Are You Emotionally Available For Your Team?

In this powerful and thought-provoking conversation, Jenelle welcomes leadership coach and former CS leader Norma Serena to explore an often overlooked but crucial leadership question: Are you emotionally available for your team? Together, they unpack what it truly means to show up for your people, not just in body, but in mind, heart, and presence.

From defining the difference between being physically present versus emotionally engaged, to breaking down why so many leaders unintentionally disconnect, Norma and Jenelle dive deep into the reality of today’s hustle-driven workplace culture. They explore practical ways leaders can build trust, foster empathy, and regulate their own nervous system to create safe, empowering environments. The episode also offers tactical advice for individual contributors on how to advocate for their own needs when their leader isn’t emotionally available.

Key takeaways include:
✅ Why your team craves emotional presence, not just leadership checklists
✅ Simple practices to regulate your stress before 1:1s and meetings
✅ How reframing your mindset can align work with your personal values
✅ Practical breathwork tools to reset and refocus
✅ Tips for individual contributors navigating absent leadership

Whether you’re a seasoned manager, a new leader, or an individual contributor wanting more from your leadership experience, this episode will inspire you to bring more humanity, awareness, and connection into every interaction. As always, remember: transformation starts from within.

Resources

• Connect with Norma: https://www.linkedin.com/in/normaserena/
• Norma's website: https://intentionalleadership.ca/
• https://intentionalleadership.ca/#freeResources
• Link to book a 1h reset call with Norma: https://calendly.com/normahogan/intentional-leadership-adhoc-1-1 
• What people can expect: https://www.linkedin.com/posts/normaserena_if-you-were-looking-for-a-sign-to-take-a-activity-7336395767084982274-I99k)

Transcript

SPEAKER_01: 0:09

Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of Friday Feelings, where we turn emotions into power, vulnerability into strength, and remind you to feel everything, fear nothing, and transform your life. I am your host, Janelle Friday. And today I'm going to ask the question: Are you emotionally available for your team? This is specifically for leaders that have individuals that report up into you and talking about how being emotionally available is something that you should be mindful of because the individuals that report up to you are looking for that kind of leadership. And today's guest, I'm really excited to introduce today's guest, Ms. Norma Serena. Norma, I mean, man, I just cannot say thank you enough for coming to spend time with me and being willing to talk about such an important topic today. So thanks for being here. Great to be here. Thanks for having me. Yeah, absolutely. So when we're talking about emotional availability, it's presence, vulnerability, and emotional intelligence that creates stronger human-centered leadership and relationships. So maybe tell us a little bit about you and why this topic is something that you're passionate about, why we're here to talk about it today.

SPEAKER_00: 1:19

Yeah, absolutely. So I was in customer success for over a decade. And I uh I believe like stress and things like that are kind of built into CS almost. Like you're sort of the capshall, the newest seat at the table, you're still proving yourself. And the other part of it is that almost every leader I've talked to in CS, they're very empathetic. They're really good at being there with for people. They they lead with that sort of emotional presence awareness and presence. Um, but it can be almost, it can, it can take over. It can become like I had it where like people from other departments who come to me and I was like, but I'm not even your leader. They're like, Yeah, but you listen. And that's wonderful, but it's then it's like it takes up so much of your time. And and because we're naturally empathetic, I think we want to help and we want to be there for people, but then it just it's it also gets to the point of like, but who's taking care of me? And if unless it's you, it's it can become really challenging.

SPEAKER_01: 2:16

Yeah, well, I think um, you know, we're kind of in a time of life where there's a lot of stress triggers all around us, right? Um, and when you're a leader, right, it's easy to show up on a call in a one-on-one and say, all right, you know, how can I help you? What's top of mind? And these are the things I'm concerned about or we want to work on. Um, but that's a physical presence. It's not an emotional state. So can you help us understand the difference between, all right, I'm a leader and I just show up for my team and I do one-on-ones and I run our weekly calls, but I don't really understand what you mean by emotionally present.

SPEAKER_00: 2:50

Yes, I think that's such a good question. So I think to me, really meaning being emotionally present or available, it means to be present in the moment and what's actually happening right now. So not thinking about the next call, not planning your to-do list, but just really fully be present with what you're doing with the person you're interacting with. And that is really challenging to do. I mean, you see it at like people can't wait five minutes, they take out their phone, or and people really notice that too. If you're already mentally somewhere else uh checking off the next thing, it just doesn't create that, you know, trust. And I think um it also means to be able to sit with whatever comes up, right? So it might be discomfort because you are actually kind of stressed, and it's like I really don't have time for this one-on-one, or someone else might have big emotions, you know, or planning on that, so and you might want to immediately jump in and fix it, but just being able to be present with all of that, and uh that really takes a lot of practice because we we don't really learn that not in school or the job, and it requires also for you to know how to regulate your own nervous system and help others to do the same. So a lot of self-awareness needed that I also don't think is something that's taught a lot and is uncomfortable, so people don't want to go there.

SPEAKER_01: 4:08

You hit on a lot of things that I feel like we could white rabbit trail on other episodes, yes. But I mean, I think you're hitting on a key point, which is you know, it's not just enough to show up and and sort of halfway three quarters listen to what your team member is saying because in the back of your mind, well, I have this deck that I'm presenting for the leadership team tomorrow, and I have three more one-on-ones after the fact, and my phone is going off the hook and my emails are overflow. I mean, right, we kind of all live in this hustle culture that tells us we should be constantly moving and busy and doing things. And I think that that's something I know it's a topic that I've I um I'm passionate about because I think it's a lie. I think when we are so busy because it makes us feel good to be busy, we miss the purpose of these types of relationships. And from a leadership perspective, I think it's um there's an old Bible verse that says, from the abundance of the heart, the mouse speaks. And it speaks to it's not the words you say, right? What you're thinking and feeling internally in your mind and in your heart comes out of you, even if you don't say, right? So I'm sure you've been in a one-on-one as a individual contributor reporting to a manager, and while their face says they're talking to you or listening to you, you can see all of the signals that none of that is actually, they're not really listening, right? Um, so I'm curious, is there a story that you can share about a time when you were an individual contributor and you knew that your leader wasn't there for you? How did that impact you? And how do you, as an individual, if you we're gonna have a lot of listeners who are in that role, they're an individual contributor and they have a leader who is not emotionally present or or able to be there for them. So do you have kind of a story to relate to that?

SPEAKER_00: 5:51

Yes, unfortunately, I have multiple. Um, but yeah, and I think that we're also not alone because again, everyone's stressed and they try to be compassionate and to see the other side, but it's it doesn't feel good. And um, I've definitely been in a situation where I felt invisible and like a burden, right? Like you feel bad asking for support when you need it because you you know I'm just adding more to your workload now and it doesn't feel good. And so at times I would then go and figure things out on my own, and that's not bad per se, but then often times, specifically this one thing I can think of. I had sort of the seagull manager, you know, the like one that swoops in craps all over the place and flies back out. And um, it was super demoralizing, right? Because then it's like, okay, well, you didn't support me when I needed feedback or you know, so I figured out on my own, but now you're like tearing that apart. So all the work that I did was for nothing. Yeah. Um, and uh yeah, I think it's super demoralizing, the opposite of empowering, and you end up also breaking a bit of the trust because it's like, well, you were supposed to be here for me and help me with this. That's what leaders are supposed to do. And I think that's another part of this, is that you can't really build trust without presence. And without like, I think trust is a critical component of leadership because you know, anyone could tell people what to do, but not everyone can like really build like an environment of trust where people will sort of you know follow you and bring this together kind of mentality, uh, which I think is super critical for leadership.

SPEAKER_01: 7:25

Yeah. How would you though? I, you know, I'm I'm trying to put my my uh devil's cap on here, right? And say, well, what about the individuals who say that means I have to build trust, which means I'm getting too personal, and I can't afford to make those kinds of personal relationships with people.

SPEAKER_00: 7:43

I would ask why. Why can't they afford that? Um, sometimes we have those like sort of beliefs that we think like we shouldn't. And I mean, there is such a thing as like I believe in being professional at work too. So, you know, there is such a thing as oversharing, absolutely. But to take a personal interest in people and care personally, to me, that's not that's not like you know, unprofessional. I think it's actually really important and they don't have to become your best friends, but I think if you must care personally for them to feel like you, if you ever give them feedback, you mean it like constructively and all that. Um, whereas if you just I don't know, if you just if you don't make an effort, it just it shows. And it should be genuine too. Like I think people also know when it's like, okay, I'm gonna ask my three questions to make me sound like I care. It's like, well, no, people can tell. You have to genuinely care. And if you don't, honestly, what are you doing in leadership? Because if you don't care about the people you lead, you shouldn't be there.

SPEAKER_01: 8:44

Well, I I think I think our culture prizes stoicism and composure um and the appearance that I have it all together. Um, I also think, too, our culture believes that strong emotions do not belong in the workplace. And I am someone who's trying to tear that apart because it's not true. Um, human beings from a human to human, right? We there's no such thing as a conversation between two people where emotions are not present, right? And emotions are always personal. So, how do you how let's let's just play the devil's advocate here? Let's say I'm the leader that you're coaching. I'm like, I just don't have time to be emotionally present for all the people that need things from me. So, what how what are you telling me I should be doing differently?

SPEAKER_00: 9:30

Right. Yes, I mean, we would definitely look at what is a typical week look like for you and where can you um maybe shape other things off, right? There might be meetings that can be emails and things like that. A lot of standing meetings are like, do we really need this? But the one-on-ones is the last thing I would ever skip. You might want to reduce the cadence if you find like, okay, if you have like, you know, you have 10 direct reports and that's only part of your job, that's a lot. So let's see if you can do maybe every other week, but then be fully present. Um, because I really don't I don't think that's a good place to skip out on. Um, and then just you know, like not everyone needs the same level of support too. So, like a newer team member, you probably want to do it more frequently. And in one of ones, I always try to leave the agenda up to the team member. So sometimes it would be tactical things, but sometimes it'd be more like mindset things, or I'm stuck here, and just try to work through it. And again, that's that's why you're their leader, so that you can, you know, get the help them get to the next level.

SPEAKER_01: 10:35

Yeah, I had a leader. Um, I was at a corporate organization, and I loved this person, like one of my favorite people ever, but was never available. So, like when things would go wrong and I'd send an email and say, Hey, I need your approval or I need you to get back to me, and then I hear nothing, right? So you have those leaders that they're amazing people and I really want to spend more time, but there's no time to give. And then you have those other individuals who will come to a one-on-one and and kind of sound prepared and kind of sound like they're interested. But then when you that then I would start to bring up this thing is happening in my life that's causing me to maybe not be at a hundred percent, and then the conversation shifts. So I so I'm curious, you know, I think we're talking to a lot of people, and hopefully a lot of people are listening to this that are like, that sounds really great, Norma. It's all well and good. But I think that I'm emotionally present for my people. How do I know if I'm an emotionally present leader or not? What are some of the key, I would say, characteristics of a leader who is very self-aware, very present, very emotionally available for the people that report to them.

SPEAKER_00: 11:44

Yes. I mean, it's it's such an important topic. And again, I think it starts starts with sort of looking at um if you think you're emotionally available, that's great, but maybe ask your team members if they would feel the same way. And you can only do that, you can only ask for feedback from your team members because it's it's vulnerable if you model kind of vulnerability as well, and if you have created an environment where people can be honest. So, for example, in I would always ask for feedback in for myself in um when we do like quarterly reviews, and it's like you have to review me as well. And if you just hear like really great things, I'm like, hmm, let's dig into this. Are you afraid of to say the real thing? Or what's going on? Because pretty sure last time I checked, I wasn't perfect. Um, and so I think that's sort of like a key a key signal is nobody tells you anything. That either means they're so fully bought in to everything you do, or more likely there might be a trust issue, or actually some fear around being honest. And you know what you were saying earlier about I think a lot of people are scared to be their full selves at work because maybe it burnt them in the past, or yeah, they have this sort of notion that it doesn't belong in the workplace, but we're human beings no matter where we go, and we have to um that's also the great strength of it. We can connect with people on that level, and you know, I always like not to go down the rabbit hole of AI, but I don't want to be managed by artificial intelligence, I want to be managed by a human who has real emotions, um, you know, and maybe we'll actually get to that, who knows? But in the meantime, let's talk about it. I would want, right? So that we have that like real connection from person to person. And it doesn't mean we have to share intimate details like that don't maybe belong in the workplace, but it's again, it's a care personly aspect.

SPEAKER_01: 13:40

But I think it's important because you're kind of touching on it, which is like there's an there's a version of overshare, and I agree. You don't spend all your time one-on-one talking about personal stuff. Although I've had a leader that did that, and then it was like, well, I could have used this 30 minutes to actually get work done versus talking about the remodeling of your house. Yes. Okay, but let's step aside. So I think um oversharing is when something drastic happens. So if you have a team member whose spouse just died, or they've had a significant loss, or you think about people that lost their homes and hurricanes or things like that, right? There has to be a place for me as the employee to come to you as my manager and say, hey, this thing happened and it's scary and it's awful. And I don't want to give you gore details, but you need to understand where I'm coming from because I don't know what to do. I don't want to lose my job. So if there's no trust, if there's no real relationship because you've not been emotionally available, I'm not gonna be able to feel safe coming to you with those things, thinking that you're gonna be able to hear me and understand and offer empathy. I mean, is that a fair statement?

SPEAKER_00: 14:48

Absolutely. And you hear these stories where people have awful things happen and you know, they're like in the hospital and they're like, oh, when can you come back to work? And I'm like, you're dealing with a person here. That's awful. And so I think to me, this is also what you know, I was literally talking about this today in in uh in one of my posts about how empathy is kind of misunderstood too. So some people think of empathy as commiserating. We're just gonna like, you know, I'm gonna hold your hand while you weep. And that's not really what that is to me. So when I kind of in the leadership role, I try to coach with intention. And what I mean at that is like I try to understand really what's going on. So one, you know, a couple of the questions is like, you know, what's what's the big challenge here for you? Obviously, not if your house caught fire, that's a different story. Then it's like you probably need to tax, take some time off. But otherwise, just really try to get at the underlying sort of what's the what's actually the issue and what's the challenge for you here. And and then to me, empathy also always means like you know, compassion, like that sucks. And I might be more extreme than that, depending on what it is. Then it's like, what can I do to support you? And if it's something like at work, you know, like, oh, a team member quit, or something like that, or I messed up somewhere, it's like, what can we learn from it? Well, and how can I help you with that, right? Like, what is the what is there's always a learning in everything, right? So, what is what is the learning that we can can we we can find maybe together? Because sometimes when you're really in it emotionally, you can't think that way as well. And I think that's another important point is when you're in that fight or flight stress mode, you literally cannot think clearly because you know it's a different part of your brain that's activated. So if someone's really like hair on fire because something happened, unless they actually need some time off, the first thing I would do is try to like, let's reset here and just take a couple deep breaths. And some people be like, oh, it's boo-boo, doesn't belong in the workplace. But to me, it's like I need to reset your and my nervous system so we can actually tackle this.

SPEAKER_01: 16:48

I want to I want to pause here because you're touching on where I come in, EQ, neuroscience, all this stuff, right? And the whole this whole concept that EQ, self-awareness, breathing exercises, breath work is woo-woo. If you're listening to this podcast and you think that this is woo-woo, this is probably not the right place for you. Or I'm gonna tell you you're wrong. Because what we know to be true about your body and your brain. So I'm gonna drop some neuroscience here, is that cortisol, the stress hormone, is addictive.

SPEAKER_02: 17:20

Okay.

SPEAKER_01: 17:20

So if your life is full of stress, your brain is like it's a drug. Cortisol becomes a drug. And so when there's no stress, your brain looks for reasons to be stressed to create more cortisol that regulates you back to normal. In these moments, when there is stress, when there's emotional distress, um, your brain, because of how your your chemical flood overload is happening, it causes your body to react. And one of the primary ways we know the body indicates stress is your breathing, right? We it has been proven over and over again, my friend Sim K Bart, who does breath work coaching. We know that resetting through breath work is proven to be effective in high stress, high emotional, um, impactful moments. And so I'm gonna pause here because I would really love for you to help us understand how do you utilize breath work in your personal life and in the way that you coach and manage others.

SPEAKER_00: 18:22

Yeah, so I think that I have lots of different sort of mindfulness techniques that I utilize and have taught as well. But the breath is such a it's such a fundamental one because it's it's easy to access, it's always with you, and you can sometimes really see it almost an immediate effect. Yeah. So some of my favorite tools, um, like one of the things that I sort of call my life hack is to schedule uh meetings for 25 minutes instead of 30, and then take those five minutes to reset your nervous aesthetic breathing. And so it could either be a box breath, that's where you breathe in for four, and then you hold for four, and then you breathe out for four, and you you uh keep empty for four. And I kind of like to sometimes actually draw a square. It's great to for kids as well because it's so easy. Um, or just an equal breathing breath where you maybe breathe in for six and breathe out for six. Um, there's different ones like through the mouth and the nose, just little things like that. There's one, um, I call it the miracle breath because that's how I was taught, but um you breathe in kind of like through a straw, like this way, and that too really is cooling, um, and it just kind of resets you. And it's I did this not too long ago with someone, and she wasn't someone who's super um well aversed, let's put it that way, in mindfulness. And she said, she said it was shocking to her how like she was really nervous because it was the beginning of a group session, she had to introduce herself, and that created some social anxiety. So before we did that, we did this exercise and she said like it just she literally felt like how her anxiety sort of dissipated, and that's how powerful it is, and it's so simple, like it's just breathing. Like we just and we do it so automatically, but when you pay a little attention to it, um, yeah, so that little things like this, and that's also my one of my things that I want to do is demystify mindfulness. You don't need to sit and like you know, peacefully, quietly for an hour. I don't I can't do that, not with my brain. It's little I don't have the time for that for to do that for an hour. But even if I had the time, I would either fall asleep or I'd get restless. But it's these little moments of these pockets of breath work or yeah, counting your break. You can even just pay attention to your breath and count to 10, like little things like that, um, can be so powerful in resetting yourself again and again during the day, as opposed to the stress just building up, building up, building up.

SPEAKER_01: 20:42

Then you go get your kids and you yell at them, then you yell at your yeah, it's just it just builds, and at the end of the day, you just feel depleted because you your nervous system is just ah, well, and I think I think kind of what I try to help people see is that when you live life and it happens to you, you just let life happen to you. So you let the stress get to you, you have a busy calendar, you get through your day, you go pick up your kids, you're making dinner, you and your husband are arguing, the dogs are running them out, whatever it is. You are allowing life to happen to you. You are not in control, you are not owning your choices, your life, your time. Now, can I control whether or not a tornado hits my house tomorrow afternoon in Colorado? No, I cannot. But what I can do is I can control how I spend my time. I can control the things that I do that I know are helpful to keep me in a very positive, healthy state of mind. And so if you choose not to engage in mindfulness practices, you're basically, in essence, mentally saying, I'm gonna allow myself to be a victim because life is gonna happen to me. And I have no say, I have no control. Um, and that I that's how I lived for the first, I want to say, for, you know, for as an adult from the age of 15 to 40. That's, I just didn't know that there was any other option because the church Christian community that I grew up in kind of looked at that as woo-woo, right, off limits. It is only until I went through extreme trauma and discovered EQ, discovered neuroscience, and started to practice these things that really I was like, why isn't this basic learning at like a fifth grade level? Because it's life-changing when you really choose to embrace it. And like you said, it's little time. One of my sayings is the smallest things often result in the greatest impact.

SPEAKER_00: 22:34

Yes, yeah, totally. Right. And it is changing a little bit. Like I feel like my kids are learning some of these things in school now, in elementary school, about the zones and what feelings, and like that wasn't a thing when I was a kid. It was like, you're fine, you're fine. And we never learned that. And I think that's why we have a corporate culture where it's like you're supposed to be fine and you're supposed to just push through, and you're just, and I just don't think it's serving anyone and you know, ourselves or our teams or our families or anything. And um, and I think the part you said before about the sort of addiction to stress, that be that's part of it too. I think that we become, you know, the sort of the dra drama magnets because it's stimulating in some way, and or even the dopamine hits, right? It's like you gotta find better ways to you know reward yourself, so to speak, than all those things, because otherwise it becomes part of who you are, and it's unbelievably hard to move away from that. Well, look at what's on TV, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 23:29

For for what we watch, it's fake emotions, fake drama. Look at the news and the fear and the okay. It I mean, we are surrounded, and so it's also like do I watch the news because I want to stay up to date? Yes, I take it and I leave it, right? Take some leaves and like a buffet. Um, I love my drama shows, I love Survivor, I've never missed an episode of Survivor. Um, but I'm very aware that those are fake emotions, right? And when you really understand how you process information, I think this goes back to your point of being self-aware. Like, for instance, I can't watch anything scary. I can't because I have night terries, I have nightmares. My husband now is like, I can't even watch like a preview for a movie of like it. I can't even because I it'll give me nightmares. I'm very aware of that. And so I've safeguarded myself because I know my limitations, but sometimes we are not aware of what our limitations are. And so to bring this back to being a leader, I think there's probably a lot of leaders that are not aware that they are not emotionally present for their team.

SPEAKER_00: 24:33

Yes, yes, and and then I think the hard part is when you become aware of it, it feels like even worse for a moment. And it's too. Yes, it could, right? But it's that first moment where you're like, you're actually like ahead of most people by realizing it. And so it might feel hard in a moment, but it's actually like the moment you're like, oh wow, that is not something I do, or not something, then it's like, okay, well, what can I do about it? How can I break embrace this? And it starts like leadership starts at self-leadership, so you gotta do that for yourself and hold that space for yourself. And that might be something too that lots of people are like, I've never done that, I've never really given myself the space to to see what comes up if I just you know be present with myself for a moment. And like for me too, I lived exclusively in my head for a very long time, and I think part of it is because I was paid to do that, that was my job, but then it got so far that I've like, I couldn't tell if I was hungry, tired, what did I need? It was just like, no, no, my brain was in charge the whole time, and then I felt so depleted, and I ended up having health issues, but also this is where you feel sort of like, what's the point of it all? And you feel really like emotionally depleted too, because you're just like yeah, your brain's just sharp, but that it's just not sufficient, and so the breath too is such a great anchor that way because he really connects your mind to your body and just see what what's going on in there, and yeah, then once you're present sort of in your body, that you can be present in your mind as well. I think it's such a important part to take you back out of that.

SPEAKER_01: 26:13

Yeah, and I I was also thinking too about how you talked about empathy. Um, and I think empathy is a buzzword, especially. I mean, you and I both know in customer success, empathy is uh a word that we use a lot to make ourselves feel good, I think about ourselves. But when I look at that from a leadership perspective, right, I I've had a lot of conversations with people where they share something and I'm like, I don't get that. I don't get how you can think that way. I don't get how that can be important to you because that's not how I was raised to believe. And what I've realized in the last several years, as I've had to have empathy for myself most of the time, right, that I've had to overcome is that empathy is very simple when we break it down. So I want to break it down and have you help confirm right that we're on the right track. So empathy is not, man, I went through that. I know exactly how you feel. That's really difficult. I'm gonna be here for you. But no, that's not true. Because what is the truth? You will never understand what someone else goes through. You could both go through the exact same movie experience and have completely different experiences and outcomes, right? So empathy is about hearing someone's story and saying, I know how it feels to be afraid. I know how it feels to be disappointed, I know how it feels to feel like everything is lost and you don't know where to, right? I know how it feels because you felt those emotions at some point in your life. We all have, right? So if that's truly what empathy is, then um, Norma, help us. Let's let's redefine empathy from a leadership perspective for leaders who are overworked, overbooked, overstimulated, too high of expectations, under overpromising, underdelivering. They have multiple people that report to them and they simply struggle because these kinds of talks, real, honest, deep emotions, feel overwhelming when everything else around me is out of control. So if let's just do a little simple coaching exercise right now of if I'm the leader coming to you saying, well, this is my life. I don't know how you think I'm supposed to make myself more available and be more empathetic. Let's offer some real-world practical breakdowns of okay, how do we go about building that empathy muscle then?

SPEAKER_00: 28:24

Yeah. So I would start um again, like if the 101s feel overwhelming and emotional, it's not a lack of empathy to try to break it down and say, you know, if you're not like all if it's like super obvious to you what emotion is underlying it. You can even just go there and say, like, so how does that make you feel? And if they're like, well, it makes me feel afraid, then you were like, okay, I know what that means. I don't, I know what that's like. So even if I can't relate to exactly what's going on, um, I can relate to the emotion, like you said. So I you can kind of just learn some questions to kind of dig a little bit deeper and try to really understand, yeah, the emotion behind it. And the other thing I really like to do with people, um, there's two other exercises. One is around a bit of an energy audit. So looking at like in your regular week, what gives you energy and what drains you, and of the things that you know drain you, what can you sort of either delegate or reframe in a way that makes it helpful for you? Um, because I think a lot of times we we have we do too many things. Um, we don't do any of them well because of that. We do things that don't energize us, and of course, it's you know, we're not just gonna be able to do for the fun things, like that's called work, but we're also often in CS, I find not good at communicating boundaries and say, well, this is too much. Like if I have a team of 10 and I'm also have the biggest book and this, those are multiple jobs. So if you want me to do all of those well, well, then you need to pay me three times as much because then I'll do nothing else in my life. Um, so that's part of it too. And then another exercise I like to do with people is to kind of come back to their core values, and that's in part too because I think we lose ourselves sometimes in our in our work or anywhere, and then we're kind of feeling depleted or just sort of this like midlife crisis cut of moment of like, what's it all for? But to do a values exercise where you come back to like what's actually important to me, and really, really be honest about it. Like, no one else is ever gonna look at this. It's not what you're supposed to be important to you, what it actually is, because often then you find these like, well, this meeting really irks me or whatever because it doesn't sit well with me because of my values, and that way you can kind of start to clean up off things as well, especially in the leadership role, right? You have some flexibility around these things often, um, and just kind of bring more into what matters to you and you know, get rid of some things that don't, because we also have this thing where you think we have to be able to do it all and we have to do it all, and we're not allowed to set a boundary because somehow we're devaluing ourselves that way, but ultimately that is a recipe for burnout, and you're not helping anyone, especially yourself, if you are consistently taking on too much.

SPEAKER_01: 31:18

What happens if my core values don't align with where my job is or where my company is, but I can't afford to quit?

SPEAKER_00: 31:25

You can always find within that, like where you know, there might be like um some reshuffling you can do. Maybe there's maybe there's you know, like for me, it was like um I like the sort of the concept of ikigu, right? So like your purpose, sort of like what you're good at, what the world needs, uh, what you can get paid for. And what's the last one? I can't remember now, but um, but but sort of for me, I I've been there before whereas I'm like, I'm not oh what am I passionate about? And I've been there, I was like, I'm not really passionate about like just making other people money, for example, in CS. But what am I passionate about? Again, it's a reframe. It's like I am passionate about supporting my customers to have a good everyday life and making their lives simpler with our solution. I am passionate about making their lives better because then, you know, their kids are happier and they are happy. Like it's just their teams are happier. So that's what matters. So it's not really about like if you know, oh yeah, it's ultimately about money, but that might not motivate me enough. So it's just kind of trying to find that reframe and then focus on that too. So like my customer conversation could really maybe very much be around how can I make your life easier, as opposed to how can I make your boss more money that you might, they might not even care about either, because it's like they're a lay layer down. Um, and just find like ways to reframe things. I mean, and then that's also probably, you know, kind of a good time to think, okay, maybe I want to look for something else, or um, you know, we're also not as stuck as we think we are. I know it's a scary economy and all, but I think ultimately we're all better off if we're in a place that really, you know, if we're all like living our values and our living our purpose, I think that's overall better for everyone. Um, but in the meantime, try to see if you can find reframes, right? It's like what what what actually does matter to you within that and then really corn in on that.

SPEAKER_01: 33:13

Yeah, I love that. And I love how you're the word reframe is heavily used in EQ for a reason because if you have an invasive or difficult thought come in, we reframe that thought, we reframe intentions, we reframe purposes. Um, but I'm curious, um, because I want to shift to an individual contributor question, but before I do that, I I want to kind of um put a put a frame around this leadership example that you set for us. So if there's a leader that's listening to this call that's like, I want to do everything you said, but that's a lot to take on at one time, where do I even start? So, Norma, what's one thing that right now a leader can do that will put them on this path of being more mindful and working to become emotionally available for their team?

SPEAKER_00: 34:03

Yes, and so again, like that hack that I sort of mentioned earlier, that's one thing that I usually tell people when they come to me. It's like change all the meetings that you own to be shorter. So it can be if they're if they're an hour, they might be 50 minutes. Um, if they're 30 minutes, it might be 25 minutes, because no one really cares that you're shutting it down five or 10 minutes early. And then use that time to reset yourself. And at first, I find my meditation or mindfulness can be, or even breathwork can be very sort of scary. So there's a ton of good guided content. I I want to say, including mine, I don't know if it's good, but it's free and it's out there, um, that is just a few minutes long. That like I have like stuff specifically before sales calls, before customer calls, before call with your teams, and just reset and get yourself in a different frame of mind. Because, like everything, it is a muscle, right? You that you gotta do the reps to strengthen it and it will become more natural and it will become more um just habitual. You gotta just, you know, yeah, do the reps, get the new tracks sort of in. Um, so I'd say start there with like just changing your meeting cate and your meeting length and use that time more productively. That would be a massive swap because if you are about to go on a cut on a 101 and you're already like hair and fire because of the things and you you've been putting out fires all day, then you know, forget it. You're not gonna be present. It's almost better to say, hey, today's not a good day, can we reschedule? than to do it stressed like this. Um, but if you can have 10 minutes before, where you can, you know, grab yourself a tea and then do some, you know, a guided meditation around breathing, for example, you will automatically be in a way better state, and they will feel that because a lot of it is still sort of subconscious, it's your body language. Um, and you'll be, I think you'll be amazed with what you can do. And another little tip that I have is scandalous, take a lunch break. So I have like a guided lunch break. Um, well, it is a guided meditation around mindful eating, and it's painfully slow at first. You're like, I cannot believe I'm not eating yet because you're like looking at it and you're smelling it and things like that. But so many people in North America don't take lunch breaks, and I I was guilty of that too. But I found, especially in leadership roles, you have a bit of flexibility. You can always work another half an hour later or whenever, or you're probably already working way more than that time you're technically paid to work. So taking that like half an hour and booking it in your calendar, and I put it in as mindful lunch break. So, because I don't like personally, I didn't care if anyone like looked at it and was like, hey, what are you doing here? I'd be happy to explain that. But if you're not comfortable, you know, have a meeting with someone in there if you need to fake it. But using that time to nourish yourself mindfully, so you know no scrolling things like that, but really just focus on on the food and how it feels, and then maybe that might only take like 10-15 minutes, and then maybe do a little walk around the block or pet your dog or whatever you whatever else that feels soothing, but it has a profound effect. Like if you just do this for a week, and it doesn't even have to be every day, some days it might not work, especially in the in the short run, your calendar might be busy, but start to schedule those down the road and it makes a huge difference.

SPEAKER_01: 37:17

I love that for so many reasons. I'm gonna compare that, right? Because I'm a huge sports fan. And I would say you're not an NBA player, but if you expected your team, the Nuggets, right? We're in the playoffs, we didn't make it to the finals. If you expect them to go road trip after road trip after road trip after road trip without rest in between, and then you get mad at them for not winning. No, you you'd understand. They're exhausted, they're depleted, they're operating on empty. Why do we expect any different from ourselves? We're not an EA. However, I give my, I show up and I give my best to the best of my ability every single day. And I know that there are people that are looking to me to lead, to offer feedback, to make sure people have what they need to have to succeed. And if I'm not operating at my best, and I'm sorry, you are not operating your best. If you work 10 hours a day for five days a week, six days a week with no breaks in between, you're not fooling anybody, right? We know who those people are because they look haggard, they're busy, they're stressed. It comes across. So I love, I love, first of all, I love, I'm actually going to take your advice. I'm gonna change my meetings to not 30 to 25 minutes. I'm actually gonna do it for myself because I think it's brilliant. Two, your body needs nourishment. Yes. And if you think that you can grab a cracker here and a piece of salami there in between meetings, again, this idea of hustle culture, also the idea from leadership that, like, well, you I don't have time to take a break. But I want you to challenge, I'm gonna challenge that to say what happens when you don't take a break. Are you operating at your best? No, if you're not giving your best, then your company is not going to thrive the way they need you to be in order to thrive. So you're essentially doing the opposite of what you think you're doing. Yes. Okay, too. Okay, so I love that. If you're a leader, write it down, do it. I'm gonna do it. So now I want to shift focus before we wrap today's call and talk about if I'm an individual contributor with a leader who I know is not emotionally present and available for me. Yes, what do I do? How do I handle my day-to-day? How do I get what I need if my leader can't offer it to me?

SPEAKER_00: 39:21

Yes. Yeah, that's such a good question because I think many of us are in that role. And it's like it's one thing how you want to lead others, but how do you manage up? And to me, like the leadership skills that I teach or have trained in is leadership is more of a mindset than a role necessarily or title. And you can absolutely manage up 100%. So if you have a leader that isn't present, um you could just say that. Like you just see, like, hey, is now still a good time? It seems like you're distracted, right? And you don't have to say, like, why you're always so absent-minded. So don't wait till you're really mad. But say, like, it seems like you, you know, are you really busy? Like, it seems like you're not really present. Like, is that fair? And they might be like shocked that you think that and be like, oh no, they might even feel guilty, but just say it in a non-triggering way, just like, hey, is now not a good time? Like, I it seems like you're busy. Um, and give them the space because maybe they really are busy and it'd be better for them to reschedule, or they might be like, Oh, oh wow, sorry, no, I can close my other taps, no problem. Um, and even just, you know, and kind of say, like, I think we'll get the most out of this if if we can really be both be really present. And um, it's okay to advocate for those needs for yourself, like that doesn't make you a needy team member or anything like that. Um, even if you like would like to have a one-on-one. And the other thing is too, is you might find there's better days, or you know, like say, like, is there a better day for you? Like, does it even if you have the luxury, does it make make more sense for me to meet you in person and have a coffee with you? Like, I at one point offered to my boss, like, I know you're very busy, but how about like when you walk from this meeting to that meeting, I will meet you and we'll walk together. I will bring a coffee for you, and I will literally travel an hour and a half to have a half an hour walk with you, and I will do that because that's the best time for us to connect. And just so you can find get creative that way too, and just what is what is important? Um, and I think once you a leader realizes that they'll get that much more out of you that way, they will also it becomes like a self-fulfilling prophecy a little bit, right?

SPEAKER_01: 41:28

Where love that I also think too, I think it's also really great to preface that hey, there's things to cover that are work related, but there's this thing in my life that's potentially impacting my ability to perform at my best. And I need to talk to you about it. Yes, because then you're creating uh an awareness in your leader that, like, hey, we're gonna shift from talking about work, work, work to now there's a personal conversation that I need to have with you and give them that space to go, okay, now I need to make take a mental shift and go from here to here. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 41:57

And you might even want to give someone a heads up, right? It's like something big is going on. I always love when people gave me a heads up and say, hey, I'll I'm happy to fill you in in detail, but something's this and this is happening in my life, and um, it's not, you know, necessarily impacting my work, but I needed to be aware of it. Um, and and then we can kind of sort of like, do would you like to talk about it? Uh, and just but giving that getting that heads up because like stuff does happen, like we're we're not robots and we can't plug ourselves in overnight. None of that. Like it's we need we're humans, and I think that's totally okay, but yeah, it can be helpful to maybe give a heads up, I think, if something big is happening.

SPEAKER_01: 42:36

Yeah. Norma, I um I'm learning so much from you, which I absolutely love. I'm always a student always first, and I love your ability to communicate very clearly, actionable things that people can take away. Um, and so, you know, as we wrap this conversation, I just want to say thank you so much for being vulnerable to have these conversations and bring this topic to the surface because it's hard to have. I think it's hard to have leaders sitting in a room and saying, we can do better, because we're all doing our best. But if you're self-aware, if you're not self-aware and you don't know that you have an area that's lacking, which by the way, we all have areas that are lacking. This is one of those areas that when you start to become self-aware and you start to realize and choose to be present, it's kind of like a waterfall effect, cascade effect, right? All of these other things are going to open up and and become available to you because you've determined and decided to stay be present. Yes.

SPEAKER_00: 43:31

And honestly, like being in the moment is that's all there is. And it's like it took me so long to figure this out. Like, literally years of counseling where like we would always circle back to be like, oh, it's just about being in the moment. Like, no matter what the problem was we started with. And it was just like, oh, like that's that's all there is. And if you like, if you're fully present, like that's why play is so incredible, because you're typically fully present or hobbies. And you're in the flow, all of those things that feel good. And that those are moments where you're really, really present. Um, and you'll feel it with you know, you were really present with your kids. You don't need hours and hours of one-on-one, you actually just need a bit of full attention, and the same goes for a team member. You don't're gonna need like hours and hours with every one of them, but even if you gave them like 50 minutes of your undivided attention and really active listening, that would make a massive difference.

SPEAKER_01: 44:27

Yeah, I agree. Well, um my question now is right, if people want to connect with you as they should, because I think you're amazing and I can't wait to learn more from you. Um, where can they find you and best connect with you and tell us about what you're working on right now?

SPEAKER_00: 44:41

Yeah, happy to. So, best place is probably to find me on LinkedIn, uh Norma Serena Hogan. Um, and what I'm working on right now, I've left corporate and I become the coach that I wish I had a couple years ago. So I really built CS skills and CS departments, but I realized I didn't really build on those internal skills. And I since, you know, I have a mindfulness certification, I have a master in leadership, so I've gotten the skills in the meantime, but I put together really a course around um how to lead intentionally. So I call it intentional leadership, and it's a lot of leadership skills, mindfulness skills, and also create a community of like-minded people because I felt it was very lonely at times as well as a woman in tech. And um, so that's kind of what I'm working on. I'm currently uh running a soft launch and a pilot, but I am um open for registration for September. So that is definitely a great opportunity to um connect with me or something that uh you might want to consider. And I also offer just like one-on-ones, like sort of I call it the leadership reset, where we just talk through a uh, you know, what challenge you have, um, and I'll just give you sort of my best, my best coaching advice. So that's also always an option if people are curious to just you know work through something actively, might not want to wait till September. That's always an option too.

SPEAKER_01: 46:01

Yeah, that's fantastic. Well, um, this has been such a great conversation. Um, it's really, I love getting to know you and your style. I love that we have a CS background, but you're you're called up and out of that to empower individuals who struggle the way that you did. I mean, and that's the ultimate calling. And so I'm I'm really proud of you. I'm I'm really amazed by you and inspired by you. So thank you so much for what you're doing for not only leaders, but our beloved CS community and men and women who are really trying to do their best and find ways to challenge themselves to become better.

SPEAKER_00: 46:33

Yeah, thank you. I love that. Yeah, so I think that's ultimately, I feel like again, building your inner capacity so you can show up more like yourself and everyone benefits from you being your best self, right?

SPEAKER_01: 46:43

So yeah, that's really amazing. Well, thank you again. So uh as we wrap today's episode, I'm gonna remind you, as always, to be inspired to feel deeply. Feelings matter, emotions matter, but you have to know what you feel. And a lot of the time you need to know why you feel it. And so if you're feeling emotionally charged by this conversation, I'm gonna challenge you. It's because there's something that Norma or I have said today that have triggered you, and I'm gonna encourage you to lean into that. To be fearless in that pursuit, because if you allow fear to keep you from becoming an authentic and emotionally present leader, you are missing out on the intention or the purpose of what leadership is supposed to be about. Leadership is about empowering the people that report to you with everything they need to do the best of their ability because when they win, you win. And to be authentic in your leadership. No one else is like you. There will never be another you. And so when you're authentic in how you lead and you're authentic in your ability to say, you know what? I can be a better leader, I can be more emotionally present, I can put stuff down, I can add five minutes back to my calendar by reducing the amount of time I'm spending in meetings and take some advice from today to stay authentic in that because that is what's going to set you apart. And to be um, to keep leaning into your feelings because we know, as always, that transformation starts from within. So thank you so much for being here with us today, and I will see you all next Friday.