You Can't Think Your Way Out of Money Problems - Interview with Nicole Jones

The relationship between women and money continues to be a very live topic for me because, hmm, I’m a woman and a business owner and I continue to have a prickly relationship with earning and having money.

That’s why I invited Nicole Jones to be this week’s interview. 

Nicole Jones is a licensed counselor who helps intelligent accomplished women create productive, prosperous relationships with earning and having more money.

Learn more about Nicole and her work here.

If you find the Marketing Root Work podcast valuable, please become a subscriber! 

My mission is to change the way small business owners market themselves and it’s very important to me that I reach as many people as possible.

Transcript

Marketing Root Work Podcast - 
Nicole Jones

TRANSCRIPT


Judy Murdoch

Hello. I'm Judy Murdoch, and welcome to the Marketing Root Work Podcast. Today my guest is Nicole Jones, and we are going to be talking about a very interesting topic, a very potent topic, women and money. 


So Nicole, would you jump in, introduce yourself, and just say a little bit about the type of work you're doing?  


Nicole Jones

Yeah. Hi, and thank you so much for having me, Judy. I'm so glad to be here, and I love talking about women and money. I am a licensed professional counselor and a financial therapist and coach in Longmont, Colorado, and I work with women around their relationship with money. 


So I help women heal all the stuff that's happened to them that has to do with money and that doesn't have anything to do with money, but it still impacts their relationship with money so they feel more at ease with it. Like, that's the goal is just to be able to look at your bank account and feel like, "Okay, I'm gonna be okay no matter what the number is." 


And just to really process emotions around it and process trauma around anything with money, and I do that using... You know, we talk, but I do a lot of things like brain spotting, which is a brain/body based intervention that really gets to the core of things, and I implement a lot of spirituality and Ayurveda into the work that I do. 


So it's a really like holistic, deep, deep work that I do with the women that I work with, and that's just not even always about the money. A lot of times it has nothing to do with the money, but the money is the way in.  


Judy Murdoch

I agree. It's not the money. The money is more of a trigger point for people. 


And it has a way of activating all of those... I refer to them as gremlins in terms of just like all those little voices inside of us that ultimately are protective. Try to keep us small and invisible so that, we don't get hurt. But, they're greatly outdated. 


Nicole Jones

Mm-hmm.  


Judy Murdoch

So Nicole you've done quite a few different things in the course of your career. So speak a little bit about, what was your journey like? Where did you begin, and how did things evolve for you so that this ended up being your focal point for your work? 


Nicole Jones

Oh my gosh, this, where do I begin? It's like at the very beginning of the story, you know, a healer. When I was a young kid my mom always says I would, like she'd have a headache and I'd put my hand on her forehead- And try to help her feel better. So I think my journey as being a healer on this earth has really started, is just part of who I am. 


But then, I've been in private practice since 2013 as a mental health therapist. After I had my kids, I was like, "I'm never going back into private practice. I'm never doing it again." Because prior to my children, I was doing really difficult work in residential treatment centers, working with kids that had severe trauma, reactive attachment disorder. 


These kids that I didn't even know that children behaved in the way that they did, and as a result of what had happened to them in their lives. So when I had my own kids, I was like, "I'm not going back into that world. I can't. I'm just not. I just can't do that." Mostly because I wanted to be present. 


It was such stressful work that I wanted to be present for my own kids. I was like, "Wow, attachment's a big deal. I'm gonna do this the best I can." So I actually left the field for a while, and I went back to school and got my MBA. And, I honestly don't know. It was like a serendipitous process. It just all fell into place. 


I was meant to be there. I'd never taken a business course in my life, and suddenly there I am at CU Denver in an MBA program. I was like, did not expect myself to be there. And then I got a job in corporate America at an insurance agency where I was doing mental health work and business. 


Like, it was kind of both. To me, it was like a way in to get into the business world, but still using my skills. And then I went to therapy for my own anxiety, and my therapist did brain spotting with me. And I was like, "Oh my gosh, if I could do this work, I could be a therapist." And it, reignited my desire to wanna work with people. 


So I left that place and started my private practice in 2013. And and since then, I've been really focusing on anxiety, motherhood, the transition to motherhood, perinatal mood and anxiety disorders, grief, trauma, and all along, the way really deepening my experience and training in brain spotting. 


So . During that whole thing, I was trying to figure out how to grow a business, and I didn't know how to grow a business. I was like, "I have an MBA, but I don't know how to grow a business." I have an MBA with a focus in sustainability. So they didn't really teach me anything about how to start a business at my MBA program. 


I just kept hiring coaches and hiring coaches and hiring coaches, and "Well, maybe I should do more coaching. Like, I could make a little more money that way, or I could do this, or I could do that," spending tens of thousands of dollars on coaches. And I'd get a little ways, and then I would fall back. 


I would, have an influx of clients, and then they would go away. I'd have an influx, and then they'd go away. And I was like, "What is going on? What is happening? I'm doing all the work. I'm doing the mindset work. I'm writing my goals out every night. I'm writing my affirmations. " My house was decorated with sticky notes and all the things to remember and to manifest and, listening to The Law of Attraction and doing all this stuff. 


And I'm like, "Why can't I have a sustainable income?" I was so frustrated. So I literally sat down one day in my bathroom I think I was sitting... I had, I was at, four clients, which is, was not enough for us to, maintain what we needed to maintain in our household. And I'm like, "Okay, God, if this is what my financial situation's supposed to be, just let me be okay with it." 


And, then I was like, "But wait a minute. I've been doing all this work around money." But I know as a brain spotting therapist that so much of the stuff That we have in our lives that color how we see the world and our perspective is stored in our limbic brain, and I'd done nothing around money. I've done no work around money in that way. 


For some reason I thought money was, outside of that scope, didn't count. I don't know. It was like, "Well, no, it's just money." But, oh my gosh, it's not just money. So I hired a brain spotting coach who worked with money, and everything in my business started changing. I m- I literally went from... 


And I don't want even love to talk about it this way because - my offer does not include guaranteeing that you're gonna make this much money, and that's, I just feel like that's out of integrity. But I did double my income the second half of the year, and the next year I got double my income from the year before, and every year since I've just been on a trajectory of increasing. 


Not doubling, but increasing. And I was like, "This is really interesting." For me it was the missing piece, was to do the work that I needed to do around my experiences with money, how I see myself, how I related to money, worthiness, belonging, like, all that stuff. And then I started helping therapists in my private practice grow their practices, and they were just, boom. 


It was just like watch it. I'm like, "What?" It like, time collapsed . It took me for years, and these therapists I was helping were, like, growing really amazing thriving practices in, a year. And I'm like, "What is going on?" And other, my other clients, I would help build their businesses as well. And so I just was like, "I think I'm onto something here with how I'm implementing spirituality and Ayurveda and balancing the body and doing this trauma work, money work." 


And so then that was two years ago, and I launched my Awakened Wealth course where I , I tie all of that together to help you heal your relationship with money, but it's just this way in. It's the way in to healing such deeper wounds. And so I call it Awakened Wealth because, I do talk a lot about money, but it's really awakening so much more in a person. 


It's, a holistic program to help you have a happier, more balanced, more easeful life, and money is one of the things that is a part of that. 


Judy Murdoch

That's fantastic. Thank you so much for sharing that. Wow, what a journey that you've had. And a journey that people are going on with you now.  


Nicole Jones

Mm-hmm.  


Judy Murdoch: So several questions came up for me as you were speaking. One question I wanted to ask you about was could you say a little bit more about brain spotting in layman's terms? 


Because I'm very intrigued by... you're the first person I've actually heard use that term. So yeah, could you speak to that a bit more?  


Nicole Jones: Yes. I was thinking that I probably would need to do that because it's not, as well known as EMDR. So have you heard of EMDR?  


Judy Murdoch: It's possible I have. Go ahead and talk about brain spotting.  


Nicole Jones

So, EMDR is more well known, and that's eye movement desensitization reprogramming. So you're going back and forth across your line of vision with a pointer or a pen or something, or you have little zapper things. 


And brain spotting came from EMDR. David Grand, the founder of brain spotting, was doing EMDR with a client, and he was going back and forth across her line of vision. She was a professional ice skater, and she couldn't do this specific maneuver, so he was working with her around performance enhancement. 


And EMDR is a trauma technique. Brain spotting, also a trauma technique. And he noticed that as he was going across this specific part of her vision, her eye would wobble. There would be a little eye wobble. So he had his, pen. This is my pointer. Like, he's like, "Just stay right here, and let's see what happens." 


She kept her eyes on the spot, and while she was looking there, she processed through all of this trauma and her experience around her parents getting divorced when she was a child. And she went on for just, 10, 15 minutes, and then the next day she did the ma- maneuver.  


Judy Murdoch

Hmm.  


Nicole Jones

She had this trauma, these experiences stored in her body that 


Were impacting her performance, and she didn't know. , When you're an adult, , you know cognitively your parents got divorced and that it was difficult, but you don't always know- that you're still holding the pain of that.  


Judy Murdoch

Correct.  


Nicole Jones

So brain spotting uses your brain spot, which is just a place in your visual field It's like an access point into a file in your brain- where it's like the divorce file. All the pain, all the stuff is stored there, and it like, shreds it.  


Judy Murdoch

Really?  


Nicole Jones

So you have, this emotional distance from it and not the same reaction, and your body is not functioning from that place of woundedness anymore.  


Judy Murdoch

That is really interesting. 


And you had said something about it's stored in our limbic brain? 


Nicole Jones

The emotional brain. So, like, when I did all my mindset work- and this is what traditional mindset coaches do, it's all, prefrontal cortex.  


Up here, your thinking brain- decision-making, analyzing, executive functioning, all that. But yet all of the stuff we have is back here, limbic brain, emotional brain, and this part of your brain is actually all day scanning, "Am I safe? Do I belong?" All day, all the time, and informing this part of your brain.  


. And you can't get to this, these deeper structures of the brain by just talking. 


Judy Murdoch

Yes.  


Nicole Jones

So we use the brain spot in brain spotting and the felt sense of the body. So it's when you think about money, I asked a client this the other day as I was checking in, I'm like, "What do you think about money?" She's like, "Oh." I'm like, "Okay. Feel that in your body. 


Let's see where you're looking. Let's find your brain spot, and you stay with that." Yeah. And they're usually listening to bilateral sounds. The bilateral sounds also help soothe the brain. I think they help us feel safe so we can start letting go of things. Because when we're stressed, we're holding tight onto our files. 


When we're a little more relaxed- we can, shred them a little more easily.  


Judy Murdoch

Oh, this is really interesting, because I think, so many people probably listening right now have gone through that experience of that mindset thing of sort of "Well, can't I just think myself out of-" this, right? Why can't I just... often, we know, sort of our, what I call, our homo sapien brain, which is, our come let us reason together brain, which is really awesome. But, you know, , these emotional parts of our brain are so powerful. I mean, they kept us alive. 


That's their job. In terms of just, like, how do we get along with our tribe? How do we make sure that we don't get kicked out of our tribe, it's very much around, getting along with other humans, and as you said, it's not a conscious thing. 


It's just, operating in the background. Yes, so that's one of the reasons, actually, I started my own business, Rootwork Marketing, because one of the issues I kept running into was I could tell people how to do marketing, we could come up with strategies, we could come up with plans, but if somebody was not able to, fully buy into it and fully embody It, it's just gonna have an effect on how they end up executing. 


So that was one of the reasons I started my business, was I wanted opportunities to kind of help people see, oh, you've got something going on here. What is it? What's the resistance?  


Nicole Jones

Yeah, and I think there are people who can do mindset work and run with it. And they're great. 


That's great. I was not that person. And so then when you're doing things like, the work you're doing with your clients or my clients or, me, it was just like, God, what's wrong with me? Like, why can't I, figure this out? You know, so-and-so's like attracting clients like crazy and, having, 10, 20K, thir- 30K, 50K months, or whatever. 


Like, in the coaching world, it's one of ... You hear about that all the time, and that's what's sold to you constantly. And you're like, "Ugh, what's wrong with me? Why can't I do that?" And some, of us just need deeper work, and that's okay.  


Judy Murdoch

Yeah. I think some people are just, they're wired to be really good at promotion. 


They're just good at it. Yeah. It's just something they enjoy doing. But most of us are not those people. It just happens that those people tend to be extremely visible and vocal, you know, of like in the virtual world. They're the people we hear about.  


Nicole Jones

Yeah, that's so true. I think some people are just so good at promotion or sales. 


I was in a coping, a coaching container, and she was just so good at sales. It's, it's amazing.  


Judy Murdoch

I have so much admiration for folks- like that. I think what's important is just to remember that it's a talent, just like you have a talent for what you do. I have a talent for what I do. 


Human beings, we all have different talents and abilities. , Which I think is actually really cool. It's just we get ourselves in trouble when we start to think, "Well, why am I not amazing at sales?" Well, it's because the world only needs so many salespeople. But we also need therapists, and we need marketing people, and we need bookkeepers. 


We need people with a variety of different talents to make it a good world. So yeah, that's kinda where I sit with it. I wanted to ask a little bit about the shifts, that brain spotting helps people with. I feel like we've already covered quite a bit of that. Is there anything perhaps that you have not spoken about that, that you would like to add? 


Nicole Jones

So brain spotting can work with those harder things that have happened to you in your life, and the kind of... One of the cool things about it is someone can say, "I don't know why I'm anxious about money. I have plenty. I have a healthy retirement. I have, I make six figures. My husband has a great job," my, or my partner or whatever. 


Like, "I don't know why. Like, I, my childhood was great." So that's one of the things about brain spotting is we don't have to know the reason.  


Judy Murdoch

Mm-hmm.  


Nicole Jones

And sometimes people will figure it out, and sometimes they just will feel better. It just kind of depends. And also, so there's that part of brain spotting that's really amazing, but then there's also the expansion side of brain spotting. 


So I can use brain spotting in a way where it's like drawing into you the qualities that you would like to experience in life. It's like- what would you like to experience around money? I'd like to feel calm and easeful or excited or, ambitious or whatever. And then we, I have a way I take them through that, and then we focus on bringing that to them, and that's kind of a fun way of working with it because we're not just focusing on the hard parts of life. 


Although, when you're brain spotting and you get into that, you know, deeper brain, you never know what's gonna come up. But still, I've seen it work so amazingly well. Like, let's just stay. Like, what do you want?  


Judy Murdoch

Mm-hmm, 


Nicole Jones

What do you want? And let's- Mm ... let's find those qualities within you, because they're there. 


Judy Murdoch

Mm-hmm,  


Nicole Jones

You definitely feel the opposite of them, so they have to be there. That's the rule, you know? You don't have one, you have the other. So, it can also help with the, it's called expansion brain spotting, so expanding into what you want. Oh. Just as much as working with the harder parts of life. 


Judy Murdoch

So Nicole, you're working specifically with women and money. Like, what are, if you could maybe speak to maybe one, two, three common- symptoms, if you will. Like, where, like, if I, I guess the way I might phrase this would be if you are struggling with filling your pipeline or you're struggling with charging enough. 


Just speak to a few of those symptoms that you typically see, women in their relationship with money.  


Nicole Jones

Yeah, I think charging is one of the bigger, it was one of the biggest issues is charging. And I hate to say even what I'm worth Because it's not just, it's not just that. 


It's even charging what is the standard in the field. You know, where I'm like how I have clients where they know they're charging less than someone else in their field in this area. But they really just can't see how they could charge that much. They aren't good enough. They don't have enough training. 


Like, if I just take this training- then I feel like I could charge this much. Or like, "Oh my God, I just charge this much? I need to go get better at what I do." 


Judy Murdoch

Nicole, what I often will hear f from women in particular, they'll say, "I want this to be accessible."  


Nicole Jones

Oh, yeah. 


Judy Murdoch

I hear that so much. And you know, I get it. I really do. There's a part of my heart that is just I really want to make what I do accessible to people. Mm-hmm. And at the same time, sometimes we end up attracting people who have money issues, and therefore, if you were to say, "This is what I charge," they would just be like, "I can't afford that. 


I just can't afford that. That's too much." Or, "Can you accommodate me in some way?" So it gets us into kind of slippery slope place. 


Nicole Jones

It's true in that it definitely ties into what I was going to say, which women tend to be ca- what I call financial fawners. 


So fawning is that nervous system response where we wanna make everyone feel okay and smooth the edges. And we don't wanna make other people uncomfortable or angry. So when we have our fees and what we're charging, and if that person's like, "Oh, that's too much," then we're immediately like, "Oh, okay. 


Well, let's see. I can slide for you."  


Judy Murdoch

Right.  


Nicole Jones

Yeah. Because that feels good, you know? And we're, we're not listening to our own needs of being able to pay for our own life, our businesses, our kids, our retirement, you know, all that stuff. But we tend to do that as women, just try to make it better for people. 


We feel bad taking money. We feel bad there can be a difficult time like sending invoices out, so they avoid it. And I recently had a colleague who had hundreds of thousands of dollars out in billing that she just never faced. Like, that's a fawning issue. And the thing is, if you're fawning in your financial life, you're probably fawning throughout your whole life. 


It's not just in one area. You're probably smoothing edges. You know, the kid that is, always making their parents laugh like, it's probably happening everywhere. But the charging is one of the biggest things. But I work with a lot of therapists and a lot of health healers and that is especially hard in the world of mental health therapy to charge better than they do  


Judy Murdoch

 I wanna run with this a little bit more 


I agree with what you're saying. And what also comes up for me is I am guessing there is a way to, on the one hand, be in integrity- with your fees, and at the same time... i've actually had some people who err more on the side of "Hey, that's what I charge. 


That's what I'm worth." There just feels like there's a lot of friction there. . And how, how do you speak to somebody - assuming that you do at times have somebody, and you get some of that resistance to your fees. 


How do you speak to somebody in a way which is respectful to you and respectful to them, but you're not, money fawning? You're just, creating, a container that's in integrity for you and the other person.  


Nicole Jones

Right. So the first thing that I'm thinking of is as the person who's setting the fees and receiving the fees, like that- Feeling at ease with your fees is important. 


So when I work with my clients- . i do, I have, I have a brain spotting protocol that I do with them on the low fee and the high fee.  


And so we work with the nervous system to find the fee that feels okay. Sometimes people can just be very rigid, like, "This is what I deserve and this is what I'm gonna charge," and-  


And, you know- that's fine. They can do that. But also, that can, sometimes also be coming from scarcity and and lack. And also it might not always be coming from a clean energy. Sometimes it's coming from clean energy, and sometimes it's not. 


So I think that's the goal is having your fee set in a way that it's coming from really clean energy.  


Not from scarcity and not from rigidity. But and then with my clients we're like actively, , "Okay, this is the fee now this year and how can you say this cleanly?" 


What's the thing you can say to your client? Like, "My fee's $100." You know? And I can say that. Good. Well, maybe there's a little bit, and that's okay. A little bit of eh is actually okay. 


'Cause it, sometimes I think it takes practice to say the fee that we decide and get used to that and hear, and then hear the yes. 


You know? It's like, "Ugh." You know?  


Judy Murdoch

Agree. I totally agree with you. Yes.  


Nicole Jones

Yeah. It takes a little bit of practice. So I work with my clients in that way, and I do think setting your fee in a way that it's coming from a place of nervous system cleanliness is a lot easier to express your fee as much as possible. 


And it does take a little bit of like, "Okay." This is my fee and I'm gonna say it. And then they're like, "Okay." And you're like, "All right." And then as you do that you're like, "Okay, this is just my fee," right? Right. And then you do it again the next year or whenever you decide to raise your rates, and it feels a little... 


There's a little bit there where you're like, "Yeah, this feels good," but it's gonna take a little practice again to, say, "Okay, this is my new fee and boom." And they're like, "Okay, great." And you're like, "All right, this is working." Does that answer your question?  


Judy Murdoch

It, it does. 


I'm curious, it just seems like women in particular- . really struggle with this whole thing around fees. Not to say that men don't have their own issues with money, because I know they do. It just does strike me that this feels like it's a woman thing. And I'm just curious, 


What do you think it is about our culture that makes it so hard for women to just, , have our fees and be okay with that?  


Nicole Jones

I think a lot of it has to do with our history with money. So, you know, we've only been able to walk into a bank and get a bank account since 1974. 


We always needed, a man's signature to do that. And, up until, I think it was, like, the late 1800s we were, like, under the law of coverture. So basically we were not even humans. We were owned by our husbands, and we couldn't own land. So we've got this real sordid history with money where we just haven't been able to have it. 


We haven't been able to manage it until, , obviously now. But most of our history, we don't have a solid base underneath us yet of learning to manage, be autonomous and independent with money. So I think it's in our fiber. And, you know, we're only a couple generations into being that financial autonomy where you can walk in and get your bank account and not have to ask your dad or your husband or your brother to go do that for you. 


And so it's like for so long we've been used to just given, being, taking whatever we were given, you know? So it's like, "Oh, here's your allowance. You know, I know my grandma had an allowance, you know? Both, like, "Here's what you can go spend."  


Judy Murdoch

Right.  


Nicole Jones

You know, they didn't have access to the money. 


Judy Murdoch

Mm-hmm.  


Nicole Jones

And so it's like, here. So we're kind of, in a way, used to taking scraps and what we can get.  


Judy Murdoch

Wow.  


Nicole Jones

So I think it's hard now we're, that we're becoming more financial autonomous, financially autonomous, and there are more people out there speaking about financial feminism and, like, empowering us. 


You know, there's a few voices in the world that are like, "Okay, let's figure out how to make six figures. Let's figure out how to, invest. Let's figure out how to do these things," but they're new voices-  


Judy Murdoch

Mm-hmm ...  


Nicole Jones

That we're just not used to. Yeah. And so here we are out there making our own money when we've just, we've got this history of taking scraps. 


So we are like, "Oh, God. Okay. I'm gonna, I'm gonna charge this much and are you gonna pay me?" You know get real, real meek about it.  


Judy Murdoch

Yeah.  


Nicole Jones

It's changing. It's beautiful and it's changing, and there are definitely... And this is not all women are like this, but most. But I would say the majority, but definitely not all women. 


There's some women who, who know, and they're, they're out there doing amazing things.  


Judy Murdoch

I have a younger sister who's completely empowered with money. I mean, she's always been just a financial person, operations person. She's really comfortable with it. Um, clearly I did not get that DNA.  


Is, this is a different question, but it's related. 


Um, so I have been thinking a lot lately about, I don't know if business models is quite the right word for it, but I have been thinking, because I am nearing retirement age, and I have been thinking a lot about this idea of, how do you create a business where you are working, and you're making a contribution, and you have clients-  


Nicole Jones

Mm-hmm 


Judy Murdoch

And you are earning money, but you're not going all out either? And this came up for me because I was at a webinar a couple days ago for, it's for a marketing program, and what really struck me was that the organization is made up mostly, from what I see, of men who are probably between 30 and 45. 


Nicole Jones

Mm.  


Judy Murdoch

So they're, that they're at that age. And the other thing was that they were definitely, in, maximum sales mode. Meaning, the focus is really on getting business and earning money, and I'm not at that point in my life anymore. And I am guessing, too, that there are women, who have a family, for example. 


They do not want explosive sales. They don't need necessarily, a half-million-dollar practice. But they do want something that works in their life.  


Nicole Jones

Mm-hmm.  


Judy Murdoch

And I'm curious if, what you have to say about that because- I have to say, I don't find a lot of useful information out there in terms of, how do we have a business that is enough? 


Nicole Jones

Mm-hmm.  


Judy Murdoch

But at the same time, we don't have to be masters of the universe in sales. It's okay to have a business that's making a moderate amount of money.  


Nicole Jones

Yeah, it is okay So the first thing that comes to mind, which is probably a little more on the alternative side of things, is being the place of trust that you have exactly what you need and that everything that you need will come to you And that's, so if you're, like, in that, you know, I've been in that time in my life where I was, when I started my practice, that was, , 2013. 


My, kids were young, you know? And I look back on it and I was kind of frustrated it wouldn't get, go faster. But also, at the same time, I couldn't have handled it.  


Judy Murdoch

Exactly.  


Nicole Jones

I couldn't have handled more. I didn't want to handle more. I wanted to take them to the pool on a summer day. 


You know? I wanted to pick them up from school every day. I wanted to go to the school events and volunteer. Like, I wanted that.  


Judy Murdoch

Mm-hmm.  


Nicole Jones

But then it was also that, the strain of the money thing. We, felt that. And now I, being on the other side, we always had everything we needed.  


Judy Murdoch

Mm-hmm.  


Nicole Jones

Always. And I'm just now more and more getting into that side of, just trusting that everything that I need will come, and everything that I don't need anymore is gonna go. 


So if it's, if I've got too many clients and I'm winding down for retirement, things are gonna soften exactly the way they're supposed to. So it's just trusting the unfolding of life.  


Judy Murdoch

Mm-hmm. 


Nicole Jones

Yep. And it's, that's hard when you have traumas in your life where life has not worked out in your, what feels like in your best interest. 


Judy Murdoch

Well, I'll say too that I think in our culture, I don't think there's much in the way of models out there-  


Nicole Jones

Right ...  


Judy Murdoch

Who are doing a good job of, talking about how do you do those. Because I, I do have clients who are moms with little kids.  


Nicole Jones

Yeah.  


Judy Murdoch

And they, for example, they want a better flow. 


Right fit clients.  


But they don't want a ton. They want enough clients so that they're doing what they love, but at the same time, as you said, they can come home and take their kids to the pool in the afternoon. I think there's more I could say about it, probably more you could say, too. 


Yeah. Um, I, I think what I'm most aware of at the moment is that it feels like there's a big gap in our culture.  


Nicole Jones

I think so. And I, I do think there's the, the hustle and the, - more masculine sort of marketing out there in the world where it's like-  


it's, and we're not as, especially, you know, at the beginning of my, yeah, I could definitely say a lot about this. 


At the beginning of, you know, when we're, we are mothers and we are raising our kids, it's, that's the most, to me, the most important job in the world. But our culture has made money the most important job in the world.  


Judy Murdoch

Right  


Nicole Jones: And, you know, we now require this, most households, especially, you know, here in Colorado, like- 


Colorado is expensive to live here. So it's like-  


Judy Murdoch

Very expensive ...  


Nicole Jones

You know, a lot of people need both incomes. But it's kind of like we've, you know, kind of gotten away from what's really important  


Judy Murdoch

Yeah. No, agreed Cool. So there was, is there, are there any other, I guess, you know, we've been talking sort of about symptoms- 


where, it's sort of like it's an outward expression of our inward money issues. Are there any other things that you notice perhaps with your own clients-  


Nicole Jones

Yeah ...  


Judy Murdoch

That we haven't talked about yet?  


Nicole Jones

So I think one of the most interesting and kind of sneaky things is financial hoarding. So you, uh, look like you're really responsible with money, but you're really paralyzed with anxiety. 


Judy Murdoch

Say more about that.  


Nicole Jones

So it's like - you've got a person who knows every every dime that comes in and out. You know, they really pay a lot of attention. They're great savers. They, you know, got a really healthy retirement.  


Judy Murdoch

Mm-hmm.  


Nicole Jones

And they are like, their fridge has got peanut butter and jelly in it and, you know, it's just... 


And they haven't bought a new blouse in, like, 10 years. You know, like not that you need to do that. And but the, there's like they live so frugally-  


Judy Murdoch

Mm-hmm ...  


Nicole Jones

That our culture can like, celebrate that. Like, wow, look at you. Like, you just, you, look at that. You could retire tomorrow.  


Judy Murdoch

Right. Look at that self-discipline that you have.


Nicole Jones 


Yeah. But it's really just coming from this place of intense anxiety because they're afraid. So there's, the overspenders and then there's also the, hyper-frugal, "I'm gonna hold on. I'm gonna hoard. I'm gonna hoard all the cash." We really kinda wanna like, ah, you wanna live your life. 


You wanna be able to breathe 'cause they're still afraid. And they're afraid to, they're afraid to retire. Like, what if I run out? What if I don't have enough? And you're like, "Wow, you've got enough for, like, three lifetimes."  


Judy Murdoch

Yeah. Yeah.  


Nicole Jones

You know? I had a really, I h- one of my first clients in the money world, um, really interesting story. 


She was very much like that and very mistrustful of banks. And she uncovered that one of her parents hid money all over the yard. They- dug holes- and hid money. So when they died, the family had to go find where all the money was.  


Judy Murdoch

That's crazy.  


Nicole Jones

But, you know, it looked, like that sounds, that was a little, but she was like, "Wow, maybe that's why I'm so, tight with it." 


Like, she didn't ever connect this behavior- to her current behavior of, being so afraid to spend and being so afraid to put her money in any sort of... 'Cause that's what they all, people like that will also do, is, they're afraid to, invest. They won't talk to a financial advisor or financial planner. 


They won't do these things, but they've got, tons of money , stuck maybe just in their local credit union or bank where they can go get it out if they want to.  


Judy Murdoch

Mm-hmm.  


Nicole Jones

So I always, I think that's a really interesting thing-. that most people don't realize can be a maladaptive behavior  


Judy Murdoch

I'm guessing there are people who are like, "I wish I had that problem." 


Nicole Jones

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, like I wish I could, I wish I could just save and hold onto it a little bit. But the idea, like money is meant to, it's an energy. It can like, it likes to flow, ? But it doesn't wanna, , it, you don't wanna like flow it all out. But yeah, definitely people are like, "Oh, I wish I could have that problem," versus, all my credit card debt. 


Judy Murdoch

Is there anything that's really live for you right now that you'd really like to talk about?  


Nicole Jones

I don't know. That's a good question. 


I think just, with all of these behaviors- I, mentioned this at the beginning. 


There are these old strategies for surviving.  


Judy Murdoch

Right.  


Nicole Jones

Yeah. And that's what... So nothing is, bad. You know? If you're, , got a bunch of debt or you avoid your bank account you spend like crazy or, you hoard or whatever, it's just a way that you're learn- you've learned to survive. 


It's how you feel safe. Like, everything that we do-  


is in an attempt to try to feel safety and belonging. We're not gonna be cast off from the group. Because once upon a time, you were cast off from the herd and you could get eaten by an animal, die of starvation,  


Judy Murdoch

A death sentence, for sure. 


Nicole Jones

It was. So we don't wanna- . So I think these behaviors are not to ever feel like, "Oh, this is bad that I do this." "I'm a bad person," or, "I'm bad with money-  


Judy Murdoch

Yeah ...  


Nicole Jones

Because I can't save or because I over-save," or it's just, these are just ways in which you've learned to survive and help your system feel okay. 


But the thing is your system is not, it's still functioning, up here. It's not, really relaxed. You're still like, "Ugh," which is why I do, the deep work that I do, to help your system really relax. So yeah, you do save and you do spend a little, or you spend less and you save some. 


So yeah, just don't like, "Oh my gosh, I'm so bad with money. I do these things." No. This is just how you've learned to survive in the world.  


Judy Murdoch

Yeah. That's why I like the label gremlins, because- I feel like gremlins are, they're kinda mischievous and playful, but they're not, evil. They're not, bad things exactly. 


They're more just little dysfunctional creatures in you.  


Nicole Jones

Yeah, and they're kinda playful and mischievous. Yeah. And they can get you in trouble sometimes.  


Judy Murdoch

I have an observation I wanna share with you. I am so aware of what a consumer-based economy we live in. 


Yeah. And it's been like that for a long time. , For several generations now. And it feels extremely dysfunctional to me And the question that comes up for me is how do we as individuals find balance? Because you were talking, for example, about the person who hoards, and they never buy a new blouse. 


Nicole Jones

Mm-hmm.  


Judy Murdoch

But those people are probably rather rare exceptions in a world where we are constantly being told... I'm just, thinking about how I get all these catalogs, for example.  


Nicole Jones

Mm-hmm.  


Judy Murdoch

And, they've got, like, all these, new season collections, and, I think to myself, at my age, , how many blouses do I really need? 


Nicole Jones

Yeah.  


Judy Murdoch

And I don't know if you have, an answer for this exactly, but I would be interested to hear if you have any observations about how that affects people and how you help people with that because the message is so relentless. It's just always beating at us in every advertisement. 


Everything is all about, purchasing something, and, , the subtext too there is usually if you buy this, you will be happier-  


Nicole Jones

Mm ...  


Judy Murdoch

Better. There's something about you, you're not enough, but once you get this, you'll be complete. So interested in any observations you might have.  


Nicole Jones

Yeah. I, I have a couple things to say, and I, one of the first ones is I remember talking about being a mom and, when my kids were little, I wanted the Patagonia little snow suits for them, right? 


I wanted them to have the little UGG boots. Why? I'm gonna have to work if I want to have this sort of- status, so one thing, yeah, I have several thoughts about this. And then there's a book called, The Millionaire Next Door. 


Have you ever heard of it?  


Judy Murdoch

I have, yeah.  


Nicole Jones

Yeah. So there's The Millionaire Next Door and then The New Millionaire Next Door, which is more recent, but still- somewhat dated now. And in that book they talk about two different kinds of people, the prodigious accumulators of wealth and the under, I think the UA- under accumulators of wealth. 


So the UAWs are the people who aren't worth what they technically should be. Like, they have a way of figuring out, your net worth should be this at this time in your life with making this much money. So what they found with the underachievers of wealth is that those people wanted to look rich. 


Judy Murdoch

Mm-hmm.  


Nicole Jones

They didn't actually care about being wealthy or having a net worth, but it's like, "I need to drive the car. I need to have the house. I need to have the Patagonia snow suit for my kids." I need... Like, it's, it's part of that, like, I wanna feel like I'm belong and I'm safe.  


Judy Murdoch

Mm-hmm.  


Nicole Jones

I don't wanna be cast out. 


Judy Murdoch

Mm-hmm.  


Nicole Jones: The prodigious accumulators of wealth, according to their research, were more frugal. They didn't buy the most expensive car. They didn't buy the most expensive house. They didn't, you know, they were just normal people that you would never assume. I'm also wondering how much of those people were, like, over-the-top money hoarders, but anyway. 


The, gist of it is that people often want to look like they have the wealth-  


Judy Murdoch

Mm-hmm ...  


Nicole Jones

Because they want to feel worthy-  


Judy Murdoch

Mm,  


Nicole Jones

Like they belong- like they're good enough.  


Judy Murdoch

Mm-hmm.  


Nicole Jones: And marketers who are sending- out the catalogs are... they know that psychology. Like, you need to have the newest snowboard, or you have to have the, this is the thing that's happening this, you know, season and blah, blah, blah. 


Whatever. Here's the new color. I was looking at Le Creusets earlier. Here's the new colors, and you're like, "Oh my God, they're so beautiful. Like, it'd be so beautiful in my kitchen." Exactly. But you know, like, they, they know, like, how to hook into that  


Yeah, yeah ... that we feel. Like we're, we need to, have the stuff to be worthy and belong. 


Judy Murdoch

Right. So with the work you do with people, does that make them somewhat, I don't know if immune is quite the right word to use, but does it make them less- vulnerable?  


Nicole Jones

I think I would say it makes them more thoughtful and discerning.  


Judy Murdoch

Okay.  


Nicole Jones

If it's like, "Okay, do I really need to go buy this car? I get a brand new car every year. 


Do I need to do that? Or can I, hang with this one, pay it off?" So I- I think it makes them more discerning because you start to feel more comfortable in who you are. Like I said- Right ... money is just the way in. So then you're like, "Oh, I don't actually need all the stuff." Yeah. "I don't need to look like I've got the most expensive jeans," or buy... 


You know, maybe my nails don't need to be done every week or whatever. Like, um- Yeah ... so I think they start to just feel more discerning around what they wanna spend money on and what, and what feels important to them and just, and more at ease in their own skin.  


Judy Murdoch

Mm-hmm.  


Nicole Jones

Like I am, I'm okay exactly who I am, and I don't need to have the biggest house on the block or send my kids to, you know, the most expensive private schools. 


Judy Murdoch

Right.  


Nicole Jones

Right. You know? I don't have to do that to be okay.  


Judy Murdoch

Yeah. One more question for you, and this is for someone who is listening and, they're nodding their head and saying, "Yes, I see these behaviors in myself, I see these attitudes in myself," what are, like, a few, what I would say gentle steps- 


that they could take to just begin to move, , in a direction of a more, ... like, a, a more co-supportive, relationship with money. Yeah.  


Nicole Jones

I mean, if you have, if they're listening and they never have sat down and just thought about what it feels like to think about money-  


Judy Murdoch

Uh-huh 


Nicole Jones

To start there. Like, very simple. Starting, 'cause o- one of the things that, you know, my work is to bring the unconscious into consciousness.  


Judy Murdoch

Mm-hmm.  


Nicole Jones

And so simply journ- journaling, like, when I think about money, and just, like, brain dump. Yeah. Just download. Like, what... And then I, I, what I also love to have people do is so you're just like, "What do I think about money?" 


and all the things, and then what did my pa- my mom think about money? What did I learn from my dad about money?  


Judy Murdoch

Mm-hmm.  


Nicole Jones

You know, my grandparent. You know, the, the people that were really important to you- Mm ... especially those zero to six ages, like, who are the people I was around a ton who- Mm ... they're, like, I was just, like, a little sponge to all their beliefs, and messages, and all that. 


And just start to, um, start to see where, where that is. And then if you, you know, you're, I think, uh, probably a lot of business owners listening, entrepreneurs, the how, what is showing up, of these thoughts, what are showing up in my business right now? What's impacting my business? Like, I, it's like, it's money's good, money's bad, money's evil. 


Like, I shouldn't have money, but I really wanna have money. It's like, oh, like, just, like, taking a moment to start to just bring those things to the surface. That's how I would start, real gently.  


Judy Murdoch

Yeah, yeah. I love that.  


Nicole Jones

Yeah.  


Judy Murdoch

Well, thank you so much for your time. This has been s- this has been a wonderful conversation. 


Nicole Jones

Thank you so much, Judy. I really loved it.  


Judy Murdoch

Yeah. And there'll be some folks who are listening, and they may wanna get in touch with you. I know you've got a newsletter. So what are some good ways for people to connect with you?  


Nicole Jones

Yeah. I'm, I mean, if people just wanna get to know me a little bit better, they can follow me on Instagram at The Real Nichole Jones, N-I-C-H-O-L-EJones.com, and, or not .com just Jones, and then or awakened-wealth.com. 


And that's where they could sign up for my newsletter too, and they can get my, um, five, five ways to shift your money stress.  


Judy Murdoch

So that sounds like another nice first step they could do if they want  


Nicole Jones

That's a very nice first step. That's, like, it's full of five little fun goodies, things that I do still every day. 


Judy Murdoch

Cool.  


Nicole Jones

Yeah.  


Judy Murdoch

Thanks, Nichole.  


Nicole Jones

Yeah. Thank you.