Victim Consciousness and how it keeps us stuck (Part 2)

This week, we’re continuing the powerful conversation we started in Episode 32 about victim consciousness – and how it shows up in our lives in ways we might not expect.

But this time, we go even deeper.

Dr Peta and Sam explore the unconscious patterns that keep us stuck – from our beliefs about who we are to the stories we tell ourselves (and others) about our pain.

Together, they unpack:

🌿 Why victim, rescuer and perpetrator roles always co-exist – and how we can move beyond this triangle

🌿 The subtle ways women are taught to bond over suffering (and what to do instead)

🌿 How shame, superiority and saviour-complex behaviour keep us disempowered

🌿 Why our language matters (and how to stop casting spells like “I have to…”)

🌿 How our beliefs about our body, our past, and our identity shape our suffering

This episode isn’t about blame or denial – it’s an invitation to start recognising your own patterns and beliefs, and gently shifting them so you can experience more joy, peace, and presence.

🎧 Listen now to part 2 of this raw, transformative series – and let us know how it lands for you.

Resources mentioned:

• The Wheel of Consent by Betty Martin
• The Four Cs Practice (Don’t complain, compete, compare or criticise – from yogic tradition)
• The Power of Now by Eckhart Tolle
• Teachings from Caroline Myss and Byron Katie

Questions and topics:

Do you have a question about this episode or a topic you want us to explore on the podcast? Send us a text (link above episode description), a message on Instagram or email us at marketing@verawellness.com.au.

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DISCLAIMER:

This podcast is for information and educational purposes only and is not intended as a substitute for medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment.

Transcript

[00:01:00] Peta: Hello and welcome to another episode of Women of the Well. I'm Peta Wright. And I'm Sam Lindsay-German. We are gonna do a part two of about victim consciousness because we think that it's just such a huge important, like very deep and at the heart of so much of our suffering. 

[00:01:22] Sam: Well, it's the 

[00:01:22] Peta: heart of all of us.

It's the heart of all of our suffer. That's right. Yeah. I know we got a, um, someone said you could do a podcast on like painful vulvas or something, and Theo and I were like, we could, or we could talk about something like at the heart of everything. And I think that it probably, we could probably talk about it over multiple, multiple episodes, but I thought also having Sam to come and talk about things from a more spiritual perspective as well would be really helpful because what we understand as well that it can be a really difficult thing to get our head around because it kind of turns.[00:02:00] 

The way, even like the fabric of our society, how things work a little bit on its head. 

[00:02:06] Sam: Yep. Because they're all based on beliefs. Mm. And this is one of the most challenging things that we're ever going to have to do, particularly as women, is take time to do an inventory of our beliefs. What are my beliefs and why do I have them and do I want them?

And how are they affecting me? And we sometimes don't even know why we believe what we believe and we can't unravel that enough because it's so far down into the, you know, womb from where we were in our mother's womb and, and when she was, you know, in her mother's womb, that it's actually become part of us.

And so these questions that we're, I. We are asking today and even this topic, which you know, isn't a spiritual point of view of looking at it. We don't talk about victim [00:03:00] consciousness very much in spirituality. We more would be contemplating, am I blaming outside versus coming inside? It all comes back to, you know, self and coming back to that sense of our inner truth.

When we're in victim consciousness, are we in our inner truth? 

[00:03:21] Peta: Yeah, that's, and like what would you say is, because I think as well people find it hard to understand like, what, what is suffering? 

[00:03:30] Sam: Well, suffering is anything that's causing you. To not be at peace. Mm. And not to be in the present moment. Yeah.

Peace is is a big thing. Exactly. Content. I think content really sums up the present moment. Mm. Because to be in the present moment is to be content with all that it's 

[00:03:46] Peta: or to be, to not have acceptance of what, with what is that Anything where we don't have acceptance with what is causes us to suffer.

That's right. And we talked a lot in our last episode about how that can affect our [00:04:00] health. That non-acceptance will have us, you know, in those, that dysregulated nervous system state, which has so many links to chronic disease and pain and other things. So when we talk about this, it's not like we're talking about individual people.

We're talking about a collective, societal way of viewing each other and the world. So if we go back to that idea of the, um, triangle, so the victim. The perpetrator and the rescuer and they all need each other, 

[00:04:34] Sam: which is entirely how our world is set up. 

[00:04:36] Peta: Yes. 

[00:04:37] Sam: And we, that's one of the stories that we have and one of the beliefs that we have.

[00:04:43] Peta: And we need all of those things for the triangle to continue to exist. So, which is why like if we, if everybody actually felt empowered and was not in that for coming from that victim anymore, then the rescuers would all be out of jobs [00:05:00] and we wouldn't have anyone to blame in the perpetrator. Yeah. And the whole thing would fall apart.

So we are all engaged even if you're not recognizing yourself in the victim. But I would say there's lots of parts of our lives where we would identify as that and other parts where we might identify as the rescuer. Absolutely. And other identify parts where we're the perpetrator, where all of 

[00:05:19] Sam: those three at all different times.

And that's the key point is to recognize, to actually come back to. How do we, so if we wanted to not go through the rest of the podcast and we want you to just click this immediately, it's just to resolve that, to recognize that that triangle, if we can just recognize they're all one person, they're all the same, that none of them are correct, none of them are the right, none of them are the wrong, they all just are.

And then we would alleviate suffering. 

[00:05:52] Peta: Mm, yes. And I dunno, like I think if you can see all of those roles for what they are, each [00:06:00] role. Before we can get out of it has a purpose, which can feel like a very confronting thing to say actually. But they all have a purpose for the evolution of a particular person in that, you know, like if without having a hardship or feeling like you're being persecuted without being a victim in a certain part, without being a rescuer, then if you become aware of it, then there are many, many, many lessons for you and none of them are wrong.

[00:06:30] Sam: And to connect that back to the nervous system, if you think about how it is that we come out of being in that stage where we've just become numb to everything, we have to go back through. Yeah. So we have to move back through. We can't just bypass the emotions and the feelings. So it's actually to recognize, yes, I have been a victim.

Yes, I have been the perpetrator. Yes, I have been the rescuer. And then really sitting with. What [00:07:00] those roles created for you and how it is that by holding onto those roles and feeling really like you need to protect them because they have kept you safe. Well, a perceived sense of safety, but it, that's the bit we can say that into intellectually.

Mm-hmm. The challenge is to go to the murky place that allows us to unravel that. Mm. And that's if you are listening to this and you are starting to feel emotions such as maybe you're feeling a bit agitated or you're a bit angry at what we're saying, or you're starting to think, oh, that's not me, da da, da.

Making the defenses, then that's my invitation for you to really take some deep breaths and to sit and just say, okay, I'm gonna be present for this and just let some of this unravel because it's not clean, it's not tidy and it's not linear. It's sometimes something lands and we just get big aha moments.

That's when we have to pause and contemplate, you know, [00:08:00] why have I found out about this today? Why has this come to me today? And what can I do to support myself in moving through it? 

[00:08:07] Peta: Yeah, and it's not wrong if you recognize yourself in any of those corners of the triangle. It's not wrong. It's just what it is.

And it's just part of where you are. And I think, as Sam said, we are not saying that you don't acknowledge, like if you have felt victim, for example, or the rescuer where you've got like, you know, you want to make things right, you want to rescue people from their pain. None of those things are wrong. And there's feelings that are coming up within you that need to be felt or acknowledged and or acknowledged.

And we're not saying you don't. Like you bury those. It's incredibly important that you, as Sam said, feel those so that you can then realize it's in the past and it doesn't have to define you going forward. Yeah, and I think when we get stuck, it's because the defining of ourselves in that [00:09:00] role, that identity has, we talked about this a lot last week.

Even though it's painful, it has given us something. Connection, love, empathy care in ways that we haven't learned yet. How to get in ways where we're free of that triangle. That's right. Absolutely. Because we probably haven't even allowed ourselves to feel the murky feelings, and we are just stuck in that.

[00:09:23] Sam: And that's why it's such an important element because you know, we have to, um. Going back, I just feel it's in interesting to explain it this way, 'cause we can do it yogically, but the polyvagal theory is the same. We can't do this, so we can't heal from the top down. We have to heal from the bottom up.

That means is that when we get down to that bottom place where perhaps right now you're just feeling completely helpless and you can't get yourself out of a cycle that you're in. The point is we have to work back up. So it has to sit where we are and start to notice where we are. Then we have to feel where we are, and then we have to [00:10:00] kind of bring up the emotions that we've suppressed and be in those.

And it's that churning up of those emotions and those feelings that we've denied that actually allows us to rise back up. And that's a really important part of healing. And it's actually the most important 'cause That's when people ever waffle on about somatic clearing and all that stuff that they do.

Really, that's it. If you want to clear emotions from the body, you've got to actually be aware of what they are. We can't do it without feeling. You don't have to do anything particularly magic with them, but as soon as you can recognize them and yourself actually say, this is what I feel. And allow yourself to be honest and open, then something miraculous happens.

[00:10:46] Peta: Exactly. 

[00:10:47] Sam: The other thing I was gonna talk about with this before we start on this thing we're gonna go through is about the link between shame and victim consciousness, which I was listening to. One of my really great teachers, um, Carolyn [00:11:00] Kaan, and she talks a lot about shame and I think it's just really understanding that so many of us are actually projecting or living a life that comes from.

Having been shamed. It's really part of our culture and we can all hope that we're parenting better now, but many of us were parented in a way that was quite shaming. So sometimes we have created beliefs around that shaming, you know, oh, you are not a good girl. Oh, you are messy. Oh you are. You know, all these, you pointing deliberately at me.

When you 

[00:11:36] Peta: to a messy, I felt you were, I blame my child because it's holidays. We may move on. Fine. I'll try not to feel the shame. 

[00:11:46] Sam: Interesting. But we, we go on and on, and we can think of sometimes in that what it becomes is this state of toxic shame. And when we're in this toxic shame, we literally are in a cycle [00:12:00] where we will do anything to sort of continue that cycle because we don't know how to get out of it.

So therefore, we're continually seeing on the external or. Things are showing up for us in our world that are supporting the beliefs that we were originally shamed about, which we're gonna cover in quite a lot of detail, which is probably why I overreacted to you just using your motion and the Mitzi. So if, but the point, what I'm trying to say with this, and what I find so interesting is that when we start to get clear on, oh, that, that isn't my fault.

We don't actually have to blame anyone, but we need to come back to that isn't my fault. This is a belief that I've had based on something that someone said and behaviors that someone had to towards me. And it's still playing out. I'm an adult, still playing out those sane behavior patterns. And this shame allows me the ability to keep playing that out.

So, [00:13:00] because I have shame, because I have trauma and I'm triggered in this moment, it gives me permission to behave however I want. Mm. So therefore I can use any of the behavior patterns that I want to, and I can feel validated without contemplating that perhaps that isn't serving me well. So we've got to come back to that moment of going, ah, so actually maybe I don't wanna behave that way, and I've got to come back and figure out why it is that I'm behaving that way.

Why is it that I reach for these things that I'm addicted to? Why is it that I continue these patterns that I do? 

[00:13:41] Peta: It's that awareness, and it's just that every moment, like hopefully maybe this podcast or any moment where you notice something that you're doing is an invitation or like a portal into understanding, feeling, moving past things that have defined you.

[00:14:00] So there is a psychiatrist whose name is Kelly Brogan. She's a US psychiatrist who has had a pretty interesting pathway in her life, but she talks a lot about victim consciousness as well. And she had a great podcast where she talked about the eight kind of signs that you might recognize that you're engaging in victim consciousness.

And that is from any corner of those triangles, not just the victim, as we all, like we said, need all of those to keep that whole consciousness alive. So we thought we might go through them and explain them so that you can see where these things might be showing up in your life if anything relates and think about where it has shown up or is showing up with us as well.

So the first one is if you notice that you're engaging in, um, what she calls commiseration connection. So that would be. Talking about when you are having, uh, [00:15:00] a conversation with someone, uh, when someone says, how are you? Is it like, oh no, I've just been really sick, or lots of complaints, or lots of not, you know, the, the poor me stories or talking about things that have happened to you that are not really good to get that connection with someone.

[00:15:17] Sam: Yes. Yes. So wanting connection by really looking for someone to feel sorry for you. Yes. Not really looking for connection, actually looking for sympathy. I always find this a fascinating one because it's the difference between someone, so the opposite of sympathy. Like empathy. Yes. That's exactly what it is.

How funny. Sometimes I say same. Mm-hmm. All the time actually. So yes. So the point is we want to be empathetic, but sometimes 

[00:15:49] Peta: Oh, compassionate is even. 

[00:15:51] Sam: Yes. But it's more empathy and sympathy. Yes. And think those two are often confused and sympathy is where we sort of get down in the mud and lay there with them going, yes, gosh, [00:16:00] that's terrible for you, and I have that too.

And we both have it and we're just there and just complete a pit of misery together. Whereas empathy is where we can recognize it when we don't have to be there with the other. Yeah. Temper the truth is what are we looking for in the other? 

[00:16:17] Peta: Well, I think you're looking for like, maybe people would say they're looking to be seen again, but only seen for that part of them.

I think this can be a difficult part where it comes to. When we think, when we zoom out and look at, say, the stuff that we do say with women with pain or endometriosis or those, or menopause or PMDD, all those things because, um, women lack so many avenues for real true connection, those containers have lack support groups, which I, we've said lots of times do lots and lots and lots of good, but they become these.

Containers of misery. Yes. Containers of misery where there's just a lot of relating to [00:17:00] each other through the illness. And until you get to the point where I'll see people or comments and things on social media where it'll be like, well I have stage four and do, and so therefore my thing is worse than someone else's thing.

And it becomes this like, yeah. Almost competition of who's has more misery. And that because that's the currency of connection. 

[00:17:22] Sam: Well that's why anorexic just can't hang out together. 'cause you're endlessly competing with the other. Mm. Even if you are saying you've recovered, it's not treat, it's just like a competing cycle.

Contemplate that, you know, it's terrible if you get people who overtrain, then they're with someone else. They're always gonna have that. It's like a feeding of the energy that is the opposite of what you're actually wanting. And so in that we sort of fuel each other into a crescendo of misery. Yes. And then we wonder, why is this connection not making me feel good?

That's my really important takeaway from this. How many [00:18:00] times have you been in relationships where you've known they don't make you feel good, but you've stayed in them? Because, I don't know, fill in the dots yourself. It's safe, it's easy. The fear of what do you do if you don't have it? And we do this all the time.

We do this with jobs, we do this with friends, we do this with 

[00:18:22] Peta: partners, and it's almost like trauma bonding. And then if you can't, then it traps you in the problem. Because if you all of a sudden realize, actually this doesn't define me. There's many more things in my life and I wanna go here and feel differently.

It's almost like you can't get connection that way. You can't be part of that relationship. So it keeps you absolutely stuck there because you need that identifying. Misery or pain in order to connect. So it really is a trap. So I guess instead like being just conscious of where that's happening in your life.

And [00:19:00] there's a lady who, uh, who's called, um, mama Gina, I can't remember her whole name, but she's this amazing embodiment woman. Like she had a school for a while in New York called the School of the of Womanly Arts. And she like taught women how to dress beautifully and to do, to dance and to being in their bodies and probably, but was like the like mother of all of the embodiment stuff that's come.

And she would talk it out doing like a brag instead of coming together and doing like this, well, what's gone wrong in your life and complaining about your husband or your body or your. Pain or your illness, it's like how can you share and connect with people over things that are going well or something that you are proud of or something that you've noticed that's beautiful or spark joy in your life.

And from there, it's a contagious thing as 

[00:19:53] Sam: well. That is definitely the anecdote to this. And I also can see how hard [00:20:00] that is as well. I was as you just before he said that, I was thinking one of the first things that we do when we meet people is say, how are you? And you know, sometimes we all talk about we are not really ready to listen, so why are we even asking it?

Secondly, you know, what are we actually looking for in that? We don't say, tell me something good that's happened to you today. We're actually in the, how are you? There's a, especially with women, I find it's like, how are you? You know, it's almost a waiting for them to say, I'm tired, I'm exhausted, I'm busy.

Busy. That's classic on, isn't it busy? Mm-hmm. You know? And then how do we respond if we hear someone doing what you're saying, when we sort of go, how are you? I'm so good. Literally have had the best day and everything is just on fire for me. Then. There's that moment where, how does the other respond? What happens?

[00:20:57] Peta: Because I think we're actually conditioned [00:21:00] to not communicate like that we're conditioned to actually, it is that whole like competition of competition And like my sister actually, she was talking about when she had her baby and she went to Mother's group and she would be in Mother's group and the other mothers would all be, and I think it's incredibly important that we all are able to show up authentically and say when things are not going well, absolutely.

We don't have to be like Pollyanna, but she would have the group of women who would all be, it's really hard and, and she would be like, that, I'm really loving it. And she, she ended up not going back because she felt like if she said, I'm actually really loving it. She couldn't get connection from women because they were like, well, couldn't relate, or Yeah, she wasn't able to, like, didn't have the currency to get in because she had a different experience.

[00:21:49] Sam: Yeah. So this just sums up the PAC mentality that we have, 

[00:21:53] Peta: and that's the whole consciousness that 

[00:21:54] Sam: we 

[00:21:55] Peta: have. 

[00:21:55] Sam: That's 

[00:21:55] Peta: part of our 

[00:21:55] Sam: greatest society. That's right. So, and also if you are in the pack that is [00:22:00] in this, in this sort of state, so let's say it's the, you know, misery of mothering, then it's a lot to leave it.

Because to leave it means that you're not part of it. So who will you belong to? And you'll be on your own, which is one of our core wounds of we don't want to be alone, we don't want to be cast out, because that used to indicate death and suffering. And so yeah, it's a big thing. So then we have to go and find, we have to go and find the other group.

We, we, sometimes we start on our own and people will ostracize us because, oh look, it's the. The one that likes mothering. Mm. And they'll it because they're threatened by their position. I often talk about this, it's a threat to others. So if you are currently in relationships where you have had a story that in your thing, it suddenly becomes quite a threat to others when you change that because they actually start to get confused as to where it is that they stand for you.

Which goes back to the triangle 

[00:22:58] Peta: or, yeah. Or it makes them [00:23:00] examine, well, hang on. Are there things about this that could actually be good or am I, do I just have blinkers on? So maybe it is you acknowledge what is hard and then you might say after you've acknowledged what's hard, that doesn't end there.

And so Mom and Gina's exercise is to share. So a brag, like something that did go well and we all might have something, you know, maybe we're talking about the baby. The baby did sleep for one hour. I got it. One hour sleep, that was good. Or a smile or something. And then a dream or a desire because we all have those regardless of what's happening from the outside.

And just even like having the courage to tap into it and like say it out loud. Something that can have us then more focused on that rather than the other things. And a gratitude, which could be something you're grateful for. And I always like do think about this sometimes and I'm like, oh my God, these children all leave all the dishes on the [00:24:00] table and they never empty the dishwasher.

And I then think. Actually, I'm so grateful to actually have children that I can cook for or that I can, or people in my life that are around me, and then, but sometimes I have to consciously think that. But when I think it, and it all completely changes and my whole so viewpoint changes. 

[00:24:19] Sam: I'm grateful for the mess because Yes, it's the children are here.

[00:24:22] Peta: Yeah. 

[00:24:23] Sam: And I like having them around. Even if I find it infuriating sometimes, 

[00:24:27] Peta: or I'm grateful to be kicked in the stomach when my eight year olds gets into bed with me in the middle of the night because he exists. You know? Even though right at that time I might end up feel grateful, but I think maybe just being aware and also like thinking, well, how can I acknowledge how I feel?

Because it's also like with neuroplasticity, we talk about this with pain. If it's just pain that we're focusing on or if it's just the things that are hard where we acknowledge that our society gives cache and [00:25:00] stuff to the complaining and the the victim role, really, like there's a power in it. But if we can recognize that, that's why we all fall into it.

'cause it's how we get connection and that's all that we truly want in the end. But then we don't get stuck there because if we continue to just think like that, then our, that's what our brain pays attention to. And it gets embedded in our salient mode network and our default mode network. And it just is how we think.

So if we can just interrupt it with, or just notice and then interrupt with, okay, had a terrible night's sleep, I'm feeling tired. But these things and encourage 

[00:25:38] Sam: other women. That's right. Exactly. So it's always start safe. Start with people that you know you can trust and maybe use these points. Hmm. Mama Gina from Mama Gina and actually say, let's stop doing this.

Because remember, some of these things are very ingrained in the way that we'll brought up. So it could be that you've been hearing these types of behavior patterns forever. And [00:26:00] again that comes back to your beliefs 

[00:26:02] Peta: and it's just such a huge different feeling that you get from, you know, everyone will understand this when they go to see that friend.

For example, the friend who, it's like the barrage of things that they never do anything about, that they've had the same list complaints for the last 10 years or whatever, and you leave feeling completely drained versus when you go and you spend time with people who are uplifting, inspiring, talking about, you know, like act, maybe even having experiences that are joyful or whatever the feeling.

And then what that does to your physiology is just so different. 

[00:26:39] Sam: In yoga, we have a practice of. The four C's. So it's where we don't complain, compete, compare, criticize, and you can do it for a 40 day practice. You don't complain, compete, compare, or criticize. That's a gold. And if you were doing that, [00:27:00] just contemplate for a moment how a day would be if you would say anything at all.

I think that's probably one of the, and that might be one of the most profound things. What would you have to say if you weren't able to do those things and then we start to address, I mean, we would even have to find some new language, 

[00:27:19] Peta: because if you're not doing any of those things, you are really more in the moment and accepting of what's happening in the moment versus wishing it to be different, which is what all of those things are doing.

Yeah. Okay. Since we're in one, we might move forward to two, which is that having, if you notice, having a sense of superiority at any time. And that might be a sense of superiority about like your journey. So again, comparing, so comparing yourself to yourself. Like looking at, okay, well a year ago I like I didn't exercise as much and my diet wasn't as good and now I've lost four kilograms and I'm [00:28:00] this other version of myself.

So you're you being better than your past self. Or it could be you comparing yourself to others. And it might be, well, I'm doing all of these things and the other people aren't quite, they're not as good. And I think when we are there, we're also engaged in this triangle. 'cause someone has to be bad or wrong or not enough, or not getting it yet or not evolved enough.

[00:28:24] Sam: Yes. And we like to keep our ourselves trapped there because we actually want to attack the other. So we'll have someone in our life who is all the things that just drive us sane. Mm. And we're saying that. Because ultimately we have a fear of that being ourselves. So we, we continually talk about it. You know, that person becomes the person that we continually sort of bring up, even though we don't actually want to.

I don't know, spend time together. 

[00:28:54] Peta: Yes. So Kelly Brogan talks about this thing called the erotic caress of the enemy. Oh, yeah. So [00:29:00] I would talk about it like, okay, so we endometriosis again, I'm going back to this really, this is, this is great. This is 

[00:29:06] Sam: a good example. 

[00:29:06] Peta: Yeah. So Thea and I would talk all like, we just would ring each other constantly and be like, oh my God, you know, this, uh, just, and it becomes out of like, with anger about this poor person, like times a hundred, who's had all these surgeries, hasn't been treated as a whole person.

This paradigm, this so damaging to women and feeling this sense of sadness and grief and anger and like, we would be particular, you know, particular other clinicians who we would see coming through, um, having treated a lot of these women, or like systems as well. And it's all we could talk about. It's all we, we were like sending each other.

Oh my God, look at this person said, look at this screenshot of this. This is so clearly wrong. Like, how can this be happening? And we said this, we hated this thing more than anything else in the world. We didn't wanna, you know, but this is [00:30:00] what we thought about it and talked about all the time. 

[00:30:02] Sam: So you were fueling it?

Yes. This is the whole way your attention goes. Yes. These energy flows. Yes. So actually you were helping to make it a big thing in your life and you were both doing it together. So you were kind of doing this. One and two. 

[00:30:16] Peta: Yeah. Why can't we see that our way is right? Absolutely. Why can't we see that this other way is not right and our way is right?

And I now think, well, firstly, that was a terrible way to live because it was just not very nice to have to feel angry all the time and to be talking about stuff that felt enraging. And secondly, who says it's not the right course of action for some people? And who says that by the time those people didn't get to me, that it was what they needed to go through to get to here.

And who says that? A way of treating that someone else is doing. It wasn't right to them or wasn't what they, that was in line with what they could do offer at the time and was what potentially that person needed. So, you [00:31:00] know, that's like a very big example of me totally doing that. 

[00:31:03] Sam: And I bring about, even today and this moment where this is like a little bit political, but there's um, whole fire around eradication thing occurring around our world at the moment.

And I was contemplating it 'cause it's happening. It was happening sort of along my street when I was walking this morning and I was starting to feel angry about the idea of someone invading my home and putting this stuff everywhere and watching them just do it on the side of the road. And then I was thinking about, you know, why would that person even take that job?

Mm-hmm. And then I literally just was like, stop. Mm-hmm. Where I'm now why would you assume that you know anything about that person? And that you can judge that person because they're doing that, when actually they believe that what they're doing is the right thing and that they're helping people. It's just that our viewpoints are totally different and neither of us have the answer as to who is right.

And the point is that [00:32:00] me attacking them or thinking they're a terrible person or whatever I can think didn't make me feel good at all. So immediately I just thought, okay, that, that you have to let that go. This is not a good place to send energy. Yeah, it will happen. Will happen. And there's nothing that I can do about that right now.

Even fighting to the death is not gonna do anything. Mm. The thing that I can do is accept what is and also understand that the other person. Is doing the best that they can do. 

[00:32:29] Peta: Yeah. And I think that sense of superiority or you know, best happens a lot with activism as well. Yeah. Is what 

[00:32:36] Sam: I was thinking 

[00:32:36] Peta: because the 

[00:32:37] Sam: ranch, I feel that's such a prominent thing around menopause as well.

And I can sometimes feel rage enough about certain different things and then I watch it and go, yeah, this is not where I want to go. I, I don't want to be just an angry, middle-aged woman screaming about all these things that I feel angry about because that's not the energy that I want to be. 

[00:32:59] Peta: And I don't [00:33:00] actually think it is the energy that any of us wanna be putting out.

But it is, feels like the only choice at times because it's, we're trapped in that sort of nervous system state of fight or flight, which is being a victim. Yeah, correct. 

[00:33:13] Sam: Literally, isn't it? So in that moment we are saying, I'm such a victim of this, I've got to fight my way out. And we have to ask, where has the fight come from?

Why have we created ourselves or put ourselves in a situation where we are feeling like we need to fight? 

[00:33:29] Peta: Yeah. Or just totally not accepting the what is 

[00:33:33] Sam: Well, that's exactly it, and I think that's a really profound viewpoint to come from. I. With something like this, because it's unheard of in our society because actually, you know, we are encouraged to continually fight, continually feel that we are the underdogs, feel that there's them and us that is massive.

Think about politics, it's all about them and us, and you're either pro it or against it. [00:34:00] And it's all about competing teams. 

[00:34:02] Peta: And that's where there's such division, especially now. And then we even, we talked a lot about the whole feminism stuff and you know, that thing of, well, like we used to say you probably, I, you would've noticed, but we were angry and Sam was then, 

[00:34:15] Sam: and 

[00:34:16] Peta: we couldn't understand why she was, we would say, I don't really understand why she's not angry at the.

Man, man, there was a lot of man, man hate from the beginning. Yeah. There was a lot. We would com sit under the tree yoga and like really complain about men and white men in particular, and any man. And like, 'cause we'd seen these women who'd have a lot of abuse. And so it's a thing that happens. But again, those men were probably in the, the ones we were complaining about actually trying to help from their position.

And we've, you know, talked about how we've realized that that's, that again, that sense of superiority in that regard. It's like the superiority in being the underdog and being righteous and you have all wronged us as a [00:35:00] group. And, and I think we're seeing that actually play out in what's happening with young boys and men now.

And that separation, which is just not good for humanity, not good for women, not good for men. And so I. 

[00:35:15] Sam: It's certainly not, it's certainly not the feminine way. No. And that, that's the, that's the key is to understand that it's, it's the opposite of femininity. 

[00:35:24] Peta: The thing that really got me was when I was angry and man hurting one day under the tree.

And you said to me something like, you don't wanna get to the point where you have the same energy that you are complaining about. Like we, you're using the same energy that hate, that like anger to complain about, you know, that oppression. And that's what I was doing and. It's like when, when people, there's horrible things happening in the world, everywhere and all of that activism, which is important, but also when that energy becomes as violent, [00:36:00] you know, matching the violence of what's happening in war, you know?

[00:36:04] Sam: Well, the whole point is that war is, and most things that we could assume is going wrong in the world is as a result of belief. Mm. Uh, we had literally this conversation this morning and I was saying, if you think about a war, both sides think that they're right. Mm. So So you need that sense of superiority.

That's right. So if I as a soldier go to war, I believe I'm the goodie. Mm. And the other is the badie. But the Badie thinks I'm the badie and they're the goodie. And I just find that whole thing. You just look at it. They're all about the beliefs we've been fed. They're actually about the indoctrination of us.

I. As a result of where it is that we're living and what we've been exposed to. Mm-hmm. And we see this happening within countries as whether, as well as within the world, within religion, within everything. And it's the idea of separation and the belief that you are wrong and I am right. [00:37:00] Rather than seeing that the other is ultimately you and that we're all the same.

Mm-hmm. One of my strongest moments was that I remember saying these soldiers, half mothers too, 

[00:37:13] Peta: and Sam, if everyone has forgotten, was in the army in her previous life. 

[00:37:17] Sam: So I have to forgive myself. Yeah. But you know, or not really because I was, and at the time I felt like what I was doing was the right thing and it can be the right thing.

I'm not saying it's the role thing I'm saying it's the understanding is what you're standing for actually True. And how do we ever really know what we believe is true? That's a big thing for me. How can we ever get quiet enough, clear enough, empty enough to really know that what we believe about something so passionate that we're willing to do all these crazy things for it are actually true.

[00:37:54] Peta: And I think that that's the key is that if you're ever in a belief system where someone else has to feel, be [00:38:00] bad and wrong for you to be right, then that's gonna create separation and division and perpetuate all of this and keep us all trapped. And remember that phrase, the erotic caress of the enemy.

'cause it feels good sometimes forget, like feel that sense of superiority and anger and, and so if you're feeling that, be aware. 

[00:38:19] Sam: It's really the basis of many female conversations. We just can't. Yes. We just can't get enough of like talking about the other woman, you know, that woman, whatever it is. And it can be, in fact, we're talking about the woman who's always.

Cheerful and happy with her life. You know, other women will just bring that down and get joy out of it. And it's one of those things, gossip, which women tend to, um, get addicted to gossiping about someone else is something that we get addicted to because it helps us to feel that we belong. We are finding that connection, but at the end of it, we feel young.

It doesn't make it, you know, and so it's recognizing I haven't got any business to be in anyone's business, but my own, and these are, and the [00:39:00] teachings of Barron Katie, but the only business that I can be responsible for is my own. I can't presume. To be in the business of another. And if I am in their business thinking that they're doing something wrong or why is her life so much better, blah, blah, blah.

Who is there with you? No one. You've left yourself abandoned yourself. Mm. And you're busy giving all your energy, uh, and to this area of your world that doesn't make you happy anyway. Mm. 

[00:39:27] Peta: And also it's freeing to be like, well, what you choose to do doesn't make you superior to somewhere else. 'cause it's freeing because then they're free to do whatever they want.

You are free to do whatever you want. Nothing's better or worse. And it's just what is. And also, we are not perfect in any of these things far from just in case anyone. It's like just being aware. Being aware and like life is a journey of such a so in case anyone thinks. 

[00:39:49] Sam: And I think that's really important.

And that is one of the things that I have really acknowledged over my evolution of life. Is that yes, we are not perfect. No one is [00:40:00] perfect and Quint is, we wouldn't really ought to pertain to be perfect because we were saying that we were perfect, then we would be lying. That's right. And because there's no such thing.

And the other is that in order to actually be able to notice when you're going into these patterns, you've got to start that process stilling everything and quieting down. And I feel like it's only really now that I'm coming into that stage of life where I can be a bit quieter at times, that I can really see that even more.

Not to say that it's not available at any other stage of life, but I just feel stillness and space and some pausing is necessary to become aware 

[00:40:44] Peta: and the experience of being ab, the experience of light, to be able to step back and have a greater perspective probably, which, which age brings. So. Three is if you have the sense of needing to fix something.[00:41:00] 

Which I think will fix something in another, which I think is definitely something that as a health professional or as a helper. Yeah, that's right. Exactly. A healer, a yoga teacher, a counselor. We have 

[00:41:13] Sam: all my stuff. 

[00:41:14] Peta: Yes. Yeah. And I think that's the other thing. I used to come home and be like, but why I'm doing all these things.

I'm really like, they're so close. Why weren't they, this bit of them, I can see it. Like why won't that bit be fixed? Yeah. And you like, it would just kind of ease away at me and I would just think I'd have this collection of a few people. I'm, I'm way better at it now, but I used to have like this certain number of people in my mind from my patients where I would like go to bed and.

Often think about them before, if they weren't the ones that I felt were resolved, oh God, how can they be resolved? Like it would really bother me. Do you remember what I said to you about that? Do you want to share it? No. Just remind me. 

[00:41:56] Sam: It was that. I said, do you really want to be taking them to bed? 

[00:41:59] Peta: Yeah.

[00:42:00] Do you really want them to be taking them to bed to take Exactly. That actually really did change how I think, because it's actually you. They haven't consented. For me to bring them into other parts of my life that aren't the consult room. They definitely haven't consented to be in bed with me and my husband.

So how, why do I think that I can carry them around with me? And why do I have the, who do I think I am to think that I have the power to fix them or need to fix them, or that they even need to be fixed? And so that was a big thing for me like it, because of course, if I think I need to fix someone, I'm being the rescuer and I'm keeping someone trapped in that victim mode.

[00:42:40] Sam: Yeah, I, that's actually one of the reasons I detest what I do. Mm-hmm. Really? So I, I often talk about this, like, I, I hate the idea of having to sell what I do, like sell, you know, yoga classes or it just doesn't sit well with me because it means that, and I always say this when I'm doing teach training, no one comes to yoga because they're, [00:43:00] well, no one says, oh, my life is amazing.

I'm gonna start yoga people come because on some level something's happening to them. So therefore they're already coming with that, that state of mind. And then looking to you as the teacher to give them something to help them with whatever it is that they're going through. They've already acknowledged.

That's right. So therefore you've already entered into that agreement. Mm-hmm. So I'm always trying to empower my students to know that I'm just delivering something that they have to do. It. It's not, if you're partaking then you are doing it. I'm just sharing something I've learned that worked for me. It may not work for you.

And actually, if. I ever dare to try and say that it's because of me, then I've taken that away from you, and then you are not going to be able to empower yourself. Yes. You know, it's why also, I'm really, I'm ter, I mean, I'm really bad at being this, so I, people say, should I come and see you again? I mean, uh, no.

Or yes, what? Whatever you [00:44:00] want, but I don't wanna tell you because if I tell you, then you are not deciding what you need and what is best for you and you don't need me. Yeah. I think this is the shift that I would love to see. I was actually talking to a psychiatrist about this the other day and I said, when I sit with a client and we arrived in the room together.

Or even before they've arrived, I take a few moments to sit with who's coming. I ask the question, why has this person come to sit in front of me today and what is it that they're bringing for me to become aware of? So I don't presume that I am there to fix them. I presume that they have actually come to be with me so that I can become more aware of something in myself.

And from there have the realization that I need through the interaction or the relay, the relationship that we're having with each other, that what open me to being able to hear whatever aspect it is in [00:45:00] me that hasn't managed to come to fruition or be present. So therefore, I actually feel grateful to those that come to me.

Show up, especially those that I ever have, that notion of channel do you keep showing on? Why am I not able to see this? That's the question I always have. What can I not see? What is it that still needs us to have this interaction? Our souls need to come and keep interacting. What is it that we've got to work through together?

And therefore it's, it's, yeah, I'm never going to be able to fix them. 

[00:45:41] Peta: And that's like a very good thing to realize. It's your jo um, a mentor of mine. It's not your job to fix. Someone, it is your job to say, maybe help them to, they're there to explain what's happening to them, um, what's happening in their bodies to give them options [00:46:00] for treatment and as a guide.

And ultimately I feel to help them remember that they have the power to make the decisions that are going to right for them going forward or to open, like open the door a little bit wider for them to go into the next part of what they need to learn. 

[00:46:16] Sam: Absolutely. 

[00:46:17] Peta: Or to help them understand sometimes that a symptom is not a meaningless thing or a, um, something to be squashed, but it's there to teach them something or to open a portal for them and just give them that different perspective.

But my job is not to fix it. No. Which is also why, like when you think about, I think so with pelvic pain and stuff like why. I, I think this very strongly, it is a sign that things are out of balance and that people are overwhelmed in our society and our environment isn't very good. So like the idea that we should take the pain away when it's a signal of something deeper, it's a symptom is like completely insane to me.

It's a symptom. 

[00:46:59] Sam: And that's the, [00:47:00] my biggest, my probably my biggest learning I ever had was that realization that the body is not working against me. It's working for me. Yes. It's always trying to show me, it is literally signposting me. Hmm. 

[00:47:12] Peta: But on a collective, how like that women's bodies are collectively saying, this isn't working for us.

So, but the idea of the medical paradigm being like. We just wanna squash the symptom and the problem, and our aim is to have no pain. That's missing the point entirely. 

[00:47:27] Sam: That's right. 

[00:47:28] Peta: Yeah. 

[00:47:29] Sam: And, and I'm just gonna share this because I think this sums up this lovely quote from Ramdas is my favorite quote.

Can I 

[00:47:34] Peta: share? Yes, sure. 

[00:47:35] Sam: If we can give up attachment to our roles as helpers, then maybe our clients can give up attachment to their roles as patients and we can meet as fellow souls on this incredible journey. We can fulfill the duty of our roles without being trapped by over identification with 

[00:47:53] Peta: it. 

[00:47:53] Sam: Mm.

[00:47:54] Peta: It's so beautiful. And you do think them, the best thing you can ever do for somebody is to be present and [00:48:00] for yourself is to be present in that moment 

[00:48:02] Sam: without the agenda to, and that's partly why I struggle sometimes, you know, when there's that whole kind of funny way about notes, not me, but the idea of keeping notes on people, keeping the history of people.

It's not really about what happened before they, the last time they came. It's about what's happening. Now, you know, rather than continually cycling up the stuff that was the story. Oh, well let's go back to why do we do that? 'cause it's not actually where we are now. So all we are doing is actually continuing that journey of, okay, let's go back to where you were.

Do you remember it was this moment that you had this happen and then there was a trauma and then there was this Yeah, uh, now they gone. Whereas actually it's about what's happening for you today. Like in this moment. Yes, that's a 

[00:48:51] Peta: problem. Much therapy, which is why that can often not and why somatic stuff can be much better.

So [00:49:00] what's the next one? Uh, four is similar. The belief that your role is to save the world and to save others, and I think. Yes, I definitely have felt that too. It's like it's similar to the other things, and of course I would just say that like if you are, that's like fitting into that rescuer mold, but also to think that one person can save all of the people in the world, or that you even know what's right for all of the world, when all of it is happening for a reason.

Even the things that you've envisaged as bad or wrong serving a purpose. Perpetuates this whole yeah. 

[00:49:33] Sam: Cycle. The idea that, again, that comes back to the idea that I know better. The idea that I know better. If you are well, you'll be happy, but we don't actually ever know that, and that in my experience of myself, it's the best experience I have.

We fixate on certain things over periods of our life. It could be children when they're small. It could be problems with your marriage, it could be problems with your body. It could be not liking your body. You know? Then the things that we absolutely fixate [00:50:00] on, and they become all encompassing, and I actually feel this is someone today, this will be all encompassing until the next thing is, and what fascinates me most is this.

Why as humans do we have to move from one thing onto the next thing. So even if we fixed the problem, there becomes another problem, which actually is what happens with medications. But actually what I'm trying to say is that it's like we're doing that to ourselves anyway, so we kind of create another problem.

I'm fascinated by it from a ripping back point of view because I've been really deeply sitting with this. So what you were just saying there about having a role being, you know, the savior of everyone. So then if we weren't doing those things, what would we be doing? 

[00:50:47] Peta: And I think, again, this falls into the wanting to save the world a bit.

It's like that, not just advocate, but activist, that seeing injustice or pain in the world. And I think if [00:51:00] you go back to the third one, it's that not being able to hold the discomfort of what it's right. So I think that when you think about wanting to save the world, it's, you see pain, you are angry about something.

You think you almost can't hold that collective discomfort or pain and you think I need it to be not there. And that is like what it is and it's like from a, if we take it then back, it's that inability to hold pain in ourselves and inability to hold pain or discomfort or a feeling that present, be she suffering in another.

Yeah. And so I think what you would be doing, and I think what I've arrived at it a lot more is instead of having that feeling or instead of going out and like making people think this is the way, this is the way everybody has to like be in their bodies and remember the, that their bodies are powerful and amazing and that they don't have to buy into this paradigm is people who arrive to me are the people who I'm there [00:52:00] to help open that door a little bit wider.

Yes. Without need to fix or save or do anything because it's my job in that moment is to be present and to hold whatever it is that they come with to me. 

[00:52:14] Sam: Yeah. Beautifully said is exactly that, isn't it? We need to do what's in front of us. Mm-hmm. Without actually looking for something else. And this is really good 'cause this is actually helping me to have clarity over this quandary that I've been having about, we fill our time so much.

We, we are here for so long, I mean, gloriously. And they're saying we'll be here for even longer. We're here for so long, we have to fill our time. We constantly just really distracting ourselves from that. There's just all this time, and because we are not currently under threat, we don't have dinosaurs and we're, we're fortunate enough not to be in a place where there's war.

We actually have just got to fill time so that we are not bored. Do we have to have problems to fix? And [00:53:00] so in that, it's like what would we do if we didn't have to do anything? And can we even contemplate what it is that we would do if we could choose? 

[00:53:09] Peta: Well, that's where joy and connection and curiosity and creativity arrive.

[00:53:14] Sam: We singing. That's an interesting Yes, because I think this one perfectly, what I've just said just leads perfectly to this one. We are sort of basically saying, I have to do this job. 

[00:53:23] Peta: Mm-hmm. Yeah, exactly. So the fifth one is linguistic spells that we cast. So when we use words that keep us trapped, like as Sam said, I have to do this job, I have to do money.

Yeah. I have to. I have no choice. I should do something. I hate this because we don't have to do any of those things. We don't have to like make dinner. We don't have to get outta bed if we don't want to. We don't have to go to work. We don't. It's like when we were doing our paying course, and I'm at the point where like say one of our beautiful participants said, well, I can't, I would like to do yoga teacher training [00:54:00] rather than be in my corporate job, which is meaningless to me, but I have to pay the mortgage.

And you were like, well, if you break that down, do you have to pay the mortgage? Maybe there's a mortgage that's smaller or smooth house or there's so many other things, but you're, but there's a choice that we choose. We're always choosing all of those things. So Kelly Kin says instead saying, I have to lead.

She sends like, I'm going, I'm going now. I 

[00:54:27] Sam: I found that. Yeah. Really inspiring. That's where we start to get group consciousness. Yes. At play in our beliefs. Yes. That's what I would say. I would say 

[00:54:37] Peta: I have to go now. 

[00:54:38] Sam: Mm-hmm. 

[00:54:38] Peta: Because I wouldn't even say I have to go, I would like elaborate further, but I have to go, I've got this appoint.

It didn't the time. Yes. The Overexplaining and like, of course I have to be somewhere else. It's like, you know, I don't know It Ha. It's very important. It's a dentist. 

[00:54:51] Sam: Well, it's to unpack the screening because the reason you're doing that is you don't want to offend me. Yes. Because if you're offend me, then I'm going to [00:55:00] not like you.

And then that's gonna cause. That challenge within yourself. So actually this is all part of, and we many of voices, women come through. Yeah. Description. Many of us have this, we actually just think, and we don't want to go first. There's that whole, I mean the whole slowmo thing, we don't wanna be the first to leave.

'cause what will happen after I've gone, so therefore we'll just stay until it's really late. And then you have to make excuses or, and it's so interesting to see that we've created this idea that there is always gonna be something better happening outside of ourself or that the other will judge us from having to do what we truly want.

And my anecdote to this is, if you are not doing what you truly want, and if you're not saying what is actually true to you, then you are indeed lying and therefore your relationship is based on light and you've never actually been truthful. So what does that say about your relationships? Are they authentic?

Many women will say, I just crave authentic [00:56:00] relationships. The first one is with yourself. What is it that you need and what is it that you're doing and is that actually your truth? 

[00:56:10] Peta: And it's also so powerful to realize that if you went through your day and even if just the one thing you did was catch yourself every time you said I have to and change it to, I choose to or I am doing this, then if in your like heart that doesn't resonate, that's not what you truly wanna do.

You have to realize no one's forcing you, no one has a gun to your head. You are choosing it. Interesting. Even like I was talking to you about this, and this is probably like bundling up probably number three that wanting to fix with number five, which is the spells that we cast. One of the things that I'd been struggling with lately was.

My little boys changed schools, which I felt like was a really good thing for him as a grown up person to a little person. But he obviously had some challenges in changing and [00:57:00] grief about letting go. But because I didn't wanna face the discomfort of his discomfort or grief or my own, I would say, oh, at the end of the term we'll just revisit it.

And if we don't like it, we can always change thinking. But knowing full well that I wasn't going to change. And then I realized from seeing somebody to help me with that was that by me not using my language properly and trying to avoid his pain and my pain, that it actually perpetuated his pain because he wasn't able, wasn't actually given permission to grieve the other school and to embrace and enjoy the new school.

And so when I was able to say very, just like, no mucky around, no, just this is the decision that he made. Then I watched the, you know, with a child who has externalizing feelings, it's like quite amazing to see it rather than just in another person who doesn't have that, see the anger, [00:58:00] the sadness, the pain, all of that be demonstrated in various forms.

Throwing pushings at me, et cetera. Anger took about seven minutes, and then it was like, mommy, I am sorry. I love you. And then. Since then has been in this abs, like I've felt this energetic shift. He's been like talking about going back to school. It's been like a huge weight that I've now free of and he's now free of.

So, and like that language, it's just a simple language and actually letting ourselves feel the feelings, which happened for like seven minutes and then it was over. 

[00:58:38] Sam: Well, what's even more powerful to observe in that whole conversation is what you were seeing was actually your own emotions. We played out through your child and this is this beautiful realization that, you know, my truth will set me free.

And that, you know, do you remember as a child saying, you know, it's always better to tell the truth. You won't get into trouble if you tell the truth. [00:59:00] There's something in that, because actually we don't start to create stories and we don't start to create what we would say karma or other things happening around them.

But when we don't see on truth, it becomes such a big thing that we worry so much about when, if I actually said it, you know, in a relationship and we have got something hidden, it becomes bigger than we need it to. Mm. And it eats away at us. Mm. And so it's just this realization that Yeah. If I'm honest inwardly and outwardly, then my relationships are all going to be based on authentic honesty.

Mm. And then this is so free. 

[00:59:38] Peta: Yeah. And then you think I, I also remember being invited to this like dress up party once, and I. Didn't wanna go. And I complained about it to all of my friends. Oh my God, this party is stupid and I have to go and I have to wear this specific thing that they've said I have to wear and it's gonna be so stupid and I can't believe I'm gonna have to do this.

And like, really, obviously there was this whole thing like, I'm like the victim. I, [01:00:00] but really I didn't have to go to it at all. If I didn't wanna go to it, I just didn't have to go. I would've. So why did you want to go? Do you remember exactly? I don't know. Probably so I could complain about how terrible it was.

I don't know. And get connection that way. Who knows? It's, it's just, it is so interesting or no, I know. It was to avoid the discomfort of saying, I don't want to impossibly offending somebody, but then offending yourself. Yes. And probably like, you know, engaging in all of the other things, which is so bad.

Well, I shouldn't say it was bad, but 

[01:00:30] Sam: No, no, that was what it was. And it was visual learning, which I, we've all been through and it's just, yeah, everyone can relate to that. Entirely. 

[01:00:38] Peta: So six is if you're feeling disappointment and resentment in your life, like we were talking about this would be doing something for somebody but expecting them to be grateful in a particular way.

Or 

[01:00:54] Sam: I, a simple, wonderful example of this, it just came to me and I always talk about it when, um, [01:01:00] from my own experience of doing it, when I'm teaching people to become teachers, they'll say to me, um, do you think that I should run a class on a Wednesday night? Because I've had students say that they would like a class at Wednesday at seven o'clock and their current day is say Monday at three.

And I will say, well, does that time suit you that well, not really, but you know, if they want to come. And I said, well, in my experience, if you move a class to accommodate a student. They will not show up. And you'll be there having totally messed your family around, having paid through the nose for a place that you didn't really want to be at.

And your students will have a very simple excuse like My child is sick. Which your child is probably sick and you've avoided being at home and left them. So we do this all the time where we actually sort of put ourselves in this situation where we think we're doing the right thing, or I'm going to lay on a new yoga class.

It's gonna be so popular and I'll be busting with people. And then, yeah, all [01:02:00] we've done is make it work for someone else, not for us. And in that moment, because if I'd made it work for myself, I could sit there in the room and just enjoy the quietness. It wouldn't matter if no one showed up exactly, but because I've moved everything around, put my husband out, my children out, and then I have to go into this guilt 

[01:02:19] Peta: shame.

And then resent resentment or it's like if, um, exact, that's a good example. And it's like, say if I see somebody and I see them for like way over time and they don't seem to appreciate it, or like they then are the people who like the ones you bend over backwards for, but then they don't seem to appreciate it and you're like, well, why aren't they appreciative?

And then you're resentful of that and you're like, no, if I had clear boundaries, then there's no reason for you to feel resentful. Or it's like if you do something for somebody in your family or a partner or someone and you might gift them something and you're like, well, why aren't they more excited about that?

Why weren't they as grateful? Yes. It's [01:03:00] like there's this, I was just looking up, um, there's a lady called Betty Martin. And there's this concept called the the wheel of consent, the art of receiving and giving. Whereas if you give something to someone but you don't really wanna do it, or you're only doing it predicated on a certain response back, you are not actually freely giving that thing.

And so there's gonna be resentment or a bad exchange of energy. It's only when you're giving something freely, regardless of like how that person is going to respond. You're doing it for like a really, truly altruistic reason that can't then leave you feeling disappointed or resentful. 

[01:03:37] Sam: Yeah, we call it selfless service.

And so can you actually be in true selfless service As a teacher, we should be in selfless service. Should be interesting use of language. But yes, the idea is that you teach in selfless service without a hook. The hook is where we have the hook on the other. Yeah. And I can see that this as well. I see in my mothering journey.[01:04:00] 

That would be why. Yeah. Parentees, I've done everything for years. Aren't you grateful? That's right. You know I'm not your slave. Yes. Um, and of course my children who are so wise, well often say, you know, I say, ah, you know, I gave you life. I've given you everything though to say I didn't 

[01:04:16] Peta: ask to be born. Yes.

It is the cry. It was the child. Yes. And um, 

[01:04:22] Sam: and of course, and they're right. It's so funny and, and so infuriating and everything in you wants to fight it, but it's the truth. And I, I contemplate that all the time. What am I doing? You know, what am I offering to my girls? I do it. Sometimes we go out and I say, oh yes, I'll buy you that.

And then at the end of the day I'm like, gosh, we just spent so much money. You're not grateful for anything. You're grateful enough. Yes. And I listen and I go, oh, I'm so sorry. That must just be a. Belief I had from childhood myself of being told that it comes up and you see it and then it feels gross. I 

[01:04:57] Peta: know.

I was like, just thinking about, um, [01:05:00] I think Rob was having an argument with one of the kids and he was like, and I'm grateful and I like do all the things, like I buy clothes. And she said, well, they're basic parenting things. And I was like in the room going, mm, yes, that's true. How could there things, she's like, you know what would be being negligent parents if you didn't do this?

And they're like, a base you need's 

[01:05:20] Sam: Very true. And, and that's Yeah, exactly. That is exactly right. So why have we got to this? And they're just generally there are things that we've heard ourself and that's one of the other things about shame. Well, we have, um, when we've experienced Shang, we've been shamed.

Um, especially if it's toxic shame, then we are much more likely to, to do that to another. And I find that just is. Such an interesting observation as a parent, 

[01:05:45] Peta: or it's like if you, I remember, um, when my oldest child would let go off and go for a run and I would be like doing the dishes thinking that's all very well for you, but I have to do all the things.

And then I was like, well, why am I making myself out into you? I [01:06:00] could go and do that, and any other time I could not do the dinner and they could come back and have dinner at half an hour later. But why am I having this like, delicious feeling of I'm the victim in this? It's like, yeah, I guess that's another pointer.

So you're doing things for a certain reaction or feeling resentment. 

[01:06:16] Sam: Yeah. So yeah. So good to see. 

[01:06:19] Peta: We seven is where are you buying eggs from the hardware store, which I think is just so, such a good thing, which I've heard like is a, uh, I don't know whether Kelly Brogans coined it, but I've heard her talk about it.

Say you want a loving relationship with someone who. Gives you attention and affection and cares for you, but yet you're going out with someone that you can't stand who doesn't treat you very well and you're continuing to go out with them instead of making them the bad or the wrong person. It's like realizing that they just can't give you what you want.

[01:06:49] Sam: That's right. It's the, the wonderful where often explain this is through, um, 'cause I often speak to women about marriage because I feel I've done [01:07:00] it for well, but is this idea that we, you know, we think I want my husband to be more romantic. Therefore we need to be more romantic. I would will let my husband to buy me flowers and buy yourself flowers.

I really need to have a really long chat about my feelings. Well, then you either need to go and find a girlfriend because this person can't do that for you. But that doesn't say that they're a bad person. It just means that they don't have the tools to give you that. But they can give you all those other things that you equally do need.

And we are just trying to sort of, I don't know, get out of a. You know, get outta them things that are just not in their shop. 

[01:07:38] Peta: It's also like one, a big one is like seeking love or approval or a particular kind of relationship that you think you should have with a parent. I feel. Yes. And like continuing to go back and then be disappointed if you don't get that response.

And I had that with like an ex, with a parent and then when I stopped going there, now I have a relationship [01:08:00] where I have all of that actually. Like it's, it completely changed I think because I just let it be what it was. And it's so 

[01:08:08] Sam: that, that's a beautiful example and so true because once we let go of the expectation of the other, it actually frees up all expectation of us.

And I think that's one of the things in those, certainly parenting. Relation to, we were talking about either a mother or our father. We have to remember that actually it's keeping ourselves trapped because I have to behave a certain way in order for them to behave a certain way. But if I'm gonna let go of you needing to give me something, do something for me that frees me from the role.

Therefore, you are both free. That's right. And actually that's what's been keeping you trapped is that, you know, this is the thing that we have to keep doing. 

[01:08:48] Peta: I've just had a realization that I need to do that in another relationship as well. 

[01:08:52] Sam: Yes. And that's a beautiful example, what you just gave us for about parent, because I say this Optum to people, [01:09:00] you don't actually have to tell the other that you are doing it.

You don't have to say to the other, oh, I've, I've made this decision that I'm not gonna want anything for you. Because as soon as we do that, we're actually creating a new karmic or chord where the other is thinking that you are judging them. But if you just sit and do the work on yourself, everything outside starts to change.

Hmm. And that's the, that really is the crux of the idea of spiritual teachings. That it's what we're doing on the inside. The work we're doing with ourselves is what creates the view that we are seeing outside. And that's exactly what you just explained. Nothing changed mu har from the way you were feeling inside and what you, as you said, were expecting.

'cause you changed your own belief. 

[01:09:48] Peta: Yeah. Like Thea said, the only person's eyes you can open are yours. The problem if you think you're having a problem with someone, it's always you really. And then the final one, which we [01:10:00] should finish up with is scarcity and entitlement. So where are you feeling a sense of scarcity, which is like the feeling that everybody else has this thing that you don't have.

Yeah. And entitlement as in I am owed this thing, or I should be able to have this, or someone has to give this to me. 

[01:10:20] Sam: This is massive in our world. Mm-hmm. And in our future. And I think it's based around the fact that there is always someone that has some, someone that has more, which is actually part of how our culture works, because we work in a hierarchical society and there's always someone at the top, and therefore we will never actually get to the top.

Mm. We'll always want more. And then on top of that, there's that feeling that I'm a woman, so, so I deserve and I deserve to be safe and protected and all those things that become loaded. 

[01:10:52] Peta: Okay. This could be a hard, I always think we don't really edit our podcast, so what we say is sort of what we say. And so, yeah, I was reading a thing in the paper the [01:11:00] other day, and it was a beautiful piece by a, a woman who was talking about her, um, experience with having a terminal illness, cancer.

And at the end she said, I just wanna see, like, I'm well at the moment, but I just, I wonder about how many Christmases I will have and like, um, I just wanna be sure I'm getting the right the next Christmas. And don't, doesn't everybody who's suffering with this particular illness deserve to know that. And I was like, but none of us can know that.

None of us are entitled to know any of that. And no one is entitled to live a life free of pain or suffering or free of illness or death or disappointment or hurt or any like. It's just not a thing that we're 

[01:11:40] Sam: entitled to. No. And it's really is the coming back to that original, you know, where we talked about, where we said that what creates suffering.

This is exactly it. This idea that we are lacking something. Yes. Or that we are entitled to something. And I think in that beautiful, um, example there, [01:12:00] I always say to people that the true end to all our suffering is to find an acceptance of the ultimate truth, which is that this will end. Mm. And then we actually have to come back to this moment.

Mm. And that we don't know when the end will be. We have no control. So we constantly want control. We're trying to find control. We are afraid to talk about death. We're afraid to say that we don't know when that could come for any of us, including those that we care about. And as a result of not wanting to go there, we ignore it, which means that we can't actually be present.

Whereas if we can accept. One day I won't be here anymore. We can just live each moment as if it is our last. And that allows us ultimate freedom. And I feel like this idea of scarcity versus entitlement is just all part of the fact that we just avoid looking outside in nature. Nature is a demonstration of the continuum of abundance that is always there for us, [01:13:00] and that there is nothing on this ad that we can ever own.

Because if any of you ever managed to figure out how you're gonna take any of this with you into the next life, please do share it. But there is no way you can't own a house. Really. Think about it. You can't own land, you can't own a car. You can say you do, but what is, what happens to that after 

[01:13:20] Peta: you are gone?

I think sometimes it's this like at the very, very root deep level, like we can say you're entitled to healthcare or education or whatever, all those things. But really it's like people wanna feel like they're entitled to. What they have, what they want without ever changing. Yeah. And that's never, as you're saying, there are cycles in life and we have to be very comfortable with the what is of each moment.

And especially when you think about discomfort. Like, I'm gonna read this like beautiful fears on holidays at the moment, which is why she's not here. And she said, she's sent me, um, a thing that she said she's reading a book called Northern Lights to her daughter. And it's, um, [01:14:00] this passage is about seraphina a 300 year old witch talking about pleasure and pain.

And it kind of reminded us of suffering and pain, illness and things. And so it says, why aren't you cold? Seraphina sala, we feel cold, but we don't mind it because we'll not come to harm. And if we were wrapped up against the cold, we wouldn't feel other things like the bright tingle of the stars or the music of the Aurora, or best of all, the silky feeling of moonlight on our skin.

It's worth being cold for that. And it was like. That's so true. That's like the CRAs. It's what is, because if we numb all the things that we say are bad, then we can't feel all the other things anyway. Hail, this is just so I'm a lot and I'm now a lot late for my patient. 

[01:14:50] Sam: Oh. So well, let's, um, repeat that.

So I 

[01:14:53] Peta: don't wanna say I have to go, I am going to go, go. I'm choosing to go to see my patient who might cross with me that I'm late. But anyway, [01:15:00] how we think, this is a really important discussion and we would love for you to send us in questions, things you wanna talk about, whether it's, um, gynecological things, these, these kinds of things are our favorite topics.

We always end up with death, unfortunately. Oh, sorry. Oh no. We ended up with death as well when we were doing our healing pelvic pain thing because our lady was like. Who was in the corporate job and we're like, well, what would you think on your deathbed? I'm sorry. This is where we, yeah, it's good to think about that.

Please let us know and we will be back with you next week. 

Okay. Bye-bye. Bye-bye.