The Secure Love Club Podcast

Ep #7: Sex, Attachment & Self-Worth: Breaking Free from Anxious Patterns with Clinical Sexologist & Relationship Specialist, Eliza Wilson

• Mimi Watt

Share episode

Get ready for a deep dive into the juiciest episode of the Secure Love Club podcast yet! Join me as I chat with the incredible Eliza Wilson, a therapeutic coach & clinical sexologist with over a decade of experience in helping individuals master self-love and create fulfilling relationships. We explore how anxious and avoidant attachment styles shake up your love life, the seductive yet dangerous role of sex as a form of reassurance, and the magic of building a deeper emotional connection through intimacy in secure relationships. Eliza also dishes out transformative advice on breaking unhealthy patterns, the power of inner work, and finding your true worth. Plus, we tackle the hot-button issue of porn in relationships - should it stay or should it go? Whether you're navigating casual dating or looking to strengthen your current relationship, this episode is bursting with insights and actionable tips to elevate your love game. Don't miss out!

CONNECT WITH ELIZA!
Eliza’s Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/elizajoytherapeuticcoaching/
Sex Cells Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/sex-cells/id1523263772

MIMI SOCIAL MEDIA
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mimiwatt/
TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@mimiwatt1?is_from_webapp=1&sender_device=pc

Got something you'd love me to record an episode on? DM me on Instagram and let me know!

You are listening to the Secure Love Club podcast with Mimi Watt episode seven. Hey friends. Welcome back to the Club. How are you doing today? I hope you are doing well, because I am doing amazing. I just came off the back of one of the most insightful, satisfying, juiciest conversations I have had in a while. Today on the podcast, you. Have the privilege of connecting with and hearing from the incredible Eliza Wilson. Eliza is a highly experienced therapeutic coach with over a decade of practice and academic study specializing in guiding individuals towards self-mastery and achieving healthy and fulfilling relationships. Eliza has an academic background in counseling and behavioral sciences, sexology. Life coaching and relationship counseling with a decade of experience spanning crisis intervention, mental health, child protection, and trauma recovery. She has worked with people from all walks of life helping children, teens, adults, couples, and families, navigate some of their darkest moments. Eliza's. Therapeutic coaching practice. Eliza Joy Therapeutic Coaching was born a year ago when Eliza moved out of crisis intervention and started working as a therapeutic coach with people doing the inner work so that they can achieve their best yet relationship with themselves and with others. Eliza works with both men and women, however, in over the last 12 months has found that 90% of her clients have been men. Eliza also hosts a podcast called Sex Sells Podcast, and that sells with a C. And in this conversation today, we are talking all things sex and intimacy. In this conversation, we dive into how the anxious and avoidant attachments impact intimacy and connection, the risks of using sex for reassurance and how to build health a healthier approach. How sex evolves in secure relationships and fosters deeper emotional connection. Why anxious data feel drawn to unavailable partners and how to shift towards secure attraction without the classic, this feels boring approach, using physical connection as a tool for emotional healing and security. And last but definitely not least, the role of porn in relationships. Is it okay. What impact does it have on individuals and couples and how to assert your boundaries around porn in relationships? This is a conversation you do not want to miss. Let's dive in.

Mimi:

Hello, Eliza. Welcome to the Secure Love Club podcast. I'm so excited to have you on. How are you feeling this morning?

Eliza:

Thank you. I'm so excited to be here. Um, I've known Mimi for how many years? Don't make me do the maths. Since we were like six or seven or something, whenever it is. Um, so Mimi has been in my life a very long time. And I, we were just saying it's so nice that we've reconnected through a mutual. passion and our careers. So it's so lovely to be here with you again. I love seeing you and everything you've done. I'm so proud of you and happy for you. You're such a such goals. So inspiring. Thank you.

Mimi:

Yeah, it is. It's crazy. It's a full circle moment. Yeah. So Eliza and I we've known each other since we were probably I mean, it was, it must have been under

Eliza:

10 years

Mimi:

old.

Eliza:

Yeah, we were

Mimi:

good family friends. And then we've sort of, we kind of lost touch a little bit as we got a bit older. And then we've recently, our worlds have come back together through the power of social media and just. And it's such an amazing full circle moment that we're both in similar lines of work and we're both, we have this shared passion and, um, I think it's so cool that we get to talk about this whilst also having that long standing connection that we built, you know, when we were, when we were young. So apart from us being old friends, can you share for those of you, for those who have never come across your profile, who don't know you? Can you share just a little bit about yourself, where you're from, who you are and what you do and who you help?

Eliza:

Yeah, sure. So, like Mimi, I grew up in the north shore of Sydney and I currently live in the central coast of New South Wales, uh, with my husband and two children. And a dog. Um, and I first got into this, I have a very, um, strong memory of being in high school and having someone come out when I was like 16 to teach about safe sex at school. And I was like, I'm going to be her. That's what I'm doing. Um, and. Lo and behold, we went and did that. Um, the path was set out with me for me for a very young age, but I didn't actually get into the sex ed. I went and studied counseling, behavioral science, and, um, did a whole lot of other degrees post that, but I spent a lot of time working in the community, um, working in kids without, with kids and out of home care. And I did a lot of, I did do a lot of talks in school and in the end about safe sex and. Things like that and mental health. And then I was like, you know what, it's time to, it's time to get to the adults. So then I did a lot of work with families, um, and couples that had, were really struggling, um, in Western Sydney. So I felt that I'd really worked with everyone from every path of life. And seeing people be able to transform their lives from the absolute bottom of the barrel. Like there, there is so many things that hold us back. Our comfort zone, our traumas, our baggage, so many things keep us in place. But I can tell you this. If I have seen these people that have come from absolutely nothing and have the most severe levels of abuse and neglect you can possibly imagine, get to the point of where they're at now, anyone is capable of change. Um, so I branched off from there about a year ago. I finally. I was on maternity leave and I was like, I can't go back to work. I kept saying, as soon as I'm 30, I'm no longer working for the community. I'm working for myself. I did my time in the community. Um, and then right before my 30th birthday, I started, um, my own therapeutic coaching business. And since then it's taken off. It's been really amazing. I had a pre standing, um, podcast for almost five years now. So because of that, I've got a lot of clients from that. And majority of the people I've worked with have been men, which has been really interesting. So I'm excited to speak to, um, a woman and a female audience. More so, I think I'm assuming that most of your audience is women. So that's really exciting for me today. And yeah, here we are.

Mimi:

Wow. It's such an amazing journey that you've been on and I find it. So cool that you had that inkling from such a young age that you resonated so deeply with that person who is coming to talk about sex ed and you just knew that that was. Yeah, part and parcel of what you wanted to do as you grew up and I think coming from such a rich and diversified background and the types of people that you've helped just makes you, you know, all the more of an expert to talk about relationships and the really intimate and intricate dynamics. That happen in relationships and specifically as part of your work, because I know you work with, so you work with individuals and couples on all, like all parts of, like, who would you say is your, like, your most ideal client that you work with at the moment?

Eliza:

So, um. I work with mostly, I do work with couples occasionally, but it is mostly individual clients. And it's a lot of clients that want to have healthy and fulfilling and safe relationships. And so my whole, um, premise is that you need to do the inner work in order to have and receive a health and fulfilling relationship. Because even when I went and studied relationship counseling, um, I was lucky that prior to that, I'd already studied for eight years. So there were things in a hole. My entire degree that I was like, this doesn't make sense because all of relationship counseling was about how do you communicate like using, um, I, I hear this and, um, I want this acknowledged and those kind of things. But I'm like, well, when you get to a point of dysregulation and when you have, when you're activated by things in your past, when your attachment wounds are activated, your trauma is activated, you can't think and speak rationally. And then that's why you're in this repeated cycles in your relationship, because you're not actually acting out of logic. You're acting out of protective mechanisms and the protective mechanisms that we develop often were developed from our youth and they're maladaptive, which means that we did it to protect ourselves, but then no longer healthy, healthy or serving us anymore. So I think that there's this massive misunderstanding where people read. Everyone that has worked with me has a very strong interest in self development, which is why they've listened to my podcast for so long, but there is such a strong disconnect between you read books and think, okay, well, all I need to do is communicate in this way. All I need to do is express this way, but it's actually missing the point completely. And I was talking about this with a client recently where I was saying, if you're someone that is say. Random example, always in toxic cycles, right? And then, um, the books will tell you if you're always dating toxic people, then you need to date someone that is safe and boring, right? Which, yeah, cool. It's kind of true. Um, boring, questionable choice of words, but whatever. We'll go with it. And I'm like, yes, that's true, but also, what is the root of that? Because maybe it's that you have a cortisol and adrenaline addiction. Maybe you have, um, views and beliefs about love that stem from your childhood. Maybe you have, um, attachment insecurities. Maybe you have extremely low self worth and self confidence and you don't feel that you can achieve better things. Or maybe because of your trauma and because of your past, you're self sabotaging your relationships by being with people that you know can't provide a healthy and fulfilling relationship for you. So there's 10 different reasons in that one scenario as to why you're attracting these people. But when you have that, you go in that basic surface level self help approach, you're only getting a solution, but really we need to understand what the cause is. So that's why I think it's so, um. impactful and important what people like you and I do. Um, I've worked in a counseling background and I find that going from therapy to therapeutic coaching and coaching is much more impactful because I can really like call people out and drag them through it. I'm like, no, we're not letting you do that. We're not letting you go back to that cycle. We're going to stop you right there. Whereas in coaching, I'll be like, Oh, in counseling, I'll be like, Oh, okay. How did that feel in your body when that happened? And let's observe that. And now I still do that, of course, but also to a level of being like, I'm going to call it for what it is. This is, this is what this pattern is doing for you and this is how we're going to break it and really that close one on one. So yeah. Okay.

Mimi:

I'm just nodding here to everything that you're saying. And there's a lot that I want to unpack here. Just quickly, can you just differentiate for me, what is the difference between counseling and therapeutic? Uh, therapeutic. Okay. What did you call it? Sorry. Therapeutic coaching.

Eliza:

Yeah. Okay. So counseling, I find, well, first of all, when I studied live coaching, I also had a little bit of issues with that, um, because it was very much solution focused and not getting to the root of it. And counseling was very much in the past and understanding the past, but, um, not. And I've, everyone I've worked with, similar to what I see you post on your stories, everyone I've worked with has been like, I've been in therapy and it hasn't helped because the therapeutic tools that they've been put, that have been put in place have been more, um, like a, try deep breathing, try this, but without understanding the why, like the, without, they've been taught all these things about mindfulness, but they don't actually know what self regulation means and self stimulus. So, coaching, therapeutic coaching is combining the getting to the root cause and understanding why we are this way. And that's that kind of like therapeutic counseling aspect and where this stems from. And the coaching aspect is massive about, um, psychoeducation. And here are the actual tools you need to go forward, and then the somatic aspect of it as well, like, I'm here doing it with you, I am guiding you through this, rather than being like, okay, go home and try 10 deep breaths and see how you feel, and they're like, hey, um, I'm still anxious, still dating a shitty person, still doing this, so, yeah, I think it's much more, um, it's a, it's the perfect world of both, I think.

Mimi:

Yeah, I love that. I definitely, they, I, I've never heard it sort of described in such a succinct way because I'm aware of the difference between sort of counseling and coaching and that my understanding is that one is very based in the past and what happened and the other is very action oriented, future focused, like you're moving forward in that proactive way. But you're right. There is that missing piece of, We need to know why we're doing the things we're doing to move forward, because if we don't understand the why, I think there's also going to be a lack of connection to the action you're taking, which probably then doesn't have longevity or enough drive for the people to actually heal.

Eliza:

Exactly. And people think that the why is where like, they'll listen to you and be like, okay. I have an anxious attachment style. That's my why, but there's still much further beneath that, that needs to be unpacked. There's still much more that you are holding onto that you don't realize, like the wounds that came from that, um, attachment wound. So recognizing what your attachment style is, for example, is only. 20 percent of it, or not even, that's just the starting point of your journey, really.

Mimi:

Mm, so you say it's about, first of all, getting aware of what are the behaviors and the unhealthy patterns that are playing out in your life today, and then trying to trace back and uncover where was that born, in a way, like, where did that, where did you learn that, as you said, that maladaptive behavior, and then addressing the root.

Eliza:

Yeah, exactly. Going straight back into the past and for the first couple of say, I'm really like conscious of how and when I paste this in with my clients because often 99 percent of the time, especially because I work with men, they are like, Oh, my, I don't have any trauma. Yeah, my dad abandoned me. Yeah, I actually was physically abused and yeah, this happened and it's this whole like story of like significant trauma and even the clients that didn't have significant trauma, there are still cool. It's shocking how much from our past can activate us, like, if you were a kid that was left in daycare from early infancy, five days a week while your parents work, there's no mal, like, malintention there. There's no, um, malicious intention there, sorry. Um, and there's no Bad parenting there, for example. However, that's still impacts our attachment to our caregivers, just because we were in daycare five days a week at six months old. And it can start that early. It can start from in univer, that's how early. And sometimes it's as simple as your parent, your mom made comments on you and your body. Um, I can see cellulite on your legs and they, people interpret this as an adult and they're like, well, that's not trauma. I had a great childhood, but we still carry these wounds along with us. Maybe you were, um, had those comments from your mom and maybe it's not so impactful that it's held you back in every aspect of your life. But maybe because of that, you've developed a fear of being seen and you don't want to take up space and you don't want to advocate for yourself and you have low levels of self worth. Like everything stems back to something. So I'm really into inner child work. Deep inner child work, and this has been a really, um, interesting process that I've been leaning into a lot recently, especially leaning men into, um, a like deeply meditative, uh, visualization of speaking to their inner child. And every time I say, we're going to do this, they're like, what the fuck? Like, I'm a tradealizer. I've never meditated, let alone speak to my fuck. What the fuck is an inner child? Sorry. I hope I can swear. Yeah, absolutely. Okay. Um, but even then, I swear to God, like almost always it's led to a point of like release tears and such a strong understanding. So when it's like when you ask your inner child and you're looking back to that eight year old version of yourself and you're like, what did I need at that time? And often it's something like I needed acceptance or I needed validation. I needed comfort. And as an adult, that is the key to what you need to be giving to yourself as part of your healing journey. Yeah. Absolutely. I'm so, I'm so bad at tangenting, sorry.

Mimi:

That is okay. I'm loving everything you're saying. And I know that for those listening, they are going to be loving this. It's so insightful. And one thing that comes up for me as I hear you say that is in a way, like when you talk about that, it sounds so simple that, Oh, you need to give yourself the validation, the love, the acceptance. That you wanted as a child, it almost sounds too simple in a way where it's like, is that really the answer that I think people don't commit to the process as much as is necessary. But it's so true that that is what it comes down to. And similar to what I do with my clients. And also. Interesting. I'm glad that you noted that it's, it's not always these really intense traumas that have to happen in childhood in order to have attachment insecurity or issues as an adult, it can be really subtle things like comments from your parents that they didn't mean to be, uh, rude or hurtful, but it can be received and absorbed that way. And then also things like the childcare situation and all of that. So. Hmm. Everyone should be doing this work. Really. I mean, it's, it's sort of like this stuff should be in, in schools and in early education, um, because as we all know, prevention is better than cure. And the more we can set people up with this information. The better chance we all have at being thriving, healthy adults, and especially in relationships. And so, now that we have this sort of foundation, what I really want to pick your brain on today and talk about is the role of sex and physical intimacy in relationships. And in particular, The way this shows up for people who are still stuck in that pattern of insecure attachment. Um, I know that for myself personally, and for clients I've worked with, when I, before I'd healed a lot of my wounds around, I had a very strong anxious attachment. I noticed that I relied on sex and intimacy very strongly as a way to seek connection and validation from my partner. Um, and. It, you know, at first it was all like fun and steamy and you just call it like a really intense chemistry. But then I would always notice a few months into the relationship, it became a real crutch. And if I didn't, if my partner didn't want to engage in intimacy, I would feel extremely rejected and anxious and just try to cling to that as much as I could. So the first question I have for you is in your experience, how does. How does an anxious attachment style shape someone's sex life? How does it shape their intimacy? What role does it play for them in, I know we're kind of generalizing here, but in your experience, like what does it mean for someone who's anxiously attached?

Eliza:

Okay. So I guess. story definitely resonates with a lot of people, um, especially those of an anxious attachment style. And we, when we have an anxious attachment style, we are using sex to, um, and we're doing this unconsciously as well to provide ourselves with, um, feelings of validation, feelings of connection, feelings of reassurance. And we believe on a deep subconscious level, this is how we are securing our love. And it's really all, um, stemming from this deep seated fear of abandonment and rejection. So when we have this intimacy, when we're getting that, um. approval from our partner, which is very like tangible way to measure it, that they're engaging in sexual intimacy with us. Then we feel soothed because we're like, okay, any anxieties I just had or any worries I had is temporarily soothed at a very surface level because my partner clearly wants me. He loves me. He's engaging in sex with me. And then the cycle that you said at the end is also a hundred percent spot on that. We can interpret these very Mild things as rejections. Maybe it's simply that you're literally just rolling over after sex to go to sleep or hit your partner is, or maybe they look at something on their phone five minutes after, or maybe there's not enough aftercare or cuddling, or maybe it's that you didn't get a reassuring comment, like, wow, that was mind blowing. And then we interpret that as a rejection and it hurts them because, because we are, um, opening, uh, you know, energetically and physically to someone. It, it. The hurt and rejection comes at a much deeper wave, um, and it hurts us even more when we interpret these things as a rejection. As well as that, we can also have, like, a hyper focus sometimes on, um, Their needs where it's like, I'm going to show them how amazing they are. I'm going to really, um, make them want me or love me or think I'm incredible by focusing so much on their sexual needs rather than our own. And that kind of, um, comes as a secondary need or even not at all for anxious attached people. And of course, some people, or a lot of people, I should say that have an anxious attachment style, really struggle with. sick, uh, casual sex because it's hard to differentiate between well. How do you just emotionally attach during sexual intimacy and engage in that and have that kind of fun, casual vibe when we have been using sexual intimacy as our proof that this person is in love with me and attracted to me. So, in essence, the trap that people fall into is that sex is a way to validate and reassure us, and it's a way to soothe our own anxieties, but it's not the way that we should be soothing our own anxieties. Does that

Mimi:

resonate? Yes, that resonates so strongly. And the thing that really stuck out to me is when you said it's a really tangible way to get that need met or it's a tangible way to secure connection and feel valuable, like feel validated and wanted. And yes, I remember experiencing a lot of those sort of micro rejections, whether it was that, and I even experienced this in my, when I was in my secure relationship, you know, we went on a whole journey of navigating sex as you do. And I remember a few instances where we'd been intimate and then he. Sort of like there was one night where he was like, okay night, and he didn't mean anything bad by it, but he turned off the light and wanted to roll over and go to sleep. And I remember having this very visceral reaction in my body that felt like a punch to the gut and it felt like this really strong rejection. And I kind of had a bit of a freeze response and I was like, whoa. Uh, and. you know, at the point where I was in my healing journey, I knew, okay, this is something I need to pay attention to. Like, what is coming up here? Why am I feeling this way? Um, and then luckily I was able to communicate with him that after sex for me, like I need to have just a few moments of connection where before we just turn off the light and go straight to sleep, like that helps me feel nurtured and et cetera, et cetera. But I think for people who don't yet have the. Awareness, knowledge, or tools to be able to do that, it can be so painful. And so, for someone who does that, who uses intimacy in that way as that crutch, what would you say are some of the core reasons behind that? Like, what would be some of the things they would have experienced in their earlier childhood that would lead them to needing that type of validation in that way?

Eliza:

Probably it was a very overarching sensation of sometimes I'm being cared for and loved and sometimes I, well, sorry, I should say sometimes I feel that I'm being cared for and loved and sometimes I feel that I'm not and I want to have that reassured to me. So it's that yearning for that proof. As a child that we, and when I say we yearn for this, it's not something that as a child, you were cognitively thinking of, or even as an adult, until you go through a therapeutic journey, you're probably not aware, and you weren't definitely weren't having the thoughts I'm yearning for love. It's just a sensation that is stored in our body, in our central nervous system. And it's. It's impacting our thoughts, our beliefs and our actions. So it's this, I need this proof of love and connection because maybe my parents are working three jobs or maybe they're going through a divorce or maybe they're inconsistent with their love and approval to me. So that's how this kind of stems into our intimacy where we're like, okay, here I am now with another, um, another central relationship to me. How can I make sure that? I am getting an absolute clear picture of where they're standing. And because anxious, securely anxious attached people are so, um, used to seeking that, um, that, that soothing externally rather than internally, they rely on sex as that measure. They're relying on that intimacy and affection as that measure, because they don't know how to measure that within themselves. They don't know how to. It's all about interpreting other people's, um, behaviors and emotions around them. And they're extremely amazing at reading people. And sometimes it falls a little bit far, too far to the other end where they're reading into things a little bit too much, but it's, yeah, it's all about that. How can we do this internally rather than externally? So that's probably where it stems from, in my understanding.

Mimi:

Yeah, that makes so much sense. And would you say that, what is the role of, because we know that commonly. People who are anxiously attached will often gravitate towards someone who is more avoidant.

Eliza:

Yes.

Mimi:

The amazing combination. Why would you say, like, in those relationships, what is it about the avoidant person that would make the anxious person? Cling to them more, especially in that physical sense.

Eliza:

Yeah, yeah. So this is such a common cycle. I believe this is, maybe this isn't the most amazing thing for me to say, but I say this to my clients. I believe that if you have, um, an unhealed anxious attachment style or unhealed avoidant attachment style, it's really important that you're in a relationship with a secure person, um, because anxious. People and avoidant people have very much a strong attraction to one another. And the reason why is because they are repeating patterns and sensations that we experienced in our childhood and our body, our central nervous system and our brain will always prioritize above everything else. Uh, familiarity and that's what it seeks. And on a deep subconscious level as well, we're attracted to that because it feels familiar to us, which is why people can end up in multiple toxic relationships over and over and over again, even after a shitty, um, childhood. And on top of that, we're on a deep subconscious level. We're trying to rewrite the narrative. We're trying to heal in a way that we're not consciously aware of by saying. I can get through this person, or I can change when I'm in this relationship if this is the one that works for us. And like I said before, that's not a cognitive thought. It's something that is happening on a subconscious level. So that that kind of push and pull dynamic is something that one we're familiar to. And also the way that our brains work with and our hormones, it is A chemical attraction that is undeniable. So when we are, when we are with an avoidant person, they're spiking our cortisol levels, which is our stress hormone. And the combination of stress and adrenaline is so addictive. It is, it's a literal addiction and it activates the brain in the same way it does for a heroin addiction or a gambling addiction. It's literally the exact way. And so we are constantly stuck in these cycles. Sometimes we can recognize it. toxic, but recognize that we're repeating this. We recognize it's due to familiarity, but yet we're still going back to it because it is addictive and that's why as well, we get into these relationships when we're in with a secure and safe person and it feels so boring and all of a sudden you're super hot, sexy. toxic sex is so unsatisfying because we're not getting those spikes in our cortisol and adrenaline anymore. So it's, it's amazing and scary what happens on a hormonal level as well. And also every time that avoidant person, they go through their own cycles where the anxious attached person clings to them more because they seek more validation. And then the avoidant person withdraws even more because they're feeling like they're losing their sense of autonomy. So then that cycle only enhances where then your cortisol and your adrenaline is spiked even further. So you're like, quick, take me now, like come and come and get it. And there's something called hysterical bonding, which is when we feel that. Our relationship is threatened. We immediately get horny at times. And that's what happens when you see people where they've been cheated on, um, or they've been betrayed in their relationship. And then they have like three months of the most crazy, reignited, passionate sexual relationship. And then after that three months, once that hysterical bonding aspects over, they're like, actually, fuck you. You betrayed me. I don't want to be with you. So it's really interesting, the cycles that we go through. That is

Mimi:

crazy and makes so much sense and I feel like that's going to be for people listening so validating to understand that it's because I know that in my experience and for a lot of people it can feel so out of your control like this desire to chase these people who you know on a conscious level aren't good for you but you just seek it and seek it and seek it and to hear that the chemical response you're having is Similar to that of a heroin addiction is, is so validating because it's like, it's not that there's something wrong with you or that you're, you know, you're stunted or you can't make better choices. It's that you're actually needing to probably go through some sort of a, uh, what do you call it? Like a detox, detox, physical withdrawals from someone with that being said, and because, you know, I want to understand how we can. Bridge the gap between someone who is in an extremely toxic relationship or has a pattern of being in those relationships who is wanting to become more securely attached and have a healthier relationship because. They are on such diverse ends of the spectrum. How can someone start to almost wean themselves off that chemical addiction so that they can then move to that more balanced, secure relationship, um, and in keeping it in that vein of when it comes to that intense physical intimacy.

Eliza:

Yeah. Okay. So first of all, um. A little side story was in two thousand, from 2023, basically, I had never read, like, read many fiction books. I was always reading nonfiction constantly, and I challenged myself to read fiction and I got really hooked on fantasy books. And I'd read, I read like 45 in six months. Like, I got really into it. Akatar set me off, if you know, you know, and, um, and something that I have noticed because I specifically like romanticy, so it's like fantasy, which has elements of romance, romance, um, and also the basis of pretty much every romance book, um. And there's, there's another nonfiction book that's really interesting to read. I'm pretty sure it's really old. I think it was like written like the seventies or something, but I think it's called In the, In the Garden of Desire. And essentially it talks about what women fantasize about the most compared to men. And it's really interesting how much women fantasize and crave on a deeply biological level, that stress and that excitement and every. single base, I remember I listened to a podcast about a psychologist talking about how she actually went through a severe romance novel addiction. Like it was so severe for her and it's because it mimicked that adrenaline and cortisol where it's, um, an average woman, maybe, you know, she's just going through her life and then she meets a werewolf. a vampire, a dragon, whatever it is, um, someone that is this tall, avoidant, brooding, um, like sexy, mysterious, and he doesn't give anyone else attention except for her. And then when they start having sex. It's so like erotic and passionate. And that is why these books are written this way, because that is what appeals to women, especially when they're written by women. They're like, I know what's gonna, I know what's going to like draw you in. And the psychologist that was talking about her addiction to romance and erotic novels was said that she literally would just read all the way up, like until the first sex scene. And then as soon as they finally. Fuck. She's like, close the book, open the next one. Because that was all the exciting part. And even I, I'm someone that I've always been, um, I have been a securely attached person, but I also have like major people pleasing, um, history. Um, so I can resonate to some things, but even me, that's like, Exciting to me. I'm, I'm nine books into this one series and there's so many like smutty scenes in it. And now I'm like, now that these couples are end game, they're fated, whatever, fated mates, and they've been having sex for fucking nine books. I just skipped through it because it's no longer exciting to me, even. So it's something that appeals to us on such a deep biological level. But. Anything that happens on a biological level doesn't mean that it's meant for you. And I think that that's like, people always look into these signs being like, if I feel this attraction, if I feel this spark, if I feel this energy, it means something. Often it means the opposite. And, you know, like the Buddhists will say that you should. Be with someone that ignites peace in you, not fire. Um, and I think that that's something I think is really important for a lot of people to start their journey in rewriting as one, what am I actually going to be seeking here? Because you can't expect to fill that same level because the line between passion and stress is so fine when it comes to sexual intimacy. So. One way that I talk to people about how do we rewire this is the same way that we can heal, like the way that you work with your clients on rewiring themselves to know that they're worthy of, um, healthy and fulfilling relationship, that, um, healing those abandonment wounds, those worthiness wounds, et cetera, it's almost done the same, um, with sexual intimacy, but Because of the way our brains work and compartmentalize, it's hard to take all the learnings that we learned for our romantic relationships and our self worth and esteem and confidence, and then apply that to sex and intimacy. It's almost like you have to go through a separate journey for that and understanding that because it's so deeply stored in our body and we have very different narratives and understandings around our sexual intimacy. And it's harder to make that link between intimacy and. Um, relationships and the way that we think and process and perceive in life. So when it comes to that rewiring aspect, it's amazing how much you can use your brain to rewire the way that you view and perceive sexual intimacy and your body will follow along with that. And so something that, um, I often. Share with my clients as a really, even just especially couples as a really amazing, like sexual engaging, um, connection is, well, first of all, I remember years and years ago, there's probably like a 20 year old documentary I watched about sex workers and this really sparked my interest. And she was sex workers for people that had. Physical disabilities and someone that, um, the sex worker was working with, he had no physical sensation like chest down and he was really sad because he couldn't experience sexual intimacy and she works with this client. We're basically using, um, just. The way the power of the mind, they were able to rewire his brain that so that he developed sexual satisfaction from touching his finger, like his pinky finger. And he had the exact same sensation of his genital being touched just through the power of rewiring. So you're not stuck in this way. You're not stuck in these patterns. You can absolutely rewire your brain to be like having connection that is validating, that is safe, that is secure. Is going to be the most erotic thing for you in a healed journey. And the tangible thing that I tell my clients that is almost like of a tantric, um, approach to sex, where I will say, go face chest to chest, even tantric. It's like you often, you don't do it in a bed. You might go on like the living room floor or somewhere. Like you get a little rug out and fireplace. If you have one, ideally get one. If you don't just kidding. Um, but going like chest to chest and really just exploring people's body and each other's body and tuning in on like a meditative state, like, don't even take the goals of pleasure and, um, orgasm and each other's sexual satisfaction outside of the equation and just focus on the sensation that you're experiencing. So I'm not saying, you know, lie her down and go straight to, you know, her hotspots. I'll say like stroke her hair for a minute or stroke from her shoulder to her arm. Just like really like this. And when he's touching her body and he's doing this like gentle, um, exploration on an. On a non sexual level to begin with, what he is sending and he is emitting is appreciation and love. And he's focusing on her beauty, like the softness of her skin. So he's tuning in on a mindful way and she's able to tune in on a, how amazing the sensation feels when his fingertips lightly brush my hand or put my hair behind my ear, or when you have those moments of eye contact. And so by doing that in a place that we are safe and secure, and we're feeling Emotionally safe above everything else. Then we can learn that this is where the real eroticism is. And when you heal this and you, you experience that sex on that level is so much more fulfilling and it is so much more impactful. And a lot of people say, you know, like sex, um, even with anxious attachment aside, or like, or sex after, um. Three years or two years is so boring, but you can, even in those long term relationships, they, it should be getting better with time as your connection develops and your bond develops. Um, but we just kind of let these things fall to the wayside. So my key is be so intentional with it and be as present as possible. And as an anxious attached person, it's difficult to be present in our own bodies rather than externalizing that and focusing on What they're doing or how am I pleasing them or that experience, but really just taking ownership and authority, which I can see is like what Mimi does so intensely is like helping women like develop their own authority and sense of like safety and self worth and self soothing within themselves. And that's going to have to come before you even approach. The intimacy, because if you can't heal that, if that's not healed and you have a very low sense of self worth, you're not going to be able to take ownership and tune into your body and experience that flow, that like meditative flow that should be in sex. Sorry, that was so long. What was the question? Oh

Mimi:

my God, power to everything you just said. Like, oh my gosh, I'm learning so much just listening to you. And okay, let me just try and direct my thoughts. The question I want to ask you because there's so much I could go into there. Okay. So the key thing. One thing that just stuck out to me is, as you said, for people who are anxiously attached, one of the key things they need to focus on is learning to create that sense of safety for themselves in their own bodies. And that's going to help first of all, to set the foundation to then be able to go into intimacy in a way where you can feel into. Tune into what's happening into your body. Um, also maybe around feeling safe to go into physical intimacy in a deeper way and actually focus on your pleasure and receiving, as opposed to just, am I good enough for this person? Are they enjoying what I'm doing? Are they liking it? Yeah. Okay.

Eliza:

Yeah. So for, and

Mimi:

that's such an amazing, um, suggestion you gave for the tantric side of things and just focusing on connection and seeing that as the. Eroticism in the relationship. What about for people who aren't currently in a secure relationship? Let's say it's, or yeah. So for people who are kind of on that healing journey, they're still sort of anxiously attached, but they're actively working to become more secure and they're actively dating. What can they do to set themselves up for success and success being not falling into that trap? Addictive cycle of just relying on sex and intimacy to build the connection because yeah, and as well, like in, in casual dating, or if you are dating for a relationship, the other question that comes to my mind is when is the right time to be intimate with someone? Because I know, I know that can be subjective, but I'm interested to hear your opinion on. Is there a certain amount of time you recommend someone who is on that healing journey should wait before getting into sex and what should their approach be?

Eliza:

Yeah, okay, really good question. So, I think that so much of this comes down to a really, really deep level of self awareness and It's incredible how much 99 percent of people will go out, even I fall into this trap. Sometimes I can go days with it, where we fall into a trap of going on automatic and we're just being led by, um, our beliefs, our lens that we have our world. And we're just flowing through life on auto drive without actually tuning into the decisions that we're making. And. What we're doing. So often we're like, okay, I've just met someone. We've had a really great connection. Now we'll do sex to just secure this. Now I'm going to lock, I'm going to lock in and have sexual intimacy to really prove that to me. And when we lack that self awareness, that is just an instinct that will be so natural to us that we're not cognitively thinking, okay, he's cool. Let's do that. Let's have sex. And say, we'll be thinking. Wow. That was such a great date. I'm so incredibly, um, sexually attracted to them. And if you feel it in your body, you feel that like spiciness and that's how you want to connect. So it's happening on a much deeper level. So when you are dating, um, or when we're approaching dating, we have to do it, especially as an anxiously attached person. So mindfully where we are putting a lens on ourself and you don't have to do this forever, by the way. And so don't let it. Don't let the pressure, um, feel overwhelming, but we have to put a lens on ourself and really look at what are the actions that we're taking here? What are the desires that are coming up? What is coming up in our body? And what does this mean? Do you feel that anxiety and stress? Can we tune in and be like, what's going on for me here? Because often when we feel that anxiety and stress, our immediate thing will be like, how can I self Sue that. So maybe it's, um, I'm going to text him and, or maybe I'm going to stalk his Instagram account and see how many women he's following. If he sees he's in contact with, or maybe I'm going to go in binge eat, or maybe I'm going to go and try and develop the sexual intimacy. What are we trying to do in order to soothe and understand what is the need here that is really needing to be met? So anytime you approach physical connection. Stop for 30 seconds and ask yourself, what is it that I'm actually wanting to be met here? Because often it's something like, I want validation, I want approval, I want proof that they're not going to ban me. And if we can tune in and understand that, then we can redirect ourselves. Or maybe it's just like, I want sexual intimacy and I want sexual pleasure, which is likely to happen anyway, because It can ignite things in us that are stored in our central nervous system regardless. And it's going to bring those feelings on. Even if we're consciously aware that this is what's happening. This is the pattern that I'm about to cycle in and see again. So when it comes to how often, or when is the right time, the right time is when you decide it's the right time, but it's also being a very aware that this sexual interaction is not. To prove something to me, it is not to lock them in and they are not, um, I don't want to say the word obligated, but let's just pretend I can think of a better word right now, but they're not obligated to, um, romantically connect with me because I've had sexual intimacy with them. Or perhaps if you want to have like a very streamlined, I can only connect with romance. In, um, I can only have, um, sexual intimacy if there's a romantic connection, then you need to have that romantic connection already established before you seek intimacy and understand that some people, um, really are like, I know for myself that I am a very like, like warm person. I'm a very physically affectionate person. I'm a nurturing person. And then when I was like. dating, um, men back in the day, back in the day, um, so often I had men feel that I was way more like in love with them when I didn't even have feelings for them because they hadn't been used to a woman, um, being so like validating or nurturing or whatever it was. So if we're interpreting someone else's. See, this is a warning, I guess, that we interpret other people's, um, affection or banter or humor or, um, intimacy as, as ways that we can prove they're intimate, they're into me, but that's actually no longer the measure that you're going to take because some people are just fucking physically, if Affectionate and they want to have sex and they're really nice and they look in your eyes and you feel like it's love. It's not. And you have to just take fucking ownership and start asking it outright. I don't care if you ask on the first date, I don't care if you ask it on the third day, start saying like, what are you seeking? This is what I'm wanting. Like know what it is that you actually want and start verbalizing it because enough is enough. With the, I'm too, like, you know, I don't want to hurt, I don't want to push them away. If that pushes them away, then good fucking riddance. Like, see you fucking later, okay? We want them to be pushed away if they're uncomfortable with you asking, what are your intentions? And I can tell you this, as a woman, that I have dated a really embarrassing amount of men. Okay. I'm not going to put a number on it, but look, I've been around the block. Okay. A few times. And I am always been someone, um, that, you know, I came from a people pleasing nature. I was very, very insecure. I've gone through my own journey and now I fucking own it. And I was straight out the bat, ask them, I don't care if I ask them on the, you know, like where they're at immediately and not once has it. Ever, ever been, oh, whoa, that's too intense. And part of that isn't, is because, um, maybe it's not as scary as we think. And part of that is because I know how to find men that are emotionally intelligent and that's what I seek and that's what I'm attracting. So just start fucking owning it. And if someone gets scared away by you expressing what you want and desire in a relationship or in an intimate relationship, then fuck off with them. Like, why would you want to fuck them?

Mimi:

Fuck yes! Oh my god, say it again for the people in the back. I, bringing the heat and the tough love and I'm so here for it because I think sometimes we do need to hear that, that tough love just to like snap ourselves out of it a bit and take ownership over what it is that you want and stop being so afraid to voice it because as you said, if you keep living in that state of fear and walking on eggshells and not saying what you really want, then you're never going to be in the right relationship for you where you do feel seen and heard and accepted and loved for exactly who you are and meet someone on the same page with what you want. So I love that so much. And okay. So getting clear from the get go. So first of all, get clear on what you want. Are you looking for a relationship? Do you want to stay casually? Like what is it that you want? And then asking the people you're going on dates with from the get go. So in your opinion, you're saying. Go for that, even on the first date, like ask them outright, what are you looking for?

Eliza:

Yeah, I think so. And also though, if you don't know where you're at, like I was working with a client last week and she was like, I don't know what I want. And I said, well, make your theme word, make your experience be about exploration. I'm just here to connect with people. I'm just here to like. Have fun and create banter and flirt. Like that's what I want. And that helps her take the pressure off that. But knowing that even in that sense, she has a clear picture of what it is that she's actually seeking from this interaction so that our central nervous system. Isn't in the driver's seat and us and our intentions and our boundaries are always in the driver's seat. So when it comes to like relationships, the first thing I tell my clients, when they're like, I want a healthy relationship, like, what are your core needs, what are your core values? What are your non negotiables? And they're like, well, I'll, you know, figure that out along the way. And I'm like, no, we know that now we need to know that right now. Fuck right now. We're writing this down and you are not budging on those core non negotiables because what I see happen all the time, especially with men is that, uh, um, and these are the men that are really seeking and nurturing and loving relationship is that they will say, um, I really want. You know, a partner, I want to find someone and they're yearning for love so deeply that the first person that gives them attention and validation and soothes part of what they've gone through, they're like, you're the one, I mean, and I'm like, okay, well, you know, you do have a history of dating an emotional, uh, sorry, unavailable women and she's literally moving to Canada. So I do see a pattern recycling and then he's like, no, this is, sorry, if you listen to this, he's going to hate me because I always use him as an example, but he's like, no, I'm going to do it anyway, because she's different because she, she really likes me. And this is the way there's actually a part of our brain. And this is, you know, very well researched. There is a part of our brain that will offer rationalizations to us. That seems so logical that we immediately believe it. And some of these rationalizations that when you say to someone else or you're unaware, feel so. so real to us that we don't understand why this was like an interesting thing that was studied where it was like two people that had a specific, um, I think it was like a brain injury or something like that. And they had, they were shown an object that they could physically see and another object That was in out of sight, but they could also see, but their brain wasn't registering because they had like left brain, right brain disconnection. Basically they were shown two objects, but they only could register that they had seen one object based on the way that their eyesight works because of their injuries. And when the, um, the person that was testing them said, what did you see? Or what came to mind for you? They'd be like, well, I, I saw the hammer, but, um. Interestingly, what's in my mind is, um, the, the other object that was there, the red ball. And they'll be like, Oh, why are you thinking about a red ball? And then their brain will come up with some really rational excuse. They'll be like, Oh, it's because my son told me three months ago that he wanted a red ball and that he asked me to buy it. And they're not lying. This is just something that their brain has put to the forefront of their mind to offer a rational. excuse for that. We immediately believe. So this is what happens when you lack a little bit of self awareness as well. So we will have these rational explanation. Well, it's different. This person did this. This person said this, and we're so unaware of it because we're rationalizing in the same way that it's like closure where we're seeking closure from a breakup and we're looking for ways to connect with them. So we find excuse me. Oh, my God. I can't find my favorite t shirt. I'm going to have to reach out to him and ask him, has he seen it? Even though we haven't spoken in three months, I just have to ask him. And that's our way of our brain, just offering a rational way for us to communicate with them and open a line of communication. So it's really interesting how much our brain does. You can work with you when you know how to hack your brain, you can make it do amazing things, but when you don't know, it really just takes control and takes you in places you don't want to be. Okay.

Mimi:

Bye. Bye. Yeah, that is so true. And I feel like that's the, the reason why having a coach or a therapist or someone who can call you out on these things is so invaluable and important because it happens with my clients all the time. We'll be on one track and then they just deviate back to this other track, like back to what's familiar. And I'm like, excuse me, look what you just did, you know, like I have to catch them. And they're like, Oh my God, I didn't even see that. So it sounds, what I'm hearing is that. Our core desires and driving forces as humans are so powerful that our brain will just do anything it can or grab onto any little bit of information to justify decisions that are going to allow us to direct back to our default patterns and the things that we've always done. Yes, exactly. Okay. And so, and this is the work I do. This is like clients as well, similar to you is we have to get so clear on what are the patterns you've been repeating up until this point, like you need to get aware, we can't just let it be this thing that floats around in our brain. We actually need to put pen to paper and look at it. And then also get so fucking clear on what it is that you want, what it is that you need, what's important to you in a relationship. So that when you go into dating, you almost have this. list to like cross, cross reference with your experiences to help prevent yourself from just blindly going into the wrong connection and doing so with these justifications. So is it a bit of sort of, you have to be really Almost, I want to say like strict with yourself, a bit firm, to if you really want to change, it's you have to keep pulling yourself back to not just what feels good in the moment, like what do I want to just lean into and get carried away with, but actually stopping and checking in with these lists that you've created, these things that are important to you and Making those be the driving force behind what you do or don't do next. Is that correct?

Eliza:

Yeah, I think so. So I have, um, partly yes, but like for me, I'm very much like a type B person. So strict is not something that is in my vocabulary. And I, this is probably my biggest flaw, I'd say, is that I lack a lot of discipline, but I also have been on my own healing journey. And for me, it, and often like I will gauge that response on. The type of personality that my client has, it's going to be completely tailored to where they're at, if they need that, like, I work with a lot of people that are also on the spectrum, um, that have autism, so they're like, I need the fucking rule book outlined to me, this is what it is, and I'm happy to give that to them, but for other people that are like, if you put these rules in, it's going to be super overwhelming and super intense for me, then I will say to them, okay, let's Do a visualization. What is the empowered version of yourself doing? Is she doing this? Is she saying this? Is she acting in this way? No, then we're not doing it. So that's what I do to myself. I'm like, is that empowered version doing this behavior that you're about to engage in right now? Because one thing I actually saw this video today on tick on tick tock, sorry, but whatever, of this 50 year old woman. And she was like, she was like, um. One, she's like, Oh, I can't remember what she said, but basically it was that if someone followed you for a week. Would they be there to say that you are doing the actions it takes to meet who you want to be in the future? And I thought that was so impactful because we have these ideas and then we do a lot of therapeutic work where we feel like it feels productive to us. So we're like, ah, I'm halfway there. I'm really getting there because I'm doing the therapy. The really big part is actually getting into the doing because even when we know these things, like you just said before, we will always default back to our patterns. I actually prep my clients with this and I say three weeks into work. The first two weeks, you're going to be on a high. You're going to feel so good because you're going to feel validated. You're going to get so much education. Week three, you're going to be like, Hmm. You're going to have doubts. You're going to have questions. You're going to be like, well, maybe I actually don't want to do this. Maybe I'm just too tired. Maybe, um, this isn't for me, like this whole therapeutic journey. And that is our subconscious trying to grip us and bring us back into our comfort zone. Because as soon as we start teetering on the edge. That's when it's like, no, no, no, come back to what's comfortable. Come back. So what's familiar. And that's when you have to keep going and taking those steps day in day out. So a way that I like to put it is that the way that you currently have your neural network pathway set up, it's like you're walking through, um. A bushwalk, right? And you're heading from the bush down to the beach and you've been walking the same path over and over and over again. And it's very well worn in. And then you learn a new way, a healthier way, a better way. You find a shortcut to the beach. So you start walking that way. And it's amazing. You're like, fuck yeah. And then all of a sudden you've. You go on a couple of days and you're at the start of the bushwalk again. You're like, which way do I go? Which way was the shortcut? I can't remember. So you default back to the way that is still really wanted, but you have to keep repeating that one action with intention, that shortcut to the beach over and over and over again, until that becomes your new neural network. And that becomes the instinct that you go on. And eventually the other pathway that you once walked down is going to be what's, um. overgrowing and no longer the path that you walk down. So it's really about that intentional repetition alongside self soothing and self regulation and alongside a deep awareness of the patterns that we engage in and why, which is such a, um, a good concoction for healing basically.

Mimi:

I love that. So much. That is such a helpful visualization to, of what to do in those moments where you do feel conflicted and you're like, should I revert back? Should I keep doing this thing? I love that. And also thank you for bringing that other perspective of some people need that more strict approach of, I have my list, I have to keep coming back to it, more discipline. And then for other people, maybe they're more suited to that energetic approach and that visualization of like, what would my empowered self do? Or what would my secure self? Do situation. And I often find people, uh, so much more intuitive and they give themselves credit for, and often they know the answer, like the answers within them. It's just about directing their attention to that answer so they can step into it.

Eliza:

Yeah, that's so true. Sometimes I'll ask my clients a question and they'll be like, I don't know. And I'll say, what would I say? And they've just got the answer. Like that, like, there's just, and now my clients are like, okay, I've got Eliza on my shoulder just fucking constantly telling me, okay, this is what you need to do, this is what you're not doing, and if you need to depersonalize that and externalize that a little bit, that's fine, but the answer is. Always, always within us. Sometimes it's just, we get blocked by our own insecurities. We get blocked by unhealed wounds and that prevents us. Like when you said like, Oh, it's amazing that you knew at 16 what you wanted to do. I've always had my path set out. I studied the exact sequence of things I wanted to do. And that's because when I want something, that's what I'm. Going to do, and I'm not letting like the insecurities, um, hold me back. They have held me back in many aspects of my life. Like maybe it took me a couple of years to get to especially here where I am now, because of my insecurity about showing up online, which ironically now like 12 months in, I just can't believe that was ever something that held me back for so long, for example, but that's. So much of what we lack is self trust, especially with an anxious attachment style. And it is such a core need for every single person. If you can't trust yourself, you're not going to be able to show up in relationship. And when you were talking about, like, you know, we have to advocate for ourselves and speak for our needs and our boundaries, even within our relationships, this is one case where you can't have the best of both worlds. You cannot be a people pleaser and prioritize other people's needs above your own and have. A healthy and fulfilling relationship because it may be that way for five years, but I tell you this now, when you're, um, progressing in your relationship and you've got like a house or you've got kids or you've got issues coming up and the default expectation is that you are there to minimize your own needs and prioritize their needs or whatever it is, then resentment will build. And once resentment starts, it's extremely hard to undo.

Mimi:

Oh my God. I love that so much.

Eliza:

I love the nodding. You're like, yeah. Oh, body nod.

Mimi:

Far out. I could just talk to you for hours. This is so interesting. And I'm just really conscious of time because I know you have to jump off before, uh, 1130. So I just want to ask this question because it's come up a lot in people that I've spoken to and also in my own past relationships is what is your opinion of. Porn in relationships. And I know this is like a big topic, but I just want to get your take on, because I think a lot of people who maybe are a bit more insecure, they can feel very triggered by their partners using porn. Um, even if it is just. Recreationally, it's not like an addiction. It's not all the time, but if it is in the relationship, can you offer maybe some healthy coping strategies for couples to navigate that?

Eliza:

Okay, I'm going to be giving you the answer you probably don't want to hear because I know that when we look at like anxious attachment and we're like, look, this is a reality that 70 to 80 percent of men engage in this and blah, blah, blah. That, by the way, I made that stat up just then off the top of my head. I don't, I don't, that's not the real stat. that, but a lot, majority of men do or did. And, um, when we look, okay, what's the secure version of ourselves is we have to, um, step back from that and realize this doesn't mean something about us. We don't have to create a narrative about that and blah, blah, blah. All that might be like the go to when you Google it or chat dbt. Like, what do I do about this? But my opinion is, um, I, this is actually a massive, massive passion of mine. Um, is. Porn and the impact on the brain and the impact on your relationships and there is absolutely no way that I think that this is something that should be tolerated in a healthy relationship. I'm just going to say it how it is. I know it's a little bit controversial, but I think that if you have a boundary on that and that makes you feel icky. It's so terrible for your brain. And not only is it terrible for your brain, it is the impacts that it does. And there's so much research on the way that you view other people, the way that you view, um, women, the way that you view intimacy is changed during your sexual interactions. And also it's. Not only that, the way that porn is developing and AI is developing, I'm like obsessed with researching AI and there's been research that's been done that when there's like, you know, virtual reality, and a lot of people use VR for porn now, right? There is so much research that shows when this was studied, that when people engage in virtual reality porn, they get much higher levels of satisfaction and enjoyment compared to when they have sex. Sex with a real person so we can fuck off with the reason. Well, at least they're not real. Like they're actually getting more sexual satisfaction because they're catering their porn viewing to their own direct needs and desires without someone to have boundaries, without someone to advocate for themselves. So. I think that if you, by the way, I'm speaking of someone that's in a monogamous relationship here. Everyone has different rules in their relationship and different boundaries in their relationship, and that's fine. But for the people that are uncomfortable with this, I'm speaking so passionately because I see so many people turn away from that and be like, I need to numb my discomfort. You can speak up and say, this is not something that I want to tolerate. I don't think that it's healthy for the brain. I don't think it's healthy for the relationship. And I also don't think it's healthy to, um, project your sexual fantasies. On to another couple or person or whatever online, if there's something that they're engaging in, in your relationship that makes you feel insecure and makes you feel unworthy, then they should not be engaging it. It's like, why is the internet come so far where they now say, yeah, you know what, your partner should not be following Instagram. You know, slutty Instagram girls on, I shouldn't use the word slutty because female empowerment, but you know what I mean? Like following those Instagram models on Instagram, we're all happy to say, no, they shouldn't be doing that. But then why are we tolerating porn use if that's not allowed? Like what, you know, like why we tolerate this. It's because we all have, um, as women, especially, we have very, very deeply tied, um, Uh, habits of numbing and minimizing our own needs, especially for something that is so common amongst men. Now, with that all being said, if you're someone that is totally fine with that, and you engage in that, and you want your partner to engage in that well, and that doesn't hurt you, and that feels like it's something that's enhanced your relationship or, um, excites you, then go for it. This is just, I'm speaking to the people where it makes them feel worse. It's not something that you have to develop like this. Blocked through in this armor too.

Mimi:

I am really feeling that so deeply and That has even informed me so much because I really feel like, as you've said, that I'm noticing this narrative and this belief that I think has become so ingrained in society that it's just normal for men to watch porn. And it should just be accepted and it's just something they do and it doesn't mean anything about you and you know, you shouldn't, you're like, you're not allowed to tell a man that he can't do that because it's,

Eliza:

yeah,

Mimi:

it's not a reflection of how he feels about you. And I've certainly fallen into that trap. And I think. What you've just said is like such a permission slip for people to say that if this makes you uncomfortable, if this is a boundary for you and it does not make you feel good in your relationship, you are allowed to say that, and you're allowed to say that this is not, I don't feel that this is healthy, this is a boundary for me, and I don't want to, I'm not available to be in a relationship where this is present. Yep. Yeah. And I think that is so fucking empowering. And I mean. What would you, last question on that, what would you say to someone who communicates that with their supposedly secure, healthy partner and the partner pushes back and has, like, they aren't willing to drop it or they're just really resistant to the idea of that? What do you say to that person then?

Eliza:

This is funny because I've actually worked with men who were sent to me by their girlfriends. And, um, they're not willing to look, they're not willing to drop that. And they've had that exact thing. And they're like, why should I have to, you know, cater her and her insecurities? Why do I have to stop this? It's so like, it means something to her, but it means nothing to me. And I'm like, well, if it means nothing to you. Then why do you have to engage with that and prioritize that above the needs of your partner and the basis of all relationship, the very most important foundation is respect. So we determine what makes us feel respected. And I said, the only way I could get through to this client eventually was I said, well, if she went around saying that your friend was like super sexy and she wanted to have sex with him, how would you feel? And he said, disrespected. And I said, well, how does she feel when you are getting off to viewing other women and couples online? It's disrespect. Um, that's how she interprets that. And she's not wrong for feeling disrespected in that setting. So if you feel that you can engage, have that in your relationship and you feel respected, then go for you. But if that feels disrespectful and your partner is not willing to budge on that, then what there will more than likely be more ways than one. In which you are being disrespected in your relationship because it's highly unlikely that this is the one and only way that they are not willing to respect you in your relationship. There will be other ways and sometimes that's going to like, uncover that for you, but every single person in their relationship deserves to feel.

Mimi:

Wow. Okay. So that, yeah, that really is the, the cornerstone of relationships is like, if you kind of heard that before, if you, if you lose respect for your partner and you can't honor that, then the relationship doesn't really stand much of a chance. So I love that you came back to that and just helped to reframe that of, well, it doesn't matter what the action is. The feeling is the same. The feeling of disrespect is the same. And just to paint that in a different light. For your client, for that male to see that it's the same thing and that if you want the relationship, then there's going to need to be sacrifices of maybe some of your more selfish desires and a prioritization of your partner's needs and for them to feel respected. Thank you so much for your take on that. And I think that is just the most powerful way to end this conversation. And I know so many people, especially women are going to just be thanking you for that. And. Oh my God, I might need to get you back on for a second episode at some point because this has just been so insightful and informative and helpful and powerful. So for people who are listening who are already obsessed with you, as I am, where can they find you and how can clients work with you? Like what offerings do you have in the ways that you help your clients? Tell us everything.

Eliza:

Thank you. Um, so thank you so much for that, by the way. That was so much fun. I'd love to come back on again. Um, you can find me on Instagram. Unfortunately, I have the most longest Instagram handle in the world and it's Eliza Joy Therapeutic Coaching. Maybe Mimi can put it in the show notes. We will link it all in the

Mimi:

show notes.

Eliza:

So, um, the way that people can work with me is I do one on one. Um, I can do like a, I do a month of voice note and messenger coaching for people that aren't, um, comfortable with doing the online zooms, or they don't have, um, have the time or capacity to do so where I send you, we do like voice note therapy every day. Um, and there's a high levels of accountability. And other than that, I have a three month and a six month, um, one on one intensive way to work together, which is, um. Access to me Monday to Friday via voice note or messenger, um, face to face fortnightly zooms and, um, access to the masterminds that I have running year round as well. And I also have masterminds if that's more of your thing as well, the group setting. So there you go.

Mimi:

Okay. And so for those of you who don't know, a mastermind is a group setting. So you run a group program.

Eliza:

Yes, yes, I run group programs and I do change them, um, all the time and then one I'm going to be doing is actually next is about doing the inner work so that you can have healthy and fulfilling relationships and understanding where your patterns and cycles are stemming from and how they are controlling our, uh, or influencing our attraction and what activates us in a relationship and how to heal that. And I'm sure it's

Mimi:

going to be fucking. Epic. Eliza, thank you so much for being here. Everyone make sure you go and check her out. I'm going to leave the links to your Instagram, your podcast and everything in the show notes below so everyone will get that. And I hope to have you on again very soon.

Eliza:

Thank you so much. Appreciate it. Thank you.

If you enjoyed today's episode, hit that subscribe button and leave a review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Share this episode with your friends and come find me on social so we can hang out between episodes. All the links are below in the show notes.