Mastering Podcast Guest Matching & Real ROI with Alex Sanfilippo

Finding the perfect podcast guest is often like finding a needle in a haystack. It can be confusing, time consuming,and frustrating. In this episode of Podcasting Momentum, I sit down with Alex Sanfilippo to learn how he solved this massive industry problem by founding PodMatch, a platform that connects podcast guests and hosts for interviews using matchmaking technology.

We dive deep into how Alex transitioned from his early days of recording a failed podcast in his car to building a platform that thousands of creators rely on. We also discuss the incredible "Pod Value Initiative," where PodMatch shares its profits to actually pay podcasters and help offset their production costs.

If you are focused on brand building with podcasting, you need to hear Alex's take on the rising problem of AI-generated spam pitches. We discuss exactly how PodMatch penalizes users who rely solely on AI outreach, and why authentic human connection is the ultimate key to podcast lead generation. Whether you are a host or a guest, you'll learn the essential etiquette required to stand out, including why seventy percent of successful guests say their secret is simply doing pre-show research. Finally, Alex reveals his number one piece of advice for any new podcaster: completely understand your "why" and design a highly specific listener avatar before you ever hit record.

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Transcript

0:00

Finding the right guest for your show is often like finding a mate. And we all know how that goes in some cases. In steps pod match to take a lot of the confusion out. But how does it work? Why does it work and why does it work as well as it does? This week we're going to find out. Alex, as the matchmaker of the industry, that's not offensive when I say that, is it? No. You know, I've been married too long to be on a dating app. Some people say that dating apps have a really bad like, I don't know, like, vibe around him and stuff, but to me, that sounds cool. I'll take it. Good good good good good, I love it. With that, I want to go back to like, why did you get into podcasting? Because I know it just didn't be like, hey, I'm going to match people up on a podcasting app even though I've never Podcasted. You this started from somewhere. So what was the start here? Yeah. I mean, I'm going to give this spoiler right away. Yes. My first podcast didn't go well. Um, like most people's first attempts, but, um, actually, it was a funny story. I was working full time in the aerospace industry and before anyone gets excited, I was not an astronaut, I was not a skydiver and I was not a fighter pilot, worked behind a computer. Loved the job. Like I love business. It's always been a fun thing for me. But I was going to go visit one of my departments, so I was like walking, uh, going to a different floor. And it was like the inventory and shipping receipt, which was one of the divisions of the company I was overseeing at that point. And I could hear as soon as I got back into like I was walking through the inventory, I could hear like something really loud, like I'm like, hey, there must be like watching something on TV on their computer or something like that. I get all the way back and I was like, hey, Alex, like, turn like, look at the computer screen, expecting to see something on it. The screen was blank. It was like, I was like, what do you what is this? And like, oh, it's a podcast. And I just remember being like, what the heck is a podcast? And they described it to me and. Josh now it's shameful to say it. So I was like, they explained to me, I just said, that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. I'm like, why don't you just like listen to the radio? And then like, and, and the thing is, I want to say this was like two thousand and five, you know, like when podcasting was early. No, this was like twenty twelve. I mean, I was pretty late. And, um, anyway, so I, I just have normal dialogue with them. It's still on the background and the person speaking was like interviewing somebody that actually piqued my interest, which is amazing how that works. Right? And I was like, hey, what did they just say? I'm like, is there a way you can like go back on this? Like, oh, look at Alex. He's into podcasting now. I was like, I don't know, guys. And they're like, hey, it's on your phone. I'm like, no, it's on my phone. I don't have podcasting like the little purple app. I was like, okay, I do have my phone. And so before I walked out, I got the name of it and I went and looked it up myself. And I'd say an hour and a half later, I was hooked. Like I was into podcasting, like an hour and a half. I went from this is stupid to I am psyched to listen to this like. And I queued up all I was like, you can listen to anything like, and you can listen on your own time. Like how incredible. I don't have to watch it. And, uh, I just remember falling in love with podcasting really quick. Like that was kind of how I got started. Now I have to before I continue the story. Josh. I have to know, like, when did you discover your first podcast? Like as a listener? Like when did that happen? For me, it was actually, I spent a lot of time on the road back in, I would say twenty twelve, twenty thirteen, um, was traveling a ton and I could only listen to so much radio before I wanted to yank the wheel into a bridge abutment. Um, so at that point, I thought if I'm sitting here for like six or seven hours on the road, I should learn something. I should figure something out or I should get catch up on the news, whatever it was. So I started to, to dive into some of those podcasts and like, it was even back then, it was like the Freakonomics podcast and stuff like that. Because story and learning and somewhat entertaining and I'm like, yeah, I can, I can do this. So yeah, that's where it kind of started from and got me, got me into it. Okay. So similar year. I'm glad to, glad to hear that you're a pro in the space. So I'm really glad that like, you're not like, dude, I started the day podcast and kicked off, right? Like I didn't know I'm not day Jackson. Right? Yeah. For real. I love, love Dave Jackson. He's a real OG in the space. Yes. Um, anyway, so I was listening to podcasts and I really, really loved it, but not just because of what I was learning, but I was like, man, I would like to do this. And it was one of those things where I'm like, oh, I don't have to like go to a radio station. Like, I can do this from home. I remember looking it up and, and like realizing like, okay, it's a little bit complicated to get started. But once you get started, like you can kind of do it. And so I recorded it into my straight into my smartphone, if you can even call it back, back, back in those years. Right. But I recorded it sitting on my couch. No, I wasn't even sitting the couch. I was sitting in my car because I thought that that would be a good place to record. Yeah, perfect. No hard surfaces there. Right, exactly. Um, so I record in the car. It sounds awful. I do twelve episodes and I actually got feedback from it, believe it or not. At that point, I was speaking to other people that were, uh, like in the business space. Nothing, nothing crazy. Like I didn't have any like revelation to share, didn't have any product or service or just like, hey, I've been dealing with this. I wanted to share about it. The episodes were maybe maybe ten to fifteen minutes and it was just me talking and it was cool. I got some cool feedback from people, mostly that had already known, and then I was like, this is a lot of work. I'm done. And I was just listening. And so that was my that was my origin in podcasting. I mean, it goes on, but that's how I got started. That's I, it's amazing because I feel like everyone has that moment where they say, I want to be a podcaster and they start, they record something. And then it is about that ten, twelve, fifteen episode thing where they start to realize this is work. Um, it's not just me. And I mean, I make the race car analogy all the time. Everyone's like, I drove to work today. So I'm a race car driver. It's the same way that I can talk. Therefore I'm a podcaster. Um, but people kind of see it. I think in some ways the same way that, that, that aside, fast forward a couple of years, there's a lot of people having guests. I have guests on all the time. Um. There's a problem with finding guests and I believe. And finding people, finding good hosts. And I believe you saw that problem and was like, hey, let's make a platform. Does that is that the is that the way to short summary of that? Because I'd really like to hear how Pod match was birthed, hatched, whatever you want to call it. Yeah. Well, uh, I actually made it as a podcaster as well. So like to fill in the gap real quick. I had two more shows after that very short failed attempt. Um, one of them was like a faith based. So like I followed Jesus and I talked about that and I brought on just friends and same thing straight into my iPhone sitting on my living room couch, fifteen to twenty minutes on those. And that show did like exceptionally well. Wow. Like, so well that I realized, okay, there's actually like, there's opportunity in this podcasting space to actually like impact beyond just your sphere of influence, which I wasn't sure because unlike most people who get into podcasting, I didn't expect to become one of the big celebrity podcasters because most of them are celebrities before they were podcasters, believe it or not. Right? And by the way, the quote podcast momentum from Josh, like I drove to work today. So I'm a race car driver because it's basically the same thing like that. I've, I love, I literally have that quote written down. Like I'm not exaggerating. I have that quote written down. Like that is such a good analogy. So for me, it's like, no, I don't need to be the next celebrity podcaster because they were already a celebrity beforehand. Whenever people tell me, hey, I really want to be the next Joe Rogan, like we've all heard that, right? I don't even want to use his name. When people tell me that, I'm like, oh, are you currently the the host of Fear Factor? Because that's what I watched when I was a kid. That's how I know who he is. And people are like, no, I'm not. I'm like, oh, well, we got to get you there first. You know, like anyway, so but I did realize that like, beyond being a celebrity podcaster, if you just had fifty to one hundred people listening, like there was real value that could happen. And so fast forward a few more years, this is getting close to that pod match story. But I decided like, hey, I'm going to launch a podcast to learn how to become a successful entrepreneur. And I wanted to learn like, what have people done to leave a nine to five job to become a full time entrepreneur. How have they done that? And now for this show. I knew three people. Josh would be a good fit. So I invited all three on because I had only interviewed my sphere of influence. So I had three of them like, cool, I want to commit to one hundred episodes. I'm going to start with three. I invited them on. I got through those three. I invited them all back on. They were all kind, said they come back. And then I invited them all back on again and they said, Alex, you need more friends. And so that's when that's when the grind of like, okay, now I need to actually find I don't have this sphere of influence. And we're going back to twenty eighteen. And back then there was people didn't see the value in podcast guesting at that point. Like if we fast forward to today, like that seems like a foreign language. Me even saying the words like not valuable in podcast guesting in the same sentence. Right? But back then people were like, well, I'll do it because I like you. Like, sure. Right. And like, that's the only reason that people could see to do it. And you and I both laugh at that today. And anyone hearing this is like, wow, there was a time where people didn't realize what they had. Right? Right. And anyway, long story short, I started reaching out to people and sometimes I'd get a yes. Most of the time it was a no. Sometimes the person I got yes from, I was like, uh oh. Shouldn't have reached out to them. I didn't realize until afterwards. We've all been there, right? I ran into a lot of these problems, and ultimately that's what made me realize, like, there's, there has to be a better way because at the end of the day, I was realizing, again, my podcast had real influence, real impact, but not a single listener cared. That took me six months to track down the guest. All they cared about was the episode coming out, and that's not me. They shouldn't care. Like, I'm not saying anything negative about people listening like their job is not to be like, wow, I wonder much production went into this. Doesn't matter. They want to they they show up for the value and they're there to, to also encourage you in that. And I'd be like, oh man, Alex, I know it took you twelve hours to probably find this person. Like maybe, but that doesn't matter, right? And so I'm like, this is just not valuable use of my time as a podcaster. The value is behind the microphone when we're doing this. Right. And I'm not, I'm not saying like we shouldn't take a lot of pride in our production. We shouldn't work on that. That's all Great. That's super important. That's part of the impact as a listener. But at the end of the day, what matters most is what happens behind microphone because you have all the production in the world. And if what you're saying is garbage, you're putting lipstick on a pig. If you're putting too much production time into something that's not good. And so for me, I just realized like, hey, there is actually a real problem here. Huh? That's, it's interesting because the other piece of that, that I've loved, that pod match has solved too, is I talk about like how now there's kind of the opposite problem is we get pitched all the time, like emails all day long of so and so would be a phenomenal guest for you. And one of my favorite stories about this is the Business Fix podcast that I do with Kristie Myers. It is, it's a co-host of podcast. We, I co-host it with her. Um, we constantly are getting messages saying, hey, I think so. And so would be a great guest for you. At which point I'm like, who's been your favorite guest as of thus far? Because we've never had a guest on the show. We're so people. That's one of the things that I do like about Pod Match. It is it is matching the right people with the right people. Now, granted, we still have to to filter them on our own filter. If you have the wrong person on, you can, you can have the wrong person on. But I'm not getting pitched by ten thousand people for the exact wrong podcast for the exact wrong thing. And it's one of the things I truly like with that. One of the things that there's a, another business impact that I've seen with Pod Match, which I think is pretty cool because we're focusing on return on investment, not just vanity metrics. I mean, you spoke to that fifty people. Like if you get fifty listeners, that's pretty cool. Um, fifty. I mean, I would walk into the room next door to talk to ten people, let alone fifty. Uh, that being said, you've created a system that pays hosts, which I find really, really cool. I've received some deposits from this. Granted, it's not the full reason why I'm doing it. Obviously, it's not the thing that's keeping the lights on in the studio. Um, it is a nice bonus. Um, how could like, beyond that? Um, actually, if you could speak to that and why you did that in the first place and then like, how can someone use pod match as like a lead generation tool? Let's say if they're looking for specific people? Yeah. Um, so first off, thank you for bringing this up. We call it our pod value initiative. And it's very rare that I get to talk about it. So thank you. I mean, a lot of people see it and typically like the way they talk about it, like, hey, how do I get in on that? That's the that's the question I get. Which is fine. Um, but I like to actually talk about like the heart behind it matters to me too. And for sure, if anyone, anyone asks, they're like, you're like, yo, I would like some money. I'm like, yeah, sure. Great. Join, you know? Um, so we called our, we called our pod value initiative. And the idea was, I realized shortly after we watched Launch Pod Match, and really, I'm grateful. When we launched Pod Match, I had the idea on March tenth, twenty twenty, and by June fifteenth, twenty twenty, we launched. So we started before the world shut down. And like, by the time the world shut down, like it was, it was, it was live and that I could not have planned that timing better. Like I had nothing to do with that. So I'm just really grateful for that. We launched, we saw immediate traction because it directly solved the problem that I had and that so many other podcasters had as well, which was just, hey, can we bring the right guest and host together faster? And like you mentioned matchmaking at the start here. Um, that's ultimately what it is. Like when I wrote down the idea for it in the bottom right hand corner of all my whiteboards that I mapped everything out, I wrote down these words like a dating app, but instead of connecting people for dates, it connects podcast guests and hosts for interviews using the same ish technology. And it goes like, well, I'm not gonna reinvent the wheel. It's find someone who's done it. And so like, we launched with that and again, it solved the problem. People were signing up like crazy. I mean, this is a side note, but a fun fact. I like to share my co-founder, Jesse. He's like, hey man, I just need to know how many people you think will sign up by the end of the year. Like we're launching in the middle of the year, like by the end of the year. I'm like, I think a thousand people will probably join by the end of the year. I'm like, and he's like, man, that's, that's amazing. I was like, yeah, it's a little ambitious, but we can do it. I think we went to bed the night we launched and the next day we woke up in over a thousand people joined while we were sleeping. And then he's like, dude, he's like, I didn't build it for this. I was like, I know, I'm sorry. That probably just it's the it's the early rush won't happen again the next day. He's like, dude, another thousand people join. While we were sleeping, I was like, oh man. I was like, are we in trouble? He's like, yeah, we're in big trouble. So, um, what a great problem to have a good problem to have at the same time. Terrifying. Because at any point the software could have broken, which gets to that's a story for a different podcast. But my point in saying all this is, um, we were really excited. We saw this growth. And so I started, we started tracking some data and like, we didn't even have analytics when we started, but we started adding them. I immediately saw a red flag, like something that made me stop dead in my tracks. And I said, Jesse and Alicia, my other co-founder, is also my wife. I was like, there's a problem. I'm like, do you see how many podcast hosts are leaving? And they're like, oh, we didn't have that data before, like today. And you're seeing it right away. I was like, what's going on? Like something's broken. Like something we're doing is not working. It's not actually solving the problem. It can't. There's no way. And so I just said, hey, when people start deleting their account, just automatically send an email and give them a link to my calendar saying, hey, the founder would love to just hear your experience so we can learn and which now those are the days of grinding, you know, like I remember one day on one day I did twenty five calls in one day. Um, and then I figured out you could limit your calendar. Um, so I toned it down a lot, but I was going through these calls and I kept occasionally I heard, hey, pod match sucks. You know, I'm like, okay, that's fine. You know, like occasionally I heard that, but that I thought that was gonna be the majority, but the majority was, oh, I'm not actually quitting pod match. I'm quitting my podcast altogether. And then it took me back to my first one. I told you, I did those twelve episodes and realized it was work and then quit. And I'm hearing that like, same thing. I'm like, okay. I'm like, well, there's nothing we can do about that. And then I got a little smarter. I'm like, well, is there something we can do about. I need to ask, because I wasn't asking any follow up questions was like, oh, well, I'm sorry. So I just started asking and I was like, well, like, what makes podcasting not worth it? And the big thing I heard was every month I see my bills from being a podcaster and like, it's not a lot, but I see the negative and I don't have the results I want or my significant other, my spouse, my family, I'm taking away from that budget. Like our hobby budget is getting drained by this. And so I kept on hearing that. I was like, oh man, I can't pay you. I don't think, you know, like in my head, I'm just like, what do we do with this? And I remember like sitting back and like in some other software founders had noticed pod match because of that early success. So they started talking about the same thing like, oh, people just leave. And like, we're trying to get a lot of them use different verbiage and they're like, we're trying to get as much money as we can before they leave. And for me personally, like I just, I have a different set of morals. I'm not saying that is the point of business, I suppose, but that really bothered me. Like made me uncomfortable to hear those words like, we want to get as much money out of them as we can before they leave. And I thought, I'm like, wait, if we just take all the podcasters money, there's no podcasting industry without podcasters. You know, like if we're just trying to bleed them dry and then burn and churn. I'm like, I don't want to be part of that. And I'll never forget this. I sat down actually at my pool, my, my community pool, like, um, it's like super nice out there. Super relaxing. I took pen and paper. Purposely took no tech. I'm like, I'm gonna figure this out. I remember sitting down, I'm like, oh, we actually could share our profit. And like, we figured out how to basically do a fifty fifty split. So it's our pod value initiative and we cut our profit in half. Half goes back to podcast. The other half is reinvested in the software and keeps the lights on for us as people as well. And, um, we just decided we wanted to, to be able to give back. And I'll say this, it's not a lot our end game with it. Our goal is can it offset your production costs? So if you're spending forty dollars or fifty dollars a month on podcasting, can we offset that? And now listen, I know that there are some big production shows and some shows that Josh that you do, they're not, they don't need to offset their production costs. They have a different a different perspective. I'm talking about the independent individual podcasters, like forty, fifty dollars a month is a lot for me right now. And if we're saying if we can give you that, will you stay podcasting because we believe in the value that's adding to the world? And so that's the whole, the whole vision behind the pod value initiative. And to this day, at time of recording this, we've given over over a million dollars back to podcasters in the last couple of years that we've been doing this. And that is my favorite part about what I get to do is knowing that that's going out every single month. Like that is that is a joy for me to be able to see. It's funny because I saw just on the LinkedIn post the other day when you said, we've reached the million dollar thing. And I, when I saw that, I thought that was awesome. And that's, it's part of the reason to why I was super excited for us to sit down and talk because for us, it's the same thing. Like our core value as a business is success is a shared thing. Um, we don't want to bleed anyone dry. We're, we're not here to do that. We reject podcasts all the time that come to us that say, hey, we want to do this. And we're like, look, your expectations aren't in line with what you're going to get. We don't want to take. We don't want to take three months of money from you in order to try and do this. We're we're just going to tell you no upfront because we don't we don't want to bleed. We don't want to bleed anyone. We're here to make podcasting better as a whole. It's why I do those fifteen minute non no pitch podcast consults. I tell people all the time, get your camera up. I don't want to see up your nose. Get the microphone closer. I mean, I say that ad nauseam, but it's because we want people to get better because as you found out with your first one, the pod fade. Um, I think the most recent number I saw, what was what, eighty six percent don't make it past episode fifteen because of that work and that effort. And I, I love the fact that you guys are trying to keep podcasters podcasting with that, with as many matches as you guys have made, I'm sure there's a ton of success stories. Is there one that comes to mind where you've heard a story about a pod match match that I don't know turned into this major episode are turned into a marriage or turned into this life changing event. There's got to be one of those stories in there. Josh, I'm laughing here because I'm waiting for the marriage one. And I told my wife, I'm like, if I don't get to be like the officiant at that wedding, like, or if I don't get invited, I'm like, I'm showing up one way or another, I will be, I'll be standing in the back row and I'll be back in the room and I won't eat food at the reception, but I'm going to be there, right? Like, to my knowledge, there's been no marriage yet, and that would have been the one I shared. And one day I'm going to be able to share that one. It just hasn't happened yet. Um, I'll tell you what. There's, um, there are and I'm grateful for this. There are countless stories I can use and I don't get to hear them all, but some of them I hear and it's like, it's amazing to be able to hear. Um, but I've had a number of people. What I love is they met first through one being a guest, one being a host. They matched, they hit it off, they form some sort of business friendship partnership together afterwards. And like, I've seen some people that sometimes they'll tag me on social media, which I love saying, hey, we, we like both traveled to Amsterdam to meet because it was in between where we are like two people getting to meet from like different sides of the world. But like, we had such a good time, like we wanted to actually meet in person. And like, to me that is huge, but I can think of one and it's a bit of a sensitive topic and show. So I'll keep, I'll keep them nameless if that's all right. Yeah, but it's about people that have have left abusive relationships and people sharing their stories about that and like how to like regain your proper mindset, confidence and thrive once again. And these two individuals were doing something similar. Both, they were both guest and host, and they found they weren't making quite the impact they wanted, but they interviewed together and they like swapped. So they were on each other's shows through pod match. And then they just decided to they formed an entire organization around this. And it is absolutely thriving now. And so they specifically focus on helping women that have been in some sort of verbally or physically abusive situation and help them get through that. And I being able to facilitate that, like just meeting them, meeting each other like that makes the whole thing worth it. Like if I never made another dime off of it. That's actually changing lives. And so I'm not claiming to have a piece of any of that other the fact that we just initially brought them together. And so that's, that's the story that comes to mind today that I wanted to share. That's that's amazing. Amy. To me, that it's one of the reasons why I was excited to ask that is because we both know there is power in podcasting and there is power in that connection. Um, one of the things I joke with people all the time is like podcasting is intimate. Um, you and I, I'm asking very intentional questions about you when you're just having a conversation with someone, you don't typically ask intentional questions from a me to listener standpoint, there are people out there that have literally inserted us in their ears. It doesn't get any creepier or more intimate than that. So you've, you've said that like serving one person is the key to longevity. Um, has that philosophy changed in how like you write the algorithms and everything like that through pod match because I. When I see, I get when I go into my pod match, I. Get an array of people. Now they all seem to fit really well with what I'm doing and who I want to talk to. But once again, it's a. It's a wide range of people. It's not just people that look or sound exactly like me. How like, how does, how do, how does the algorithm and the one person thing work together? It's, it's a, it's a balance and it's, it's an evolving balance in dance. Like it's changing a lot all the time. Like you go back when we first launched, like AI wasn't on people's radar yet. And like when that came out, it's like, okay, we, we removed a lot of humanity from the, the digital world, right? Like a lot of it. And so for us, like serving one person still means like, how do we put a human and a human together? And like our number one core value is human to human. And for us, it's like the way that we treat people as human, the way that people treat each other on our platforms to be human. And so we consistently are, are evolving and changing our algorithm, our standards, everything across the board is changing. And to give one specific example here that we just launched into Pod Match Productions, we realized like, okay, the AI pitching is getting out of hand, uh, at the industry level. And by the way, so the industry at large is what helps us decide what's going to happen in pod match. Because what we know is if we look at the industry, that will eventually trickle into our much smaller software than the size of the whole industry. And so when we look at that to inform, okay, we need to be prepared because this is what we're seeing. And so more and more complaints, like I follow a bunch of different, uh, groups online on social media and just follow tags and just like looking, okay, what are people saying? And the number of complaints from hosts saying, man, I, I'm getting AI pitches from everybody. Uh, like, like you have a leadership podcast, um, the business fix. I'm sure a dentist has reached out to you to be on the show one hundred percent. Right? And, and I had one reach out to me. I'm like, hey, my, my podcast is about podcasting. I don't think being a dentist is the right fit. And they actually said back, they said, well, everyone needs a good smile. And I was like, that is a good point. You know, like, still no, but great point. Um, anyway, my point is like these individuals, they're reaching out and maybe they just haven't given enough thought that there's a human that's receiving this, right? And it's, it already builds a bad connection. If I'm going to come on your show and I've never had a real conversation with you if like, I haven't even bothered sending you a real email or reading anything you've said, like, we have no real bond before we get here. And that can be dangerous. And so we looked at things like that and basically we did Inside Pod Match, we have two layers of this. One, we use AI to check to see if people are only using AI when they pitch. And we also asked the recipient of the initial message to rate it one through five. And we kind of give some description there. And as you do that, it determines that the person who sent the message, how often they're allowed to send new messages like they can receive at any point if someone reached out to them, they can, but it's telling them, hey, your acceptance rate is or your pitch ranking is getting lower and lower and lower. Here's the adjustments you need to make. Like we can see that you're just copy pasting the same. I pitch the system can tell and people are noticing it and they don't like it. If you change it, you'll get more opportunities to reach out. Because we had somebody even today email and they're really upset. They're like, hey, the system's not letting me message anybody. And it's because ninety nine people rated a one on your pitch. And that's kind of the cap, like you're not allowed to reach out anymore. You've lost your privileges for being rude, you know, like, and so it's one of those things, it's like we try to offer the education training. And that's one of the things that we've had to learn to adjust to keep the human element the forefront. Listen, pod match is not like a get rich quick scheme for podcasters, like being on a thousand shows or getting ten thousand guests. Like it's going to take work. And if it's good and if it's work, it worth it. It's worth the work that we put into it and we do our best to do something. Actually, you had a great episode with Sarah. Lucy, uh, aired March third, twenty twenty six. Talking about the real ROI on podcasting. For me, the real ROI in on pod match is the same thing. We set the expectations up front, she said. Set the expectation clearly from the beginning. We do the same thing. The whole process of onboarding to pod match being part of it. It should feel very human. You really should feel like you're talking to me. And that's really the goal that we've built it out. So anyway, it's, it's a, it's a long way to answer your question. We're constantly evolving and adjusting and making sure we're staying ahead of the trend of what we see happening online because we want to preserve what podcasting really is for the world, which I think is two human voices in this scenario, right? Really offering something amazing that someone gets to listen to. It's amazing. And I love how you approach that because it was interesting. We use, I mean, a ton of AI in our business for helping us, right. And all the other stuff. Last year, we did a ton of outreach for sales, and we would get people with some of those AI pitches. Now they are so common that they have become so easy to spot that we've had to totally change our sales philosophy in terms of how we are approaching people for production to be like, okay, this is no longer an AI pitch. We're not doing the same thing because everyone else is trying to do that, and I. Love the fact that and for lack of a better term, that you will completely neuter someone's account if they're spamming people. Um, that's, that's, it's beautiful because it speaks to, it speaks to success of the podcasting host and guest rather than just being, hey, we are another platform that can just, you can spam the spam the hell out of people. Um, we've already got enough social media platforms to let people do that already. Um, that being said, what do you feel is because I know you have been on a slew of them and you see all these interactions, what do you feel is the top thing when it comes to host etiquette? And then the flip side of that guest etiquette. Host etiquette is really about knowing your listeners. I think first off, like, which maybe sounds weird. I just mentioned etiquette. Like that's who you're ultimately serving. Like you have to know who you're serving. And sometimes I get invited on shows and I push back on on some hosts. They're like, hey, I'd love to have you on. I'm like, hey, you know, I only talk about podcasting. I see your podcast is about this. Like, I don't know if it's a good fit. They're like, oh, well, I just really want to talk about podcasting. And to me, that seems inappropriate. I'm like, you and I can have a private conversation on podcasting if you want, but if your listeners are expecting you to talk about like, uh, I don't know, sustainability and or homesteading, I'm like, I'm not the right fit. Like that's, that feels inappropriate for me to show up like, because they're trusting you there. I always visualize listeners, people sitting in a room and I'm sitting on stage. If I, if I walked in, it was a, it was a homeschool convention, uh, talk. And I walk in, I talk about podcasting. People are going to leave. They're like, why am I, this is not what I came here for. And so for me, the first etiquette thing is to make sure that you're bringing the right person in the room. And then once you are to very clearly set the expectation with with that guest, which is something that actually, Josh, you're great at, you and your team do a very good job of making sure the expectation is clearly set. And I think it's why you have you've had a lot of success in the podcasting space is because you're good at saying, this is what. This is what you can expect, right? This is what's going to happen. And I think that as a host, it's your job to do that with with your guests. You can tell them, hey, this is the direction, this is who it's for. And I think that most what I found, especially I'll speak for myself, I love that what I don't love is showing up and being unsure why I'm there, unclear where it's going to go and I don't need a script. I don't need like an outline. I just need to really get I need to get in your mind because you know the listener better than I do and so on. The, the first thing I'll share on the host side, that's, that's my thought on etiquette. I don't know if that's the direction you wanted to go for sure. No, it's, it's, it's, it's knowing, it's really, it's making sure your guest is comfortable, but it's, you got to realize too, your guest is also there to serve your audience. Yeah, one hundred percent. Like they're there to serve your audience. I think that going to etiquette is a guest. Uh, you've got to you've got to know what you're showing up for. Again, like we do live in the day of AI pitching outreaching. And. There are times now where again, I just. LinkedIn seems to be the real hot spot for this and directly to people's email. Where someone just works their way into a podcast through like all their different. AI pitches and follow ups. They get there and they know nothing about the podcast. They're like reading the names. They're like, okay, this podcast is podcast momentum and. Is it pronounced Josh? You know, like they're showing up with like, no, no understanding. Of what they're getting into. And to me, like the number one piece of etiquette is like. Listen to the show, do your own thought, your own research, like know what you're going. To show up to say, like, think, see if you can figure out who's really listening to that. And I did a poll of it was over a thousand guests on pod match and asked, like the ones who've been most successful. So I took the most successful ones. They've done the most. That's kind of how I determined it, which maybe is not the ultimate source of success. But I still learned a lot. And over seventy percent of them said that what made them different than other podcast guests was the time and energy they put into their research before ever getting to the recording. And so again, these are people that have done it time and time again that does say something, right? Over seventy five percent of them saying, hey, it's because I spent time on it. And I'll tell you what, like the I'm sure you've had a guest come in that doesn't know who you are. Josh like I well, hopefully not. I think you do a good job vetting, but so many podcasters have had people come in. They don't know the host name. And so to me, like proper etiquette is a guest. Do your time. No one else is doing it. The listeners can see it, the host can feel it. It shows up in the way that that you get to have this meaningful experience together. People can tell when you're prepared. Well, we preach, uh, one of my famous things that I always like to say is podcasting is like painting a room. Um, the way that room turns out is totally dictated by the preparation. If you take all the switch plates off, if you tape off all the windows, if you wash the walls, you're going to have a good paint job. If you pop the lid of the can open and spin in the room, you're probably not going to have a very good paint job, a more fun paint job. But I do love that analogy. I've never heard that before. That is really good. Yeah, I might I'm going to use that if that's okay. Yeah. okay. Go right ahead. So good. Go right ahead. It's. I mean, once again, you'll have a more artistic room. But yeah, not going to be as good of a paint job with that. Um, with that I'm excited because you're not someone that's going to sit back and be like, hey, we've got pod match. It's great. Um, you're not going to leave well enough alone. What are some things that you are? And I want to ask this as a two pronged question because you have a unique insight. One, what's what do you see on the road for pod match? And then the other one is, is what do you see coming down the pipeline for podcasting as a whole? Yeah. So first off for Pod Match I last year. So just let's just go back over the last twelve months time of recording this. I spent a lot of time going to different podcasting events, meetups. I went everywhere because I'm always looking for the pulse. Like what's the pulse? And so what I really realized is that there is this hunger for more community among podcasters, not even just the host, but host and guests like, and not just what we're doing today, recording, spending that time. Like that's all great, but people want more connection with other people. And we've kind of already alluded to this, but the reality is like with, with the rise of AI and so many tools, we're getting less connected online, less connected than we've ever been before. Like you can feel the soul of it kind of getting stripped away. And so it makes sense. The next logical thing is like, oh, people want to intentionally be where other people are. And so what I'm, when I'm really planning for the future of Pod Match is how do we do more together? And whether that be in-person meetup groups like we've done, we've got a handful of those happening now, like all around the world, which is really cool. Like I want to see more of that, but also just virtual. Some people don't have the luxury of being around anybody. I had somebody on Pod Match like, hey, can you see if there's anyone else nearby? And I was like, sure, like, give me a postal code. ZIP code something a city. I'll be real. They told me where they live. I'm like, is this a place, you know, like, I looked it up and I was like, I don't think we have anyone a thousand miles away from like within a thousand miles from you there in the middle of nowhere in a country I can't even pronounce, I didn't know existed, which is cool. They're using pod match. I'm like, okay, well, we can't do all in-person groups because they're the only podcaster in a thousand mile radius, right? Like, um, for me, there's probably a podcaster three doors down from me, right? Like where I live. So, um, so my point is like, what we're really doubling down on pod match over this next, I'd say the next two years our initiatives are going to be all around. How do we form more community among podcast guests and hosts? How do we bring these individuals together for more things than just the recording? And that's something we're going to charge for. It's something to be included in Pod Match. Like we just know we want to bring more people together. From a community standpoint, I don't fully know what that looks like, but I'll share one thing specifically. We're going to launch something called collaborations inside of Pod Match, where it allows people to exchange different forms of things. So for example, I'm a podcaster and let's just say you're an author. And so what you can do is I can exchange, you can leave me a five star rating or rating review on Apple podcast, and I can go leave you a book review on Amazon and we'll let people do those type of swaps. And the thing is, we ask is, hey, you spend a little bit of time together first so you can get to know the person because maybe they haven't listened to your podcast, maybe they haven't read your book, but you can speak to the integrity of the individual behind it. And so we're teaching people that that's the way you can do this and still have it be an authentic review of a sort, because now you're speaking to the integrity and the quality of the person versus just just the product itself, right? Read this book. I liked it and I don't say that. No. Say, hey, I got to meet Josh. He's amazing. Here's what I really like about him. And that's a, that's a true authentic review. So we basically identified a whole bunch of different collaborations that you can do. And we're going to help facilitate that inside of Pod match. That is amazing. That's a. And once again, that to me, that so speaks to the mission that you guys have of just making it better for everyone. Um, truly, truly love that. As we start to wind down here, I've got my signature question that I always like to ask people that if you could give one piece of advice to a business owner or a person that's starting off as podcasting, you cannot say just hit record. Um, it's too easy to too. There are certain fruit that is hanging low enough that I'm not going to let you pick that. Um, what would be the piece of advice? And from this I'd like to say, what would be the, the mistake that you don't want a new podcaster to make? Yeah. So, um, this is a question that a lot of people will answer. Just hit record too. But even if you said I couldn't or I could answer that way, that's not what I'm going to say. Um, I think it takes more than that these days. Like I think we actually have to set a proper expectation. And so for me, it all begins with the individual who's going to start the show or even be a guest for that matter, whatever microphone you got to start with the reason that you're going to do it, the why. And I know there's that saying, start with why Simon Sinek made it famous. But the reality is we need to know why we're going to do it. Like, what's the point? And as soon as you figure that out, you have to think about next. And this is this is all together. This is not like do one or two of these things. You got to do these things all together. One, why are you doing it? Two, who is that really for? And you can't just say, oh, people with businesses, oh, people with this. Like that's not, that's not granular enough. Like you've got to get down to the core of it. No, like really, really. Who is that for? And I call this designing your avatar and I name my avatar, like, so everything I do at Pod Match is for Adam, like everything. So like I always think about Adam. Like I know how old Adam is. I know where Adam works. I know Adam's ambitions as a podcaster. I also know what Adam does to make money and to keep the lights on. And for fun, like, I've designed this whole fictitious character that I call my avatar because it ties directly to my why. Sometimes I feel like I forget the why. I can remember Adam. It's easy to remember a person, right? Yeah. Um, and so for me, like I first off again, I remember why I'm doing it. I remember who it's for. And the last thing is, what do you expect to gain from them and for them? So like from them and for them, what I mean by that is like, what are they ever going to pay you? If so, like how, why and what is it? What's the value that you're going to add to them for that? And I think that too many of us just don't think about that. So we're like, okay, I got my why. I got my person I'm serving. It's like, okay, are they ever going to open their wallets for you? And if so, what value are they getting in return? Identifying this stuff up front is so important. It will change. It will not be what you come up with initially, but you want to consistently be going back to this. I recommend every ninety days. For me, it's an every ninety day practice. I sit down and think, have I drifted from what I'm really doing? And the reality is we're never again. We're never going to get it right. But when you can really figure these things out and then hit record, I find that you can really start off on a on a really right foot that can be truly impactful for someone's life, including your own. Wow. Um, that I, that is the best answer that I ever received for that, that, I mean, it's the thorough, like really the why are you doing your podcast? But to a level that is not just the, oh, I like to hear myself talk. It's really a why are you doing your podcast? Uh, Alex, I truly appreciate this. Where should people find you? I mean, probably I'm willing to bet pod match, right? That's the spot. You know, actually, I have a specific page. It's pod Match.com forward slash free pod Match.com free. On that page, I just share like my nine favorite ideas. You can read that as a podcast guest, podcast host or an aspiring guest or host. Doesn't matter if you start it or not, but there are nine things that I've just learned over the years in podcasting have really helped me a lot. I don't ask for your email address or anything like that. I just want to be able to help. So those are my nine favorite. And again, that's pod Match.com slash free. Alex, thank you so much. I really appreciate the time today. Um, and I learned some more about pod match that I didn't even know yet. So awesome. Thank you so much. Uh, for everyone else, I am going to summarize some of this and I'll be back in a bit. Alex, it's just phenomenal to talk to you. to me. I'll make sure that all his information is in the show notes. I truly enjoyed talking with him and I knew ahead of time we had some similar values in how we go about things, but this really just really cemented that and once again made it a truly enjoyable experience. A couple of things that I want to go back and cover with this is podcasting is work. It is a journey. And we do need to look at the expectations with that. Alex, like you said, started with that first twelve or fifteen episodes recorded with his cell phone in his car and then was like, nope, I'm done with this. But then it was the second or third time. That's when he started to get the traction. He realized that he found an audience and he was talking to some very specific people. And there is a lot of very specific people. What do I mean by that? Well, when you think about it, when you look at your immediate friend group or whatever around you. Everyone's a little bit different, but there's always that commonality there. When you multiply that by all the people that are listening to podcasts now, that's not everyone, but let's say, I don't know, a tenth of a percent of the people like the subject that you're talking about. Well, right now it's anywhere between eighty and one hundred million people are listening to podcasts. Well, a tenth of a percent of that to the math, that's a lot of people. Make sure that you are talking directly to those people. Make sure that you are speaking to those people about what those people want to hear about. To me, that is the key that so many people miss. And it's one thing that I'm always trying to work on. I'm trying to make sure that I am conveying information to people about podcasting. They want to learn about podcasting and especially about podcasting and how it can help their business. Now, as we look, guests are one of the things that many businesses use for their podcasts. They're great. You get access to someone else's social media. To a certain extent. You get credibility by having another expert on that's willing to talk to you about things and tell you about things. Those are all really, really good things that come from this that can help your business. That's why we're talking about this, because we want to make sure that we are helping people that are podcasting to create that great content for their business. That's why we're doing this as he like, as he started to develop Pod Match, he saw some of the business problems that it was having. And to me, that was like as a business owner myself and as someone that has a business related podcast, I find that I found that one of the most interesting pieces of this is that he saw like what was happening to podcasters, and he wanted to see what he could do in his realm to help fix that issue on its own. To me, that's just awesome. Once again, it's it's about fixing those problems for us. It's about fixing the problems that you may have with your podcast or the questions that you may have on your podcast, the business aspect piece of it for him. Once again, the fact that they have given away a million dollars. Holy cow. That's I mean, to me, once again, the fact that they have given that back to the people that are the hosts, I have not received a million dollars. I have received some dollars from my pod match account. And it's been wonderful because once again, that isn't the thing that is supporting my podcast. That's not what's keeping the podcast going. But when I see a couple of dollars go into my PayPal account, I'm pretty good with that. It feels pretty good to have some guests on for that. Overall, the biggest take that I really got from Alex was it's about that guest host relationship and and how that is supposed to work together. So many people overlook that. And that's one of the things that I think is so difficult about it. We, we always talk about how there's people that come onto a show, they've never watched the show. They've never looked at the show. They have no idea who you are. They have no idea what you're going to sound like. They have no idea how you're going to present. I talk with my hands. People realize that if if I start talking with my hands and someone's scared right off the bat, well, then obviously they haven't done the research. As a guest, make sure you do your research as a host. Definitely make sure that you do your research. Even if you have a very specific niche, I'm pretty sure that you're going to be able to find a guest that you can work with on Pod Match. The nice thing about that, it's already filtered. It's already found, and you've already got a good idea who that person is because you can click on their socials, you can click on their podcasts, you can click on all those things to figure it out. To me, once again, know your why do the prep work? Two big things with it. I am looking forward to finding more people like Alex to talk about, because I want to make sure that we are educating you on how to do your podcast better. That all being said, do me a favor. Take care of yourself. And if you can, take care of someone else too. I will see you very, very soon.