's been so much identification with different groups. Mm-hmm. That, yeah, again, gives community, but it's divisive. Yeah. And it means that if you identify with one group and you don't identify with another group, and then the other groups always have to be wrong, or if you're in that victim consciousness, you are always at the mercy of, or, the injustices and things have being 

[00:09:04] Dr Thea Bowler: done to you. The escape. Well, you that's right. That's that whole thing of life is happening to you. Yes. Rather than you being in control in any way. And like Eckhart Tole talks about it in terms of the pain body. So he talks about the individual pain body or the collective pain body.

[00:09:21] And I think, that's the same sort of thing, which is where. We start to identify with our pain, whether it's emotional, spiritual, physical, but our pain starts to almost serve a purpose for us. And when we start to identify with our pain, it becomes very hard to let go of. 

[00:09:43] Dr Peta Wright: I think about it, like, say, in terms of women as a group, and I've always thought about this, uh, the pain that women carry and does talk about this too, the collective pain body of women. Yes. Who there is no doubt have been oppressed, [00:10:00] abused.

[00:10:00] Suffered over millennia like a long time. Mm. And continue to this day, you know, in many ways that I could point out, like under a patriarchal capitalist society, we were unable to show up as our authentic self. And for a long time I think I was like, so, you know, in identifying with that. Very angry.

[00:10:22] Yeah. And I guess that's the trope of the angry feminist. Right. But angry about the injustice of that. But also there's a certain something about belonging to a group that has been oppressed and then has like righteous anger. 

[00:10:36] Dr Thea Bowler: There's something that feels good about anger, isn't it?

[00:10:38] Yeah. But in remaining angry. Mm-hmm. We never move beyond that. And the 

[00:10:46] Dr Peta Wright: separation continues. That's right. Yeah. And then you never become who you really supposed to be because you're still stuck identifying with past, potentially not even things that happen to you. And I think. In saying this, I think that women feel the, generational trauma of what's happened to them. Like I think about like the witch trials and the killings and stuff, and I always feel I think I can feel that in my bones even though that didn't happen to me. It absolutely all the way women are treated in some Middle Eastern country.

[00:11:15] Yeah. Like you feel that viscerally. Yeah. You do feel that. And, and that has an effect. And that I think there's research that shows that intergenerational. Trauma definitely has an effect on epigenetics and other things. But if we remain attached to that story, when that isn't happening to us, we are perpetuating that trauma and that response at a cellular level going forward and perpetuating that separation.

[00:11:38] And staying again stuck in that powerless, dysregulated nervous system state. And then I wonder, you know, we always talk about how women have, way more autoimmune disease, way more, a lot, lot more chronic health conditions. And the theory is obviously that there's a lot of, adverse childhood events that happen, but that also happens for men.

[00:11:59] But there's that [00:12:00] collective trauma and maybe the identification with the collective female pain body. Is part of that thing. Like if we're, we know like there was a study recently that came out if you were really angry where you were around someone where you had conflict, like that changed your immune system for a time afterwards.

[00:12:17] Yeah. I think an is an important emotion, but it's there to tell us something or to signpost not what we don't want, but what we do want. And to make a change. And to make a change rather than staying stuck in that state. That's right. So you can see like from a health perspective and a, like living the best life perspective, being stuck in past stuff or that identification of the victim is just really like, contributes to a lot of the chronic health stuff we see.

[00:12:45] Absolutely. 

[00:12:45] Dr Thea Bowler: Hmm. there's a triad that goes with being a victim, where if we are the victim, then there has to be a perpetrator and there also has to be a rescuer. And for so many women, let's say endo as an example.

[00:13:00] Mm-hmm. The woman is the victim. Endo is the perpetrator. Perpetrator, and the rescuer is. The doctor or the medical paradigm. But you can see that if we're constantly looking to the rescuer to be saved, then we're always having to look outside of ourselves. And in the case of Endo, we're always having to look for the next surgery, the next drug, the next external source of assistance when, as we've learned, hopefully from this podcast that, you know, when we're struggling with persistent pain states, the answer is within, the answer is in turning towards our pain and to really addressing and looking at the state of our nervous system to bring us back into a state of regulation and to, to help to reduce pain in the long term.

[00:13:52] Dr Peta Wright: And when you're stuck in that triangle, this is where we see really commonly lots and lots of surgeries. The third surgery [00:14:00] didn't work, so we go to another doctor who does another surgery. I try another medication, and then this is where people feel powerless, broken, et cetera. And each doctor becomes the person who's going to rescue this person from this situation.

[00:14:15] And, doctors in the medical industry keep women stuck in this paradigm as well. ' or has been in the past that we, oh my goodness, we have to get endo. It is this nefarious, terrible, progressive debilitating disease and we have to catch it early and do lots of operations.

[00:14:34] That absolutely keeps women stuck in that victim consciousness, which as we've said, keeps people stuck in autonomic nervous system dysfunction, which keeps them stuck in like immune system dysfunction, which keeps them stuck in chronic pain. Okay, so it not only like, doesn't help it very much of the time, especially if all of the, the whole paradigm is that it's just about endo and the surgery and the.

[00:14:59] Operation and whatever it can actively harm you by keeping you stuck in that state and making it worse and worse and worse. 

[00:15:06] Dr Thea Bowler: Mm-hmm. 

[00:15:07] Dr Peta Wright: we have talked about this before and I think again, prefacing this with the work that advocacy groups do mm-hmm.

[00:15:14] For women have done an amazing things and they have done amazing things of late by helping get certain. Medications that may be helpful for some women on the PBS. So more accessible and that sense of community for people to, to know they're not alone in their experience. Yes. Except that then it can be identified with the condition or with the perpetrator.

[00:15:35] And then it's also like this then mass victim consciousness as well. Correct. Where they're stuck in that triangle at a mass level. 

[00:15:43] Dr Thea Bowler: Because I think the thing is it prevents us from. Imagining another identity for ourselves. Mm. You know, like ultimately that's what we want is to be living a life that is fruitful and joyful and full of pleasure and full of meaning.

[00:15:58] But if we're stuck as [00:16:00] the Endo victim or you know, the person who has PMDD, it becomes much more difficult to actually step out of that and to imagine that we might live a life beyond that. It's limiting. 

[00:16:13] Dr Peta Wright: Well, because if that's where you're getting all of those good things from, it basically means you can't actually possibly move on from it because where are you going to get that sense of meaning and curiosity and connection.

[00:16:24] That's right. So that is like the danger of the identification with that state. And that. Victim role. That's a huge one. and this is why often we talk about, it's not just like reframing and educating about endometriosis and all the different treatment options that are available and talking about the nervous system, but part of that work is on like moving our gaze or our attention away from.

[00:16:49] The identification with this illness, but towards how we wanna feel towards getting connection and community and being creative in realms that are outside of this illness. Because if we stay there, we're almost like handcuffed to that forever.

[00:17:08] Absolutely. And then that stops us in our tracks with creativity anywhere else. Yeah. And like we can see it when it comes to, say, I was talking about this with Paula before, with menopause, right? Mm-hmm. Like now, whenever I feel angry, I really have to say, hang on, why is this charge there? Why am I feeling angry?

[00:17:29] And I kind of sometimes feel angry about these things that I see, but like women who feel like they've been so gaslit and, it's almost like they've drawn the short straw in being a woman and how dare biology give them a menopause? Yeah. Like how terrible is that? Yeah. 

[00:17:47] Dr Thea Bowler: How unfair and unjust. 

[00:17:49] Dr Peta Wright: Yeah.

[00:17:49] And so then in the victim consciousness, the menopause is the, and maybe the medical establishment potentially who haven't recognized things earlier are the [00:18:00] perpetrator. And then women are stuck and never empowered to embrace the incredible things that this completely natural, normal. Thing that's built into us for a reason has to offer us, but then we are stuck in anger and we all all know, again, that when we're stuck in the, in those emotions our nervous system isn't gonna be great and the whole rest of our body isn't gonna be great and we're gonna have probably more hot flushes and more issues and symptoms 

[00:18:25] Dr Thea Bowler: relating to menopause.

[00:18:26] Totally. It stops us from embracing like the amazing portal that it is. Mm-hmm. And it's sort of like, who was the guy who did the chart of the, all the vibrational frequencies of emotions. Hawkins somewhere. Anyway, yes. And there's all the different emotions and kind of where they sit in terms of their vibrational energy.

[00:18:45] Yes. And, you know, anger, shame, guilt, being much lower than love and joy. 

[00:18:50] Dr Peta Wright: Yeah. 

[00:18:51] Dr Thea Bowler: And we don't wanna be stuck. Down in the lower vibrational frequencies, we wanna be able to move up to joy and love and all of those things. 

[00:19:01] Dr Peta Wright: It's almost like being stuck there without moving to those other levels and like it keeps us oppressed, but we are doing the oppressing That's right.

[00:19:10] Dr Thea Bowler: Doing it to ourselves. Mm mm And I think it's very hard, like, like for women, it's so hard because. There has been oppression, there has been suffering, there has been. And that all needs to be acknowledged. Absolutely. And there has been gaslighting and dismissal of, you know, of our pay experiences.

[00:19:29] Mm-hmm. But I feel like it's almost swung to the other end that everything has to be pathologized. Yeah. That everything that our bodies do is wrong. Mm-hmm. And need intervention to Correct? Yes. And that there's almost a clinging, like we wanna clinging to those.

[00:19:47] Diagnoses because it gives us the validation that we historically 

[00:19:50] Dr Peta Wright: haven't gotten well. And also because in the current medical paradigm that we live, live in, that's the only way in which we are given help and [00:20:00] support. Yes. Whereas you know, if we were able to acknowledge that many women experience pain bad menopause symptoms, things like PMDD and men premenstrual stuff, not because our bodies are inherently.

[00:20:13] the shittier model to the man. But because we're living unbelievably out of alignment in a society that's expecting us to pretend that none of our biology is happening. Yeah. And so that when it talks to us, we are like, oh, the only way we can continue to cope within the system is to have a disorder.

[00:20:32] Dr Thea Bowler: Yes. 

[00:20:33] Dr Peta Wright: Or an operation or a label that then gives us support, empathy. Yeah. A community. 

[00:20:40] Dr Thea Bowler: Yeah. So why are people not finding that elsewhere? 

[00:20:45] Dr Peta Wright: I think online it has a, makes a difference. Mm-hmm. That when you go online and there's so much fear and then there's connection that's relating to a problem or diagnosis and then everyone like is thinking about, well I think I have those things.

[00:20:59] Mm. And then you then find the community that way. And I think there's less in person connection. Yeah. And I think that because I think over the last 10 years, I think having those diagnoses gives you all that stuff. It almost has cachet, like it almost like 

[00:21:15] Dr Thea Bowler: that's how you are special or unique.

[00:21:16] Yeah. And I also think that because we're living such stressful lives and we. Get symptoms from our body talking to us than telling us something is too much here. But it's almost easier to get a diagnosis than it is to evaluate what might be Oh, it 

[00:21:36] Dr Peta Wright: is underlying that. It is. And I think society is very happy to keep people, victims because if they're helpless, powerless, hopeless, angry at each other they're never going to.

[00:21:50] Come into the remembering of the full power, of the incredible nature of their bodies and realize they don't actually need these systems like [00:22:00] without a perpetrator or a rescuer, which a lot of these industries need to continue to be in order to survive. If you were not the victims who didn't have those, then those industries would crumble.

[00:22:13] Mm. Right. So it, it keeps us very compliant and it keeps us. It keeps us from examining more deeply. Exactly. And also like, it feels like societal change is too hard. And of course it is on a, like, we can't go, oh, this is ridiculous. We can't as I keep saying, modern life is no more suited to humans than it is D Bees.

[00:22:34] But we can't change all of that, but we can change our perception of it and say, well, this isn't a me problem. It is a way I, it's my ecosystem or my environment and I can change my individual environment. Yeah. And that does also seem difficult, but the more we start to look at it, actually that is so supportive because it actually starts to put our nervous system into that ventral vagal safe place where we can access then.

[00:23:02] Connection, creativity from a place that is like more authentic and safe and not out of trauma bonding. Yes. And then our nervous system continues, like our wind regulation continues to be increased and increased and increased because we're we're out of anger, we're out of those base emotions, and we are following curiosity and joy and being nurse and presence and connection.

[00:23:25] Mm-hmm. this is why we think that this is like a really big conversation and like we finished our last healing Heal Your Pelvic Pain course session today. And it was our q and a. It was so wonderful. It was really wonderful. And for those of you who don't know, we did a nine week or 10 week course and it was for women who are suffering with persistent pain and but I think it's very different to anything that you would've.

[00:23:48] experienced or thought of because we're not trying to get rid of pain. We are trying to understand, it's very nervous system based. Mm-hmm. And like, what is your soul pain? What the pain showing up for? Yes. 

[00:23:58] Dr Thea Bowler: What is your body telling you? [00:24:00] Your body is talking to you, and how can we start to listen?

[00:24:03] Dr Peta Wright: And one of our participants asked a question. Yeah. 

[00:24:06] 

[00:24:06] Dr Peta Wright: She said, all of this really resonates and it's really changed. It's been paradigm shifting for me. She said, but I work in corporate job and how do I take this knowledge into my corporate job?

[00:24:20] Dr Thea Bowler: Hmm. And then we were talking to her about whether or not she actually likes her job. Mm. And she said 

[00:24:25] Dr Peta Wright: no. She said, I've given 15 years of my life to something. That I find completely meaningless. Yeah. And we were like, well, bingo. That's the crux. That's the, there it is. Why your nervous system is dysfunctional.

[00:24:40] This is why you have pain. And the pain is just, that's not actually the problem. The pain is the tap, tap, tap on the shoulder as a signal or a symptom of the nervous system overwhelm that you're experiencing. That's right. You know, we've taught her and all of our participants, all these incredible nervous system tools and helping them to understand where they are.

[00:24:58] Are they in a dysregulated state? What are the tools that they can use to help get them out of that? Using things like joy, pleasure, other practices to help train our nervous system into that connected ventral vagal state. But then we were like, you know what did you say about. Tools only get you so far.

[00:25:16] It's about recognizing the environment that we're the soup that was medium. Absolutely. 

[00:25:20] Dr Thea Bowler: Well I said tongue in cheek 'cause it sounds really harsh, but I was like, no nervous system practices are going to help if you are, living in a home where there's violence or no nervous system.

[00:25:32] Practices are gonna work if you are in a wall. Exactly. And because work is another really big one, when you are showing up every day to something that. Your soul is telling you is not for you. That's putting you into a dysregulated state of your nervous system that is inherently going to be a survival state.

[00:25:49] And if you've been doing that for 15 years, well that's heavily ingrained into the nervous system. And so it's no wonder that that particular person's body was talking to her through pain. [00:26:00] 

[00:26:00] Dr Peta Wright: And it's like then the body, the symptom of the pain or whatever the symptom is, isn't a mistake. It's a sign that the nervous system is doing exactly what it should be doing as it interacts with an environment or an ecosystem that it feels is unsafe. That's right. so, you know, nervous system tools are not gonna be helpful because it's like, all you need to know is the awareness of, hang on, it's not my body.

[00:26:20] It's responding appropriately to the environment that I'm in. When you are aware of that, then you may be able to use your nervous system tools to bring you into safety, but then you need to use that space to change your 

[00:26:34] Dr Thea Bowler: ecosystem. Yes. But this is all turning what everybody knows on its head. Yes, exactly.

[00:26:39] Which is, rather than, I have pain, go to a doctor to seek help, to seek surgery, whatever the symptom is. Mm-hmm. It's. Turning towards ourselves, turning towards our bodies and saying, what is here? What does all of this mean? And that, I think is the thing because that is so much more empowering and sometimes it, you know, needs to be done with the help of someone you can talk it through with.

[00:27:07] Mm. But. That is far more empowering and takes you so much further out of victim consciousness because if you are turning towards your body, seeing your body as your friend listening to the messages your body is giving you, then that's a coherent kind of whole, rather than the disempowerment and the brokenness that people feel.

[00:27:30] one of the things we did in the course is actually at the very, very beginning looking at beliefs, like looking at our core beliefs. Mm-hmm. And actually writing them down. And, you know, people had beliefs like, my body is broken. I'll always feel this way which are beliefs that do keep us in that victim consciousness.

[00:27:49] And so I think that's a really powerful way to start is just looking at what are my beliefs? And often they're subconscious, so it almost takes a little bit of sitting with yourself to kind of come to them. Yeah, [00:28:00] because it's only once we have awareness of that, that we can start to build. New beliefs that 

[00:28:05] Dr Peta Wright: anything can change.

[00:28:06] And when we're used to being in a thought pattern loop, like, we're used to feeling anger or feeling like all our power is outside of us or oppressed or any of those things, it becomes a ha a habit That's right. And the brain learns how to think in that way. So it can be really challenging and.

[00:28:25] it's important to say, we're not talking about sort of, I don't know what, toxic positivity or whatever, like just changing. We're saying have an awareness of where you're at in your nervous system. Feel the emotion that you need to feel, whether it's anger, irritability, sadness, grief, whatever it is, but you cannot live there forever because that's how we get stuck in those nervous system states.

[00:28:47] Yeah. And that's how chronic symptoms perpetuate and continue. Yeah. just a thing to ask you when it comes to say feminism. Mm. And like we used to sit, we used to both sit with Sam and we would be angry all the time. Yes. We were angry feminists. I used to be like, angry even about, like, there was a time actually where I was angry about Rob, who's an obstetrician, and I was angry that he was a gynecologist.

[00:29:13] like I felt this shouldn't be done by a man. Like I was just, And it just creates such separateness. And this is a man who does a beautiful job and helps a lot of women. And, it took us What, what shifted you from that anger? 

[00:29:26] Dr Thea Bowler: it was funny because we used to sit there and tell all the stories from all the patients we've seen, and that was certainly like a big source of my kind of trauma is hearing all the horrible things that my had experienced.

[00:29:37] Just feel so angry about it. And Sam used to always just say we have to all be one. the division isn't serving anyone. And it kind of was very foreign to me at first, and I never really agreed with it. And then I think it was when I. Read the Power of Now by Eckhart Tole again for the second time in [00:30:00] that kind of time of my life where I thought, holy crap, like we're all just living out our pain bodies.

[00:30:07] And particularly with feminism like that is just the ultimate collective pain body, which is where stuck in the grief and the anger and the sadness of all of the suffering that has occurred. Hmm. And it's not to say we forget that the suffering has occurred. It's not to say that we discount any of it, but there's no way that we can move forward into a world where there is.

[00:30:31] Equality and equity and more love and less division unless we move out of that anger. Mm-hmm. Like, it's just totally impossible. 

[00:30:40] Dr Peta Wright: Yep. And coming together in terms of like the wider humanity and not having that separation with men and women or understanding that, that our biology is different for many people and that we require different things.

[00:30:56] And generali, there are a lot of generalizations that you can make about femininity and masculinity, which we won't go into now, but that we need each other. Mm-hmm. And we are one. people, we need each other. And like the divisiveness keeps women trapped. 

[00:31:11] Dr Thea Bowler: Mm-hmm. 

[00:31:11] Dr Peta Wright: And it also keeps men trapped because the system of patriarchy isn't a system that purely like it.

[00:31:19] It traps men as well, and it keeps them stuck and separate. like that really shifted for me. And also like feeling angry is crap. Like it's not really good. Like, I mean, when I feel angry about say medical things, that makes me feel angry a lot of the time when I see women who've had 20 surgeries Yeah.

[00:31:36] Or whatever. Or doctors who I think are negligent or obesity like that. Makes me angry, but then I think that anger doesn't help anyone. And for whatever that person has gotten through that journey for whatever reason, and I don't know, and I can't judge, and learning how to release that. Anger and judgment helps your own nervous [00:32:00] system.

[00:32:00] Mm-hmm. To feel more. Settled and safe, and that's actually what my patients need. Yeah. They don't need someone on their high horse ranty and angry and judgy and perpetuating their own pain. Exactly. And that's the thing. And whatever that happened in that journey with the person, they have experienced what they needed to experience.

[00:32:20] And generally speaking, the people that have been. The rescuer in that triangle are doing what they think is the right thing as well. cause I used to be like, I don't know why people aren't listening to us talk about the things that women are experiencing and all these surgeries, all these things aren't helping.

[00:32:35] And it was just so upsetting. I used to like think about it at nighttime. I used to like be something that I would be constantly feeling. 

[00:32:43] Dr Thea Bowler: Mm-hmm. 

[00:32:45] Dr Peta Wright: And when we could just let go of that and be like, look, the best thing I can do for myself and for my own patients and for my family is to just show up and be grounded and at peace with whatever comes and be there and be present and be present with whatever shows up.

[00:33:02] And that's probably the way, the only way we are gonna affect any kind of change that isn't just perpetuating the same old thing, which often happens with a lot of. Activism? 

[00:33:14] Dr Thea Bowler: I think so. And I think a person, a woman who is present and who has worked through her pain body and who realizes that the only change she can make is within herself self.

[00:33:28] Mm. Almost Ben is in a nervous system state where. that person moves in the world, they're more likely to make more change because their nervous system is speaking to and co-regulating with other people's nervous systems that mean there's more love going out into the 

[00:33:46] Dr Peta Wright: world. Hmm. And they're more likely to see.

[00:33:49] To meet good people, they're more, probably more likely to have better opportunities 'cause they're not constantly in that something that is always gonna happen to me and not being able to even see the, [00:34:00] the good opportunities or the glimmers in life. Really nervous system regulating. And I think this is also to say it's not like none of us have actually control.

[00:34:09] No one actually really has control over what happens, right on the external. But what we do have control about is our response to our reaction to what happens to us. And I think that then changes. 

[00:34:22] Dr Thea Bowler: Absolutely. And it's not to say you don't take action in the world, but when you're taking action from a place that is really grounded and calm and present and not acting from a pain body, the action that you take is far more likely to be effective.

[00:34:40] Yes. and if you even think about it, like we've, we've emailed various news outlets to talk about, I guess. The damage that has been done from, the paradigm that is used to treat endometriosis for a very long time and got very few responses, and then you texted someone today and got a response.

[00:35:02] Mm. So maybe that's something 

[00:35:04] Dr Peta Wright: me Well, we'll see. I know, but it's just coming at it from a different energy. It's like, well, if. Then the world isn't ready. Or we can only do what we can do in our corner of the world by keeping our own nervous systems, right? Like by responding out of love and inclusion and things like that.

[00:35:22] But I think it's really worth having this conversation or bringing it even up. 'cause I don't think people think about this. Not 'cause you're just in it, And I think it's one of the reasons why endometriosis, particularly in pain, have been something that. It can be really political because people like desperately want help and support and like we were talking about the guidelines, the recent guidelines for endometriosis that are coming out and pretty much it's like, There's a lot in it that is really, it should really be pelvic pain guidelines and endometriosis that you can may consider. Mm. But it really is taking endometriosis out [00:36:00] of the spotlight as the cause of pain and doing surgery as the only thing that you can do to help. Because we know that's not evidence-based, but you have to have those words in everything because they're the only ways that you get money from the government, because that's where the politics comes into it.

[00:36:15] Dr Thea Bowler: Yeah. 

[00:36:15] Dr Peta Wright: And because there's so much. Anger and fear about being gaslit or ignored or not validated and not understanding that you can be validated in your experience and that treatment. doesn't have to be the endometriosis paradigm, but everyone's very afraid of stating that. Yeah. And shifting that.

[00:36:33] And that's what makes it so political, which probably has made it such a difficult thing to. Get clarity over and help and support for women that isn't like unclear. 

[00:36:43] Dr Thea Bowler: Mm, 

[00:36:44] Dr Peta Wright: absolutely. So do you think that you have any victim consciousness? Like where in your life are you feeling that 

[00:36:53] Dr Thea Bowler: I think I probably do in my relationship.

[00:36:57] Mm-hmm. not in a way that's. Damaging. But I notice things that pop up Hmm. Sometimes in my head and I think, Hmm, that's an interesting thought. Why are you having that thought? Because it's always around the same thing sort of scenarios. But what I'm trying to do is not react and just notice, like notice the thoughts that come up and just let them sit there.

[00:37:21] And particularly in relationship, like. The only thing we can change is, is our response. And I've noticed that in just doing that, in not reacting and not responding, things seem to be lighter and happier. Mm-hmm. And my husband would probably have no idea than any of that's going on. It's all like, it's all me or me.

[00:37:39] I was listening to someone talk the other day and they said, the only eyes you can open are your own. I think that's just such a beautiful thing, 

[00:37:47] Dr Peta Wright: and that automatically can take you out of that victim consciousness because there's no one to blame. No. It's all you. Yep. and that also is empowering and like, takes weight off you because you're not responsible for other people's [00:38:00] actions.

[00:38:00] You can only be responsible for you. I agree. I think in some of my relationships, not my husband relationship, but some other relationships I noticed. I felt wronged by something. And then there's this sense of like righteousness about it. Like, they're wrong. I'm right. Mm-hmm. And this deliciousness about being the victim in that moment.

[00:38:21] Yep. Whereas I don't think there's any need for anybody to be wrong or anybody to be right. I think we're all operating from places that we really have no idea about where the other person is from and the whole. The taking it personally thing then means that you respond in a way that you don't wanna respond.

[00:38:38] I just had an argument with someone he yesterday in which that happened and I respo took it personally, responded then like, had several conversations with another person about, God, I can't believe this, this person's, how dare they? And then I was like, oh, maybe they were actually having a really hard time, maybe that wasn't remotely about, you and my response has just made it a thousand times worse. And just by staying in that, that's how, I guess relationships don't become more intimate or you separation basically. Just more and more and more and more separation. 

[00:39:10] Dr Thea Bowler: Yeah. 

[00:39:11] Dr Peta Wright: So I think it's a really good thing to think about just in your normal life where you might be operating from that point in the collective.

[00:39:19] Mm-hmm. Like we've had to examine with our, like the women's pain body thing. Yep. Because also when I think about that, it's the last thing when you then think, okay, when you've moved beyond that. You have to go through the victim bit, you have to go through the anger.

[00:39:33] 'cause I guess anger is like a bit more mobilizing in your nervous system more than hopelessness. And then reaching a state of acceptance and then reaching a state of like being in the now and then realizing, you can let that go and have, you can see the incredible things about being a woman.

[00:39:55] And it's not, not even about the incredible 'cause you just are one, but you just have to Yeah. You're just being, you're [00:40:00] just being, yeah. And you're not having judgments about anything. That's right. like that's a real freedom. It's free. Mm-hmm. So we would implore you to say, where are you feeling those.

[00:40:10] Victim consciousness vibes. In your lives. And think about what, what are your core beliefs? Mm-hmm. What are the beliefs that are underlying, and how would your life change, or how would you feel if you let go of that victim consciousness if you were no longer a victim and if you had power mm-hmm.

[00:40:29] And you weren't helpless and you could enact change, How would you feel? Yes. How would you feel and what would your life look like? Hmm. Because that's the exciting stuff. Yeah. That's actually what we care about talking about. I know. Rather than, uh, you have this of pain, have magnesium have to do that.

[00:40:46] Yes. We like these. This is the juicy bit and this is the bit that actually matters. 

[00:40:50] Dr Thea Bowler: Yes. The living a joyful life 

[00:40:52] Dr Peta Wright: part. Okay, well we've rambled on again, so, I hope everybody has a beautiful week and we will see you again next weekend. Please. Email us at hello ve wellness.com au and let us know what you would like us to talk.