Dopamine Diaries

The Birth of a Mother - With Dr. Nicole Kumi

• Coach Kate • Episode 109

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This episode is the version of motherhood nobody posts about online.

I was 6 weeks postpartum, not okay, and willing to pay anything for someone to help me figure out what the hell was happening to me.

So I brought on Dr. Nicole, the person who saw me in that state and didn’t look away.

We talk about:

  • being deeply in love with your baby… and also feeling like you’re drowning
  • the anxiety that makes everything feel dangerous
  • the depression that shows up way later and makes you question everything
  • the identity loss no one prepares high-achieving women for
  • and how the system checks on your baby… then sends you home like “good luck”

Also:

  • how social media quietly made it worse
  • why you feel crazy but aren’t
  • and what actual support should have looked like the whole time

If you’ve ever thought “I should be happier than this”
or “Why does this feel so much harder than everyone said”,

this episode is yours.

Want support beyond this episode? here’s where to find Nicole + her work:

SPEAKER_00

All right, what's up, you guys? Welcome back to the Dopamine Diaries Podcast. I'm very excited for today. I have with me Dr. Nicole. She is someone that I hired when I was, man, do you even remember how postpartum I was? I wasn't that postpartum. Six weeks. Six weeks. Six weeks postpartum. So I was, I was in it. Um, but I hired her for maternal mental health support. And um when I reached out to her asking her to come on the podcast, I was like, I just need you to come and give my audience more information about what you do, all of your resources, because when I think back to what postpartum was like for me, I've talked about it a lot on my page. I've talked about it a lot on this podcast. It was very, very challenging. And Dr. Nicole was one person that at that time, six weeks, definitely got me through it. So, Dr. Nicole, welcome. Thanks for being here.

SPEAKER_01

Thank you. I'm really excited to be here. And it is interesting. You were six weeks postpartum, and I remember thinking, I don't know about this. She's very early. I remember that. Yes, I remember because I typically don't like to do it that early because there's still like a lot of just things happening. And I was like, oh, but you were like, I need this. And I'm like, I am I am not going to turn her down. Like she needs something. So let's see how it goes. And I remember you were one of the only people that I've worked with that early on. And I'm still so glad that we did connect and that it did work out because we worked together for quite some time.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I do. I remember that now. Wasn't it like that? Like, what is your typical?

SPEAKER_01

Is it like six months that you Yeah, even like three, like three to four months is typically where I start to see moms because like they're it's like, okay, the initial six weeks of things have worn off. I might be getting ready to go back to work. Sleep is like really shit. So I'm like, I need some help. Six weeks is still like the the like euphoric, you know, like, is this really happening? And I really want moms to like feel that, but I just there was something about you in that console. Like, I saw a lot of myself. Like you just were looking at me like, you have to do this.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And I I was like, I do, I have to do this.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I was very much I said out of my email. I don't know if you can hear it dinging or not. Um, I I remember that now. I was even the way that I found you, so I this is while while I was pregnant, I think is what it was. So while I was pregnant and I had more free time, I was to podcast all the time. And um you were you were either a client or I think maybe you started out as a client and then you started doing like um maternal mental health workshops for um Joelle. Yeah, and I listen, I don't even know who she is. I've never talked to her. I think I follow her, but I remember I was cooking and her podcast came up one day while I was pregnant. And I just remember listening to it. Like I liked to have noise in the background all the time, which you know it's a good indicator of why postpartum was what um we'll get there. And um I remember she taught she either talked about you or maybe you were on her podcast where it was something of the sorts, and I mentally bookmarked it because I was like, okay, like you have no idea what motherhood is gonna be like, you have no idea what postpartum is gonna be like. If you ever need to come back to this podcast, here you go. So I remember when I tried to find you. I feel like I feel like I remember going to your website after I ended up finding you through her page, but it like wasn't very clear or easy to me at the time on how to actually connect with you. So I was like, where's the email? Like panicking, trying to like, because at this point I was like, I don't care how much you cost, I don't care what the details are. I need you to say yes, and when when can I get on the phone with you? That's like pretty much where I was. Like when I decide on something like that's my personality. But I was clear, yeah. Like it, I I was really desperate. So if it was the six-week mark, then that was um probably close to around the time where the breastfeeding um effort was really starting to uh do a number on me. It's so interesting that you say like the first six weeks, like that euphoric um timeframe for people, because when I think about it, I was like, that is not how I would describe what the first six weeks like it felt it felt so like dangerous all the time. I just felt so threatened by everything. Um and so yeah, that's I remember finding you. Um, and then I just remember being like, yeah, like I think we use one of your prices like, cool, send me an invoice.

SPEAKER_01

Like I just don't care. Like that is what I remember too, because so many moms, right? Like, and whether you're a high functioning mom, successful mom, anytime we're faced with a price, it's like I could spend that money on my kids. We all go through this. And I remember giving you the price, and you were like, Well, send me the invoice. And I'm like, okay, do you want to like think about it? And you're like, I did, and I'm I'm good, and I can start tomorrow. And I was like, okay. And I was like, she needs like we're we're gonna go through this. But it was so funny because I did the podcast. So I was on the podcast with Joelle back when it was level 10 and she had the 10 talks, and I had blindly reached out, I had reached out to her after she had her second baby because she like, quote, hid it from the internet. And I think she had the baby, and then she shared and shared all of the shame she was getting. Like people were like, you should have told people. And she was like, Oh my god, I don't even know you people, like I'm a public figure, blah, blah, blah. So I had just reached out to her and was like, I love that you kept this for yourself, first and foremost. I was like, second, this is what I do. I wonder if there'd ever be a chance to like intersect with level 10. And she responded, and I was so surprised. And she was like, I'd love to talk to you, come on the podcast. So we just had a very like honest conversation, like you and I, right? And just like, this is what's happening, this is what's going on. And then I started to get a lot of people reaching out after that podcast. So I remember seeing you, and it was like, Where did you find me? And you were like, a podcast I booked marked. Um, please reach, please reach out today or something. And it was just you were one of the first people that contacted off that episode. And I just thought, oh my gosh, like this is how necessary these conversations are because we're not having them. No, we're not having them.

SPEAKER_00

Nobody else was having them. And I even remember I was like, you know, even before that six-week mark, and really, I mean, up until now, I've not really changed in how I share things. I've always been a like, oh, I'm just gonna say what I'm experiencing. Like, I'm just gonna share it. Like, I don't, yeah, it's a bit taboo, or sure, this is, you know, not doesn't fit the typical, like, oh, motherhood is such a blessing narrative and like aesthetic that we see online. And it is, um, but also it's like it's like fucking hard. It's like literally the hardest and the most insanely amazing thing I've ever experienced. So I remember probably like the first year postpartum, I'm like, I would hear from uh friends that I have, like close friends I have would be like, you know, there's people like in our world, like our friend group, that like think that the level at which you share is a little bit um cringe or taboo for the internet. And I'm like, really? Like, because that's what I'm going through. Like, what do you want me to to say? And so to your point, like I every time, especially up until now, that I've said some uncomfortable things, like I'll use you know, the pet aversion that I've talked about consistently. But I'm like, it's not, it's me and thousands of other moms. If we want to look at all of the content I've put out about it, and even just by like talking about that tiny little thing for the couple of times that I have, it's already in so many ways, like made it so much easier for me to start connecting with our dog because I'm not carrying all of it anymore. Right. And I feel like yeah, like I feel like that's the whole point for moms, and I'm sure that that's that's what you see as well. Like I just it's like all of them, well, you chose this, or you're built for this, or you should be grateful. And it's like, well, yeah, all of those things are true, and also like I'm fucking drowning, and I'm just saying in hopes that like someone might I don't know, like throw me a rope or just tell me right or say something.

SPEAKER_01

And I think that to your point about when you overshare, it makes people uncomfortable. That's about them, that's for them to work through, right? And and I'm not in the same space as you, but a lot of like, well, you shouldn't like really share about like the the mental health stuff because that makes it well, who does that make look like anything? It's me, like it's my story, it's my experience. And if I'm gonna offend or make some people uncomfortable, I'm okay with that because on the flip side, I'm gonna validate and normalize it for thousands of other people. And that to me, like that risk analysis, it's greater. I'd I'd rather save a thousand moms than and make ten of my close friends uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_00

I I mean, I agree with that. I think that I always try and when I go to post things that I know are heavy, um, the lens that I challenge myself to look through now is would I be proud that my daughter knew I was being dishonest? And would this give her permission when she became a mom to be honest as well? Um usually when I look at it through that lens, it just makes me feel like, okay, sure, you might these people might be frustrated about it, but I would be fine if my daughter saw this in 10 years because I would hope that when she becomes a mom, she would see this and know that it's normal, right? Like when I look at my mom's experience postpartum, I'm like, she's only now started to tell me um about that. And it was I remember, I remember that it wasn't the typical, hers was not the typical, you know, motherhood is so great aesthetic. Like it was, but she struggled. And um I just think that if if my daughter goes to have kids one one day and she struggles, I want her to feel, and I hope that we live in a world by then for women, we'll see. Um that she already sees all of these things that she's experiencing as like totally normal. Because, you know, I was telling you, and feel free like to share whatever you remember about our calls. I probably I really don't care. Um you know, I because I'm like, man, I had to have, I had to have said some crazy alarming things on those calls because I just remember, I remember my I think it was my anxiety was what was the worst at that time when we were talking and the depression aspect of my postpartum experience really, and I I want to talk about this at some point because I really want to hear your opinion, but um the depression for me really didn't show up until um last year, um way past a year postpartum. So mine was very much, at least from my experience in stages, it was the anxiety right off of the jump, and then I started to feel okay from that, and then it's like turned a corner, and then depression was just like right there. I feel like I'm just now starting to feel like okay, the cloud, the dark cloud, not just the fog, like the dark cloud of like, what's the point? Does any of this matter is finally starting to go away. So I would be curious like what you remember about some of our conversations and also like for the people listening, like um what those conversations accomplished. Like, I hate that I don't remember it, but that's true, like how much I was in survival mode. But um, not a lot of people are familiar with like maternal mental health coaching and support because nobody talks about it. And so I think it could be really helpful for people to understand, maybe through my experience, what that's like. Um consider it with anyone too.

SPEAKER_01

Absolutely. And I think that, you know, and I appreciate you bringing it to light because I think when the world thinks about maternal mental health, we think about therapy.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And people are still not on board with therapy. Yeah. Lots of different reasons, right? Cultural considerations, uh, family upbringing, all of these things, stigma. I didn't need therapy either the first time. I probably did, but like you, it was late onset, perinatal depression. Um, and I just was like, maybe I'm just sad because I'm still fat. Like that's really how I normalized it for myself. Like, I didn't lose this weight. And I'm a year postpartum, and I'm supposed to feel like myself now. And like, where do we get this? Like, where do we get these arbitrary in six months you'll sleep better, and in nine months you'll feel in a dated system. And I think that and I shared something about this on LinkedIn today, but it's like we have to stop waiting for the healthcare system to evolve, and we have to start creating services for the evolved mom. So most of the moms I'm seeing now are nine weeks to 18, 24 months postpartum because they've either recognized early, like you, I need something, or later on, these the clouds are like still there. And it's like I can't see ahead of me. And like I don't know what's happening, but I'm back to work, I've lost the weight, and I still don't feel like me. And I think the beauty in the coaching aspect is it's educational. It's yeah, you don't feel like yourself, and this is why, because you don't actually exist. You're not here anymore, right? And like I said this to you many times on the call. Like this Kate is not a pre-baby Kate. This Kate lost a baby in utero, delivered a healthy baby, and is now dealing with perinatal anxiety and is wondering, like, well, I never I never did this before. Like I never, I never felt like this before. Right. Because you've never been through this experience before.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

But all of the focus is on the baby, right? So it's like you you get pregnant, you go to the doctor, they confirm you're either happy, shocked, or taking it all in. And then we have 10 months where we do absolutely nothing for mom. We do nothing. You come into your doctor's appointment, we check your blood pressure, we have you get on the scale, we measure the baby's heart rate, how's the baby? Make sure you're not eating raw meat, make sure you sleep like this, get plenty of water and exercise. And okay. And then all of a sudden you're at your 38-week appointment, and they're like, All right, any day now, this baby can be here. And it's like, cool, I'm not feeling that great because I haven't actually slept through the night in six months, and I'm not eating because I can't hold anything down, we're not having any of these conversations. Yeah. And then we give birth to the baby and we see you at six weeks, and we say, best of luck. And then you bookmark a podcast and you find somebody that knows something, and you reach out in desperation to help when we've had 10 months to do that.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. I mean, I even remember at my six-week follow-up appointment, the questionnaire that they give you. I remember when I filled that out, I was like, oh man, they're for sure gonna like pink slip me here on the spot. Um, but I'm gonna be honest because I was I was desperate for someone to help me. Like, um, and I went back to my appointment and they didn't even talk about the form. And I was like, um, I kind of feel like those answers and my number grading marks me as a flight risk, and you guys didn't even ask me about it. Like, and so then, like, because of that, and because you're looking at, and I love my OBGYN, like if I don't think she'll ever listen to this, but love her, still see her, absolutely love her. Um, but it's just not, I remember leaving that appointment, then kind of internalizing it as like, well, I'm being, I must be dramatic because they didn't see a problem with my answers, but I'm not doing good. And I like flat out said on the forum, I'm not doing good. And it was also such a really confusing thing to feel, and I've even noticed this, you know, last year, just dealing with a lot of the depression, um, is I, you know, I've dealt with depression my whole life. Like I've always had that, you know, co-pilot. And this depression was different because it was like I felt like I was constantly asking myself, well, or I guess really gaslighting myself, like, how can you really be depressed when you're also the happiest you've ever been in your life? Like you look at your daughter and you look at your family, and you just like you can't like you can't even believe that that's been given to you. And you love her and you love your family more than anything in the whole world, but equally, you are also the saddest and lowest feeling human, like version of yourself you've ever been. And I think, at least for me, I don't know, you know, for other people that deal with postpartum depression if it kind of manifests that way. But it's like as soon as the anxiety got under control, um truly, it didn't get under control, it just kind of found its way through other aspects. But um, it's like suddenly it was just this like whiplash of like, well, you can't really, how can you be depressed if you're so in love and you're so happy? But then I'd be in that happy and in that love, and then just feel like this darkness was pulling me back. Like, what is the point of all of this? Like, you don't even deserve it, it's all gonna get taken away. Like, so I don't, you know, I don't know if if the depression aspect shows up for other people like that, or if that's like even normal. But um, that's how it showed up for me. And and when the healthcare system basically just invalidate invalidates that experience, I just feel like it makes me and probably a lot of other women really question like, well, can I even trust myself? Can I even trust what I'm feeling? And then that leads to a disconnect in one of the strongest things that we develop as a mother, which is our intuition, right? So um, yeah, I saw on online the other day, and I don't know how true this is, I want to do some research, but um someone had mentioned that um a lot of the research on postpartum care from a nutritional aspect hasn't even it, the information that they have hasn't even been based on women, they based it on men. And I didn't know that. And I'm like, wait, how does it make any sense? Like, why? And and one of the arguments was like, well, um, it it would be unethical to have someone that's postpartum like be malnourished or you know, suffer per se. And I'm like, yeah, but then the rest of the it's ethical for the rest of the population to suffer because we don't have any information, like I'll volunteer.

SPEAKER_01

Yes, I'll volunteer study. I saw something similar about um heart disease. There, I was listening to it, it was a podcast, and a woman was on, and she was talking about like she has this 3033 method, and I'm sure you're familiar with some aspect of like 30 grams of protein with each meal, 30 grams of fiber throughout the day, and three probiotic foods. And I was just like listening to it like busy work, and she was saying, like, we haven't studied hormones in heart disease with women, like all of the information we get about like heart disease and risk comes from men. And like, I think it was Mel Robbins that was doing, I can't remember the podcast. And it was like, wait, like, like, did you just so we have based our findings about women because it was like for so long we didn't study women's hearts, so we just assumed this because we're part of men, right? And it's like, but then women were living longer and women had hormone differences, and they and it's like you guys, we are a completely separate entity made up completely differently. We uh carry a human life inside of our bodies and then have that baby, then we sustain that baby for an entire year, maybe even longer, whether you're nursing, whether you're feeding them about whatever it is you're doing, it's the ultimate sacrifice. We are not the same. So, how are we not studying more care? And this is what I see all the time with postpartum mental health, especially, and even like mortality and morbidity. Yeah, that's climbing in this country. And I don't think people understand the severity of that because as women, as moms, we are the nucleus of the American family structure. 100% you go down, everybody else goes down. I don't care how strong your partner is, I have a strong one too. He rarely gets sick, but guess what? When I go down, everybody in this house suffers in some capacity.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

If we continue to turn our heads and pretend this is not happening in our backyard because I don't look like her, she doesn't look like me, that's their problem out in the Midwest, whatever it is. We can't be dying 30% of the time. And if we're black and brown, we're dying 60% of the time. Yeah. Where in the world, only here in the great land of the United States of America, is that rate double and triple other countries. So that there tells you everything we need to know about why moms suffer because We have not put enough effort into studying what is happening, specifically in the postpartum period, the perinatal period. But then, Kate, when we get the information, we just go, Yeah, wow, that's bad.

SPEAKER_00

Bummer. It makes people uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_01

It does. It does, right? And then we're like, you know what? We're not only going to tell you we don't care about you, we're going to show you. We're going to overturn Supreme Court cases that take away your rights and not having that conversation. Whatever side you fall on, you fall on. But the fact of the matter is we're we're going backwards. And moms are in healthcare, we're in systems, we're the leaders of our family, we're the breadwinners in a lot of places. And we're knowingly putting moms back to work at risk without any additional supports.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I mean, the maternity leave. I've talked about that. I've kind of like stopped talking about that a bit in content because uh it just hits the wrong side of the internet more often than not. Um and and you know, and then part of me was also like, well, I don't even I didn't even have a maternity leave. I'm sure I was telling you I was fully to work um at six weeks. So I'm a bit more in the non-traditional space given I'm my own boss. So, you know, I can't relate to having to go into an office and I can't relate to having to find somewhere private to nurse and hope that they're gonna give me that time or to pump and hope that they're gonna give me that time. Um, but I can empathize with it because it was really hard to do even when I was home. So it's a whole nother beast when you're not it in the comfort of your house.

SPEAKER_01

Yes. So and and think about this for a second, and even for the listeners, I I laughed one day because I'm like, hmm, Chad in accounting had back surgery, right? And he was off for 12 weeks, paid because he planned for this, right? He was gonna have the surgery, so he had saved up his leave, he was ready to go. And um I'm like, oh my god, we were off the same amount of time, but like I had a baby.

SPEAKER_00

You grew a brain inside of your stomach, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And my entire life shifted, everything changed, and now I'm back at work, and like he's being met with like flowers and things like that, and I'm like expected to get back to like who I once was. Like, why can't you make these decisions? Why can't you do this? Why can't you do that? And it's like I'm like, I've had a massive transformation, but like he's getting cards and people are checking in on him, and they're like, Oh, give him a break. He's just getting back after back surgery, and it's like, where are your deliverables? Now, that wasn't necessarily my experience. My full-time employer was uh fantastic and and really great supports coming back, but that's like a mind fuck. Like, get back surgery. I'm not saying back surgery is a walk in the park, but a C-section definitely is not. It's major abdominal surgery. And here you are, just like, hey, can you can you get that in? And it's like, I haven't slept in three days. I'm not on pain pills, nobody's coming to check on me and help me clean this and do that, like they are for him. I'm just expected because this is a natural part of life. Yes, it is. And guess what? Life has changed significantly in the last hundred years. But the one thing that has not caught up to that yet seems to be the way we care for and talk about maternal mental health. Maternal health, period.

SPEAKER_00

And I mean, and not even like, yes, all of those, like, you know, the surgery's hard, the pain pills are hard, like comparative to, you know, the back surgery thing. But like in that example, like he's he's not experiencing the hormonal shift that is motherhood. Because in like and this is my gripe. It's like, and I've made a lot, I've spoken a lot about like I wasn't someone that ever did the birthing classes, the parenting classes, the sleep classes. I didn't do any of that in preparation for birth. And part of it was, I think, probably fear-based. Like, well, if I just don't expose myself to all this, it won't be real. But the other part of it is I didn't see the point because I was like, well, everything that I'm understanding, and given my you know experience in the nervous system, I kind of knew like, I'm sorry, like I don't think that taking a class on how to feed my baby solids when they're able to sit up is really the help that I need right now in my um final trimester. I think someone needs to help me prepare for the dumpster fire that's going to be my yes. Um, someone needs to tell me what I should do in the moment that I do not recognize myself and genuinely believe that my family would be better off without me. Like someone needs to prepare me for that, but they don't make courses like that. There's no like those, those aren't the like, you know, go to the local rec center and and show up with your partner and do the birthing classes and then just hope to God your birth actually goes the way that you want it to go. Like, good luck.

SPEAKER_01

I've I've I've yet to work with a mom in all my years that has had that experience or at least similar. Like, I planned this. I do read about it, I see it on social media, and I'm I love that for women. But the experience really is like 90% of births don't go as planned. And that is where birth trauma starts for a lot of people, right? And we think, and like you and I had this conversation, and you may not remember it, but I remember when you shared, I remember when you shared about being pregnant with twins, and it was, I remember asking you, because you know, you always want to be careful asking somebody like, is this your first? Right? Like, this might not be my first, this might be my third, but this is my first living child, right? So it's always like, How many pregnancies have you had? And when you said, and the and it was the way you said it, it was very true to nature and being six months postpartum. But you were like, Well, I was pregnant with twins, but lost one of them in utero. So um, yeah, and then we're doing and it and it was like, Yeah, okay, like let's you know that way. Uh-huh. And and like obviously I got that from like a nervous system standpoint, like I've got to close this to move. So I remember just letting the conversation go and like mentally saying, like, we've we've got to check back in on that. Yeah. And I remember then you were like, it's like I just have this anxiety, like I've experienced depression before, but I have this anxiety and I don't. And I was talking about your birthing experience and like, how did this go? And where did this go? And and then it was like, Well, and I'm like, You lost a baby, Kate. And you're like, Well, I know it was just, and I was like, let's let's sit with that for a second. I know it's uncomfortable, but like, let's sit with it. And there was a lot of heavy emotion there. And I said, Do you think any of this anxiety is tied to the fact that you were not in control of that situation?

SPEAKER_00

100%.

SPEAKER_01

Did I say that is yes, and you it took you a minute because you you I think immediately knee jerk, you looked for a reason to be like, no, yeah. So there was a like, but it was as if like the head had to come back, and you were like, Absolutely, yeah. And I was like, let's let's sit with this. Like, you don't have to talk about it, and you're like, no, let's get uncomfortable, let's get uncomfortable. And I didn't, you know, my job is to always, and I think how I I said it to you, like, therapy is peeling back the layers, right? I don't do therapy. I have a therapist, I love therapy. I think it's a beautiful thing. Everybody should participate. Yeah, but coaching is walking alongside of somebody, pointing things out, right? And that's what I was doing with you. I'm like, let's sit in the car, let's have a conversation, let's look around. Like, could this be? Oh, do we see this up ahead? What's in the rear of you? Is there still something in the backseat we should kind of let off at the next stop? And it was through that, like getting uncomfortable that you were like, I can see where the anxiety developed, but like, how do I get rid of it now? And it was like, there we go, let's let's start talking about what how it's showing up, right? Because that's the other thing too. We don't know about these things, we don't know signs and symptoms. So you're just like, I don't, I'm not anxious, I'm just like thinking these things. I'm not sleeping, I'm not, and it's like, you just gave me five symptoms of perinatal anxiety.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

But you don't know that. You don't know that because again, you went to your doctor and they gave you a thumbs up and said good luck. And then back to your point about the screening tool, the Edinburgh screening tool, like I get it, but I don't get it. And I always have this beef with the system. It's not an assessment, it's a clinical form that I fill out, and it is it depends on what I'm looking for. One time I was very honest about it. A pediatrician gave me a piece of paper and he was like, I don't think you're doing well. So, like, you can call a couple of these people. And I was like, Cool. And the first time I lied because I was petrified. I'm like, if I say yes to all of this, they're gonna take my baby.

SPEAKER_02

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Because we don't say to mom, hey, we're gonna screen you, and then based on your answers, this is what we're the steps we're gonna take. Was we just leave it out there for me to assume. And when you do that to a mom that's sleep deprived, dealing with a colicky baby, is dealing with perinatal anxiety, we're not setting mom up for a good space. So she lies, she internalizes it, she goes home, she tries to figure out what's wrong with her. She follows somebody on Instagram that has their life completely figured out after having their seventh baby at home in a tub, and they're just like something's wrong with me.

SPEAKER_02

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01

And that's what I remember telling you, and it's always my role for moms get off of social media. I know that that's the place you want to go because you want to like feel connected to the world and normalize things, but it's the most dangerous place for new moms to go.

SPEAKER_00

It's so interesting. I feel like I vaguely remember you telling me that. Um, it's so interesting that you say that because I went um last month I I went and visited one of my best friends who just had a baby. And she's about, she was about six weeks when I went down there. Um, and I flew down there to just be an adult. Like I told her, I was like, I'm not coming to see the baby, I'm not coming to hang out, like I'm coming to be put to work or to be the shoulder for you to cry on, like whatever you need, because I you know I get it, right? And as I, you know, spent the weekend with her and just for the first time in a while, um, was reminded of so many of those early motherhood things because you fully blocked out, right? And so I'm seeing her do all these things, and I'm like, oh my God, I remember that. Like the writing on the bottles, the measuring out, the sound of the pump. Oh my gosh, like it all took me back. And I remember, and I actually wrote this in my notepad because it kind of is gonna tie into the program I'm gonna launch in a couple of weeks. And I was like, I need to like make a piece of content about this. I remember when I was down there, I was thinking, I was like, man, how much of my postpartum experience could have been different had I not um been online as much. And when I say been online as much, I mean to the degree that the algorithm will start to show you. I remember at that time, all I was seeing over and over again was videos on SIDs. Videos Oh, yes. It's like it because it's like when you like that's the problem with with social media, right? Like it becomes this like you if you even pause on a video and watch it for three seconds longer than you're watching other videos, the algorithm is gonna see that oh, that video is talking about something related to the first month postpartum. Okay, all of these other things like sudden infant death syndrome or um unsafe sleep, right? And I remember so much of what I was seeing because I I don't see it now. I can't remember the last time I saw a Facebook grief post from a mom. I don't even know. I can't remember the last time I saw a video about unsafe sleep, but at the time then it was all I was seeing. And it's like we don't realize how big of a problem that is while we're in it. Like we don't realize how big of that, a big of a problem that is until we are completely out of it and see the influence it had on the experience that we were trying to get in. I think, yes, I st I 100% still would have had the postpartum postpartum experience that I had, given that it was challenging. But I wonder all the time how many of those moments that I would maybe could look back and actually remember a bit more had I not been so consumed with I'm sitting there rocking my child, and all I can think about is this random lady in North Dakota that posted the saddest thing on Facebook and it made me cry. And now I've been thinking about it for four hours, and it's created this like level of hypervigilance in me that like I can't even focus on rocking my child right now, and no wonder why she won't go to sleep. I'm completely fucking tense. Like, you know what I mean? Like I realized that as I was down there with her. Um, not that not because she was doing it, but just because I was able to kind of think for the first time of like, what was like what was that first year like? And how could it have been different, specifically with the internet? Um a bit more intentional. Um it's terrifying.

SPEAKER_01

It it really is how and you know where I well that and also well, and what scares me about AI is so many moms are like, so I went to like chat GPT and put in my and I'm like, like I I'm fine if you want to type something into AI and and help you brainstorm content or something, but when it comes to your mental health, you need to talk to a person, yeah, robots, chat GPT, all of that kind of stuff. Like, yeah, it could give you, and and you're a coach, like it could give me like a nutritional plan, it could give me, but like it's missing the human component. So when you write on that form, that form says, Are you experiencing joy? You're like, fuck joy, I haven't had joy in six months. No. But if I'm sitting here and I'm assessing you and I'm like, hey, tell me the last time you experienced joy. I'm seeing things, I'm watching you, I'm observing behaviors, looking at your response time. Like I said, when I asked you about the baby, you it was the knee jerk, like, I've got to defend this. And then like I watched it in real time. You were like, Yes, you know, and then it was like sit there and pause in that silence that was uncomfortable and deafening. But it's like now we have moms turning to Chat GPT to say, My baby's this and this. And it's like, Jesus Christ, that is not what it's designed for. So please, who's ever listening to this, get off social media, get off of chat GPT, don't Google symptoms, don't join a Facebook group that's run by the local mom down the street that has seven kids, and you have to vet these programs. And I think that's where I came into this space because I was that same person. I was looking for somebody, and I was putting myself out on the internet. No shit, there I'm already like my baby's the size of this. The internet is like, here we go, flood you with all of this. You stress about sleep, you stress about eating, you stress about the what coulds happen. And then we wonder, like, why am I feeling anxious? Because the system around you has been created to do that, to make you sicker in in and of itself. And I remember thinking to myself, I was in a Facebook room, my son had colic in the middle of the pandemic. This I delivered him before vaccines, everything. It was me and my husband, that was it. In in um, I had a plan C section. And like in that moment, I'm like, there's perinatal anxiety. Like, I didn't think it right in the moment. I'm like, oh, I'm so happy. And then it was like once I started to feel things, I'm like, that's when it started. Like this did not go as planned. I had to wear a mask, and I took my mask off, and then I was yelled at for taking my mask off. And I'm like, I'm not meeting my baby wearing a mask, I'm not doing this. Yeah, and like all of these things start happening. Somebody had colic. And I joined a Facebook group. And Kate, you'll love this. The mom's in there.

SPEAKER_00

I probably won't love this.

SPEAKER_01

Explain. And by love it, I mean you're gonna hate this. Explained to me that babies who have colic are babies that wish they were never born.

SPEAKER_04

Oh man.

SPEAKER_01

And they're going to be unhappy. They're gonna be unhappy for the rest of their lives. So here I am, a mental health practitioner, right? Mom that has been through postpartum challenges. And for a brief moment, I'm like, oh my God, they're right. See? Internet, yeah. Okay. So if I, with the education in the background in this field, for a split second, was like, oh my God, they're right. What about the mom that has gotten no support or education or has any background in this, that is working in finance, that's never been exposed to any type of mood or anxiety disorders, has no friends and has family that are going to judge her. What do you think she's gonna do? She's gonna believe that and she's gonna sit in that Facebook group, and all that's gonna do is exacerbate her symptoms and delay any type of treatment outcome she can have.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I mean, and compl keep her completely hyper-vigilant, which is why you know, just being designed to do. I mean, I think the other layer to that's I mean, honestly, that's worse than what I thought you were gonna say. I didn't expect I never heard anyone say that. That's crazy work. Lord. Um, and it probably came from someone who just had multiple perfect births and pregnancies, and totally. Um, and you know, it's interesting because even as like someone I and it was probably me being a little bit naive, and even thinking back, like I didn't have a birth plan. So I didn't, and and when I really think back to like, why didn't I make a birth plan? Why didn't I do any research on um bottle nipple sizes? Like, I remember we found out that was a thing when she was like three months, and we're like, oh my gosh, like why didn't we know that? Right. And when I think back to all of my lack of preparation during pregnancy, I think when I experienced the loss of the twin, that was the moment for me where it was like, I am just gonna disconnect from all of this because if I even try, like I don't even want to try, like as a control freak, I don't even want to try and control this because what the heck just happened with that? Like that was the craziest experience of my life, and nobody can tell me why. And I had found a Facebook group of all of the moms that had experienced what I did, and it was like the same stuff. Like nobody really has the answers, but we're all looking for validation within one another. And I feel like when I I think back to before I gave birth, I didn't really know much about postpartum anxiety and depression, partly because I didn't really do a lot of prep work for birth and motherhood in general. I was just like, I'll figure it out.

SPEAKER_01

You know what I mean? Like 90% of moms, that's yeah, like nobody's nobody's doing it, nobody's doing that work yet.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, they didn't and they didn't have the internet 100 years ago, but you know, and I'll figure it out. And um, I because I I didn't really know much about it, I kind of knew it was a possibility, obviously given some of the conversations me and my mom had about her experience, but um I I think a part of me also wanted to believe, like, well, that won't happen to me. Of course, I've got a loving husband, I've got resources, I can, you know, hire. I talk about this all the time. Like a lot of my village was paid for because we're family out of state and the family we have close, they work. And so I paid for my village and I recognize the privilege that that is. Um, but like all of those reasons kind of made me feel like, eh, it's not gonna happen to me because I got everything I need to prevent that. And so then I think for a lot of women, probably that experience it, um, it comes out of left field. And I think it I keep coming back to that feeling of like, we kind of like gaslight ourselves a little bit. Like, well, no, I can't, how dare I be a mom that has postpartum anxiety? Doesn't that take away from my ability to properly care for this child? And then it's like all of this fear gets wrapped up into it as well, and we can't even just like have the experience that we're having. We can't we can't even just feel what we're feeling because there's that pressure around it to be like, well, I can't give anything but my best to this child. So I refuse to believe that I'm not at my best right now. This just must be motherhood, and like let's not even talk about what the sleep deprivation does to mental health. That for me, I'll never know. But I think that had I not been truly so sleep deprived, I think my experience could have been a little bit different.

SPEAKER_01

I think I would have struggled, but the sleep deprivation was um painful because you also weren't aware, and that was the first question I asked you was how much sleep are you averaging? And I said, I want you to go through today, and it was, I think it was a Tuesday. And I said, I want you to count tonight, Wednesday, all the way through to next Monday, and I want you to come back with your average next week. What was it was like 3.5, maybe. And I and I said, Okay, I said, let me give you a little bit of education here. First, first and foremost, this is not uncommon. You are not like alone on it, you're not doing anything wrong, but let's do a little bit of education on the science behind the sleep deprivation and what that is doing to you, to your nervous system, right? And that's the thing that people don't recognize. Like for those first three months, you are in the sympathetic state of mind. You are in fight or flight by design. So, like people are like, I feel so anxious. You're supposed to. Yeah, you're supposed to, because if something happens to your baby, you're supposed to be able to react. If something else is going, you're supposed to be high alert. All the moms that are like, I'm sitting and seeing if they're breathing. Every single mother has done that. Every single one. She hasn't posted about it because it's not cute, but everybody's done that because your body is designed to protect you. The problem happens is when you're not sleeping, so your brain and your body are not getting an opportunity to connect, and your brain is not able to say to your nervous system, it's okay. Yeah, you can relax, you can chill out. So you lay down and then bing, you're up, and you're like, oh yeah, and you're back into the cycle of the sympathetic state. You have to come. Consciously and willingly do things to put yourself into that parasympathetic state. But we rush that. People are like, I should be sleeping by now. I can't tell you that my baby slept through the night and they're six days old. I'm like, congratulations, you're gonna you're gonna hit some real shit on the back end, I hope.

SPEAKER_00

You know, we rage more than that. Like, just shut up, okay? Just celebrate mom.

SPEAKER_01

Please do that, right? Call somebody, go out to dinner with your husband, do something really great. But but then share what happens later because I know something's happening. But it's like we have these stages of postpartum and we don't educate moms on it, right? So it's like there's specific stages you're gonna go through, and the timeline varies. So when you said, like, I hit that depression at like a year postpartum, yeah, you did because everything finally settled down. And when the anxiety was gone, all these other feelings started to come in and they were unfamiliar and they were uncomfortable. And it's like, oh my god, now what? This is a common practice, but again, we don't talk about it. And when I tell people like late onset, we reference it as a diagnosis because it has to meet the criteria in a timeline, right? So it's usually perinatal or postpartum up to one year, yeah. Anything after that is clinical depression, major depressive disorder. In my world, it's tied to postpartum, so you're still dealing with perinatal up until 24 months. Yeah, that's really what it is. And then at that point, things feel really great, and then most women end up pregnant again, and then the cycle starts, right? So it's like all of these things happen, but we we miss the mark to tell moms. And I think you said something really interesting to me and not interesting, and like, oh, I've never heard this before, but everybody says, like, I didn't prepare, right? I didn't because I didn't think this was gonna happen to me, right? But our thoughts aren't gonna create that. Like, if I prepare for this, then I'm gonna go through it. Why aren't we thinking about it? If I prepare for this, when I get there, I'll be fine. And I say it's like a fire drill, right? Anywhere you've worked in corporate America, I'm sure you were in a building and it was like, this is the fire brute, this is the plan. We don't wait till the fire alarm rings and go, like, oh my God, where do we go? How do we get out of here? But that's what we're doing with postpartum mental health. We wait until that fire alarm goes off, and then we are searching for this village and these individuals to come in and provide that support that we could have been planning for. And that is really why I like what I do because I'm trying to get moms during that pregnancy period and early postpartum to do a fourth trimester program.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And it focuses on all of the feeding, the sleep deprivation, the self-image, signs and symptoms. I can't tell you the amount of moms that come in and they're like, I'm feeling like this, this, this, and this. And I'm like, you're experiencing some perinatal depression. And they're like, really? And I'm like, yes, and you should see a therapist so that you can get diagnosed and work on a treatment plan. But I want to help you work through your birth because that's the missing piece in maternal mental health. The baby is great, baby is here, but who's loving mom? You gave birth to two people that day, and you only prepared for one of those births.

SPEAKER_00

I'm I am almost done reading a book right now, and I it's I don't have it in front of me, but the whole premise of the book, she talks about, and I may may pronounce it wrong, is it matricescence? Matrescence. Yeah. Um and I the word was familiar, but like I had never sat and thought about it. I read this book, and I'm like, oh my gosh, like, yeah, it's like the birth of the mom. And then I'm like, that's exactly what Nicole talks about all the time. Like, of course, that's what is missing for every mom everywhere, regardless of how many kids you have. Because yeah, it really like, even just like you saying some of this conversation, like kind of remembering, like, man, I feel like at one point you told me to like, because I had the nighttime scariest. And I feel like I remember talking to you about that. And I think you told me to maybe like take a warm shower, and like all of that is like starting to come back to me now.

SPEAKER_01

But and you said at one point, and and I love this, and I think highlighting this is important. You were like, I just can't get anything done. It's like I'm either nursing or I'm pumping or I'm trying to figure out the situation, or I'm like tracking feedings and I'm doing all this and I'm doing that. And I said, Um, have you thought about like talking to a dual, like bringing someone in into the house? And you were very quick, you were like, I don't want a stranger watching love. And I said, I don't either. I said, but I want somebody to help you. And you were like, Oh, I didn't even think about that. Like your thought was like doula coming in, taking your baby because you can't. And and it was like, okay, let's like, why did that feel so strong? Like, why did you, you know, and it made a lot of sense to me. Having having a loss in utero, it there's anxieties right there. Moms that are going through IVF, higher risk for perinatal anxiety, and like, no shit, right? But like, I should be happy I have this baby here. I work so hard to get this baby here. Absolutely. And you should be completely anxious about having this baby because you work so hard to get the baby here. Yeah, but you were like, I said, you don't have to look at it through one lens. Take a step back because you're like right here. Just let's take a step back and see the bigger picture. The doula, doulas are amazing individuals. She can come into the house and say, Kate, what can I help you with? Can you wash the bottles? Can you cut up some fruit? Because I haven't had any in like six days. Could you do this? Could you prep the bottles? Can you hold the baby while I use the bathroom? She doesn't have to watch love. You watch love. You ask her for help in other areas. And I remember you were your comment was, you're a fucking genius. And I'm like, I'm not. I will take that. I will take that compliment. But I'm like, I'm just able to look at it through clear eyes right now because I'm not in the postpartum period. And like that really is the joy of having a coach. That's not, and I'm not saying a therapist wouldn't have given you that information, but that was more or less done in our chat.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_01

Like the right, where it was like you were, I was getting an idea of like where you were spiraling the most. And I was looking at that. I'm like, a lot of these chats are coming in in the evening hours or the early morning, like she's got to be up nursing, she's sleep deprived. It was helping me understand where you were from like a contextual standpoint to say, like, I was sleep last night. And you're like, it was total shit. And I'm like, exactly what I thought. So we're not gonna do anything today, we're not gonna work on anything today, we're gonna talk about sleep strategies.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Because until you got that to a comfortable place, you didn't have the capacity to receive any of this, right? And it and like that's the thing for me all the time. Like matrescence, the birth of the mom, like we can't put all of the focus on the baby. And I know you could tell me probably in if I gave you some time to think about it, how many times love pooped a day, how much she was drinking each and every day, how often she was sleeping. But if I asked you how many meals you were eating, how often did you use the bathroom, and how much water were you consuming, you wouldn't never be able to tell me. Yeah, because you were not a focus of your own postpartum journey.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And that's what I'm changing. I'm giving moms the postpartum tracker so that she can see her milestones parallel to her baby, giving her permission to track her growth and her evolution. You celebrated when love rolled over, you celebrated when she started to crawl, you celebrated when she started talking. What about your journey? Did you celebrate? Nothing, right? Because we're like, well, we're just supposed to get through it. Sure.

SPEAKER_00

I'm supposed to sacrifice.

SPEAKER_01

But how about if love was three months old and you were expecting her to walk?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

That'd be an unfair expectation put on her, wouldn't it?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. So how many of those did you put on yourself?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. I mean, it's it's the it's the hypercritic meets hormone, dumpster, sleep-deprived postpartum version. And it's like both of them duking it out, and it's yeah, it's me and everybody. And it's so, you know, we could probably have a whole nother conversation about the women that are very, very ambitious. And when I say ambitious, what I actually mean is the women that have used their careers as a trauma response and a coping strategy because they kind of parallel, you know. Um, you know, we'll talk about that later, but uh nobody wants to hear that. Um the that because I never resonated with the whole um, well, I'll just I'll just um not work. And I I I I hate I never want to say like I'll just be a mom because that's not what I mean, but like, you know what I mean? Um and that is a whole new ball game because what do you mean I can't be productive? What do you mean I can't, you know, keep scratching the itch that makes me feel like I'm good enough? Um, what do you mean that just you know squirting milk out of my boob is good enough? No, it's not. Like that it can't, it's not provided me a paycheck, it's not provided me status, it's not provided me dopamine. Like, um, so that's a you know, that's a whole nother layer to it as well. That I think for those women that come into motherhood carrying that, um, it's so incredibly important to have these conversations and have the right, have the right prep work because that identity loss is huge. I'm ambitious, but I, you know, I'm finally now to a point where I'm actually not sad about the fact that I don't want to chase the world anymore. It took me two years to not be messed up about that or feel like my ego took a hit. Now I'm just like, yeah, I just want to be comfortable and I want to be a mom. But that was that was that was a a mountain to climb in the last two years for sure.

SPEAKER_01

So it is because there's there is a sense of losing yourself. And I think we don't do a good job of grieving that. Yeah, like you're allowed to, right? You know, when people say so many dated things like, oh, you lose yourself and you do you absolutely do, but it's more of a shedding. You have to shed who you once were because that version of you is not equipped to be a mom. So everything that you're going through, the struggles, you're you're developing the resilience and the skills to carry you into the next chapter.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And it took you two years to do that. That's the common threshold. But again, it's not what you see on social media.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

You see the one that got back to everything, you know, six months in and all. And I always say there's a there's a trade-off, right? What you're gonna see this beautiful stuff, but on the back end, they're really dealing with some monsters or they're dealing with some challenges. And I think that we have to stop using people's content as a blueprint for our journey.

SPEAKER_02

I agree.

SPEAKER_01

And that's what I'm telling moms. Like, that's great. You and I are very we're both moms, right? We're both moms, we're fair skinned, we're dark haired. That's there we go. Yeah, we have completely different backgrounds, completely different um risk and protective factors. Like, they're not the same. So I might be able to, like, oh, I would like to do some of the things the kids doing, you do some of the things Nicole's doing. But when the situations on the ground are not even, you're not going to have the same outcome. And you have to stop thinking that you're going to. I think that that's the the problem that moms do. And turning to trusted people to get that help and to read the right books. And like when you're gonna buy a mom a what to expect when expecting, buy her something about her mental health too.

SPEAKER_00

God, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

I remember check in on her mental health.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I sent somebody. Um, I don't know if you still do the butterfly boxes, but I I sent that to one of my mom. Oh, I sent it to Olivia, and she's probably gonna listen to this podcast.

SPEAKER_01

Um, yeah, I mean, it's just um yeah, I we want to know, but moms want to know that somebody else is out there thinking about them and and caring about them, right?

SPEAKER_00

And it's like thinking about it in the ways that they're actually thinking about it. Like the like, oh wow, you I'm not the only one having this thought right now. Okay, so let me just take it out of my brain and hold it right here. Wow, so it's not as heavy anymore. Like we all think the same thing. Anytime I post polarizing stuff about motherhood, which is crazy that they call it polarizing, and I'm just like, I'm just being honest, I'm just saying how I feel. It's like people are like, Oh my god, I thought I didn't know anyone else felt that way. And I'm like, Yeah, dude, welcome to the club. Like, anything else? Anywhere wanna like ask if I feel because I guarantee I do. Like, um, and again, like I I have a daughter, and I want her to, if she wants to be a mom one day, like I want her to feel so secure in expressing and saying that it's hard and asking for help and not feeling bad, like that means her experience is gonna be better. Like, that's how we break the generational that we all want to be in therapy, like we all talk about it.

SPEAKER_01

Like, oh yeah, are we actually doing what we need to do though? So that's the thing, and you know that, right? You can you can have the experience, but then it really boils down to like doing the work. Yeah, the work. And I think like having the support to do that, but I that group think too is really, really important. And I that's why I think the like the group experience, one that I'm starting now, it was a fully funded program um by a woman that I were um, she sits on the board for Postpartum Support International. Her sister, Andrea, died by suicide three months postpartum. And I mean, the story and like her in Cairo, her name is Kyra, Kyra Vachi is the is the surviving sister and who I have linked up with, and she is just an amazing human being. And when I tell you taking pain and putting it into purpose, she founded this organization called Andrea's Wish in support of her sister, and they do all of this fundraising. And like two years ago, they paid for dualas for women in like um, I think it was like Baltimore County to receive like free dual of services for three months or six months. And now she's doing a donation to my program. So she fully funded the fourth trimester group program for 10 moms. So I have 10 moms starting in this program next Tuesday for the next three months for free.

SPEAKER_00

Okay, wait, okay, so this is like a perfect segue for you to tell me about, or we'll tell everyone listening. Yes, and me um about everything you have, everything you have available, everything you have coming up. Um and I'll put all of that information in the show notes as well. But like, yeah, what okay, so there's I know you have a book.

SPEAKER_01

So there's that, yes. So the fourth trimester program's launching. Stay tuned for how that's gonna be. I love that these moms are getting it for free because they need it. They need it. And we've got some like 10-week postpartum to eight month postpartum moms. So I think it's gonna be a really good circle of moms, but we're it's all education. So every other week we're doing a a call, a Zoom call for an hour and a half, and we're covering content, sleep deprivation, PMADs, the birth of the mom. All of the things that nobody talks about, and we're gonna do this as a group experience.

SPEAKER_00

Love that.

SPEAKER_01

Love that. I'm so excited for this and so thankful to Kyra for for that opportunity. Yeah um, I do have so I launched a postpartum tracker, which is a like a this super cool little booklet, and it's um maybe like 10 or 11 pages, but it's really it's a it's a cheap little thing. It's a nine dollar purchase. Thank you and it focuses on mom's growth, the birth of the mom, and like how we measure mom's growth and progress postpartum parallel to their babies. So we're checking in on where baby is and we're matching where mom is and we're reflecting on that. Really excited for that. We just relaunched our whole mom circle, which is a paid monthly, the lowest cost, it is a$24 a month group space where moms can come and get resources. We have physical therapists in there, um pelvic floor therapists, obs, myself, um, health and fitness folks, um lactation consultants, sleep consultants, because the issue is mom goes her six-week appointment, she leaves, and then the baby doesn't sleep. She can't nurse, she's having all these troubles, she doesn't know where to go. So we invite her into the whole mom circle where there's trusted embedded providers that she can reach out to. There's documents listed for them. I do a monthly call in there, just kind of like a QA, a 30-minute check-in. Um, and then if they want links to those providers, we do a warm handoff so that it's not like, oh, reach out to Coach Kate. It's like, no, here's Coach Kate, here's Nicole, meet, talk, get together. And then from there, moms can like build some community in there. A lot of moms then want to like continue and to do one-on-one work with me, which is always fun, but it's the higher, you know, end of things. So it's a it's a privilege to be able to afford that. So that that circle is a really special place right now, and that is what I want to see really building because moms don't have access to other moms and they don't have access to trusted providers. And my mission is always if I can't help you, I will absolutely link you to somebody who can.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

So I even get moms that come in that are in like Colorado and they're like, I just I need to find a therapist. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Okay.

SPEAKER_01

I always get on postpartum support international because most of the therapists on there have a perinatal mental health certification. So I tell moms, always look for a PMHC after somebody's name. That means they have specialized training. So we're looking for that. So we've got a lot of cool things in the mix. I think the coolest thing that I have coming up that I haven't really told anybody about is The Birthday. The birth of the mother. So yeah. So we are this is um out for release. I did just kind of a pre-sale for myself and a couple of close friends. Born Together, the birth of the mother. Um, I think this is my favorite of all the books because this one really focuses in on that work, that internal work of being born alongside your baby and how to really enjoy that process and how to prioritize your birth without the guilt, without the selfish feelings. And the cool thing that I did with this book is in the back of the book is a QR code to join the circle.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, love, love that. I was gonna say, I didn't know about the circle, but I have a client right now who I'm working with one-on-one, and she's very postpartum. And we've been talking a lot about finding her um public floor um supports so many other things. And I'm I'm like, wrap up this Zoom, message my client, go check this out because that's right within her budget as well.

SPEAKER_01

And that's the thing, right? Like, we don't my goal is I want to help every mom because I feel like nobody is really helping mom, and unless she's saying she needs therapy. This isn't therapy, this is a circle because when the healthcare system cuts you off at six weeks, we welcome you into the circle that is continuity. It doesn't stop. Yeah, and it's like if they need health and fitness, I'm like, hey, I have somebody, I know a couple people. This is do a consultation with them. It's about giving them more without them having to do that work. Definitely, and that is how we improve maternal mental health and outcomes for our moms and ultimately our children.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I love it. Oh my gosh. Okay, so I'm gonna need all of these links because absolutely immediately. Um, but I think I have all of your links as well. Um, and I have just so appreciated connecting with you again. It's it's so good to see you in this space. It it it's for me too, it's like, wow, I feel like I am not coming to her with my hair on fire. And that's like it's so like uh it's like redemptive in a way. I mean, so I appreciate your time today so, so very much. Um, for anyone listening, I will link everything that she just talked about in the show notes. I'm also gonna link her Instagram. I'll get your website. Um, and then yeah, please go check her out. Um, she was absolutely amazing for me. And again, I appreciate your time.

SPEAKER_01

I'm so thankful. Okay, thanks for bringing me on and thanks for the work you're doing and um getting uncomfortable having conversations, normalizing things for a lot of women. And I just I truly love seeing you as this version um and knowing that I was responsible for some pieces of helping you through that. Huge part. You're responsible for a huge part of that, I think about you often. So likewise.

SPEAKER_00

Thank you.