Beyond the Deal

From Physical Therapy to Real Estate: Eric Tomei’s Wealth-Building Journey

• Michael Wagman

Share episode

In this episode of Beyond the Deal, host Michael Wagman sits down with Eric Tomei, a full-time physical therapist who has successfully built a real estate empire while maintaining his career. With over 125 house flips, multiple multifamily investments, and a focus on commercial real estate, Eric shares his strategic approach to scaling a real estate business while working full-time.


Eric dives into the challenges of house flipping, why he shifted to multifamily investing, and the power of building strong investor relationships. He also breaks down his time management strategies, how he juggles investing with family life, and why his disciplined daily routine has been a key factor in his success.


If you're looking to grow your real estate portfolio while managing a full-time job, this episode is filled with practical tips, hard-earned lessons, and mindset shifts to help you succeed.


Key Takeaways:

✅ How Eric flipped 125+ homes and transitioned into commercial real estate

✅ Why he left house flipping for multifamily & commercial investing

✅ The biggest challenges in flipping & scaling a real estate business

✅ How to raise capital and build investor relationships the right way

✅ The importance of time management, discipline, and personal growth


Timestamps:

00:00:00 Introduction to Beyond the Deal Podcast  

00:01:50 Balancing Healthcare and Real Estate Careers

00:03:46 Transition from Physical Therapy to Real Estate Investing

00:05:40 Challenges of Scaling a House Flipping Business

00:07:31 Navigating Detroit Real Estate: Risks and Rewards  

00:09:22 Navigating a Real Estate Flop: Lessons Learned

00:11:10 Managing Deal Details and Flexibility in Partnerships

00:12:57 Understanding Investment Risks for Newbies

00:14:51 Impact of Recent Interest Rate Hikes on Real Estate Market

00:16:20 Strategies to Evaluate Real Estate Deals

00:18:06 Navigating Cap Rate Fluctuations in Real Estate

00:19:51 Building Trust in Real Estate Investments

00:21:40 Investing in the Midwest: A Strategic Overview  

00:23:33 Balancing Multiple Roles: A Day in the Life of a Busy Professional

00:25:16 Balancing Structure and Relaxation During Vacations

00:27:10 Unwinding with Reading and Financial Education 



NEW TO THE SHOW?

🔗 Follow the host:

https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelwagman/

https://www.instagram.com/nimble_capital_group/

https://www.nimblecapitalgroup.com/


🔗 Follow the guest:

https://www.linkedin.com/in/eric-tomei-1698664

https://toppointinvestments.com/

📞 Call Eric: 248-767-3406


Interested in learning how to raise capital and scale your business to build a lifestyle around freedom? 

Schedule a call today and let's find out if you're a good fit for mentorship.

https://calendly.com/mwagman/capital-coaching-exploration

🔥 Don't forget to subscribe, leave a review, and share this episode with fellow investors!



Hello, and welcome to Beyond the Deal, the podcast where we go deeper than the numbers and we talk about the habits that lead to success in life and business. Sure, we're going to talk about real estate today, but we're also going to talk about physical health and mental health too. Now, I did have a camera issue about two thirds of the way through the podcast. If you're watching this live, you can see I'm on a different camera now, but that's life. We roll with the punches sometimes. So my guest today is Eric Tomei. Eric is a physical therapist. who turned into a real estate investor, but he's also a house flipper who turned into a multifamily commercial real estate investor. So we have an absolutely fascinating conversation. I'm very excited for you to hear it. Before we get started, I do want to thank the sponsors for today's show. Myself, Nimble Capital Group is a multifamily mission-driven investing company. We provide a variety of different investments for our investors. For those who are interested in cash flow, we have options for those who are interested in tax depreciation benefits, we have options. For those who are interested in equity appreciation, we also have plenty of options. Secondly, if you are interested in doing what I do and getting involved in any capacity, I do take on 10 new coaching students per month. So see the show notes in the description below if you're interested in booking a call with me. All right, let's get into it. All right, Eric Tomei, welcome to the show. Happy to have you here. Oh my gosh, Michael, thank you so much for having me on. Excited to be here and excited to talk with you today. Great, let's get right into it. So for our viewers who don't know anything about you, please tell us a little bit about your background and what it is that you are currently doing today. Yeah, so thank you. So I have a pretty diverse background and it might appeal to some of your viewers. Obviously, I'm in the healthcare space. I'm an orthopedic physical therapist. I've been one for almost 23 24 years now. And my passion, why I love serving people in healthcare, is also real estate. I've been a full-time real estate investor for 15 years and people say, Hey, you know, how can you be a full-time real estate investor and have a W-2? Well, there's 24 hours in a day and there's 168 hours in a week and it's your responsibility to make the most of them and I do. So I do consider myself a full-time real estate investor because I do put in, it's almost like having two full-time jobs, but both are fun in different ways. I have a wide range of real estate experience. I flipped over 125 single-family homes here in the metro Detroit area. I've owned small multi-family and rentals here in the metro Detroit area. I've since sold those. I'm focusing on bigger commercial projects as I've GP and LP and various multi-family projects in the metro Kansas City area. I really do like that area for various reasons. And again, my focus in the future is to continue to add value to people in the multifamily and commercial space, as I really enjoy connecting with people, networking, and attracting capital for various commercial projects. Awesome. Okay. So much to unpack there. All right, let's go back to the beginning. Your work as a occupational physical therapist. or orthopedic physical therapist, you said. Right. And what is the motivation to start flipping houses? How did you get there? That's a great question. So I can tell you exactly when that started. Back in 2006 and it was actually, we're coming up on the 19th anniversary of that. My dad suddenly passed away. He was a business owner and he owned an engineering company. The company is still actually in business now and ironically enough, future decisions need to be made in that business and I'm being included in that, just because I'm representing my mother who is now the owner by death. It really turned the corner for me in thinking to myself, you know, being a physical therapist is great because you can serve people, but what else is there in life, right? I had more of a burning desire to do more and it's not necessarily a good or bad thing. I certainly didn't dislike what I was doing. I do like it, but there's other things in life and you're here for such a short amount of time that I wanted to take advantage of all that life had to offer. And for me personally, that was real estate and doing as many things as I could do to not only further my financial future, but my family's for generations to come. So that's when I started in the flipping arena in mid-2007. And it was great for a while. I got in right as the market crashed. It was, you know, you could buy houses for 50 cents on the dollar, it was great. But in a flipping business, just like in a lot of businesses, you either had the houses but didn't have the money, you either had the money, but the contractors, and we've all dealt with contractor issues in real estate, there was always an issue and I found it very hard after a while to scale. Not that I wouldn't take advantage of a flip now if it didn't happen, it was a smoking good deal, but honestly, to build that business, that's not what I wanted to do after flipping so many homes, so that's how it was kind of like my pivot point that I thought to myself, okay, always be on the lookout for good opportunities, right? And when you say good opportunities in business, really, that means great relationships with other potential business partners, because they can either lead you down the right road and the great path or not. Absolutely, absolutely. So, so you got in before the crash. I did. You were relatively unaffected and took that as the buying opportunity of a lifetime post crash. At your peak, what was the scale like? How many, because you did 125 flips, but you did it over the course of how many years. How many did you have going on at a time? And for background, my background is as a flipper as well, and I found it extremely hard to scale. And I think the most of, I probably had two or three renovation projects at most going on at any given time. I agree with you 100%. The most that I think we had going were three or at a time, I think we did 21, was our highest in a given year. And again, these 125 flips are over the course of approximately 10 plus years too. So I don't want people to think I did 125 flips in a year or two. That is not the case. And they were not nationwide either. They were in my Metro Detroit market here in Michigan. So it was very local because of course we wanted to have a pulse on the deal. But I agree with you 100%, Michael, it was just, it was really hard to scale that particular business in real estate. And I thought to myself, look, you know, you're smart, you're educated, you can educate yourself. There's obviously other avenues in real estate that you can pursue. You know, there's not just one way or one path to what you want to achieve. So, and that's when I pivoted obviously into the multifamily and commercial space. Got it. Okay, so I want to get back to that in a second, but I just had a thought. I was remembering that for most of the last decade, I mean, Detroit as a market has been known for the cheapest houses on the planet, right? So when you're buying a flip and selling it, are we talking like sub 100K type things or where are we at here? So everybody, when they say Detroit, they're like, oh my gosh, you're close to Detroit. It's so awesome, right? Like I have never bought a property in the city of Detroit. That does not mean that people do not make money in the city of Detroit. It just means that that's not what I'm comfortable with and that's not my wheelhouse. I have very good friends that make very good money with City of Detroit flips. But it is very street by street specific in the city of Detroit. And you have to know your market extremely well, and I mean extremely well, or otherwise you could lose a lot of money by not investing in the right areas in Detroit. And frankly, look, you know, and this is even before I had a family, I just didn't want to take the risk of going down there and having to babysit contractors. in the city. I mean, I'll be flat out honest. It was not for me. That's not my risk tolerance. I'm okay to admit that. It is for some people. It definitely wasn't for me. Yeah, and everything about real estate is hyperlocal, even at the commercial level too, right? You could think that you're buying in a C or a B area and you could be totally wrong and that could be a D and the next five years you've got a war zone on your hands. Well, to your point, right, I don't buy in war zones and I don't think anybody does. Some people do, I don't. And I know a lot of the colleagues that we know together, Michael, don't either. You're focusing on at least C+ or up areas. In Detroit, you're right. If you get in the wrong area, it can be warzonish very quickly. So talk me through the transition period. When you're done with flips, was there one flip where you said, I've had enough, this is the flip that ended it all? Or was it just, I wanna get out of single family and get into commercial? Talk me through that. Yeah, that's a great, great question. And I haven't been asked that too many times, but yes, it was a flip that I had lost money on. Believe it or not, everything went wrong with this particular flip, right? And it was, in retrospect, I probably should have been keeping a closer eye on the situation. Of course, if you have two or three other things going on, sometimes that's not, feel like you have partners you can trust. But when I tell you that with it, it did, and I was like, What went wrong, you gotta tell us, you gotta tell us how everything, 'cause I've been there Well, first of all, right, and I think we touched on this, buy right with anything, whether it's residential or commercial, I don't care what space you're in. We thought we were buying right. Then the market corrected and shifted in the metro Detroit area. So that didn't help. We had contractors walk up. So that didn't help us. And then anytime you're in a flip, as you know, time is money. Holding costs are tremendous in flips and it's what you want to try to avoid, right? We had partners that decided, hey, you know, we're gonna do this, but then all of a sudden we're not. So, okay, let's adjust with that. Again, city issues that we ran into that we didn't anticipate, just deadlines that weren't met. It was, it was a gauntlet. I will tell you this and I'm just like, you know, I don't really need to deal with this anymore. I'm not going to... How much did you lose? Good question. So we lost, let me see, it probably took took closer to 11 months, which is tremendously long for a flip, as you know, and anybody who's flipped a house. And it was about 20 to 25 that we lost. And you know what, here's the thing, right? You try to look for the silver lining'cause there's a lot of lessons to be learned from obviously failure and adversity, right? You know, one of the things is, okay, hey, you didn't make money, it was painful, it wasn't fun, right? But the lessons you learn are, it's so important to partner with the right people. Certainly from a loss perspective, you can claim that on your taxes, which is not necessarily a bad thing. Certainly you wanna make money on any flip or any real estate venture you do, but if you're not going to, you really try to have to grab the positives where you can, right? So the lessons that I learned from that were control the deal and control the situation always, too and obsess detail as well. I don't mind being called obsessively, not controlling because that's not the word, but you want to make sure that you have a pulse on what is going on in terms of controlling every detail of that deal. Or otherwise that deal is going to go bad quickly. It can get away from you, right? It can. That's a great way to say it. It can get away from you very quickly. Not that that's what you intended at the start of the project and not that's what anybody intended, but things change and they change quickly and you have to be able to be flexible and roll with the punches during that kind of deal. Absolutely. So you mentioned partners on that deal, and I've certainly been burned through some partnerships in my life as well. I'm very fortunate to have found a good one now I've been with for quite some time. But so when you're doing all these flips, were you just doing JVs, raising private capital? How are you approaching that? How are you structuring it? Yeah, so, I mean, I have raised private capital in the past for flips and how we used to do it way back was I didn't have any money when I first started, Michael, I really didn't. So, you know, all of our private capital that we raised, we usually gave them a choice of three options, like, hey, you can split the equity with us, you know, at least at the start, 'cause we weren't, you know, we had to prove ourselves and that was a higher risk, higher reward for the investor, right, we can pay you a percent interest throughout the course of the flip, or we can pay you a flat amount. We actually gave our investors options. Most of the investors, when we were collecting private capital, actually went for the equity split. So they forego the money, I guess, upfront, so to speak, for a higher reward in the back end. And most of the time it worked out beautifully, but there's of course a couple times where it didn't. And we educated our investors like, Hey, this is what happened. And again, thankful that our investors obviously understood. I'm not saying that they were happy about it, right? But they understood as long as you're obviously being transparent with them. And I think all investment does include the risk of loss and true savvy investors know that newbie investors kind of get into this and all they think is, I'm going to make so much money and it's all going to work out fine. And includes risk of some sort, right? Well, and they watch HDTV or they watch these shows that, oh, they just made$100,000, but like nine or 10 things went wrong. No, That's not how it goes. When nine or 10 things go wrong, you're usually losing money on a house. So yes, I get it. The newbie investors, you have to obviously get into it. You can't just sit on the sideline, but you have to obviously educate yourself. That's a primary importance before you enter into any kind of deal, whether it's residential or commercial. I like to say that really in any industry, if somebody's gonna invest with me or with you, let's say they invest 10 times. Nine of them should go really well. One of them is going to have a whole lot of problems, right? But if you stick with it and stick with it in the long run, you will come out on top eventually. And I think that's just something that a lot of newer investors haven't really grasped their mind around yet. I agree with that 100%, Michael, because I'll tell you what, newer investors who come to me say, I'm like, beware of the person who tells you that they've never lost money in real estate because nobody in real estate, I don't care who you are, including our current president, nobody's undefeated. has lost money on a deal for one reason or another. Does that make them a bad investor or not a smart person? Of course it doesn't. Circumstances dictate sometimes that the deal deal just does not go right, despite your best efforts. But beware of the real estate investor who has never lost money. That's kind of a perfect segue into where we are right now. And like the last two and a half years since the interest rate hikes happened, it's been just an absolute wild, semi unprecedented time in American real estate. You know, I've been in real estate for a little less than a decade now, you've been in it quite a bit longer, but you know, what do you think of what's going on with where interest rates are, how the markets have stagnated, what things look like for the future. I know you don't have a crystal ball, right? But how have these last two years been for you with everything going on? So I can just speak to the obviously the commercial markets because that's what I've been focusing on lately, obviously in the last two to two and a half years. Look, people buy real estate in good times and they buy real estate in difficult and challenging economic times. As long as your numbers are rock solid and conservative, and let me just say that everybody says that they're a conservative underwriter or they write their numbers conservatively. I've never met anybody that said, you know, I really wrote these numbers pretty liberal, so this deal might not work. I've never heard that from anybody, right? So let me just say that as long as you are writing, we have underwritten our deals or the deals and the operators that I'm associated with, at least at 7% to 8% for the last two to two and a half years. Because again, you want to stress test that deal so much that you want to make sure that at higher interest rates, that deal is still gonna cash or say that it's going to cash flow like your numbers project. In fact, I have a group of underwriters, and I don't know if you do this too, that if I am unsure about a deal that I'm underwriting, I will specifically take it to a group of three or four people who I tremendously trust and I will tell them to kill the deal. Kill this deal. If you can't kill this deal, I know to go forward with it. That's awesome. I've never heard of that and I don't do my own underwriting anymore, my business partners really. I know how it and I'm fairly decent at it. Am I the expert at it? Absolutely not. I'm never gonna be that guy that sits in front of a spreadsheet or a computer for eight hours a day and pretends I'm happy I'm not. You gotta farm that out, right? But I want people to kill the deal and if they cannot kill that deal then I know it's pretty good and it's time to go forward with that deal. So in the last couple years then, if you're underwriting at 7-8% interest, are you finding anything that cash flows? Gosh, I can tell you, my friend, so in my home state of Michigan, and I'm gonna tell you we're not the most landlord-friendly state in the nation, not to get into a political debate certainly, but we're not. And it's been very challenging to find deals that pencil in here in Michigan, if you are on the buy side, right, and especially if it's like a value-add multifamily or any kind of value-add, it's been very challenging. I think sellers are a little aggressive with their sale price and what they will accept for their property. And I can tell you that there's just certain prices that we just won't pay for things because we are not in the business of overpaying for something. There's no guarantee of appreciation in the real estate market. That's one thing that you hope for and one thing you buy real estate for in addition to cash flow. But there's no guarantee. So you have to make sure that your numbers are so rock-solid on the buy side. that there's really no question in the future or the deal would have to severely tank for people to get into trouble. Yeah, I think, especially in commercial real estate, a lot of people like to bank on the fact that you have forced appreciation through cap rates, but nobody thinks about what happens if cap rates expand significantly, right? It's like-- Right, or they compress. Yeah. Right? Or I mean, anything can happen with the cap rates, right? They are just numbers on a spreadsheet, right? So you have to be ready for and be flexible with those adjustments one way or the other, because you don't know, nobody knows which way the market's gonna go. Doesn't mean that you shouldn't be educated and invest in real estate. You just have to be prepared for as many possibilities in the future as possible. And to your earlier point, these sellers who two years ago, they saw their price and they internalized that somehow. my building is worth$22 million or whatever it is, right? And today it's worth 14, but they do not want to believe that, right? Here's the data, my friend. Here are the facts, right? Like, I'm sorry if you don't think we can't support 22 million, right? It's really 14. These are what the numbers show and we're going by numbers here, like actual physical, factual data. At this time, are you acting largely as a capital raiser for others, multifamily deals? Are you being the owner operator on everything? What is your role in this new business of yours post flipping? I actually don't like to look at it as raising capital. I know a lot of people use that term and we all know what we mean by that in the commercial space, but I prefer to think of it as attracting capital. And the reason I say attracting capital is because all business, including real estate, is built on the strength and the foundation of your relationships. If you don't have great relationships, nobody's gonna give you money, ever. People invest with people that they know, like, and trust. they invest repeatedly with people they know like and trust who can prove themselves in delivering the results. So I act as yes, I act as that and I also act as kind of a matchmaker if I know operators who really are you know great operators and capital partners through private equity or family offices who you know want to be connected to good operators. I have those things at my disposal which I think are very good in terms of linking people together to obviously create energy to perhaps close on a real estate deal, as we all know. Real estate deals on the commercial side are a little bit more challenging and many more layers before you get to the finish line. But I enjoy the capital raising part. I like the investor relations. I actually don't even mind the asset management, to be perfectly honest. I like the nuts and bolts and the day-to-day operations of the business. We certainly try and find our own deals here in Michigan, but like I said, they're very few and far between in terms of the numbers working out. But again, my focus is, if there's a great deal locally, fantastic, I will take it down. But if there's not, then that's why I've partnered and have various GP and LP positions in the metro Kansas City area with a specific operator. Got it. So, I was about to shift gears, but you just mentioned something very specific, so I have to ask you about it. So you're a market specific guy, right? Your entire life of investing, you've been focused entirely on Detroit until you've done this commercial thing, and now you're focused entirely on Kansas City, is that correct? No, actually, to tell you the truth, I'm focused wherever the numbers work. So if there's a deal in Alaska, sure, if it works, great. But again, I am not familiar with Alaska, so then you have to have people who are competent and smart and be boots on the ground anywhere you're at. So Kansas City is just one of the markets that I like and invest in. I don't have necessarily a Midwest bias. I mean, I'm from the Midwest, I've grown up in the Midwest, I spent all my life in the Midwest. I do like the Midwest, but everybody and their brother also likes the Sunbelt states, we all know what those states are, we all know everybody wants to be in them. I'm really for wherever the best deal is and wherever the numbers work and wherever the best chance of success is. So that could be in Michigan, that could be in Florida, that could be in North Carolina, it could be in Kansas, wherever. Ironically enough, I've been moving from Sunbelt states towards the Midwest and we really like, you know, Oklahoma, Tulsa right now. Yes. A lot more cash flow potential in the Midwest. Yeah, Tulsa's a great market also. There's a lot of good industrial flex based deals as well as multifamily, you know, but again, you gotta buy, right? As you know, you gotta buy, right? Exactly. All right, let's switch gears. So in this podcast, we do talk a lot about real estate and business, but we also try to get a little deeper. So you've been balancing two jobs, I guess, full-time jobs and a family you mentioned for what, the last decade plus? Yeah, the last 15 years. Yeah. How do you stay sane? How do you sleep? I don't sleep much. Yeah, exactly. What are you doing right now in your life to balance all that? Yeah, that's a great question. It truly is because you do have to stay sane. So my sanity is very, very simple and it's very, very basic. I work out six to seven days a week and I usually get up like clockwork at four 45 in the morning to work out so I can be at the gym at five. I come home at probably around six 15 after about a 45 minute to a 65 minute workout. And you know, and then I'll make lunches for my kids, get myself ready for the day, do a couple errands at home,

be at the clinic no later than 7:

45. In the middle of that, you know, I can be texting, I can be emailing, I can be calling. And then honestly, you know, throughout my day, I'll work real estate, you know, calls and Zoom meetings and podcasts and deals and around my day. I mean, it's almost like second nature for me to be doing two or three things at once. I'm not saying that's a great thing to do long-term and I'm certainly not saying it's for everybody. It's just currently what right now what I have to do and I'm okay with it. It's fine. Ideally, you know, I would like to obviously one day transition since I've been a physical therapist for quite a while. I'd certainly like to transition obviously into real estate full-time and there have been many times where I've almost gotten there but just haven't quite got there yet. So I'm looking forward to that hopefully in 2025. But yes, the sanity aspect of it, you have to be ruthlessly efficient with your time. And when I tell you that I it's so funny, Michael, because I'm used to coaching travel basketball for both of my kids. And they would laugh at me because, you know, I was the coaching schedule that I had was to the minute, like from seven 20 to seven 22, we're going to we're doing bathroom breaks and water and from seven 25 to, you know, seven 39, we're doing this drill. Like it was to the minute. That's how I have to run my life. Yeah. I mean, you're preaching to the choir here, something I do with all of my coaching students is ideal day exercise where I just have them design if you had a perfect day and you could design it to the minute, what does it look like and then use that as a temple. So even though you've got two or three things going on at any given moment, it actually sounds like there's quite a bit of structure in your day and that's what makes it work as an entrepreneur. There is and people would look at my day and think it's chaotic and oh my gosh, how do you have the energy to do it? I don't really think about how I have the energy to do it. I just do it because it's normal to me and it's normal to structure it that way. I will say to you though, when I go on on like a vacation or a family vacation, right? I am completely the opposite. I don't plan anything. I let my wife plan it. I'm like, sure. Okay, we'll go here. We'll go there. Fine. No big deal. Like in the downtime, I could be better with downtime, especially on a vacation because I'm so used to the structure that it's very hard sometimes to adjust. I'm getting better though. We can always grow. I can't agree more. I just got back. I was traveling the world for 12 months and obviously, oh yeah, that's right working full time. It wasn't vacation though, right? Because if you ask me what is a real vacation, a real vacation is put me on a beach and tell me I have nothing to do and nowhere to go. That's a real vacation. I don't have any decisions to make today and the less decisions, the better, right? 100%, that's really what a true vacation is to me. And it's funny because when you're on a vacation with your family or what have you, you usually have a structure and you're doing things and that's fine. But then it's the downtime. It's just like, okay, what are we doing now? What would I be doing if I was at home? Should I be answering an e-mail? Should I be texting somebody? Should I be connecting with somebody? That kind of thing. Absolutely. And it's very hard. I mean, how do you manage to disconnect as an owner operator? What do you turn off at the end of the day? How do you calm down? How do you get your brain to go into relax mode, whether you're on vacation or just trying to go to bed at night? What do you do? Yeah, it's a good question and I'm not gonna say I'm the expert on this. whatsoever. So my routine is I try to be done by 11 o'clock. And you know, I just told you I get up

at 4:

45, so you're talking about usually an 18 hour day, right? Usually. I try to, you know, wind it down by 11, and what I'll do is I will read something. For me, this is what, you know, kind of focuses me on my downtime. I'll read something for pleasure, whether it's a biography, whether it's a cookbook, because I love to cook. Whether it's anything that's not related to real estate or my profession, I will do. One thing that I love to do is, I always like financial education. Of course, that leads back to real estate, so I don't know how much of a downtime thing that that is, but I really enjoy that kind of 20 minutes to 30 minutes of just kind of stillness and quietness in the house. I will tell you, probably about 50% of the time, I'm falling asleep in a book 'cause I'm trying to read it at 11 o'clock at night, which is not the smartest thing in the world to do after you've had 16 to 18 hour days. But there always can be adjustments for that routine. If it puts you to sleep, it puts you to sleep, right? Right, exactly. And that's kind of like my wind down time. I shut the screens off. You know, I try to wind down that way too. Well, Eric, it's been a pleasure having you on. Before we part ways, I'd like you to tell our listeners, where can they find out more about you? If they're interested in investing with you, if they want to partner up with you, if they like Detroit and just want to go get a beer with Where can they find out more about you? Oh my God, well, you know, I usually give people, honestly, to tell you the truth, the easiest way to get ahold of me is I usually get my cell phone out. I mean, so, I mean, and I don't mind doing that. I mean, I do have a website of the group that I run here in Michigan, it's called Top Point Investments, and it's toppointinvestments.com, just like it sounds, T-O-P-P-O-I-N-T-I-N-V-E-S-T-M-E-N-T-S.com. My cell phone is 248-767-3406 I don't have a problem sharing that with you or your investors because again, we're a very small community and we need to help each other out. Perfect. Eric, thanks so much for being here. Oh my gosh. Thank you so much, Michael. It was great talking with you. I look forward to obviously connecting to you and your viewers more and I appreciate you taking the time to find out a little bit about me today in this podcast.