Using AI to Empower the Common Good - Conversation with Piper Martz

I have an uneasy relationship with AI. On the one hand I’m finding more and more ways to use AI in ways that help my business and the people I serve. On the other hand I still don’t feel entirely comfortable using AI (it’s almost too easy) and there’s the whole “AI will replace all of our jobs” thing.

For this reason, I really enjoyed talking to Piper Martz of Table Stakes Media. Piper is deeply involved in using AI in her digital marketing company AND she cares deeply about how AI technology affects individuals and communities. I love her balanced approach!

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My mission is to change the way small business owners market themselves and it’s very important to me that I reach as many people as possible.

Transcript

Marketing Root Work Podcast - 
Piper Martz

TRANSCRIPT

Judy Murdoch: Hi, I'm Judy Murdoch, and welcome to the Marketing Root Work Podcast. Today my guest is Piper Martz. Piper, I am so excited to have you here as a guest. Would you just like briefly speak a little bit about your company and the work that you do?

Piper Martz: Yeah, Judy, I'm so excited to be here.

So yes, I'm Piper Martz. I am based in New York City, and I got my start in kind of the brand side of working with e-commerce brands and hospitality, restaurants, hotels as a marketer, just learning the art of, hosting a good dinner, treating people well. And over the past few years, I actually transitioned to the tech side, working with, marketing technology companies, and still realizing that at its core, in the day-to-day job, people still crave community, they crave connection, they still crave this very human experience.

And so I feel very blessed that I get to be bringing a human touch to a lot of the marketing work, the education work. And so today, I run an amazing community called Table Stakes Media. We bring more women to the table literally and figuratively to discuss AI marketing and innovation. At our core, we bring folks together around a dinner table, through events, through gatherings, through digital community spaces, really just to get folks educated and sharing resources and support and upskilling.

And even though I work in the tech space, I so firmly believe that we will always have this social connection need to gather, to share resources, to share stories in person, and that's a very big through line for my approach as a marketer in a digital space, in a community space. So I'm really excited to be here.

I'm so happy- that's something that's important to you as well.

Judy Murdoch: Yeah, definitely. I think you can never underestimate people's desire for connection- with other people that feels authentic.

Piper Martz: Yeah, it's interesting. I spent about five and a half years doing, something called lifecycle marketing, and in a very technical, boring way, it's a very wonderfully human type of marketing.

It's all about when a customer or person enters the ecosystem of your work and of your business, of your world, it's like how you nurture them and how you care for them. So yes, it's emails. Yes, it's SMS. Maybe it's a push message. Maybe it's your website experience. But I love doing it because it's just like how do you get to nurture relationships with people so that when they're ready or if they're ever ready to buy or to connect with you or to have some kind of-

formal transaction, they're ready. But also you still have a real relationship beyond that. So I feel very lucky. I'm like, the work, community commitment I have has been, like, a throughline in, all sorts of projects and work I do. But, yeah, it's important. It's very important, the human

Judy Murdoch: connection.

I agree entirely, and I really like this idea of using tech, but using it as a way to nurture relationships.

Piper Martz: Yeah. It's fascinating because, my most recent work was at a company called Amp. It's an agentic AI marketing tool. And the whole idea is trying to personalize, emails, SMS, push, any kind of text, digital text to somebody.

Judy Murdoch: Mm-hmm

Piper Martz: but one-to-one. So truly trying to use AI technology to, make that message as relevant and supportive and, as possible for a person.

Judy Murdoch: Okay.

Piper Martz: And it's a very hard task to do. And in the past maybe decade, maybe 20 years, and I'm sure you know this too, Judy, is we've started to find automations, even the ability to, write a newsletter and, send it to- 1,000 people-. to all get the same message is still a wonderfully human touch. And then, we're slowly finding ways of, segmenting and, even including dynamic, text, like the first, "Dear first name," you know? "I'm writing you this letter." "I saw you purchase this item, and I wanna message you about that."

But slowly, I find that, the way technology's progressing is just trying to find ways of, making messages feel more human. Now, of course, it could be used really just to make money. But I also think it can be used for something really beautiful, of trying to learn about someone and create connection.

And there's community builders like yourself that are trying to, more share and educate and learn, and I'm seeing that. I'm totally seeing that. But it's, an important part of marketing. It's something I'm excited about in this, AI world. But that might- unlock the ability to create a more, I don't know, keep the humanity in the way we message and communicate with folks.

Judy Murdoch: It's not a good thing to ignore. Let me ask you a question about AI, because this is a question- ... that comes up all the time when people talk about it. I use AI in doing mostly analysis work. It's really great- for poring through huge amounts of data and helping me draw conclusions that would've taken me a really long time had I not. I know we have a, I don't know how to say it, like an uncomfortable relationship, I think, with AI because it feels really human in the way it interacts with us.

It's designed to be that way. But AI is not human. It is not a human being. It's more a representation, right? Really of like a lot of human, you know, kind of like human output. And I have such an uncomfortable relationship with AI for that reason.

Do you have any thoughts about that?

Piper Martz: I have so many thoughts. My family is completely divided. So like I, I don't want your listeners to think that I am like a blinded evangelist by any means. Actually, I think nothing in this world is black and white. I think AI has so much nuance. I actually really enjoy speaking with people who have trust concerns or issues about-

like a dystopian future. And I'm like, "Well, we all gotta come to the table." We all need to, we all need to share some of the nuances or the fears. It's interesting, 'cause functionally, how, large language models work, like ChatGPT or Claude, is it is a homogenization of all these thoughts and ideas.

And folks who are in- the arts or in creative spaces may be really underwhelmed by what it produces for them. That's totally fair. . And literally, as you ask a question or as you prompt it, it is taking the statistically most likely letters- words, concepts, phrases, and giving that to you.

And as it interacts with you, it's learning. And so it's interesting, because you can always prompt it to give you better answers to feel more in line with your values or your interests, but-

Judy Murdoch: Mm-hmm ...

Piper Martz: I also think there's this trap of treating it like a person to, to-

Judy Murdoch: I agree.

Piper Martz: There, there are people who are using AI tools as companions, which is very unsafe.

I really don't recommend that. There's a lot of issues of psychosis. The challenge that's so different from a real human and an AI tool, like ChatGPT or Claude, is that like real humans, like we are prickly and multifaceted, and we have- different opinions and maybe- .. you argue or you come at different places.

And the chatbots, these AI tools, are designed to always kind of affirm your assumptions- exactly ... or affirm your behavior. And because if you feel- good using them, then- Yeah ... it like kind of gives you a little war- it makes you feel warm and fuzzy, and you're like, "Oh- Right ... that is a great idea.

Oh, thank you." Like-

Judy Murdoch: Right.

Piper Martz: Yeah ... let's keep chatting. And that's where there's like a risk for serious things, like maybe like a medical issue or psychological issue. You have to be cautious. There are cases of psychosis, of people going down very dark paths. So I really discourage people from using it as like a therapist.

Now, there are AI tools- that are like- mental health tools that are a support, but there's a lot of guardrails. A, dear friend of mine from college is actually a clinical psychologist. She just finished her PhD. She works at BetterHelp in supporting- ethical, thoughtful AI development- for like a chat tool, and what it should be and what it should not be. And that's ... I love talking to her about it. But as you noted- There are some things that AI does that's so helpful.

I think everyone listening may already, whether you use AI or you don't use AI, or you like it or you don't like it, I think there are points of friction in all of our lives of, things we don't like doing.

I hate my taxes. I hate doing taxes. I hate accounting. I will happily pay someone to help me, and, like, that's a task I could get support from. And if you're running- a small business and, you wanna do the fun parts of your business, but there are- administrative, tedious aspects, that natural- friction you go through may be a really great place for you to think about, "Is there a way AI could support me in this process?" But, the stuff you love, if you love writing your Substack and your newsletter, you love making music, you can say, "Oh, I'm not gonna use it for this, 'cause I enjoy the process."

I speak with writers- I speak with artists like that who are like, "I love parts of this, but I hate parts of it, so I'm not gonna use AI for this." And, we all get to set our own rules, and I think that's, I don't know, it gives us a little bit of agency. But it is a dangerous space to fall into, but I also think there's people doing such fun, creative projects on the internet that are whimsical- and delightful, and they're not about productivity, and they're like. And it's such a fun way of learning and stimulating, engaging your brain around AI. I just spoke to a woman who built, a Lisa Frank-inspired dashboard, so it's like- Okay.

Judy Murdoch: Oh my goodness ...

Piper Martz: totally, like, rainbow- Yeah ... and colorful and dolphins, and it, like-

She built herself an anti-feed. And it's, again, this is, not to make money. This is just, for her delight. Oh, that's fun. And it's a feed of all her favorite news sources and articles and blogs, and it like- every day updates her only on the topics that she likes.

Judy Murdoch: I love that. I love that idea.

Oh, man, you got me thinking about, the Lisa Frank art and how much fun it can be, right?

Piper Martz: It's just unnecessarily delightful, and I wish people... Like, yes, AI can be very serious, and it can be for productivity and helping your business, but I, I actually think a very healthy way of building the muscles and the skills and figuring out-

yeah ... the boundaries of how you wanna interact with AI is to like- Yeah ... do fun, whimsical projects. Yeah. Like, do something that, the stakes are low, and it just, teaches you, what you like about it or you don't like. Like, build a website, build an app. Build a little AI agent.

Judy Murdoch: Absolutely.

Somebody actually created an agent for me that spoke as Dumbledore And it was really fun. And Dumbledore was like my marketing coach. And so Dumbledore would ask me questions in a very Dumbledore style of I would write like, "Well, I'm afraid nobody's reading my writing," or, "Nobody will pay for my marketing."

And Dumbledore would, like in the Dumbledore way, "Well, you did say this, however, you also said that. And, you know, like, there's a bit of a conflict here. Like, what do you think is true? Or do you need to work to find the truth?" And I thought like, "Oh, this is cool. I like hanging out with Dumbledore."

Piper Martz: It's that's such a good example. Like whim- there's a big movement in social media to, whimsify your life and whimsify yourse- like summer, you know, summer of whimsy. And I think like-

Judy Murdoch: I love that ...

Piper Martz: make, use AI tools, don't take yourself so seriously. You could have an accountant who's Dumbledore or a career coach who's Dumbledore.

That'd be cool. Or - make it fun and personal to you, and I think that's a good way of building comfort and dexterity, and also to, not take it so seriously. Um, but it is very profound. And I will say, I'm trying to get everyone in my life to build AI agents because they're, there's so many different ways of building them, but they're kind of fun.

It's kind of fun to, you're intentionally humanizing and creating a persona and a character that's really good at one particular thing to, like- . give you advice and be like a soundboard, and you can use them in a very human way.

Judy Murdoch: Right.

Piper Martz: I have built multiple, but I have built one that's, like, my travel agent.

And, like- she knows a lot of my preferences of, food and restaurants and how I like to have lazy mornings and find coffee shops, and I just, bounce ideas off her, and that's so fun. And then that was a great exercise just to learn to build boundaries of what I want her to do or not want her to do.

And, I actually built, a fake background. I have, all my agents have a resume. And I heard this from a really great AI educator named Alicia Little She's absolutely phenomenal. She does amazing, very hands-on AI skill building workshops and lectures and podcast interviews for small businesses of landscaping or artists or school teachers.

I mean, she- really covers the whole gamut. I really recommend her as a resource, for your audience listening. But she- recommended that she builds, a team. She works with business owners and says, "Who's the first hire that you would make? Like, what is the biggest challenge in your life?"

Sometimes I say this to my friends. I'm like, "What's plaguing you right now?" And one of my friends said, like- "I need a money coach." One of my friends was like, "I need a social media support." You know, if you could hire anyone.

And from there, you can then converse with Claude or Gemini or ChatGPT, any tool that you feel a natural yearning for.

They all will do this. And you start to talk back and forth about, if you hired a person, what would they do for you? What kind of tasks would they do? What would their expertise build? And you can describe that they have experience in your niche or your business or your background or-

they work with women like you who were born in California and love cats and also do exercise. I mean, you can make it, like, so weirdly specific. Who love Dumbledore, love Harry Potter. Like, add detail- ... that maybe you think context is irrelevant, but it just helps frame how they work with you.

And I even asked, as I'm building this- ... I asked Claude, I love Claude. I'm like, "Claude, make a resume- Yeah, interesting ... for this person. What kind of jobs have they had in the past? Maybe they had experience in another industry that... I love hiring and working with people who've worked in hospitality because you just have this- extra attention to detail for the, the customer or the person's experience. Like, whatever the industry is, I love hospitality people. So I always am like, all my agents need to have, worked in hospitality . And I also am like, "Generate some testimonials." And of course, Claude will be like, "I can't make a fictitious person, like, this isn't..."

And I'm like, "Yeah, it's, it is fictional. Like, I'm not, we're not doing fraud. We're not gonna post this on LinkedIn. Like, make some fake testimonials from fake clients of people who don't exist, but I wanna get a sense of, like-

Judy Murdoch: Hmm ...

Piper Martz: this is a real person." And you build, like, a little army of AI agents that can support you with different projects.

They can have names. . I have one agent named Scout. I met a woman who named her agent, Echo. And, you can just have these fun, whimsical names- ... and they can interact with each other and support you on life projects, but also inevitably you went, "Oh, this might be really good for my business.

This might be really good- ... for my event planning or my dinner planning." . Or, you know, there's ways of pulling in their knowledge and wisdom to support you on a task that you do love. - Right I think that's a really good entryway to, kind of dabble. And once you are prompting Claude or Gemini, at the end of the conversation, you then need to ask it to say, "Put this, all the information you have about this character, about this agent- and put it into a file. Put it into a markdown file." This is an MD file. . This is what gets uploaded. It's a very easy file for AI tools to read. . It's like a Google Doc. ... Put it into a markdown file and save it to your memory. You can literally say, "Save it to your memory. This is important."

. "Save this person to your memory." . And then in the future, as you're prompting or asking a question, you can say- "Hey, I want Scout, my, travel planner. Is Scout there? Can I talk to Scout right now?" And the memory, it'll say, "Fetching memory," and then you'll, suddenly you're talking to this agent.

Interesting. Okay, question for you. Very easy way to start. Yes.

Judy Murdoch: Question for you. One of the things that, as a small business owner, I'm sure you know this too, is we can't do it all ourselves. We just can't. And so what, as you're speaking, what is popping up in my mind is this question about AI can't replace an employee.

Not really. Would AI, could that help you come up with maybe a profile to help you find that person? Because I think the only thing more challenging than running a business by yourself, I think, is finding talent, if you will.

Piper Martz: Mm. I mean, you could totally have, like, a talent scout or, like, a hiring... I mean- Yeah

like, I think-

Judy Murdoch: That's a, that's a, that's a good idea, because I, I think-

Piper Martz: You wanna keep the process human, is what I'm hear- Like, you wanna use AI, but also still, I know that's a big value of yours, is, keeping this human touch. And I think as a business owner and leader- there are ways for you to, set the boundaries to say- "i wanna use these tools, but I also wanna keep a human touch and still"- "employ people and still support people who can use these tools, but not replace." I don't... A- I mean, that's, like, also- Right. Y- I think that's a great- ... I think that's a great way to contextually tell your hiring scout to find someone.

Judy Murdoch: That would be a very interesting project.

Piper Martz: It'd be a great project. It actually... Something else, another fun little AI project for you, Judy, or you, and you've maybe have already done this, but I, recommend this for everyone, even non-business owners. Um, and this is from, again, I gotta give credit where credit is due, 'cause there's so many smart, intelligent women in the space that are, like, giving tactile projects to, learn how to use these tools.

And Allie K. Miller is a, one of the biggest names on LinkedIn in AI education. She's been in AI for over 25 years. She has the most followers on LinkedIn for AI, information and education, and what she recommends is creating, a personal constitution. And you essentially- Whoa. I like that

tell your AI tool that you- That's cool ... wanna develop a document that's like your manifesto of your values- Oh, cool ... what you care about, like your mission. I love it. And it's not like, "Oh, I'm going on a vacation next week," or, "I have a meeting." It's more about, like, who you are as a person, like what you value- Get it

in relationships and friendships. And you tell it you wanna build this document, and then you can say, "I wanna turn on the speaking mode where I can talk to you, and I want you to interview me for, an hour, for 30 minutes."

Judy Murdoch: Oh, cool. I love it.

Piper Martz: And so you can, talk to it, and it'll be like, "Oh," "Tell me about your family.

What was your childhood like? And what did you really enjoy- about your childhood, and what was not so great?" And it feels like a therapeutic process, but- at the end, it summarizes observations about you, about what you value- in relationships, what's important to you, what's not important to you.

Oh, I kinda love that. I learned about myself in this, and I've actually have this file. I ask it to save it as a markdown file, this m, .md, just like a Google, like a Doc. And I upload it to every project I ever work on. Because no matter what, even if I'm asking questions to an AI tool about, product purchasing or, accounting, I want it to know my core values as a person so that-

it can cater its response to things that are important to me. And, like, Judy, just like you, I highly value relationships, I value loyalty, I value, really making people feel like they belong at a table, in a conversation, in a gathering. That's very important how I operate as a business owner-

as an employee, as a friend, as a child, as a parent, partner- Yeah ... like, everything.

Judy Murdoch: Mm-hmm.

Piper Martz: It's a fun process. I really recommend it. You can also do this about your business, like what business you run, what parts you like, what parts you don't like. And be honest. .

Give it, give it the context about things that cause you friction. My little personal constitution knows that I really hate accounting.

Judy Murdoch: Yeah, .

Piper Martz: Yeah. And I, that taxes give me overwhelm, and these are steps and things that I just, will always accept support and help from. But it also knows that I love writing, and I'm really creative.

, That's a part of the process I like. And so as I interact with it, it, will say, "Hey, I know you're gonna enjoy writing this email. Tell me the ideas you want. I'll be a sounding board." But it'll be like, "Piper," , "you write it." It passes off the baton. So I don't know, Judy.

Yeah. I think you'd love that. I think a lot of your listeners should give that a shot.

Judy Murdoch: It sounds like we should probably do a mini workshop and lead people- We could ... through it. I would really like to do that actually, because I think there is nothing like actually, like, getting caught up-

Piper Martz: Mm ...

Judy Murdoch: and interacting with it, and just doing it.

Piper Martz: It's like podcasts always feel like, when I'm listening to a podcast, I feel like I'm, like, at the table next to someone- like overhearing their great conversation. And you're right, it's like a, there's like a human element of getting to, do this together. And I, I'm fortunate to live in New York City.

I go to a lot of AI events of, every way, shape, and form. Some are technical, some are non-technical. But I love this idea that, in community, in person, in gathering is, like, where people share a lot more context and detail. You don't just hear the final product. You hear the iterations and the attempts, the things that didn't work, the things that were frustrating.

And you hear maybe sometimes the glossy stuff. But-

Judy Murdoch: Mm-hmm ...

Piper Martz: yeah, that's like a very big reason why even working in technology, I, I just feel it's so important to lead with this in-person interaction. I even like digital. A video chat is also wonderful if you can't get together.

But- there's something magical about, sharing a coffee or breaking bread or, family style- meal. There's just something different about it. And I have yet- to find a tech founder or business leader that disagrees with that. I think there's actually a very big alignment that's important right now.

Judy Murdoch: One of the things that I heard you talk about is women in AI. And I want to learn a little bit more about your involvement in this and what it looks like.

Piper Martz: Yeah. There, there's been a couple different studies that have come out. Sharon Salzberg has an organization that is...

And she wrote a book called Lean In that was- incredibly controversial in, in all the good ways to start discourse about women's participation in the workforce in the- 2000s. And her organization recently did a study on just, adoption of AI- and gender disparities.

And there's actually a lot of budding research across universities, across tons of different organizations, to look at- how different types of people from different socioeconomic backgrounds, from different professions, from and genders- how they adopt AI. And it was a jaw-dropping study that a very large percentage of working professional women do not wanna use AI.

They're very fearful of AI, they're very concerned about AI, and they're not using it. And the percentages, like I, I wish I recalled this exactly off the top of my head. I believe it's over 50%, but I also know there's been a couple follow-up studies and those numbers are changing. But the main takeaway from some of this research that's now sparked a ton of other surveys-

is that there is a gender disconnect in the experience with AI. And I think it's very valid to recognize that different communities and different identities will have a different type of relationship-

Judy Murdoch: Mm-hmm ...

Piper Martz: with using these tools, with how- those tools and those companies that have those tools reach the communities.

And- I have, in my own anecdotal experience, I have been doing hundreds of informational interviews with women in the community space, in the- partnership space, in the tech side, in the event marketing and field marketing, people who really value physical connection and community. And I've been asking them, "How do you use AI, and what are you doing?"

And there are a lot more people than I expected who don't know how to use AI. They know they should. They feel a disconnect.

Judy Murdoch: Right.

Piper Martz: And they're exhausted. They're underappreciated. The, impact of their work on revenue or sales or business or education or community work is not valued in the same way.

There's no quantitative- metric coming out. . And it, plagues me because I'm like- Yeah ... the parts of this job that you don't enjoy, an AI tool could help you with that. The parts you do enjoy- .. You get to do. . And so yeah, as I've been communicating, especially to senior women, in tech organizations and e-commerce organizations and retail-

Judy Murdoch: Mm-hmm

Piper Martz: especially women around, a VP level or, a senior director level where they're running departments or running teams-

Judy Murdoch: Mm-hmm ...

Piper Martz: these are women who experience this, sandwich pressure, and this is the area of the focus that I work on right now and I'm just, really- Interesting ... fascinated with.

Okay. And these are women where their senior leaders at their companies are saying, "Implement AI, implement AI." . "Where is AI?" Yeah. "Use the tool." Yeah. "Get tools. Let's go." "Chop, chop." . , The board members want this. There's this pressure. And then their- ... junior team- ... the folks below them, their department, their teams, they're afraid of layoffs.

They're not being given the resources to up-skill- ... and learn. There's distrust about the quality, about the output. I mean- some of these people have built their whole career in learning tactically how to be great at writing or creating art or- building certain- technical things or analysis.

I mean, that's their whole careers.

Judy Murdoch: Yeah.

Piper Martz: Yeah. And they're a f- very reasonable fear, very reasonable fear.

So I started in my actual, my previous job where I was doing community and ecosystem work at a tech startup- A lot of these women were like, "Piper, I'm so happy. At this dinner table, I sat next to so-and-so from this big company.

She- ... also has this pressure that I'm going through, and I just feel so alone right now. And like- . we're all struggling and it was so nice to talk to somebody about that." And I'm, it's not me. Like, I'm not... You know, these women were like, "It's not just a me problem." I'm like, no, this is a very technical term called, like, change management, about creating a culture of psychological safety for your team, of-

Judy Murdoch: Yes

Piper Martz: Helping your team members recognize the value, to protect them from layoffs, to give them the resources and support to skill build and learn. And so my, the way I feel drawn to support this greater disparity of women's adoption of AI is like- can we inspire more female leaders, women who have the opportunity to mentor, to influence- to lead upskilling programs, to help educate them on leadership guidance, on, on even, the research around AI change management, of, building-

structures or certification programs, or even cultures where these people can learn, they can make mistakes without fearing for their jobs, and they can be confident that if they learn those tools-

if they find the right rhythm, that it's gonna help their career and protect their job, and maybe push off some of the stuff they used to do that was important to them, but maybe make space for something new, something meaningful.

Judy Murdoch: Thank you. That is such a positive- way to look at it.

It's really like any technical revolution, if you will. I mean, this has been happening forever. , We could- go back to the railroads. We could go back to steam engines, you know, industrialization. But there's always anxiety when a new technology comes out, and the new technology is inevitably, it's male leaders.

It's capitalist. It's kind of like, we've got this cool technology. We're gonna make a shit ton of money. And whatever happens, happens, man, but, like, we're gonna make a shit ton of money. I don't wanna say, the male voice, that particular perspective is invalid, because it's not.

It's human. It's part of- human experience. It is not, however, buffered by the other side, which is how tech- technical change creates enormous anxiety in human beings. , And I like that, the way you frame it as we need to address that. That needs to be addressed.

Piper Martz: It's not the tool, like, there are so many tools out there using AI.

Like, some are good, some are bad. But also, , you could have the best tool in the world, and if a team is not equipped or taught or encouraged or supported in learning that tool, it won't succeed. And so I'm very excited about this change management and this sort of leadership training that we're, I'm doing over dinner tables.

We are doing this in, like, a very, I wanna say informal capacity, but it's a very safe space of, like- other female leaders, different industries, to be vulnerable, to be like, "I tried this. It didn't work. I tried this. It didn't work. I tried this and it kinda worked." Because there's a vulnerability to say, , "I can't get my team to adopt this."

And you don't wanna have to force people who have this very natural, healthy distrust. , I wanna validate that , the fears of AI, the distrust, the concerns about output, the concerns about who's making money, those are very, very valid. And I think we have to think as leaders, as community members, of what can we do, what part can we play- in not trying to force people down the path of, use it or lose it, there's, I hear a lot of this rhetoric of, you're gonna get left behind.

Judy Murdoch: Right.

Piper Martz: Yeah. It is so bizarre to me- Exactly ... because I-

Judy Murdoch: I hear

Piper Martz: you. I know ... I do think personally, ethically, people should be able to opt out if they want to.

Could that impact employment? Of course it can. If you don't wanna use the internet and it's part of your job, then maybe you gotta find another path that aligns with your values, and that's okay. That's hard, but that's okay. If your company says, "We can't work with you anymore," it's all right.

I think we bring in these tools, and it's like a big Trojan horse of just, make money, use this tool. It's gonna make your life better. We're gonna get rid of people. It's gonna save us money. And we're missing this, human culture element of-

Judy Murdoch: Exactly ...

Piper Martz: education. And, psychological safety, I cannot emphasize that enough, is so important for-

leaders and business owners- ... to create as you're implementing a tool, knowing people will have different learning curves, will be at all different abilities. And your goal as a leader is to clear the path so that they can walk behind you confidently. It's to- try to get rid of as much friction, try to create the safe path, the environment, and all the circumstances that people will thrive.

And it may be bumpy, and people are at different levels, and part of that, that is, formalized certifications or education programs, but part of it is culture. It's like- that unspoken thing that some organizations realize takes effort and facilitation. And I don't think a lot of senior leaders are getting that training, and these are senior leaders

again, directors, VPs, even senior managers who run a team. No one is giving them resources to say "Hey, here's how you can support your team and help them up-skill and to survive." And now layoffs will happen. Like, they're, they're happening everywhere. They are, it's true. It's very unfortunate.

But there are organizations, I always use IKEA as a great example. IKEA had tens of thousands of customer service, support agents who were answering calls and emails for folks struggling with furniture assembly.

Judy Murdoch: How to put the couch together.

Piper Martz: Yeah. I mean, I-

Judy Murdoch: Yeah ...

Piper Martz: we have all struggled. Universal experience is-

for sure ... the stress of putting together IKEA furniture. And the company ultimately changed technologies and no longer needed real... that same number of real people- to answer these calls and these emails. And instead of laying them off- There, the IKEA leadership team thought, "What if we actually retrain all these people who know the product line, they know our ecosystem, they know our business inside and out?"

Judy Murdoch: Mm-hmm,

Piper Martz: Which any customer service person listening, like, truly they are, they are the blood and the backbone- ... of any business, dealing with challenging customers. They know the good, the bad, the ugly. Yeah. What if we retrain those people to actually offer interior design services and support?

And they- . built an entirely new branch of their business- . for interior design services, a virtual digital interior design work. They had a tool- ... and technology that could take- images of people's homes, and then drop in IKEA furniture. And so suddenly they had a whole- new revenue arm of the business.

All these people got to keep their jobs, if they wanted them. If they didn't wanna do that, they could leave. That's okay, too.

How do we model that? I'm like how can we model that- Right ... so, like- Yeah ... AI maybe does part of your job, and it opens up bandwidth for you to create more value for your company, or explore-

projects you didn't have time for. So, I'm trying to- keep the humanity in all of this. Yeah. I'm really hopeful, Judy.

Judy Murdoch: Well, you know what I'm hearing, too, from you, Piper? I hear a lot of creativity, - I mean, in my opinion, what IKEA did was they found a creative option that, you know, like, there are companies that probably would not have even asked the question to begin with.

But I'm a big enthusiast when it comes to there are always creative options.

Piper Martz: Mm.

Judy Murdoch: And AI can probably help us with that, too.

Piper Martz: Right? . If you were running a team or a company and, let's say you're bringing on a tool or technology that only needs maybe one person to run it instead of the five that you'd previously hired, so you would maybe-

lose four employees. Yeah. You could go to Claude or ChatGPT or Gemini or Perplexity and say, "Hey- I really like these people. They have been so loyal. They've helped me generate money, but their jobs are about to change radically. Here are their resumes, here's their background-

here's what I know about them, here's what they do day to day. What could I help them transfer or retrain- or shift gears to- that will provide more value to my business, but help keep them employed?"

Judy Murdoch: Well, be divergent, right? Yeah. Be

Piper Martz: divergent. Absolutely.

Judy Murdoch: You know, use humor. Be divergent. You know, be silly.

But, again, creativity is one of those things that I think is underused in general.

Piper Martz: Absolutely. I think IKEA's solution is a very creative solution. It's a very fun solution, and I bet you most consulting firms IKEA consulted said, "Just lay them all off. Save the money." Yeah. And again, they had to invest-

a lot of money, hundreds of thousands of dollars, into reskilling and retraining people. But again, that's something an AI tool could help you model out. What would be the investment of retraining this person, and after a year of working at the company or after they accomplish this project or this new initiative that they're building, like,

how could that balance out?

Judy Murdoch: Well, I appreciate their culture. I mean, it's a value in their culture, and-

Piper Martz: Yeah ...

Judy Murdoch: yes, thank you. I really like that. Okay, I'm gonna ask you about the paper hearts, because I love that story. So would you share with people the paper heart story?

Piper Martz: Yeah,

Judy Murdoch: I- It, I know we're taking off on a tangent, but it's such a great story

Piper Martz: it's wonderful, and I hope it inspires someone. And it, I haven't thought about this in a really long time, and I'm really touched that you found it, Judy. I, as a teenager, I loved movies like Amélie. I loved this idea of doing these secret small acts of good that made someone's life- Yes ... made someone smile or made their life better, but like-

they didn't know who did it or what did it, and I thought that was so- ... delightful. Like, that's a way of- adding more joy into this world. You don't even have to see who experiences the joy. It's like small acts- Yeah ... of kindness. And I had found a project, I probably found it through just somewhere on the internet.

I wish I could remember the original creator of this, but it was called the Paper Hearts Project. And a woman cut out hearts of cardboard and painted them all red, and on one side she wrote quotes, and on the other side she wrote the website to the project. And I was so inspired by this. . I was like, "I can do that."

And so sure enough, I, newspapered my dining table, cut out- ... very misshapen red hearts. I painted them red, you know, and-

Judy Murdoch: Uh-huh ...

Piper Martz: wrote little sweet quotes on them, and I just kept them in- Yeah ... my purse or in my handbag or my backpack at school. I'd leave them in books. I left them in a pair of jeans that are Forever 21, when that still existed.

And it was, like, really fun. Yeah. It was like this sec- I felt like a secret agent. Like, it was like I was slipping it in. And if someone saw me, I was like, "Good," like, "I hope they come and find this." That's great. So I'd leave these everywhere, and the idea was, like, it just brought something sweet and meaningful, like a delightful surprise.

And so sure enough, I wrote my college essay about this as I was applying for colleges- because in this very academic, strenuous, achievement-oriented society, I was a high-achieving student, but I wanted to go somewhere, to a university, to a community that valued this level of thoughtfulness, this idea of-

communal good, and, like- leaving an imprint on a community or a space that, was so positive and whimsical and wonderful- even if it didn't directly benefit me, although it did. It made me feel so wonderful to leave these around. Um, and so yeah, it's such a delightful project. I really wish I, I need to look up the name.

I don't know if that website originally exists, but there's so many ways that someone could recreate this, that I've thought about since. Yeah. I also randomly collect fortune cookie fortunes. I probably have about 15 years of fortune cookie fortunes. Oh my goodness. I think they're so funny.

Judy Murdoch: Yeah.

Piper Martz: Um, and I'm like, "Maybe I just tape these to a pap- a, you know, a cardboard heart and start dropping them around." But, um, yeah.

Judy Murdoch: I just, I love

Piper Martz: the,

Judy Murdoch: the whimsy of it, and I love the unexpected nature of it, and I think that's, I, I think things like that make humans happy. They just make people happy.

Piper Martz: Ah, it does.

They're delightful. That's like-

Judy Murdoch: Right? ...

Piper Martz: in my work and my personal life, it's, so much of this is, making someone smile and making them feel belong, or to feel chosen- Yeah ... or to feel special. And, um-

Judy Murdoch: Yeah, just to make their heart do a little happy dance, you know?

Piper Martz: Yeah. I've thought about- Yeah

variations of this project. And Judy, before you started recruiting, like I know- that this too, is that I come from a family of collectors. We all just, collect random things, and I used to collect- yard gnomes. And, my sisters hate them. They think they're very demonic and gremlin-like.

They're very scary all piled up on a shelf staring at you in my bedroom. It's so funny, but I love them. I find them really funny and good bad. Good fun, yeah. And I thought, "Oh, it'd be so fun to leave yard gnomes, around my community- or around my neighborhood in New York City," and, like-

Judy Murdoch: Yeah

Piper Martz: what if I leave a yard gnome? But I don't want someone to just find it and keep it. And again, maybe I vibe code a website for this, but I'm like, I want someone to like- look at it, scan a QR code, log where they found it- . and then go hide it again for somebody else to find.

Right. I know.

Judy Murdoch: I think there's like- Yeah ...

Piper Martz: it's like you're stumbling upon something, and you don't realize it, but you just joined a secret club, and you now- . have to go hide a little yard gnome somewhere to bring delight, to the community. People might hate them. People might keep them or steal them, but that's I don't know, that's part of the project.

Um-

Judy Murdoch: Yeah, it's just a fun thing to do. What were those things where, you would, hide something and then people would have to find it based on, the navigation code or something? Geocaching. Geocaching. It's got that vibe to it for me,

i, I think we live in a time where, we need, infinite whimsy and fun and love and cool stuff going on, 'cause I just think, we just need to put that vibe back into the world, you know? It's good for people.

Piper Martz: It is good for people, and this is, it's the summer. The sun is out. Like, kids are out of school.

I think there's- Great project for kids ... to me, summer is always an opportunity for, for just, a fun creative project. Like, you need a side quest this summer. Like, maybe- I think that's a great idea ... let's make something. And I would- What a

Judy Murdoch: fun thing to do with your kiddos, huh?

Piper Martz: I would totally do it with kids, do it with friends.

I also think if you wanna, bring a fun skill-building side to it, I'm like, why don't you vibe code a website? Which vibe coding is just using an AI LLM to, like, help you build a website without knowing how to code. It builds it for you- ... and you just prompt it. You could totally vibe code a website and add a QR code to the back of whatever item you decide to share on your community.

I just love the idea of logging where it was found, like some way- an input that, you go to a website- and you're like, "Here's where I found it," and, like- Yeah ... "Yes, I'm gonna go hide it somewhere new." Like, I think

Judy Murdoch: that's really fun. Yeah, I love that idea. I think it's really fun too. This has been so, so delightful.

Is there anything that you and I have not yet talked about that you would really, really like to talk about?

Piper Martz: You know, I think the one last thing I would share with people is that it's okay to have fear and concerns about AI in your business, in your creative process, in your life, in your personal admin.

Some people may be a fish to water and just be totally fine using- ... these tools with abandon.

Judy Murdoch: Mm-hmm.

Piper Martz: But I also wanna invite people who have that fear or concerns or to come to the table. Find local community events in your city, in your neighborhood. Maybe even organize them on a event gathering app like Luma or Partiful.

But I think engaging in discourse with people is how those concerns and those insights and ideas actually could help make change.

Judy Murdoch: Yeah.

Piper Martz: Yeah ... I wanna shout out, there's a couple great communities in New York City, if any of your listeners are there. Columbia University has a project called the Citizen AI Project.

They bring- together a group of p- I'm a member. They bring together a group of people of very different backgrounds, careers. We had elementary school teachers, we had natural healers, we had a banker. I was one of the few people in tech. We had artists, we had curators, and everyone came together to talk about, what would democratizing AI look like, around like how do people give input to how this product is built and how it is- implemented. Yeah. What would that look like in a dream world? And so- again, there's a- another great community, social entrepreneurship space in New York City in, in Greenwich Village called Anew. They're a cafe by day and also a salon by night.

They have workshops and gatherings for mission-driven founders and creatives. And they- Cool ... monthly host an AI salon which brings in philosophers. And last night I went, I sat next to a dentist and- ... who's really passionate about kid- kids going to college without debt. I mean, it just brings a whole s- group of people together.

Judy Murdoch: Nice. Cool.

Piper Martz: And not everyone supports AI, and that's good. It's good to share those opinions. It's good to talk to people who disagree with you or agree with you, and the goal is not to change people's minds. The goal is to gather in community, it's to open your mind, it's to have- new ideas and to think, but also, like sharing your concerns and feedback.

Using a tool and then saying, "Ooh, this doesn't feel right," send an email. Email the company and say, "What are you gonna do about my data privacy? What are you gonna ... How are you thinking about data centers or environmental impact?" Get involved. Your, your thoughts and feelings are valid and, please share them.

I also think you should use the tool, and that may help you get a more confidence or peace of mind with some aspects and maybe not others. I agree. But that's my one final mission. It's totally fine to wanna opt out, but I really want the voices of concern to be engaged. I wanna make space for them.

I want those people to help influence and shape a better tool, a better tomorrow, a better world of AI. So that's, that's my- my final note.

Judy Murdoch: Yay. Yay. So for, for people who are listening and they think, "Wow, I really like Piper. I wanna get more of her-" Aw. Um, how do people, how do we connect with you?

How do we hang out with you?

Piper Martz: I would say you can learn more about my organization, Table Stakes Media, at tablestakesmedia.com. I did vibe code this website on Lovable very easily, so please.

Judy Murdoch: It's

Piper Martz: so cool. Uh, it's, it's not a perfect website, but again, you just build things quickly and iterate. Um- It's a

Judy Murdoch: human

Piper Martz: website.

Yeah. Please shoot me an email. You can find my email and info there if you wanna get involved or start a program in your city. Um, also connect with me on LinkedIn. Um- Okay ... I'm very active on LinkedIn. I post a lot about community events around the country- Cool ... for AI gatherings, for educational gatherings, especially in AI.

Um, and again, that's just- Cool ... my name is Piper, P-I-P-E-R, Martz, M-A-R-T-Z. Um, so yeah, come connect with me on LinkedIn.

Judy Murdoch: Cool. Thanks, Piper. Thank you so much.

Piper Martz: Judy, thank you. Thanks for bringing this community together and just keeping things a little more human in this AI world.

Judy Murdoch: Thank you so much.