Ep #23: Coming Out Later in Life, Queer Dating & Anxious Attachment with Inez Bye

This episode is for every human who’s ever thought: “Am I actually into men… or am I just addicted to their validation?” 😳 …or “I think I might be queer, but I’m terrified of what that means.” Today I’m joined by the brilliant Inez Bye - queer content creator, business coach, and one of my real-life besties, for a no-holds-barred convo on coming out later in life, dating women for the first time, and how anxious attachment still finds a way to sneak in… even when you finally feel like you’ve met “your people.”

We’re talking:
• That moment when you realise you might be queer (and what happens when you suppress it for years.)
• Dating women after only ever dating men and why it can actually bring up more anxiety, not less.
• The fantasy of queer dating vs. the reality.
• Pedestalling queer women, ignoring red flags, and confusing emotional chaos with connection.
• The surprising way dating women changed Inez’s relationship with her body (and why it might do the same for you.)
• Rewriting your standards and detaching from the male gaze for GOOD!

🎧 Tune in now—and if it speaks to you, send me a DM on Instagram, I would love to hear what landed for you.

CONNECT WITH INEZ!
Follow her on TikTok: @nezzysparkles
Find her on Instagram: @inezbye

MIMI SOCIAL MEDIA
Come say hi 👋 (or DM me your biggest takeaway) over on Instagram here!

Got something you'd love me to record an episode on? DM me and let me know!

Transcript

0:00

You are listening to the Secure Love Club podcast. I'm your host, Mimi Watt. Hey friends. Welcome back to the club. Today's episode is a raw, powerful, and incredibly important conversation with my dear friend Anes by, if you've ever questioned your sexuality, felt confused, navigating, dating outside of heteronormative expectations, or struggled with anxious attachment when stepping into queer relationships, this. Is the episode for you? Anez is a queer content creator, business coach, and one of the most refreshingly, direct and confident women I know, as well as one of my dearest friends. We've been very, very close since 2020, and in this chat she opens up about her journey of coming out later in life after years of dating men. And the very real emotional rollercoaster of stepping into her queerness in her mid twenties. We talk about the moment she realized she might be a lesbian, what held her back from exploring it, and how internalized patriarchy and the need for male validation shaped her early dating life. She also shares the very real messy experience of dating a woman for the first time, how she pedestal queer women and ignored red flags, and how anxious attachment showed up hard in those early queer relationships. I know that if you're going through this, a lot of you will relate to that second adolescence feeling that she describes where even though you're a grown adult, it feels like you're dating for the first time all over again. In this chat, we bust the myth that dating women is easier. We talk about what it actually means to decenter men from your self-worth, and how being with women shifted the way that Anez saw her body and herself in a way that really changed her relationship with herself forever. Now I do wanna offer a content note before we dive in. This episode includes open and vulnerable discussions around sexuality, internalized shame, anxious attachment, and emotionally unhealthy relationship dynamics. I know that is quite common on this podcast. However, if that is sensitive territory for you right now, please listen with care. Wrapping up this episode, Anez Drops one of the Reales pep talks I've heard in a while to anyone listening who's curious about exploring their sexuality, but maybe terrified of what it might mean. So if you've ever thought, what if I'm gay or what if I'm bi? This, uh, this is one you don't wanna miss. It's honest, it's funny, a little bit spicy in true and s form, and it's full of those aha moments that, uh, I'm sure you will find a lot of resonance and validation with. If this is something you're exploring or even if you're not. For my straight friends, there is still so much gold, so many gems in this episode that really hit home for me and I know they will for you. So my friends, thank you for being here. And let's dive in. Nez, welcome to the Secure Love Club podcast. I'm so excited to have you on. How are you doing, Mimi? I'm good. How are you? Do you know something so funny, and maybe this is like a good thing in case people are wondering how your name is pronounced, because for ages I pronounced your name. The, the emphasis was on the wrong salable, as they say. Because didn't I produce to pronounce it Mimi? But it's Mimi. Yes, yes. It's a subtle difference. But I feel like it's good for your audience to know it. I appreciate that. You know, just quickly for everyone listening, when I was just in Italy recently with one of my other good friends, Rachel, she has been calling me Mimi since we met and since we lived together back in 2020. And it was one of those situations where I just never corrected her. And then it's, it's always been in the back of my mind. And then one day we were in the car in Italy and she said my name like that, and I was just like. I'm just gonna say something. And so I just made a joke of it and I was like, it's so funny that you say Mimi. And she was like, what do you mean? And I was like, well, it's Mimi and she. Are you fucking kidding? She's like, so you've just not told me this for five years. I've just been saying your name wrong for five years. And I was like, yeah. I was like, honestly, I'm pretty sure you did the same thing to me as well. I'm pretty sure you were like so funny that you call me Mimi, like, where does that come from? And I was like, ha. It's, um, yeah, I think, I feel like the Mimi doesn't always roll off the tongue as easily so people can default to Mimi, but alas anyway. Do you know why, I just had a thought before we started recording was this like, feels like such a full circle moment because I had a flashback to when you and I were in. You were over at my apartment in Bondi. Yeah, back in 2020. The same one I lived at with Rach, and that just feels like such a lifetime ago. And we were such babies. And you interviewed me on your podcast and that was so long ago. Oh my God. I can't even remember what we talked about. I think, I don't know, probably online business. What else do, it's one of our major, it's crazy shared passions, literally. And then we did an interview in Bali when you were living there last year together for my podcast as well. I've been on your pod a few times, so Right. Honestly, take me back that you are here now. So for those who don't know you, some people may, because I feel like we've cross pollinated our audiences a few times. Um, but for those who don't know you, can you tell us a little bit about yourself, about what you do, and just what's lighting you up right now? What's making you excited? God. Big question. I'm currently on the hunt for, um, a new apartment and I wanna live in a share house with some other people.'cause I do run my own business. Um, so that I have some interaction and I feel like I'm having the same conversation a million times a day where like the new housemates are like, so. What do you do for fun? And it's like, or like, what are your hobbies? And I feel like I'm being asked the same question again. Um, but I, as mi said, my name's Inez, that's how you pronounce it. But I feel like,'cause my name's a little bit more quirky, people always ask me how to pronounce it so I don't have to be in that awkward conundrum that you are in. Um, and I'm a 31-year-old business owner, online business owner that lives in Sydney. I've known Mimi. How long have we known each other for ages? We've been through many different places. I think it was 20. Right, right. Before, was it just before lockdown? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, and I, my main kind of gigs that I do at the moment is I'm an online business coach for service-based business owners. So more like small businesses like personal trainers, life coaches, nutritionists, psychic doers, all that good stuff. And that really came from, um, me running my own online personal training business for. Probably, I mean, it was years and years. I started my personal training business on the gym floor when I was 19, and I also have a little part-time gig being a content creator on TikTok. And TikTok is more where I share about my queer dating life and just talking about the lesbian experience. And I'm someone that only, only, I say only, but only came out when I was 26. I think Mimi's only known me as a raging lesbian. I don't even think you've known me as someone that has had a boyfriend. Right. Yeah, that's true. When we met you, were in the beginning stages of exploring your queerness. Yes, exactly. So it's been such a big journey, but something that really helped me in 2020 is being able to go on TikTok and finally tapping into a queer community because the TikTok algorithm just shows you such a wide array of life people and a different like, I don't know, just. Yeah, different people and populations that I've never had access before. Like on Instagram, I feel like it's very easy to get stuck into like the same influences or the same interest industry or the same echo chamber. So that's why I'm really passionate about sharing my story and I. Just having a way to tap into the queer community on TikTok. And let me tell you, the lesbians really come through on TikTok, so I've loved creating content on there, doing a few brand deals, and I'm just obviously really excited to talk about the queer dating experience, especially when you come out a little bit later in life, because I'm someone that would identify as having a. Recovering, um, anxious attachment. I mean, I've done the, you know, attachment style quiz a million times, and when I first did it, I was really like typical anxiously attached. And I feel like in certain situations that can obviously flare up again. But for the most part, I would say I'm pretty secure and I can confirm that. When I did the test most recently, it came up as secure. Fuck. Yeah. Yeah, it did. Hell, yeah. Thank you for sharing, sharing some of that insight into where you're at right now in your journey. And I love your TikTok. So one thing I love most about Nez is just how, like direct you are nonchalant. Like not giving a fuck. You will just say what's on your mind and in a very authentic way, um, but with a lot of experience behind what you say. And so. I highly recommend people listening. Go and follow Nez on TikTok. It's NZI sparkles. Yeah, that's right. My queer alias. Yes, yes. Um, we'll link all of that below in the show notes, of course. But can you, to kind of get us started, can you take us back to the moment you realized you wanted to date women and because you said you were dating men before this, and what sort of fears. And maybe expectations came up for you in those early days? Yes. Oh my God, so many. I literally just did a video on TikTok, um, sharing about my coming out journey, so I can give you the spark notes of that essentially. But I always, maybe not always, but I, I, I, I had a boyfriend from a pretty young age, so I had. My first boyfriend, I don't know, probably when I was like 13. I mean, it was very PG at that time, but I feel like for me, having a boyfriend was a marker of popularity and like being a normal person. So I feel like that was something I always. Sought out even in high school'cause that's what everyone else did. And I really liked the comfort of having like one person obsessed with me. And I've just found the attention of men was quite easy to get at that stage. Which sounds kind of weird, but I guess, I don't know, we'll talk more about this. Um, like the attention of men, like all the boyfriends that I've had, it's just so interesting'cause when I reflect on the way that I was in relationships. With men versus how I am with women. Um, and we've spoken about this before, I think Mimi, but like all my boyfriends were just, and again, this sounds very up myself, but you know, whatever, uh, I'm only human. And um, all my boyfriends were just like, obsessed with me and I just was, I loved that feeling of having someone obsessed with me, but like. I would kind of get annoyed at it or I would find myself needing like, time away from them or I wouldn't want them, like I remember distinctly being like, I want, I don't wanna be touched by them. Um, and I would just find myself getting really like. Just tired of it, kind of. And I remember this really distinct moment. I was in my ex-boyfriend, so I had a boyfriend during high school from the age of like 15 to probably 18, 19 or something like that. So a long-term relationship. And I remember being in his house and we were cuddling on the couch and this thought plopped into my brain, and I think I was 16 of. Maybe you're a lesbian. And I was like, absolutely not. That's too overwhelming. I thought immediately about like, what am I gonna tell my boyfriend? What am I gonna tell my parents? What are all my school friends gonna think? Like I went to an all girls school in a pretty, I would say, affluent. Affluent, aff. Affluent. Affluent. I can't speak. Yeah, that's the one that I'm looking for. Area in Sydney where? There were no gay people. There was no outwardly, I mean, I had some gay male friends, but obviously that experience is quite different. Different, um, but I never met a lesbian. I never, my parents didn't have any lesbian friends. There were no lesbians at school, and I just thought that coming out I. As a gay person or bi or anything outside of the straight pathway that I saw all around me was impossible. Like I just couldn't fathom how that was something I could possibly explore. So I really pushed that thought down deep, deep, deep down, and really just went deep back into the closet, if you will. Mm-hmm. And then, um. You know, probably when I was like in my early twenties, I always had that thought in the back of my mind, but I kind of rationalized it as well. Everyone kind of thinks like that. You know, everyone would probably date a girl if they had the opportunity, like, and to some extent, I still think that's kind of true. Like we can never say never. Even if you identify as fully straight, like I have so many friends now that I've come out who I speak to and I'm like, so would you never date a woman? And they're like, well. No, I like, I do wanna be married to a man, but again, I feel like if the, the person struck, struck up the right person, maybe it could happen. Um, but in my early twenties, I was having these thoughts and one of my other friends, um, messaged me and she was like, oh, I think I'm, I don't think I'm straight. And I was like. Can we say that like it literally was like a brain explosion where I was like the, for the first time another woman had spoken to me about not being straight and it really set off this like chain of events and I naturally had a boyfriend at the time, a new boyfriend, and I told him about it. He had a gay brother, which was. Really helpful to me.'cause I was like, oh, he'll be accepting of it. And I told him that I thought I might be bi and,'cause that's, at the time I thought I was and he was so unbelievably sweet about it. Um, he literally was like, let's just have an open relationship. You can explore it. And I was like, great. That sounds amazing. I get to have this man that's obsessed with me and I can also explore this side of myself that feels really vulnerable. Very quickly I started kissing girls and I was like, I'm obsessed with this. I don't wanna kiss you anymore. Like I loved, I loved this guy, but I wasn't in love with him. And as soon as I started kissing other girls, I was like, oh. I was like, whoa, this is all I want to be doing. And then I kind of brought it up to him and I was like, I think I just wanna like be by myself and fully explore this. And that was really hard, like the breakup, you know, losing a best friend and having that person that you can always talk to and a companion that's just like solely dedicated to you. Definitely really, really hard. Um, but then I kind of started to explore, you know, dating other women and as is a bit of a. Um, classic story that happens to a woman exploring her sexuality, or I feel like any person exploring her sexuality. I developed a deep crush on this girl, and we would kiss all the time. Every time we'd be going out, we'd be flirting each other, we'd be touching each other, and then one night she'd just. Fully rejected me and cut it off, and I felt so bad about myself. I felt like I'd lost the only opportunity to explore my queerness because anyone that wants to explore dating women will know that if you go into a normal club or a bar, it's not really like, it's very straight, basically. Like it can be really difficult to. Even me, I don't really look like a gay person. Like so I'm the one that's gonna have to like strike up that conversation. So I was heartbroken for so many reasons.'cause yes, this girl had rejected me, but also I felt like that was my only opportunity. And this was probably when I was about 23. And so, because I felt so like dejected and isolated and I also didn't want to come across as like weird or abnormal. I. Just stopped exploring that side of myself. And then I started working at a gym and there was a guy there who had a crush on me, and then we just started dating again and I was like, you know what? Maybe I'm not that gay. Maybe this isn't for me. Like obviously it's a sign from the universe if it's so difficult, so I'll just date this guy. He's available. He's obsessed with me. I like having that security. And we dated for probably about two and a half years, and then eventually our relationship again. This was a time when I was like just kind of starting my online business. And he was an amazing support for that. Like he knew how to create Facebook ads. He was a graphic designer. He took all of my photos, was really helpful with content. And I remember having this conversation with my therapist and I was like, you know, I just, he's so helpful in my business and like he just gives me so much support. And my therapist was like. That's not a really reason to be in a relationship with someone. And I was like, huh, that's true. So then we broke up and that was right at the start of 2020 and I was like, okay, it's now or never. I'm going to fully commit to dating women and not get into another relationship with men until I've actually seen what this was like. And I was really, really lucky because one of my. Um, one of my other best friends,'cause obviously this is before our time, Mimy, she is straight as an arrow, like, has never questioned her sexuality. She's just married to a man. She said to me like, you really need to explore this, and she really held me accountable to it. She was like, you've been talking about this for the last couple of years. You keep putting it off. It's obviously something that you are. Thinking about, because you bring it up all the time and I want you to fully explore this. And she was such a catalyst to me, like actually holding myself accountable'cause it's really scary. And I knew the first thing that I had to do was somehow find a queer community. And I was listening to this podcast at the time called Bobo and Flex. Did you ever listen to that? Mm, yeah. Yeah. With Flex Mommy and Bobo. Yeah. And they had a Facebook group. And in that Facebook group, I mean, this is all defunct now. They don't do record their podcast anymore, even though I used to live for that. And in the Facebook group, they were like, do any Sydney girls wanna meet up? And I was like, yep, I'm gonna do this. You know, I'm just single. I'm trying to explore myself. I wanna meet new people. I didn't necessarily know that they were going to be. Queer, but the nature of Bobo and Flex's podcast was like quite an open, um, fluid kind of vibe. So I remember catching the bus to Coogee Beach here in Sydney and meeting these people all by myself, and it was such a huge leap of faith. Like I had never done something like that, like going to meet up with a group of randos from the internet just because we listened to the same podcast and I remember. Walking up to these people and meeting them all, and I was so nervous. I almost considered like just ghosting them, canceling, saying I couldn't find them every single step of the way. But I got there and I sat down and all of a sudden I was having conversations that I had never had in my life before. There was half of the group was probably. Bi or gay in some way. And they were all talking about like this guy that they were dating or this person that they were dating or this girl that they were dating and like having sex with women and what it was like to date women and like their ex-girlfriends and stuff. They were all girls and I just was like, my mind just like exploded.'cause I was 25 at the time, she was about to turn 26. And I was like, oh my God, I've never had a conversation like this in real life with someone before. And there was a girl there. Who I thought was kind of cute. And so we all exchanged Instagram, um, handles and basically I was like, cool, there's this girl here, you know, she's bi. I've identified the target and I had to take lots of leaps of faith, but eventually I just like started sliding into her dms. And um, one night we just went out on a date and then lockdown happened and we basically just became each other's. Couple bubble, I can't even remember what it was called. Do I think we would've dated had it not been locked down? Probably not. But was I so happy and excited to be dating a woman? Yes. And this is where like all the attachment style comes in, because honestly, I would've dated anyone that was available as a woman to me, and I kind of did. So. Mm mm Yeah. And then from there, I mean, as soon as I started dating her, I was like, it's only women for me from now on. Right. So from that point it came became very clear that you are not bi, you are a lesbian. You're, you're gay. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. I think I, I think it's like really common because obviously I've had experiences with men in the past and I loved them. And like the sex was, I, you know, sex was good in some aspects, but like the feeling I get of being with a woman and just like having a relationship with a woman and being a lesbian, it's just like. I love it. I don't even know how to describe it. It's just like, feels like something really special and like I now have experienced what it's like to be obsessed with someone, whereas I never felt like that when I was dating men. So, interesting. Thank you for giving us that whole story. I feel like it paints a really vivid picture of your timeline and there's more to the timeline, but. I think just understanding that initial phase of when you had that thought drop in when you were 16 of am I a lesbian? And then the journey of how many years it took. Yeah. To finally take that step to give yourself, like the push you needed or with the help of your friend to get you to confront this part of yourself that it sounds like you were so scared to confront for a long time, which from my understanding is a really. Common experience for people who do start to question their sexuality. And it's, it could be a really scary thing. And what I find interesting as well is the, what you were talking about, you loved being, um, having a man obsessed with you. Mm-hmm. And I wonder, I mean, not to go too far into this conversation because I wanna keep it on a different track, but do you think that there was any sort of like internalized. Patriarchy where you enjoyed having the validation of a man put you on a pedestal. Yeah. Oh my God. The male gaze is so real. That's such a good question. And. It's really hard to escape. Like even the other day, as we know, I'm a full-on raging lesbian. I only date women. I only kiss women all of the above. Right? But even the other day I went to the gym and I could tell that a guy thought I was hot, and I kind of just like flirted with him because I liked the attention, you know? And I really, I came home and I told my housemate, who's also. Queer and she was like, yes. Like I totally understand that because unfortunately we do live in a patriarchy, so sometimes it can be really tempting to get the attention of men because we've been brainwashed essentially into prioritizing and and pedestal the attention. Men. But I think what's different about the way that that attention is received by me is I just see it as a, oh, that's so cute. You know, like, they're so cute that you think you could flirt with me, kind of thing, because I am so detached from needing their validation. But I think it's a really interesting thing when you start dating women because you do go through. And not all queer people do this and lesbians or gay or whatever you identify as, but I feel like for me, I really went through this process of decentering men. And what that means is like. Analyzing the way that you dress and deconstructing the way that you do talk to men and the way that you do, give them attention, because in the past I probably would've been a lot more forgiving of certain men, you know, that I would've walked past in the street, you know, if they had said something to me or done something to me, or just in the way that I hold even my, my sister's married to a man. She has a husband, and like sometimes he'll say things and I'll like call him out on it, not because he is a bad person, he's literally the sweetest angel ever. But I think in the past I would've been a lot more like, oh, you know, men know what they're doing and I don't wanna piss off a man, or I don't wanna fight with a man. Mm. Whereas now, because I'm not so protective of making sure that I get men's approval, which is such a common thing, like if we talk about the male gaze, I'm so much happier to. Say it how it is, and like, if a guy does flirt with me and then they try to get with me, I'm like, bro, I'm a like that. This is not gonna work. Like I, I'm not like scared to like, reject people. Um, and I wish, I wish I could inject that part of me into straight, or even buy women that still date men more because. I think it, it honestly, like I, it, it kind of just like makes people respect you more. And I think what I used to do when I was only dating men and I thought that I was straight, is I would just like appease to their every need. And I wouldn't say what I wanted to say or I wouldn't be myself. But in doing that, I just turn into a very vanilla, boring, bland version of me. Whereas now when I do interact with men, which, you know, isn't that. Frequent. I don't have that many men in my life. I just feel like it, it has been such a change from when I was fully straight to like, you know, being a, a lesbian. Now it's such a different interaction and I do feel like I. I'm not putting myself on a lower, you know, pedestal or whatever that saying is. I don't know if any of that made sense. Yeah. Oh, it makes so much sense and it's such a fascinating conversation. I remember when you and I spoke about this when we were both in Bali together and I was asking you about that and I, I was sort of starting to open my mind to this topic a bit more as well. I was, I remember in Bali I was reading. Florence Gibbons book. Yeah. And she was also talking about when you de-center men. And it really made me stop and think about, well, how much of my daily decisions around the way I look, the way I dress, the way I show up in real life, or both online is filtered through subconsciously. Is this gonna appeal to a man? Is this going to be attractive? And when I really started to question that. I was quite shocked at how much that had been dictating my experience, my lived experience. And so I do remember you talking about that and how, how much you said your life opened up when you finally allowed yourself to decenter men. And I think it's probably such a foreign concept for so many people, especially. Um. Especially women because we are so, as you said, like brainwashed and conditioned to chase that validation. So, yeah, crazy. What was the biggest surprise for you, and maybe it's in that vein or slightly different, when you started dating women that no one warned you about or that you were just like, what hell. Um, so I just wanna say one thing about Decentering men. Yeah. And then I'll talk about the biggest surprise.'cause like there was the other thing about body as well, like your, what your body looks like. That I feel like we had a conversation about, because before dating women, I used to be very self-conscious of my body and how I looked in clothes and whether I was skinny enough and. Again, I wish that all women just slept with another woman just for the sake of their body image. Because I remember sleeping with women and seeing their naked bodies and just being like. Not having these expectations of like, oh, they should have rock hard abs and they shouldn't have rolls in their stomach when they sit down. And certain ways that they looked. And I was able to like appreciate the female form so much more and in such a neutral way that I was then able to start seeing myself in that way. And like anyone that meets me, you will never catch me speaking down on my body or the way that I look, or trying to wear the most flattering clothes. And that's why I feel like. Yeah, I just feel like being able to see your, like women in that wave, and that's the female gaze, right? Because the male gaze might think, oh, they've gotta look a certain way. They've gotta sit or a certain way, they've gotta like move their body in this way. And it's like when you remove that and then you're able to just see it for what it is and appreciate it, you are also able to appreciate yourself more. And that was something that I, I definitely didn't expect, um, when I first started like dating and sleeping with women. But the thing that surprised me, the B the most. When dating women. I mean, wow. What a big question. I think a lot of people, when I first started to come out, because I had dated men for 10 years before I started dating women. So I was really known in my wider circle, you know, family, friends, family, school friends, acquaintances, every single person was like, I'd bump into them on the street. They'd be like, how's your boyfriend? How are the boys? You know, are you going on dates with hot men? And I'd have to constantly, um. Tell them that I was only dating women or this is my girlfriend, or whatever. But often what they would say when I said that I was dating women is like, oh, that must be so much easier. Like, I wish I could date women. And it's such an interesting thing because I feel I can understand where that perspective comes from because you think, oh, woman to woman, you understand each other a little bit better. And I guess stereotypically we think of women as being more emotionally intelligent or more in touch with their emotions sensitive, maybe more thoughtful, however. What I started to realize is dating women is just like dating anyone. The same anxieties come up. Mm, the same miscommunications come up, the same fears of rejection, and are they judging me and do they really like me? It's just dating. It's the exact same thing because you're not just going on a date. When people think about dating women, they're like, oh my God, I wish I could date my best friend. But you know your best friend and you feel secure in that relationship. Whereas when you're dating someone, even if it's a woman or a man or a person, whoever. You are getting to know that person for the first time. And so part of that is going to be understanding each other's emotions, knowing how to communicate to one another. The anxieties of like, are they gonna text me back? Like it's, it's no different, but it's actually harder because you've got that added layer of now society doesn't accept you or it, you know, I think in Australia we obviously live in a very liberal. Country. But when I say they don't accept you, it's like, ha me having to have those conversations constantly with people, and still to this day, I have to, um, I have to correct people when they're like, oh, like I'll say like, oh, I went on a date. And they'll be like, oh, was he hot? And I'm like, well, I only date women. Mm. Still to this day, I have to. Correct people, and it's not easier because they're a woman. It's actually a lot harder because yes, you're da, you're dating a woman, but also there's so many kind of barriers you have to get through. Like even with people assuming that there's like a man in the relationship or that you, um. Are just waiting for the right man to turn you straight, whatever it might be. There's a lot of challenges with it, but it, it did kind of, it did catch me by surprise at how there was still the same anxieties and fears and concerns in dating a woman as there was when you're first getting to know a man too. Yeah, I feel like that busts maybe a big misconception.'cause I have heard that thrown around that people saying, oh, dating women is so much easier than dating men. Um, but. It's really, it's refreshing to hear that in a way that it's, you know, irrespective if it's a man or a woman or, um, like them, they, whoever a person, it's still a relationship and a relationship. Yeah. Is, you know, it takes work and there's so many layers and every person is so dynamic with their own fears, insecurities, past, like their baggage, um, things they're working through. And so no matter who you're dating, like a relationship is a relationship and it, it's gonna take work so. That's really interesting. You've shared before that you used to put queer women on a pedestal in those early days when you first started dating women. Why do you think that happened, and how did it show up for you in your dating patterns? Yes. Oh, this. If I could go back and give myself one piece of advice with dating women, it would be this. Although I think it is unfortunately a rite of passage that you have to go through it to experience it. But when I first started dating women, I. Because I'd been rejected a few times and because it felt so scary to date outside of the heteronormative script, I started dating this person, this woman, the first woman that I got into a relationship with, and I ignored every single red flag along the way because I was just like, firstly, thank God I'm dating a woman. I'll do anything to just like validate my queerness. Um, and I was just like so happy to be seen by another queer woman as opposed to a man. And it can be really easy when you date a queer woman as a woman who has more experience than you in the like, woman loving woman arena to, um, dismiss your own. Thoughts and emotions. Like I would sometimes have questions of like, you know, this person I would say was a stereotypical avoidant, the first woman I ever dated. And I think that's the only like avoidant person I've ever dated. Which is why it's so interesting because people will be like, oh, you know, fuck boys, they're so toxic, they're so this, and I'm like. Girl, just you wait until you date a fuck girl. Like they can be as toxic. Let me tell you. Oh my God. And this person was probably the most toxic person I ever, ever, I remember her. I remember this situation. Yes. This, this was around the time when we started becoming good friends. Yeah. And I was there for this first experience. Yeah. So, yeah. And you know, like honestly, we show nothing but the best. Bless her. She was. At such a moment in time for me. But as I said, like I really don't think we would've dated as well if we were in lockdown. So there was a combination of factors, but I've seen people talk about this on TikTok. Like there was just this big lesbian drama between, um, this real like big name in the queer scene called Shannon Beverage. Do you know her? Have you ever heard of her? Mm, that name does sound familiar, but I don't really follow, I don't know how much, I think she's like an OG Tumblr lesbian. I don't know. She's like big in the social media lesbian scene. Okay. And then she is like a, a lesbian through and through and she started dating this girl called Becca Moore, who had only dated men up until she started dating Shannon. And she said the same thing of like, there was so many situations that happened that if it was a man, I would've broken up with them or gone on no contact or pulled them up on it. But because the Shannon had more experience and was. Seen as like the more queer person, it's so easy to listen to that person and go, oh, well I guess this is normal. Or you're just so much more flexible with them of like, oh, if they don't text me back, then like, maybe that's just a thing that women do and maybe I'm being too psycho. Or you know, if they are putting me down, well I'm just lucky to have the attention of a queer woman, so who am I to pull this person up? Um, and so there was just like so many situations. You know, for example, where I. Was hanging out with this group of people that I had met, the first girl that I dated with, where we were gonna go to a barbecue together. And I had texted her in the morning and said, do you want to go together? And she just didn't respond. And so then eventually I went to the barbecue and she was just sitting there and didn't even say hi to me. If a fucking man did that to me, I would've walked up to her, the the man at the barbecue and being like, why the fuck didn't you text me? And also, why the fuck are you ignoring me? Why are you not saying hi to me? But because I was so. What's that word? I was like, um. Kind of googo eyed for her that I just like couldn't say anything. I couldn't do anything and I'm not someone as Mimi will know who's scared of confrontation. But in that situation with this first woman that I was dating, I was just like so enamored by the potential of like being gay and having this queer woman to like validate me that I. Fully dismissed and sacrificed my own needs and thoughts and feelings and emotions. And it's really hard to, um, kind of divide or like move away from like, oh my God, this person is gonna make me queer because you feel like if I let go of this, or if I fuck up this relationship and I bring up something and they break up with me, or they don't talk to me, then I'm gonna feel really bad about myself. Then I'm gonna lose that opportunity. Mm. Because when you first start dating women, you feel like there's no community. You feel like there's no other queer person in the world. And so there's that real big scarcity element that I know also happens in straight relationships where you clinging so tightly onto one person'cause you're like, oh my God, we've built this connection. We spent so much time together. But as soon as you are having to tell yourself that. Whether it's a man or a woman of like, oh my God, but what if no one ever gets me like this person? Or what if I don't meet another queer person? It's like, now you're staying with them out of scarcity, not because they're actually meeting your needs, benefiting you and uh, the right fit for you. And I think I had learnt that in straight relationships earlier on. But unfortunately, when you do go through queer dating. They say you go through like kind of a second adolescence and I really felt that like all of a sudden I didn't know how to communicate my needs, even though I had no problem yelling at my ex-boyfriends to be like, fuck you do this for me. But all of a sudden I couldn't speak to the, the woman. I just felt like. She had something up me of having more experience. And so if you are someone that is wanting to explore dating some a different gender than what you normally do, I just want you to know that just because someone has more experience in that realm, if it's a queer realm, does not mean that you suddenly have to sacrifice your own needs and you're not allowed to communicate your needs. And something even like my. Um, my sister and her husband remind me,'cause I'm back in the dating scene again, is like, if this was a man, would you accept it? Because I can get a little bit, as I said, gooey for women because that's my, you know, preferred flavor, if you will. And I just have to remind myself like, no, I wouldn't, you know, if this was a man, I would've flicked them off so much earlier. And so even for you, if you're like dating a man at the moment, and you are not gay in any way, but you're just listening to this for the tea. A man is treating you in a certain way. Sometimes I find it really helpful to just swap the genders in general of like, if a man is treating you like shit and bread crumbing you, would you accept this if it was a female friend of yours or like a female in general? Probably not. You know, you'd be like, what the fuck, bitch? And it can be really helpful to kind of like remove that emotion from it, because whatever your gender is that you are into can make you. It can make you a little bit cuckoo. Yeah. That is such a powerful reframe, asking yourself that question. I feel like as soon as you said that, it just like afl, a switch like flick in my brain. I'm like, oh my God. It just creates this clarity really quickly. Yeah. And yeah, that makes me think about what you were just telling and you said you go this second adolescence. I was thinking in my head, I'm like, this sounds what? It's like when you are a teenager and you first start dating boys and you like, you try to be this perfect little thing because you want them to like you and you want their attention. Or it also sounds like being very anxiously attached as so many of our listeners on here are currently working through anxious attachment, and we know that's a very common struggle of really giving the other person all of the power. Yes. Uh, in the relationship, which you know, is stemming from a lack of self-worth, a lack of. Inner security. Um, and so we do downplay our needs and we don't speak up and we let people mistreat us because as you mentioned, as we're coming from that scarcity mindset and we're afraid that, well, if I do anything to fuck up this relationship, I. I'll be alone and that's terrifying. Or I won't meet someone after this person and, you know, whatever your sexuality is, we never wanna be dating from this lens, um, because it's just not conducive to a healthy relationship and it's not conducive to you feeling secure within yourself. So what would you say that when you were in that, that those early stages, what did pedestal, these queer women, what did that. Kind of cost you emotionally, and then what was the turning point in deciding that you deserve more, that like, you're not going to do that anymore. You know, it's like what was it costing you initially? And then when did that start to change for you? Yes, I would be, when I was dating this, um, first woman, I'd be sick. I'd just feel sick all the time. And I feel like if you've got an anxious attachment style, you know what I mean, where you're like, should I text them? Why haven't they responded to me? When are we gonna see each other? And I would just be cycling in my head. All of these really. Um, intrusive thoughts about like, when am I gonna hear from them? Should I text them if they like responded a bit funny? Or if they took too long to respond, I'd be, um, convinced that they were gonna break up with me or that they didn't like me. They didn't wanna talk to me anymore. And I was often having to ask my housemate at the time, like, is this normal? Should I text this person? I feel like my housemate at the time, he was a straight guy. He was just like big on the dating scene, you know? And he was actually a really good person to ask'cause he was like. Just text her if you want. And that would be my advice for now of like, if you're wondering where someone stands with you, obviously don't text'em to the point where it's like 20 texts a day and if they're not responding within like 24 hours, you're going psycho. But honestly, sometimes keep your dignity. Now you just need keep your dignity. But if you are like, should I text this person? Like, you know, will they wanna hang out with me? Do they want to talk to me? You can go round and round in your head, which is what I used to do, and kind of think that I needed to wait for them to text me. Or you can just send them a message and find out. Because if you text them and they don't respond, you have your answer. But sometimes you do text them and they do respond. And like even recently,'cause I'm, I'm dating at the moment and I, someone gave me their number off Hinge because also let's. Remind ourselves, it has never been easier. Back when I first started dating women, I don't know, like Tinder hinge, it wasn't really very good for queer people. I tried, but it was so dead. Like if you think dating women on Hinge now is dead back in 2020, it was even more dead. So the abundance is out there. You don't have to get fully attached to this random girl just because she's shown you a little bit of attention. Um. But I'm texting at the moment, like I was texting this girl from Hinge and she didn't respond to me and I was kind of like, oh, I kind of wanted to go on a date with her. And I was like, I'm just gonna double text her. And I did. Mm-hmm. You know,'cause I just wanted to know whether or not that loop was closed. Like I wanted to energetically be like, I'm just gonna double text her and see what happens. And she responded and now we're going on a date on Saturday. And a past version of me would never have fucking done that because I would've been like, I'm too desperate. I'm too clingy. Um, you know, I. Oh, they obviously don't like me. I'm just gonna wait for them. And to some, to an extent, sometimes obviously you don't wanna be responding to people really quickly and texting all the time. There is a fine balance, which, you know, join Mimi's program and she'll tell you how, how to do that, how to, um, navigate that balance, but also like. That is me being secure.'cause I'm like, I wanna see this person. Let me see if they respond. And if they don't, then I have my answer. And I think that's what really fucked me up when I was really anxiously attached, is like I was always waiting for someone else to give me the answer. And I was so scared that if I texted that person or asked for reassurance or brought something up, that was um. Causing me, you know, pain I guess, or I was struggling with, with that person. I was like, well, what if they reject me? So I would would rather have not brought up anything so that I didn't get rejected, even though that also meant I was sitting in this really anxiety riddled feeling. Whereas now I. I'm not scared of rejection, so like, yeah, I will double text you or I will ask you out on a date or, or I will bring something up and if you do something that I don't like, I'm gonna bring it up with you. And not in a way that's like really defensive or combative, but I'm like, if you are, you know, expecting too much from me or you are wanting me to be super available, but I've communicated that I can't because I'm working or whatever. I'm very open and honest, but I feel like now, because of the experience of being anxiously attached and all of the different relationships that I've been in, I'm, I feel really proud of the way that I'm able to communicate my needs, even with people that I'm just freshly dating or just with people that I've been in a relationship with as well. But a real big turning point for me was I was feeling so disgustingly anxious all the time with this first woman that I dated that. Um, I downloaded on Audible, the attached book, and at the time that's when we were just becoming friends and we were like, oh, my, this is our Bible, and we refer, we were reading at the same time. Yep. We would refer to it all day, every day. And I'm reading it going, fuck, I'm so anxiously attached. Well, I'm listening to it. And then as it goes through the avoidant and I was like, fuck, I'm dating the most avoidant person in the world. And it was really that book. That helped me then break up with this person. I was just like, I literally went from being so anxiously attached to dumping this person within a matter of weeks.'cause I was like, oh wait, I don't have to be treated like this. Oh my God. Yes. That was crazy. We were both having this like giant epiphany at the same time because that was around the same time that I went through. The breakup that I call like the catalyst to uncovering my anxious attachment and, and this whole secure journey. And we were reading that book, like inhaling it and every conversation we'd be on walks, like discussing this book and analyzing these partners and just, it was so interesting. And you know, just going back to what you said before around if you are hesitating to text someone because they've left you. On red for three days, or you just dunno what the fuck's going on. That voice that comes into your head that's like, oh no, if I do this, I'm gonna be clingy, I'm gonna be needy. They're gonna think I'm desperate. Whose voice is that? Like actually question like where, where is that voice coming from? Who told you that you are desperate and needy? It was probably some emotionally unavailable avoidant person who can't handle the slightest bit of confrontation or needing to take accountability or responsibility for the way that they are impacting your emotional experience. It's like you need to question that, you know, whose voice is that and where did you learn that your needs? And you needing clarity don't matter. You know, because they do. They are just as important as the other person. And also coming back to that question you asked earlier, ne like if you are the person who's afraid to text, asking yourself, well, do you think. That the, if it's a guy, like, do you think he would be over analyzing and going around in circles and being like, oh my God, she's gonna think I'm desperate if I just like text her again if I'm just, you know, say what I want? Fuck no. Like a straight white man's just gonna ask what he wants. He's gonna say what he wants and he's not gonna even think about it. You know? So it's like, if he can do that, so can you. So, yeah, just a little rant. A little rant on that. Sing it. Sing it, sis. Yes. Okay. And so. When that shift happened. So you read attached, you ended that relationship, and then how did your standards start to shift from that pace? A place of like people pleasing and trying to, um, prove your worth or prove your identity. How did that start to shift and then what were some of the changes you started to see in your love life from that? Well, I think first of all, I, um, I. Uh, going through that breakup and just like saying it for what it was, of being like, we are not compatible. It was quite a fiery breakup. I remember she came over and we both just, I was just kind of like, look, this isn't compatible for what I need. And she made the most horrible remarks about me and my business. And I remember like for the first time being able to see it and go like. Oh, this is just confirmation that what I'm doing is right, whereas I feel like a past version of me would've been like, what if she's, you know, what if she's right about my business? And what if, um, she thinks like, oh, I can't believe that she doesn't know me and she's misunderstanding me. But I was just like, oh no, this is just confirmation that I'm breaking up with the right person. Like I. We are absolutely not compatible. And I think even though that relationship caused me a lot of anxiety, it was such a valuable experience because as soon as I left that relationship, I felt I. I, I find this like kind of a difficult thing to convey because I never want other queer people to feel like they need to have a, a queer relationship to be validated. But for me it was incredibly validating and it was like, oh, I'm queer now, you know? And I wish it didn't have to be like that, but I really struggled with allowing myself the permission to be gay until I had that same sex experience and. That's probably not the most PC thing to say because I would love to say that I just like adopted that label and was like, cool. I'm gay. I'm confident with it, but I guess I just wasn't in the right. Situation slash we live in a heteronormative hellhole. So it was just really difficult. Like I always thought that if I said, oh, I'm gay, people are gonna question me and go, well prove it even though we don't do that to straight people. And that did give me a lot of confidence. Now, do I wish I could go back and, you know, if I have children the way that I'll raise them, it's very much like if you're gay, it's completely fine. If you're straight, it's completely fine. But I just didn't have that support system. So I would say that my attachment style was. Kind of healed a little bit just by having that experience that felt really validating. And then, you know, I started dating someone else and this person was like night and day different to my first girlfriend. Like so available I. So like would text me all the time, would ask me to hang out, like there was such an even distribution between who was doing the asking out to hang out and there was like always something locked in. There was always a plan together with both of us and it wasn't like I needed to communicate my needs. Right? Like obviously within a long-term relationship you should have, you will have to compromise and bring up your needs and figure out how you can both. Serve each other because it's not just automatically gonna be there. But in the early stages of dating, someone should be showing equal enthusiasm to date you. And you want a little bit of mystery, don't get me wrong, like you do want a little bit of like, oh, they don't text me back immediately. You know, I think. Something that I really liked about the way that me and my ex when we first started dating was like, yes, she was available. And she always texted me back, but it wasn't always like super quickly and it was like really the perfect balance of like, you're available, but you seem like you have other things going on in your life. But I felt secure and excited by that kind of connection. And there was always like a date locked in. I always knew when I was gonna be seeing this person. So that felt really nice. And that feeling of like, you know when you're dating someone and you're like, I just know that if I text. To you, you're gonna respond, even if it's not immediately. I just know that you will. And that's what you get to have when you first start dating someone. And if someone's being really bread carmy at the start of like, they don't respond to you, or they sometimes just, you know, don't lock in plans. If you ask them, they're like, oh, let's wait until the end of the week to confirm it. Like if that doesn't suit your lifestyle. It might suit you if you have a full roster of people that you're dating and you're just like, whatever, I don't really care. But if you know that that's not what you're looking for, then stop giving this person time and attention. And so it wasn't, as I said, like I really had to communicate my needs. But I also think, as I mentioned, that my confidence and security was kind of charged up by having this first experience with a woman. And then I was like, okay, cool. Now I can go out there and just. Um, really own this part of me because I felt like I had gone to see, and I had the proof. I was like, cool. Yep. I've dated a woman. I know what I want now. And that's, that was really, um. V Val validating. Oh my God. Can't speak. I've had too much coffee this morning. Yeah, and I think, I love that you said that, that that was, having that relationship was the validation that you needed because I think we can, you know, with all the personal development online this, this growing world, I think there can be a lot of. Toxic positivity or like bypassing just the reality of people's experiences. And I think it's okay to say that you need a certain level of validation, whether it's needing a, um, needing to be in a relationship with a woman in order to feel like you can confidently say you are a lesbian, or you know, if you are. Struggling with body image issues and getting some validation or support from your partner. Yes, whether it's a man or a woman, if that that's what you need and that's gonna help your healing journey and help you to find self love. There's nothing wrong with that. Like as much as I am all for rooting for you to become secure and independent and be able to meet your own needs and all that. You're still human, you know, and you're still allowed to want that from a partner. And it's, it's a healthy part of relationships. Obviously, we don't wanna be outsourcing our, our confidence and emotional wellbeing 100% to our partner, but a healthy amount of that is perfectly normal. And, um, and okay, so we use normalize that, and as Anez said, normalizing, normalizing standards and clarity and consistency from the get go. Right. And ne you are back in, you're actively dating now. And so, because I think people ask this question a lot. They say like, oh, how soon is too soon to ask for clarity? Or when should I be communicating my needs? And like, I'd love to hear your, your, your approach on that. Yeah, I think I'm in an interesting space because I don't really have a, maybe this makes me sound like a bit of a fuck girl, but anyway, I'm not like super being super intentional with my dating. But what I mean by that is like I'm in a really interesting phase in my life where I've just gotten out of like a five year relationship. We were engaged and so I've had that really serious relationship and someone that I was. You know, building a life with for a really long time, and this is the first time as a queer woman as a 30-year-old that I'm dating. So. I think it would be really difficult if I was entering the dating realm, being like, I wanna find a wife. I'm ready to have a baby. But in this phase of my life, I'm really comfortable with myself. I fucking love nothing more than sitting at home watching a good TV show. Like tonight, all I wanna do is order a meat lovers pizza and you know, watch a movie and have some garlic bread. Do I have a date? Yes. If you're listening to this, I'm excited for the date she said she might be sick. I'm excited for the date, but I'm also not gonna be but hurt if she cancels it because I'm also love my time alone. So I think it just puts me in a really good place for dating because I'm not needing constant stimulation by another person. Like I can, I can communicate my needs because I'm not worried about being rejected. And you know, we've spoken about this a little bit before, but something. When we are dating, especially someone like I, I would identify as a secure person, but in general I think it's always good to not put all of your eggs in one basket. Like obviously if you start to really like someone and, and, and at that point I'd be having a conversation. But I think for me, just giving myself full permission to explore and date other people and. Have that experience that as a queer woman that I didn't really have, you know when you are straight, you go through the experience of like dating all these people and talking to all these people and kissing different boys and going out to clubs and doing and flirting with random people. But I just didn't really have that obviously as a queer person.'cause I came out, it was locked down. I got into two relationships very fast right after one another. And so now I'm just in this really good phase where I get to explore and I can. Feel like do what I want and be and be a little bit selfish, because for a really long time I've always considered what is. Partly good for my, um, partner, even though I can still prioritize my own needs. But in a relationship, you're always thinking about what's gonna benefit or be good for that other person, that other person's schedule and where they are and what they're doing. And that's so beautiful because you get to build a life with someone. But also I'm really relishing in this time where I get to, you know, do dates that suit me as well. Like sometimes people will be like, do you want to do dinner? And I'm like. No, I just wanna go for a drink with you. And, and that's been a learning curve.'cause I used to just say yes to any date that someone would ask me on and be like, oh, let's go for dinner. And I'd be on a fucking four hour dinner with a random person that I don't even know. And I've learned from that and gone, right. I don't know if I want to give a random person who, I have no idea whether this is gonna turn into something long term. Uh, a long day, like now I've switched and I've been like, cool, I'm gonna give you two hours and just, you know, I've got someone else to be. Rather than just being like, I love that. I feel like, oh, I'm gonna feel the, you know, spend the whole night with you. I love that. And it's, I think hearing that for me even, but for everyone listening, it's like. That's such a permission slip. Yeah. To, it doesn't just have to be you, you know, um, prioritizing what the other person is suggesting or just submitting to it because they've said they've, they've offered that suggestion. Like you get to decide what works for you and what doesn't. And I remember the other day we were on the phone and you said that you asked this girl out on a date and you were like, are you free on Saturday between four and six? Yeah. And I was like, love that. Like, love the specificity, but. That is such an example of you just standing in your, in your self-worth, in your confidence and being like, this is what would feel really good for me. Like, are you a match for that? Do you wanna do that? Yes. Um, I'm busy. Like, get in or get out. You know? So hot. I love it. I love it. Oh, this is such an amazing conversation, but I think we will bring it to a close. And the last question I have for you is if you can give some advice to. People listening who are feeling like they wanna explore their sexuality, and they're really nervous, they're scared, they're afraid of what people might think, and maybe they're putting it off. What would be some advice that you would give to that person? My advice would be, you won't know. Personally, I don't think you will know for sure what your sexuality is until you just give it a go. So if you've been thinking, oh, I'd love to sleep with a woman, or I'd love to kiss a girl. It doesn't have to be this thing where first you have to go, I'm gay, I've gotta come out to everyone. I need to know what I am. Like, just go and kiss that person. Just go and sleep with that person. And then afterwards you can decide, am I still straight? Do I wanna tell anyone? Do I want to come out? Do I even wanna a label you like For me, I just felt like I have to try this before I die. And once I tried it, once I started dating women, kissing women, sleeping with women, I was like, hell yeah. This is me now. But I just don't think I would've known. But I think a lot of people. Put so much pressure on themselves to know what their sexuality is and how they're gonna tell their family and how they're gonna present in the world before they just give it a go when in reality, it just doesn't have to be that deep. You know, coming from the person that took 10 years before they finally. Gave it a go. I understand that it feels like such a huge hurdle, but it just doesn't have to be something that you commit to and now more so than ever, like go on Hinge, go on field. There's so many dating apps. I wish I remember my ex-girlfriend. She is. Um, I. Like five years younger than me. She said she had Tinder at school. I was like, wow, that's amazing. If I had Tinder at school, oh my God, I also probably would've been more exploratory with my sexuality, but like I just couldn't meet any gay people. It felt fucking impossible in high school, but you have so much opportunity at your fingertips now. Just give it a go, and there's plenty of people out there that will happily sleep with you in a casual way to just. You know, give you that experience and just be upfront about it. It's, we're all experimenting all the time. Like, I kind of hate the word of like, oh, I'm experimenting. Am I gonna be using that other person? It's like, but every sexual encounter that you have is an experiment.'cause you don't know, you might sleep together and not have any chemistry anyway. Like it, it can, it can be a much more like fluid chill things. And there are literally apps like that. I mean, I haven't used field, but apparently that's more of that kind of vibe. So go and check it out. Give it a go. Give it a go. And I love that you don't have to worry about putting a label on yourself or changing your identity. You can just go and experiment, see if you like it. Yeah. If you do, great. If you don't, fine. Nothing has to change. Yeah. Thank you so much Ez for being here today and for being so open and just sharing the insights of your journey. I know that everyone listening is gonna have so many takeaways from this, myself included. So if people wanna connect with you more, um, where can they find you? If you wanna connect with me more on my queer lifestyle, come and follow me on TikTok at NZI sparkles. Um, if you want to find out more about my day-to-day life and my online business coaching, come and find me on Instagram at a n buy. Yes, an Nez is an amazing business coach and you've supported me in my journey with my business. Yes. And so if you are, I can vouch for that. If you are starting your business or you're wanting to grow your business and you're looking for support and you're vibing with Nez, definitely go and check out her Instagram and I will leave all of that linked in the show notes below. Thank you so much, Nez. That's so sweet. Thanks so much for having me, Mimi. Of course. Bye. Lovely. Bye. If you enjoyed today's episode, hit that subscribe button and leave a review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Share this episode with your friends and come find me on social so we can hang out between episodes. All the links are below in the show notes.