When Your Podcast Becomes a Business (And How to Grow It Right)

What happens when your podcast stops being “just for fun”… and starts becoming a real business?

In this episode, Josh sits down with John Taylor to unpack the moment many podcasters don’t see coming  when audience growth, sponsorships, and real revenue enter the picture. If you’re a business owner or marketing manager using podcasting for marketing, this conversation will completely shift how you think about growth.

John shares how his first podcast went from casual conversations to attracting wineries, sponsors, and ultimately turning into a revenue-generating platform. But the real gold? His insights on how podcast discoverability has changed in the age of AI and why traditional keyword strategies are no longer enough.

You’ll learn why modern search is driven by problem-solving (not just keywords), how to position your podcast as part of your marketing stack, and what it actually takes to grow your audience consistently.

If you’re serious about brand building with podcasting, client attraction podcasting, and making your show work as a business asset this episode is for you.

 What You’ll Learn:

• When a podcast becomes a business (and how to recognize it)
• Why storytelling is the key to audience connection
• How AI is changing podcast discoverability
• The shift from keyword stuffing to problem-based search
• How to position your podcast inside your marketing funnel
• Why most podcasts struggle to grow and how to fix it

If you're looking to talk podcasting and get more information on how to make your podcast shine, our 30-minute "no pitch" podcast consultation is right for you!  Click the link to sign up for a time. 
https://pedalstomperproductions.as.me/no-pitch

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Want to start your own podcast?  Go here!

You can book time in our studios here 

Want to read about this? Check the blog! 

Transcript

0:00

I want to work this backwards. What happens when you start a podcast and suddenly realize, oh, that's a business. That is what we're going to talk about this week. John, thanks for coming on today. I really appreciate it. You like your history going back to the pairs with life podcast where you combined, I guess I would say, I don't want to say wine and potpourri because people are going to. But you talked about varying topics. I mean, you talked about life, hence life in the title. And I loved it. When did you realize that, Holy cow, I'm a podcaster. Oh, wow. That's a great question because, you know, it was my first podcast and, um, uh, you know, I partnered up with, uh, with another, another co-host and it was her first podcast too. And we'd never done this before, but we thought, you know what? We're good talkers. We love wine. We've got a good subject here. Let's just give it a shot and see what happens. And so it was somewhere around episode twenty five, maybe even thirty, where we kind of looked at each other and said, you know, we've got a groove going here. And, um, we actually started getting our first feedback from the audience, right? We had people responding to us on social media saying, oh, I was in a similar situation or, um, you know, oh, I, I would have paired up that circumstance with this different wine. And then we started getting calls from, from winemakers and, um, from wineries, uh, saying, hey, talk to our winemaker or come to our winery and do your podcast. Uh, we're like, oh, oh, okay, we'll move out of the kitchen then. And, Um, so yeah, yeah. And then, you know, it wasn't until around episode one hundred, I mean, past episode one hundred when we actually started to get sponsorship and, um, and then that sponsorship kind of took off and then we started really making some actual money. And, you know, then there was another revelation of, oh, this can be more than just fun and free wine and this is my job now. Yeah, exactly. Um, so, you know, in the end, we were really, really lucky with that podcast. We kind of, we kind of hit a hit to third base, not, not quite a home run, but a third base, uh, you know, on our first podcast out. And, um, I guess that's one of the reasons why I'm still in the industry is like, oh, look at me. I'm so good at this, you know? Yeah, I love that because to me, the, the, the thing that I see with it is the, the podcast that really start to go well are the ones that start with this. A, this is an idea I'm passionate about. And then they build on it. And then all of a sudden they realize they've made a connection. But it's that connection that you made with the audience because it is, it's right. It's life and wine. And there's a lot of people that I mean, most people enjoy life. Um, there's quite a few people out there that enjoy wine also. So combining those two. Yes. I mean, it, it actually, it makes sense. And it's one of those things where as soon as you started describing it, I was like, oh yeah, duh, that that makes perfect sense. Right? Yeah. And you kind of hit the nail on the head because you eventually through repetition, through just doing it over and over and refining the process. You, you hit your stride, you hit your voice, your niche, and you're like, ah, this is what we actually do. And you know, I think especially with narrative podcasts, if you can also sort of find the pain points and how to, how to solve them and or at least empathize with them. And you can do it in a storytelling kind of way. Then you sort of, you've hit all, all the whack a mole, you know, that really is what makes, you know, a podcast, especially narrative podcast, you know, resonate with an audience. Um, I had, I had the good fortune and I won't go down the rabbit hole too far here, but had the really good fortune of having a screenwriting class. The one and only time, uh, this, uh, gentleman, um, did a taught a taught a screenwriting class. And, uh, Robert McKee, Bob McKee and Bob McKee is considered like the authoritative person on storytelling. And at the beginning of the class, He asked all of us, why do people go to movies? Why do people go to movies? And we all gave our various really bad answers. And he finally said, no, people go to movies to see how other people solve their problems. And it was such a just a, you know, seminal moment for me that I've really sort of carried that over into every kind of creative venture. And I think, I think it goes for podcasting as well. People listen to podcasts to hear how other people solve their problems. And, you know, if you if you do that, if you kind of focus on that and all good stories are about that, you know, I think that really helps to, you know, resonate with the audience. Oh, that's a, that's a phenomenal point. That's beautiful. I, I, I absolutely love that. I feel like we should hang up and stop while we're ahead. But I, I've been a great podcast. Josh, thanks so much. Right. I, I've got, I've got more questions with that. And it's what's interesting is I do see that too. I mean, I see it. It wasn't always apparent to me. But you saying that really does that appeals to me. The other piece that I see with that is kind of like, look, there's that. I'm sure ten people in the class said to be entertained and all that other stuff. If you can solve problems and entertain people at the same time, by golly. Yeah. Um, you've just first off, you've just described HD, HGTV to most people. I mean, you're trying to solve their problems and look, they're entertained about all these houses. They're never going to be able to afford. Right. Um, but yeah, no, you've got both of those things there. From there, your company's name is act three, correct? Correct it. You've got something that I really like how you've termed it. You've call it your listener discoverability optimization. Now, I said that intentionally slow. So I didn't trip over it because a lot of syllables there. It's a terrible phrase. It really is. And if you can think of anything better, we'll take it. No, Eldo, I like it. Um. How does. And my question with that is, is for like, let's say for the marketing manager, that's, that's they're frustrated with stagnant growth. I mean, and we've all seen it where it's the, okay, we got one new podcast subscriber this week. We got one new podcast subscriber. Oh, this week we got two, right? Don't worry. Next week you're going to make up for that with none. Um, how how does Eldo differ from the traditional like keyword chasing that so many people have done over the years to be like, look, here's your list of keywords that you need to figure out where you're going to say in the podcast. Yeah, yeah, that's a great question because we were all sort of brought up on keyword chasing and even the changes that AI has brought in the past, you know, eighteen months. Yeah. Um, are still somewhat based around that keyword chase, but it's, it's just a little bit different now because the paradigm for search itself, which is sort of where we have to kind of take a step back and come from the paradigm of search itself has changed. You know, and instead of us going into Google and thinking of the three words that are going to get us to where we want to be, you know, and that's a list of websites that may or may not contain the information we're looking for. Now we're going into Google because we can use Gemini there or into ChatGPT or whatever, and we are explaining our problem in detail. Okay. Especially if you're on ChatGPT, you're like, okay, I want to bake a cookie, but it's got to be soft on the inside, crunchy on the outside. I want it to be gluten free. I'm looking for a frosting. Excuse me, that tastes wonderful, but has half the calories of your normal frosting. And also, I don't want this to take forever. And I kind of hate baking to begin with. So it's this. You are just presenting your problem to this. That's a big problem. Yeah. And, and it comes up with all these. So it's out there now looking for how do I solve this? So the search itself changed. And then finding the answers changed because now your little AI bot is out there looking for this information. And it's a predictive model, right? It's going, is this what you want to hear? Is this what you want to hear? Is this what you want to hear? So it's looking for summarized information and it's looking for, um, a, uh, a repetition of that information, a reinforcement of that information, right? So if it sees what it thinks is the right answer here, here, here and here, and those four sources reinforce them, reinforce this answer and are summarized properly for clarity. Then you've dramatically increased your chances of that information being served back as the answer. And so that's kind of the, that is sort of the philosophy that that we take that to increase your discoverability, which is what's going to get you an audience member, right. They have to find you. Okay? They have to. They've got a problem. Your podcast is part of the marketing stack. It's not it's not the whole funnel. It's just part of the marketing stack. And, and they want to find the information that you are an authority on. Then you have to be optimized on all those platforms to create that reinforcement. Um, so that's sort of the approach we take. We're like, all right, let's look at how you're presented on your, excuse me, your podcast directory, how you're presented on your YouTube channel, how are you presented on your LinkedIn? How are you presented on your social media? Are you taking advantage of all the different ways those algorithms work? Have you created marketing copy that plays into how those algorithms work, right? YouTube is a search engine. That's what it is. It is the second largest search engine owned by the first largest search engine. And if you don't treat it like a search engine, you are not using it to its highest and best use. And if you're writing your copy, your description, your podcast description, the same way for YouTube as you are for Spotify, then you're not taking advantage of either of those. So that's sort of that's, that's kind of the philosophy behind the approach. And then if you are optimizing all these platforms, you have built a foundational layer of discoverability because this is all organic, this is not paid or anything like that. So you've created this foundational layer of discoverability where you are taking advantage of everything at your disposal to be out in front with your branded messages, your key differentiators, your core concepts right up front, ready to be found. That's a beautiful, I love that. And to me, it's it's wonderful too, because that gives us that differentiator that everyone's looking between like AI that whether you call it g e o, a, e, o, whatever you want to call it, whatever, whatever, whatever acronym people are using this week because, you know, we're all acronyms anymore. Absolutely. Um, when you look at the difference between SEO and like geo things of that nature, that's, it's, it's interesting because that to me is once again, it's that differentiator of, and we're probably both old enough to, to remember when keywords where you just stuffed everything with as many words that were as remotely related as you could, right? And you thought, yeah, this is good and you just paid someone to sit there and type. Um, yes. And, and, you know, it's so, it's so interesting you would say that too, because we, we really have to sort of unlearn that. Um, yes, there are so many services out there that will say, hey, I'm going to, you know, optimize your YouTube channel and I'm going to get you all these views and I'm going to do it by by putting hashtag MrBeast in all of your videos, right? And, and nothing will kill you more because yeah, YouTube will say, oh, this is MrBeast related here. I will serve it up and then nobody clicks on it because it's not MrBeast related. And then the algorithm goes, oh, suppress this, I was wrong and now you're dead. And, and so this whole keyword stuffing thing, we have to, we have to extricate ourselves from that and start thinking in terms of what is precisely different about what I do. What is laser focused about what separates me from my competitor podcast? Because again, people are searching that way now. They want the crispy on the outside, gooey on the inside, gluten free, half calorie cookie. And if that's what you are, then that's what you need to say you are. And that's how you will be found. Have you ever tried making that cookie? As a matter of fact, the co-host of, uh, of Paris with life, uh, was a was a gluten free girl. And so we were constantly trying these, these different kind of gluten free recipes. And boy, were they horrible. That is just that is a horrible cookie right there. I'm sorry. I like the cookie you described is one of those things where I'm like that. I mean, that could be like, that's a better mousetrap. Um, if I could have a half calorie cookie. I mean, first off, it would just mean I would eat twice as many. That's it, that's it, that's it. Exactly. Yeah, one hundred percent. Yeah. That being said, it's one of the cool things. And like, this is this is an alignment thing that you and I both have is we talk about, um, speaking directly to the one person that is your audience because once again, if you speak to everyone, you're speaking to no one, all those cliche marketing things. Um, and we want to make sure that people are looking for the right customer, not all the customers. Because once again, if you invite everyone into your store, probably only five to ten percent of them are actually going to buy anything. You're probably going to get another five or ten percent in your store that are going to shoplift. Um, and the other five, five to ten percent are just going to eat the gluten free cookies and be like, this business is terrible and leave. Um, that being said, like, how do you approach people about when someone, when a business comes to you and talks about, hey, we want to do a podcast because we get this all the time. I'm sure you do too. The like our approach is to say, look, this is a long term return on investment. This is, this is not this is not the thing that's out there that's hooking people next week. This is the thing that you're building. Like, how do you define that conversion growth? How do you define that return on investment for them over the time that they're going to be doing that? Yeah, yeah. Again, that's just you just hit on all the million dollar questions, don't you? That's um, you really, you know, it's about expectation setting in a lot of ways, it's just you have to. When a you know, most of my clients come to me after they've created a podcast and, you know, they're twenty, thirty, fifty, maybe one hundred episodes into it and they're like, how come I'm not growing? How come I'm not converting what's happening here? And so yes, there has to be that expectation setting of your podcast is simply a part of your full of your whole marketing funnel. It's a part of your marketing stack. And, you know, we deal with B2B and B2C podcasters mostly. And so, so you know, exactly. You're like, okay, you know, let's look at the rest of the stack. Let's see where your podcast fits in. Are you trying to build authority and trust, or is this a sales tool to inform, you know, current customers? Are you targeted to, you know, what is it? What is the rest of your marketing tell you about your customer and about your competition, are you addressing pain points? You know, just all of these, all of these marketing one hundred and one things that everyone. You know, that, that anyone has to consider. And you know, it's like you say, the podcast is not. It's not the cash register. It's it, it's not the, the beginning and end. It's not the alpha and omega of, of sales. You know, it's this piece that lives within the funnel and maybe it's close to the top, maybe it's close to the bottom. But you know, it's to me, it's major purpose is information authority and trust. And, and yeah, so that's the expectation you have to, to set up. Now there's all these things that you can do to track conversions and to, you know, to, to look at analytics and say, this is the topics that people are resonating with and these are the ones that are not, and this is what's working in your funnel, and this is what's not working. And you need to come optimize this platform because you're not taking it, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. All those things. But that expectation still has to be. It's just a piece of the pie. It's not the whole thing. No, it's funny because I, we have found that so many people like have this expectation of, I start a podcast next week, I'm Joe Rogan and I'm like, no, no, no, no. And I, there's a lawyer in this part of Ohio that is famous for he actually has a contract with a billboard company that if they have any leftover stock, he just gets it at like a dirt cheap price. Wow. So this lawyer is all over Cleveland and I'm, I mean, all over all over the place. And once again, I tell people, I'm like, look at the number of touch points. The podcast is that it's another touchpoint. It's another piece in that funnel. Where does it sit in there? And once again, if people do eventually click on you and then they go there and they hear you and see you, they're like, oh, hey, I kind of like that person. Um, they know you. They once again, they walk into the door having a good idea who you are rather than, okay, I have no idea what to expect from this person. So huge, huge difference with that with that. And your couple of years of podcasting here, um, we'll never put numbers on stuff like that. Um, we're, we're both, we're not long, not long enough that we're experienced, but not that experienced. Right? Is, um, you've, you've mentioned before, one of the things that you learned is patience. Um, so many marketing managers like we need viral. And I'm like, so you get that? I mean, it's it, it's one of those things where it goes up and then three days later, you are back in the basement. And the problem is with that when you get that one viral post, we just had one, um, go out recently that's like one hundred and sixty thousand views. And I'm like, fantastic. This is amazing. And as soon as that happens, you're like, and the next post goes out and it gets three hundred views, you're like, what the hell? Um, like the biggest thing, like when you said you've learned patience in that, what's a good story when you're like, look, we just have to buckle up and stay on here, um, knowing that we're doing the right thing to get through that. Is there a, is there a story that you've got like, hey, look, we just once again, we're weathering the storm, batten down the hatches, buckle up and let's get through this. Yeah, absolutely. So I'll go back to Paris with life because I mean, yeah, when we talked about, you know, getting up to episode around thirty and you're like, oh, wow, we're serious podcasters now. That's what we that's what we do. Um, yeah, in between episodes about fifty to seventy five. You're just in the grind. You're just grinding it out and, and you're like, where do we find our next guest and what is our next idea? We just had seventy ideas. How do we come up with ideas? Seventy one what do we talk about next? And you're just I mean, yeah, I get it. You're just grinding it out at that point. And yeah, that's that's hard. And you know, to me, I think that when you reach that point where it looks like, you know, you're not getting maybe the kind of success you want and maybe you had some moment of success before, maybe that viral moment you're talking about that you kind of have to just, you take a step back and look at the original reason why you did this. You know, what was the original point of doing this? What was the original idea? Why? Why did we start this? And you know what? What is our, you know, and what that might force you to do is say, oh, well, you know what? Our goals have changed actually, and what we've developed now is different from what we started with. And here's where it's fundamentally different. Okay, well, how does that fit in the business now? How does that fit with the goals of the business that this podcast might be supporting? And so I think that, yeah, when you're in that grind period and it doesn't look like anything's like really happening, you just take that self-assessment of, okay, why am I here? And, and has anything changed and have our goals changed? And it kind of like, okay, it kind of like puts you back on track. And, you know, even if that track might be going in a little different direction than it initially started out as. Speaking of different directions, what a brilliant segue for me. Thank you. I read it off this card. Josh. It was right, right, right, right. You're really just in the next room, right? Uh, future plans. I mean, like you guys I know are looking at building that ongoing audience growth. That's one of your big things. But with that, with automation flooding the market with content, and we're just going to call it content, I'm not going to call it different names. We're just going to call it content. Um, how, how are like, what are you looking at for the unique proposition of podcasting? And what do you see as that for the next, let's say six, eight months or maybe three, five years? So that's, that's such an interesting question too, because the unique, the, I think that podcasting is really just getting started. Um, that, you know, it's one of those where it's a huge question. We're in a we're in a massive media transition environment. It's yes. You know, that's the polite way to say it. Yeah. And, you know, the, the fact that we have bandwidth that we can just throw around. It's like, oh, yeah, I can do video now. I'll just do video. And that won't change anything because, you know, I don't have to pay a trillion dollars for it, you know, like, like we had to do twenty years ago. And I'll do three podcasts. I will do seven podcasts. I will do all this other kind of content. I mean, the, the tools and the environment has changed so dramatically that I think we're just sort of getting started with where podcasting is going to go. Um, And, um, you know, there's, there, there are some, there are some cyclical things, some everything old is new again. Sure. Again, we're not going to talk about how old we are here. But back in the nineties there was um there was daytime. Yes, there was daytime TV. There was Montel Williams and Sally Jessy Raphael and the Ricki Lake Show. And I remember Phil Donahue. There you go. There you go. And that was immensely popular. And then it all went away. And why did it all go away? Well, that that content that the, the, the desire for those shows didn't go away. The medium went away. The, the way that we ingest content, you know, switching to online and these little phones that we watch everything on, that's what changed. And now what we're seeing are these companies like Netflix and YouTube and even Spotify all going back to. We're hiring podcasters. We want podcasters and all those podcasters are is daytime TV. It's daytime TV in a different format and a and a different distribution network. So it hasn't landed yet. I mean, it's still the sky's the limit. We're going to have to see how this is all going to fall out. It's interesting because one of the things that I often refer to is the, the YouTube thing, how I believe it's like seven hundred years of content is uploaded to YouTube every month. Oh my God. Right. And I joke with people, I'm, I'm just south of Cleveland, Cleveland, Ohio, and I always talk. Growing up, we had three, five, eight, nineteen and if the clouds are right, we got channel forty three also. Um, you had five options. If one, if like all five of those sucked, like on Sunday morning, you just kind of stuck with what sucked the least. Um, now with seven hundred years uploaded every day. It's like there's. You don't have to deal with suc. You just go on to the very next thing and you just keep scrolling until you find something you eventually like. And that to me is. It's something funny because I. In the class that I teach, I always ask people, I'm like, who thinks attention spans are shot? And of course, everyone raises their hand. And I said, great, who in here has binged Netflix for six hours? And of course, they all raised their hand begrudgingly again, like, oh. And I'm like, it's not attention spans. It's our tolerance for garbage. Oh, that's a great, great perspective. And that to me is that's why, like, there's people like us that are making sure people are putting out good content for the right people. Um, because there's room for that. Um, it's a little bit tougher to get discovered through some of the, the muddy waters that are out there, but there's, there's, there's a ton of room for it because there's a desire for it, um, there, because there's a ton of really bad, bad, bad stuff out there. Yeah. And that's why there's people like us to help make better stuff. That being said. We're done with bad content, right? We don't want to see any more of it. That's right. The question that I always like to ask is, if you can give one piece of advice to business owner, marketer, someone that's doing a podcast. You cannot say or thinking about starting a podcast and you cannot say press record. Um, way too easy of an answer. We're like, we need actual answers here. Not the, not the lame one. Um, what's your piece like? What's that one piece of advice someone could use in their podcast to get better? What's your story? I would, I would fall back every single time on what's your story? What, what's your story? What is it you want to say? Tell me your story. And story. Story. Who's the protagonist? Who's the antagonist? What did the protagonist have to overcome in order to defeat the antagonist? What was the outcome after that? Like story? Story? Tell me your story. Um, if the number one, it's it's been the truth for five thousand years. If if at least. Okay. You tell me your hero's journey and and how it and and what happened. And if you can do that and you can do that as the second assistant manager, managing marketer of Joe's supply chain business, then you've got a podcast because that's to me, that's everything. I love that. Speaking of stories, where can people find yours? Where should people go find you, John? Um, people can find me at, uh, a couple different ways. You can go to podcast marketing dot site s I t e podcast marketing dot site. Um, and that's, that's typically where we hang out. That's where you can see all of our products and services. You can contact me directly, John at agency.com. And that's T the number three agency dot com. And if you email me, if you email John at the number three agency.com and tell me the name of your podcast, we'll do a free strategic analysis for you. We'll take a deep dive into your podcast. We'll tell you what we see in terms of your visibility, your discoverability, how you're optimizing platforms. Be happy to give your listeners a free, uh, complete strategic analysis of their podcast. That's amazing. Really appreciate that. And John, I really appreciate the time today. This has been a lot of fun, educational, and a good time. Well, thanks, Josh, I really appreciate it as well. Wonderful for everyone out there listening, I have made some notes that I'm going to summarize. I'll be right back. I'm really grateful for John coming on today. That to me was really I mean, it was insightful. And it's one of the things that I truly love about when I have another podcast producer on because I'm able to like, first off, I get some validation on some of the things that I do. And there's always a twist. There's so many of us that do so many things just that little bit different. We're pointed in a slightly different direction. We're aimed at a different audience. And to me, it's as podcast producers, we're as diverse as podcasts are really, there are so many podcasts out there. There's quite a few podcasts producers out there. And when you start to look at that, you start to realize that, hey, there's a fit. One of the things that I always like to say is it's a quote from a podcaster that we have that, uh, they do an automotive racing podcast, but he's also involved with just regular automotive repair. And his response is, there's plenty of cars to work on. There's, we're not going to run out of broken cars. We just have to make sure that we're working on the ones that we're meant to work on. And to me, I, I truly, truly love that with, with the listener discoverability optimization. Once again, what a mouthful. But I really like their angle on that in terms of like, we are figuring out where exactly we need to be for each platform. Like how do we need to, to pinpoint this? The other thing is, is they're looking at the gaps in things. Where is there a gap in information in the market and how can we help our clients fill that gap to me as as AI starts to take more and more things over the answers that people are looking for like the gluten free, soft, chewy, like half calorie cookie. That's an amazing example because that's what people are typing in it. It's I think back to how I used to search for things. I used to type in baked potato recipe. Now I'm just like, how long should I be putting the baked potato in the oven for? And what are some ingredients that I may like? Knowing that the AI knows I've got some dietary restrictions? It's it's a totally different game. So why are we playing the keyword stuffing game still of just like, hey, I need to cover these six specific points. We need to cover the, the, we need to answer questions instead of just saying, hey, how many times can I mention this word? It's how can I answer the questions that people are asking, because that is how you are going to get discovered. That is how you are going to get found. Additionally, when someone does ask that question, or someone may have that question in the back of their mind, if and when they find you, guess what? You've already answered some of those basic questions. And when I think back to is like the FAQs that everyone used to post on their website, those were keys for keywords and they used to be done specifically for like keyword stuffing. Now your, your, your podcast really can be that FAQ page where you are answering those questions in depth, in detail. You're really filling in all of the, all the blanks on what people need to know. And because you're doing this with video, at least if you're working with us, you're doing this with video because you're doing this with video, you're finding that way to connect with people. And you can actually afford the time to go deeper. Because remember before, when it was in print, someone would have to read that and people wouldn't hang on for that. Now, as long as you're giving out great information, people will still hang on for that. That to me is one of the biggest keys in that. That all being said, I truly once again, I'm so glad I had John on. Um, he's going to be one that we will probably revisit if you've got a question for us for him, by all means, let me know. We'd love to hear it. Do me a favor. Take care of yourself. If you can't take care of someone else too. I will see you very, very soon.