Podcasting Momentum - The Marketing Flywheel for your Businesss

How a Trial Lawyer Uses Podcasting for Brand Building and Education

• Josh Troche - Pedal Stomper Productions • Season 3 • Episode 13

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What happens when a high-stakes trial lawyer leverages law firm podcast production to transform their practice? You get gripping stories, deep reflections, and a masterclass in storytelling for brand building with podcasting. In this episode, Josh sits down with Andy Goldwasser, a seasoned litigator and the host of Trial War Stories, to unpack how creating a podcast has not only enhanced his legal career but also fueled personal growth and professional branding.

Andy opens up about why he began his podcast journey and how it shifted from marketing strategies to mentorship. We also talk about the unique experience of having his father, also a lawyer, as his second guest. Instead of lead generation, Andy has found that the compelling episodes that resonate with those that not only want the stories, but also with those that want to learn how to be better lawyers in the process.

This episode is essential listening for lawyers, business owners, or any professional interested in using remote video podcast production to build a powerful content asset. Discover how curiosity and attentive listening can make your podcast stand out, turning your expertise into impactful stories that drive connection and growth.

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Josh Troche: When you're doing a podcast, a lot of it is, we want to ask those better questions. Well, who better to ask about asking better questions than someone who literally talks to people about questions, deals with multiple millions of dollars of questions, and even like justice hangs in the balance. Not only that, but has an amazing, amazing podcast to listen to. This week's guest, well, you're just going to need to stay tuned.

Andy, thank you for coming in. I greatly appreciate this. Um, like you just got done recording one. Um, every single time that you've been in the studio, these have been some really great stories that you have pried out of people. Um, and maybe "pry" is the wrong word, because a lot of them are willing to tell the stories, and I'll get into some of the questions about it later.

Being a lawyer, you have a podcast. Um, I've noticed, it seems like the, the time in the studio is not billable time. Why did you start a podcast?

Andy Goldwasser: Josh, that is such a great question, because I'm not entirely sure. I know why. Um, here's what I would say. I really enjoy the topic that I talk about on my podcast, which is trial war stories, and I love talking about trials. And I, I think I really started it um, for a way to better brand and market myself, even though I was talking to other lawyers about their experience and that was the essence of it.

What it has, what it has turned into for me has nothing to do with branding, has nothing to do with marketing, it is turned into real conversations where I'm learning so much. I tell people this all the time. I think I've learned more from interviewing other trial lawyers about the craft of trying cases through the podcast than I have over 25-plus years of practicing law. It has been a great teaching tool for me, and so I just love, love doing it.

I know you're here to ask me questions, but I have to comment on something, Josh, before you do. You've, you've helped me with every one of my episodes with the exception of one. I am so excited to do this, because I feel like I'm finally going to learn how to do it, whereas you just threw my ass in a chair and you said, "Let's go," and I've done the best I can. So, thank you for having me here to to help me through this process.

Josh Troche: No, I, I, I, I've been excited about asking you to do this for a while. Just, I mean, the, the way you approach, just people in general is awesome, and with that, the, the thing that I have found is you've changed your network in a way with this. Um, you've had the kind and I, I want to go back to like one of the conversations you had in the studio. We use the other studio in in this room, was with your father. Yes.

That was not a father-son conversation. Was that, I mean, it was very much, it was lawyer to lawyer. And what I kind of want to dive into with that, did the podcast give you the ability to ask different questions than you would have, not only of your father, but of like other lawyers where like a lunch meeting, we all know how lunch meetings go. You sit down, how's, how's things? "Great. Doing awesome." Um, the intention behind the questions, does it allow you to get there?

Andy Goldwasser: Yes, um, unequivocally, and it's, it's a great opening question for me. When, when I conducted the interview of my father, who is really my mentor, not only in life, but in my professional mentor, I went into it thinking, "This is the perfect guinea pig, right? Who else is going to go on my podcast that I'm just starting? No one's going to go on it, no one knows anything about it, no one I don't even know what I'm doing. I may as well just ask my dad some questions." And to this day, Josh, it is still my favorite one, because it was this organic conversation that was really, frankly, emotional for me. I think it was somewhat emotional for my father, because it allowed us to explore the level of our craft on a professional level in a different way, and it was really, really an exciting and exceptional thing that we did.

Josh Troche: Yeah, it, it was. It was neat to watch, because you could see there was this the the father-son relationship was there, um, but it's like, "Hey, these are questions that I get to ask that we I, I guess I would say, it's like, it's on the record, so we both have to be very professional about this." Is it, it had a different connotation to it.

Andy Goldwasser: It, it, it really was. I mean, we've obviously had a lot of conversations over the years about the practice of law and my brother is also an attorney, so our Thanksgiving conversations are always fascinating and always interesting, but this forum where it wasn't my dad asking me questions or my brother questions about the trajectory of our careers, it was us going back in time and talking about his his business and the way he approached the practice of law and that to me was really an exciting process.

Josh Troche: Yeah, it seemed like it was no longer Dad telling you, "This is what, what I did." Um, it's like, "Hey, here's my story," is the way it came across.

Andy Goldwasser: It was, thank you. It was great. I really enjoyed it.

Josh Troche: That speak, so, when you're doing some of the prep for this, I mean, just in what I know about what you do, how you guys handle things, it is, it's the same as like any other podcast thing. It is preparation, preparation, um, you also add in some preparation, and you look at a few more things to make sure you're prepared. Um, seems like about a good summary of things.

Andy Goldwasser: It, it is. It, you know, it's interesting though, because, Josh, my preparation for a podcast is so much different than my preparation for what I actually do for a business, and that's ask people questions.

Josh Troche: I hope so.

Andy Goldwasser: And what I have done, which for the podcasting, and I don't know if this, maybe you could probably help me with this. I don't know if it's a good approach or not, it certainly works for me is, I do a pre-interview of all my guests. Um, when I pre-interview them, I tell them, "I don't want to hear a lot about what we're going to talk about," because I'm afraid that if we do that, it's not going to be this organic conversation. And, um, so my process is is less about preparation for the podcast, more about just getting a big picture overview. But you are correct, it's my my ability to ask good questions, which didn't start out that way. It took a long, long time to get there, and uh I I I think it certainly helps when I interview, interview people.

Josh Troche: Sure. And there's, there, I mean, we talk with people all the time, there's multiple ways to do it. I mean, I know some people that just go in completely stone-cold and they're like, and unfortunately, you can usually tell. Yeah. Um, it, it, it makes a difference. There's, you've talked about how there's been the shift kind of from a little bit of a marketing aspect to like, "Oh my god, this is a learning tool for me." Uh, when was there a day where it just whacked you upside the head where this is different than what you completely expected?

Andy Goldwasser: Episode two, which was my father. Yeah. Um, I walked away from that saying, "Boy, I learned a lot." Then I went to episode three, learned a lot. Then I don't remember where it was slotted, but, um, I had a great guest, uh, Nick came on, and he's the president of the Cleveland Metropolitan Bar Association, Nick Tochelo, and he talked to me about a case and his unique approach to trying cases, and I, and I walked away from that saying, "Wow, I never thought about doing things that way. That's really interesting."

And then I went to John Camillis, who is an incredible trial lawyer and also a trial consultant, and we did a deep, technical masterclass discussion on trial work, and it affirmed for me that I was doing a lot of things right, and it also affirmed for me that in my business you can never stop learning, and I learned so much from these great lawyers, and I got to tell you, I'm now trying to apply it in my everyday practice. I really am. I I and then what we did, Josh, it became so clear to me that this was a great learning tool that we actually partnered with the Cleveland Metropolitan Bar Association, because we said, "This is a benefit for lawyers."

If lawyers actually listen to this, which which started out as, "Boy, I want to market myself," now is, "I really just want to help educate younger lawyers," and the CMBA, the Cleveland Metropolitan Bar Association, agreed and they said, "This is a great learning tool." So we put it out there and, um, I I don't know how many followers we have, probably not too many, because it's still relatively new, but but that's been the trajectory and and the fun that we're having doing the podcast. And again, I can't thank you enough, because you have guided me through this process from day one and you're really, really good at what you do.

Josh Troche: Thank you. Thank you. You don't want me to be a lawyer though, trust me. We, we don't want to trade. We don't want to trade shoes.

Andy Goldwasser: No, but you're good at, you're good at asking questions. You're incredible at framing themes. I mean, when we get done, for the listeners who don't know, I'm probably getting off track and I'm sorry. Sorry for doing that. But you know, when we, when we do, when I do the podcast, I like to wait and to do what we call the hook until after, because I I don't know what's going to develop during the course of the podcast itself. And inevitably, I screw up the hook, because I don't know what the hell I'm doing. And you are so good at framing the hook, and what that tells me, Josh, is you would be a great lawyer, because you're able to theme something, you're able to distill 45 minute to an hour discussion and distill it to a theme, and and I use it what you give me almost every single time.

Josh Troche: And we, we have fun with it, too. And that's, that's the other piece. It's that's the, uh, we do, because the, to me, the information that you guys get out truly is awesome. I'm not a lawyer. I have no legal background whatsoever. Um, I may have had a few run-ins with local law enforcement a couple of times, but beyond that, I have no legal background. But these are interesting, I mean, the podcast is really, really interesting, because you bring on great people, um, charismatic people, people that know how to speak, and I mean, that's a big part of it. The second piece of it is, though, is that I kind of want to get into is the questioning. Um, this you it's funny, because you, I don't want to say take off your lawyer hat, because, I mean, granted, we have bright lights here, but it's not, "Where were you on the night of whatever?" But in the same sense, you have the these questions where you're really diving in and asking for the details that a lot of times like I'm sitting back there and I'm not even thinking of, and you're like, "Oh, hey, this is an important piece." Um, what do you what are some of the things that you're thinking about that cause you to ask those next questions that cause you to go deeper as uh as people are talking?

Andy Goldwasser: I think it starts for me with listening. Um, I think any good questioner listens to the person that they're talking to. Um, and so when I'm in this setting, it actually helps me focus on what's being discussed, and and so that's number one, is being a good listener. Number two, is I really have an interest in the subject. Right? I mean, I really am curious, and and I want to know. So that helps me frame my questions. Frankly, it's a lot easier to frame questions here than in a sterile setting where I'm advocating on behalf of somebody else. Well, here, I'm almost advocating on behalf of my myself, not somebody else, because I'm so curious, I want to know the answer to my question, which is why I asked the question. It's a great feeling.

Josh Troche: Oh, sure. I, I, I can your enthusiasm for it is awesome, because and I can tell it's that we've talked with a lot of podcasters about it, and the best podcasters have the genuine curiosity. Um, I've mentioned it with like, I I don't think Joe Rogan is one of the great minds of the world. I do think he is just a genuinely curious guy that has on interesting people. Yes. And that is the formula for that. Um, in a lot of this, you've mentioned, too, you kind of enjoy the conversation without interruption. Um, you're allowed to let people run. Um, I remember there was a podcast where the, uh, you even mentioned like there was a judge that would like let someone object like every five seconds, you couldn't get into the flow of things, and it was just like, "What am I going to do?" You've had interesting guests, you've had one or two that will go on a little bit. How do you look at that sometimes, because I don't ever see you get uncomfortable with that. You let them go.

Andy Goldwasser: I, I think that's been my biggest struggle as to not on for podcasting. Sure. Is I don't know when to stop the guest. Um, but I I think what I just try to do is is continue to make it conversational. Sure. And I don't know if it works or doesn't work, but I I just don't know, Josh. I don't know when the right time to cut off a guest is, it just never feels right to me, but I do when the guest is getting so off track, I do try to bring them back. The way I do it, again, probably the wrong way, and you could help me with this is, I try to bring up one of my own personal experiences to bring back and frame the next question.

Josh Troche: That's interesting. So, you bring that, and as soon as you said that, I'm like, "Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, you drag that back to, 'Okay, I've been here. I've been at least parallel. How does that frame up with the question that we were initially going at?'"

Andy Goldwasser: Absolutely. I mean, that's one of the good things about the podcast that I do is I'm not talking about subjects that I don't know anything about. And that's what Joe makes Joe Rogan in my mind so incredible is that he could talk about any subject and make it interesting and he's intellectually curious. I'm not intellectually curious about a lot of things. I am intellectually curious about trial work. And so for, for me, sticking with that subject creates this comfort zone that that I've really attached myself to and does make the conversation flow.

Josh Troche: So, the the one thing that I'm curious about is in many cases, you deal in some very high-stakes areas. Um, you also do a lot of advocacy, which I think is amazing. Um, do you feel like stepping in here, there's bright lights, there's microphones here, there's a few of us typically sitting on the other side of that television. Do you feel any pressure in here at all?

Andy Goldwasser: The only pressure that I feel in here was when I interviewed my dad. Yeah. That was the only time. Other than that, no, I don't feel any pressure here. It's it's really interesting as a trial lawyer, we are such control freaks and that makes us terrible people in a lot of respects. But but but what I have I am not good in social settings. I have terrible social anxiety. I don't like being in bars or restaurants or at parties and talking to a bunch of people. I'm just not good at it and I don't enjoy it.

In this type of setting, it's really we're talking about a topic I love, there's no interruptions, you don't and you could actually listen and and enjoy each other's the conversation. Like, even though this conversation that we're having doesn't really touch on what I do as a lawyer, it's enjoyable to me having this one-on-one conversation because I am truly interested in podcasting, I'm interested in how you do it and what you do it, and so even just the whole setting is just great for I'm getting off track and I know that, but for anybody who is at all enjoys having one-on-one conversations, this is an incredible forum that people should experience. I was completely new to it six months ago and I have enjoyed it immensely.

Josh Troche: I I can tell that the enjoyment level, too, is you've gotten into it, has gone up. The first one or two, you're like, "This is, this is cool." Now you're like, "Yeah, we're in, we're in the studio." Um, and I can also tell by the number of appointments that we have laid out over the next few weeks, you're like, "Oh, yeah, we're coming into the studio more."

Andy Goldwasser: Josh, can I ask you a question? I know this is your podcast and you're supposed to be asking me. Do a lot of people that come onto your podcast fizzle out after one or two, or do some I mean, how does it work? Like, what's the ratio here? What are we talking about?

Josh Troche: 86% of podcasts never make it past episode 15. And as you know, it's because like you guys put work into this. Um, we're going to give a shout-out to Quana sitting back there, who's diligently note taking. I know she helps with some research on some stuff and things of that nature.

Andy Goldwasser: She does.

Josh Troche: It's work. There is a lot of work to go into podcasting, and at least doing it right.

Andy Goldwasser: Yes.

Josh Troche: Um, the way you do it, you you call the people ahead of time, you figure out what case you guys are going to talk about ahead of time. There's work in that.

Andy Goldwasser: 100%, and it does take away from the day-to-day business and even just getting people lined up is a lot of work.

Josh Troche: It's a huge amount of work. So, it is that lift that we we call it, in the in the industry, it's called pod-fade, because people are like, "I want to do a podcast," and they're all excited to get on the microphone and talk and they're like, they're going to wave to both of their fans, one of which is their mother.

Andy Goldwasser: Still my biggest fan.

Josh Troche: And that's awesome. And that's awesome. Is, to me, it's that so many people get into it and they're like, "Oh, this is a lot of work." And that's what causes that fade over time, because there's I I I'm a guest on podcasts all the time, and the ones that put in the work, the ones that are really good shows, I can tell. Um, the ones that are just like, "Hey, show up five minutes before the thing, we'll talk." And I'm like, "Well, okay, this is," and it's as they record a Zoom meeting and then just put that up online with like four words to it, and I'm like, "Well, okay, was this really worth my time?" No. And is it worth their time? They're like, "Well, I get an a networking thing out of it." And that's for you, to do it right, it takes work, and that's why so many people fade out of it.

Andy Goldwasser: That's interesting. Yeah. Thanks for answering it. I know this is your your show, and

Josh Troche: No, by all means, I I mean, a big part of why I do the show is to help educate podcasters. So, whatever questions, by all means, lob them back over.

Andy Goldwasser: You shouldn't have said that, cuz I have I have quite a few more.

Josh Troche: The the something else that I kind of want to cover is you're like, how are you picking some of these cases? And I know in in a lot of cases, these are friends, these are, these are people that you know. And as a lawyer, in order to be an effective lawyer, I think there's a certain amount of charisma that needs to come along with that. If you stood up in front of a jury and had all the personality of this microphone stand, you're probably not going to do well as a lawyer. Um, but nonetheless, like how are you, like what is your thought process in selecting these guests, or is it just, "Screw it, I think there's an interesting case out there somewhere"?

Andy Goldwasser: It's a great question. I start with the guest themselves, and so because I've been a lawyer for 30 years in this community, I have a pretty good sense of who's at the top of their game. Sure. And I try to approach those lawyers who I have just a lot of respect for, and I start there. And then I I get on the phone with them, I ask them if they'd be interested in talking and having being on my podcast. Um, if they say yes, and so far, knock on wood, every one of them has said yes, which has been great. I I give them the concept. I say, "I want to talk about trials. I know you've tried a lot of cases. Let's talk about some of your interesting trials." And we talk about five, six, seven of their interesting cases and then we try to narrow it down and pick one to talk about. So, that's that's the process that I use. So, when we talk about work, I sort of forgot that process. Sure. That is a big part of it, because you are calling them and you're talking for an hour sometimes, just about all these different cases in order to vet and determine which one I believe would be interesting for listeners or is not duplicative of something else that we did, because part of the concept that we've grown into with my podcast is really trying to teach and educate other lawyers. So we don't, even if it's necessarily maybe an interesting case, if it's on a process or a method or a topic that we've already talked about, then we try to steer away from that case.

Josh Troche: So, I mean, you've had all these great trial lawyers on, you've had, I mean, it's it's trial war stories. Um, the the question, and I'm going to have one more after this that's going to be a big one, but the question that I've been dying to ask is I'd like to hear one of your trial war stories, because you're and I know I'm 100% putting you on the spot with this, but um, to me, you get to ask a bunch of other people about this, and we never get to hear yours. And in all the research I've done, um, you're a bit of a rock star in your industry. So, I'd like to hear just and don't give me all the legal stuff, because you're going to see me get confused very quickly. Um, but give me a great story.

Andy Goldwasser: Oh, boy, you did catch me off guard. So, so I'm going to quickly touch on two cases that I think were really highlights for me. So, I had one last year, and it was in the Eastern District of New York. And for those listeners that don't know this, the two trial courts maybe in the country that are the most influential and powerful trial courts in the entire country are the Southern District of New York and the Eastern District of New York. That's where the biggest trials come from. So, here I am, an Ohio kid, born and bred, practicing in Cleveland, Ohio, and I find myself in federal court in the Eastern District of New York, which is akin to going, I'd say it's the AFC Championship game. Right? So the Super Bowl is the Southern District, but it's the AFC Championship game. And it involves a young, a young baton twirler of all things. She is actually a a world champion baton twirler who was a minor at the time, goes on a baton twirling trip to Lima, Peru, through this organization called the United States Twirling Association. There is such a thing as the United States Twirling Association. Sadly, when she's on this trip, she's accosted by the the host in Peru, the Peruvian host, who ends up sexually assaulting her. We can't sue the Peruvian host because all of the contacts with that person occurred in Peru, so there's no jurisdiction anywhere in the United States to go after him legally. So we actually sue the United States Twirling Association and say that the United States Twirling Association was negligent in hiring and supervising this Peruvian host. I mean, that was the essence of the case.

And so we walk into the Eastern District of New York, we start with this federal judge who was the judge for El Chapo. I mean, he was just a badass judge, and we worked up the case, and it was just such an exciting process. We ended up having a change of judges for trial, but when we walk into the Southern or the Eastern District of New York, it's this massive, beautiful courthouse. When you you have to go through really intense security to go in. If you're not a lawyer with actual proof that you're a lawyer, you're not even allowed to bring in a phone or a computer or anything else. So Quana, who tries these cases with me, is my paralegal, but she's not an attorney. We had to actually get a special order for her just to get through security with her equipment to go up to the courthouse. Wow.

We walk into this this courtroom and it is it's just it's it's mammoth. It's freezing cold, it's sterile, and I got to tell you, Josh, I'm nervous. Really, really nervous. I don't practice that much in federal court and I've never been to the Eastern District of New York.

Josh Troche: So just the gravitas behind everything.

Andy Goldwasser: Just the feel of it. And I've talked about this on my podcast. There's something that trial lawyers have all experienced inside of a courtroom, and that is the feel of a courtroom. Sure. It does have a certain feel to it. And this one was overwhelming to the point where it almost takes your breath away unless you're used to being in that setting. Sure. We go into the courtroom. As I mentioned, we have a brand-new judge who was just appointed to the federal bench. And I don't know if I'm supposed to say it, I'm going to say it anyhow. I don't know if she's ever tried a case before ours. So, we get up and we start putting on our case, and suffice it to say, the judge was shutting me down constantly. And as we talked about, one of the benefits of podcasting, it's this uninterrupted conversation, right?

Josh Troche: Right. This was an interrupted conversation.

Andy Goldwasser: This was an interrupted conversation where every single time I would ask a question, I would get objection, please approach. You'd approach the bench, you'd argue about the objection for five minutes, you'd go back to ask the next question, or to ask the question again. And by then, I would forget what the question even was. Right? So there's no flow, there's no rhythm, and just absolutely got got into it with the judge. Um, my co-counsel had to actually pull me back because I thought I was going to go to jail, and it was just. So when you asked about trial war stories, that was a really special experience for me to go through that process. And we got a great result. It just the client was so wonderful, so deserving, the family was so deserving. I mean, Quana was crying for three days. It was, it was just a great, great experience. The second one I, I'll be quick about this one. Was just a wild case that we had against FirstEnergy. I represented a guy who had a bad stomach. He had Crohn's disease. As a result, he had to constantly go to the bathroom. Right? Well, here he is, the assistant head of the HR, but he's constantly going to the bathroom. His co-worker, who's the head of the HR, found that to be disgusting. So he fired him because the guy would go to the bathroom too much, and we brought a disability discrimination case and we're like, "How the hell are we going to convince a jury to give a lot of money to a guy who's a serial shitter?" Right?

Josh Troche: Exactly. It's better than him not going to the bathroom.

Andy Goldwasser: Exactly. That was the case, and it was a two-week two-week trial. This was a fun experience. We ended up getting a $1.8 million verdict for this guy. Wow. It was great and and just had a blast. So those are two quickies for you.

Josh Troche: Those are both interesting and obviously kind of opposite ends of the spectrum of them. They're, I mean, but that's, yeah, and like I said, it's better than him not going to the bathroom. I'd play I'd encourage people, if you need to, leave the studio at any time.

Andy Goldwasser: I love how we ended up in this conversation. I don't know. Now, how do we get out of it, Josh?

Josh Troche: This is the beautiful part, because now we've talked about the past. What do you see for the future of the podcast? I mean, it it evolved quickly. It went from, "Hey, this is marketing, this is, these things for me," to all of a sudden like, "Look, it's still marketing, but it's an educational piece." What, what do you see as some of the next steps? What, what is the next progression?

Andy Goldwasser: What I would like from the podcast is twofold. Ultimately, I would like to make it part of the law school. I would like to somehow partner with the law school because I truly believe that if anyone's interested in trial work or trial advocacy, this is a great tool in an informative, sort of fun way. Yeah. Um, the second thing that I, I would love to see is, we lawyers have to have continuing legal education. We're required to have 24 credit hours every two years. I would love to see if I can get the Supreme Court to provide CLE credit for the podcast to really encourage other lawyers to listen to it because they're getting credit for listening to it. My hope, of course, is that if they listen to it, they'll want to keep coming back and listening to it. Sure. So that's my plan.

Josh Troche: That's amazing. I, to me, it's, it's interesting because those are some big shots, um, but if anyone can do it, you can for sure.

Andy Goldwasser: Thank you.

Josh Troche: I greatly appreciate the time today. I have learned a lot about not only legal, but like how the questions come, where they come from, and everything like that. I really appreciate it. Um, what is where can people find the podcast? I'll let you give the name and all that other stuff.

Andy Goldwasser: So, it's called Trial War Stories. They can find it on any of the streaming services. Good. So it's out there. It's also on YouTube. All you have to do is do a quick search for Trial War Stories, it'll come up. Give it a listen. I think you'll enjoy it.

Josh Troche: Wonderful. Andy, thank you again. I really appreciate it.

Andy Goldwasser: Josh, thank you for all you do. I appreciate it.

Josh Troche: Thanks. As you can tell, I truly enjoy talking with Andy. Andy is a great guy. Um, his firm does some really, really good things. The fact that he looks at advocacy and things like that, I mean, they, they truly are. Plus, just to me, anytime I get to be in a room the same room as an individual like him, obviously very intelligent, knows what he's talking about, it's just an honor, um, to have someone like that. The fact that I get to work with them in the studio all the time as they have built this podcast. And as I've watched this podcast evolve and change, to me, it's, it's kind of unreal. Um, the, the evolution to see it in those first couple of episodes.

He's, he was never awkward, but I think that comes from his background of having to ask difficult questions in difficult situations. Um, to me, that's, that's a big piece of it. The the reason why I think their podcast goes so well, and this is the thing that I think so many people miss in their approach, is he is just so genuinely curious about these stories. You can tell he is such a true fan of what he does. He is so passionate about the legal field and learning everything that he can in order to be better at his job.

And it's not just that he wants to be better at his job, he just wants to be better, whether it was his job or not. I don't think it was it would matter. He just wants to know more. I, to me, he's, he's a fan of what he does. I almost equate it to like he's going to take in any information that he can about it. I enjoy, I mean, those that you follow along for a while, you know, I enjoy motorcycles. I follow some motorcycle racing. I watch stuff about motorcycle racing. I listen to stuff about motorcycle racing. I find it interesting. To him, the like legal stuff is his motorcycle racing. It's for many of you, it could be your football team, your soccer team, whoever, whatever you're a fan of. He is a fan of what he does, and he constantly wants to know more, learn more, see more, and that to me is, is, is huge, and I think that's once again, a big part of why his podcast is, first off, successful, but B, so interesting. He is genuinely trying to learn more.

The other thing is, too, is he's taking and he's looking at what skills are in this, what things that he can use and what he can transfer to other areas. The last piece about it was, I, I've had my dad in the studio who was interviewed on another podcast, and to me, that was a special moment because it was a very, very different conversation. Um, in seeing Andy talk with his father in the studio before they went on air, it was professional, but there was father and son to it.

Um, seeing him in the studio, it was like he was able to ask questions on a different level. He was able to ask some more direct questions. He was able to ask some questions that, to me, seemed very different than what, and part of it was, because there was that prep that gone gone into that. There was that preparation about those things. Um, the the piece that I, that I'm getting at with that is a podcast is a great way to have a specific and special conversation. It's not always for marketing. Sometimes it's for personal use. And for me, having my dad when he was on that other podcast, I know for Andy when he had his dad on his podcast, it was a big deal, because you're able to record these, this legacy information. And I see Andy's now looking for that legacy information with every guest that he has on. It's a different relationship, but he's always looking for that legacy information. Um, to me, like I said, it's a true joy to have him in the studio, um, each and every time. And I always joke, his paralegal that he mentioned, Quana, we both talked about her. She's here every time with him. She is diligently taking notes throughout the podcast. And about every time she sits back kind of a little bit away from the engineering desk, but after like every podcast, I kind of look at her and I'm like, "You, you do realize we're recording this, right?"

Nonetheless, I really appreciate all of you coming along for the ride. Um, it, it's, to to get the chance to talk with someone like Andy is what, to me, is part of what makes podcasting special outside of the marketing materials and the other stuff that you can get from it. Do me a favor, leave a review, a comment. If there's a guest that you'd like to recommend, maybe you'd like to be a guest, let me know. I would love to hear from you. As always, take care of yourself. If you can, take care of someone else, too. I will see you very, very soon.

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Josh Troche

Host