Repair in Real Life: What We’ve Learned About Creating Relational Safety and Reconnecting

What does repair actually look like in real life and what makes it possible for two people to reconnect, even after years of disconnection?

In this episode, my husband Ben joins me for a real, unscripted conversation about what we’ve learned over time about repair and how creating relational safety has been essential in allowing that repair to happen.

Building on the previous episodes on intention, impact, rupture, and repair, we move beyond understanding repair and into lived experience. Because while many people know that repair matters, what often gets missed is this: repair is only possible when both people feel safe enough to move toward one another.

Through a candid conversation about our own relationship, we explore how moments of disconnection can quickly activate defensiveness, protection, or withdrawal and how those responses, while understandable, can make reconnection feel out of reach. We also reflect on how our relationship has evolved as we’ve learned to recognize these patterns and respond differently.

Through an Imago and nervous-system-informed lens, this episode centers the idea that repair is not about fixing a problem or proving who is right or wrong. The deeper work of repair is creating relational safety, an environment where both partners can take accountability, stay present, and move back toward connection without fear of blame, shame, or disconnection.

We also explore how relational safety is not something one person gives, but something co-created through presence, curiosity, responsibility, and a willingness to stay engaged even when it feels vulnerable.

At its core, this episode is an invitation to see that repair is not just a skill, it’s a relational process that becomes more accessible over time as safety is built, experienced, and reinforced between two people.

In this episode, we explore:

• What repair looks like in real life, over time, in an evolving relationship
• Why relational safety is the foundation that makes repair possible
• How disconnection can activate protective responses like defensiveness, shutdown, or withdrawal
• Why those responses are often about protection, not lack of care
• What it means to co-create safety between two partners
• The role of accountability and responsibility in restoring connection
• How repair becomes more accessible as safety increases
• What changes when partners feel safe enough to stay present and engaged
• The difference between understanding repair and living it in real time
• How relational patterns shift over time with awareness and practice
• What it looks like to reconnect after disconnection without blame or shame
• Why repair is an ongoing process, not a one-time fix

This episode is part of an ongoing series on rupture and repair. In this conversation, we bring the focus to what makes repair possible, highlighting how creating relational safety allows two people to reconnect and grow together over time.

If you and your partner are ready to co-create the roadmap to the relationship of your dreams, join us for the next in-person "Getting the Love You Want" Weekend Couples Retreat! 

For support in how to have deeper connections and better communication in the relationships that matter most in your life, follow the host, Trish Sanders on Instagram , Bluesky or LinkedIn.

Transcript

Welcome And Repair Overview

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hello, and welcome to When Depression is in Your Bed podcast. In today's episode, I'm going to continue the topic that I've been talking about for a few weeks: relational repair. I've been talking about what relational repair actually is, what it means, how to do it, what can be challenging, and more. And I thought to myself, while I think it's important to share my perspective on what relational repair means, I also said that repair is a two-person job. So I thought it was really important to be joined here today by my partner. I'm your host, Trish Sanders, and this is my co-host and husband, Ben Sanders. And we are delighted that you are here. Let's get started. So, as I mentioned in the last several episodes, I've been talking about relational repair. And you might think of that as an apology or a way to respond after there's been an argument or a conflict. And I've been talking about relational repair as a goal of restoring connection, which does not always necessarily address a behavior change, although it certainly might be able to be included in a repair process. And a repair process might not actually always include an official I'm sorry. It really depends on the people in the relationship and the situation and so much more. But I wanted to talk today with my husband then about some of the challenges that we've had and even still continue to have in some ways around the repair process. So hopefully you can listen in, relate. I'm very open to you sharing what might be difficult for you and your repair process. So we can talk more about it and explore it further. Hello. Hey honey, how are you doing? I'm very well. How are you doing today? I'm pretty good. It's sunny out. It is sunny out. Helps helps your mind. I agree. It's very nice that spring has finally sprung. It seems like it's been winter for a very long time, at least here in New Jersey.

unknown 1:39

Yeah.

The Trigger Phrase "I Didn't Mean To"

SPEAKER_00 1:40

Uh I thank you for joining me today to talk about repair. We're still trying to figure out how to prepare episodes where they're not scripted, but also we're both involved in choosing the topic. And so we have an idea about what we want to talk about. And we did decide that we're not going to do the full structured Imago intentional dialogue, but we will be speaking dialogic. So you'll hear us using mirroring and validation and empathy in the process, but we won't be officially choosing a sender and a receiver and then going through a full half the dialogue and switching. It'll be a little bit more conversational as we talk about the repair process. So I had mentioned that out of the last several episodes, I thought that two themes that came up for me that I recognize that show up in our relationship when it comes to the challenges around repair are one, how the very first episode started out with our son saying I didn't mean to, and that was a trigger for me because that's something that you often say or have often said. I think you probably still say it sometimes, that you didn't mean to do something, and then that feels like it's negating my experience and the impact. And so I wanted to talk about that, but I was really particularly curious about your experience of when you legitimately didn't mean to be hurtful and what's happening for you. So that was one thing I was curious about. And then the other thing that came up as I was doing these episodes was also the idea that I don't think that you feel that I say I'm sorry very often. And I have my own thoughts about why that could be, although I'm open and curious to think about it in another way. But I was also curious what that's like for you. So do either of those strike you or resonate for you in any way that you want to talk more about?

SPEAKER_01 3:06

Yeah, I'm very familiar with those sensations. I'd love to talk about it, sure.

SPEAKER_00 3:10

So do you have any like what's a for your first thought when you hear those topics? Or even just the idea of relational repair?

SPEAKER_01 3:16

Okay, so my reaction, or at least when you first mentioned I didn't mean to do that, or my intention wasn't to hurt or harm. I hear my son just because it's more frequent. I don't feel like it's something I necessarily verbalize. Maybe subconsciously it's still inside of me when it happens. Our son's behavior is probably remodeled behavior from me. Uh, so unfortunately, maybe gave him some of that as a coping mechanism or strategy that doesn't serve him or me. Well, as a model, I definitely could have done better if he's using that strategy. We're trying to think of others first or not necessarily have a huge reaction as your first reaction. And for me, if I'm disappointing myself in that somebody was affected negatively, so just the thought of like hurting somebody else, you just feel like you're on the defensive right away. Like that's a familiar place for me because you're like, why would I want to hurt somebody or disappoint somebody? And I end up disappointing myself and hurting myself. Because why would Damon want to accidentally push Lucy and harm her and she's upset? And then it feels like you let her down or let yourself down. Using the term dysregulated, you're dysregulated because you're like, I didn't mean to hurt her, like I didn't do it. Or maybe in a helpless state, you could tell yourself like what I do now and think like you're part of the problem and causing issue rather than being like a member of the family or a friend that is, you know, an asset and seeing it like in a black and white, like am I good or bad? And I'm being bad.

SPEAKER_00 4:47

So let me see if I got you. I want to see if I can just do a little summary mirror there. So if I'm hearing you, I heard you say that when you think of that term, I didn't mean to. What first comes to your mind is our son, because you think that at this point you hear him use that more frequently than you noticed yourself using it. And you also recognize that maybe that's something that you either have said or has been an internal experience for you, and you you took some accountability on perhaps you have modeled it over the course of our son's life. He's 14 now, so he may have witnessed your reaction in that regard. And so that you're thinking perhaps he learned that response from watching you, and that it wasn't necessarily the most helpful thing to model. And yet you're also realizing that when you hurt somebody unintentionally that you love and care about, as we talked about that our son hurt our daughter by accident, pushing her past her behind her in the chair, that you do recognize for yourself it has brought up feelings of questioning almost your worth. It sounded like, Am I good enough or am I bad for hurting someone that I love? And so you do recognize, as I I talk about dysregulation a lot, but there's sort of been this response in yourself to protect yourself from feeling bad that you hurt somebody you love. Did I get you?

SPEAKER_01 5:56

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 5:57

Yeah. And is there more?

SPEAKER_01 5:58

Yeah, I mean, you can go down a real negative path, and I definitely have, where you're just like, you know what, it's easier just not to be part of something. Maybe I shouldn't have like just come to breakfast or lunch and hit that chair, and I should have just, you know, ate in my own space or away from everybody else because it just feels easier and there's less chance of conflict.

SPEAKER_00 6:16

So you have seen yourself coming into almost a shutdown. Like I'll just avoid these situations because I don't want to get into this is my word, not yours, but I don't want to get into trouble. So it's better to just avoid it altogether. Did I get that?

SPEAKER_01 6:28

Yeah, it's not trouble or just causing conflict, or we always say rupture, but like causing a conflict or the opportunity for letting somebody down or disappointing yourself or things not working out the way that you feel like it should, or just even just being at a a level point, like you're causing a rift in a situation.

SPEAKER_00 6:46

Okay, so not not a fear about getting into trouble, but or not a feeling of not wanting to get into trouble, but more you just don't want to create any conflict and create some sort of disappointment in yourself or or others.

SPEAKER_01 6:55

Yeah, you feel like you tell yourself that uh it would be easier if I wasn't there, or in those moments. Like you're just you're excited to be in a group, but then when something you feel like you caused and your intention wasn't to cause, you're just like, wow, like, yeah, I'll tell myself a negative thought. I it would have been easier if I just wasn't even a part of it. And then if you do that enough times, you know, that's just not helpful at all.

Defensiveness And Nervous System States

SPEAKER_00 7:18

Yeah, I really am really I'm listening to you and it's making me curious. As I talked about in the previous episodes, which you know as you edited them and listened to them, but the way I see it or the way I understand it is that the biggest thing that gets in the way of repair, and sometimes an apology or an I'm sorry, but just the reconnecting process is defensiveness. And that can show up in many different ways. And as I'm hearing you, I can almost feel like viscerally in my body when you're talking about not wanting to disappoint or feeling bad, like I did something wrong. That it makes so much sense to me that you in in that state, and that's like a nervous system state shift into that dorsal shutdown, that you would want to be avoidant, even though when you're feeling safe enough and grounded, you want to be in connection. In those moments, it feels like why bother?

SPEAKER_01 8:03

Does that feel yeah? Why bother is one thing. And it I mean, if you want to go to like the real source of things, it's like feeling lovable, right? So you're again, this is a story you could tell yourself because it's not true. Because of course, like we love our family, and I I love my son, and I knew that he wasn't trying to hurt her, like that makes sense. But like maybe when I'm not in a clear head or he's experiencing dysregulation, you're just like, Well, you you don't feel very lovable to yourself, and you're telling yourself a story of that the people around you are loving you less because you cause them this. It doesn't make sense, but like in the moment I can feel something completely irrational that I'm not lovable because I cause somebody discomfort.

SPEAKER_00 8:42

Well, you're saying it doesn't make sense. I think everything makes sense all the time that people do. It might not be right or good or healthy or whatever, but that comes from somewhere and we don't have to dive deep into it. But I think you're touching on something very vulnerable that is underlying, I think for both of us. I'm saying for both of us, because I relate to what you're saying, but that idea that when you do something quote unquote wrong that it can trigger that or touch on that tender place underneath of I'm not lovable if I did that thing or if I hurt somebody that I love, and you're saying it doesn't make sense. And I think that it might not be accurate or true, like if you know Yeah, irrational thought, right?

SPEAKER_01 9:17

So I'm measuring myself through irrational thought. I'm not lovable because I caused somebody to experience discomfort or I created dysregulation of myself irrationally.

SPEAKER_00 9:30

So you're calling that irrational thought because it's not accurate, it's not an accurate measure.

SPEAKER_01 9:34

Correct.

SPEAKER_00 9:34

Okay. I would use different wording. I mean, I wouldn't necessarily say it's a rational thought either, like it's that that's like very black or white, but I think that experience would you use? I at this point, I think I would say that the lens we're looking through and how we're making our interpretations about ourselves and our partner and the world is connected to our nervous system state. So if you're in a state of shutdown, if you're in that dorsal shutdown collapse state of your nervous system, then you're gonna have on what I often refer to as depression goggles, and that's going to come with the experience of I'm not lovable, right? Like again, I don't know that I would say that it's rational, but it's not irrational. You're interpreting your experience through your nervous system. I think that that's probably how I look at it mostly at this point. I think over the course of my whole career, even going back to when I just worked with kids and teens, and then of course moving forward through working with couples and adults as well, that that's connected to an old hurt, which I think is really the same thing as a nervous system experience, but I didn't always use nervous system language. So I think just saying that that feeling of if you know if I make a mistake or if I do something wrong for me, like if I'm not perfect and I don't feel lovable.

SPEAKER_01 10:42

Definitely a perfectionism trait. It's also like putting yourself in a timeout, but it's like affecting everybody. It's not even just putting yourself in a timeout.

SPEAKER_00 10:49

Can you tell me more about that?

SPEAKER_01 10:50

That's a very interesting concept. Well, you're talking, I'm talking down to myself, but you're telling yourself like behaviors that you should be doing. So you're self-criticizing, like accidents happen, but you accidentally brush into somebody and you say, Excuse me, they might say, Oh, no problem, or I'm fine, or ouch.

SPEAKER_02 11:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:09

And when they say ouch, you're just like, Oh, that's not what I wanted to do. Sure. So you become self-critical. So when somebody says ouch, that isn't something that feels good to yourself immediately because there's like an urgency. Your heart rate gets up, and you're like, Oh, um, I mean, if you don't see blood, obviously, like you're not like calling medical attention or whatever, but you blame yourself. Like, my go-to is blame, right? Obviously, there's something wrong with me because I created an ouch. It couldn't be like, oh, it was an accident. If somebody said, like, oh no, I'm fine, then you're there's some relief in that, and you can sort of self-calm. But like if somebody says ouch, you're like, you have a decision to make. Your first one is probably not the most helpful one.

SPEAKER_00 11:52

And what where does the time out piece come in?

SPEAKER_01 11:55

For me, it's a fight or flight kind of thing. So it's gonna be ouch, I let you down, I hurt you, I need to run away. It could be metaphorically or physically.

SPEAKER_00 12:04

So for you, that's that's one of the ways that it that defensiveness can come up, that self-protection can come up because when you create hurt even unintentionally, you have an old narrative that leads you towards self-blame. You didn't say self-blame, and it feels like maybe it could be blame yourself.

SPEAKER_01 12:21

For me, it could be like you're self-criticizing or you know, judging yourself. Like, how could I step into that chair to knock somebody off in our son's case?

SPEAKER_00 12:29

Right. So for you, and you mentioned this idea of perfectionism, but there's something that creates a challenge for you in just like, oh, accidents happen, and you can still say, Oh, I'm so sorry, I didn't mean to hurt you, but for you, that's not always what ends up happening. The reaction tends to be more blaming and criticizing and judging of yourself, and then that feels really bad. And so that elicits a fight or flight response, and you often will sort of flight, either literally leaving the room or I mean there's layers to it, but that is certainly an option.

SPEAKER_01 12:57

I say option, that's a possibility. The other thing is, you know, just checking in. We talked about in the other podcast that I was trying to be part of a best case scenario where there was a rupture and I felt it was a fight or flight situation, but the flight was slightly different. It was a flight of like, hey, I think it's best if I step away from this. And it was verbalized, it wasn't just like I just walked away. Right, right. It was in my mind, that was my best option because I didn't feel like there was anything that could have smoothed over what we were both experiencing. So it there's variations in that moment. So I could be, you know, knock into your chair and you say, ouch, and I could check in. And if you say I'm good, then maybe I can make a healthier decision to just not, you know, double check, like, are you okay, or are you okay, or are you okay, or I'm a terrible person, I'm a terrible person or a person, or I let this happen. How could I let this happen? But there's some nuance into what path you take in these moments.

When Hurts Go Unspoken

SPEAKER_00 13:54

Yeah, yeah, as you're talking, a couple of things are coming to mind. One, I think that you hurt your partner or someone you love, even unintentionally. There's so much room for it to become about a self-criticism or a self-blame, and that it makes so much sense when people go into that self-protective mode, whether it's shut down and collapse and avoidance, or whether it's in that fight or flight mode, because then people can certainly fight back and attack back towards their significant other, or it could be a self-attack, or they can run and leave the room, or whatever it is. But to me, it feels so understandable, like it makes so much sense that those processes can happen and that they get in the way of reconnecting. And those behaviors also then can get misinterpreted. Like, why are you acting that way or why are you doing that? And I know for myself, I absolutely historically don't feel this way as much anymore, although it still comes up sometimes. But I used to often feel like you were making it about yourself and not having awareness into all of the layers of things that were happening for you. And now understanding more about what's happening for you, it doesn't take away the impact that whatever happened on me, but it does make me more curious on what your intentions were and the impact the situation is having on you, which I think that that curiosity and empathy is definitely helpful in reconnecting. So that's one thing that I'm thinking about. There's so much room for a little ouch to become a big disconnect or like a big rupture. But and that's why the importance of repair and really understanding what repair means and being able to get back to a connected safe place, like hey, maybe they maybe there is room for a behavior change, or maybe uh one or both of us need to do things in a new way, or maybe we just need to hear each other a little bit differently. However, if we're working in partnership and we're working together and there's a trust like we can figure this out together. And then the other thought that it reminded me of was you said a long time ago, a few years back at this point, something like you realized a shift in our conflicts or in the ruptures that happened, that you said, I'm gonna slightly misquote you, I'm trying to remember, but you said something like how you used to experience them as like this huge car crash, like the car went off the road and it was in flames. And now, more of the time, you are experiencing them as kind of like you just hit like a pothole. Do you remember saying that? So as I hear you, it's like if you're thinking that it's your fault, again, like I totally relate to this. I know like not feeling lovable and feeling like I am messed up, and so the whole world is gonna end kind of feeling, even though it's really not going to, and I know that, but that's like a dorsal thought or a sympathetic thought with those goggles on. And our nervous system state can sort of distort our reality in a way that it feels really real. But if we're thinking there's something wrong with us, we're not lovable, that's like a car crash. That's painful, that's really painful, and it can create huge rupture and disconnect in a relationship. And for us, I think it used to go on for weeks and even into months that that would happen and the repair process would take so long to actually occur. However, when we have been more grounded more of the time, feeling safe enough more of the time, then the same exact conflicts might just be that little bump in the road.

SPEAKER_01 16:59

I have like 40 thoughts after you said all those things. Give me a question. That's why there's the dialogue. So you have the opportunity to share what your experience was and the other person's. Otherwise, in my experience, was I thought we were good for like weeks, and meanwhile, you felt unresolved hurts for weeks. And then when there was another rupture, it would compound, and I would be like, What just happened? I thought we were good, and I thought we were making progress and building in the right direction, and meanwhile, you weren't experiencing the same thing, and then we would go on our own thought processes of either unhealthiness or can we be happy in this relationship? Maybe it's easier to just get a divorce. I don't know if I can take this anymore. And I'd be like, What do you mean? I thought we were good.

SPEAKER_00 17:45

What you're saying is so incredibly valuable, and I think it's just reminding me how grateful I am that you can be here because it's easy for me to forget that you were having a different experience. And what your experience is, I think is as a relationship therapist, I've worked with so many partners who have shared exactly what you're talking about. Like, I thought everything was okay, and the other partners, like, absolutely not, and how challenging that is. And again, I think you're right, there's so many different avenues we can go into, but to kind of just for today's conversation, I'm thinking like tying it back to this idea of I didn't mean to, because as you said, that I can, it's hard for me to remember details, but I can remember the experience of holding on to a lot of hurt and anger and frustration, and and definitely contributing in a huge way to more disconnect because I would be shut down myself, like going through the motions, kind of going through life, not communicating necessarily that I was hurt or frustrated still or that a repair needed to happen.

SPEAKER_01 18:41

Yeah, and I would remember even just the the basic conversations that we could have and not knowing necessarily that you were still experiencing hurts is you used to say things like, I need to do what's good for me, which makes sense. Like everybody should. That's where it sort of starts, and then you can kind of get into your your relationship stuff. Yeah. But what we were doing in our relationship sort of prevented you from going outside of just like doing what's best for you.

SPEAKER_00 19:06

Yeah, I definitely think that. I mean, again, there's so many different layers here that we can pull apart, but there was definitely years of our life where I consciously, by choice, put a lot of energy and effort into our relationship and into supporting you through your hard times. And I myself didn't know how to balance my own self-care with relational care and care of you, which I think are two different things, taking care of the relationship and supporting you as a partner, as well as being a mom and having a business and a life and friends and all of those other things. I didn't always know how to have that balance. And again, there's so much there, but I didn't always know how to bring up a hard topic with you. And I I feared that if I tried to uh address that, whatever the that was, that because there were so many frustrations on my side that it would land poorly for you is another criticism, another judgment, another blame. And so I withheld a lot of that, but there was no repair that happened. It just continued the rupture. And then you were thinking, like, okay, she's acting fine enough, and so things must be fine, but there wasn't communication around that.

SPEAKER_01 20:10

Yeah, I mean, it's hard to be vulnerable when you're hurt.

"I'm Sorry" And Accountability

SPEAKER_00 20:13

Yeah, yeah. And I think that that connects to the idea too of like not saying I'm sorry, to be honest. I don't really my own perspective is that I do say I'm sorry, but I think that you feel differently. Can you just speak to that? I mean, how long do we have here?

SPEAKER_01 20:25

This is a whole nother episode. Sure, you want to go down here?

SPEAKER_00 20:28

Can we do it briefly?

SPEAKER_01 20:28

Yeah, I guess.

SPEAKER_00 20:29

So that this is so fascinating to me. These are conversations I don't know if we have. I mean, we do in part have. I agree.

SPEAKER_01 20:36

I just don't know what there's so many things I want to say. The thing about I'm sorry is really in my mind is accountability. And in my relationship with you, it just felt like I was constantly the one that had problems. And in our relationship, I was the one who always had to feel like they were improving or causing conflict or messing up or bad. Mm-hmm. Sure. So the dynamic was I was the one that was the mess up and I had to fix things. And fixing means I'm sorry, which means it doesn't happen again, and apologizing for myself and the messed up one or the bad one. And not to necessarily balance things out, but when there were times where there was conflict in the other direction, it wasn't to say, like, oh, I'm pointing out that my intention wasn't to point out your fault, just more of the accountability. My idea of the relationship was always to meet halfway in those moments and saying, like, hey, that hurt me too. Like, I get hurt sometimes. My imprint of you and my thoughts in the relationship was, you know, Trisha never messes up, and Trisha always feels like she's the right one, and I'm the wrong one. So, how are you supposed to meet halfway with somebody with that vision of that person in the relationship? It was an unhelpful vision, but I'm just fighting for the relationship balance at at those moments because it just felt like I was always in the place of having to create resolution. And when I'm hurt, it doesn't seem to matter as much.

SPEAKER_00 21:58

I'm very curious about that. And I think that we should talk more about this both potentially on microphone and being recorded and also not because I think that a few thoughts come to mind. First thought is that I think that I did definitely develop a resistance to saying I'm sorry, I'm being accountable in certain situations. One, because I felt like I was regularly evaluating myself and trying to improve. And so I felt like there was to me, and this certainly could have been a misinterpretation and an incorrect narrative or an inaccurate narrative from your perspective. But to me, it was like, isn't it obvious that I'm working on myself? Like, I don't think that I'm perfect by any means. And I had experiences where if I expressed something like, oh yes, I understand my role in this and I'm sorry, or even without the um official I'm sorry, but like I see my role in this, then sometimes felt that your experience was like, okay, great. And then your self-reflection suffered. Like, you know, you didn't you're like, oh, thanks for thanks for acknowledging that, moving on now. And then we were kind of caught in that loop again of like me feeling frustrated with you and having that accrual of frustrations and disappointments building. And so there's like this dynamic that definitely existed there from my perspective. And yet there's also this other thought that I'm very aware of as you were describing your experience, that I also know that dynamic of me being the fixer or the helper or the one, I don't know, who was healthier.

SPEAKER_01 23:27

Yeah, the present one, the one who's self-reflecting.

SPEAKER_00 23:29

Yeah, like compared to comfort in. Right. But compared to you, like that's an old story of mine and an old dynamic that, like in a manga, we call that an unconscious contract that I kind of carried with me from my childhood experience that I was the helper and the fixer and the one who knew what to do. And so then you, in that case, had to be the one who was the problem, needed to be fixed, you know, all of that. And so I'm really sitting, kind of holding both of those, and maybe it's maybe even more than two realities in there, but all of those realities that I think were intertwined and complex and kind of working together to keep us in that dynamic for a long time.

SPEAKER_01 24:03

But are we talking about present or past? Or are we doing both? I mean, the emphasis here is really the dialogue gives an opportunity to give each other's perspective. But we're also reflecting on what is happening during our life experience, our shared life experience and relationship and parenting. So, like, where are we trying to focus on right now? Are we trying to share like our history or how the dialogue helps, or just kind of like in general? I think like across the board.

What Repair Looks Like Now

SPEAKER_00 24:30

I think that it's I I don't have like a specific goal in mind. I think all of it matters. I think the importance of the dialogue or the helpfulness of the dialogue is really valuable. I think that the idea for me for the episode today is focusing on repair. And for me, I think it is a little bit of the evolution. And that's probably where I would like wrap up like this episode, because I think that and really building both sides, because I think that not building both sides like as a debate, but like building awareness and empathy for both sides of our experience is key for me because you were hurting, and that's why you would say, like, I didn't mean to, or whatever the exact words that you said if they weren't, I didn't mean to, but you were having an internal experience that was really painful, and I think that that's important, right? Even though I was like, hey, pay attention to my impact. So I think we've covered a lot of ground today, and there's so much more to cover. Relationships are rich and complex, and the repair process and what creates disconnection and what helps partners move back towards connection, I think is a vast topic. And so certainly we can't cover all of it today. But I think that my goal for today was to address, I think of it as the evolution of our repair process, because we were not very good at repair process for a very long time. And I think that we're far better now, far better, like light years better than we used to be. And in listening to what we talked about today and thinking about what I've been talking about over the last few episodes, one of the big concepts I've been talking about is that intention matters, but impact really is what matters. If someone says that there was negative impact on them, then that needs to be addressed because then there was a relationship rupture. They don't feel safe to be in the relationship or move towards their partner. They feel that they need to protect themselves and that that creates more and more rupture. And again, as we're talking about, that can accrue over time. However, in all the moments where either you or me, quote unquote, didn't apologize, if I felt like whatever was getting in my way of saying I'm sorry, or if you felt like you didn't intend to hurt me and whatever was happening, the reality is that both of us were experiencing very real and valid hurts and pains internally that were perpetuating the disconnect. Does that make sense? And even in this conversation, and we've we've talked about different pieces of this with in specific situations over many years, I'm still being reminded of how important it is to not just assume that I understand your perspective, even if I have a good idea of it, and I often do have a good idea of your perspective at this point. We've had a lot of conversations, but there is no better way to know your perspective than to hear it. And I think that this feels important in the repair process to really be curious about the other person's experience. I think it's always important, and that is in fact what the dialogue helps you do.

SPEAKER_01 27:08

Well, it takes you out of your own mind a little bit because you're talking about action and impact. So if you're on either side of that, you have to be curious, otherwise, you're gonna defend and be defensive.

SPEAKER_00 27:19

Yeah, and like sitting here talking to you, it's like making me even more curious and thinking about where we are today. And maybe we can kind of just before we wrap up, think about that. What's your experience of our repair process today? Because we have been talking about a lot of things that span over literally two decades of our lives together. But today, how do you feel about our current repair process, what it looks like, what's different, what we do better, hopefully.

SPEAKER_01 27:41

What uh I think being timely and recognizing what's going on, either I'm having a reaction or I'm creating impact rather than holding on. I think being confident in communicating that. I mean, you can't discuss everything, that would be exhausting, right? You just can't. But when it's really meaningful to you, it might the more you think about it, it's it might build up to something, or the more you think about it, you might say it's not as impactful as you initially thought it was. So just finding the balance in time we've improved upon.

SPEAKER_02 28:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:11

And importance, like we know we're important to each other, but we're showing how important we are through our resolution.

SPEAKER_00 28:17

Hmm, that's beautiful. Can you say more about that? That really touched my heart.

SPEAKER_01 28:21

So if I nudge your chair accidentally, of course I'm not trying to hurt you. Like we know that. Right. If I was trying to hurt you, that's a whole nother level of there's a lot of relief in knowing that your family and your partner know that you have no ill intent. So then you have a clear head to see your impact on others and be curious on their perspective and create a repair.

SPEAKER_00 28:45

Yeah, I think, you know, as again, as you're saying it, it's it's so interesting to have these conversations because it's really bringing up a lot of important perspective for what feels like important perspective to me. I think that that's really one of the things that I've I've noticed about the evolution of our repair process and why I said that what you said earlier touched my heart because the way I heard, and I won't be able to quote you directly, I have to go back and listen to the recording, but what you actually said, the exact words. But as I heard it, you said something about how knowing the importance, I think, of both partners, like how important we are to each other, helps move towards resolution or helps move towards the repair process. And I think that that's exactly what was so hard for so many years, because I don't think that we were not important to each other at all. I think we were both very we, I think we've always been very important to each other for many, many years. But when either of us go into that self-blame, self-criticism, self-judgment place, or if we're judging, criticizing, blaming the other person and we're in those dysregulated, self-protective states, you forget you're important to the other person and you forget that even sometimes how important they are to you. And that's the essence of rupture and disconnection. I hear you saying that. And so when you said what you said before, I think if the reason it touched my heart is because we have in fact come so far that we've been able to maintain that sense of we are both important to one another and be able to stay safe enough and more grounded and more in that ventral state of our nervous system, the lens I look through now, that connection is possible and that's when repair is possible. And every little conflict doesn't turn into this giant flaming car wreck that we have more and more experiences that are just kind of a bump in the road and it doesn't obliterate everything and the whole connection that we have. And I think that's what I've experienced. And hearing you say it just felt really sweet because we've in fact come such a very long way. And I'm glad that we have figured out how to reconnect over all of these years through a lot of disconnection. It's been very worth the journey, and I'm really happy to be able to share it here today and hopefully help other people move towards the ability to remember that they're important to themselves and that they're important to their partner, and to remember that their partner is important. And of course, you know, some people will break up or get divorced, and that might make sense for them. But I think a lot of people are just struggling with a lot of dysregulation and a lot of self-protection. And that's really kind of the basis of everything I do is to be able to help people feel safe enough in relationship so that they can experience connection like we have at this point, particularly in our lives. Anything you want to say in closing?

SPEAKER_01 31:21

I mean, there is no closing. This is just an evolution, and we have a milestone mindset instead of getting a new rental car every single time because it crashes and burns, like we just put some miles on the car instead of crashing and burning. Yeah, it's nice to not crash and burn so often.

SPEAKER_00 31:37

We still crash and burn a little bit, but I think what you said before, like about being timely, that's something I see also a huge shift in. One or both of us is like, hey, this feels bad. Disconnection is not where I want to be, and I don't want to stay here. And we move towards repair much more quickly than we used to. Thanks for being here today, and I look forward to our conversations between now and next month, but also I look forward to our conversation on the podcast next month.

Closing Invitation And Next Steps

SPEAKER_01 32:01

Well, as usual, thanks for inviting me.

SPEAKER_00 32:03

As our time comes to a close, I ask you to keep listening for just a few more moments because I want to thank you for showing up today, and I want to leave you with an invitation as you hit stop and move back out into the world on your own unique wellness journey. In order to move from where you are today to the place where you want to be, the path may seem long or unclear or unknown. And I want you to know that if that seems scary or daunting or downright terrifying or anything else, that is totally okay. Know that you do not have to create the whole way all at once. We don't travel a whole journey in one stride. And that is why my invitation to you today is to take a step, just one. Any type, any size, in any direction. It can be an external step that can be observed or measured, or it could be a step you visualize taking in your mind. It can be a step towards action or towards rest or connection or self-care or whatever step makes sense to you. I invite you to take a step today because getting to a place that feels better, more joyful, more connected than the place where you are today is possible for everyone, including you, and even when depression is in your bed. If today's episode resonated with you, please subscribe so you can be notified when each weekly episode gets released. I encourage you to leave a review and reach out to me on social media at trish.sanders.lcsw. Your feedback will help guide future episodes, and I love hearing from you. Also, please share this podcast with anyone who you think may be interested or who may get something from what I have shared. Until the next time we connect, take care of yourself and take a step.