Owning Your Value - The Client Enrollment Process

One of the trickiest challenges I deal with is fully owning my value as a coach.

This shows up in my conversations with perspective clients. Especially when it comes to sharing what I charge and what clients can expect regarding outcomes.

This is a part of myself that keeps saying Really? Can you actually charge people that much?

When Harrison Moore offered me a free coaching session I heard no confusion when he explained the value of the gifted session. He was absolutely clear that what he was offering was very valuable. I didn’t hear a hint of “I’m giving you a free session because I hope you’ll choose to become a paid client.” 

What I heard was from Harrison was he was genuinely interested in what I was doing in my business and to some degree he was assessing whether I was someone he wanted to coach.

The conversation felt honest and constructive. 

I was so impressed, I asked Harrison if he would be a podcast guest and share his enrollment process in more detail. 

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Transcript

[MRW Podcast] Harrison Moore - Edited 
 

[00:00:00] Judy Murdoch: Hi. Welcome to the Marketing Root Work podcast. I'm Janine Murdoch. I'm your host today. 

My guest is Harrison Moore, and Harrison is a coach. And he has a very special way of giving people a taste of what it is that he does as a coach. And so, Harrison, I'm going to let you go ahead and introduce yourself and then we'll get into the content.  

[00:00:25] Harrison Moore: Cool. Good to be here, Judy. Thanks for giving me another opportunity to talk about coaching. 

I was just saying to a friend earlier that one of my favorite ways to kind of express myself and talk about things that interest me is to be asked questions by people. 

It's so much easier than sitting in front of a blank screen and trying to think of what should I share? 

So this kind of format works really well for me. I love, I love being asked these questions. So just by way of a quick introduction, I'm originally from England, but I'm, I'm lucky enough to, uh, travel full time with my wife Karina, who's also an artist and a designer. My route into coaching - it was unconventional through the construction industry, through art school, then through the tech and startup environment. And then through writing online, I worked at Rite of Passage, which was a very renowned online writing, school. And found my way to coaching organically, because I was often in that role for people, working with them to help them develop their creative practice in various ways. 

So about a year ago, I decided to experiment with professionalizing my coaching practice. And that's what I've been doing ever since. And final thing I'll say about it is that I work with people who they may have spent most of their career doing what they perhaps thought they should do, or what were the people expected of them. 

[00:01:51] Judy Murdoch: Mm-hmm.  
 

[00:01:52] Harrison Moore: But then either through sort of timing or through circumstance, they've gotten to a point where they've said, right, that's enough. I'm ready to bring something of my own into the world. It doesn't have to be profit making, it could just be a creative project of any kind.  

[00:02:07] Judy Murdoch: Mm-hmm. 
 

[00:02:08] Harrison Moore: And perhaps they have some self doubts. 

Maybe they feel overwhelmed with where to begin. Maybe they're afraid of what people might say. Maybe they are procrastinating on it in some way. Those are the people and those are the projects that I tend to really enjoy and get a lot of impact with. So, yes, that wasn't that short an introduction, but I'm always working on making those things a bit more succinct, so apologies. 

[00:02:37] Judy Murdoch: That's entirely okay. I thought you did a really great job actually, of talking about who you work with and what they're struggling with, which is something that it's really important for us as coaches to be able to articulate.  

[00:02:48] Harrison Moore: Mm mm-hmm.  

[00:02:50] Judy Murdoch: So the reason I really wanted to do a podcast conversation with you today was because I had an experience with you. 

And to be transparent, Harrison is my business coach, but I think the process by which he became my business coach is really important for me to talk about it. And I really want Harrison to talk more about it too. Initially Harrison and I met on Substack. We were in a class together and I was intrigued by the name of your business, I think you called it, new Workday at the time. 

And I was very intrigued by that. And I thought, oh, you know, I really wanna hear more about what this man does. And we got to know each other. And I began to really appreciate your writing when you were writing more often on Substack. And at some point we just kind of hung out. We did a coffee chat and you said, you know, I would really like to offer you a gifted coaching session. 

I don't know if those were, that was exactly how you said it, Harrison, but the way you said it, it was really hard for me to say no because, it sounded like you would really enjoy it. And BI was really intrigued by, you know, sort of like, well, what would a gifted coaching session be? And so I'd took like, over a, a period of months, maybe three to four months, you kept offering me gifted coaching sessions. 

And I wanna be clear too here that as a coach, and you know, both of us are coaches, we're in sort of the coaching world in the industry, offering free sessions, offering free consultations. That's a very, very common way as coaches to build our practices. Any coaching session period for us as coaches has value. 

It just does. We always learn and grow through coaching somebody. But there's also the hope of course, that after the coaching session, the person that we're talking to will say, wow, that was really powerful. What do you charge and, and how do I become a client? You know, we always hope, right there is, there's that kind of sales process in there, and I never had that sense with you, Harrison, ever. 

Maybe you were hoping I would ask those questions, but I just always felt very much like the coaching session in itself was sort of a self-contained gift and it felt very solid. I always felt like I got a lot out of it. I never felt ever that you were putting in anything less. 

100% because you were giving away the session. And it's such an attractive way to bring what you do into the world. It really is, the way you've done it. I know very few other people either in coaching or therapy or other areas who are able to really sort of embody the value of what we do. 

We talked about that before, but you also bring it into these gifted sessions. So what I would like to learn a little bit more about today is how did you learn, like who did, were you inspired, sort of where did you get this idea? And the second piece would be for people listening who do like to use free discovery sessions in order to grow their practices. 

What are some really practical things they can do to make use of this in their own business? So I know that's a lot, but let's just start with where did you get the idea?  

[00:06:17] Harrison Moore: To make a couple of notes so I don't forget. So. Yes, there's a lot here and I hope I can share everything that I think is valuable in the right order. 

I might end up looping back to things, but essentially your first question is like, how did I come to develop or learn that particular approach to enrolling 

[00:06:37] Judy Murdoch: mm-hmm. 
 

[00:06:37] Harrison Moore: Clients. The short answer is that I'm part of a professional coaching organization called, the coach's operating system. 

[00:06:46] Judy Murdoch: Hmm. 
 

[00:06:47] Harrison Moore: You can google that, and you'll find tons on it. It's essentially a network that was created by an executive coach. And inside it, there are all kinds of resources and coaching practice sessions and everything else that you might imagine. 

[00:07:02] Judy Murdoch: Mm-hmm. 
 

[00:07:02] Harrison Moore: It's called the operating system because it's not actually about how to develop your coaching skills, it's specifically about how to build a business around coaching. 

[00:07:13] Judy Murdoch: Mm-hmm. 
 

[00:07:14] Harrison Moore: And I don't want this to turn into sort of an advert for TCOS. I'm certainly not getting any commission, but I do recommend it very highly. 

It's helped me tremendously. So if you are a coach out there and that sounds like something you want to explore, I would highly recommend going and exploring that. Within that community, there are tons of resources and structured ways that other more senior coaches  

[00:07:41] Judy Murdoch: mm-hmm. 
 

[00:07:42] Harrison Moore: Have shared how they build their business. So I can't talk about any of this without giving a lot of credit to the amazing coaches and people that I've met in that community. Not everything I've learned came from only them, but a lot of it has. And I don't think I'd be where I am as a coach today if it wasn't for those resources. So let's get into like what that looks like in practice. So, written down here, enrollment conversations. I think that's a good place to start. 

[00:08:12] Judy Murdoch: Is it okay if I interject something quickly here? 

[00:08:14] Harrison Moore: Yeah, yeah. Sure. Sure.  

[00:08:16] Judy Murdoch: So from a marketing perspective, which you know, is largely about how do we become visible and then how do we develop trust with a potential client so that they do feel really comfortable wanting to hire us. There is so much intangible that goes into why a person says yes. 

You know, when we are a coach, when we are a financial planner, when we're a therapist or a holistic healer, so much of it is about kind of like how we show up and who we are when we do our work. The intangible is so important. So it's another reason why I think in this enrollment process giving people direct experiences is so important. 

So I'll let you take off from there.  

[00:09:03] Harrison Moore: I agree. And giving people an experience of coaching is part of what I call enrollment conversations. So enrollment conversations isn't my term. It's a term that I just came across in the community or elsewhere. Nobody owns that term, but it is an important term for me. It describes the important collection of different touch points that 

[00:09:26] Judy Murdoch: yes 
 

[00:09:26] Harrison Moore: a coach and a prospect have on the way to a formalized partnership. And I'll just go through the ones that I've learned from other coaches and that I'm practicing the one that you yourself have been part of. 

So there are basically four distinct touch points 

[00:09:47] Judy Murdoch: mm-hmm.  
 

[00:09:48] Harrison Moore: Before a client and a coach create a paid partnership together. So I'll go through them quickly and then I'll go deeper on each one. So the first one is what I call a connect call. The second one is a discovery call. 

The third one is an experience of coaching or a gift of coaching. And the fourth one is an author and decision call. Okay? So I'll say a little bit about each. So the connect call is just what it says on the tin. It's that first call you have with someone or series of calls in which the only agenda is to connect with them, have some fun, find out a little bit more about them, connects with shared interests or shared values. 

Now the connect call. You know, that can happen organically. You can be intentional about it. If you already know somebody, well then setting up a connect call is as simple as saying, let's jump on a call, man. I wanna see you. I wanna chat. I wanna catch up. Right? Whereas if it's somebody that you don't know, then I don't have much experience with this method actually. 

'cause I've, I've tended to build my coaching practice with people that I know already. But I imagine that if you are trying to connect with someone who you don't know, there's probably a bunch of best practices and, and non-creepy, non needy ways of reaching out and saying, Hey, I saw you on a podcast. 

Or, Hey, I read your blog. I like this piece and this piece and this piece. I wanna talk to you about it. I've got some questions. Whatever, right? Point is, there has to be an initial connection, otherwise you don't have anything to build from. So that is what I think of as a connect call. And connect calls can be 15 minutes, they can be three hours. 

It doesn't matter. Whatever feels natural. So let's talk about the next step of discovery call. So, at some point in the connect call presumably the coach explains, Hey, I'm a coach. This is who I work with, this is what I'm interested in. I really like you. 

I really like your project. I like the energy that you bring to things. I like your honesty. I like your sincerity. I like your humility. I think it's important to be honest about these things. Not just make them up, right? But if you don't like someone's vibe or someone's work, then in my opinion, don't try coaching them. 

That's my hot take. But anyway, at some point on the connect call or outside the connect call, you say to 'em, look, I'm a coach. Your work really interests me. I'm excited because X, X, Y, Z, or A B, C, and one of the things I do for people is I run a discovery call and it's a unique opportunity for you to explore what might be possible in a safe and nonjudgmental environment. 

And it's not coaching. I wouldn't be trying to steer you or advise you in any way. We wouldn't be solving any problems. It would just be uninterrupted focused time for you to explore what you want to create in the world and why that's important to you. And if you want, I'd be happy to give you a discovery call with no obligation for you to do anything else at the end of it. 

Alright? So that's, that's one way that I would invite somebody to a discovery call and notice that like, this is all true. Like, there's no bullshit here. 

[00:12:52] Judy Murdoch: Mm-hmm. 
 

[00:12:52] Harrison Moore: This is, this is exactly what we will be doing on the discovery call. And like, and I mean, everything I'm saying with all my heart, right, there's no bullshit. 

[00:13:00] Judy Murdoch: So I just wanna interject here, Harrison, that the way that you framed the discovery call and the way, and you did actually, that was how you talked about it.  

[00:13:10] Harrison Moore: Mm-hmm.  
 

[00:13:11] Judy Murdoch: And I just want to say that the way you came across, you were very sincere, you were very straightforward. I believed you. Those things are surprisingly important and powerful. 

I just want you to know that I have had very few conversations with the coaches or other people in sales places who are able to talk about what they do in such a sincere, believable way.  

[00:13:46] Harrison Moore: Mm-hmm.  
 

[00:13:47] Judy Murdoch: Yeah.  
 

[00:13:49] Harrison Moore: I appreciate it. I appreciate you saying that. I'll come back to this point about sincerity it a little bit later 'cause it's very important. 

So I'm glad you brought it up. But can I, can I continue into the next 

[00:14:01] Judy Murdoch: Yes, please. Yes, please do.  

[00:14:03] Harrison Moore: So the discovery call is actually like one of my favorite things in the world. I'm just trying to make sure that I don't assume that certain things I enjoy or certain things I've learned that everyone else enjoys the same things or knows the same things. 

So I don't wanna be tone deaf or anything here, but I really enjoy discovery calls because it's an opportunity to get out of my own head, which can be a loud, complex place. Right? And it's like 60 minutes or 90 minutes or whatever of getting out of my own head and literally just focusing on other human beings. 

And for somebody that spent most of his teenage and young adult life, very selfishly absorbed in his own shit. And how can I get mine? And how can I make an impact? And what can I do to change the world? Um, there's something very, very, very liberating and nourishing about forgetting myself and losing myself in somebody else's life. 

Right? So discovery calls are where it's at. I love discovery calls, and of course, nine times out of 10 people don't usually get 90 minutes or 60 minutes to just talk about themselves without interruption. So first of all, a discovery call is a gift that you are giving someone else. And I wanna come back to this thing at the end as well. 

Lemme just make a little note of that 'cause that's really important. 

So, we've talked to people on a connect call. We've mentioned that we, we didn't like to invite 'em to a discovery call. They come to the discovery call. Of course, there's a structure that I follow on a discovery call. You can make your own, you can pinch structures from other coaches. 

Discovery call transcripts and discussion guides are 10 at penny on the internet and in books and things. So my advice is have a structure. They're all correct. They all work as long as you honor the process and are genuinely curious. What I tend to say to people, if by the end of the discovery call, we both feel- that word is key. We both have to feel it, that there is something worth pursuing even further on an even deeper level. Then I will say to people at the end of the discovery call, Hey, I don't do this all the time with everyone, which is true. I don't. 

But occasionally when something feels worthwhile to pursue, I offer people a gift of a coaching experience and I say that and I reiterate why I would like to work with them and their project now. Right? And that's about, again, just being honest. Like, what I really like about this is that you are actually trying to face the thing that scares you the most and that inspires me. 

Or what I love about this is that this brings out the mischievous side of you. And I can see that that's the truest version of you and it's fun and I want to go on that journey with you. Whatever, just as long as it's true, right?  

[00:17:10] Judy Murdoch: Yeah, yeah.  

[00:17:11] Harrison Moore: And I say to people that it would be an experience of coaching. 

It wouldn't be a freebie. It would be a valuable gift that people pay hundreds of dollars for you, and I want you to treat it like you are paying hundreds of dollars for it, because then you are gonna arrive and take it more seriously. 

So look, not everybody wants to go into coaching. That's absolutely fine, right? The important thing is that if they say no, you respect it and if the discovery call was effective, they walk off into the sunset with a little bit more clarity or a couple of insights that are really important to 'em about what they actually want to do. 

[00:17:47] Judy Murdoch: That's right. 

[00:17:48] Harrison Moore: So it's a win. It's a win for them anyway. 

[00:17:50] Judy Murdoch: That's right 

[00:17:51] Harrison Moore: Now some people say, oh, I don't like the idea of taking without giving back. Right? That's quite a common,  

[00:17:57] Judy Murdoch: yes. 
 

[00:17:58] Harrison Moore: Source of discomfort for people, understandably. And if ever that point comes up, then all I say is that, Hey, look, I build gifted coaching sessions into my business model, which is true I do, right? Like, I account for that and expect to give some gifts to some people some of the time. 

So I tell them that and I say, look, it's really important you understand. I'm not expecting you to formalize anything with me At the end of it, this is all enjoyable for me, valuable for you. The pleasure is all mine. I love this work. So, it's up to you and the people that wanna do it will say yes. 

Then you set up the gifted coaching experience. Now, sometimes I've given more than one, right? Like, if I get to the end of a coaching session with someone and it just really feels like moving to an offer is like premature, then I'll trust that instinct and I'll be like, i'm not gonna do it yet. I'm gonna wait until we've worked together a little bit more until it feels like it's redder. Now I'll come back to this later as well about how I'm able to do that and take my time with it. 'cause that's an important bit of context for people listening. So that's the experience of coaching. 

And then we have a, the fourth touch point, which is an offer and decision call. And the reason it's wise to have that as a separate standalone call rather than just like squeezed on at the end of a gifted coaching experience is by the end of a gifted coaching experience, people are often processing like lots of new thinking, new perspectives, maybe some of it's uncomfortable as well, and like new and fresh and scary. The last thing people want at that moment is to have to make a decision about spending money and committing to something more long lasting. So I think it's really important- don't make them make a decision about it then. Create a different space for that next week or a few days after that honors the coaching process, right? Let's them have time to deal with what they've, come up with in the session. Okay. So then moving to the offer and decision call. I usually make those an hour. I've tried making them 30 minutes and I always run into difficulties with running out of time. 

So I make those 60 minutes. And just to let you know, connect call doesn't need to be very long. It can be 15, 30 minutes.  

[00:20:19] Judy Murdoch: Mm-hmm.  
 

[00:20:20] Harrison Moore: Discovery call. I've done 90 minutes, but I believe you can be really effective in 60 minutes. Gifted coaching experiences, again, I've done 60 minutes, 90 minutes, and with the offer and decision call, I'd recommend giving 60 minutes space for that. 

And the reason is the offer and decision call is a opportunity for three things to happen. One, first of all, you want to reflect on what the person gained from your previous experiences, your previous conversations.  

[00:20:54] Judy Murdoch: Mm-hmm.  
 

[00:20:55] Harrison Moore: It's an opportunity for them to like reconnect emotionally with the value they got from your coaching experience, right? That's a crucial point. Otherwise, they're not primed to really be able to understand on a feelings level why the conversation that you had was important and valuable. So that's the first step. The second part then in that call is to touch again, just lightly on what do they really want to create next, right? 

[00:21:27] Judy Murdoch: Mm-hmm.  
 

[00:21:28] Harrison Moore: And that's a crucial step that I've skipped over. And it left a lot of value on the table, because you wanna give people an opportunity to summarize a few days after the coaching experience, what they really, really want to create. 

And often in the time since the coaching experience, they've slept a few nights, they've spoken to their spouse, they've had a chance to look at things from different perspectives, and they've often got even more clarity on what they want to build and why. 

[00:21:53] Judy Murdoch: Mm-hmm. 
 

[00:21:54] Harrison Moore: So you want to give people an opportunity to talk about that. Then you've got something that you're both holding in your hand to say, this is what's at stake, this is the value, right? 

[00:22:03] Judy Murdoch: Yes. 
 

[00:22:03] Harrison Moore: This is why it's important that you want to do this now- or not, right? And at that point, only once those things have been established, then I would share an offer about what I think we could do together, and I won't go into that here 'cause that's a whole other conversation around a coach's packaging and how they price themselves. But at the moment, I've tried to keep it simple. I have like three month, six month, or 12 month packages. And when I give people an offer, it's not just to coach with me for 12 months is this much, it's in 12 months here is what I think we could do together. 

And then I've taken the time to prepare a realistic strategy with concrete deliverables and things that we could work towards together. And even if those things change during the coaching process, which they tend to do, it's really important to give people something tangible to grab a hold of, right? This is something I've learned the hard way, but I've also been told it by senior coaches. Nobody actually wants a coach and nobody gives a shit what the coaching looks like or how it works. 

[00:23:12] Judy Murdoch: Yeah. Correct. 

[00:23:14] Harrison Moore: People want the transformation. They want an improved relationship or they want the project launched or they want the problem solved.  

[00:23:20] Judy Murdoch: That's correct. That is absolutely, that's very wise. Very wise.  

[00:23:24] Harrison Moore: After you give the offer , the final thing about the offer and decision call, the reason I've recently made them 60 minutes is because usually after you've shared the offer, people have some questions or some discomfort about the price, right? Because it's a big investment for people in terms of both time and money. 

[00:23:47] Judy Murdoch: Indeed. 
 

[00:23:49] Harrison Moore: And so, inevitably people have questions about like, you know, I might need to save up for this for a few months, or I might need to talk to my wife or my husband, or I might need to move some money around, or whatever. 

There could be a host of things that come up for them. And one of the really cool things that I'm learning as a result of spending time with these other coaches is rather than just being like, okay, cool, let me know.  

[00:24:16] Judy Murdoch: Yes.  
 

[00:24:18] Harrison Moore: Which almost always inevitably leads to a dead end. 'cause people won't get back to you. 

[00:24:24] Judy Murdoch: Yeah. 
 

[00:24:25] Harrison Moore: And more importantly, you as the coach are then left chasing them, which is just not good. That's not a healthy dynamic for an equal coaching partnership, right? Nobody wants to feel needy and nobody wants to feel chased and like harried basically. 

[00:24:38] Judy Murdoch: It's not a good dynamic for a relationship.  

[00:24:40] Harrison Moore: No. So, there's tremendous value in, slowing down and saying to people if they say, you know, I need to talk to my husband about it in saying to them, um, what do you need to talk to him about?  

[00:24:52] Judy Murdoch: Mm-hmm. Uhhuh now,  

[00:24:53] Harrison Moore: This is obviously a bit sensitive and you have to ask for permission to do this, and you have to go slowly and gently. 

But the point I'm making is as a coach this just comes back to principles of coaching, I think, which is like, people have plenty of Yes men or Yes women in their life that will 

[00:25:11] Judy Murdoch: mm-hmm. 
 

[00:25:12] Harrison Moore: Give them feedback and be honest to a point, but really are there to protect them. Tell them everything's gonna be okay and let them off the hook and make excuses for them and 

[00:25:20] Judy Murdoch: Right. Yeah. 

[00:25:21] Harrison Moore: Then validate their inconsistencies in their bs, right?  

[00:25:25] Judy Murdoch: Yes.  
 

[00:25:26] Harrison Moore: And actually a coach, nobody wants a coach that's gonna do that. They want a coach who is gonna hold them to account and say, well, wait, just slow down a second. Let's make sure that the reason you are backing out of this decision right now isn't due to some larger pattern in your life that makes you walk away from big decisions when you actually should walk towards them, for example. 

[00:25:54] Judy Murdoch: Yeah. 
 

[00:25:54] Harrison Moore: And you can have a really fruitful conversation with a person, as long as it's done respectfully.  

[00:25:59] Judy Murdoch: Yes. 
 

[00:26:00] Harrison Moore: And I'm going into the weeds a little bit here, but I just wanted to give you one example of why the offering decision call is really important to have as a standalone meeting. 

[00:26:08] Judy Murdoch: Agreed. Um, and if I again, may say something that in itself is really good coaching.  

[00:26:15] Harrison Moore: Hmm.  
 

[00:26:17] Judy Murdoch: Just asking people to really think about, why are you doing this? Do you really need to? We're helping people kind of get some of these unconscious patterns that might hold them back. 

[00:26:27] Harrison Moore: Exactly. And here's the thing, right? Some people might get offended by how confrontational the coaches being, especially in an offering decision call when money's being discussed, right? But I would argue that the way that you show up in those calls should be the same way that you show up in the coaching container, right? 

The coaches are there to honor the full potential of a person, even if that means ignoring their current excuses and Bs and, escape route or whatever, then it, then I don't see how you shouldn't at least strive to ask people to explain themselves when they say, I need to move some money around, or I need to speak to my wife, right?  

[00:27:17] Judy Murdoch: Yeah, no, totally, totally agree. 

[00:27:18] Harrison Moore: So anyway, the offering decision call is always fruitful. They're really good fun. I enjoy them a lot. And they are an opportunity to get tremendous value out of it. 

So that's the process. Now you're probably thinking, oh my God, this is a lot of time investment that goes into building these relationships. And that's true. And I said that I'd come back to a couple of things earlier, one of which was how I'm able to do this. Well, just to be completely transparent, I have some savings that have allowed me to slow down and treat my business like this. 

I think that's worth saying. If you're in a really difficult financial position, this kind of like slow unfolding relationship building might not be possible in the time that you have to spend on it. Maybe. So I think it's important for me, I can't just sit here and espouse the benefit of this way of doing it and not mention that I'm able to take my time 'cause I've got some savings. 

The other thing I want to say is that all of this, this is a framing point. All of these enrollment conversations are so labor intensive and time consuming. 

Oh my god, right? Which is true. Now that that perspective is from the perspective of the coach, and it's very much like, what do I the coach stand to win or lose? And it's very kind of inward looking. Okay.  

[00:28:38] Judy Murdoch: Yeah.  
 

[00:28:38] Harrison Moore: Now there's a totally other perspective that we can choose to take on this, which is the perspective of the prospect or the client. 

[00:28:44] Judy Murdoch: Yes. Yes. Exactly.  

[00:28:46] Harrison Moore: From their perspective, all of these things are a gift. They are, right? 

[00:28:52] Judy Murdoch: Yes. Mm-hmm.  

[00:28:54] Harrison Moore: The discovery call is a gift you're giving these people literally, like that might be the most meaningful conversation they've had all year.  

[00:29:02] Judy Murdoch: Yeah.  
 

[00:29:04] Harrison Moore: And of course the experience of coaching is also a gift. 

So if as the coach you are feeling a bit nervous about your skillset or your right to reach out to people and ask them, invite them, if you've got any issues at all with like self-esteem or, self-worth with regards to this. And I had this as well. The way that I got around it was flipping this script and thinking, wait a minute, I'm giving gold away here. 

Like, I'm literally giving gold to people. I'm putting gold coins in people's hands.  

[00:29:40] Judy Murdoch: Mm-hmm.  
 

[00:29:41] Harrison Moore: As soon as I started to see it like that, I just found that I was able to be much more confident and much more sincere as well.  

[00:29:49] Judy Murdoch: Yeah.  
 

[00:29:50] Harrison Moore: And I realize I'm talking a lot and if there are like important questions that you wanna ask, I do wanna just check in and give you a chance to ask them. 

[00:29:58] Judy Murdoch: Well, I think what might be helpful is for you to just briefly go back and help people know where you are in the process. So what are the calls that have been done so far? How has the relationship progressed? And then, what is that gonna lead to? 

[00:30:16] Harrison Moore: Hmm. Okay. So there were four calls before a coaching partnership was created. There was the initial connect call where you just came together to shoot the shit, touch base, find some shared interests, and have a bit of a laugh. There was the discovery call, which is all about giving them space and time to really think about what they wanna make and why. 

[00:30:38] Judy Murdoch: Okay. Okay.  

[00:30:41] Harrison Moore: Then there was a gifted coaching experience or two. 

[00:30:44] Judy Murdoch: Okay. 
 

[00:30:45] Harrison Moore: In which, you coach them on whatever it is that they feel is most important to work on towards this vision of theirs. And then you've had the offer and decision call where you've mapped out what you think you could work on together. 

They've had an opportunity to tweak it, add things to it, remove things from it. You've given them your offer. Either they've accepted it or they've said no, or they've had some yes buts and you've had a chance to talk to them about those Yes buts and maybe even coach them a little bit in that space. 

So you've had four touch points now. 

[00:31:18] Judy Murdoch: Okay. 
 

[00:31:18] Harrison Moore: And then what you'll do is you'll move into a coaching partnership.  

[00:31:22] Judy Murdoch: One other question for you, Harrison. I recall in, I think maybe the offer call where you and I talked you, you also had a couple additional questions for me, which were, one was, I think, what are you agreeing to? 

[00:31:36] Harrison Moore: Yeah.  
 

[00:31:37] Judy Murdoch: And then there was another question as well. I really liked that you really want to help people be really clear about what kind of a commitment they're making. Because again, as you said, sometimes we're people pleasers and we have a tendency to say yes. 

[00:31:55] Harrison Moore: Mm-hmm. 
 

[00:31:56] Judy Murdoch: Even though we haven't really thought it through. 

So, do you wanna speak to those?  

[00:32:01] Harrison Moore: Yeah, I remember the questions. They were towards the end of the offer and decision call. 

[00:32:06] Judy Murdoch: Mm-hmm. 
 

[00:32:07] Harrison Moore: I'd already given you an offer.  

[00:32:09] Judy Murdoch: Right.  
 

[00:32:09] Harrison Moore: And we discussed it and you'd accepted it after some discussion and then I asked you a couple more questions, right? And one of the questions was around testing the Yes.  

[00:32:21] Judy Murdoch: Right.  
 

[00:32:21] Harrison Moore: Like, what are you actually saying yes to? And the reason that that's a really important question to explore is like you said, clarity and commitment is really, really important. And  

[00:32:31] Judy Murdoch: Right.  
 

[00:32:31] Harrison Moore: As a coach, I only want to work with people that are all in, and if there's any, any, any sense in which somebody is just people pleasing and saying yes to like placate me. I mean, it's not happened yet, but I've been told it can happen. 

[00:32:46] Judy Murdoch: Mm-hmm. 
 

[00:32:46] Harrison Moore: So it's a little bit about making sure that people aren't just trying to please me, but it's mostly about giving the other person another opportunity to be like, this is what I'm doing and why. The more opportunities you give people to get clarity on their what and their why, the better, the more progress they will make, the more clarity they will have. So that was the first question. And then the second one will have probably been like, how are you going to talk yourself out of this between now and our first session? 

[00:33:15] Judy Murdoch: Yeah. Yeah. I, I think that was the other question you asked me.  

[00:33:19] Harrison Moore: This is a great question. Even the most enthusiastic and ambitious coaching client will- if there's a week or two between saying yes and having the first session, they will find ways to talk themselves out of it, right? 

[00:33:32] Judy Murdoch: Absolutely cognitive dissonance, right?  

[00:33:35] Harrison Moore: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So rather than just kind of ignoring that and hoping for the best, right?  

[00:33:39] Judy Murdoch: Yeah.  
 

[00:33:40] Harrison Moore: It's very much in the spirit of coaching, like tackle it, like name it. Yeah.  

[00:33:44] Judy Murdoch: Right. Yeah.  

[00:33:45] Harrison Moore: So it's like, what are all the ways you're gonna talk yourself out of it? 

Now some people say, I'm not, don't worry, I'm not. And it's like, you probably will. And what do you think the way, and they might, and then they say, oh, well, you know, well actually now you think about it. I'm seeing my friends on Sunday and if I end up talking about it to them, I know they'll take the piss out of me. 

And that might make me think it's a mistake or they might say, oh, well, I tend to just go into these nose dives worrying about my finances. 

[00:34:13] Judy Murdoch: Right, yes, for sure. It, but the money thing is huge, you know?  

[00:34:19] Harrison Moore: Yeah.  
 

[00:34:20] Judy Murdoch: That's a huge thing. That in itself is like a huge coaching topic.  

[00:34:24] Harrison Moore: Yeah, absolutely. And so, hopefully people can talk about what they think might stop them or contribute to them sort of backtracking and in true coaching spirit, you say, how can I support you to make sure 

[00:34:41] Judy Murdoch: right 
 

[00:34:42] Harrison Moore: that that doesn't happen. 

[00:34:43] Judy Murdoch: What comes up for me, Harrison, as I'm thinking about it, like another common one might be, I've worked with coaches in the past. The relationships didn't go very well. I often will hear, they were really nice people- everybody always says that- they're really nice people, but I spent a lot of money and I don't feel like I have very much to show for that investment of time and money and energy. 

[00:35:06] Harrison Moore: Mm-hmm.  
 

[00:35:06] Judy Murdoch: That's a painful outcome to have as a client. Yeah.  

[00:35:10] Harrison Moore: Yeah. I bet. And I, I, I have to admit, I, I can't speak with a lot of authority about that particular topic just because I'm, I'm relatively early on in my coaching journey and I haven't had many experiences like that yet. 

Right. But, I can say a few things about it and, I predict that if that happens, it's, it could be a few things. One, it could be that that the coach didn't complete the agreement well, right? What that means is a couple of things. It's like number one, you have to complete the work that you originally set out to do in the beginning. 

[00:35:51] Judy Murdoch: Mm-hmm. 
 

[00:35:51] Harrison Moore: Whatever that looks like, right? 

[00:35:53] Judy Murdoch: Mm-hmm. 
 

[00:35:53] Harrison Moore: There has to be, there has to be a sense of having completed the thing that they hired you to do. 

So that's the first thing. And then the second thing, and this is even more important, as human beings, we're actually quite bad at measuring the value of things that we've 

[00:36:09] Judy Murdoch: Yes. 
 

[00:36:10] Harrison Moore: Created right. So what I do is, about three quarters of the way through a partnership, I'll start to ask the client to reflect and actually try to put value on the things that they've created. And so what this does is, it makes sure that the things they've done during the coaching experience aren't forgotten. And I actually go as far as to ask them to try to put some kind of tangible value on it, such as money or time or impact.  

[00:36:45] Judy Murdoch: Yes. That's very wise, I think. Now there's one other piece I wanna speak to and that is I do think there are coaches or people who call themselves coaches who i'm not really sure they are coaches. I think they're more in the play space of being, a consultant or maybe like a sales expert type of thing. Where I, this was my experience of, of hiring a few people with the outcome of I wanted to build my coaching practice. And they said, yes, of course I can help you. 

But what they were really doing was they were really taking me down, what I would call a very, a very traditional sales training process, which is really correct. Make lots of phone calls. Go out for lots of engagements. Here's the way you talk to somebody. I wouldn't call that coaching. I would call that more like being in a sales class with a trainer who is saying, you gotta make a hundred calls a day. 

And one of the common experiences I had with these folks was if I said, it's hard, I have resistance. Now, a coach would say, Hmm, let's talk about that. Let's talk about your resistance. What's going on? What kinds of thoughts are you having? These folks did not say that to me. What they would say is, well, just think about how much money you'll have, 

okay? Or sometimes I'll hear you're not grateful enough. You're not trying hard enough, you don't want it enough. That is not to me the way a coach talks. Maybe a traditional football coach might say, you guys don't want it bad enough, you're lazy. But that's not how, in my opinion, a professional trained business coach talks to their clients. 

So I'm just bringing out that there are many people who use the label coach, but in my experience, they're not really doing the work of a coach. They're just being maybe like a motivational teacher, you know, that kind of thing.  

[00:39:05] Harrison Moore: Yeah. This is a really important point actually 'cause what we're talking about is like role definition. It's only, I mean, it is the sort of thing that's like not important to people if, unless they're bothered about like, coaching or consulting, right? But like, if you're serious about, being coached or being consulted to, or, or being a consultant or being a coach, like, these definitions are really important. 

And I think on the internet, we've got this proliferation of self-styled experts in different things and 

[00:39:32] Judy Murdoch: mm-hmm. 
 

[00:39:33] Harrison Moore: You know, and that's great. I mean, that's one of the things I love about the internet is everyone has an opportunity to claim a niche and develop 

[00:39:39] Judy Murdoch: Yes, agreed. 

[00:39:40] Harrison Moore: Unique, unique expertise that can help people. But one of the outcomes of that unfortunately is that there tends to be a lot of like blurred definitions between  

[00:39:49] Judy Murdoch: Correct.  

[00:39:50] Harrison Moore: Terms like coaching or mentor or guide or teacher. 

[00:39:53] Judy Murdoch: Yes. Yes.  

[00:39:55] Harrison Moore: The most important definition for me- I'm not really into definitions really, but I think there is an important one, which is what distinguishes coaching from any of those other roles. And it's simply that in my mind, a coach isn't teaching anybody anything. What I'm trying to do as a coach is get better and better and better at helping other people develop their own self-directed learning. 

[00:40:24] Judy Murdoch: Mm-hmm. Mm. Very interesting. That's really interesting, Harrison. 

[00:40:29] Harrison Moore: One of the many things that attracted me to coaching was that I spent most of my life approaching my, all of my relationships, whether that was with my, like parents or my wife or my friends or whoever through this paradigm of advice given  

[00:40:49] Judy Murdoch: mm-hmm. Yes. Yes.  

[00:40:51] Harrison Moore: And honestly, I can only speak for myself, but giving advice, wanting to fix other people's problems and help them out is the most natural thing in the world to me, right? Like, that's how I grew up.  

[00:41:01] Judy Murdoch: It is for a lot of people.  

[00:41:03] Harrison Moore: And fortunately, I've come to realize that it's not the most powerful way to help people. 

[00:41:09] Judy Murdoch: Agreed. Yes, I agree.  

[00:41:10] Harrison Moore: There's lots of reasons why it's problematic, even if it's meant in the kindest, most compassionate way.  

[00:41:17] Judy Murdoch: Agreed.  
 

[00:41:18] Harrison Moore: Giving advice, even solicited advice, still implies a power imbalance. It still implies that person giving advice knows more or can do more than the person asking for advice. 

Now, I'm not saying that there's no place for advice giving. Sometimes it's necessary, but I'm just saying that's not what gets me excited. What gets me excited is watching the power of well chosen questions.  

[00:41:45] Judy Murdoch: Agreed. Yes.  

[00:41:47] Harrison Moore: Activate something in the other person's brain, right? 

So that they become the protagonist of their own learning.  

[00:41:55] Judy Murdoch: Yes.  
 

[00:41:55] Harrison Moore: And then, of course, they not only understand and own their own insights, but they remember them forever. 

[00:42:04] Judy Murdoch: Precisely. No, you're right, you're right. I was reading something about how the educational system that was designed in, let's say, the 19th century, in western cultures was largely around creating good little factory workers. 

Obedient factory workers who knew the rules and knew what was safe, and knew what wasn't safe. And, their job was to like, do stuff, you turn lovers or do this or do that. And we now live in a culture, we're so post-industrial, we're in a, an a really like an, an age that we have not ever experienced where we've got ai, we have amazing technology and we have to get really good at asking questions. Like we have to be the compass.  

[00:42:52] Harrison Moore: Hundred percent.  

[00:42:54] Judy Murdoch: We need to be the compass. There's not a map. There's no map anymore because we're discovering the map. It's like being in space, right? You're going into new frontiers, you've never seen it before. So you have to be a compass. 

And that's all about asking questions. And I mean, I am somebody like you. I love questions. I love asking them, I love answering them. I think there's something very creative and expansive about questions.  

[00:43:20] Harrison Moore: Oh, yeah, a hundred percent. I couldn't agree more. 

I, I don't, I don't buy into like one size fits all solutions or. You know, cure all solutions and things like that. I'm a bit skeptical of anything that's a bit too black and white. 

[00:43:32] Judy Murdoch: Me too. Yes.  

[00:43:34] Harrison Moore: However, I make an exception, one exception for questions. I mean, I could talk about this forever. 

I honestly, honestly think that questions are a skeleton key.  

I can't think of a single problem or a single challenging or exciting situation where they will not empower you and take you to the next level. I mean, the, the stuff about the role that questions play in coaching is, is obvious. Most people that are interested in coaching will understand that. 

[00:44:03] Judy Murdoch: As you know, I really love talking to you and I love listening to you. And this was like such a, masterclass for coaches in terms of having this enrollment process and how do we do it in a way that has integrity and feels good for us and for the client. 

[00:44:20] Harrison Moore: Yeah.  
 

[00:44:20] Judy Murdoch: For folks that do wanna get in touch with you, how do they find you?  

[00:44:25] Harrison Moore: The easiest way is to find me on Substack, Harrison Moore. And my, my substack is called Creative Thought Partner. So just, just find me there and find a way to DM me or whatever, or comment on something and I'll get back to you. 

Can I say one final thing to wrap up?  

[00:44:41] Judy Murdoch: You certainly may. Yes, please.  

[00:44:42] Harrison Moore: The second part of your question at the start was what practical things can people do, right? I know I've probably offered a bunch of stuff already that is fairly practical. But I wanna say one thing , because I think it closes off the conversation about questions really nicely. 

You described the conversation today as like a masterclass for coaches.  

[00:44:59] Judy Murdoch: Yeah. 
 

[00:44:59] Harrison Moore: And what I wanna say is that every single thing I've learned and that I'm practicing right now began by me asking other coaches questions. 

[00:45:08] Judy Murdoch: And I can, I can put this into practice myself in my own practice now, and I will do this with the understanding. I will not do perfectly. I will probably do it very awkwardly and I will probably at times cringe inside. But I think it's important to do it, just do it, put it into practice. And the other thing I wanna say, which is a little bit of a broader idea, we can never under the power of trust and safety for our clients. 

Like when they bring a coach in, in some ways, they definitely have an expectation of what they want. But I wanna say too, that any significant growth we ever accomplish, it's gonna be uncomfortable. It's gonna be uncomfortable. And if you're gonna be uncomfortable, if you wanna be uncomfortable with somebody who you really feel has your back and really cares about you, and that's something a coach should bring to their practice is that you genuinely, you're really fond of your client and you genuinely care about them. 

You're not attached to their success, but you are very much there. You are a foundation for them. You're very much there for them. So coaching is magical as you, you and I both know.  

[00:46:29] Harrison Moore: It is, it's tremendous. We should teach it in schools. Everybody should coach and be coached. 

[00:46:35] Judy Murdoch: Agree. Absolutely. We'd be a better world for it, I think.  

[00:46:39] Harrison Moore: Definitely.  

[00:46:40] Judy Murdoch: Thank you my friend. This was delightful as always.  

[00:46:43] Harrison Moore: Yeah, really good. Love it. Would love to do it again.  

[00:46:46] Judy Murdoch: Okay, thanks. Thanks, Herson. Have a good evening. I'll see you. I'll see you soon. Okay.  

[00:46:51] Harrison Moore: See you soon. Thank you.  

[00:46:53] Judy Murdoch: Bye-Bye.