The Podcast Growth Framework That Doubled Downloads & Generated Real Business

Most podcasts never reach the audience they deserve not because the content is bad, but because the strategy is missing.

In this conversation, Josh sits down with Joe Eftihiou, founder of ClareCast and host of Podcasting Amplified, to discuss what actually drives podcast growth for businesses. Joe shares how he transitioned from recording rock bands to helping companies use podcasting as a lead generation and relationship-building tool.

Instead of chasing vanity metrics, Joe explains why podcasting should focus on attracting the right audience, converting listeners into customers, and expanding your reach through authentic partnerships.

In this episode you'll learn:

• Why podcast growth is harder than most people expect
• The ACE Framework for growing a business podcast
• How "audience borrowing" doubled a client's podcast downloads
• Why guest interviews outperform cold outreach for B2B lead generation
• The biggest mistake businesses make when launching a podcast
• Why sponsorships aren't always the best way to monetize a show
• How to build genuine relationships with high-value prospects through podcasting

Whether you're a business owner, marketer, or current podcaster, this conversation is packed with practical strategies for using podcasting for marketing, brand building with podcasting, client attraction podcasting, and long-term business growth.

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Transcript

0:00

I went across the pond to get this week's guest. Why? Because he has a unique perspective on things and he's got an audio background. But as you'll see, the business side of this is where he really shines. Stay tuned. Joe, thanks for coming on the show. So you founded Clare Cass to help businesses connect with the decision makers. I mean, it's similar to what we do, and that's why I'm really excited to have the conversation. But then you also started podcasting amplified specifically to get your hands dirty in the community. I, I wanted to put that phrasing in there on that, like looking at your journey from being the audio guy to on YouTube to suddenly like this B2B agency founder, like what made you think, ah, podcasting is where I want to go. Yeah. So thanks Josh, anyway for going over that. It's nice and concise. Um, yeah, so I started working in recording studios with musicians, primarily my background education was music technology, but the course we did in university and college, it was focused on various elements of the audio spectrum. So there was music business, there was radio skills, there was media theory. So it was it gave me a good understanding of kind of various, like jack of all trades type thing within the audio industry, um, which I think suits podcasting nicely. But I did go into initially working, working in recording studios with musicians, didn't realise that there was a recording studio ten minutes down the road from me. I just sent a few emails and letters out and yeah, I was just kind of lucky that a couple of them responded to me. Um, and it turns out, but it was ten minutes down the road. Yeah, I didn't even, I don't know, it was kind of tucked in. It was part of a horse riding stables. I just had a recording studio there. Um, and, and I actually, my, my sister and I used to go horse riding at that stables when we were kids and still didn't realize that there was a recording studio in there. But it wasn't just any recording studio as well. It was like, I mean, if you're a prog rock or classic rock fan, then you recognize some of the names. It was bands like focus and, uh, worked with Dave Kilminster, who's Roger waters touring guitarist from Pink Floyd, um, and people from Wishbone Ash and Whitesnake, just like all these classic rock artists that are kind of quietly recording music just down the road from me. So in a horse stable. Yeah, I mean, not in the stable, that would have been right, but in that. That's amazing. Yeah, yeah, it's a nice purpose built studio, uh, which has since closed like a lot of studios around here. But yeah, I mean, it got my foot in the door of selling audio services, basically. Uh, but as I kind of wanted to advance the career and turn it into a full time thing, I started expanding into working with advertisers and podcasters and voice actors, just all sorts of audio recording, editing, production. And at the same time, my partner and I needed to find a place to, to live. And at the time it was, it was quite sporadic. And also I found working with musicians, although it was quite fun. Uh, it's, it can be very difficult to make it formal as, as a business like. Sure. There were a few times where the artist would just not pay. And they thought that was fine. And it's just that kind of that kind of situation with with musicians a lot of the time, especially if you're working with sort of unsigned artists and things. But the podcasting side of things was not at all like that. And at the same time, I was just getting really into listening to podcasts. So podcasts on audio production, on growing a business and content creation on, you know, other things. I'm interested in gaming and things like that. So I started to realize this is huge, this podcasting thing. And not only were my podcasting clients, the ones that stuck around, they were also the ones that it was easy to get, easier to get a specific result for rather than, you know, just we want our song mixed. It was like, right, I need to, to raise my profile within the industry. I want to get in front of certain people. And it was like it was a lot more rewarding that way because we could actually get results for people. So I niche down into podcasting. A few years later, I moved on from just the sole trader style business under my name and and called it Clara cast and started getting other people on board to help me with some of the production. And then as the business has grown, so have my skills needed to. Because as we know, podcasting isn't just audio anymore. I've had to learn pod video production, copywriting with the show notes and titles, promotion, all these different aspects. Now that kind of matches up nicely with how varied that university course was at the beginning with media theory and radio and all those different things. And yeah, it's just just become a more results driven business now rather than just, hey, we'll edit your music or mix your audio or whatever. It's interesting because the like that that I found most people in podcasting have not like no one grew up and has come into the industry saying, I want to be a podcaster when I grow up, or I want to be a podcast production company. It people are coming in through all these side entrances is what I find with it is, I guess what I would call it. There's like, there's no front door, there's a bunch of side entrances, and that's how people are coming into it. And like your background in that audio production, I love that because that is it's truly a piece that so many people are missing, because we've all heard the horrible Zoom meetings that people are using their microphones in their laptops and they're using the. And I realized those make me cringe all the time. There's still people out there that have good information with terrible audio. And like, like you, I those are some of the ones that make me want to put a Josh shaped hole in the wall. Uh, yeah. Yeah, there's a huge opportunity there. I mean, there's, I, the barrier to entry is so low and the people who are into podcasting or want to start a podcast for whatever reason, a lot of the times they're not audio engineers or they're not experts in audio. Whereas yeah, working with musicians or, you know, other people within the audio space, they generally are looking for a sound. They know what they want, want something to sound like, whereas yeah, podcasting, they have a message. A lot of the time and the technical side of things is sort of secondary and much, they're much more likely to need some support with that. That's interesting. Uh, because I haven't really thought of it that way. Where, yeah, on the music side, they want that specific sound. Um, people will turn knobs all day long on different things to try and get that. Nope, that's not quite right. Nope. That's yeah, that's that's an interesting way to put it. Now, like I know you've just done the production background. Just out of curiosity, do you play an instrument yourself? Yeah, I started playing guitar and then I started singing as well and playing bass, acoustic guitar. I always wanted to learn drums, but that's, uh, something for the future at some point. Oh, see, I used to play drums and I can't do any of the other things. And you definitely don't want me to sing. Yeah, I, um, with that, you you you've built and I mean, you've helped build for a number of people a substantial like YouTube following a podcast following. And you recently broke down how a podcaster was like able to triple their listeners without like working on through AI slop or like we, we, I mean, you and I both know about the fake promotional stuff where people are going to put ten Mr. Beast hashtags in something and get a quick bump and then it's going to disappear for a like for a marketing manager that's got, let's say, flat numbers like their, their podcast isn't growing necessarily right off. What's one of the things that you look at to say, hey, like, what are the things that you typically look at to make sure that I guess I would say foundationally or correct for a podcast to start growing? Yeah. So I just want to say podcast growth is really hard. Like, yes, that's something that I feel isn't obvious for some people when they start. It's like if you build it, they will come kind of thing. And I think a lot of the different facets, there are so many facets to it that are kind of invisible to some people. They don't realize, like, I was speaking to somebody recently and she, she wanted to get, she wanted to launch a podcast to attract leads to her business. And she wanted to basically start getting leads within like a month of launching. And like how. So my question was, how big is your audience? Because unless you have thousands of people who are going to see that you've launched this podcast and it's a high quality podcast, who are going to start listening to it straight away. A month is almost definitely not going to happen unless you spend loads, loads of money on paid ads. If you want to go back the truck up with full of money for paid ads. Beyond that, no. Yeah. So when I speak with business owners and marketing managers, the first. Well, one of the first questions is how long do you want to be podcasting for or how long are you willing to commit for? Because if it's not at least twelve to twenty four months, then it's probably not worth the investment. Or yeah, if you have those other two things, then it makes it a lot quicker. The big audience or the big wallet. So there are three things that we focus on when it comes to growth. And I like acronyms. So I called it ace. So there's a for attract and that's how you're attracting your ideal listener to your content by tailoring your content. What's the, what's inside the content. So the actual episodes themselves, I like to call the present and then the packaging for that present. So the, the show notes, the titles, the, the thumbnails on YouTube, the cover art on the podcast platforms. So getting that right and getting a really good understanding of who your ideal listener is and what they want to see and what they want to hear is the first step. And then making sure that you're consistently producing great content. The second one is convert. So they kind of blend into each other. The convert is where those people that you've attracted, you're converting them to actually listen to the episodes and then converting them to clients. If that's the if that's the goal that you're after. And then the third one is expand. So getting it in front of more people who otherwise wouldn't have already found your podcast organically or through your, your network and what you mentioned there. Sorry. I'll, uh, no, go ahead. I mean, that's, I love the it's funny, the, the acronym is great. Um, that that's a great way to do that. Like what, what is the next step that you're going to then? Yeah. Well, the one that you mentioned where we were able to help one of our clients triple her downloads. That was, I mean, we'd worked on, on the content itself, but that was the expand piece. And it was through a strategy that is quite self-explanatory, but it's what we call audience borrowing. So if you don't already have that massive audience is getting your podcast in front of somebody else who has a big audience, likely that contains a lot of your ideal listeners. And because one, the the first series or the second series that we worked on of her podcast was she, it was a book reading podcast, basically, and she was reading through this reading list that a famous author had put together. It's like reading through all the classic books you probably should have read at some point in your life that you haven't. Um. Uh, yeah. I mean, the podcast is doing well. It's organically growing, but it was kind of a catalyst because this author has, I believe it was two hundred and fifty thousand followers on his Substack. So it was like, right, you're doing something that he would very much be interested in hearing about. Most likely he's got quarter of a million followers. What if he was to share the podcast with his follower base? And after some outreach, a couple of follow ups. He agreed to basically, and a couple of times he posted and he actually did an interview with her as well and posted a little piece on that. And then, yeah, almost overnight, it basically tripled her downloads. Now that petered off a little bit when, you know, because you have to filter through the ones that are just listening to, to listen to it, to try it out. And then the ones that are going to stick around. But it based on that audience borrowing strategy, it has landed on around double the listeners that she had before. And it's, you know, it took an hour's work, maybe now a lot of people aren't going to have that name in mind. Maybe that has that huge following. So that is a tricky part of it. Finding who that that where that opportunity lies. But it's definitely the most effective thing. So whether you're guesting or you're doing guest blog posts, whatever it is, if you can get in front of someone or someone else's audience, that's the fastest way that I know of. It's interesting, you know, it brings up another point for me that I'd like to address on this with you and kind of get your feedback on it. It's, it seems like the more that we've done this, the more the authentic fit is the key because like that, obviously you can send emails to people that have quarter of a million followers all day long, and it may not matter, but finding that one ideal fit, whether it be with the right guest, whether it be with the right person like that. Do you think that is like that fit is just such is the big unlock for things or is it just the, the, the, I guess I would say the quantity. Yeah, I'd say fit for sure is more like the eighty percent of it. Whereas quantity I'd say is more the than twenty percent of it. Quantity is important because there's always going to be a conversion rate. So you don't want to put all your eggs in one basket. But yeah, the fit is most important. Like there's no point in spending your time getting in front of audiences who just don't match. For example, like I've been playing around with some buzzsprout ads recently, which is a very simple way of advertising on other people's podcasts. For anyone who doesn't know, you can record an ad and then the other podcasters on the platform can select your ad to put on their podcast, but then you have the opportunity to say yes or no. And just looking through some of the ones that approved my ad, I think I denied maybe eighty percent of them because there was no point in paying or wasting time putting ads on. I mean, my podcast, podcasting amplified. It's primarily for business owners and founders who want to grow their podcast. So getting my ad on a Disney podcast, for example, that was just one of the ones I can remember is probably a waste of time. It's like, yeah, I may have one person that happens to be listening that's interested, but I was saying yes primarily to the ones in marketing and business growth and leadership and content marketing and things like that. So yeah, and that extends to when you're outreaching to people as well. It's one hundred percent makes sense. I mean, we talk about that, that niche. And I see in so many cases where people are so worried about eliminating people that they actually don't connect with the right people because they're trying to talk to everyone instead of the one, um, that's going to come to them. That being said, I mean, you've talked about how you're not a fan necessarily of traditional sponsorships and you've, you've looked at the podcast, like monetizing a podcast as its itself is his own asset to reach those high value buyers. Um, you've promised like you like the alternative lead generation strategies. So like, what do you see? Like a lot of corporate podcasters are missing when it comes to turning in, like just speaking into this can in front of me into actual like, hey, dollars, look over there. Yeah. So I think it depends on the podcast. Like there are some podcasts that sponsorship is a good route. For example, if it's an entertainment podcast, you're not trying to get clients out of it. Then sponsorships can be effective, especially if it's in a particular niche. Like I'm just speaking to somebody at the moment. He has a podcast called Clarity Week where he helps people reduce their drinking, basically alcohol moderation. So he's getting sponsorship with like companies that make alcohol free wine and things like that. So some podcasts, there are a good match because he's he's not trying to sell anything of his own. But for the clients that we work with, and at the beginning, the business, it was partly by accident, sort of they were the, the clients that just happened to, to start working with us. But really it was about right. How can we get these people a result, the return on investment as quickly as possible and sponsorships is generally not the way of doing that. Now, you don't need a giant following to get a sponsorship, but if you want to get some serious money out of it, you kind of generally do need at least a significant following. And that's generally going to take a long time. But for most of our clients, they just want to get in front of their ideal clients. So they want to get a foot in the door. They want a handshake with certain people that otherwise won't give them the time of the time of day. If they're sending out DMs on LinkedIn or, you know, cold outreach, whatever it is, they're not getting a response. But what does get them response is, do you want to join me on my podcast for an hour and then promote yourself and your story and everything you're doing. So this is the kind of guest prospecting strategy that we use. So it doesn't matter how many listeners you have, as long as you have a podcast that looks great, sounds great, and is attractive to your ideal buyer, then inviting them on as a guest just opens that door. Then you've got an hour with them to build rapport. Now, it's not a sales call. You're not you're not trying to sell them anything. Uh, it's got to be valuable to whatever listener you're targeting, but it doesn't matter because you've just had a conversation with them for an hour, and that naturally builds rapport with that guest. It naturally leads on to conversations after like, oh, well, thanks for this. How can I help you? And that's where we've seen results with our clients in terms of getting an ROI. I was speaking with with somebody. She's not a client, but she just wanted a bit of advice on her podcast. And she was kind of looking for both things with her podcast. She wanted sponsorships and also new clients. And I asked her how much she's getting from her sponsorship at the moment. And, you know, in sort of maybe multiple three figures, it was quite low because the podcast is quite small. I said, how much is lifetime value of one client worth to you? And she was umming and ahhing a bit and she came to about one hundred grand. So I was like, if you could tailor the podcast in a way that would get you one client, even if you're podcasting for three years and you signed one client that you can attribute directly to the podcast, then it would pay for the podcast. You know, a dozen fold. It depends how much she ends up spending on it, but that's the opportunity if you want to make money off it. Like if you don't, if you want to share a story and you want to do things your own speed, and it's just a kind of, I don't know, more of a hobby, then fine. But there's the opportunity, if you can use that to get in the room with one of those one hundred grand clients, then that's the ROI. I would take that all day long. Yeah. With that, like you've noted, like one of your biggest lessons is consistency is really it's only one piece. And I mean, it seems like with podcasting, there are multiple pieces of the puzzle and I, this is not a four hundred piece puzzle. All. Um, but it's an eight or ten piece puzzle that if you like, if we've all put together a puzzle and we realized the cat ate a piece or the dog ate a piece or something like that, um, like you've mentioned, you have to gather feedback, adapt and iterate. What's one of the best ways that you've found to like, gather that feedback from people? Yeah. So one great way is getting your podcast on YouTube if you don't already, because YouTube is so much more mature as a content platform and it's so much more robust kind of in and of itself. Whereas podcasting, because of RSS technology, it's much more segmented across the platforms, and the platforms can do their own different thing, which has its own benefits. Like, I'm glad, Add. You know, RSS technology makes things easier in some ways and it makes things a lot more free. You're free to put it on whatever platforms you want and so on. But there isn't much feedback from listeners with most of the podcast platforms. Spotify now has comments, so I've had a few comments on there, which is which is nice and you can reply, but generally YouTube is much easier to get a conversation going. People will see the comment section, they'll reply, they can like and dislike, and you can see whether you got likes or dislikes. A very simple way of getting feedback, the likes and dislikes. But it's something at least. So yeah, whether it's an audio podcast or a video podcast, you're going to get more growth with a video podcast on YouTube, of course. Um, but yeah, that's, that's the first suggestion I'd make with that. Like, what is, I mean, it's always about like getting the, the consistency. It's always about adapting. What what do you look for in that? Because to me, I'm always afraid of. And we work with people on this one bad comment I don't feel like should shift an entire podcast because you're always going to have the one crazy person that types something nonsensical. And I want to make sure that we're not shifting for that. What are some of the keys that you guys are looking for when you're like, hey, we're going to make a shift or we're going to make a pivot? What are some of the things you're looking at in that? Yeah. One comment, I'd see what you mean. And it's difficult when you're first starting out, like before you've got the numbers because again, yeah, if you do have one comment and it's like, I don't like your teeth or something, which, which is something that I've gotten comments like that before. And it's like, well, I'm not going to go and get my teeth done because of that comment. But yeah, but, um, yeah, so the numbers help when you start getting a more varied, more varied feedback. There's also. There's always only going to be like, you know, ten percent. I don't know what the exact figure is, but probably around ten percent of people actually feeding back or putting a comment or liking your video. Sure. But one hundred percent of your listeners are going to either listen or not listen. So that's one piece of feedback is what are the numbers saying your analytics, if you find that, I mean, this is what I've found recently that when I switched a few months ago to mostly solo episodes, my views doubled on YouTube. I was like, okay, YouTube prefers the solo episodes now. That's not going to be the same. That's just for my podcast. Um, it might be the way I do solo episodes or it might be the way I did interviews or I mean, as a side note, what I think it was is that I wasn't being specific enough with the kind of guests that I get on. So when I do get guests on my podcast now, it's, it's much more targeted to what I think the ideal listener would be interested in. But that's one thing. It's the same for another client of ours, the angry Designer. Now, they started out as a co-hosted podcast. So the two of them, their friends, their colleagues, they've got great rapport. And it's kind of magnetic, their energy, their, their style. And that's why people are watching. So when they do do the odd guest interview, unless it's someone really big, they do see a bit of a dip in their views. So that's the feedback the audience telling you we want solo episodes. Um, and you know, topics as well. If you find that certain topics get way more views or certain types of titles get way more downloads. Then again, that's a pretty clear indicator of what your audience wants. Uh, but yeah, the comments piece, you can also do polls or feedback forms, you know, like Google forms. So if again, if you have a reasonable, you know, a few dozen, you should be able to get a couple a couple of pieces of feedback from. If you put a Google forms together, just simple. What's your favorite episode? What's your least favorite episode? What's the one thing that you would change if you had to change something about this podcast? Four or five questions. Uh, what's the, you know, one thing that keeps you listening over other podcasts maybe. And then, yeah, a lot of people would be happy to give their feedback. So if, especially if you can give some kind of incentive, like, I'll read your name out on the podcast, or if you've got some budget, then I'll give you a voucher or whatever. Sure. That's another way that makes great sense. And like, as we start to close out, one of the things that I always like to, to hone in on is like anyone that has a podcast at some point has learned a very hard lesson about it. Um, us as producers, we in some cases have learned those hard lessons a few times. Uh, I know there's been a few that we've learned a couple of times. What is that hard lesson that you've learned that you had no idea you were going to walk into when you, uh, when you started podcasting? Yeah. So I'll kind of give you two that lead into each other. The first one is that just because I've got thirteen thousand downloads. Sorry, thirteen thousand subscribers on YouTube, that doesn't mean all of them want this podcast in its current form. You can't just assume you know what your guests want. You have to get that feedback or you have to ask them beforehand. The second thing is, I think I've delayed too much in the past with making changes based on that feedback. So I think it's quite easy for podcasters, especially if you're running a business on the side of it to. kind of leave things by the wayside. Like to feel that you probably should do such and such. Like you probably should put some more time and effort into your thumbnails for your episodes or your titles or whatever that is. You should maybe write a new ideal guest profile to get really clear on who your ideal guests are. But it's very easy to just kind of coast along and leave that till later. But I think maybe if I'd have even just like said, right, I'm actually going to take a break from this podcast for a month because I haven't missed a single episode. I was really wanting to make sure I'd stay consistent because that's what I recommend to other people, right? But yeah, I just think there were a couple of things I probably should have focused on and tweaked a little bit earlier. And even if I had to take a few weeks break just to make that happen, it would have probably, Yeah, maybe driven growth a little bit faster going forward. It's interesting you say that. Why do you like the quick follow up to that is why do you think? And I see it with us. I see it with some of the podcasters we work with. Why is everyone so scared to make the changes? Is it just because it's change? Yeah, I think there's aversion to risk involved in there. Like if you already, you know, if a business hasn't had a podcast for that long or maybe six months or something, they've got like a hundred regular listeners and, you know, not not huge, but the listeners they do have are listening to most of the episodes. They're giving feedback and positive feedback and things like that and thinking, right, well, if I make a change now, what if I go down to fifty and or twenty five and then I've got to build it up again? But yeah, I think the risk risk aversion is there. I think also, it's like some people that I've spoken with think that they've hit the cap or the total addressable market, and they don't realize the opportunity out there because maybe they don't they've never spoken to another podcaster or someone in the space or someone else doing a podcast in their industry, so they don't know. Yeah. I've had people saying like, well, we've got, you know, two hundred downloads a month. And I think that's it. I don't think it's going to grow anymore. It's like, well, how do you know that? How what, what could you do differently that might attract more listeners? What have you tried in the last six months? And it's like, well, nothing. We've just launched the podcast and then done the same thing every month. And I'm not criticizing again, like there have been times when I've maybe haven't adapted soon quick enough or, uh, yeah, just kind of coasted along for a little while. So I think they're the main reasons that hold people back. One hundred percent makes sense. I know change for me is often uncomfortable, but it's one of those things sometimes we need to do. That being said. For more information. Where. Where can people find you? Yeah. So if you are a business owner or leader or marketing manager and you want to get results from your podcast, then search for podcasting amplified wherever you listen to or watch your podcasts. Mostly solo episodes, we go through very specific topics like how to attract your ideal guests, how to improve your audio and video, how to implement AI in a way that's not going to ruin your content and all sorts of little things. You can jump in anywhere. They're quite self-contained. So podcasting amplified wherever you get your podcasts. Awesome. Joe, thank you for all the information. Really appreciate it. For everyone else out there. I've got and I'm really the big one I'm excited to talk about. It's the ace thing. That's the one. To summarize. I will be right back. Thanks again. Joe. Cheers. Josh. It's really interesting to me because Joe's worked with enough clients in enough different ways that he's got a great perspective on a lot of the pieces with this. And that's the thing that I really, I truly enjoy when I get to talk to other podcast producers, podcasters have their own podcast, their own world that they've worked in. Other producers were seeing it from a thirty thousand foot view in many cases. And we're comparing notes across a number of different podcasts, number of different platforms. And to me, that's what makes it so, so, so interesting to talk to other producers. That being said, his Ace acronym, I love attract, convert, expand. That's really what this is all about. And so many people, when they think of organic growth, they think of just put it out there and life will happen. Build it and they will come. Doesn't really work. And that's where that acronym is so good because it's really I mean, when you think about it, attract and expand, they're kind of the same thing, but they're kind of not it. What it's doing is it's constantly reminding you that you need to put in the work. You need to be doing the things in order to make sure that you're pushing your podcast forward, finding the right audiences, finding the right guests, finding the right topics. It's all about making sure that you do those things to keep the podcast constantly moving forward. Just putting out episodes isn't enough. It's it's making sure that you're doing them in the right way. The other thing that I want to mention too, is when he talked about that client that was trying to get more ads, but once again, could get one hundred thousand dollars out of, uh, if they got a client through it, stop tripping over dollars to pick up times. People always talk about monetization like they're going to end up being Mr. Beast and a billionaire in a, in a couple of years. That's not how monetization typically works. I guess I want to I want to equate it to like a sports figure. You've got the people at the very top that are making just a ton of money. Everyone else in the middle of that, in many cases, is struggling to kind of get by. And that's okay, that there's a passion, there's a love for it. But in that monetization game, that middle ground, even just just below that top tier is a very, very tough place to be. So finding the other way to monetize your podcast, making it the content creation hub for your business, making it a way for you to reach out to new guests, to new people, making it a way your, your networking connection, making it a way to start those conversations. That is one of the biggest keys that you can have for monetization on those types of things. To me, like once again, it is about giving to your audience. It is a podcasting is very much about giving, and if you do that, it will come back to you and that is how you're going to monetize it. As always, make sure you do all the things. I would love to get feedback if you have any on it. Joe talked a lot about getting feedback from people. By all means, leave the comments, be it on YouTube, be it on Spotify, be it any of the platforms. Would totally love to hear from you. Think you want to be a guest? Let's sit down and talk. As always, do me a favor. Take care of yourself. If you can take care of someone else too. I will see you very, very soon.