What Business Leaders Can Learn from Higher Education Podcasting | Neil & Jen

Can competitors become collaborators? According to Neil and Jen from the Continuing Studies podcast, the answer is a resounding yes.

Recorded live at Higher Ed PodCon, this conversation explores how two podcast production company owners built a successful podcast together while continuing to operate separate businesses. Along the way, they share valuable insights into the unique world of higher education podcasting, how universities measure podcast success, and why podcasting is becoming an increasingly important communication and educational tool.

You'll discover:

• Why collaboration can outperform competition.
• How higher education institutions use podcasts differently than traditional businesses.
• The unique ROI behind alumni, faculty, and student podcasts.
• Why podcasts are becoming part of classroom instruction and scholarly research.
• How podcasting is helping educators adapt in the age of AI.
• Lessons every business owner can learn about building trust, authority, and long-term relationships through podcasting.

Whether you're a business owner, marketer, educator, or podcaster, this episode offers practical insights into using podcasting as a strategic communication tool not just a marketing channel.

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Transcript

0:00

I am at a different place than normal today. If you can see me, then you've obviously realized that I am at higher ed pod Con. Yes, the podcasting convention for those that are in higher education, because I work with Cuyahoga Community College, and today I am talking with not one, but two people that run two separate podcast companies, but they also host a podcast together. This is entertaining as all get out. You are going to want to stay tuned. Neil Jen Hello. Yes, this is our first interview. Like no being like, no one's ever interviewed us together. Together? No. Unless you've been doing solo interviews, I don't know. This is good. Are you cheating on me with other people? This is my. My other. It was my other co-host. Whoa, whoa. This is okay. So. Yeah. Um, now that we've already started the fight. So you've got twenty years in performance marketing, things of that nature. I believe, I mean, so we're, we're filming this just to give people context at higher ed pod con, um, I just sat back there and did the control board for two of your guys's episodes. It was great. Thank you. Hey, no, I was you guys are awesome. Um, it's the reason why I asked you guys to come in here. I mean, truly, it is. I believe in one of the shows you mentioned. You have a background in radio, correct? Yes. Neil was behind me one one, I think in all of the episodes. I don't think we're gonna be co-hosts after this. It's like a drinking game. It's it's our, it's, it's the drinking game. Drinking game. It's the drink. I love it. So when Jen says she used to be in radio, you're just you're just jealous. I am actually. But I've learned a lot from your radio background. Look at that. Look at that look. I once again, I am pulling the pin and tossing the grenade and just walking away. And that's how continuing studies ended after the show, right? Right. This will be their last one hundred eighty something. We got to get to one hundred. Yeah. Yeah. It may be solo shows, but with that you guys both have successful podcast production agencies and yet you do a podcast together, which is counterintuitive to ninety nine percent of business owners out there to be like, hey, you do some of the same thing that I do. We're going to go ahead and do that together about like, like, why, how did this start? Like what happened here? Something like something either went really well or something went askew for the two of you to be like, yeah, let's do this together. We. We met, we met, uh, we met at podcast Movement in Dallas, I think five years ago, four or five years ago. Uh, and, um, we had each mutually met someone else at the show and then from Cleveland from Cleveland, which is funny. Yeah. Yeah. And yeah, we're not making this up. We're not making this up. And he was like, and he was like, oh, and you're both from Vancouver. Oh, and you work on University higher Education podcast. Oh, you said to me you need to meet Jen and then Jen, you need to meet Neil. And we met each other and I'd been thinking about doing this podcast and I was, and, um, I was like, Jen. And then I found out Jen's background and all that kind of stuff and thought, well, why don't we just do this? Her background in radio. Yeah, her background in radio, actually, that is true. Um, and that's why he wanted to do podcast plus Jen, Jen edits as well too. So she does all of our editing. So Kylie kind of our producer sort of takes an early run at it. And then, and then Jen engineers it. And so and so that was it kind of worked for the two of us to, you know, to do it together. And we work on projects. Some projects together as well. And so, and we also have our separate companies too. That makes sense. Now I'm going to ask, do you have the same story? Yeah. I guess you can corroborate most of what he said. It's very similar to like, how I envisioned it. He's not like embellishing it. All I know is that we did go to a bar together, and I remember that. And we celebrated my birthday because at midnight it was your birthday and you held a candle like one of those, like, was it a candle or a torch? It was like you guys all had like, I don't know, sparklers. So just, just so I can make this weird. Some people like have drunk times and they end up with babies. You guys ended up with a podcast. We did. And we lived like surprisingly close to each other because I remember we were in Dallas, we were probably like one out of five Canadians in a sea of thousands of Americans. Yeah. And the fact that we found each other and we're both pretty nice collaborative people, I would say, because like he even said, the guy matches us. He's like, you guys might be competitors. And I was like, I don't care. I just want to meet Neil. And then we went for our first coffee back in Vancouver. Um, and I don't know, we just never we never saw it as competition. Like we do a lot of the same stuff. And we do use a lot of sometimes the same team members as well because like some of his staff has worked on my stuff and I don't know, it's just kind of worked out. Yeah. It's funny, I find that with a lot of podcasts, production companies because there's, I mean, I know there's going to be things that we do very differently than you guys do and things that we cover that you guys aren't going to want to because there's some stuff, there's stuff that I truly enjoy about podcasting. There's other stuff where I'm like, I want absolutely nothing to do with that whatsoever. So no, I totally understand that. Neil, you've like higher ed pods dot com like instead of like, let's just put some podcasts out there and maybe let's make a list of the top five. No, it's sixteen hundred. Yeah. And growing. We've got a whole bunch we're going to put into it. Remember when there was one. Yeah. Yeah. We're and I think what we like through working with some, uh, university higher education podcast, we just sort of identified there's an opportunity for discovery, but also, um, you know, to, uh, to put them all together and create this library, which we have and we've got a bunch of plans for it actually. So we, we want, we like, we think we can create sort of an, our next thing we're going to do is try to create an editorial layer. So, uh, as well as a listening app component to it as well too. So that's kind of where we're, where we've gotten it. But yeah, it's been a fun project. What's interesting is so like, we work with a lot of companies in terms of that marketing return on investment. When you're talking to and working with colleges, universities, there's a different it's not like a normal like, hey, transactional business. You're asking someone to be at come for four years or whether to get like, what's the difference in approach between. And I'm going to ask this of both of you. Like, because I'm sure both of you have different approaches for this. Like what's the different approach with a higher education facility or an education facility than your standard like automotive shop down the road or a lawyer? You go first, Jen. Yeah, because you just don't want to answer the question. No, I'm going to have a better answer. So I just thought I'd let you go first. Well, right off the bat, I think it's just the process. And there's way many more hands that the podcast has to go through. So when you're working with a higher education institute. They don't really want you to obviously make their name sound bad, so they're really worried. Even even though they have a hand in the process. But it usually has to go through like seven people to check it before it gets published. Opposed to when I've worked with other companies in different spaces, there's usually maybe only one person checking or like I've had it to where they're like, cool, you just do it for us and we put it up and we trust you and don't break that trust. Sure. That would be the difference for me. Makes sense. What about for you, Neil? Well, it's the reason for being for the podcast. The mission, if you will. And, uh, predominantly, uh, the vast majority of higher education podcasts that we work with or have come across are more mission driven. They're, they're, they're not, um, you know, they're not revenue focused. Uh, they're not there to make money. And I think the difference with, uh, branded pod, if they're a branded podcast, like your example is it's not about building the brand or a sales funnel or something like that. Yeah. From a university perspective, it is, you know, the brand is important and they are trying to take their brand out to a wider community in some cases, but it's still not technically a branded podcast. And so there's, I think that is what, to me, the big difference is that reason for being. I'm glad you had time to think of that answer because it was pretty good. And now you can see why their cohosts. Like when you talk about that though, what is the return on investment for them with the podcast? It really depends. Uh, uh, so, uh, like, let's take an alumni podcast, for example, that's not necessarily about constant growth because your alumni, if it's, you know, it's focused on alumni, your alumni is only as much as your alumni. The audience is only as much as the alumni is. Right. And so, uh, in, in, in a lot of cases, an alumni podcast is more about engagement with with the alumni. So an ROI metric for alumni podcast might be more. This is a way that we can, we can we can make a connection with a hard to connect alumni, alumni, alumnus. So like we've been trying to get a hold of, of Sarah. She's like this great CEO, she's really busy and she hasn't really, you know, haven't been able to. Our engagement officer hasn't been able to connect with her. Let's get her on the podcast. And so it's not about how many people listen to it. It's about that initial connection point. And then from there, the relationship can start and off they go. It could be, um, it could be like from a, from a faculty. And so then that could be just about, um, taking the great research that's happening in that, in that school and sharing that and, and sharing that wider. It could be a student podcast, which is, which is, you know, part of the part of their part of their process, part of their learning. Or that could be a student process, which is a podcast, which is about learning how to podcast. So there's all different, you know, you could, could be, could and pedagogy, it could be part of the syllabus. You've been waiting to use that word, haven't you? Yeah, I like that word. Could be part of that. Could be part of the syllabus. You know, the one, the one. Josh. The one that's really interested me a lot as of late. Um, we've had a few more episodes about it lately is, is podcast as a scholarly output. And I think that's a really interesting, that's a really interesting thing that's happening in academia right now as, um, you know, the currency of academia, if you will, is built around the monograph, the written, the written thing. So podcasting sort of lives in this digital output, if you will, which is not a monograph. And so I think, you know, academia is struggling with, well, how is, how is, how is my scholarly output. How do I credit for my scholarly output? How does that how does that add to my potential tenure? How does that add to. You know, I have tenure. I'm expected to, um, have, have, you know, research every year, you know, so that's, that's another really interesting thing. And we're seeing that's going on right now in higher education, podcasting, you seeing the same things or you see something different. I stole them all. Well, I was about to say to me, the dynamic that you two have is great because it's, it's the same thing for like Chrissy and I in the business fix. It's, it's different. It's you, you see things the same way, but you get there from very different points. Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah. I've seen a lot when he, he has seen, but I've seen some other ones too. And I've had they're not necessarily podcasts that I've worked on, but I've talked to other institutions I do other podcasts for. And it was interesting because some of the teachers will also have their own podcasts. But the purpose for it is not necessarily to obviously go, to the masses. It's stuff for their costumes, but even they'll go one step further and get the students to create their own podcasts. Even though the cost has nothing to do with communication, it's because they said it's a way that they can combat AI, because it's fine for AI to write things for you, but you still need to comprehend it and be able to verbally say it out. So then they're able to see who understood the coursework and who did not. So I thought that was pretty cool. Yeah, that's a great way to do it because once again, how do we just like, how do we get information out is changed maybe a little bit in the past couple of months a little bit. And there's someone that Neil and I met, um, from Stanford, another conference that she was a professor and she would get the kids like she taught podcasting, like the art of storytelling. And they, again, they had nothing to do necessarily with going on to be broadcasters or anything like that. They were just taking this as an extra course. But what she would get them to do is make a podcast and tell their story. And she said without her telling them anything, they would actually go like, take their podcast after they finish their project and use it to apply for jobs and get a job with it because it's like the new resume. Yeah. So I thought that was really neat too. Yeah, that's a great way to do it. This is why you have me that in your radio background, you're also radio or you're broadcasting. Know that you were you got great radio voice. Thank you. But no, I have no background in that. You're just natural. My career path was, like I said, it was like someone was drunk. I started in performance automotive. I went to regular automotive. I went to agriculture. I went to trucking, to podcasting. Yeah. That's natural. Yeah. Yeah. You can see that. You can see how the steps work. You see the progression. Yeah, yeah. You can, it's just there's like a gap in there of like, where the hell did this come from, you guys? I mean, you mentioned eighty eight episodes and I can't believe. You're like, wow, we're old now. We didn't break up like we've made eighty eight episodes. Oh my God. Right. We've made it. We've we finally made it. That being said, you guys have like, you've interviewed a wide range of people, like academics that are running like true crime and cold case shows. I mean, you, you've talked to people that are just purely in like the academic realm that just want to release papers. There's a gamut of like a wide spectrum because everyone thinks it's just going to be teachers. Mhm. What's been the most surprising thing that you guys have pulled out of this? And I'll let you start on this one, Jen. Oh, why? Because Neil can make a better answer up after me. Do you want him to go first? Yeah. Okay, Neil. Go ahead, go ahead, go first. I think the thing that surprises me is I just keep being surprised by new, by new, by new ideas. Like I just it's like, oh, wow, that's, that's a great, that's a great way to, to use a podcast. That's a great use of it. That's a great, that's a, you know, I think, I think that's one of the things, um, I think another one is, um, there's the output of the podcast and I ran through a bunch of reasons. Yeah, a few minutes ago, but then there's the actual practice of podcasting, I guess Jen was kind of talking about it just now, but like, it's like the, the benefit to doing a podcast, which is beyond what the output is. And it's, and there's so many of these intangibles and there's so many of these useful things, I think. So that that always surprises me too, of just like, just like this, like it's more than just that output. It's just like there's so much more of a benefit to doing it just by doing it. Sure. Mine would be the topics because there's things that I didn't think could be a podcast. Yeah. Like, like we talked to Yale, I think it was in our early set of our episodes and they had a pod publishing. Yeah. And it was just about art books. And there was no visual like the big, huge coffee table, beautiful art books. No, there's a podcast about it and there's no video podcast. There's no video to it. And they just talk about art books. And it's a very popular podcast, architecture books. And again, like coffee table books that you would, that you would, you would think you would need to see. And it's a great podcast and it really makes. And once you kind of dig into it, it really makes sense. I but see my brain instantly goes when you say these big coffee table books. Kramer on Seinfeld, talking about the coffee table book that he was making, which is a whole nother thing. But if you go, I forgot about that episode Yes. In that, like so many schools. I mean, there's big, big brands involved with these. Yeah. In working with them, I know you said it has to go through the seven layers of approval. Mhm. Podcasting in a lot of cases is, I don't want to say considered risky. How do you feel that they approach that in a, in a way that makes it so it's not risky to the brand? Is it the seven layers or is it the. I think it's hard because I think some are detrimental than others. Like, because like some institutions are so strict on what they want and sometimes that does not benefit the content. And then I think other times, you know, they'll do the seven layers and like, it's okay because the people trust and it's a quick process. I think again, having a team that you trust, either hiring people like Neil and I to work with the existing people in the comms department can kind of get rid of maybe some of those layers, but it's really trying to find the people you trust, and also how much you trust the team that you have in house working on it. I think, too, because I think some have gotten easier over the years to on certain ones, and especially when you've been doing the podcast with them for a long time, they're like, oh, okay, that trust is there and it's not going through as many people. Makes sense. I, I want to add something from your measure twice, cut once. Oh, you really did your research on here. I like I don't walk into these blinds. Neil knows about measure twice cut. I've heard the saying before is yeah, I usually cut once and then measure again and realize it was wrong. It was too late. You got to go back to the hardware store, right? What's the crossover from something like a home builder to a college podcast? Like what are the things that are in common? I guess I would say that's a good one because like, once again, it's for a home builders association. So it's not necessarily the you're not advertising Bob's construction company. No, it's a home builders association. So I feel like there's got to be some crossover, but I don't know what it necessarily is with those. Well, well, we're technically advertising many different types of Bob's construction companies. Okay. Home builders Association. So the Home Builders Association of Vancouver, and I feel like this relates to a lot of different podcasts and maybe not even just higher ed, but they had an issue like most during Covid, they are a non-profit membership based group. So the idea is in Vancouver, in Canada, there's which you would have in the States too. A lot of builders and people in the industry are maybe not that truthful and that great, and they'll run through the night with your deposit. So the Home Builders association is there, and they have members that are trusted members to build or renovate your home. But you pay for that stamp of approval, and they also give you other things in your membership, like different courses. There's different credits you have to take always to make sure your skills are up to date. But not only that you have. They create networking opportunities. They also promote you at home shows. But you know, that thing that happened in twenty twenty, Covid, uh, a lot of things stopped. And so what did we stop doing? Stopped going to home shows and stopped doing events. So how do you give your members value when they're still paying for their membership and the membership still need to be paid because there's an office staff and everything like that too? They gotta stay in business too. They gotta stay in business too. So we created Measure Twice, cut once, which has been amazing for them. So they've been doing it six years now and it's still their top marketing tool. We didn't think it would be something that would go past Covid, but what they do is they have all their different members on, and we talk about how to build or renovate your home right the first time. But kind of what Neil was saying before is it kind of humanizes these people and it makes them connect with you. So a lot of the bobs, the builders that have come on, uh, they have gotten jobs from the podcast. That was not the goal. I picture the cartoon with the hat on it. Bob the builder. Uh, that wasn't the point of the podcast, but it's great value now for the memory because the member has gone on, they've gotten jobs from the podcast, they're most likely to renew their membership, right? Um, not only that, they're able to give out their knowledge, learn from each other. Uh, we've had celebrity attention like Brian Baumler on, so they're aware of the types of things we do. We've had government attention, which was super important for them because the rules and regulations. So it's much more than just listens in a podcast for them. It gets their brand out to a newer audience too, because a lot of people didn't know, like my age group didn't know about the Home Builders Association because they give you like an old school Yellow Pages book of all the members. And, and none of us are going to look at that when we need to find a contractor. And so someone said Rolodex to me the other day and they're like, do you know what that is? And I'm like, yeah, I remember the Rolodex I gave myself by saying yellow Pages, but it's okay. Um, so it's been really useful too. So going back to, um, academia, um, and going to the universities and doing the similar thing again, it all comes down to your purpose of why you're doing it and why you want to do the podcast. So I think there's a lot of crossover in many areas of the podcast. Interesting. That's I love that. And it really does. It finds a way to connect them and it that common ground. The interesting thing, you guys are looking at some podcasting two point zero stuff, correct? Mhm. Like, and I'm going to have a follow up question to this too. That is going to be the, the banger question for no is so like, like, what is your thoughts on podcasting two point zero moving forward? Like what's, what's the motivator for you guys to look at that and test some of that stuff? Uh, well, I just think there's so much opportunity to, uh, enrich the actual podcast. There's so many things you can, you know, you can, you, you know, you could, you can do with it. Um, and then beyond just the listening. So, um, you know, for, from a higher education, from a higher education perspective, some of the tags that you can, that you can use, um, can, you know, you know, like, like there's the, there's kind of fit into higher education. So there's an importance for, um, citing people in research, for example, you got the person tag or, you know, there's a discovery issue that you've got the pod follow, you know, the follow tag. So there's transcripts. Transcripts are super important for a lot of institutions from an accessibility perspective. So it's really important to put that in chapters. So there's all, there's all the added features that you can add to your podcast, I think are super interesting and important. And, and they fit nicely into a lot of the academic, um, higher education world as well too. I think I really like the, and they haven't done too much on this, but I really like the transparency of it too, because I know with analytics, that's something they're trying to change is like right now, so many analytics are walled and like locked up and terrible. And maybe the fact that, you know, people will be able to see Analytics and judgment. Instead of having to be like, can I know what your numbers are or anything like that? Yeah. Open to open. Yeah. Like back to your walled garden comment. Um, open academia, open access. Sure. It goes back to the RSS feed walled garden is against it. It's like you lose portability, you lose control. And so I think if we want open access and to academia, we need to really, uh, stand behind and support the RSS feed. And then you have this, this two point zero layer, which sort of goes over top, which adds all this extra functionality and, and, and whatnot that you can do to. So it's interesting. And the piece that I find so interesting about it is like podcasting two point zero is this, I don't want to call it mushy or squishy, but it's not one hundred percent formed. It's not the standard tradition. Um, and you guys being involved in it to me is very, very forward thinking. And on the flip side of that, I'm going to call you out on this. The first two video podcasts you guys have ever done were the ones that I just recorded. And so to me, like, I want to ask you guys, like from a video perspective, I don't want to say that you guys don't think it's important you hate it or anything like that. But what's been the decision to say we're a podcast, we're an audio podcast. We're not going after video. That's I mean, that's the question that I want to look at with that instead. Like, this isn't a gotcha. I kind of want to make fun of you guys a little bit for it. Um, I think I've pushed for video and you and I have had a discussion about it. Why am I throwing grenades again? I think we could, I think, you know, I think this may be our entry point into our gateway drug or this might be our gateway into video, but I don't think that podcasting two point zero rests and falls on video. I think that's, a component there. I feel there's a lot of there's a lot of podcasts out there that are embracing a lot of the two point zero tags and are not video. Sure. So I think, you know, I think, you know, I think you could do that. I mean, you could have in theory, you could have a really interesting audio podcast, uh, and use chapters as visuals, right? Because, because the chapter tag isn't just the chapter from a time and what it's called, a chapter tag can also be an image that would go at that point in time. So you could actually have an audio podcast and we could be talking about something and, and, and Apple even recognizes it. And you can have that image come up at that certain chapter point. So. Fair enough. I think, I think your point about video is fair. And, you know, we've talked about it for sure. And I think we want to try to do more and more video. Um, it's just to me, what's interesting about it too, though, is like you guys doing what you do shows that you can be successful without it and that it really stamps home that point. You can be successful in forward thinking without it. Like for us, I like for me, I've pushed for it from the beginning because the first podcast I ever edited, the guy was doing video via Zoom calls back in twenty eighteen, and that's how he was posting it into YouTube and things of that nature. So I came at it from video first before I ever looked at the audio side, whereas you came at it from the audio side. I believe you have a background in radio. Never gonna live this down. You're not, you're not my credentials on LinkedIn, just randomly on LinkedIn. About once a month, I'm going to send you a message about radio is, uh, no, but I've actually been like on radio. And I know you have I'm, you know, you, you, you one hundred percent are. Um, but just the fact that he razzed you a little bit about it earlier today. Have you guys been on I'm just saying never. Um, I've called into a few. That doesn't count. That's the only other thing I guess I would say the news is, uh, the Cleveland Cavaliers, the basketball team. Um, I did a voiceover for something that was played over the PA, and there is nothing cooler than hearing your voice boom over the speakers of a of a, of a. Yeah, it was pretty cool nonetheless. Like if you guys. And the cool thing is too, is you guys see a bunch of podcasters all the time. Yeah. What is the one mistake that you see everyone making where you're like, just stop. Oh, I have a list. Can you go first then? Please don't ever use a computer microphone. That's one of mine also. Yes. Like, USB mics are not that much money if you're gonna go out, and especially if you're in the academic space and you're speaking all the time and you're doing presentations, it is worth the investment even if you're not doing a podcast. So please that. Okay. Now also, please never say that's a great question. We know it's a great question. I asked it, but don't, don't. I like that. I know because then you ask a question and someone says to me, that's a great question. I feel good when I hear it. Yeah, but you don't need to say that we know as the we're not dumb. We know that. That's a great question. So don't say to Jenn, good question. But say to Neil good question. Neil. Neil needs affirmation. Neil needs the affirmation. We know it's a good question because why would you be the person interviewing if it wasn't a good question? Okay. That's an interesting one. So I'm assuming Neil, you're going to say you should always encourage your host as a guest, right? What? Like, no, I agree, I agree. I agree with you about the sound thing, you know, especially with, um, the script and other programs like that where you literally can push a button to fix some of that and take the tinny away and so on and so forth. I think I, um, we do a tune up, uh, process. So we've got, we've kind of built over the years, we've kind of built this, this, uh, process where we'll take an existing podcast and maybe they've hit a bit of a plateau. They've been around for a while, or they launched three or four years ago and they didn't really kind of like launch properly. And so, so, you know, we take them through a tune up and it, there's some basics that are just amaze me that I see over and over again in, in higher education especially. So just picking a category, picking your category for your podcast. Um, they go education. It's, but it's, but it's not it's a, you know, it could be a science podcast. Yeah, exactly. And they're just putting themselves in the wrong category. And so you're telling Apple and Spotify, you know, to categorize yourself wrong kind of a thing. So there's just all these little, uh, or, you know, like use episode cover art and your show cover art, make sure for Apple, you've got the bespoke Apple version of your, of your, of your show art. Like there's just, there's a lot of basics to set up. Um, like the category one is a great example. That's a ten second fix. It's not like a big fix, but the, the knock on for, you know, in the apps and everything like that. So I just think there's some people, um, this is actually where Jen and I work really well together. So her background is, is more on the engineering side and the production, the actual, like I'm more of, I come from more of a tech background. So I've built, like I've built apps and websites and all this kind of stuff. So I come at it from that perspective. So I think about it should have a good website and it doesn't need to have like, there's so many tools out there for a show, your show website, but it's inexcusable. I think if you're on buzzsprout and you're, and you're, and your show is, is, is like continuing studies dot buzzsprout dot com and you're living in the buzzsprout world. So I just think there's some, some of that, some of those basics that you set up that you should really sort of get all that stuff right. So I think that's, that's my answer. Yeah. Jumping on to that one, people just discount the setup because they're like, oh, it's so easy. I can just get it up onto YouTube and Spotify with, like you said, one of the platforms. But it's not that easy because when Neil and I look at it, we actually see, and we've done this for one of my clients that were here, we did a tune up package and it's like, actually, you're not on half of these players because you gotta remember to the biggest one podcasts are listen to worldly. Yes, Apple and Spotify are predominant in Canada and the US, but it might not be in other places. So we got to forget that, because I know different pockets of audiences that aren't just necessarily here. And so the thing is, when we look at the analytics, I know Neil has two. You'll see like pocket casts and other ones that maybe you're not super familiar with. And people are like, oh, wait, I have a huge listenership on that. Why? And it's like, you don't want to cut your audience out. Everyone just is like, oh, I only want to be on Apple and Spotify and YouTube. And it's like, well, maybe your listeners, like maybe you're very niche podcast and they don't listen on those. Yeah, they could be on any one of the number of apps. I mean, so many people just think of the top two or three and that's all they go with. And if you're paying for a hosting platform, it's no extra money to add your RSS to it. Like put them on as many as you can. Yeah. Fully distribute. This has been entertaining as hell. When, when you guys were in the studio, like after the first podcast yesterday. I'm like, oh, I think I can rile them both up and make this entertaining as hell. And that's. Yes, please. We're gonna lay wrestle after. Yeah. We are. Okay. I don't know if we're having a talk. Can we get back to Vancouver? It's gonna be a breakup talk. I was hoping that this podcast wasn't going to break you, but I thought there was a chance. That being said, where can people find you to tell them all the places? Well, we are we're on other players except Spotify and Apple because Neil has set us up properly. Well, you personally, where can you where where can you find you? Yeah. Where can we find you too? People want to get Ahold of Jen. Where do you go? Where do they get Ahold of Jen? Oh, yeah. They can follow me on my Instagram. Jay Lee Johnson. Uh, LinkedIn. Follow me. Jennifer-Lee Gunson. Um, my website jpod creations dot com. That has all of them. Yeah. Awesome. What about you, Neil? Uh, LinkedIn's is a great one. Um, I love, I love LinkedIn, connect with me on, uh, on LinkedIn and then, um, email, I guess Neil at podium podcasts dot com. Wonderful. Both of you. Thank you, thank you, thank you. This is fun. You never get interviewed. This is like good, good. So this is our gateway into video and getting interviewed. Well, I think we need to be on more podcasts than her own. But I yes, I think you should. That being said, I will be back in just a bit with a summary. Thank you. What's my summary for all of this? First off, I am out of breath. After that. Those two, they're entertaining, they're energetic. They they truly are like phenomenal people. And this is one of the things that I love first off about podcasting conferences, we kind of do the same things. We aren't acting like we're in competition with each other. We we all know that there's plenty of podcasts out there for us to all work on. We want to make sure that we learn from each other, and we want to make sure that we do things that podcasting as a whole gets better, that we know things like podcasting two point zero, like the analytics, there's other tags, things like that. When that comes in that will be a help for the industry as a whole. And although it may hurt that top one percent, it's going to help so many other people get found and discovered. And that's something that we're all looking forward to. Additionally, the fact that they've got a kind of specialty with some of the higher education stuff, it really makes a difference when you know how to navigate some of those things. We do a number of legal podcasts, we do a number of financial podcasts. We figured out how to navigate those realms and how to speak that language. Additionally, we do some automotive podcasts. We do some powersports podcasts. We are working to make sure that we know how to navigate those things and how to speak the right language for the people that they are trying to target. We want to make sure that we are helping people get better all the time. And one of the reasons why I was so quick to yesterday, when they were here in the studio and they recorded, I saw that they were trying to do the same exact thing. They are trying to help people. They are genuinely good people. They are genuinely nice people. And I don't just say that because they're Canadians, they truly are genuinely nice people. I thoroughly enjoyed working with them this weekend, and I am looking forward to working with them in the future. That all being said, I hope you took something from today. Do me a favor, take care of yourself. If you can take care of someone else too. I will see you very, very soon.