The Power of the Podcast: Unlock Your Brand's Marketing Potential

Storytelling in PR: Donna Loughlin on Crafting the Perfect Narrative

• Pedal Stomper Productions - Josh Troche

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This episode features Donna Loughlin, an award-winning PR expert who has mastered the art of helping brands tell their stories in a way that captivates, informs, and sells. With an impressive career spanning decades and a client list that reads like a who’s who of innovation, Donna reveals why storytelling is the backbone of impactful public relations and marketing.

Tune in to learn:

  • Why press releases alone don’t cut it in today’s landscape
  • How to uncover your brand’s "wow and now" factor
  • The role of preparation in crafting authentic and effective stories
  • How AI can be used as a tool to stimulate creativity without losing the human touch
  • The importance of tailoring your story for different audiences and media outlets

Donna also shares insights into her "narrative story engine" framework, how to avoid the trap of generic pitches, and why a one-size-fits-all approach is a recipe for failure. Whether you’re a startup founder, a small business owner, or a seasoned marketer, this episode will inspire you to dig deep into your brand’s story and leverage it to build lasting connections with your audience.

 🎧 Don’t miss this episode packed with actionable advice and inspiration for taking your PR and storytelling game to the next level! 

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Public relations is a huge piece of marketing because if you aren't talking to the public, we can ask the question if you're just sitting in the corner talking to yourself. With that, my guest this week is Donna Laughlin. She has a PR awards list. Kind of reads about like a phonebook. And that comes from her ability to connect with people and her ability to help them in telling their stories. You want to connect, and if you want to learn how to tell your story better. Stay tuned. Donna thank you for coming on today. I really appreciate it. You've mentioned in stuff that businesses often focus on press releases in terms of the what's their instead of the storytelling behind that. They're trying to get information out instead of the storytelling. Why is that storytelling so crucial when they're doing those? Well, storytelling is not a press release. Press release basically is a factual document or statement that oftentimes needs to be issued. If you're a publicly traded company, you have certain milestone things financial, probative, compliance reasons to issue things related to your quarterly finances, your annual, any partnership announcements, new product introductions, etc.. Outside that, most companies I experience particularly younger companies are that aren't public. They lean in too much on the press release as being their story document. It's not a book. There's no chapters. It's literally a one page or maybe two page that is not going to document and tell your corporate story, your product story, or your trend stories, or what I call the wow factor, which is the relevant what makes you relevant. And to make yourself relevant, you need to have more than a one page document. You need to have different chapters that that wholeheartedly make sense. So my my next question is going to be with that. Why does this happen? Why do they say, here's our press release. This is this is the generic information about our company. Use this as our story. Why does that happen? I think it's just a bad habit, to be honest. In terms of just knowing habitually that, you have something to say, you issue a press release and I used to be a journalist, so I started on the other side, you know, of the communication side and and reporting stories. And when you're on the receiving end of story pitches and editors receive lots of pitches. Now, lots of emails. Right. And you don't stand necessarily stand out unless it is actually something extremely unique. So research, new key findings, a, new historical moment. It's a, you know, Ripley's Believe It or Not Guinness World Book record type thing. Things that that that stand out. Not everybody has those moments that they can continue to record. So I created what I call a narrative story engine, which is my way of looking at the world from a news reporters standpoint and creating stories that are based from not just the obvious who you are, what you do and how you do it. It's why do you do it? What is the impact that you're making? What is the Wow and now factor? What are the trends that are happening that you can latch on to. And big one. So what do you cares? It's funny you say the so what? Who cares? Because I do see a lot of stuff where people they talk about, here's all these wonderful features that we have. Our product has this and our product has this, and our product has this. And they lack that explanation of okay, well great. Why why do I care about this? Is that carelessness? Is that them just being excited about their features and not knowing that they need to grab this story? Yeah, I think it just comes to comfortability is that they they're so excited, internally focused on their product that they forget that the rest of the world needs to know the importance of the product. So the speeds and feeds aspect, let's talk about car as an example. You people, you know, if you go if you're shopping for a car and you're looking for a car, you're not only looking for a car with all the features, but you're looking for a car that gives you that good experience. Oftentimes, people forget that you're taking people on a journey and on an experience. Instead, they rattle off all the speeds of ease or whatever gadget they're trying to sell. And I just came back from CBS, and I like to eavesdrop in on these booth pitches, and I hear people talking about the xyz diddly squat, and I'm like, oh, and UPS now. I was fortunate I was at Sears and I was with my client and Bode Miller, the, you know, the basically the Michael Phelps equivalent of skiing. Right. And it was interesting to talk to somebody like, like him who doesn't come from the tech world or from the product world, but now is because he's an inventor and an entrepreneur, and he immediately zoomed in on the experience. And I think that's really rare, probably because he's such an experienced, driven person is that that to be able to ski and perform the way he does or it has in his career is clearly experience. I asked him, what do you think about when you're barreling down one of those alpine mountains and because I was kind of curious like, you know, is that like this? Oh, shit, here we go again moment or is it like, you know, is it a timing thing or, you know, it's rhythm? And he was you know, his answer was was really profound. He said, you know, I'm thinking about how everything's going to work together so that I'm actually enjoying it. And that's what it really comes down to. If I call five editors, I need to customize my discussion. And with them, I can't just assume, that my press release is going to do its job, and I need to make sure that my conversation is tailored to them. It's the difference between going into Ted Baker store and buying a suit off the rack and getting it slightly tailored versus tailor made going into an old fashion tailor. Same way you might go. You want a custom car, but you want a car that's just off the lot. I like to give all my clients a custom car, a custom suit, not what just came off the rack, and as a result, I get them work coverage bigger, deeper, you know, more relevant stories, whether they're broadcast or in print or online, because they're actually more meaningful. That makes a lot of sense. And it's funny when you say that, because I go back to like, how many times do we all get spammed with something that is, hey, here's blankety blank, here's what we do. And it's like nothing is relevant to me, my business what I'm doing. But if I would tailor that message to or if they would tailor that message to, hey Josh, I saw the podcast where you had so-and-so on, and it did really well. That's something that I'm going to pay attention to, and that's something that I'm going to acknowledge and work with. Then. Well, you get those value packed coupon things in the mail. Yes. And you're like, do I want to open it or not? It's kind of like that experience. So you open it and you're like, you go through and you're like, okay baby, no, no, maybe. And it might be like, it's really clever marketing because there might be two things in there that you might maybe do. And the rest of it is like, no, I don't need windows. I don't need, you know, I don't need insulation, I don't need, you know, there's tire servicing, but then there's like, Ace Hardware is always a yes for me because I'm going to go to Ace Hardware next 90 days. And then there's like, you know, something else that's pet related or that it's like, yes, that's a little bit like the press release is that there's a flurry of them out there. And to be seen and to be heard, you need to make it. And, you know, as I said, you can use the the must have press releases as monikers. But I just had this conversation with a client yesterday to do a press release. You know, it's like to be or not to be. And I said, I think it's a blog post or LinkedIn post that everything needs to be a press release. Interesting. That's it. When it comes to that, I know that there's most smaller businesses will say and non startups, non funded businesses, things of that nature don't go to the press. They don't do the press releases or things of that nature. Do you think that's a missed opportunity for a lot of the businesses like that? I think your initial cotillion release, when a company first comes out and says, hey, we've arrived, right? I'm sweet 16 and I'm here to stay. And after just because they're, they're in the process of, if, you know, raising funding or need some form of, you know, a series a, precede, you know, type funding. So you do need to put that moniker out there. But after that, I think it becomes a very selective process in terms of LinkedIn, company blog, video blog, you know, there's lots of different options. I and I think that, you know, the choice of the communication tools is equally as important as the style of the and the persona of the company. So if you're a deep tech company and your audience is, say, defense, government, medical markets that are very vertical, you can tailor a press release to those markets and to those particular wire services in a very niche versus setting it up to the entire universe and say, hey, Elon Musk has if you watched what he how he announces things, it's interesting because his companies don't issue press releases. They issue their, you know, they have their reports and their quarterly reports and stuff. But he has a tendency to be kind of the anti, I was going to say anti bully. But it's not anti-establishment in terms of communications, but it works for him. But just because it works for him doesn't mean it's going to work for, you know, Acme company 1.0 operating out of the garage with, you know, a cat because he can afford the dog and they need to raise funding that could work for them would be an exclusive, you know, opportunity with a publication like a TechCrunch or a VentureBeat, if they don't have the money to put the press release on the wire, and they have enough components to tell a really great story, sometimes taking it, taking a story and offering as an exclusive pays off. That's interesting. So it really is. It's it's like, I guess I would say, I mean, we always talk PR is a part and a form of marketing. It is a chunk of it sometimes, let's say often neglected by a lot of smaller businesses. But it's like any other piece of marketing if you send it out, if it is directed at everyone, absolutely no one's going to hear it. If you pointed at specific targets, you will hit those specific targets then is that more of the is that I guess would say the moral there? Yeah. It's exactly it's what you want the release to do for you or the content to do for you. So do I want to raise money then I need to speak to that audience. Do I want to sell product? I heard? I certainly hope so. Certainly hope. I help my science clients sell products that it has to have that tonality. Is it to attract partners or it's for an open beta? Or is it just to say, hey, I'm here, I need attention, I want to be at such and such show, come by and see us. And so there's really knowing your audience is key and the same. And it's like money. Like they say, money has energy. And if you can choose the right way in which you spend money and you do the same process and how you actually tell your story and whether it's going to go in the wire or not, it's very much that same energy. What is the energy that you want to convey? I just had a conversation a few weeks ago with, with the company that came to me and said, we want you to do exactly what you did for their client x, Y. Is it? But they didn't have the budget. And so but they had an idea in their mind what they wanted to achieve. And so I just listened to their, you know, their business needs. And I said, well, it's funny that you were so attracted to that flame, but that's not the flame you need. The flame that you need is actually even more hyper focused and not as labor intensive, and it doesn't require you to invest as much either. And I think I kind of shocked them because I truthfully told them what it is they needed to hear about, what they wanted to hear and what they needed to invest versus what they thought they needed. And so sometimes I take my clients to what I call, you know, a whole discovery process of crafting your story and really making sure the positioning and the messaging is on point and then to the audience that you're going to be speaking to, then decide what tools we use versus, say, I want to be in the cover of Forbes, I want to be in the cover fast Company. I want to be this, this, this, this. And that's a great goal to have. But it's the same way. If I were to go skiing for the first time, I say, I'm going to be boating. Miller. And I'm like, yeah, dreams are going to be short lived. So it's just my one of my one of my principle, you know, business monikers is to help my clients be successful using the right tools at the right time. And PR, to me, is what is part of the strategic business development as part of the strategic sales component. It's part of marketing, and it's also very much part of the C-suite conversation, because if a company's gearing up for an IPO, I need to know that if a company's gearing up to host 50 partners coming from around the world to talk about their latest robot phenomena, I kind of need to know that, too. So there's a lot of things that, thank goodness I'm, you know, full of curiosity because I ask a lot of questions. But I think that public relations is not just about blanketing everybody. Right? It's like, sure, you heard the term spray and pray. People will just kind of toss it out there like sprinkles, you know, and that's that's a very, short lived process. One of the things I think, also is now is there's a trend that people are thinking that artificial intelligence will replace the need for a lot of the traditional components. And I and I, I have very strong opinions about that because I think that AI is an enabler. It's a tool. It's a companion. I get it's like looking at this and the there's the source or Google or Wikipedia. Sometimes you get stuck. I'm writing a book, I get stuck, I can't think of the words. And I'll go to ChatGPT or OpenAI and I use it that way, but I don't use it to replace my content or thinking or writing any content or narrative. It's funny and well, I've got some good, interesting questions about AI here in a bit, because it seems like I don't know about you, but it seems like it might be a topic as of the past year or two. I mean, people have garnered interest in it. Maybe, maybe just a hint of that. With that. It's interesting. The thing that I've heard you say a lot of is that it all comes back to, and one of the things that we always preach is kind of that preparation. Do you think too many people are going out and doing the marketing and doing the press releases and all those things before they really have their story nailed down, before they really have this direction of that nailed down? Do you? Is that something you see a lot and what's the I mean, once again, what's something that someone can do just to correct that, to make sure that's not that? I mean, here we have a cart. Where's a horse? Yeah. You know, it's interesting, one of the, one of the things I think a lot of founders and entrepreneurs quickly lose sight of because they're so busy trying to raise funding and trying to build a product, or they're trying to, you know, you know, build a team is they forget the original reason, the origin story of why. So it's like I always say, why did you create this company? And I did a whole podcast on this. It's like behind the scenes, a moment that you actually decided to make that decision. So why why, why are you, you know, just why did you decide, you know, to create the highest, you know, fast, you know, fastest, whatever motors, Apple car, you know, robot that can scale skyscrapers and and so like, what was that moment? Because if you go back to that moment, typically that is really the origin and experience that you want your customer to feel. And that's that. Wow. And now factor. And so I think a lot of companies get really busy. And I think it was interesting if you look at somebody, you know, like Nvidia who's been around for a long time, I think one of the reasons why the CEO who's actually in, you know, in the same position as he has been since the inception, he's probably more relevant now than he was 20 years ago. But I don't think he's lost touch with the wow and now and the ability to actually distinctively talk about innovation and technology based on what's happening now, not what was happening 20 years ago. That's interesting. And that that makes a lot of sense, too, in terms of that, that here's why we started this, here's why we do this. It's funny because even as you were talking about that, I think back to that two things is one, what why do I do this? And I it, it refreshes that in my mind. And it's the same thing when we work with people on video, we get calls all the time. We need, we want to do video. And I'm like, great, why? And they're like, well, you know, video. And I'm like, why? What are we trying to do here? Yeah, well it goes back to like do, do you listen or do you respond. And people often we're trained to operate waste time looking at our phones. We seldom look up and we're always looking down. And it's like, well, if you look at the world slightly different and you look up and you, you know, you see different things, right? You might see a satellite, you might see, you know, cherry blossoms, you know, you might see birds, but it's it's like look at things differently. Right. And and so I think that's one of the things I've learned working in with a lot of automotive companies and you, you're talking about the experience, but it's not a one size fits all car and it's not a one size fits all experience. So as a marketeer, it's important for us to make sure we're speaking to the right audience. I'm going to call now, for example, Popular Science for a really deep technical story. And I'm going to call Motor Trends for really, you know, fun this road trip and, you know, type of story. And I'm going to call the Wall Street Journal or CNN or Bloomberg for more of a business story. And so they're very different textures, but they make a quilt. Oh I like that. Different textures, but they make a quilt that's oh, I think that's my that's a, that's my new favorite saying today, the Dolly Parton coat of many colors. I mean come on, I love it. So since we mentioned I, I, I'm going to go to that because it, it it appears that it's a thing now, it's this crazy little thing that they I mean, a couple of people have heard about it. There's good and then there's not so good with, with some of the AI stuff. The one of the examples that I always like to give with it is, it is a tool and it is like any other tool. Pliers can be a hammer. They're not a very good hammer, but pliers can still be used as a hammer. We've all done it. If you've worked on anything, you've got a pair of pliers you need to pound on something. The hammers all the way over there. I'm using the pliers. What? How do you feel that businesses can start to really use the AI tools that are out there? I mean, effectively, safely and still, I mean, tell their story with them without losing that the story. So to say to the robots, I guess I would say so I like to call I always intelligent, meaning not just artificial intelligence, that we need to be always intelligent about the tools that we use. And AI, to me is it's been in our, our environment for a while. So you think about, cruise control. That's I, you think about that's thermostats, that's AI. Those are very basic things that we adopted and embrace. But I think with any innovation and technology like you're talking about the pliers in the right hands, it could be powerful and really, really, you know, applied successfully and the hands of the wrong person and the wrong application. Innovation and technology can be ghastly, disastrous. So the things that I like about AI are the fact that I can actually have access to things smarter than me. In my home, in my car, in my pocket, artificial intelligence like ChatGPT, type services I think are great for same way video games were kind of entertaining. I find a little bit of whimsy and a little bit of fun. I gave everyone the challenge to go go to ChatGPT or OpenAI and ask him to, you know, give him a bit of information about you and have them write your, your bio or, or your or obituary or whatever is that you want a eulogy and see what it comes up with. It's a little funny. I think that's a, you know, kind of kind of a way my mind works. I recently did did something like that, for a friend. It was a birthday celebration, and I actually wanted to do something fun for her. So I, I wrote up something and I put it in ChatGPT, and it came back with some nuances that I thought, oh, I didn't think about that and just gave me some new fuel. But how companies can use that is in their in a communications department not to replace what they're doing, but to stimulate their mind and get them to be more creative. Right. And I think using, artificial intelligence videos, you know, when it's appropriate, I think we always have to think is about is it appropriate when do you actually hire a photographer versus doing AI generated content? You don't necessarily own that. There's going to be all kinds of licensing issues that are going to be coming at us. A few years ago, everything was blockchain, blockchain, blockchain, crypto, crypto. And now we're in the AI generation. And look what's happened with blockchain, blockchain and crypto. So there's a lot of bad people out there using a, you know, using a and there's a lot of good business reasons to use blockchain. You don't need crypto to use blockchain. But you but that's wrong. You. Yeah you need blockchain. But crypto needs blockchain. But blockchain doesn't need crypto. And and so there's a lot of things that you can use successfully with blockchain for pharmaceutical product development, you know, following things forensically and police and art and art and artists and musicians. I think the same thing is happening with AI. We're going to find out that in the music industry, creative arts industry, that people are going to be challenged by making hard choices of when to use a AI. Now, the AI in the wrong hands can mean people you know, identity theft and, and and, you know, content theft, corporate IP. I'm working with this brilliant company out of out of Berlin. There's actually doing things local resident AI, making sure my corporate IP and content is safe and private versus having it in the cloud. And so if it's in the cloud, everybody has access to it. But if you're a government, medical entertainment industry or retailer, you don't want everything. You don't want all your laundry hanging out there in the cloud. So I think not. So I think one of our responsible cities, and I talk about this often to my friends and big so they can prepare their kids and, and is or like, you know, under 18, we had to teach our kids internet safety, whether they follow the rules or not. We taught them we had to teach kids to responsibility and and make smart choices in artificial intelligence, too, because in the wrong hands, they're bad guys. You know, when I say the, you know, the bad guys, I mean, just general humanity, creepers on social media and stuff. We'll use AI. And so we have to be aware it's not at all you can either. We have to actually be able to make smart choices of when AI is appropriate and when it's not appropriate. That makes sense. It's funny because when you started talking about it, the players for me very quickly turned into a chainsaw that in the right hands used correctly done. Well, that thing is going to do some amazing things. If you put that in the hands of an amateur that has no idea what they're doing, and maybe they're going to try and cut a wall or a car with it, that is going to end poorly for pretty much everyone involved. Exactly. So it's interesting how the pliers evolved into a chainsaw. I, I think that's my new analogy. I like that I actually have to go check and see how many sets of pliers I have. Now. When businesses, I mean, for any business that's looking to improve their storytelling and to kind of go back to that, to telling their story and like, why do they do this? What's something that they can go to today and say, look, we really need to get back to our story. What's some what's a base that they can start at, what's something actionable that they can take and say, look, we need to reexamine our story. Call me, I love it, I love it. You can dump your shoe box on me, and I'll just listen. But I think the first thing is to not be afraid, not to be afraid to unearth and discover and maybe rediscover some of the key components of your successes, your triumphs, your things that work that haven't worked and basically re, you know, calibrate it. And so oftentimes what I'll do is I will start with like post-it notes, I've big, big three post-it things and put them on the wall. And it literally will, you know, start with, you know, with the, the attributes of a company. Like it's like, you know, strengths, weaknesses, opportunities and threats. And oftentimes companies will just start with their product again. And I'm like, I got to pull them back out because you have to look for the unobvious and versus the obvious, I go to your website and I mean editors in general will go to company website. They'll go to Wikipedia and they'll Google you. Even if you have a fully dedicated press section on your website, they often don't go there. But I will tell you, they also go to LinkedIn and so LinkedIn can be a very powerful new platform for businesses, but you constantly have to pull. I'm going to give another analogy back to that quilt we were talking about is the thread you have to pull the threads. I think the quilt has a loose thread and you start pulling on the thread and you know, you got to make sure you pull it all the way through to get to the other side. Storytelling is a lot like that. Sometimes you're the same thread and sometimes you have several threads. And so what thread do you pull now? Is that the I need partner thread? I need a funding thread. I need to sell product thread, I need to rival my competition thread. And that's where the discovery process becomes really important is like what do you want it to do for you? How can I help you bring your story to market to help you meet your business? End goal versus we're going to issue a press release. It's going to be great. We're going to send this picture up. You know, over, over this, over the to the satellites around the world. And everybody's going to write about it. I don't have any successful press release that didn't require me to be in front of it for a minimum of 2 to 3 weeks. I say minimum, because I have actually have launched companies in ten days, which I don't recommend, and be able to I did I launched Damon Butter Circles in ten days and CES 2020. That's during the holiday season and said, we hear you're really good at what you do. What do you do? Like holiday season? I'm in. And I was immediately like, excuse me, family. But it really is. It does require some discipline, right? In terms of being getting out of your comfort zone. Sure. But once you go through the process and going through all those post-its and you see the power of the powerful opportunities that you have. And you go, oh, it's more than a pair of pliers, right? It's actually some pliers that actually allow me to do something amazing. What's that amazing thing? What's the impact that I can make? And then you adjust that for wherever you need to apply it. Once you have that pace, that's it. So is it a sustainability story? Is it a, conscious, driven company story? Is it you know, I'm I actually have numerical data, empirical numerical data that I can say, you know, 300, you know, times faster, cleaner, better. Or is it just. Oh, it's a really lovely tractor. I launched an electric tractor company. Somebody saw that one, and it was actually going to look endearing for me because I got my my master's thesis in the democratization of the farmworkers union industries. I didn't know what to write on. And my professor proudly said, when you're not writing and you're not at school, what do you do? And I said, well, I like to go to farm country, go down as Salinas Valley, and I like to go down there and I like to go buy fruit and like, what's the story? And I said, well, you know, it's more than a story. I have empathy for the farmworkers. And why do I have empathy for the farmworkers? Well, because there's children that actually are still working in the fields with their parents. And why do I have empathy about that? Well, because I like reading books and kids that are, you know, 8 to 12 years of age working in the fields aren't necessarily reading books. Right. And so I really that was that became my narrative. And the story that I went to go search, it wasn't an obvious story, it was a story that I was talking about. But for me, that's the genesis of what makes a good story. We all have our own life journey, and I just came up with this a couple weeks ago and talking to a 16 year old, and I was like, okay, how do I actually explain the book of life, which is, you know, it's a big book. So we all have our own journey. We all choose to do certain things along the way. We all learn. And I, you know, I've certainly tried to teach my children, you know, given the tools to thrive so they can be successful and they're going to make mistakes. But the the journey has chapters, and there's a reason why there's people retire versus people that say, next chapter. I want to like be the next chapter and turning chapters because retire means I'm just I'm probably not going to do anything. You know, I'm just going to go you know, organize my, my toolkit and my pliers and stuff. This, this next chapter is I'm going to build something and I'm going to need these pliers to do it with. And I think that's a little bit, you know, like storytelling is that it can just do the obvious and say, well, I'm expected to do this, but you could do the other obvious, which is nobody expected this story. And now watch me. I love that to me that that is the it's pulling out that piece and really spending the time to go deep enough on it to say, okay, look, what is this special piece to that? I absolutely love it. To me, I always like to end on a high note. And boy, I think that one is a great one to end on. That being said, where can people find you? Everywhere? No. And the best place to find me is, LinkedIn, Donna Laughlin. And it's low, ugly. And, my business website is LMG, PR, which stands for leadership, momentum and growth because that's what I like to help companies do. And, obviously here on this podcast. Love it. I really appreciate the time today. I thank you very much. And, we're going to have to do this again soon. Yeah, it's a lot of fun. And we got to get more tools of the toolbox. Exactly. Thanks, Donna. I picked up a couple of really big lessons today. Before I get into those, one thing I want to cover. Do me a favor. Leave us a review. That would help us immensely. Make sure you subscribe. Make sure you follow. If you've got a question. By all means, I would love to hear it in the comments. We want to talk about the things you want to hear about, so put that in the comments. We'd love to hear about it. The thing that I get from this is that so many of us, we forget our story and we forget the why we're doing this. We want to go straight to the features, advantages and benefits. Just no. Tell me why. What is going to be the end result of this? Where we want to talk about the pretty funny things. I go back to some of the things that I used to talk about with the semi trucks. I would talk about, like how the mirrors are really solid mounted. That's a feature. And it's it's a good feature that those trucks had. But why does it matter? It mattered because you weren't going to be replacing the mirrors. If someone touched something with them, it mattered because it showed that the truck had a high build quality. It mattered. Meaning it's going to keep your truck out of the shop, out on the roads, making you money. I didn't usually cover that. I would typically just talk about how strong the mirror was. So yeah, a lot of the stuff Donna talked about today I'm guilty of, and it's one of those things that I'm going to make sure that I work with moving forward, to make sure that I am telling people, hey, this this is what this means to you. This is going to be the end result to you. It's a big thing. And, I it's it's another conversation. I am really, really glad that I have I love to have a conversation with you. So like I said, put something in the comments. Reach out by all means. Would love to hear from you. As always, take care of yourself. You can take care of someone else too. I will see you soon. Oh oh, hey, everybody go!

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Josh Troche

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