How to Master Nuanced Interviews & Strategically Charge Guests with Tommy Serafinski

Are you avoiding difficult conversations on your podcast, or are you leaning into them to build a stronger audience? In this episode of Podcasting Momentum, we sit down with Tommy Serafinski, host of the Conservation and Science podcast, to discuss how genuine curiosity can transform your show into an industry-leading platform.

Tommy shares his journey from an angling blogger to a podcast host who routinely interviews world-renowned scientists and environmentalists. We dive into the art of asking hard questions in a friendly manner, how to present both sides of an argument to build trust, and why sourcing content ideas from social media debates is a game-changer for brand building with podcasting.

For SMB owners and marketing managers looking for effective podcast lead generation, Tommy drops a massive truth bomb: why you should start charging a guesting fee to filter out PR pitches and ensure your guests are truly invested in delivering value to your audience.

Key Topics Covered:

• Transitioning from a hobbyist to an authority in your niche.
• How to keep personal bias out of controversial topics.
• The two biggest mistakes podcasters make (and how to avoid them).
• Why charging a guest fee elevates the quality of your show.

Connect with Tommy Serafinski:

• Podcast: Conservation and Science -https://tommysoutdoors.com/author/outdoorspodcast/

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Transcript

0:00

If you're genuinely curious, you're probably going to have a great podcast. What does it take to do that, and what are some of the pitfalls in that? This week's guest. Truly, truly amazing. And it's a privilege to have Tomi on the show. You definitely want to stay tuned. Tom, and thanks for coming on today. Your background is it's part of what caught my eye, and part of why I wanted to have you on is not only you are you a podcaster, but you're an outdoorsman. But you're this scientific outdoorsman and a lot of outdoorsman. I mean, most are big fans of what they do. They get heavily involved. And I can see that you have taken that to the nth degree, where now you are the one that is going to read, not just the articles, you're going to read the scientific papers and then you're going to your guests are going to be the scientists that wrote those papers, because you're going to be like, hey, I've got questions. How how did how did the podcast come out of that for you? How did that start? Oh, it start is uh, I the start is in blogs. Remember people there were these things called blogs. So, um, I'm based in Ireland, but I came from Poland, so that that blog was when I was still in Poland. And that was blog about angling. Right? I was an angler. I was catching fish and it all started. Some of you may remember there was like a beautiful program called Picasa for cataloging photos, and I had the photos of my fish that I caught in that program. And there was like a little button in there that says blog. And I was like, what the hell is blog? I don't even know. I'm gonna click this. And it created the website for me. And I was just like, oh, this is pretty cool. So I started blogging. Um, and fast forward a number of years. I moved to Ireland and I was keep keep blogging and it was great. Um, you know, good old times when organic discoverability, you know, there was a time when you could type in Google River Shannon and my blog was in the first place in Google, right? These were the times. So when the good old days, the good old days of organic discoverability. Right. But the blog wasn't polish. And so because I was here, my friends were, you know, English speaking in Ireland, I thought, I want to do something that I could go to the audience, English speaking audience. And obviously for, for international, it is easier to speak than write. So then it was this, this other thing called podcasting. It's like, okay, let's do the podcast. And so that's how how the podcast started, you know, and I thought that the podcast will be a little bit like my blog where I just speaking, talking with my buddies, we go fishing and it's like, oh, you know, this big fish, like, whatever. So that's probably that's how it started. And, and the title, the, the, the, the title of the podcast was Tommy's Outdoors at the time. Right. And so it was fine. We were talking about different things. And, you know, I always was interested in sort of sort of like a conservation angle. Right? Like even since I was a small kid, I was wondering, like when there is this river and there are fish in the river and people are catching those fish, how can we not run out of them? Right? How does it work? So who's making more fish? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it was it was, you know, I know how who's making more fish. But how come we ensure that those who are taking those fish are not doing that quicker than those fish actually, you know, come back. Yeah. So so that was my angle that I always had that in me. And then it was like one moment that I, that I like, in the hindsight recall where we were on social media back in the day, we had this lovely site called Twitter where, uh, someone posted a photo of a, uh, skate card by the angler with a tag and one of the um, officers, environmental NGOs was like, oh, this is useless. Why? You, you know, harming the fish and so on. And then because, you know, I was, uh, quite experienced angler, angler at the time said, I said, hey, no, actually, those tags, they're, they're going into the central database. And that constituted data that can be used for scientific research. And, uh, and so we had a little bit of back and forth between like whether it's useful or is it just harming a fish. And I noticed the there was a um, scientific program called Sea Monitor. I think it was sea monitor. I've done so many of them. So anyway, so I, I talked to those people and say, hey, you have a part of that program that you're tagging fish. Would you like to come on the podcast and discuss that issue? Right. Because that was my thing. I was picking up the problem somewhere I found on social media and said, hey, let's have an experts on and discuss that topic and have some sort of a understanding. What are we talking about? And so I got them on. We had a conversation and after after podcast recording, the project manager of that scientific project, uh, contacted me and said like, hey, Tommy, you know, we actually have like, this is like one work package of this program and we have like a six work packages, and we have a lot of scientists that are just itching to do like a science communication. Would you like to have them on the podcast? And I go, yes. So we done, uh, four or six episodes for this, this program. And as soon as we were done, there was like another one. Hey, I heard that you've done the podcast for this program. Gram. We're running a different one on the, you know, bogs and this like, would you like. And it turns out that there's like a huge demand from scientific community to go out and communicate in a, in a, you know, language like people speak, you know. And so I got, I started getting invited on the scientific conferences and so on. I remember, you know, like one gentleman on the scientific conference, he goes to me and said, like, Tommy, we boring ourselves with these conferences like we just write papers. It's like nobody reads this thing like we need, like we need. Because, you know, I'm coming from the perspective of like a naivete. It's like, oh, really? Right. And and sometimes, you know, I think that what makes relatable me relatable to the audience that that sometimes I know the question, but I'm just playing devil's advocate sometimes or just asking questions, you know, like people usually ask this question, what is your answer to that? So and so there was more and more this angle. And, um, at some point I decided, like, you know, Tommy's outdoors is not really a name that works because it's not about Tommy's, it's not about outdoors. And that's how I rebranded the show to Conservation and Science, because that's really it. So it's conservation and science. So Tommy's outdoors is like a publisher. Um, but the title of the podcast is Conservation and Science. Um, because that really explains well what I do. And, you know, like, I try, like, you know, you heard my tagline that I'm trying to bring diverse perspectives and, and, you know, sometimes I feel like I upsetting half of my audience with every guest, you know, how can you talk to this guy? Right. And how can you talk, you know, like, why are you giving a platform to this? It is great because, you know, one of the listeners from from the not that early days, but, you know, a couple years ago he said, like, you make us listen to people we may have not listened to otherwise. and I go like, yes, this is this is exactly what I want to do. I want to expose people to different ideas, to different points of view, because the dialogue that we have right now in social media is just it's just pointless. It's just a shouting match. And then when you start talking and you can, you can have like a long form podcast where you can have this prolonged discussion and you can poke them a little bit coming from the perspective of, you know, like I said, um, that was a, a journalist symposium in Paris. There was like a journalist symposium on sustainable use of wildlife resources. Right. And, and and everybody. So I was I was invited there as a podcaster. It was journalists and like other people. And that was the podcast guy, and I was the podcast guy. Yeah, right. And so I was talking to, you know, what I do and like, why the podcast and so on. And I said something that I didn't even notice at the time, But Rob York, who was who was, uh, well known, um, you know, like a he he considered himself a dialogue broker. He picked up on it that I said that I'm asking hard questions. I'm asking difficult questions in a friendly manner. And I think that is that is another. That is another. That is another thing. When you have this, this podcast and you have this relation and you, you know, you, you know, where you're at. I know it's remote, right? But you kind of know where you're at. And, and so that gives you gives the avenue to ask all those hard questions like I say early like be a devil's advocate, but in a friendly manner. And I think that that advances discussion, that advances the conversation that, you know, people people can acknowledge more nuanced point of view sometimes where on a, you know, Facebook or Twitter discussion, they wouldn't. Right, because it's a different dynamic. So anyway, that's, uh, probably too long of an answer to your question, how it started and how it's going. No, that's that's amazing. And to me, it's the there's a couple of pieces in there that will kind of come back to and revisit. I love the the bit of a discourse that you talk about in there because to me, I, I dislike when I turn on a podcast and it is one person asking questions and the other person sitting there just smiling and nodding their head. Um, it's supposed to be a discussion. It's they're supposed to be points. They're supposed to be. I'm supposed to learn from this. Um, I don't want to go back to fourth grade and just get lectured. That's that's. I didn't do well then. I did not do well in fourth grade. I don't want to go back to that. That being said, I know you covered a couple of points where you kind of saw where it really started to grow a bit and like what were. I mean, part of it was, okay, I know the thing that I love about it is you started with this being kind of for you. It was a way for you to broadcast information to friends, educate some friends and those that are around you when you like. What was the thing where you started to notice some guests coming on and all of a sudden you're like, oh, this is this is serious. Um, I the podcast guy, when did that click for you? Yeah, I think that was the moment. I think that was the moment where where different, uh, scientific projects like the managers of those scientific projects are started coming to me and professors from universities started saying like, hey, we have this excellent paper, or we have a great student. And, you know, I started getting and, you know, it was like, Holy crap, I'm getting invited somewhere. And, you know, like a haunting organization invited me and they paid for a hotel so I can stay and and attend their event. I was like, whoa, like, you expecting me? Like, no, no, don't do anything. Just we inviting you. I was like, oh, shit. Right. So that was so that was the moment where, where it it it kind of occurred to me that what I'm doing there is a value. Like, people see the value in it. And it was, uh, maybe not surprising, but it was more, more of a nice thing that I, I, I, I am not like a taking sides. I'm not like a one thing. I'm not like a pro, like only hunters and all those things are, you know, bunny huggers. And I like all the, all the hunters are just the, just the killers. And we need to, you know, like, no, I'm, I'm gonna talk, you know, so I have a, I have on the show people from environmental NGOs I had on the show, scientists I have on the show, people who you can, uh, only describe as trophy hunters. And we have a conversation. And sometimes you'll be surprised. You'll be surprised, uh, Uh, what you hear from those people that you would say like, oh, I would never thought they're gonna say that. Um, and I and I think that this opens the door to for other people to actually, you know, um, yeah, be exposed to different opinions. That makes sense. That's that's interesting because I don't know of many other podcasts that have like, both sides on all the time. And that's that's an interesting piece with that. That being said, I mean, you started and you started to allude to it some with like, hey, a free, a free hotel is always a bonus, like anywhere, get out of the house, go someplace new, and I don't have to pay for it. Yes. Yes, please. All the time. Um, that being said, like, what's been the like, you don't necessarily have a business necessarily around this quite yet, but to me and I say quite yet because obviously I know that could be down the future or whatever, but like what's been the the big return on investment that you're seeing. And why does like how does that keep you going in the podcast? Because look, I mean, no one wants to just sit here and talk into the microphone for their health. The people that do want to just sit and talk into the microphone are the ones that I typically don't want to listen to. So there's a purpose behind yours. Like how how do you get the return on the time and all the effort that you're putting in? Yeah. So first I will say that last year was probably the first year where actually podcast made a profit. So congratulations. Awesome. So so that's a so that's the one thing. It was a long time coming. But the question is very much, uh a good one. And I suppose going into all this area of pod fade and we are going into all this area of the creator fit and I think this is excellent fit for, for me as a creator because like I started, you know, we started how this started. These are topics that always interested me. And um, So I take it like a twofold, right? Number one, it became some sort of a mission, right? Like almost a mission. If there is a if there is a problem that is just discussed on social media, for example. And it's not that simple. You know, one of them is like lowering protection status of wolves in the EU where some people are talking like this is worst thing ever, it's going to be wholesale slaughter of wolves. And then other people, when they lower their protection status, like face, which is like a European hunting organization, they go like good news for wolves, like, how is this good news for wolves, right? Like they're gonna get shot. Um, so but this is like, there's a lot of nuance in that, and there's a lot of complexity. And I think that that this is. So this is sort of, of my mission to present all the points of view and say like, hey, the things are usually not that simple. And, and there are people who are affected and there are real risks for that move. And that move was done because of these things, not what you think it was done. And it is. So this is sort of a mission, right? So that's the one part of it. Another part of that is that, for example, I had recorded an episode with a Canadian scientist who spent forty years researching polar bears. Right. Like, absolutely top of the top of the heap, world class scientist, forty years on, research on polar bears. He was darting them, flying helicopters, analyzing data in a computer. You know, like if if he doesn't know something about polar bears, it's not worth knowing. And I spent like an hour and a half talking to the guy. How would how could I do that otherwise? Do you know what I mean? It was like I couldn't, like, ring him up and say like, hey, um, do you want to talk with me for an hour about polar bears? Right. Like, I was like, who is this guy? Like weirdo. So. So having that podcast opens the door, it's like, hey, let's talk about polar bears. And like, you know, what is really the situation with the climate? And, you know, how bad is it? And so on. And you get this guy and he's like, as you can imagine, he's absolutely passionate about Polar Bear. Yeah, you can see he's just lighting up and it's like, hey, I have this like a source of knowledge, like a, you know, best in the world that I can just have this conversation. I can ask any questions that I want and see what. And he's going to tell me a story. So this is like, you know, I just this is why I'm sometimes so, um, you know, annoyed at the conversation in the podcasting world. Like, what is the longest what is the best length of the podcast? It's like, I don't care. I have such an opportunity. I'm not gonna end up that conversation because of the time of your commute. You know, hit the pause, hit the pause, and, you know, restart tomorrow. I'm just having the conversation. So okay, so obviously this is a little bit tongue in cheek. There is a bit of truth in that as well. I you know, I understand that this is important to not bore your listeners to death and so on and so forth. But this is like this, another like intangible element that, that that keeps me going is just access to all those people and being able to feed off their knowledge and learn. And on top of that, you get feedback from other people who say, oh, this is great. I didn't realize this is working that way. So, you know, I guess you know it on a very like a big, you know, grandiose level. It goes to the like, what are we doing here in this world? Right. And if you have opportunity to advance the knowledge and, you know, change mind of somebody or at least get them to have like a more nuanced approach or more nuanced view on something or even, you know, like something that is very, very it's not happening these days. Like, I don't know, I have no opinion, I don't know when was the last time you heard someone said that, right? I agree, I it's it's tough to get to that point because there's, there's things where I, I actually enjoy it when someone asks me a question like, well what's your opinion on this? And I'm like, don't have one. And uh, I'm like, they're like, well, what do you mean? And I'm like, how refreshing, right? I, I literally am so uneducated on this that I don't want to venture a guess. I don't want to stick my foot in my mouth. I get that I, I kind of want to go back to the wolves thing. Um, uh, this really struck me when you said the hey, this is the worst thing that can happen for wolves. And, uh, some people are like, hey, killing wolves is the best thing that can happen to them. And what? Because the irony in that and what I. What I'm going to talk to something adjacent about that. And I kind of want to ask you about something adjacent with that. When you are covering both sides of the story, you're obviously I mean, I know you're here to learn, but I'm assuming that you're going to have a leaning one way or another in some of these issues. How do you try to keep the spin out of that? Because to me, like the Wolves thing is one of those things where I realized as soon as you said it, I'm like, this is a nuanced discussion. Like killing some wolves could actually be good for them. Not necessarily the ones that die, but it can be good for the population overall. So how do you keep your prejudices or spin out of it in order to make sure that, like, hey, I am presenting just this facts and obviously you're going to get the opinion of the person on the other end, but how do you keep yours out of it? Yeah. Uh. Good question. You know, to some extent, maybe not to some extent, uh, you can cut that out. I think it is impossible to to keep your bias completely out of it, No matter what. No matter what you do. So I. I guess I'm making no apologies. I am I am coming from the perspective of an outdoorsman. I'm coming from the perspective of a hunter and angler. But I'm also coming from the perspective of environmentalists because I want, you know, I want nature to flourish. And I want, uh, you know, to be able to go and enjoy. So this is this is the angle that I'm coming from. Now to balance the conversation, I do two things. One, the most obvious thing it is that I'm like I said, I'm inviting guests from different perspectives. So I for example, long. It was many years ago. I've done an episode about conflict between fishermen and seals and. Yeah. And I had, uh, person from Seal Rescue Organization write very emotional language like seals deserve second chance. Like all these things. And then I had a scientist, very factual and matter of fact. And we glued the tag and seal dives, this and this that, that happened. And then I had a trawler man. Right. Whose opinion is like, shoot the bastards, right. Now, the difficulty with that is that those episodes are. Published, you know, weeks, sometimes months, uh, apart, which is sort of like addresses the regular listener because the listener who just tunes out to this one may. Oh, right. This is right. And so they might miss that, that aspect. But hopefully they stay stay around and they will, uh, go. I tried also doing episodes, for example, about the wolves. Like as soon as that thing I knew it's gonna go down. I recorded an episode when I had a five guests on the podcast a hunter, a goat breeder, a scientist, a Nigerian and like five five experts in one episode. That was a busy day. Yeah, yeah, well edit was edit was busy. Yeah it was. So I do those on occasions. You're a podcast editing company, so you know how much you know you're effectively putting work for to for five episodes or three episodes. And that results in one episode. Yep. Um, especially that I'm, I am talking with them separately and I think, like, you know, I could potentially do and I had this feedback, you know, why why don't you do the debate. Like do the debate, Tommy, do the debate. And, you know, like, I like we talked before you hit the record like, you know, I'm, I'm in a, like a corporate environment. So I think I could handle the meeting and conversation and moderate that. But I think the people involved wouldn't be at their best. No I agree. So because at some at some point you start to, you know, you just want to win the argument and then it and then it goes downhill from that point. So I, I talk with them separately. I get get their points and then putting the episode. So this is, this is how I try to manage that. And you know, and like I said, sometimes I get hit, you know, like I've done an episode about the invasive species of deer in Ireland, and it was like one guy who was, you know, from the hunting organization. And then there was another, like an environmentalist who was regenerating a forest. Right. And some people from other hunting organizations, they they came back angry at me, like, why are you giving platform to this guy? It's like, hey, your guy had as much time as the other one to put their points. Like, why are you why are you not telling me like, how great that you got the other guy, right? You upset at me that. Well, maybe. Maybe in the grand scheme of things, your guy's argument were just shit, right? I don't know. Maybe that's how it. But this is this is how I try to. So to answer your question, like. This is how I, how I'm doing this, I, I just think like if anyone has. You know, interesting perspective or done something, wrote a book. Uh, should the film done the research and has a scientific papers on it or something like that? They have a lot to talk about it, and they can answer questions outside of the cliche. And I said like, oh, I think, you know, I tell you what we should do about wolves, right? So this is how I try to do this. But at the same time, I'm not pretending I'm not. You know, I often I often say like, okay, my take on this is such right. And on quite a few occasions guests say like, well, I disagree with you because I think and that's perfectly fine, right? We don't have to we don't have to resolve that problem. Like, this is my point. This is your point. And my next thing that I want to ask you about is something else. So this is this is how I deal with it. I love that that's that's interesting piece to that. And I think it's advice that I think a lot of people can take, because so many people approach their podcast looking for the yes person instead of looking for the education person. Um, is the big thing with that? You've been doing this for a fair bit of time. I am sure there is a big, big lesson about podcasting that you have learned or a mistake that you have made where you're like, oh, don't do that. What? What is like what? Like the big mistake or the big lesson that moved you ahead? Like, what's that big piece that that, uh, you feel you have to take? Can I have two, I guess. Okay, I give you two. We'll count it as a bonus. One. There's one and a bonus. Yeah, one and a bonus. You can decide which one is the main one and which one is the bonus. So I put it in a chronological order. Okay, the first big mistake that I've done is that for the first, probably four or five years of making podcasts, I didn't speak to another podcaster. I was just like, I'm just doing my podcast. I'm just like, do talking with like, things are good, right? And then it was like, oh, there's like a meeting of podcasters. It's like, ah, I was like, ah, maybe I joined, right. And I like online meeting and I joined. It's like, Holy shit. There's like a whole industry. There's like people doing stuff. There's like, right. And so, so that is something that I think that that held back my podcast, at least these, these four or five years, if I started talking earlier to other people who are doing podcasts and they already figure out things, or maybe they are aware of things that I wasn't even aware. So that was a big thing. I was just doing my thing. I was just happy. Like I said, it was a mission. I was happy that I have that opportunity to talk with those people. It was great and that was like, wow, if I, you know, talked earlier, I could start making changes and adjustments to my, to my show, you know, sooner and that that hopefully would be would be the best thing. Um, the other the other advice and I gotta say, it's not it's not really my advice. That's advice that I heard from. From the guy who you, uh, you probably know I heard about this. His name is Adam Shibley. I think he has a podcast called Podcasting Business School or something like that. And and he said, and like, I'm here to tell you that it works, that at some point, as podcasters, we start getting a lot of offers. Right? Oh, we have this great guest for you, or we have this guy, or we have like, whatever. Right. And I and and so what Adam said and I just implemented from day one. Well from day one I heard that from him was like, if if the any given guess like matches, you know, fits your show, you know, clears the bar that you potentially could do it. You go and say like, hey, yes, sure. This is great. Uh, standard guesting fee one hundred dollars or one hundred euro. And it turned out that people started to pay. They want to be on a show and you just needed to ask. You just needed to ask to to get some, some money for your work. And it turns out that, you know, fifty percent, forty percent, I don't know how many like they they all of a sudden say like, yeah, sure. I was like, oh, wow, this is this is so, so then obviously you're building on that and you're just preparing like a proper offer. And so then you can send something and say like, hey, this is standard guesting fee, but this is what I'm offering, and this is my previous guest. And this is like whatever, right. So you start to build that I hate say it business but sort of like, you know, cover your costs for your effort and all all the all the other stuff. And it turns out that when the people and obviously, you know, there are people who, you know, like, uh, you talk to me on on pod match. Right. And the pod match is like people going in and say like, oh, I have this. I'm representing my client. Is this and that? Right. And it's like, my thing is like when you mention client, that means there is a budget. I want a slice of that pie. Right. It's as simple as that. Like you mentioned the moment you mentioned client, it's a business relation. Therefore my service, like I'm not, you know, why would I do the work for you for free? And that's that's the biggest that's a big learning. And I think that that that would be especially in Europe. Right. Because I'm based in Europe, I'm based in Ireland. I think that the podcasting, uh, market, let's say it is a little bit different in, in Europe than it is in North America, because like in North America, people are used to paying for everything. So it doesn't go like like that, that thing like, oh, does it right. It's more natural. In Europe, there's still this expectation of like, oh, well, you're a guy with a complicated hobby. Um, but I think the more podcasters, as a matter of, you know, and I'm not saying it has to be one hundred euro. It may be, you know, here's my buy me a coffee page. Sure. Right. Or something. But for the good of all podcasters in the world, don't be that person who is willing to do the work for free, because there's a lot of work. You're paying for hosting, you're paying for your software. You have your microphone, you record an episode, you edit it, you put it out. You do some social producer, right? You may have a producer, right? So, so there is a lot of going on. And so I don't see like why someone just rolls in and says like, oh, I have a client do that work for free for me. It's like, hell no. I love that. So that's my so that's my second advice. You know, value to the podcast is value your work. And if the people are coming to you, they probably value what you do. And you need to find out, you know, what is your price and so on. But don't do the job for free. And again, I understand in the early days, right? People are just like, oh Jesus, who who is gonna be my guest? I have a guest. Right? But then those shows tend to like just I'm gonna talk to anybody about anything. So as soon as you get to the point where, like, okay, this is a profile of my show, this is what I'm who I talking with and about. And so then when you have someone who matches that, that bar like, okay, fine. Great. Let's, let's, let's do, let's do this. This is what I offer you and you come, you know. So that's my second advice I that's a great piece of advice. The other thing that I was thinking of behind that too, is the piece that If someone's willing to pay to pay to be on the podcast, they see the value in what you're doing. And if they see the value in what you're doing, they're probably bringing a value to someone that's not serious about it, that's not serious about, like, putting themselves out there or serious about being becoming a speaker or getting the notoriety isn't going to put their wallet behind it. Like you're making sure that it's an investment for someone instead of just a, hey, I really like to hear myself talk, and I'm going to do it on your show. Um, because yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We have people, uh, the so where like the short term, where do you, what's the, what's the near term future for the podcast? Um, I, I, I keep doing what I'm doing. Um, you know, I have this idea of, uh, I'm big on the, uh, it's called marginal gains and little improvements and little changes and and like we talked about, you know, like, how can I save fifteen minutes on editing an episode that's in fifteen minutes that I can put into something else? And how can I save a few few dollars or few euros on on hosting on a newsletter, right. Maybe I don't need a pro newsletter right there like a Pro subscription, because the Pro subscription, it has all these problems. And these problems are are actually this pro thing. So I actually paying to have a problem that, that I can solve. Maybe I just, you know, maybe I can do with one automation not seven for my newsletter. So so those little improvements look I, I, I definitely see the, the value in uh like you mentioned synergy of the values. If somebody has a book, if somebody has a has a film, if somebody does the research, If somebody goes and does something interesting for the environment, that is that is something where we can do the collaboration or, you know, like, like I said, those things to all to those things, budgets are attached. And this is this is not to, you know, I'm not planning to quit my day job anytime soon. But, you know, it is nice if you get your Adobe license covered. It's nice if you get your hosting thing covered. And so and even then you can go for, you know, have a free lunch or something like that. So I think we're going to continue on the, on the path that I'm, that I'm in. And the interesting thing is that with those, let's call them commercial engagements, that gives me still freedom to go in and talk to scientists, talk to do the interesting research. They're not going to pay for any of those things because they're very poor. And there's like contrary to some people's belief, there is like not really a lot of money in science. And a scientist and, you know, like I was, I was talking with a gentleman. They had like a project of eradication of feral ferrets on the island who were just decimating birds and so on. Right. And he said, like, okay, this, this project was like so many millions of euro, right? And someone was like, whoa, Holy shit, this many millions of euros. There's these scientists are getting rich. But then he's like, yeah, but the project is like five years. There's like twenty people. We need to get all this equipment. And we're living on the island, right? And then it turns out like, well, shit, like five minutes is actually nothing. Right, right. For this, for this project. So. So I like to do that too, because like I said, this is like this, this, this part of, of of a mission that I have to just expose people to more nuanced views and, and help them, you know, I don't want to say educate them because it sometimes may feel like it's a little bit of a like a patronizing, oh, go educate yourself. Right. But just just open, open the avenue. It's like, oh, I never thought about that. And that is my mission. So this is this is a short term, uh, long term. I have an idea to launch another podcast, which would be strictly hardcore, aimed at scientific community is really at the at the early stage, early career scientists, early, you know, postdocs or even PhD students. Um, so I this is why I do these all these optimizations to carve out a little bit of time and I, I know I can do it. I know there is a potential I'm just waiting to pull the trigger to know that I have enough time to do this. Um, so that's gonna be less of, like, a wider audience. It's going to be like a hardcore scientific academic community. So that is a long term, uh. Addition to Conservation in Science podcast, where conservation and science will be sort of like a, you know, like a mainstream vehicle to which we will have attach this, this very specialized, let's call it, tool for early career scientists. I it's funny because like podcasts, I feel like are like I have motorcycles. Um, notice I said more than one motorcycle. Um, most people like people that go bowling, have more than one bowling ball or. Yeah, it's podcasters. We're we're no different. We can't just have one. We've got to. I've got the podcast that I do for this, and then I've got the podcast that I do for this. Uh, my third one, it's my third one. This one. Right, right, right, right. Cutting back to three is, um, I really appreciate the time. And the insights with this are brilliant. I know you looked up a few times to see me typing, and I'm typing some. I got like seven or eight points that I have to somehow figure out how to summarize at the end here. It's you. A ton of brilliance there. So thank you. Where can people find you? Um, your stuff is I mean, I, I obviously watched a few before I had you on the show. It's it is really, really good. Where can people find you? Thank you. Well, on the very platform they listening to this podcast right now. Listening or watching. As soon as you stop, just go to that search box and type conservation and science and you'll find me. Love that. Thank you once again so much. I appreciate the knowledge. Guys, I'm going to summarize this. Um, I'm going to see if I don't get a headache doing this because a lot of good information. And I will be right back. Oh, Tommy and I spent probably fifteen, twenty minutes talking before the show, and another probably ten, fifteen minutes talking after the show. I truly enjoyed just talking with him, and we're going to kind of get into some of that. And I mean, he mentioned like the access to people. And we're going to talk about that. You're going to see me look down at my computer here if you're watching the video on this, because I took some notes with his show. I take notes with most of the shows. I got a lot to cover today, so let's dive right into it. One of the first things that I noticed, he started looking at topics that he found on social media. What are people talking about on social media that's related to your industry? It is a great, great, great way to find topics. Once again, people are already talking about it. So you're ensuring the relevancy. Now depending on the schedule that you're on and the production schedule that you're on, you need to be careful with when that's going to come out. But in the same sense, if you're only a couple of weeks out, that's something that's I mean, jump on that. I don't want to call it a trend, but yes, jump on that trend. The big piece with that is it's very much it's answer the questions that people are asking. Answer those questions and you have a built in audience. We talk about how you add value to people's day. That's what's going to make them listen to your podcast. If you answer their questions, guess what that is? It's it's a no brainer. It's right there. It's it's ready to go. You're you're giving them the exact information that they want. The other thing that I loved that he goes into is he tries to cover both sides of the story. It's something that most people don't cover. I get it. And I mean, let's talk in so many realms right now, people want like, social media is an echo chamber. It shows you exactly what you want to hear. It doesn't typically give you conflicting opinions. It because, let's face it, most of us don't like to hear that we're wrong or don't like to hear that something else may work. I guess I would say he looks at both sides of the story. I mean, the fact that the Wolves example I loved, like, this is going to decimate wolves. This is going to be amazing for wolves. Why not hear both sides of that story? And that way your audience can make their own opinion. Now, the thing I'm going to say with that is sometimes it is difficult to get people to listen to both sides of the story. But when you when you find an audience that wants to do that, it truly does work. Just it's it's it can be absolutely amazing. Once again, it builds that connection. Now he's got an audience now that really wants to hear both sides of the story, even though it may make them a little bit uncomfortable. He's able to do that because the the quote that I this is the take home quote, he's able to ask difficult questions in an easy, friendly manner. He's not asking difficult questions like in a I gotcha sense, he's asking questions of people in a friendly manner like, hey, I'm curious. This once again, it goes back to what I talked about, like for the intro to the show being genuinely curious. He's got his opinions on things. He's a hunter, he's a sportsman, he loves the outdoors, but he's also a conservationist. So he wants to make sure that we've got the outdoors and those resources for years and years and years to come. So he's trying to balance both sides of the the conservation and the sportsman. He does that in a way that is curious because he genuinely just wants to learn more. To me, that's I've talked about this too is it's in some cases the success of Joe Rogan. He's curious. He wants to learn about stuff. The Chris Williamson in the Modern Wisdom podcast. He's asking questions much, much, much more than he talks. And that is that's that's because he's genuinely curious. He wants to learn. Tommy's the same way he is. He's got high level scientists, like world renowned scientists on his show that he gets to ask questions of. Isn't that amazing? I mean, if you can like, think of the top people in your industry, if you can just sit down with them and ask them questions, how do I do this better? How do I do that better? How do I learn more about this? It truly is an amazing thing to be able to do that. That to me really speaks to the last episode that I had. We'll put that in the show notes, of course, Dave Jackson, he was on the podcast. Dave Jackson is I mean, I would equate him to being that the guy that studied polar bears. Dave Jackson has a huge knowledge of podcasting, and that's why I was truly grateful to have him on the show. Without the podcast, I would never have access to someone like a Dave Jackson. The education driver for me is one that we always like to talk about. Like if you're trying to market your business, if you're trying to make a business branded podcast, that that education piece is such a key. That is, that is your value driver. That is what is going to make people listen to you. You are offering them that value of education. Once again, you guys I know have heard me say this. I say this in the class that we teach all the time. People are giving you their most valuable thing, their time. Now, granted, they may be splitting it between other things. They may be driving the car, they may be doing other things, but people are still giving you their most valuable resource, their time. How are you going to give them a value in return? Educating them is one amazing way to do it. If you compile some entertainment on top of that, you're going to be in great, great, great shape. As he talked about doing the conflicting sides with things, he talked about how people so often want to win the argument instead of just making their point clear. It's something to think about when you're talking about something that may be controversial. Don't be trying to win the argument. Just state your case. State what supports your items. And this is the same when it comes to marketing. Like tell people what are the benefits from this, why they should be doing this. It's not an argument. It's really it's just here's the facts as I see them. Makes it much, much easier. And once again, it brings down some of those defenses. He also said learn from other podcasters. And boy, what a great tip that is. Why do you think I have this show. It's very much. It's so I can learn from other podcasters. I mean, to me, truly what I learned from Tommy and so much of this was absolutely awesome. I truly I appreciate his time and all the effort that he's put into his podcast, so we all can learn from that. The building with intention. So like I said, with guests, him asking for some money for some guests, I truly love that we get approached all the time. Hey, I would love to be a guest on your show. I get it all the time from marketing people, from other people that are like, I want to be a guest on your show. And I'm like, well, okay. We talk about podcasting. We talk about building branded podcasts for marketing for companies. That's what we talk about. And they're like, oh, yeah, I can talk about that. I'm like, how? And once again, it really comes down to in so many cases, people just want to they want on your platform because they want to use your microphone. I get it, I can understand why they want to do that. You need to make sure that it serves you. And that's why asking for a couple of dollars I don't think is a big deal. Now, the things that I want to say about the flip side of that is a it still needs to fit your audience, and b it still needs to fit your topic. Don't just say because someone's willing to give you four hundred dollars to be a guest on your podcast. Don't be like, yeah, we'll talk about we'll talk about anything. Um, there's a lot of topics that I, we're just not going to talk about on our podcast. We talk about podcasting. We talk about how to get better. As a podcaster. I want to stick with those people. The ability to charge a few dollars for that, to help cover some of your costs isn't a bad thing, because once again, you have something of value as long as you are making sure it's valuable to your listeners. With all that being said, once again, make sure you go follow Tommy, especially if you're into anything outdoors or conservation. I've listened to a number of his podcasts, and that's why I wanted to have him on the show. He's a great host. He has on some truly, I mean, interesting, interesting individuals that I mean, once again, there's these scientific papers that these people are looking at and they need to get their message out. So if you like the outdoors at all, he is definitely one that you should go check out. Do me a favor. Take care of yourself if you can take care of someone else too. I will see you very, very soon.