The Future of Mortgage Is Here: AI, Data & Human Connection Explained with Austin Niemiec

What actually separates top-producing loan officers from everyone else?

It’s not rates. It’s not luck. And it’s definitely not working harder.

In this episode of The Way with Dino Katsiametis, Dino sits down with Austin Nemic, Chief Revenue Officer at Rocket Pro, to break down the real drivers of success in today’s mortgage market.

From his early days as a 22-year-old loan officer during the 2008 financial crisis to leading one of the most influential platforms in the industry, Austin shares a masterclass on leadership, AI, sales psychology, and scaling a mortgage business in a rapidly changing world. 

This conversation dives deep into why most loan officers struggle, how AI is reshaping productivity, and why human connection, not technology, is still the ultimate competitive advantage.

If you want to grow your business, stay relevant, and outperform your competition… this episode is required listening.

🔑 Key Takeaways & Bullet Points

• Why loan officers focus too much on rates—and why that’s a mistake
• The real reason top producers outperform (hint: it’s not knowledge)
• How AI is transforming lead conversion, follow-up, and efficiency
• Why “technology should enhance humans—not replace them”
• The concept of “speed of the game” and how it drives success
• Why most loan officers burn out—and how to avoid it
• How to use better conversations to increase conversion and client trust
• The future of mortgage: AI, automation, and human connection combined
• Why picking a niche is the fastest path to scaling your income
• How to build a business that creates both income and lifestyle freedom

Thanks for listening to "The Way With Dino Katsiametis"  
 For full show notes, links, and extra episode resources, visit dinokatsiametis.com.
Follow Dino for weekly clips and mortgage leadership insights on
instagram.com/dinokatsiametis | linkedin.com/in/dinokatsiametis
Learn more about Ethos Lending at ethoslending.com.  

Transcript

Dino - Austin Raw

Austin Raw: [00:00:00] Yeah.

Dino - Austin Raw: So I'm just getting right into it here. Okay. Hey Austin, how are you man?

Austin Raw: well, Dino, how are you?

Dino - Austin Raw: I am good, thank you. It's good. Uh, being on the flip, 'cause I think you interviewed me seven, eight years ago or

Austin Raw: I remember it was The Stronger Together podcast and I was terrified to butcher your last name 'cause it's a tough one. Dino Ka Citis. Did I do it right?

Dino - Austin Raw: Okay. So, so you

Austin Raw: Ah,

Dino - Austin Raw: and you weren't even scared to do it this time about that. All right. We're gonna, we're gonna just, for everybody here, we're gonna do just a quick little five second lesson on how to say my last name. And it's, it's, it's just like, it's spelled only, you're gonna pretend you're Greek and you're gonna say, Kaia Metis.

Austin Raw: oh man. Kaia

Dino - Austin Raw: Katia Matis. There you go.

Austin Raw: Kaia Metis. There we go.

Dino - Austin Raw: There it is. You can, you can go have a Guido now or a [00:01:00] gyro and, and feel good about it. All right, dude. So, so listen, I, I have a ton of questions to ask you. Um, I want to like, first question is like, who are you today, both personally and professionally? Then I'm gonna take you back to day one and kind of walk back through your journey.

All hit all the major milestones back to today

Austin Raw: Let's

Dino - Austin Raw: So who are you today personally, professionally?

Austin Raw: So professionally, I'll start there. I am the Chief Revenue Officer of Rocket, which is a fancy way of saying, um, I have the honor and privilege to lead our Rocket Pro space right now as a Chief Revenue Officer. I've worn a couple different hats, but right now I live, breathe, eat, sleep, rocket Pro and how we serve folks like you, Dino, in the broker community, um, which is exciting.

Personally, I'm a father and I'm a husband. Um, my wife Theresa. My three boys, they're nine, six and four, three little meatheads and they keep me going, man. I mean, between football and hockey and all the other things, [00:02:00] um, it's never a dull moment in the Nemic household. So between growing this business and hanging out with my, my wife and kids, that's about all I have time for.

Dino - Austin Raw: And how long have you been married?

Austin Raw: Uh, we just celebrated our 10th wedding anniversary, uh, back in June, so we're going on our 11th here soon.

Dino - Austin Raw: Nice. Um, so, so I gotta ask, are you tall?

Austin Raw: I am six foot. I

Dino - Austin Raw: Six

Austin Raw: know if you consider that tall. I think it's above average.

Dino - Austin Raw: I mean, I'm, I'm six four, so no, still little,

Austin Raw: we're not standing next to,

Dino - Austin Raw: I was telling somebody in the office that I was interviewing you, and she, she, you know what her reply was? Oh, is that the tall, good looking one? I'm like, I don't think he's tall.

Austin Raw: I'll take it. I'll take both of those things.

Dino - Austin Raw: you're the tall, good looking one from now on.

Okay.

Austin Raw: I am

Dino - Austin Raw: All right. So let's go, let's, let's go back to day one. Um, how long have you been [00:03:00] in the business? How long ago was that?

Austin Raw: I've been in the business, I've been with Rocket over 17 seasons, so I'll celebrate my 18th year, um, here in next February. And so it's been, it's been a minute and I came right outta college to Rocket. So this has been my first and only, and last job

Dino - Austin Raw: Okay. And did you play sports in college?

Austin Raw: I went to Hillsdale College in Michigan. I played football and so I,

Dino - Austin Raw: why. That's why you've been there for 17 seasons.

Austin Raw: that's right. And I guess the journey to it was, I graduated at the end of oh eight and so the world was on fire. Um, you know, it was right in the mix of the financial crisis. I had a marketing degree, a major finance minor.

There was no jobs available in marketing, and I wanted to stay in Michigan. Uh, I got a big family in, in metro Detroit, and, you know, I wanted to work hard. I wanted to build a career and I wanted to work for a good [00:04:00] company. And so Quicken Loans back then, uh, formerly known as Quicken Loans, was hiring, uh, for LO position.

And so my family thought I was nuts getting into the mortgage industry at the end of oa, but I did it and it was the best decision I ever made.

Dino - Austin Raw: What was, what was Quicken Loans like back then? How big were they and what was the culture like? Because was it, was it still Rocket or did Rocket take him over? I don't, I remember Quicken. I just don't remember if it was the same company or not.

Austin Raw: Yeah, so a little history lesson on our, our company's history. So we started as a broker back in 1986, rock Financial. We were a broker for a while, then we grew and we scaled, and we built a branch model. And then back in the late. Nineties, uh, Intuit purchased us and we became Quicken Loans, but Intuit purchased us, but we're still ran by every Dan Gilbert, bill Emerson, our leadership team.

And then we actually bought the company back from Intuit, just, I believe it was a few years later, but we [00:05:00] kept the name Quicken. So Quicken Loans up until we re rebranded to Rocket. So that's a little bit of the journey. But yeah, we were still quick and loans when I started at the beginning of 2009, and it was small.

I think we had, I don't know, just under a thousand loan officers. Uh, we thought we were big. I think we were the, uh, I think, I think my brand on the phone was, Hey, we're the, if you remember, if you ever heard of TurboTax? Yes. Okay. Well, Intuit, Quicken. So we've kinda leaned on the Intuit brand. I think we were the 15th largest lender in America.

And then every year we just kept chipping away, chipping, chipping away, and then became the largest. So it was cool. I thought the company was huge when I joined and I remember thinking, man, I wish I was back on the ground floor back when we were a broker. I know I kind of was on the ground floor.

Dino - Austin Raw: How many of the guys are there? A lot of the guys that are still there that were there back then?

Austin Raw: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, my training class, I think there was a grand total of eight of us because again, it was at the end of oh eight, so we weren't hiring big [00:06:00] classes. There's still a few of us left. Yes. But at the senior leadership level, yeah, there's a lot. There's a lot of folks still with us.

Dino - Austin Raw: So you started schlepping loans and um, and how did that go outta the gate? Were you a natural.

Austin Raw: I actually loved it. I remember, I mean, I was 21 years old, 22. I remember putting a headset on and I just remember, I'm like, I get to ask people social security number. I get to pull their credit. I get to review all their debts, ask 'em how much money they make, ask 'em how much they have in the bank, ask 'em about their emotional goals.

And I'm like, I have the freedom to ask people all these questions that are like wild as a 21-year-old. And so. That was exciting for me. And then I didn't know a whole lot about mortgages, so I remember just hiding behind, like building rapport and trying to make people laugh and digging deep about everything but the mortgage.

And then when I presented the mortgage, tying it to like who they are and why it helped them and it works. And what I found early was, you know, [00:07:00] people, people make decisions on emotion and charisma and, and you can do a lot by just being curious and asking questions and, and understanding who they are as a human.

And sometimes when you actually learn a lot about mortgages and become super educated, you become confusing and not relatable and you become less effective. So yeah, I thi I, I did find success very early 'cause it was that coupled with I just wanted to work and I wanted to do well and I wanted to win.

And, um, that's kind of how I was. I I fueled the first year of my few years of my career. It's through grit and hustle.

Dino - Austin Raw: You know, it's interest. It's interesting you made a comment about how I used to, used to get to ask people these questions of like, how much money do you make? How much debt do you have? Right. What's your social, all that. So funny. One time we were at a dinner and um, the couple we were with asked me some loan questions and I immediately fired back with some very personal questions like that.

My wife looked at me, she's [00:08:00] like, don't ask him these questions. Like, that's so rude. I'm like, honey, that's what I do every day, every single day. That's what I do. And, and the reason why I'm telling this story is because, you know, now that I'm not originating and I'm trying to grow the company, I'm having to deal with.

All sorts of originators. Um, in theory, some of them are experienced and seasoned, hadn't been around for a while. And I'm just like, didn't you know that? Like, how did you not know that? And what I found is how scared originators are to ask difficult questions. And, and I think, you know, if, if we wanna relate anything that we're saying, right?

All of this is to figure out how to teach originators how to be better at their job, but also not just to make more money, not to just be more successful at it, but to be happier, to have a better work life balance, right? To have a more successful marriage and be a better father or, or wife, um, or, or, you know, mother and all that stuff.

So I found through my experience that asking these [00:09:00] hard questions upfront really takes care of a lot of the problems afterwards, right? You don't fall into these, these holes because you already knew about it. You already had the solution. And, and I'm, I'm worried about. Technology a little bit. I love technology by the way.

Um, but I'm a little worried about it. 'cause what I'm finding is an originator will, will lean on, here's a link, fill out the app, and, and they don't bother having like, an initial consultation anymore. I had an initial consultation with everybody, period. No matter what, I knew everything that needed to happen after that consultation, but whenever there was a link, I don't, how am I gonna know?

You can't get that off of a loan application sometimes. So obviously, and I want to get more into this later, but I'm, I'm skipping ahead a little bit, but obviously Rocket is huge into technology, right? And, and I want the whole last half of the [00:10:00] show to be all about that. But I'm gonna skip just a little bit and ask do you guys work through things like that?

Because ultimately, right, I mean there is a lot of technology built in, but you lose track of. The personal, um, relationship that can get built through the personal interaction. You lose track of the difficult things that never got asked and then pop up later. Right? Like, do you guys think through that stuff at all?

Or is that not really an issue for you guys?

Austin Raw: Oh yeah, in a big way. One of the things we say a lot, it's a little corny and cliche these days, but it's so true, is like. Technology is so beautiful when you let it do what technology does so that it allows humans to do what humans do best, right? Let let tech and AI do what tech and AI do do best so that humans can shine at being human.

And that we lean hard into that at Rocket. You know, I think that, um, we are in a commodity business. I mean, yes, people can do things with [00:11:00] rates, but at the end of the day, we're all within an eighth or a quarter of each other. The payments based off the loan amounts your payments. It's like what are you gonna do to differentiate yourself?

And we, I think, focus on rates more than the consumer does. Like loan officers almost psych themselves out that rates are more important than the consumer does. And so you've gotta convince yourself it's not 'cause it is not. Um, so back to your question, like I know people look at Rocket as a technology company, and we are, and I think we're the best in the industry when it comes to mortgage technology.

Our humans are still the biggest part of what we do. You know, the ai, if you were to study what Los at Rocket do, the AI is doing a lot of the work for them. But every loan is still originated for the most part because of a loan officer. And the more and more we implement ai, the more and more the los are just talking about everything but the mortgage, um, [00:12:00] which is important.

You know, I guess to go backwards a moment, you know, the advice I always got 'cause I I ran a huge region of loan officers and, and los and teams and things of that nature. And I think the most important thing, if you wanna be a pro and you want to do this for your career and you wanna be really good at it, I think the most important thing is staying fresh.

You have to stay fresh, you have to keep your brain fresh, you have to have fun, or else you're gonna burn. I've watched so many Los burnout do well, burnout, and the best way to stay fresh is having convo. That aren't related to the mortgage. It's like when you're talking to a client, it's like, why are they broke?

What do they need money for? Do they have a family? Are they gonna have a bigger family? Do they like their job? Why don't they like, why do they like their job? Why don't they like their job? When do they run wanna retire? And why? What do they love about their home? How long are they gonna be in their home?

Guess what, that's fun to talk about. That like keeps you fresh. And what else it does, Dino [00:13:00] is then when you're presenting a sh the loan, you tie it back to those things that matter to them, not the a PR, not the cost, not the rate. People will choose you because you've custom tailored a loan that fits them as a human.

The only way to do that is to know who they are as a human. So I would always say as a lo I would say the same thing to every client. I'm gonna ask you some questions that seem weird. In fact, they seem like they, they, they don't matter to your mortgage. They're not related to your mortgage, but I promise you they do.

The more I know about you. Your personal situation and your life, the better loan I can custom tailor for you. And by the way, it's true. And so I would just, if LO's listening to this, I just encourage one, it will help your conversion and help you become a better sales professional. But two, it'll also keep you fresh selfishly and allow you, those are fun combos to have.

So

Dino - Austin Raw: Yeah. You know it's funny, I already took a bunch of notes 'cause I love a lot of the stuff you said. [00:14:00] Um. I absolutely love the phrase or the, the statement, we focus on rates more than the consumer does.

Austin Raw: we do.

Dino - Austin Raw: It's, it's so crazy. So I had a, uh, one of my loan officers, he's, he is younger, but he called me yesterday and he's got a VA loan he is trying to put together.

And, uh, you know, he was trying to, he was just negotiating with himself almost, right? And he said, no, he just won't go for that. Um, you know, he, he just wants the lowest rate possible. And, and I'm like, okay, that means he's gotta pay points though, right? Or I go, but, but look, dude, if you give him a little bit of a higher rate right now, we obviously just took a, a knee jerk reaction to this war and, and bam rates skyrocketed.

I, I do believe they're gonna come back down. So let's just do the math. Let me teach you how to do math. This is the rate with a point. This is a rate with no points. This is a rate with rebate. Now it's simple math. How, what [00:15:00] is the, the payoff period, right? What is the break even point? And I'm like, in this case it's 2.7 years.

Does Logic tell you if, logic says to me, if you believe rates will drop in less than 2.7 years, don't spend all that money. If he's afraid he can't afford that, then take that $8,000. He was about to, to pay in points, stick it in a bank account, and every month pull the $250. You can afford it. Right? And, and then he kept saying that, you know, he, he wants that five and a quarter because that's what I quoted him the first time, you know, and that was a month ago.

I'm like, but do you realize that doesn't exist right now? It just doesn't exist. I go, he can't get it anywhere else. Don't, don't think that you're, you're gonna lose him because you can't give him that rate anymore. But he was negotiating with himself trying to do that. He was focused on the rates. And that's why you're, you, your phrase.

It's so important. And the second a, a loan officer takes everything [00:16:00] to the rate, I think they've, they've already, they've become a commodity at that point, right? They have not become an advisor. They have not gotten to know what's important to their client and how to structure the best deal for their client.

Um, I, I gotta say something else too, that it, I both like it and don't like it, but a lot of times when I, when I recruit, um, I'll say stuff like, no, listen, I, I think technology's great. I think we, you know, I'm leaning into it heavy. I'm trying to find all the right stuff. I'm trying to build stuff. I go, but here's the deal.

Places like Rocket, you know, and, and Loan Depot and some of these big boys, I said, they just got too much money. They're gonna develop something way better than any of us are. I go, so let them. Just, just let them, I go, let them do what they do so well. But they don't know how to talk to people. They don't care about people.

And, and I go, but we do, we love people, we love our clients. And then I was listening to, um, how do you say the [00:17:00] CEO's name? Is it

Austin Raw: Varun Krishna. Yeah.

Dino - Austin Raw: Varun. I was listening to Varun. I was like, gosh dang. He just said the exact same thing I did. He, he's trying to make Rocket love people. And, and I'm like, I never thought of Rocket that way.

I just thought they were just this big company. You call in, you get your rate and it's done right. But over since that moment, I've been studying Rocket a lot from a leadership perspective because I'm trying to grow my company and, you know, I've always been a big producer, but now I'm trying to be a good CEO and I'm like, okay, I, I gotta study good CEOs.

And I gotta admit, I, I really fell in love with. The leadership at Rocket. And, and once I saw how you guys are structuring things, I was just like, these guys are different. These guys are doing such a great job at leadership and at, at growing this company. And I've always, as an originator, uh, my big thing was through the theory of reciprocity, [00:18:00] right?

I'm gonna do well. So what, what was my goal as an originator? My goal was to make other people money. My insurance guy, my trust guy, my financial planner, you know, uh, my attorney, all of these people, I was just trying to get them deals. And through reciprocity, I knew we would come back. And I kind of feel like that's what you guys do.

You guys are trying to help us be successful at what we do. And just through the reciprocity theory, we're giving it right back. And I, I think, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, but it feels like that's your guys' approach. You're spending all this money trying to make our lives easier and make us be more successful.

Austin Raw: Yeah, spot on. I want to comment on what you said about, you know, the leadership and, and then I want to answer your question. You know, I, yeah. About nine years ago, I came over to the wholesale side from the retail side, and I didn't know a whole lot about wholesale, and so the way I learned it [00:19:00] was I got in the trenches.

We flew brokers into Detroit and we sat and we listened to them. What do you want? What do you need? What do you love about us? What do you hate about us? How do we, how do we create the best partnership in America? And so many people said exactly what you said, like, after they, they'd fly into our campus, they'd meet our team, we'd sit and they're like, you know, for so long I thought Rocket was just like this call center headset, jockeys, that all they cared about was X, Y, and Z.

And like, studying your culture and looking at Detroit and what you guys have done to the city and getting to know you, like my perspective has changed. And it would kind of offend me, like, why did you think that? But I do kind of get it, you know, because our, we brought in a new CMO, his name is Jonathan Mildenhall.

He's one of the most talented business people I have ever met. An unbeliev, I mean, you wanna talk about someone that's wildly creative but can just execute lights out. I mean, this guy was the CMO of Airbnb. He was a, the, um, one of the top marketers for [00:20:00] Coca-Cola. I've just learned so much for him. But after like six months, he sat down with a, a few of us and he is like, this is gonna be so easy.

He goes All what We are internally, our culture at Rocket, who we are, what we're doing for the city of Detroit, how we care about the client, our isms, our culture. We just literally need to tell our story externally. And we've done the opposite. We've used comedy, we've used gimmicks, we've used comedian comedians and celebrities to try to tell who we are.

That's like fake, just tell. So, you know, now you look at how we come to the world, um, with, you know, if you look rewind two years ago at the Super Bowl with like own the dream and we just told the beauty of home ownership and the beauty of what it is to be a, to, to, to the beauty of what we do as originators.

It's real, it's emotional. It's, it's, um, it's not funny. It can be funny, but [00:21:00] it's, it's a big deal. And I, I just give kudos to Jonathan for taking who we are at Rocket and what we do as originators and putting it up on these big, uh, screens. You're part of that too, Dino. You're on some billboards and some of our commercials now, but it's awesome because it's, it's, it's a beau Home ownership's a beautiful thing.

Um, now you mentioned, look, we have really big ambition at Rocket and our mission is to help everyone home, and everyone is a big word. It's everyone. And, um, you know, our strategy is to create the first ever tip to tail, uh, home ownership platform from start to finish. Not mortgage platform, but home ownership platform.

And to do this right, we need brokers. And I believe brokers need us. They don't just need us. I'm not trying to say brokers need us or they're not. But I believe with what we're bringing together, [00:22:00] you know, we used to say we're stronger together. I believe that it's like, well we, when we can use our strengths and give it to brokers, and brokers do what they do best with their strengths, we can just create something beautiful.

And I think what we have now to offer brokers is better than anything we've ever had to offer because this world is changing so fast. And I mean, I could go on and on and on and talk about what we built at Rocket and how we're bringing brokers into the fold, but it's special. Um, we're re-imagining what it is to be a wholesale lender period.

I think over the last 10 years, it's, you know, wholesale, it's, it's grown a lot and it's very competitive, which is beautiful for brokers. And I think these portals have gotten better that wholesale lenders have provided brokers. I think pricing's gotten competitive, turn times have gotten sharp. But that's kind of the game, right?

It's like who has a good portal and good pricing, and who can close loans on time? It's time to reinvent what a wholesale partner does for brokers. And we're starting to do that, and that's a big reason why I decided to come back, [00:23:00] um, and lead the Rocket Pro channel. And, um, I could talk your, talk your ear off if you want, about the vision we have, but, uh, I agree with what the, the question.

Dino - Austin Raw: So I'm gonna, I'm gonna try and draw some of that out of you. Um, so you can talk my ear off on it, but, but I wanna do it in little stages, little bits. Um, all right. As, as the guy that's out there trying to grow, ethos lending, uh, you know, I talked to several different people. Obviously the UWM versus rocketing pops up.

Um, you know, I'm always proud to say, well, we're, we're on the rocket side and you wanna know all my reasons. I'll, I'll be more than glad to tell you. And, and I'll, I'll say it right now. Uh, so then we can segue into some of this stuff. I believe a broker is better because they have the option of truly being a good fiduciary for their client.

They can go wherever they want. [00:24:00] Now, I will also say that a good mortgage loan originator doesn't always choose the lowest price, because that's not always what's best for the client. If you're late on a purchase and cause everybody a ton of stress over eighth of a point, that's not what's best for the client.

If you end up costing everybody a bunch of money because they had to cancel moving trucks and various things, right? That's not what's best for the client. You're also not going to grow your business. You're also not gonna get any referrals. And guess what? Everybody's gonna hate you. Right? Because you, you chose to go for the cheapest brand around.

Now, with, with all that said, um, you know, I choose Rocket because I don't want to be told that I can't use somebody. 'cause what if I will, I go with UWM and then rocket's better. Now you're saying I can't go to them. Like, how fair is that when you're, you're preaching, you know, [00:25:00] you gotta do what's best for your client.

That's why brokers are better. It just completely defies the, the concept of being a broker. So, so that's why I choose Rocket, right? But it goes deeper than that. At the end of the day, consistency is very important to. People ask me, well, how do you do so much volume? Right? And, and, okay, I don't originate anymore, but it wasn't too long ago and I did 156 million.

And, and how do I do it? Well, I, I'll tell you, I, I think altogether that year I used seven banks and five of the, four of the banks, I gave less than like 2% of my volume to all of the rest went to the same places. Right? And, and the reason why is because consistency. It was extremely important to me. I didn't want to go ask a bunch of questions to see if I could do something.

I needed to, I needed to have predictability and consistency. Those are the two main [00:26:00] things. Rate always had to be good, didn't have to be the best, just had to be good every time. And as long as I could get predictability and consistency, I knew exactly what I could represent myself as doing out in the public every single time.

I need to close the loan for 15 days. I can guarantee it. In fact, I can give, I always used to put on my, on my contracts $250 a day penalty per diem paid by me to the seller directly. If I don't close on time, wouldn't do that. If I was going to some random, random place, right? With Rocket, I, I always know I could do that.

So with that said, I, I do believe that a lot of originators out there need to get educated on how to choose the right partner and, and rate is the wrong way to choose the right partner. Now, what I love about you guys is that you guys have never like spiked up or spiked down in in any which way. You've just been [00:27:00] really consistent always in that top margin, right?

That top space and other companies, you see them just fluctuate up and down like crazy. I don't know what causes that, but. Do you guys have a model in place that says, oh, we're not gonna react to anything. This is just how we're always gonna be.

Austin Raw: Yeah. One of the biggest advantages we bring to the broker community is the fact that we have the largest retail mortgage company in America. And you know, our competition will try to actually spin it the other way. Like, why would you work with a wholesale lender that has retail? And you know, instill fear and try to create drama.

But in reality, because we have the largest retail mortgage company in America, we have incredible balance. We have incredible balance sheet, we have infrastructure, and we don't have, we we're not a monologue. I think it's dangerous to be a company that has just one channel. You're not diverse. And so the fact that we have [00:28:00] retail, we're also the largest servicer in America.

We have Redfin, we're so, I mean, we're blessed. We are an all-weather company. And when you're an all-weather company like that, you don't have to play gimmicks and games, and you also don't have to whipsaw around margin and price. You can stay very, very, very steady, even if it means taking one on the chin for a month or a quarter.

To ensure that we're providing our partners with consistency so they can win and we can be reliable. And that same thing with infrastructure. Like we have an incredible massive ops team, and we're building all sorts of AI and automation because we have retail that we can deliver to our partners on the wholesale channel.

And then there's all sorts of, I mean, I can go on and on. Like our MI is the best in America. Why? Because of retail. And we give you the, the MI rates, um, our high balance pricing. Incredible. Why? It's bulk, because of retail. And so the, the biggest people always ask like, why [00:29:00] Rocket? Because we have, we're, we're the most balanced, um, well capitalized all weather partner you have.

And, uh, to answer your question about, you know, our competitor, they actually try to tell you the opposite. And I couldn't disagree more. Like if I'm a business owner that's building and I'm trying to figure out, unfortunately there's this ultimatum where. First of all, the fact that you guys have to decide to work with us or them is silly and it's unfortunate, um, but it is what it is.

But if you have to decide, which you have to decide, I, I, I'm, I know I'm biased, but I would wanna be on the train with somebody that's gonna be able to survive and, uh, thrive in any market. And if you see what we've done, everyone's following us, including the people that are talking shit about us, they're trying to buy servicers.

Well, we're the first one to do it, and we've done it in the biggest way, and others are struggling in a really big way to do it. Um, we're creating top of the funnel for our [00:30:00] brokers, um, through Reddit, fin and other things. You know, others are now scrambling and trying, and other certs engines are trying to do what we're doing now.

And so we're just, it feels really good to be the leader, Dino. And I don't mean, I don't say it to be cocky, but like, you know, when you look at the moves we've made over the last three years. We are leading the industry in innovation and taking this industry forward into where the world's headed. And it's gives me confidence for our brokers because I, I think brokers will, wa would wanna be, you know, on the same side as the leader, um, and someone that's gonna be able to get through these tough markets like we're today.

We don't have to play the gimmicks with the rates. We don't have to take things up because we're over capacity and we're just very well structured and it's, um, it's a competitive advantage for our partners.

Dino - Austin Raw: So the, the other piece that, that comes up a lot and, and I already have my answer, but I'm gonna, I'll let you answer it. Um, but they do have a large retail department, and when it's time to [00:31:00] refinance, they will take your client. What do you say to that?

Austin Raw: it's simple as that. Look. Um. We spend so much time, energy, effort, infrastructure, building this Rocket Pro channel. We also know the second Dino. If we were to, if you were to give us a loan and then we were to close the loan and then have our retail solicit that loan, you would fire us. Take the emotion out of it.

Or what's the right thing to do? Why would we sacrifice your entire partnership, which could be hundreds and thousands of loans over time for one client? It's a horrible business decision. So we do everything in our power. And you know this, I'll, I'll ask you a question a minute where not only are we not soliciting your close clients, we are doing everything we can to get that loan back to you.

Um, and let me ask you a question. Do we, so you've, you've sent us many, many, many, many [00:32:00] loans over the years. Do we solicit your clients?

Dino - Austin Raw: You've gone outta your way to make sure those clients come back to me. And, and here's, um, for all you guys right now that, that are wondering, you know, this is super important. One thing that I will say, um, this time around more than ever, even though it was aggressive before, I would say servicers are coming hard, right?

I mean, one of my guys just lost a deal and the servicer undercut 'em by half point with no fees. It's like, we couldn't even do that for free. It was ridiculous. Right? And, and my response back is. This is why you need to choose Rocket because at the end of the day, it's a high likelihood that you guys are gonna keep the loan.

If you send it to, let's say, mega, which is another bank that a lot of my guys like to use, it's a extremely high likelihood, probably a hundred [00:33:00] percent, that by the time that six month CPO is up there, it's already gone. It's somewhere else. So the second you refinance, I said, listen, here's old school. If you want a little bit of old school like tactics.

If, if your servicer is not rocket, don't order a payoff instructor, escrow officer to not order a, pay off your title, not to order a payoff. Until you're pretty much done because they will steal it. Now, if you make this decision upfront, a better decision to go to Rocket than when that time comes. Even if your client goes around you and goes direct, you guys bring it right back to us and then you don't go hunt.

I mean, that's been my experience with it. It's happened enough times. It's hap it's even happened when you guys shouldn't have done it. And I got a story for that, but you guys shouldn't have done it. You guys should have kept it. 'cause you guys had it 30 days before one of my loan officers did. And then he, he didn't even have, he was competing against you guys and, and then he [00:34:00] found out it was Rocket.

He called me all pissed off. So then I got pissed off and then I, you know, I called my rep, we started, he dug into it and he's like, Hey, our retail guy had this 30 days before you guys even like had it. You guys still don't even have it submitted to us and, and your loan officer's pissed off. But hey.

We're going to, we're gonna move that outer retail over to you guys. All you gotta do is match the price that they had given him because they were fighting for the loan. So they kept re and I was like, man, they should have kept that one. They should have fought for it. They had, they had no obligation to give that to us.

My loan officer should have been ashamed. Right? Like, you can't blame anybody for that. You guys should have been fighting for, you should have, you should have beat rocket. I said, fair and square. So after that one moment, 'cause that was kind of the, the, the clincher for me where you guys shouldn't have given me that one.

And you did. I was done. I was like, this is it. I I have so much faith and confidence that you guys are always gonna do the right thing. That [00:35:00] I'm a, I'm all in. You like that? All in, I'm all in on, on a rocket.

Austin Raw: Yeah, look, I think brokers are so smart. That's what I love about this business. I mean, successful brokers are like. It's small business at its best, it's grid, it's hustle, it's grind, it's, you guys are street. You understand the business. I think people understand what this ultimatums all about. I mean, when you look at the timing, we were scaling and growing and growing and growing and we actually did more volume than UWM did the, I think, two or three months before they did the ultimatum.

And so when you look at the reason why, you know, the, the leaders over there said, we're doing this. It was to protect brokers. No, we were gaining market share because brokers really liked our process, our price. And again, history is glittered with people that try to pin two groups against each other for their own self-interest.

And that's exactly what's going on here. And it's unfortunate because I think the broker's biggest, um, [00:36:00] for sure is the fact that they have good lenders fighting for their business. And when people try to take that away and remove choice, that's like literally the broker's superpower. So, you know, we believe in choice.

We believe in earning your business the right way. Unfortunately, there is this choice that you have to make, and we're just gonna keep working our asses off relentlessly to build the best place for brokers to build their business. And, um, we'll keep rolling and, um, we're excited about what we have ahead of us.

Dino - Austin Raw: let's, let's, let's shift now over to this technology side. 'cause I, I'm a, I'm a technology junkie. Um, I, I am so all in on learning. Um, I, I've been, you know, so I finally moved it to 5:00 AM but I started waking up at 4:00 AM specifically to be uninterrupted. And I wanted three hours every single morning.

I did this for I think four months of, of just [00:37:00] playing with ai, finding out. What it's capable of doing. And, and I was just, my mind was blown of how little I was using it, how at, you know, kindergarten level and then, but how quickly I got to where I needed to be. And, um, and with that said, now I'm kind of sitting back and watching what the big boys are doing, um, because you guys, you know, you guys are obviously going at it pretty hot and heavy, and I wanna learn a little bit about what some of the future holds in AI for Rocket, but also for us, for our, our group.

Austin Raw: That's a very deep question my friend. Um, where do we begin? When I, when I look, I'll, I'll speak to, you know, some of the things that have worked really well on the retail side, and then I think that's helpful 'cause there's a lot of originators on here wondering, and then we can maybe talk about, you know, what we've launched and what we're launching on the wholesale side.

But what's cool again about being a diverse company [00:38:00] is we're, we're testing and launching and learning on the retail side and it's like, okay, what works, what's effective, what doesn't? And then we can help deliver the products that work to our brokers, which is again, another reason why I think, you know, us having a retail, um. Side of the business is, is important for brokers, but, um, look, there's obvious ones, Dino. Um, the AI voice out there right now is unbelievable. I mean, unbelievable. I had a conversation yesterday with an, uh, an AI agent I thought was a human for like two minutes. I was embarrassed. I'm embarrassed to admit it.

Um, but that's really taking off and it's like, you know, some of the lower intent leads. Um, that historically we spent a lot of time having humans call and leave voicemails and dial and, and maybe even have the first few minute conversation. We have AI voice doing that now, and it's the, the conversion is fantastic.

That's number one. Number two is AI texting. And so when we have loan officers working a [00:39:00] pipeline of a couple hundred clients to be able to have triggers where AI is texting with relevant, beautiful, grammatically accurate, uh, texts. And then the humans are picking it up when the client responds or wants to converse.

The scale it's giving us is just incredible. And then chat is probably the most fascinating, um, of just AI agentic chat. Being able to take somebody from hello all the way to like verified to prove heck all the way into process, um, is exciting, but very rare. I will go back to what we talked about earlier, is AI taking a client tip to tail?

I mean, very, very rare it's, but can we use AI to help do a lot of the monotonous prospecting, data collecting? And then when it comes to comradery and rapport and structuring the deal, that's where the humans come in. And so it's like, as opposed [00:40:00] to having to talk to 10 clients to find two that qualify to present a loan option to.

Now our los are talking to 10 clients, all 10 of 'em are qualified and you're presenting loan options to, and so I challenge brokers. I mean, there's all sorts of, you're all different. You all run different businesses. You all have different lead flow. And so whether it's chat or voice AI or AI text or something completely different, you gotta know what's out there.

And you gotta find the areas of your business where you're consumed with data monotony and how do you have AI replace that so that you can do what you do best. So, um, just so I'd say over the last six months for us at Rocket, this stuff has started like boomy. It's from concept and test to just all the way across rocket.

And you're seeing conversion, um, really start to fly. [00:41:00] So then any questions on

Dino - Austin Raw: real, real quick. Let, let's, let's pause. Yeah, let's pause there for a sec. So the, um, the AI texting, um, and voice and all that sounds super cool. Um, recently I've been hearing a lot about compliance issues with all that, and, uh, you know, obviously, I'm guessing you guys have a pretty, uh, robust legal department, but where, where are we with that?

Because I just had a loan officer ask me if he can get an email address for his, for Sophie, his AI chat bot. I'm like, I don't think so. I don't think I can get her an email address. Right. And he's like, why not? Yeah. She's not gonna be quoting rates. So I'm like, I don't know, man. I go, let me, let me look into it.

I just, it feels like it's a little deceptive. Feels like something, so where are we? Where are we gonna end up with that? Because ultimately you're supposed to be licensed if you're gonna be asking questions and doing things right.

Austin Raw: Yeah. I

Dino - Austin Raw: [00:42:00] Or is it just quoting rates?

Austin Raw: We are, uh, we have a magnificent legal team, a big one, and a talented one. Um, 'cause we're the largest and of, and, and, um, there's a lot at risk. And so yeah, any AI we deploy is heavily researched, uh, disclosed. Um, and we're not, you know, at this point in time presenting rates and costs.

But it's back to, I mean, as you think about, as an lo the things that require no talent whatsoever, but consume the majority of your time, that's not a smart way to run your business. And that's where we're plugging ai. And so it's not about negotiating rates or costs, it is the hundred dials are used to making lead ai do that.

The outreach via text messaging. Let AI do that. The maybe initial conversation just to, to get a feel for whether where someone's at in the purchase process. If you're a lead by type business, let AI do that. But AI's not doing, you know, the licensed activity or the things that. [00:43:00] In my opinion, take the talent.

Um, and that's why humans are gonna be involved in mortgages for a very, very long time. But we can remove a lot of that monotony.

Dino - Austin Raw: And, and where are you guys at? Or, or even you personally, where are you at? On client makes the mistake of filling out a form and over a hundred people call or text immediately. It, it, it almost seems overwhelming and it pisses off a lot of people. Um, I don't know, like even how to answer that question myself other than, yeah, it's annoying, but

Austin Raw: Well,

Dino - Austin Raw: where do we go with all this?

Austin Raw: the credit triggers were, it became embarrassing for our industry, in my opinion. I mean, to be a client that has your credit polled and to get, I mean, you've seen it, 58 text messages in the first two hours. And [00:44:00] 72 voicemails. It was honestly embarrassing for our industry, and we were heavy advocates up on the hill.

We have a great government affairs team, and we worked in partnership with the, with a few others to, uh, pass the trigger bill. And now, you know, as of this month, um, they're banned. And so that's a big move. Dino, I'm, we're very, very proud of, of being part of that and helping, but that's not the only way. I mean, there's data leads and things like that and there's brokers and los and mortgage companies are doing it the right way, compliantly, and as you know, there's folks who aren't doing it the right way.

Um, and I think triggers is very helpful. That eliminates a lot of what you're talking about. But there's still other avenues that, that are creating some of that.

Dino - Austin Raw: I mean, I, you know, I've, I've, I've never done leads, I've only ever been a self gen referral based guy. But as I'm trying to grow the company, um, you know, I, I [00:45:00] started dabbling in lead, right? And I, and I hired my first lead guy, and quite honestly, he's questioning, he is doing really well. Um, and now we're trying to expand that market a little bit.

But it does come with significant headaches that I've never had to deal with in my life. Um, I, I'm also starting to see the game a little bit, um, and I, you know, interviewing other guys, and I'm talking to, to guys, and I'm realizing some of these loan officers have three different CRMs and they're coming at the client themselves three different times.

Right. Or if the client says, do not call. Boom, no problem. Move you over to this CRM and then they, they go at it from there. So it, it's, it's insane the, uh, uh, you know, I guess the game behind leads. So with that said, in today's world, right, obviously Rocket is big on, you know, buying [00:46:00] Redfin and, um, get aggregating their own leads and, and going after that. But in the broker community, do you think there's going to be a separation, um, of classes almost, where you're either going to be a lot more, you're gonna have to be more referral based, or potentially you're gonna start losing to more of the big boys in the lead game? Because, you know, like I talked to one guy and he is like, man, the big boys will spend a half a million dollars just trying to figure out how to get to the lead a second faster than everybody else.

I don't know. Where do you think that's going?

Austin Raw: It's a good question. There's more and more call center type brokers that have popped up over the last 10 years, um, you know, via the way of technology and, and scale. And so, you know, from my lens, it's not just the big boys getting [00:47:00] bigger. I think there's a lot more competition in a kind of call center type style of, of purchasing leads.

So it is very, very, very competitive. I mean, if you look at the history, I mean, brokers were 50% of the market banks were in the game. Financial crisis hit brokers, shrunk very small. A lot of these mega lenders went away. And, you know, it was, it kind of cleaned out the industry. And now over the last 10 years, you know, there's more and more people in the game.

And so I don't think it's just about, you know, the rockets and the loan depots of the world and the lead game. There's a lot of competition there. Um, and so, you know, I, if you look at. Okay, let's talk about purchase for a minute to answer your question. 'cause I think these are two completely different businesses. The games changed dramatically over the last 10 years in purchase. You know, you think about the lifecycle of a purchase client, [00:48:00] typically they used to start with an agent because the agent could get 'em access to homes that they could look at and then eventually go visit and then agent to lo and, and down the road.

Well now with Redfin and Zillow's, you know, humans are starting their journey themself online via these search portals. And they're the one, they're kind of acting as an agent in many of these times. And then when it's time to actually where they're, where they're much closer to, you know, making an offer, visiting a home is when they engage with the agent and or lo, I mean, we have all sorts of data on it, hence why we bought Redfin.

And so being able to be in the home search game. Top of funnel is very, very important for everybody included. Um, and then clearly having great relationships with real estate agents has and always will be, um, a massive deal. And, um, obviously you guys are the best in the business at that, in the broker [00:49:00] community, and we're trying to help there.

I mean, we have a partnership with Compass now that's really big and we're, you know, very, very, our, our brokers are front and center in that partnership. There's almost 300,000 Compass agents. We have 30,000 plus brokers out there. We have a beautiful network of professionals on both sides and, you know, we have our Compass credits.

So, um, I don't know where I'm going with this, Dino, other than like the purchase lead game has changed a lot and it, a lot of it's now starting at search versus starting at the agent. And how do you get into search? We're there. You can also, you know, obviously having relationships with agents gets you guys there as well.

And there's some interesting things we're doing with Redfin, with brokers that we're, uh, we're very, very excited about as well.

Dino - Austin Raw: So, so let's ask, I'm gonna ask you a question that, uh, that I get asked a lot. Yeah. But you know, obviously with their purchase of, of Redfin, uh, you know, they're trying to just keep everything to themselves, right? [00:50:00] They're just trying to keep everything in their retail department. They're not gonna give any of those to you guys.

What do you say to that?

Austin Raw: Yeah, it's a good question. So we, we bought Redfin, there's a few elements to Redfin. There's the search portal. Okay. There's the brokerage. So there's a real estate brokerage and they also had a mortgage company. Okay? So think of it three ways. So there's the search portal, which generates lead flow.

There's the real estate brokerage, and then there's the mortgage company. Mortgage company was small. They joined our company. Real estate brokerage is small, and the portal search engine's awesome. It's the second largest in, in the country. Um, but we have big, big, big plans to make it the largest and most effective search portal in America.

And with, um, our, our partnership with Compass and the introduction of putting, coming soon listings and exclusive listings, you know, we believe it's the [00:51:00] best search portal now in, in the world and provides more access to home ownership than, than any other search portal. So we have big ambition, Dino, to answer your question, to double, triple, quadruple, 10 x, 20 x, 50 x the amount of traffic and lead flow.

We will not be able to handle that on our own with our, you know, mortgage, just our mortgage banker. So there's gonna be a lot of opportunity there, and we're already launching and learning and testing some of that out. The second piece is with this Compass Partnership. Compass is the largest real estate company in America.

There's. Close to 300,000 agents. Um, we've launched the Compass Credit and we're connecting these Compass agents with our Rocket Pro brokers. And that is a massive strategy of ours, um, that we're leaning into very, very hard and there's a lot more to come. And we launched the, the 40 Basis Point Compass credit exclusive to our brokers.

Um, and there's a lot more things we'll be doing to connect our partners and our [00:52:00] Compass agents, uh, together in this partnership. So, um, there's a lot we're doing to answer your question and there's a heck of a lot more to come. And we need brokers with, with Redfin top of the funnel and how it's growing and almost 300,000 agents in this partnership.

We need brokers to be able to do this, and it's a great value proposition for them as well.

Dino - Austin Raw: I ask a tough question. Be careful how you answer it.

Austin Raw: Thanks for the warning.

Dino - Austin Raw: can do pur, who can, who can do purchase deals better? Rocket retail or me?

Austin Raw: Oh man. Well, I love our retail channel and I love our wholesale channel, and I've explained why they both matter in a lot. It just depends, Daniel. It really does. We're very bullish on Rocket Pro. Um, and we know that purchase is won locally in many, many cases. The majority of the time it's very, very local.

It's local brokers working with local real estate agents that [00:53:00] know the locality really well. Um, and that's why we invest so much into Rocket Pro. And so you guys do it, um, in a very, very elite way.

Dino - Austin Raw: Just, just for the show. Can you just say it real quick? You can know.

Austin Raw: We love you, Dino. You can do it. You can do it better than anyone.

Dino - Austin Raw: Thank you. All right. Um, okay, so here's, here's where I'm going with that question. Um. Uh, better, um, released Tinman and before it was theirs. Right. And, and my friends over at Neo Home Loans, um, very relationship centric, um, you know, super high level guys over there. I, I friends with a lot of them really respect how they do loans.

And, and I was just kind of taken back when they went to better because, you know, I, I was like, man, those are two totally different DNAs. And, you know, and then so [00:54:00] he walked me through the, the partnership. He walked me through what it's gonna look like and, and all this other stuff, and then started bragging about this technology and how amazing it is, right?

And, and how much cheaper they can do the loan. Um, and I was like, you know, during the last refi boom, I remember there were times where people were coming to me and saying, well, you know, better is offering this deal. And I was like, eh, that. Come, come back to me when they can't do it. And you know, and I'm like, but respectfully, right?

Like, I, if you can get it, I want you to get it. And they came back and they said, yeah. And it was actually pretty easy. Um, they didn't veer at all. They didn't change the rate, they didn't change the price. And I'm like, how did they do that? How did they even do it for that price? Come to find out later, they didn't even charge title insurance.

Right. And, and they were using so much technology even back then that they were able to lower the price. So, so now they release Tinman kind of out to the public, which takes [00:55:00] away their edge from their retail department. Um, so I was kind of shocked that they did that. But I think the market's probably bigger to, to release it.

Right. And, and have that strategy. Does Rocket have something that is comparable to Tinman or. Better or will have something better. Is Tinman even the best thing out there right now for, for what they claim they can do?

Austin Raw: Yeah, I mean, you know, our process and we're just getting started. I mean, when you. Really, it's all about automation. And so when you look at, um, a lot of what we do behind the scenes is automated Now when it comes to income automation, asset automation, and we're working on ai, that kind of ties it all together and speeds up what a human being does on whether it's underwriting, processing, funding.

But there's also things that, that we don't control, Tinman doesn't control. Um, 'cause there's so many vendors involved in the process. And [00:56:00] that's something we're focused on, whether it be es, whether it be homeowners insurance, whether it be title. And so, you know, you, we gotta control what we can control internally, but we also have to be working with these others to, to speed up the process.

And so, I don't know, um, I can't speak to, to better and better's process and what they're building, but I, I, I would put our process up against anybody as far as speed and ease of use, both for brokers and for for the consumer. And we're heavily investing AI to automate a lot of it as well. So we'll continue to see.

Dino - Austin Raw: Yeah, I know you guys, we just released, um, a new LOSI dunno if it's live yet or not, but, um, I did just a, a quick YouTube demo on it or whatever it was that went out. Um, I struggle. I, so it looked pretty cool. I, I won't deny, um, but I also struggle with the fact that. It's not mine. And if I don't go to Rocket, even though the [00:57:00] majority of our deals go to Rocket, if I don't go there, then I have to move it, drop it in somewhere else.

Now I'm functioning out of two systems. It just seems like a problem to me. Right? Like why would a broker choose to do that if they can't function outta there or, or can they move it and then bring back the completed file and still run a mortgage call report and still function out of it down the road?

Austin Raw: Yeah, the vision for Jupyter is it's a fully functioning LOS that you can run your entire business off of. Now, you know, we have fully API into it, and so when you, when you use Rocket through Jupyter, you never have to leave the platform. But we believe in choice and we believe in optionality, and we think it'd be crazy if you didn't partner with other lenders and, and have other options.

And so yeah, you can export three, four and use any other lender. Using Jupyter. And so we're very bullish on it being a tip to tail full [00:58:00] solution that a broker could run their entire business off of. But we also know it's not for everybody too. And so when you look at our roadmap and what we're building, we have a philosophy of we wanna be where brokers are at.

We don't wanna create a closed loop system that forces you to use us and us alone. And so if Jupyter is a solution, you look at it, you demo it, you love it, it's free. There's a lot of great functionality and we're leaning in heavily to it. It's a beautiful solution. But there's also like Arrive beautiful solution.

We're aggressively API, we have a great relationship with with Arrive and their senior leadership team. And we're working just as hard to API and integrate into Arrive and continue to help build the best, uh, platform for brokers to work with us. If that's the choice, I could keep going down the list.

We're working with other big OSS and even custom OSS brokers are using so. In the spirit of freedom and optionality, knowing that's what your superpower is. We wanna have options and we wanna be where you're at in the most [00:59:00] elite way. And so Jupiter's not a strategy to say, how do we move the whole broker community on something that we have built?

We've just got a lot of people knocking on our door saying, man, these oss are getting expensive. You guys are great at building technology. Could you offer me a solution? And we built one and delivered it. But, um, it's a, it's beautiful and it's gonna be elite, but it's not, it's not for everybody either.

And we don't care.

Dino - Austin Raw: Do you think it's on par yet with Arrive?

Austin Raw: Not yet. Arrives a beautiful platform. I mean, it's, there's a reason. It's, it's the most used platform in the broker community. Um, but it's different. I mean, I don't think it's apples to apples either at this point in time. Um, and this is 1.0 of Jupiter, but I encourage people, check out Jupiter, do a demo.

Sign up. Um, there are folks that love it as is and are, are running their full business off of it.

Dino - Austin Raw: Okay. Um, I'm gonna bring this kind of to the end here. [01:00:00] So a couple of final questions, uh, that I just love asking outta curiosity. Uh, do you have a, a favorite book?

Austin Raw: Oh wow. I love to read and I've actually read more books over the last 12 months than I ever have and it's interesting. So Varun Krishna, um, he's taught me so much our CEO, but he got me into Michael Creighton books and I've never been, um, a fiction guy. Uh, but you know, I've read a ton of Creighton books over the last 12 months, like Sphere and Dragon's Teeth and Pirate's Latitude, and a couple others.

And so now I'm into that mode. I'm ju just finishing up Project Hail Mary and what I like about, um, fiction. Is, it just gets your mind thinking way more creatively like you gotta be. I think being a senior leader and you know you're a business owner, you have to live in the creative, you have to think differently.

You have to think [01:01:00] where the world's headed. And although, you know, some of it's silly, it gets your mind thinking much more creatively. And so I'm doing that. But my all time favorite book to come back is, um, how To Win Friends and Influence People. It's a classic, it's old, but I believe that everything we have in this life, Dino, is based off of great communication or the lack thereof.

And it is the best book, in my opinion, ever written of just the basics of how to be a great communicator and how to be somebody that people want to be around, which is one of the most important things in this industry. So it's how to, you know, don't criticize, don't complain, don't condemn, give honest but sincere appreciation to people. Um, talk to others about their interests, not your interests. These are all things that I think Los, that are good and understand and Los, that struggle with do the opposite. So it's just, it's a beautiful book.

Dino - Austin Raw: Okay. Here's my favorite question, [01:02:00] and this is gonna be tough for you 'cause you got a beautiful wife and you got three little boys. So I'm gonna take you, I'm gonna drop you off somewhere in the United States where you don't really know anybody. You have all the knowledge you have. I give you just, just enough money so that you can live without struggling.

Right? But, but definitely no like extra money to go wheel and deal and buy a bunch of business and do a bunch of stuff. You gotta go like grassroots and you have to make a million bucks before you can come back and visit or come back to your family. Can't see your wife, can't see your kids until you make a million bucks. You have all the knowledge you have and then you go, whatcha gonna do?

Austin Raw: Geez, and we're in the mortgage industry. Well, so I'd stay in the mortgage industry, number one.

Dino - Austin Raw: Yeah.

Austin Raw: I would pick a lane, a very specific lane. I think that brokers that struggle or they take a really [01:03:00] long time to build wealth, think that I'm gonna do everything. I'm gonna be the broker that does it. All right, I'm gonna do purchase.

I'm gonna do refi. I'm gonna specialize in non QM and FHA Earl, or FHA streamlines VA Earls. I'm also gonna buy leads. I'm also gonna build real estate agent relationships. And it's like, what are you doing? I would, I would pick a very specific lane. That'd be the first thing. And I don't know what that would be, but maybe I would just work on building real estate agent relationships and that's it.

I don't wanna see a lead. Or maybe I'd go the opposite and go VA or old data leads. I don't. But I would pick a lane and then I would. Surround myself with the smartest possible people that do that same thing. And I would learn from them, and I would be humble, and I would ask a thousand questions, and I would beg them to give me their time because it's a cheat code.

That's why I think that's one thing that smart business people do. And I've learned, we brought in a lot of talent at Rocket over the last few years with Varun [01:04:00] and Jonathan and Sean, our new CTO and Jamie, like I've learned so much. But the common theme is they just surround themselves with smart people.

Why try to rewrite? Like just surround yourself with smart people, ask questions and learn. Um, so that'd be another thing I would do. Pick a lane. I'd then go surround myself with the smartest people in that lane, and then I would just focus on speed. I think s our, our, our founder Dan Gilbert, he always uses speed of the game.

Speed of the game, speed of the game. That's the name of the game. And so I don't know what that means, but whether it's. Returning phone calls, answering every call. Whatever process I built has to have speed around it. I mean, that's the ante to play in this game. Um, and then I keep things simple, man.

Dino - Austin Raw: You know,

Austin Raw: Simplicity is

Dino - Austin Raw: you know, I'll, I'll say.

Austin Raw: Yeah.

Dino - Austin Raw: I, I had a coach one time that told me, he, he actually told me, he, I had just had my fourth kid and he actually said, I'm gonna take your fourth kid and you're [01:05:00] not, you or your wife aren't gonna be able to see him until you make a million bucks. What are you gonna do? And made me think about it.

Right. And, and the thing is, is like, I thought to myself, just me, but what would my wife expect me to do? And, and it really like shifted things a little bit. And, and I, I know, I knew for the first time that my wife wouldn't care about work-life balance. She wouldn't care about, you know, if she had to pick up some slack around the house.

'cause that's not gonna make me a million bucks. Right? Like, I knew there was this, so that, that taught me a lesson about alignment and how I feel like there needs to be alignment between husband and wife. Otherwise it's pretty darn difficult to go out there and do what you're gonna do. Um, but, but the one thing that really triggered was that.

I wouldn't waste a second. If there was an opportunity to talk to somebody, I'd pick up the phone, I'd call 'em, there was an opportunity to do anything. I'd do it immediately. And, and I think sitting [01:06:00] back and strategizing so much all the time doesn't actually have any action to it. Right. And granted, you should be working on your business.

You should be doing this. But man, I gotta tell you, majority of the time, if you just said, right now, Dean, I need you to go make some money. I'd, I'd probably just go back to my database and start calling everybody I know. And somehow, one way or another I'd pick up, you know, pick up a few loans. Somebody's in debt, somebody's gonna be buying a house, somebody knows somebody.

And now in your case, right, the question's a little bit different because you don't know anybody there. You can't call your past database. And, and I asked that question because there's a lot of new people or there's a lot of people that have lost everything and other, it feels like they're starting over and.

Don't be paralyzed. Don't stick your head in the sand, right? Like, come up with a strategy. And I love your strategy about picking a lane. I think that's super important. If you could be an expert at something, you would, you will be perceived that way. And, and the riches are in the [01:07:00] niches, right? Like, it, it truly is.

And I know it's so counterintuitive to a lot of people. They can't help but they, but there's a loan there. I can grab that loan. I know you can. Let's stick in your lane. I promise you it's gonna come back tenfold. And then surrounding yourself with, with really smart people. I mean, that's, that's absolutely the best way to go.

I've, I've learned so much from other people. I remember, um, I, I joined a mastermind group, um, you know, and I did it for, I don't know, about five years. It was expensive. It wasn't cheap, but. I, I, I surrounded myself with all a hundred million plus dollar producers, and I learned so much from them. They're some of my best friends now.

But you will learn so much from smart people. So, you know, it's everybody listening. Do yourself a favor. Invest in yourself, even if you have to spend a little bit of money to go surround yourself with people. If, if there aren't people that you know. But I can tell you this, I, I called [01:08:00] somebody one day because he was the top producer in the company.

I said, Hey, man, can I pick your brain? I, I need to know what you're doing. Right? And, and I learned something. Do that often. I think that's, that's the smartest way to go. So I loved your answer. Um, and then speed, right? I, I think that goes down to what I just said. If I was in that situation, I wouldn't waste a second about thinking who to call.

I would just pick up the phone and start calling, right? And, and go, go, go. So. Pick your lane, surround yourself, smart people, and

Austin Raw: speed of the game. Speed of the game.

Dino - Austin Raw: speed of the game. So, dude, thank you so much for joining us. Um, you know, really appreciate it, man. And, and I love what you guys are doing at Rocket. I'm actually really enjoying watching and, and I love the class that that rocket does it in and, and in our mortgage industry.

I mean, you know, it's kind of, face it, that's kind of hard to do sometimes, right? Like, it, it's not the classiest, but you guys bring a class to our business [01:09:00] that I really appreciate because it's something that's always meant something to me. Um, I'm always gonna treat the client with, with respect and love.

I'm always gonna try and do it the right way no matter what. And no matter what my competitors might be trying to do, or the lies they, they say in order to get the deal, the whatever, it's just like, you know what, do it the right way every

Austin Raw: I, can I add one last thing before we go? So it's

Dino - Austin Raw: a hundred percent.

Austin Raw: Krishna, our CEO. I've learned more from him than anyone I've ever learned from in this business, but he, he, he was very unique. It's the first CEO we've ever brought in outside our four walls out of 40 years. And he had zero mortgage experience either.

Um, he came from the product and tech world and after like, um, I'm gonna put words in his mouth. So it's disclaimer bit in general is what he said. After like six months or eight months, he's like, or I was having dinner with him. He is like, it is crazy how everyone in this mortgage industry, like enemies, like everyone's enemy is weird to [01:10:00] me.

He's like, we just need to approach this differently and just make friends with everybody and learn from them and be open to learning from each other. Like, let's, let's create, let's take home ownership into the next era together. And he lives that. And so he built relationships with most CEOs in our industry.

Um, and that's how, like Redfin, right? He built an incredible relationship with Glenn Kelman and they became friends and they started talking and got creative. And then next thing you know, we're together. Jay Bray, CEO of Mr. Cooper. Varun became friends with it. They, they were competitors, direct competitors of ours, but instead he was open and he was, uh, it's like a mastermind.

They start talking and then relationships pop up, and then that leads to, to partnership. I just challenge everybody listening to this to do the same. If you're competing with someone in your local market and you're going head to head, call 'em up and let learn from each other. It might seem so damn counterintuitive, [01:11:00] but like go learn and go build relationships, even if it's your competition.

It's crazy how much we can learn from each other. You don't have to kill each other. In fact, we can both win this. This industry is so big. There's so much to go get. Have the courage to not be a cynic. Go out and build relationships and get curious. That's another piece of advice I'd give.

Dino - Austin Raw: Yeah, I love that. And I, and I have to say, um, I went back to Detroit, uh, what was it like September or October you guys had that event? And it was the first time I really got to, uh, I, I'm gonna say spend time with Varun, right? But I didn't spend time with him. I just got to experience. What he's done and what he's put together.

And, and I truly did. I took, it wasn't, to me, it wasn't the kind of event that I would sit and take notes on. Um, right. But, but I actually took more notes than any, any other thing I've done. But when I looked back at my notes, it [01:12:00] was always on, on leadership. It had nothing to do with loans. It had nothing to do with how to get loans or how to be, but it was everything all the way down to your, your, I think Jonathan, right?

The cm, uh, the CMO man, I was impressed by him. Right. And, and everybody that you guys had up on stage, and I'm trying to implement it here as well. And one of the things you guys did that I really loved is you took all the leadership, and if I'm, if I butcher it, correct me, but it was pretty much like each person had their vision and their, um, the, what it need, what they needed to do to accomplish that vision.

It was all written down, and you guys, even public publicly put it out everywhere. And then each and every one of the leaders had to, had to be responsible to everybody, everybody in the whole company, because for the company to be successful, they had to accomplish that. So I, I fought through that. I was like, man, if I had that much pressure on me [01:13:00] that I, it wasn't just my job and my little group and my, but it was everybody.

I wouldn't let them down. I would make sure that I did whatever I had to, to accomplish that goal because it was, it was part of the rest of the wheel. And if it, if it was broken, the wheel wouldn't turn. And, and I thought, gosh, that's such a, a great way to go. And then I love the fact that, um, he was so calm.

I don't know if he's just like that all the time or if he took like a real chill pillow right before he got

Austin Raw: 99% of the time, he is very calm and composed. Yes.

Dino - Austin Raw: Yeah. And, and what a great, you know, persona in leadership to keep everybody calm, to keep everybody excited and confident in the future, and, you know, all this other stuff.

And I was, I was really, truly impressed by him. So he is one of those, one of those guys, well, I, I'll just say it out loud. I have this little silent secret [01:14:00] bromance going, uh, with him, which he doesn't even know about, right? But I love watching him because I'm learning so much from him on how to be a leader.

And, and I think that's super important. And it goes back to what you were saying, surrender yourself with smart people. So I hope one day I get to meet him and, and pick his brain a

Austin Raw: We'll make it happen. Maybe he'll join the podcast. I'll put in a good word.

Dino - Austin Raw: Uh, I, I, I'll count on you for that one then. So, guys, listen, thank you so much for listening. I really appreciate it.

You guys, uh, you know, if you don't know this, uh, somehow, some way. The podcast made it into the top 100 of Apple podcasts at one point. It got even in the top 50. Um, and it's fluctuating a little bit here and there, but that, that's a huge accomplishment in our little mortgage world to be in the top 100 in, in the business category in all of Apple.

So I owe that to you guys and, and I really do thank you. I appreciate it. Um, if you guys enjoy it, don't just listen, but comment, [01:15:00] share.

Austin Raw: Appreci.