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How Gary Stocker Uses Data Storytelling on His Podcast to Expose the Higher Education Crisis

• Josh Troche - Pedal Stomper Productions • Season 3 • Episode 4

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What if your college shut down halfway through your degree? You’ve invested time, money, and your future, only to face locked doors and unanswered questions. For thousands of students, this isn’t a hypothetical. It’s already happening. And it’s a warning sign of a deeper higher education crisis.

In this episode, Gary Stocker, creator of This Week in College Viability, joins us to share how he’s using data storytelling through podcasting to shine a light on the financial health of U.S. colleges. From non-profit colleges quietly draining endowments to the widespread use of tuition discounts masking real tuition costs, Gary breaks down what most boards of trustees and families aren’t seeing.

But this isn’t just about exposing problems, it’s about how a podcast can drive real awareness and change. Gary shares his podcast marketing strategy, how he built an engaged audience by owning a niche, and why he chose a commentary-driven format that delivers weekly insights for higher ed leadership, adjunct professors, and student resources advocates.

We also dig into:

  • How the looming enrollment cliff is accelerating closures
  • What educational reform should really look like
  • Why consistent data analysis beats vague mission statements every time

Whether you're a marketer looking to build an authority-driven podcast, a parent weighing college options, or someone tracking trends in the education industry, this episode delivers value you can’t afford to ignore.

If you're looking to talk podcasting and get more information on how to make your podcast shine, our 30-minute "no pitch" podcast consultation is right for you!  Click the link to sign up for a time. 
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Would you think that starting a podcast that would be going after like college institutions and kind of pissing them off would be a great idea? Our next guest. That's exactly, exactly what he has done. And he's done it in an amazing way. That's helpful to so many people. Stay tuned. Gary, thanks for coming on the day. So your podcast is this Week in College viability, which to me, that's kind of a it's a weird topic that not many people think about. Does that seem. That it's interesting. But you noticed something. I mean, you've got experience in higher education. You're an adjunct professor or chief of staff. What was the tipping point that made you say, you know what, I'm going to do a podcast and what the hell is the podcast about? Yeah. Great question. Josh, thanks for taking some time to to chat with me today. Yeah. The tipping point really was, you know, I'll give you the Reader's Digest version. I'm a medical laboratory scientist by training. You know, I save lives and cure diseases over the years. And I got my doctorate about 15 years ago. Subsequently, was asked to be the chief of staff to a small college president. Got out to that small college in central Missouri and found out that they were effectively using the endowment to keep the lights on, using the endowment to make payroll, which this was ten years ago or something like that, and got back to Saint Louis a couple years later and said, hey, here's an opportunity. Well, as you mentioned, not very many people are talking about the financial health of colleges. And so I saw that as a way to promote what ultimately became APS. And I have created a series of data apps that effectively show for both private and public colleges throughout the United States, which colleges are financially healthy, which colleges are less than less than financially healthy? And even this year, I added an app that will actually compare the number of majors graduating in a given major for, for almost 3000 public and private colleges is all about the data. But the podcast was a means for me to get out and say, hey, here's my niche. And I, I do these interviews all the time, and I poke lovingly and properly. I poke the higher education bear because, Josh, it has long needed poked and and as, as far as I'm concerned, I'm the one doing it on a consistent basis. It's funny you say that because I, in listening that I was listening to the last episode that you recorded and or the last one that you released, at least, and it was interesting. The the woman on there mentioned, she goes, a lot of colleges are like, well, we're nonprofits. And someone gave me a saying a while ago that I thought was just pure genius. He says nonprofit is a tax status, not a goal. So what what made you like this? I'd like to make a podcast out of this, rather than just being like, oh, put this on a website, I'll put it on a blog, I'll put it in the apps and hope something happens from there. I have a terrible, terrible disease and that diseases I enjoy standing in front of people and in this case, sitting in front of people and talking about stuff. It is a genetic issue. I think there is no cure for it. There's reason to think I have that disease has passed through my family. And so I that was something I enjoy doing. Many years ago I did the Toastmasters thing, so I developed some skills associated with that, and it just matched what I wanted to do. And in the three plus years I've been doing this, it's clearly been the right thing to do. Yes, it it it most definitely has. That's it's funny that that genetic issue that you have I believe I have that also for some. There's no cure, no pharmaceutical to fix it. Just yeah. No I don't other than like an ad of an ad that's only a temporary fix because it just knocks you out for long enough to shut you up. How did you connect, like, and grow the the. Because you have you've got business to business where you're talking to college leaders about stuff, and then you've also got like B2C, which is like students and families. How do you connect all of that? So to say, and how do you, do you use different approaches for those? Well, we're talking about this week in college viability. And my focus is on college Fox that is CEOs and board members and provosts and faculty and media and higher education experts. And I would do air quotes, but I'm not going to do that. And that's it. And the essence there's some fictional ones out there. Our essence of that has been to be persistent and to be patient. There is not a Monday that goes by, including today, where I don't release that podcast and I poke that bear, but in the same breath, I poke that bear with with something called the College Viability Manifesto. And don't get me wrong, for your listeners, college is fabulous. It is fabulous. I am first generation. I can't begin to tell you the value has provided me, my family, my offspring. It is fabulous. But it's not fabulous for everybody. And colleges continue to focus on enrollment and and I have yet to for a second. I've yet to see at the commencement ceremony for any average college, pick a college where they have proudly announced during the commencement ceremony, we successfully graduated 37% of the students who started with us four years ago, and they focus on the enrollment, you know, this week, in the last couple weeks, next couple weeks, I get Google Alerts for enrollment announcements. And every college that's having any semblance of positive enrollment is saying that now many of them are spending it so much that I get dizzy trying to read their announcements. But the interesting part of that, Josh, is how many colleges are not posting enrollment increase announcements. And it's kind of a no news is bad news kind of scenario. Yeah, the part of that, the other part of that is I've got another podcast, two of the things I do, and the first is, the College Financial Health Show. It's a YouTube show I do every Tuesday morning with somebody else. And we actually look at two colleges a week, and we do a thorough analysis of the financial, health and even viability. And that's been ridiculously successful. And the other one I started last year is beyond beyond the college brochure that you can imagine with that is colleges, whether they're electronic or for color, they've got these brochures and they're not always telling you what's actually going on. And I've used that podcast it to work more on the students and families. Matter of fact, the first version that I did last year was with a college student who asked, who asked me questions about the financial health of colleges and I answered them. And so I'm trying to address both ends of the market is really what I'm trying to do with a series of different media outlets that I use. How do you approach those differently? I guess I would say like the, the because the one is very much the it's about the college. The other one's more about like helping the students. Is there a different mindset when you look at those? I mean, they're you're obviously sharing a lot of information between the two. Well, actually, the higher end, the college leaders, board members as easy the Google alerts I use give me more content than I can ever use in a 30 minute broadcast, 30 minute podcast each week. So every day I get those, they pop up on my email and I keep the ones I like. And each weekend I prepare for the podcast and do it on Mondays. The one for students and families is kind of the same. Questions over and over. Matter of fact, I'm challenged with finding new content for students and families because as you and I sit here on Happy Labor Day 2025, this many, very small number of students and their families actually realize that the college, colleges or college they're considering is probably having some semblance of financial distress. That's true. And think back to your college days. Think back to my college days long time ago, we didn't think about the financial health of a college. We talked about the majors and the cost and the location, the amenities and the sports. That's still the case. And toward that end, starting earlier this year, our focus has been on creating products for students and their families to say, hey, hey, be careful. The first item on your college checklist should be, is this college financially healthy or not? What brings that on? Because is there a like is there a crisis among colleges? Where are they disappearing? Are they as you said, I know a lot of them are dipping into their endowments, as you said. Is there are there balance sheets? A lot of read? Well, yeah. I mean, the two basic components. And I'm going to tease you again for a second. You and I and our peers did not make enough babies about 18 years ago. So try as we might guilty. Try as we might, practice as we might. There are not enough 18 year olds. And that's just hitting this calendar year. This admissions year and the next decade or so. That's it's called many call it the enrollment cliff. It's more of an enrollment slope. It doesn't drop off like a cliff. It's kind of a downhill slope. And the second is colleges want your tuition dollars. They'll do almost anything to get some amount of tuition dollars for you. And since we have a scenario where there are way, way, way too many colleges and not nearly enough students willing to attend those colleges, colleges are discounting their tuition now. They call it the Josh scholarship. They call it merit aid. They call it the presidential scholarship, but they're just discounts. So here's the best example a college with a $40,000 list price is probably netting something less than 20,000 because they are discounting that tuition to say, hey, come to my college. And here's here's kind of the interesting part. I've had college presidents tell me that their families prefer a high price, high discount model, and you're not going to fall out of your chair when I share. Why? Because now Mommy and Daddy can say, junior got a $20,000 merit aid or $20,000 scholarship to go to this university, and that's fine. You're welcome to do that. But at the end of the day, those colleges need more tuition revenue than they're collecting to meet payroll, to keep the lights on and those kind of things. So it is it there's many of them that have this model that is they're selling it for slightly less than what they're paying to produce it. Probably. Yeah, it probably. And the essence of it is, you know, colleges say we are unique. If you are listening, the audio portion, you're seeing my shaking here, shaking my head negatively addressing college. This college don't get a concussion. So the colleges for the most part Josh are not unique. They are a commodity. Yes, the trees are different. The buildings are different, the majors are different. The cost is different. But at the end of the day, what is that product? It is a piece of paper that says what you and I stuck around. Applicant were consistent and persistent enough to get something close to 120 credits, a reasonably successful manner, and we get a piece of paper that says, we've done that. That is a commodity in almost all cases. Sure, that makes 100% sense. So it needs to be treated as such. And in many ways that I it's it's interesting as we talk about this, the business of, of college and universities or something that people do not think about, but they are very much they have to be businesses. Speaking of businesses, you've built a business around, like we've talked about the financial viability of colleges. How has the podcast helped your business in terms of moving forward, in terms of supporting the apps, in terms of those types of things? I on purpose, don't generate any revenue for my podcast. Sure. I use it to establish expertise, to establish perspective, to establish a niche, a niche. And I can't tell you, Josh, how many folks that I've talked to in a variety of settings. I said, Gary, I think you're the only one doing this. Number one. And number two, keep doing it. So really, I do the podcast to establish a reputation, to establish an expertise. And I've been successful in that. And the number of support that and I'm, I have no intention of doing anything other than keeping that podcast going until my voice no longer works. I love that that to me is is awesome. And it's the the expertise piece is something that we talk about with people all the time because it does help you establish it. And the thing that so many people don't realize is that they have their niche. They they fit in someplace. And if you do this, if you do something even part time, you're an expert. Just at your at least a professional by definition, if you receive a couple of dollars for your professional, so it 100% makes sense. In this, I want to ask about some lessons that you've learned in doing the podcast itself, because in many times, in many cases, you are delivering news about institutions that, let's say is unflattering. It may be, a lot of these institutions kind of use a funhouse mirror to look tall and skinny when they may not be tall and skinny necessarily. What is the biggest misconception you've had about creating a podcast and the effects it would have? I don't know that I would characterize a misperception. The mechanics, I think, have been key. And I noticed on your site that you talk about one of the challenges about how few of a small percentage of podcasts are successful because the amount of content. Well, as I shared with you a minute ago, that's not my issue. And the biggest factor has been the biggest factor has been setting up those Google alerts. Sure. And then those Google alerts give me constant content, kind of constant content. And now I'm at the point where am I again? I'm actually pondering about doing the show more than once a week because I now I have folks dropping me notes that don't show up in my Google alerts because I got that notoriety either positive or negative, and now I have folks saying, hey, take a look at this college or here. They send me a clip for some college announcement. And so that the key has been, yeah, it takes me a few hours to create the content. It takes me a few minutes each day to look at those Google alerts and say, yes, no, yes, no no no no no no. Yes. But the key has been those Googlers provide me content for this week and even on on the College Financial Health Show. When Matt Hendricks and I started this out a little over a year ago, we picked our first set of colleges and we started saying, hey, if you have a college you want us to review, drop us a note. Josh, I can't tell you the last time I've had to go to my database to bring up a college. We are now well into October, I think, with colleges on our future shows list, because folks drop us a note saying, hey, for whatever reason, take a look at this college and some are doing really, really. Well about sure. 1 in 7, one and eight, one and nine are doing really, really well. Some are hanging in there and some Matt and I look at the numbers and have to ask ourselves, how did I keep the doors open? How are they keeping the doors open? Their finances are so miserable they have no cash or enrollments down there. Expenses are up. They're not keeping up with the safety requirements for for infrastructure and preventive maintenance. And those kind of things. It's fascinating that and this I think I'm in some regards, Josh I'm lucky I picked a niche that was timely. So a little serendipity is involved. Right time right place. But the biggest tip I would give is find a way to have content delivered on a regular basis. So you can choose what to talk about or what not to talk about. What what has been the most surprised? I'm sure you like, you're obviously getting feedback on stuff. What has been the most surprising bit of feedback that you received that when you started this, you thought, I mean, this is the thing where you're like, where did that come from? And yes. Well, I'm not going to answer your question, actually, sir, I'm going to answer the reverse of that. The most fascinating thing I. Love. It is how rare is how rarely colleges will reach out and say, you're wrong because it is such a news based. It's news and commentary. Yes, I share my opinions. Absolutely. And I have a premise, but it's all based on data. And again, if I were a college and I heard stalker say my enrollment announcement is garbage because they're spinning it and whatever ways they spin it, I'm not going to give me him any response because that just reinforces the value that he's bringing. So the most obvious part has been how much response I don't get from colleges, and in part because there's no room for them to say, hey, you're wrong because I there was one I had a data piece on and somebody reached out. So my mistake, I fix it. But they're just they're not willing to say, hey, let's give this stalker guy some credit because he's wrong. Because I'm not. So the loudest feedback you're getting is from crickets. Yeah. And and like I said, there are many folks who say, Gary, keep it up. And that's fine, I appreciate that. But most fascinating. And I hope someday that somebody takes the bait and says, you know, Gary Stalker so wrong. Because that would be a fascinating conversation to have. And I regularly invite folks to join us. I do my own interviews on occasion as well, but I regularly invite colleges to join us and talk about crickets. That's that's the response on that. Crickets from colleges that invite you to join either me on my on my podcast or the College Financial Health Show with Matt Hendricks. So what what do you see for the future of any of the podcasts that you have? I mean, is is there a direction that we're going, or are we just trucking ahead in the same direction? Is there corners up ahead? Yeah, really good question. And again, I go back to that persistence and patience because this is an industry. This is an industry that is in decline. This is an industry where the classic economics are in place. Too many, too many products and not enough people willing to buy those products in this case of college major. And so I'm just going to be persistent because I think I'm right. If I'm wrong and there's a small chance that I'm wrong, really smart. You're wrong. So be it. So be it. I provided a service I, me, but I give I give folks a chance to think about their industry in a different context. And just started a new product for students and families and let it give them a free access to the financial health of colleges. So that market's probably going to grow in the coming weeks and months, because now we have access to the product that moms and dads can get has. It's easy to understand, easy to follow, easy to compare. But it's just a function of being persistent. Because if this industry crashes and there's a find, crash is tough. I am in a position to have said, hey, lovingly, I told you so. Sure, sure, it's one of those things where you to me, I almost see it as like you're trying to call. Call the tell everyone that, hey, there's a there's a small fire here that we should probably look at before this turns into a raging inferno. Good point. That's the ad that it's tough to be the fire alarm. Man, it's very tough to be the fire alarm. Through your podcast journey here, the question that I always like to ask people, if you could give just one piece of advice to a business owner, a marketer, a CEO, anyone that's on the fence about starting a podcast or someone that's having like a at a tipping point in their podcast. What is the one piece of advice that you're going to, that you're going to give from your podcasting journey? Be very, very, very careful with the interview model. I like that because in the interview model, if you're bringing garbage to your microphone, you're going to get a garbage product. And in higher education, I don't listen to a lot of podcasts, but I do listen to some, and they're bringing on folks who it's kind of a one off expertise. Yep. And so be very careful of the interview model. And on the other hand, I'll reverse the question is think about that news and commentary model. Rely on only yourself. Research whatever industry, whatever expertise, whatever specialty that you have is that same Google Alerts model. Become the expert. Don't rely on folks whose expertise may be problematic at best, awful at worst. And just ponder that choice between the interview model, which I have to rely on, is to, you know, I had to schedule time, right? And that's no fun. And that and that news and commentary model where I recorded every any damn time I want, even though I have a schedule and I don't rely on, you know, scheduling and scheduling somebody for the interview and them being boring or off topic or not available or canceling or any of that kind of stuff that. That that is great advice. And it's one of the reasons why I typically try and make sure that we're interviewing podcasters, because at least at that point, I can go out and watch them and see how they are. And there's many where I'm like, nope, this person's not going to be a fit. They I mean, because we've all seen the interview where someone shows up and they have all the charisma of this water bottle that I'm holding up right here where you're like, oh gosh, I look, I really I mean, Gary, I really appreciate the time today. This has been a lot of fun. Where can people find you? Where would you like them to find you? Well, two places I have websites at College viability.com. Which is is a big picture. Focus has got where I have the apps that I sell. That's where I make money. And then we just started in the last months, my college viability, the word my in front of college viability. And that's the focus on students families. That's where you get access to the free reports for either students and families, faculty members. We just added over the weekend. This weekend, alumni can go and see how their college are doing, and that's where you can get to to find that first information to say, hey, is Gary Soccer University going to make it? Or is Josh College a financially healthier model that really has to be in this day and age in most colleges, not in the Ivy is not the power force, but for most colleges you have to look at the financial health and not just whether they're going to live or die. But even, you know, this whole summer I spent many, you know, my podcast leads off with layoffs, cutbacks and closures because there's layoffs, cutbacks and closures. Every week is a layoff and cut back because if they're laying off faculty, if they're cutting back on majors, that's almost just as bad as closing in many cases. And that's why looking at the financial health first is a must. I absolutely love that, Gary. Thank you for the time we are going to have to do this again. We actually met at the Higher Ed Pod con. That announced it's the. By the time this podcast comes out, the location of that will be announced. But, I'm sure we're going to end up, sitting down and chatting at that again, because next year, I think it's going to be two days, which is going to be a lot of fun. So, Gary, thanks again. I really appreciate it. And, I will be back with the summary right after this. Josh, a pleasure. Thanks. After Gary and I talked, I really started to think about things here and like, what? What the what the key is for Gary. First off, Gary's got a certain amount of charisma that is just phenomenal. I mean, he shows up, he shows up, he shows up authentically. He's honest about it. One of the things that I love the most, though, is that he saw this like big gap, a huge gap, frankly, in what was being reported and what was being talked about for, I mean, colleges and their financial standings, because look, I mean, he talked about the stats in there. There's fewer kids out there that more colleges are fighting for. And I remember ten, 15 years ago, there was this huge boom of colleges that were starting up. And now that some of that's being commoditized, it's it's a tough row to hoe. And you really to me, if I'm looking to send my kid off to college or if I'm looking to go to a college, I want to make sure that that institution is going to be around for more than the first year that I'm there. And I've actually seen it firsthand with some local schools that have had some deep, deep financial issues. To me, the fact that he found that opportunity and was looking for that opportunity and really honed in on that niche, I mean, that's been spectacular because he's found a great audience with that. The other thing with that is he's got his apps and his apps are where he makes the money. But he really does this once again in service of his audience. I mean, this is all about giving people information. So they can make educated decisions. That's huge. I mean, once again, be in service of your audience. When he talked about the interview format, like I said, it's I, I've worked with some people, frankly, that just weren't good on camera or they weren't even good sitting across the table from me here in the studio. It's one of the things that you definitely, definitely need to be aware of when you're doing a podcast. If you're going to do an interview format, you've got to make sure that you've got the right people sitting across the table from you. I do like his suggestion about doing the news podcast. It is a great way to do it. We did that recently and we I thoroughly enjoyed it, but I wanted to make sure that we we expanded our reach with those other things. Now, I think to me, the key is that he has such just this awesome niche in what he's doing that he's really able to grow quickly from there. He's very much as far as I'm able to find the only game in town when it comes to that, which to me is absolutely awesome that he really he didn't hesitate, he saw the opportunity and just went out and capitalized on it. That's something that you should probably look at in your own podcast too. What's the opportunity? What are you thinking about? Just go do the thing instead of just sitting there thinking about it. With all that, the only thing that I'd like you to do. Let us know who you'd like to hear from. Let us know what types of topics you would like for us to cover. Once again, we are here in service of you. We can do that a little bit better if you're willing to give us a review, willing to subscribe, and willing to follow. Those all help immensely in showing us to other podcasters so we can help everyone that we possibly can. You know, our core value is success is a shared thing. We want to share this with everyone. We want to help as many people as we possibly can. Speaking of help it, do me a favor. Take care of yourself. You can take care of someone else too. I will see you very, very soon.

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Josh Troche

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