When Depression is in your bed
This podcast looks through both a professional and personal lens to explore the impact depression can have on individuals and on relationships. It takes a non-judgmental, destigmatizing view of mental health that encourages true, holistic healing and growth.
The host, Trish Sanders, is a Licensed Clinical Social Worker and Certified Advanced Imago Relationship Therapist. In addition to her experience in the office with couples and depression, both she and her husband have lived with depression for most of their lives. Trish shares with transparency and vulnerability, while bringing hope and light to an often heavy subject.
Follow Trish @trish.sanders.lcsw on Instagram for support in how to have a deeper connection and better communication in the relationships that matter most in your life.
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- If you are looking to take the first step towards improving your connection and communication with your partner, check out this FREE monthly webinar on "Becoming a Conscious Couple: How to Connect & Communicate with Your Partner," at wwww.wholefamilynj.com/webinar
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When Depression is in your bed
Communication for Connection Part 3: A Real-Life Imago Dialogue
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What if the conflict isn’t the problem — but the speed, the stories, and the nervous system state you’re in while you’re trying to communicate?
In this episode, my husband Ben joins me for our first ever real-time, recorded demonstration of the Imago Intentional Dialogue. After the last two episodes introduced the structure of the Dialogue, this one lets you hear what it actually sounds like when two partners use the process in a real moment of rupture — with real feelings, real nervous system activation, and real stakes.
We originally planned to dialogue about something that happened on my birthday, but a fresh conflict came up that felt even more relevant: tension around our new rhythm of co-hosting the podcast and the vulnerability of sharing something that has mattered deeply to me for a long time. What unfolded was a powerful example of how quickly a practical scheduling issue can turn into something much older — fear of relying on others, fear of not mattering, fear of being unseen.
Through an attachment and nervous-system informed lens, we slow the conversation down and walk step-by-step through the Dialogue: an appointment, mirroring, validation, empathy, and repair. You’ll hear how the structure helps interrupt “simultaneous monologuing,” reduces escalation, and makes space for the deeper story underneath the surface conflict.
In Trish’s share, you’ll hear how Ben going into the office on a snow day landed as abandonment and as a painful activation of an old belief: “I can’t rely on people.” In Ben’s share, you’ll hear how being told he wasn’t prioritizing the podcast landed as a gut punch — an experience of being unseen and unvalued despite the ways he has consistently supported the podcast and their family behind the scenes.
After the Dialogue, we reflect briefly on what it was like to repair, the role of the “ventral narrator” during dysregulation, and how even when a story is irrational, the emotional experience is still real, and worthy of care.
If you’ve ever felt stuck in painful cycles where both partners end up feeling alone, unimportant, or misunderstood, this episode offers a grounded example of what it looks like to create safety and connection in the middle of a real-life rupture.
In this episode, we explore:
- A real, unscripted Imago Dialogue between Trish and Ben
- How a practical conflict can activate deeper attachment wounds
- The “appointment” and why consent matters before hard conversations
- Mirroring in real time: what it sounds like to slow down and reflect accurately
- How old stories of abandonment and self-reliance can get triggered
- How “you don’t prioritize this” can land as shame, invisibility, and a gut punch
- The difference between intent and impact — and how Dialogue holds both
- The nervous system layer: dysregulation, repair, and the “ventral narrator”
- Why validation isn’t agreement, and empathy isn’t mind-reading
- How repair can happen quickly when partners return to curiosity and structure
This episode completes the introductory trilogy on Imago Intentional Dialogue:
➡️ Part 1: What the Imago Dialogue is and why it works (appointment, mirroring, validation, empathy)
➡️ Part 2: The personal stor
If you and your partner are ready to co-create the roadmap to the relationship of your dreams, join us for the next in-person "Getting the Love You Want" Weekend Couples Retreat!
For support in how to have deeper connections and better communication in the relationships that matter most in your life, follow the host, Trish Sanders on Instagram , Bluesky or LinkedIn.
Why We Changed Today’s Topic
SPEAKER_03Hello, and welcome to the When Depression is in your bed podcast. In today's episode, my husband Ben will be joining me again as co-host, and he will also be joining me for our first ever live demonstration of the Imago Intentional Dialogue, which is the communication tool that we use to save our relationship. I just want to dive right in here, so I'll introduce myself. Hi, I'm one of your hosts, Trish Sanders, and Hello everyone.
SPEAKER_00I'm Ben Sanders.
Setting Up The Imago Dialogue
SPEAKER_03And we are so delighted that you're here. Let's get started. So, in the last couple of episodes, I have been sharing information on the structure and the steps of the Imago dialogue, just so you could be familiar with the process when you watch it live as we're doing it. And in those episodes, I did reference that we would be dialoguing about something that happened on my birthday. But since that happened, we actually had another conflict that was in regards to the podcast. And we felt that because it was so incredibly relevant, we decided to switch our topics of the dialogue today. So that's what we'll actually be talking about, something that happened between us as it pertains to us doing this new co-hosting thing that we're doing and the shift from me doing solo podcast episodes to Ben being on the recording with me. So we're just gonna dive right in. If you're not familiar with the steps of the Imago dialogue, I definitely recommend that you listen back, particularly to the last two episodes. They give a lot of structure and information about how to use the dialogue and what it's about. And you can also look back into previous episodes where I talk about Imago and certainly you can keep listening. So hello.
SPEAKER_00Hi there, everyone. Hi there, Trish.
SPEAKER_03It's still a very new feeling to look over and see you sitting across from me when I'm when I'm recording. Uh are you that makes sense? Thanks. Are you ready for our dialogue? Yeah, let's do it. All right. So we have already discussed that I'm going to be the sender in the dialogue first, and Ben will be the first receiver. Uh, if we had not discussed that previously, then we would have that talk right now to be clear, but we already knew that coming in. But I will ask for an appointment is now a good time to discuss what happened uh the other day in regards to us recording our second podcast episode together.
SPEAKER_00Yes, absolutely.
Trish Names The Trigger
SPEAKER_03Thanks. So I noticed I had a reaction a few days ago when you decided to go into the office on a day when you could have stayed home and worked from home.
SPEAKER_00Okay, so you noticed that you had a reaction when I went into the office when I didn't have to go in the office when I could have stayed home. Did I get you?
SPEAKER_03Yes, you got me. And the reason I had that reaction is because if you were working from home, we would have had a little bit more flexibility without you like driving to work without the time of commute, and we would have just had a little bit more flexibility in the day that would have allowed for us to find some time to record our joint episode.
SPEAKER_00What I heard you say was that me going into work prevented us from having a flexible recording day, uh, and going into work prevented that.
SPEAKER_03Yes. And it was particularly important because we were really down to the wire, and it was like we either recorded that day or we weren't going to be able to record together in time to get the weekly episode out.
SPEAKER_00What I heard you say was this was a day that we needed to either record or we would have to do something else or provide another recording. Did I get you?
SPEAKER_03Yes, you got me. And I knew that you did know that I had another recording done. So we did technically have an episode, even though it still needs to be edited. I knew that you knew we had an episode that we could release last week instead.
SPEAKER_00Okay, so you knew that we had another episode that we could release, but you wanted to record that day.
SPEAKER_03Right. And I knew you knew what even more importantly, like I knew that we had another episode, but I knew that you were aware also.
SPEAKER_00Okay, so you also knew that I was aware that we had that episode already recorded, but you were wanting to do another recording that day.
Old Stories About Dependence
SPEAKER_03Yes, because in my head I was thinking that it was four weeks since our last joint episode, so in that way, it seemed like it should have been a joint episode.
SPEAKER_00Okay. Uh so you knew that we were working on a four-week schedule for this recording, and that was what you wanted to accomplish that day.
SPEAKER_03Yes. And so I was pretty sure that you would come home from work and finish editing the other episode, and we would still get the episode out, get an episode out last week, but I didn't know that for sure because I didn't actually hear from you for most of the day after you left for work.
SPEAKER_00Okay, so you weren't quite sure if I was going to edit a previous episode because we didn't speak while I was at work.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and but I was pretty sure the story I told myself was that you were going to, but I just didn't get confirmation on that.
SPEAKER_00Okay, so the story you told yourself was that I was going to edit the episode, but you weren't quite sure.
SPEAKER_03Yes. And that piece is not the main piece, but it's important just to note while we're talking about it. That alone of me sort of feeling some type of dependency on you was tough for me.
SPEAKER_00Okay, so if I heard you the story of your dependency on me, could you repeat that, please?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, like I was in my head, it felt like I had to rely on you to edit in order to release, which is maybe not totally accurate, but that's how we've been doing it, that you've been editing uh with me. And so in my head, it felt like I was relying on you for something, and I wasn't sure if you were going to be able to deliver.
SPEAKER_00Okay, so you weren't sure if I was going to deliver on editing that episode.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, even though and and so, well, yes, and for me, it's just important to say like the piece that I want you to hear is that it was hard for me to be in a position to feel like I was relying on you.
SPEAKER_00Okay, so it was a a hard situation to feel like you were relying on me.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and it was hard not necessarily because of us so much, but because of my own old stories that it's hard for me to rely on people.
SPEAKER_00Okay, so because of your old stories, uh you felt it difficult to rely on me for editing.
SPEAKER_03Well, it felt difficult that I needed to rely on you.
SPEAKER_00Okay, so you felt that it was difficult because of your old stories that you needed to rely on me.
SPEAKER_03Right, and to not know if you were gonna come through sort of reinforced felt in the moment, and I was kind of aware of this, like as it was happening, like, but it felt like it was reinforcing this old story, like I shouldn't rely on other people.
SPEAKER_00Okay, so it was reinforcing an old story of how you shouldn't have to rely on people.
The Snow Day Context
SPEAKER_03Yes. So I'm gonna leave that there for now because I want to get on to like the kind of more important part, but they kind of like meet up that idea of relying on somebody. So just for context, that day was a snow day. It was a weekday, but the kids were home from school, and Ben's office had given him the work from home day because of the weather. And like I said, it gave us a little bit of flexibility that we wouldn't normally have because the kids didn't have their regular events to go to and stuff, and Ben didn't have the commuting time. And so it felt like it was gonna be an easier, more relaxed day when Ben could do his work and then we could find time to record. But then things kind of just escalated in the morning with the kids and with Ben and I talking about recording, and it just escalated to the point where Ben decided that he would leave and go to the office instead of being home where it was more activating or more dysregulating for him, I think. Does that make sense? Is that do you want to add anything? No context?
SPEAKER_00No, I think that's a good foundation of what the day started.
SPEAKER_03Okay, so that was not part of the dialogue process, but just to give you some background. But when you left, the story I told myself was that I did think that you thought that leaving was the best thing that you could do, like the most helpful thing that you could do in that situation.
SPEAKER_00Okay, so you knew that it was the best option in that moment in that situation for me to go to the office?
SPEAKER_03Well, the story I told myself is that you thought it was the best option, like the most helpful option.
SPEAKER_00Okay. The story that you told yourself was that I thought that was the best option in the circumstance.
SPEAKER_03Right, exactly. And that the reason I I say that is because for me, and this is like the part really the the core of what I wanted you to hear, is that for me it was a really painful option that you left.
SPEAKER_00Okay, so for you it was a very painful option that I left.
SPEAKER_03Yes, because as I talked about my old stories of it being difficult to rely on other people, I did this podcast solo for a year. You can just mirror that part if you want to get that part first.
SPEAKER_00Okay, so in your old story of relying on somebody, you did this podcast solo for a year.
Pain Of Feeling Deprioritized
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and I think that part of that was very practical and part of my neurodivergence and scheduling and things, and there was never a time that I didn't want to include you, but scheduling gets more challenging. It's the same reason I haven't had on guests because that felt a little bit too big for me. So part of it is practical. I'll say that first.
SPEAKER_00Okay, so since you were solo, you didn't have to worry about scheduling because you always could do it, manage on your own. But it's not that you didn't want me to be part of it, it's just that being a solo podcaster, you could rely on your own schedule.
SPEAKER_03Exactly. So we'll just say like that, that's true, like that part of it's practical, and scheduling is challenging for me and make schedules are hard for a lot of people, but also I'm aware that there's another piece of if it's my own solo podcast, I don't have to rely on anybody else, which feels safer for me.
SPEAKER_00Okay, so it feels safe for you because you don't have to rely on anybody else.
SPEAKER_03Right. So bringing you in as co-host was so incredibly exciting for me for so many reasons.
SPEAKER_00Okay, so you felt that it was very exciting to bring me into the podcast for so many reasons.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and to feel like we're at a place in our relationship where we can do this and this can be ours, was like a dream come true.
SPEAKER_00Okay, so you were excited and you felt like it was a dream come true to share this podcast together.
SPEAKER_03And the first episode felt so fun to share with you, and the fears that I have, like this like fear about relying on people, was nowhere, nowhere in my conscious thinking at all. Like I had only excitement.
SPEAKER_00Okay, so there was no fear, it was only conscious excitement.
SPEAKER_03But then when you left and I was like, Well, you're gonna get home too late, and with bedtime and the kids, like I knew at that point we were there was no way we were going to be able to record a joint episode.
SPEAKER_00Okay, so you knew that since I was gonna be working at the office, and by the time I got home, there was gonna be no time for recording and doing the podcast together.
SPEAKER_03Right. And so that experience for me, even though I had the context, I believe that you were leaving to be helpful, and I knew that you knew I had another episode, it still landed for me as something really painful.
SPEAKER_00Okay, so even though that I knew that we had another podcast, me going to work still felt very painful.
SPEAKER_03Yes, because what was particularly hurtful was feeling like I could rely and depend on you, and then in that moment having the experience that I couldn't.
SPEAKER_00Okay, so the feeling that you could rely on me, but in that moment feeling like you could not.
SPEAKER_03Yes, and this podcast has been so um so powerful in my own personal growth, and it's become something that I didn't know it was going to become like something so so deeply meaningful to me.
Guardedness And Longing For Connection
SPEAKER_00Okay, so the podcast has become something very meaningful for you, and you had no idea that it was gonna be this meaningful.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and so then it felt like this special thing that was gonna become ours, and it felt like a really significant letdown or disappointment that it didn't feel like you were prioritizing something that was so important to me.
SPEAKER_00Okay, so you felt like I wasn't prioritizing something important to you.
SPEAKER_03Sort of, like you got part of it, like that is true. I but it's more than that. It's not just that like I didn't feel like you were weren't prioritizing something that was important to me. The story I told myself was that the podcast didn't matter to you either, and then by extension, somehow I didn't matter either.
SPEAKER_00Okay, so this story that you told yourself was the podcast didn't matter to me and you didn't either?
SPEAKER_03Yes. And again, it was like this idea of I shouldn't depend on people, I shouldn't rely on anybody else.
SPEAKER_00And what you told yourself was that you shouldn't rely on anybody else or depend on anybody else?
SPEAKER_03Yes, and I had all of these stories in my head of like I'm not releasing an episode this week, I'm not gonna do any more co-hosting with Ben because this is too scary to have to rely on you. I mean, it now I'm laughing, like thinking about it, because it was like several days ago, but like in the moment it wasn't funny at all. It was like you can he can't be on a co-host with you, and I even was thinking about just leaving that night, not forever or anything, that wasn't what I was thinking, but just like it was so I was so overwhelmed, I felt like I needed space to like calm down before I could see you again, because it was that painful for me.
SPEAKER_00Okay, so you felt pain that I didn't matter to you and the podcast didn't matter to you or to me, and you felt like you needed to gain space, not long term, but right just get away from it because of the pain.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, right, because it was so deeply painful. It felt like I was sharing a piece of myself in this very vulnerable way, and that you didn't care. That was the experience.
SPEAKER_00Your experience was sorry to cut you off. Yeah. But your experience was that you were sharing something very vulnerable, and I was not there to receive it.
Ben Mirrors And Validates
SPEAKER_03Yes. And I think the last thing I really want to share about that is just what I'm noticing in myself now. I feel very grateful. I feel extremely grateful that we're doing this and we're recording this for the podcast. I also notice, though, that I kind of feel like a little bit guarded even now talking to you about it.
SPEAKER_00Okay. So you're very grateful that we're sharing this podcast now, but you're still feeling like you are guarded in the moment.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and that is sad and hurtful to me because I really don't want to feel guarded with you, I guess.
SPEAKER_00Okay, so you feel sad because you don't want to feel guarded with me.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and I really think that we are at a place where this is something that can be ours, and like we can create something, hopefully, that's meaningful or helpful to someone else out there in the world who struggled, who's struggling the way we have struggled.
SPEAKER_00Okay, and you feel like this is I'm so sorry. What did you could you repeat that, please?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, of course. Just that I feel this is something that we're at a place where we can share this, like we can create this together, and that it could be something helpful to somebody else out there listening who maybe is struggling now in a similar way to how we've struggled.
SPEAKER_00Okay, so what I hear is we're at a place now that we could share and help somebody else who is experiencing struggle.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, in the way that we have in the past.
SPEAKER_00In the way that we have in the past.
SPEAKER_03And I guess and sometimes the way that we still do.
SPEAKER_00And sometimes the way we still do.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. And so, like, I don't want to feel guarded with you. I want to feel connected.
SPEAKER_00Okay, so you want to feel connected with me and not guarded. Yeah. Did I get that? You got it. Is there more?
SPEAKER_03There's no more for now.
Appreciation And A Reset
SPEAKER_00Wow. So in summary, I heard you say that the podcast is very important to you, and it is an extension of our relationship that you would like to share together. And because I've decided to go to the office instead, you felt that an old story of how you cannot rely on others and that you need to do it yourself.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Another story that you told yourself was that the podcast wasn't a priority, and maybe in my own words, that you were not a priority, and that created a wall or resistance for you. And you were overly excited about the podcast, which led to uh these stories about how I might have not seen how important it is to you, or you didn't feel like you were important.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. I don't feel like I was overly excited, just that I was actually only consciously excited, like the fears or reservations weren't present for me consciously. Like I wasn't actually worried about doing this together. And then when it felt like we hit a wall, it was like, oh no.
Ben’s Share: Exhaustion And Escalation
SPEAKER_00Okay, so you felt like it was a wall because you knew that there wasn't gonna be enough time in the day by the time I got back to create that podcast with you.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, it was like a little like voice in my head of like, uh, you shouldn't have trusted anybody.
SPEAKER_00Okay, so no voice of you can't trust anybody.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, like it was a mistake.
SPEAKER_00And you knew that I was making the best, what I thought was the best decision, but your story and hurt was still created then.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Did I get you?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, that was a very complete summary. Just the part that I just really want you to hear is how I notice that I still feel a little bit guarded because this does feel like a very vulnerable thing to share. Not necessarily the dialogue. I mean the dialogue a bit, but like I mean like the podcast feels like a little vulnerable, it feels like my special thing that I'm sharing with you.
SPEAKER_00Okay, so you're still feeling guarded and excited to share the podcast with me, but guarded because of the disappointment.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and I don't want to feel that way. I really want to feel excited and connected and like this is something that is ours.
SPEAKER_00And you're excited to share this and you're excited to make this ours.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Is there more?
SPEAKER_03No, you got me.
SPEAKER_00So what you said makes sense. The story that you told yourself of the how you can't rely on others would feel very hurtful and feel alone. It makes sense that you put up a wall because of your hurt. It also makes sense about still feeling that you want to create with me, but it might take some time. It also makes sense that what you thought I was doing by going to work to help the situation might not have landed the same for you in the moment.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Did that feel validating?
SPEAKER_03Yes, it did. I think so.
SPEAKER_00I imagine you felt uh abandoned.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And angry or frustrated that it didn't feel like I was with you on a planned podcast.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. I definitely felt abandoned. And I did feel angry, but honestly, like, and this is an old feeling, I felt more angry at myself in that moment. I was aware that this was a story, even though it was happening, but I felt angry at myself, like, how could I put myself in a position to rely on somebody? So the anger was less at you. I felt abandoned. And the word that's coming to my mind is like misaligned, like disconnected from you. That's that's yeah, I felt disconnected.
The Gut Punch Of “Not Prioritizing”
SPEAKER_00Okay, so it makes sense that you felt disconnected because we agreed to record together, but because of circumstance, it didn't happen. Even though you were consciously aware of my decision, your old story led you to feeling abandoned and not important and put a wall. So it makes it make sense.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_03Thanks. I would just like to add, usually, when we do dialogue, certainly if I do a dialogue with a couple in the office, we start with appreciations and we didn't start with appreciations today, but I really do want to share an appreciation because you did come home that night and immediately started working on editing the episode that I had already recorded. And we did get an episode out on time last week. It just wasn't our episode. So thank you for that because it made me feel more like we were a team again, like right away, as soon as you got home from work. So I just want to share that appreciation.
SPEAKER_00Thank you. Okay, so you wanted to share the appreciation that I did come home and made sure that the recorded podcast that we already had. Had was ready to go and edited, and you were appreciative that that still happened.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I think for sure. And before we switch, let's do the famous Amago hug. Well, the famous Amago hug is actually a 60-second full body hug. We don't have to do a whole six because a 60-second full body hug in a podcast would be very boring content.
SPEAKER_00Well, I can do 60 seconds and then edit it out and it'll look like one second.
SPEAKER_03Can I have a real hug? I know the microphones are in the way.
SPEAKER_00Thanks. Thank you for sure.
SPEAKER_03Thank you for listening. So now we'll switch. And I'll be the receiver and you can be the sender.
SPEAKER_00So in listening to your share, I see a lot of parallels with what I have to share. And now that we're like a few days removed, there's some clarity. But that day was a little bit of a struggle from the get-go.
SPEAKER_03Okay, so I heard you say that in listening to me, there are a lot of parallels in what I shared in compared to what you also experienced. And now that it's been a few days out, you have some more did you say clarity?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, clarity.
SPEAKER_03More clarity, but that particular day we were struggling from the get-go. Did I get you?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. You know, dealing with the snow days and you know, working from home that day is an option. I I mean, even just getting up in the morning, I was already exhausted. I don't know what it was. I just did not sleep soundly that night. And I was I remember even just contemplating like, can I even function enough to work today? So I knew I wasn't in good shape even before interacting with anybody, like just when I just woke up that morning.
SPEAKER_03So I heard you say that there was a lot going on with work and the snow days and stuff that we had had, but on top of all of that stuff, also you didn't have a good night's sleep the night before, and you knew that when you woke up you were already struggling and and tired, and you were actually considering before anything even happened between us or like with the kids or whatever, like, did you have enough energy to be able to just work that day? Did I get you?
Why Space Was Necessary
SPEAKER_00Yes. So I was already feeling a little bit on edge and dysregulated, as you would say. So once the day started with, you know, taking care of the kids and snow days and everybody's home, and I'm trying to get prepared, and you're asking about like when we were recording, it just felt like too much. And rather than be argumentative or inappropriate in front of the kids, or be in an unhelpful conversation, I did the best that I could and felt like once the kids and you were settled, I could just go straight to the office and we'll address later. Felt like the right thing to do in the moment.
SPEAKER_03Okay, so you said that you were kind of feeling dysregulated already to start out with, and there was a lot going on, but once they started asking you questions about when we were going to record, and then there was other stuff happening with the kids, with each of the kids, everything just escalated for you. I might be adding words in there a bit, but as I understand it, and so you got to the point where you were you consciously didn't want it to get argumentative or have us say things that were not appropriate to be said in front of the kids, like have a scene or whatever in front of the kids or something. So you made the choice, like knowing that me and the kids were fine and okay for the day, that going to work would be the best option. Did I get you?
SPEAKER_00Yes. Okay. What I recognized that really pushed me was you mentioned in the moment where I was like, I can't, like, I need to step away. Was when you said I don't prioritize the podcast. That got my uh as I say, got my goat.
SPEAKER_01Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_00That hurt. Because I feel like, again, my perspective, I felt like I always make sure that we get stuff on time and we always figure it out.
SPEAKER_03So I heard you say that what really got your goat and what really hurt you was when I when I made a comment that you weren't prioritizing the podcast. And what was so hurtful about that is that you've actually been very much prioritizing the podcast for a year and making sure that we got things done and we got the podcast out every week. Did I get you?
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_03Is there more?
Parallels: Aloneness And Value
SPEAKER_00Yes. I have clarity on like my perspective of it. The details exactly in the moment just felt like it escalated quickly. And I think I felt like you were attacking me on my decision making. At least the story I tell myself was like, we had a plan, yes, but I don't think there was gonna be anything productive if we had this rupture without addressing it in some sort of dialogue.
SPEAKER_03So I think I heard you say like you have clarity now, even though some of the details are not. Is that what you're saying? That some of the details aren't exactly there, but you recall that the story you told yourself or how you experienced me was that it felt like the way I was talking to you felt attacking, and for what was happening in that moment, it seemed like things escalated quickly. And you even we had it scheduled. Oh, right. I'm sorry, thank you. We had things scheduled, we had a plan, and that's what I was pushing to stick with the plan. But there was also like this rupture that was happening for both of us, and if we didn't address that rupture, if we had just stuck to the plan, things would not have been very productive anyway. Did I get you? Okay, is there more?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and just that there was still too many feelings in that moment that I felt like we needed to dialogue first before any podcasting at that point. Okay, so because I was so dysregulated or so frustrated or felt so hurt that I couldn't just be like, okay, let's podcast now. Like, no, there's a rupture here, and I'm feeling very disconnected from you. So I need some space to breathe and give it time to settle down and then have a conversation about it before we did anything else.
SPEAKER_03Okay, so I heard that you were so hurt and dysregulated in the moment, and there was so much happening that there was no way that you were just gonna be able to like switch all that off and just like be on the podcast. Like we needed to repair that and have a dialogue and reconnect before we could move on to recording. Did I get you?
Post-Dialogue Reflection
SPEAKER_00Yes. And the parallel to your share is I felt alone that she thinks I'm not prioritizing made me feel like I didn't have any contribution to your podcast. Maybe I take it super personally in my story of it felt like there was no consideration for everything that I put into our relationship and podcast.
SPEAKER_03So I heard that similarly to me, you also had an experience of feeling alone and like unseen, maybe like that your contribution, which has been vast, that those are my words, not yours, but I think it's like you've made an enormous contribution to the podcast for so long. And for me to say something like it didn't matter to you or it wasn't a priority to you, landed for you as like all that you had done had not been important or recognized. Not like not recognized like you know, like you need like a medal or something, like, but just like I wasn't acknowledging the importance of all the effort that you've not only put into the podcast but into our relationship as well. Did I get you?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean like in a dysregulated state, I sort of took to the next level of just the relationship, but uh it I was just like my self-talk was like, is she is she serious, like prioritization? Like my family is number one, and I try to do whatever I can for you and the kids, and I I know how important this podcast is to her, and that's why like i i it we'll do uh you know, 11 o'clock at night episodes of editing, and how could she even say that? I was just hurt. But if uh the sensation of feeling it was it just it just felt like you punched me in the stomach with that one.
SPEAKER_03So I heard you say that it really felt like I punched you in the stomach saying that because your self-talk was like, Is she serious? Like you know how important the podcast is. You try to do everything you can for me and for the kids and for our family and our relationship, and how could I even say that? Did I get you?
SPEAKER_00Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_03Is there more?
SPEAKER_00Sure, I'll think of something 30 minutes from now, but uh that's pretty much the main points of my share at the moment.
Ventral Narrator And Repair
SPEAKER_03Okay, so in summary, I heard you say that there were a lot of parallels between what I experienced, what you experienced that morning and that day, but what was really hurtful for you was that I had commented that the podcast wasn't a priority for you, and that really hurt you, and it felt like it didn't recognize or take into consideration all the effort that you have, in fact, put in and how clearly you have acted for a whole year already to prioritize the podcast and getting it out, and it really made you feel alone and like your work was not somehow being recognized or your contribution didn't have meaning to me. Like it was so easy to overlook, kind of, and that things had escalated that morning very quickly with stuff happening with the kids and with the snow day and work and all these different things happening and all the responsibilities, and even though we had a plan, it didn't really make sense to keep up with that plan because there was such a rupture that had happened, and you didn't want to create more problems, and you knew that we were okay, so you're like me and the kids were okay. That if you went to the office, you would just be able to go and focus on what you needed to do at work, and we could repair later because you wouldn't be able to just switch it all off anyway and just do a recording or something. Oh, and the piece that you had woken up already kind of not feeling great and not having had a good night's sleep, and so you were in an off place to begin with, but you were trying to make the best decision that you could make for us in that situation, so we things didn't get more out of hand or more dysregulated. Did I get you?
SPEAKER_02Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_03Is that an accurate summary?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, the parallels of our shares, aloneness, and importance, value.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, so there's a parallel in both of us with importance and aloneness and feeling valued. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, I think that all makes sense. And I think that the experience you had of when I said that you were prioritizing the podcast, it totally makes sense that that landed as like a gut punch for you because clearly you have put in a lot of time and dedication to the podcast. It makes sense that the way that I was presenting it in that moment felt really hurtful to you, and that I wasn't taking into consideration how much you have actually, in fact, prioritized this work. Does that feel validating?
SPEAKER_00It's more validating because I heard your share first and where your hurts were. So they're just two separate sensations of hurts, which there's the clarity, so yes, it is Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And I imagine that I mean there's different places I could empathize, I think, but when I made that comment about you not prioritizing the podcast, I imagine that you felt unimportant or undervalued and like unseen or unknown. Like I didn't know your true self or like your true values. Does that make sense? Is that how you feel?
SPEAKER_00It makes sense.
SPEAKER_03I mean, maybe it's just aloneness, but I don't know. Is that how you felt?
SPEAKER_00I felt very similar to you. Frustrated, disappointment, and a little bit of anger because it just felt like I was just like some random robot editor slash podcaster, not a person. It just felt so short.
SPEAKER_03So you didn't even feel like valued as a person today?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I was shocked and appalled almost.
SPEAKER_03You were shocked and appalled.
SPEAKER_00I don't ever use that word. I was just surprised too? Like what? Like really?
SPEAKER_03I felt like it didn't.
SPEAKER_00Is there a feeling called what and really?
SPEAKER_03It just didn't even make sense to you. You were surprised. You like it.
SPEAKER_00It did not make sense in the the most frustrating way.
SPEAKER_03It did not make sense in the most frustrating way. Is that how you felt?
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Thank you for sharing.
SPEAKER_00Thank you for listening.
SPEAKER_03Hug. So there you have it. Our first recorded dialogue. Do you mind if we talk about it a little bit? We don't usually like necessarily talk about it afterwards, but just based on what you were just saying in the validation. Are you open to talking about it a little?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, if you want to add to it, absolutely.
Sensitive Spots And Circumstance
SPEAKER_03Well, just to say that we obviously were able to reconnect enough to decide to record this dialogue for the podcast. We both came back to a place of more regulation and more connection. Like, really by that night, like I said, when you came home and you started editing my other episode, I was like, all right, he knew we had that episode. It was just a rough day. You know, like I kind of had a little bit more clarity. I wasn't like, this is the end of the world kind of feeling, which I had a little bit.
SPEAKER_00Well, I mean, you said that you were looking for space and even considering like maybe just getting a hotel room. I remember you mentioned that that night or whatever. And I actually felt better on the way home. It's again for me, like I know there's terms like hangry and exhaustion or whatever, but for me, you just need a moment. Like you could catch a breath, and sometimes it takes some hours before I could even come to you and approach you.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah. No, I mean I think that all makes sense just to say that after having the dialogue, it makes so much sense to me that in this moment it seems absolutely ridiculous for me to tell you that you weren't prioritizing the podcast. But in that moment, that's what it felt like. But as I shared, for me, that was an old hurt coming out in the present. And like you said, I felt abandoned. Like I was like, Are you serious? You're gonna leave me right now? Like, are you like and you like you weren't leaving me, like you were going to your job. And had you been home, you would have had to work too. But it just felt like you leaving the house felt like this grand gesture of abandonment, which it clearly was not.
SPEAKER_00But no, I mean, on the surface, if you just read like a two-page novel, you'd be like, What? He left.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, right. But like also, like and and I I've been having this experience so much more over the last few years where I call it the ventral narrator, where I am having an experience that that the emotions are dysregulated, they're big, they're hurtful, they're painful. But I have this little ventral narrator voice of this grounded version of me, like, oh, I see that you're really dysregulated right now, Trish. And I had that in that moment, but even having that little voice, which is very helpful to have, and it's nice to have develop that voice, it didn't change my emotional experience. Like I still had to go through that. I mean, it helped me not to like act up in a banana's way. I mean, thinking about getting a hotel is very different than actually having gotten one. I've never gotten a hotel, just for the record. Like, I've never, right? I don't think I've ever, I mean, I've thought that before, but I don't think I've ever actually gotten a hotel in the stage.
SPEAKER_00Not for nothing, I think. I've done it a handful of times too, where you're like, I can't take anymore. I'm just gonna go sleep in a hotel tonight.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, like thought that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right, right, right.
SPEAKER_03But like, I mean, when we were separated, that was different, but like when we since we've been back together, that has not actually happened, but it provided me some relief for a moment thinking that I had an exit.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then well, it's like irrational thought or protective thought, right?
Takeaways And Ongoing Practice
SPEAKER_03Right, right, right. A protective thought. But then like I felt more regulated. And like I said, when you came and you started editing as soon as you got home, I was like, okay, this isn't the huge issue that I was thinking it was, and like my ventral narrator was more correct, we're gonna figure this out together. But hearing you share that it was so painful when I was saying that the podcast wasn't a priority, it hurt my heart to hear you say that because that makes so much sense. You didn't have that context of me. If I would have said, Oh, in the context of my old story of relying, of relying, you know, uh uh of it being difficult to rely on others and you're leaving me right now, and this is triggering an old, you know, an old hurt. Yeah, it's not practical. Like I feel like you're the story I tell myself in this moment is that you're not prioritizing the podcast. Probably that would have landed differently. And there's some moments, because I was also pretty dysregulated, all things considered, in that particular moment. And there are some moments where I can say something like that to you, so I'm telling myself as this, or I need a moment or something, and vice versa. It's funny to think about because in the grand context of our life, almost 22 years together, it wasn't a level 10 of dysregulation for either of us when we've had level 10s before. But in our more recent life and the more recent years, that was a pretty big one. Like our does that make sense? Like our dysregulation level has reduced significantly. So comparatively, that that's a big level.
SPEAKER_00That could have set the scorched earth situation. Yes. But I also want to say, like, I we've been together for so long and we kind of know each other's hurts. And talking about not being particularly practical, but like again, feeling like you did the best you can with as clear-headed as I could be, but I could have been like, I'm not abandoning, because I know there's a sense in all humanity of like feeling abandonment in some way or another, but like there's no way, even though I know that that is something that you feel, and it's a story and an old story, there's no way I could be like, I'm not abandoning you, but I'm going to work because I can't talk to you about this. I'm not saying it's out of the realm, but in that moment, I I can practice it and maybe throw it in there and sprinkle it in a little bit, but in that moment, I was just like, 75% I'm doing the right decision, 25% of being like, I'm not abandoning you would have been like the probably the clearer thing to do in retrospect.
SPEAKER_03There have been moments in other situations where you were not as dysregulated where you did say things like that, like I'm taking a moment for myself, I'm not abandoning you, or I'm not trying to make you feel any negative feeling, like I'm just trying to take care of myself. Like you have said things like that to me in the past, but like I said, I think for where we are now in our lives, that was a pretty high level of dysregulation for both of us because it was hitting sore tender spots for both of us.
SPEAKER_00But yeah, and under under circumstance, right? So sensitive spots and circumstance.
Invitation And Closing
SPEAKER_03Yeah, but it really makes sense. And just as you said, stepping back. I mean, by that night I felt somewhat differently about it, and certainly now, days later, I can look back and be like, oh, look, I learned more about you, and I was able to share how important this podcast is. This dialogue felt really special, and I think the dialogue about my birthday would have been interesting as far as I think a lot of a lot of relationships have birthday stresses in different ways. So, like, I think that it could be something that a lot of people relate to. And on the surface, maybe not all couples are creating podcasts together, but couples are in partnership working and creating a life together, and challenges come up with that where people can feel abandoned and alone. So hopefully this was a valuable and helpful dialogue. And I thank you as always for being here. Thanks for having me. Thanks, and just for being with me on this journey. And I absolutely know that you do prioritize this, and I'm very grateful to have you in my life and very grateful to be able to see what we can create together. So I hope that the dialogue was, I don't know, valuable, I guess, for you in some way. Ben and I plan to continue sharing a dialogue together. We'll have some episodes where we talk about different things not in dialogue format, but I think the dialogue process has been so helpful. And I tell the people that I work with that it really is true. And Ben and I have a challenging, emotionally charged conflict. We use the structure of the dialogue because we have found that it's the only way that we can have a productive and helpful conversation together. Otherwise, things can go really off the rails. And I want to just show people how to use this tool. So stay tuned as we continue to dialogue. And I hope you enjoy this sample of conscious connected communication. As our time comes to a close, I ask you to keep listening for just a few more moments because I want to thank you for showing up today. And I want to leave you with an invitation as you hit stop and move back out into the world on your own unique wellness journey. In order to move from where you are today to the place where you want to be, the path may seem long or unclear or unknown. And I want you to know that if that seems scary or daunting or downright terrifying or anything else, that is totally okay. No. That you do not have to create the whole way all at once. We don't travel a whole journey in one stride. And that is why my invitation to you today is to take a step, just one. Any type, any size, in any direction. It can be an external step that can be observed or measured, or it could be a step you visualize taking in your mind. It can be a step towards action or towards rest or connection or self-care or whatever step makes sense to you. I invite you to take a step today because getting to a place that feels better, more joyful, more connected than the place where you are today is possible for everyone, including you, and even when depression is in your bed. If today's episode resonated with you, please subscribe so you can be notified when each weekly episode gets released. I encourage you to leave a review and reach out to me on social media at trish.sanders.lcsw. Your feedback will help guide future episodes, and I love hearing from you. Also, please share this podcast with anyone who you think may be interested or who may get something from what I have shared. Until the next time we connect, take care of yourself and take a step.