Ep #51: Inside the Avoidant Mind: What They’re Really Thinking When They Pull Away (My Sister’s Avoidant Perspective!)

In this episode, I sit down with my sister, Hannah, to have an honest, nuanced conversation about what it’s actually like to experience relationships from an avoidantly attached perspective.

So many anxiously attached people are left feeling confused, rejected, or questioning their worth when someone pulls away emotionally. This conversation offers a rare inside look into what’s really happening beneath the surface; not just the behaviours, but the fear, overwhelm, and coping mechanisms driving them.

We talk about how childhood experiences shape avoidant attachment, why emotional closeness can feel unsafe, and how avoidance isn’t about not caring, it’s about self-protection. We also explore the anxious–avoidant push–pull dynamic, why conflict feels so threatening for avoidants, and what actually helps someone with avoidant tendencies feel safe enough to open up.

In this episode:
• What’s actually happening when an avoidant partner pulls away
• Why their distance is about overwhelm — not indifference
• How the anxious–avoidant push–pull keeps both people stuck
• The hidden anxiety avoidant partners rarely show
• How to tell if this dynamic can heal… or if it’s time to walk away

🎧 Tune in now! And if this episode resonates, send me a DM on Instagram—I’d love to hear your thoughts!

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Transcript

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You are listening to the Secure Love Club podcast. I'm your host, Mimi Watt. Hey friends. Welcome back to the Club. Today's episode is a little different and honestly one of my favorite episodes I've ever recorded because I am sitting down with my sister, Hannah, who you may have heard me talk about on my Instagram. We are very close. Relationally and also very close in age. We are 18 months apart, and Hannah is someone who identifies as more Avoidantly attached, and I got her on the podcast to give you an inside look into what's actually going on. On the other side of the anxious attachment on the other end of the spectrum, because let's be real, if you've ever dated someone who is emotionally unavailable, which most of you probably have, you've probably asked yourself questions like, what are they thinking? Do they even care? Why do they pull away? The moment things get close and it's really frustrating. And so in this conversation we talk about, first of all. Our difference in experiences growing up in a family that experienced divorce, with our parents and also going into a blended family. Hannah shares her experience in what that was like and the different ways that it impacted her and her coping mechanisms and how she really got through that. We then go into what actually happens inside an avoidant person when emotional intimacy increases. And of course, Hannah is sharing from her personal experience and her perspective. So she's not, it's not like she's speaking for all avoidance in a general manner. But it's really interesting to hear what she has to say. And we also talk about why pulling away isn't, not caring, but more about feeling unsafe and overwhelmed. We talk about the push pull dynamic between anxious and avoidant partners and how it quietly keeps both people stuck, not just those of us who are anxious. We go into why avoidant people often look fine on the outside. While actually feeling anxious and flooded with emotion underneath, and what helps an avoidant partner feel safe to open up without forcing, chasing or self abandoning. This is really insightful, not only for those of you who are anxiously attached and you're wanting to have a better understanding of what goes through an avoidance mind and body, but also. If you have, maybe you have an avoidant partner at the moment, or you know someone who is a bit more avoidant, also send this to them to listen to, because I think Hannah, to her credit, articulates what it's like so beautifully and clearly. And I think for me, even personally, I learned so much listening to her talk and I gained new insights in ways that I hadn't heard before. As much as her and I have spoken on these topics over the years. Maybe you yourself, identify as more avoidant. And I think by hearing Hannah's side of the story, you will actually feel very validated and seen and understood. Hannah shares very honestly why conflict and confrontation in relationships genuinely feel so terrifying and unsafe, and it. It helps to, I feel like it softens the edge for those of you who are anxiously attached, to really understand that people who are avoidant aren't. Void of emotion. It's not that they don't care, and it's not that they don't want that intimacy and connection, it's just they have a very hard time confronting emotion and even accessing it within themselves internally, let alone being able to hold space for someone else's emotions. But I am. So proud of my sister because she really has put in the work over the last few years to heal some of her attachment wounds and become more comfortable with her emotions and. She shares about a very significant relationship for her. That was eight years of her life and what it looked like to end that relationship and walk away, and the pain of that, but also the silver lining and what it taught her about herself and about the patterns that she's not wanting to repeat as she's now moving into a. New relationship. And so she shares all about that and it's so interesting and I think you're just gonna love hearing my sister and I bond. And we also sound very similar. So hopefully you can tell the difference between the two of us. But enjoy this episode with Hannah. Hannah, welcome to the Secure Love Club podcast. The podcast that you have heard me recording time after time in my bedroom. How does it feel to be on the pod, Mimi? Yes, I've heard you time and time again. You telling everyone to be quiet? Um, no, it feels great. It feels good to be here. Yeah. Well, thank you for joining me and. I wonder if we sound quite similar to everyone listening. I think they'll be able to tell the difference between us. I think so. I think we know who's the seasoned here. And it's seasoned. Okay. It's not me and it's not you. Well, thank you for coming on. I know this was actually quite an impromptu decision, but I had the inspiration drop in and I thought, let's act on it right away. And I thought it would be a great idea to. Have you on the podcast today to share your experience of relationships being someone who is typically more on the avoidant end of the spectrum, and, uh, emotionally unavailable, I would say. To preface that you have come a long way, and I've seen that in you from where you were five years ago or a few years ago even, and I thought it would be really valuable and insightful for my listeners who are. Uh, mostly anxiously attached to hear and understand what it's like from your perspective when there's intimacy in relationships and what you feel and what goes through your mind. Because I, I think for the anxiously attached person, there's a lot of curiosity around what's actually going through the avoidance mind when they are behaving in certain ways and when they're pulling away and whatnot. And it's interesting because you and I grew up in obviously the same household. We had the same childhood experiences, trauma, if you will, and we have evolved into. Quite different people, um, when it comes to many, many facets, but especially in relationships and emotionally. I would say you and I kind of went to the opposite ends of the spectrum with myself being highly anxiously attached and you being more avoidant. And there's nothing wrong with being either way. There's no shame in either. It's simply just. Different coping mechanisms that we develop as children to protect ourselves from pain and abandonment and all the things. Mm-hmm. And we carry those wounds or those patterns into adulthood, as you know. And so why don't we, actually, for some context, I would love to go back and maybe hear a little bit about your experience. In early childhood and what you remember, what you don't remember, what that felt like for you when you were young With our parents. Getting divorced and we have a blended family and all of that. Yeah. I think for me, when I think back to childhood, especially, when our parents were getting divorced, we were quite young. I was five. I don't necessarily remember events. It's more so kind of fragments and feelings and things that happened. And I think a really big part of that was. I think I saw, you and our other siblings and how they were responding to that. And a big part of that was with a lot of emotion and obviously a lot of upset and trauma because it is a traumatic thing to happen. And I often felt like quite observant of that and almost to a point of like the stress that that had on mom and dad and how obviously they felt a lot of guilt around the situation. And so I think my response and coping mechanism was to stay on the outside. To not rock the boat and to really keep my emotions contained to almost help soften the blow in a way to not be that fourth child that was then really emotional and upset, but just keep it all in, rather than expressing that outwardly. And I think that kind of just continued to develop a lot throughout my childhood, and particularly as a teenager. I think another part of it was also wanting to be like a protector. Obviously you and I were very close growing up and still are, and being your older sister, it was almost like this facade or this need to be the strong one, the one that was there manage and help things.'cause obviously you were very distressed and a highly anxious child just given everything that had happened. And I think it just naturally came about that I became this kind of. Um, I guess not, not a shell of myself, but I, I didn't really know how to outwardly express emotion because it was not something that was necessarily validated. There was not really a nurturing environment in that sense. And so, yeah, as I said, it's just something that's developed as I've gotten older. That's really interesting. I don't think I've ever heard you say that around. You didn't want to add more. Stress to the situation because myself and our two older siblings were more on the emotional side. I never actually realized that you were trying to lighten the burden there. Mm-hmm. How did you feel like, obviously you were trying to, you were trying to take some of the burden off. You were also always being very protective of me, but how do you remember feeling. As a child in that environment, you said there wasn't a lot of reassurance and validation and what did that, how did you internalize that? Yeah, I think for a lot of the time I just didn't feel safe. I didn't feel safe in my emotions. I didn't feel safe to express them. It was like, I remember if I could describe my childhood in one way, it was like the feeling of. Holding your breath, like something's about to happen. There's about to be a big impact, or I didn't feel safe. I felt scared. And anytime I did, maybe in a small way, externalize my emotions or how I was feeling, it would be shut down or not really acknowledged. And so to me that was like, okay, that's not a safe thing to do. Keep that inside. Put this like facade on, and that's how you'll remain safe if you stay in the shadows, if you stay small and don't like, bring your emotions and how you're feeling. Out, you'll be okay and you'll get through this. And so that's what a lot of my childhood felt like. And I would say probably adolescence as well, but maybe in a slightly different way. Yeah, it was just this feeling of like unsafety fight or flight kind of feeling. Mm. That is very, descriptive of what I understand. To be about avoidance where they don't feel that it is safe to express emotion and almost developing this armor, which is, I'm gonna keep my distance and I'm gonna keep to myself because the only one I can rely on is me. And that's how you feel in control and you create, as you said, that sense of safety is just hold it all in. Don't share what did happen. On the rare occasion when you did try to express how you were feeling to family members? I think when it was particularly trying to express it to parents, uh, with dad, I think there was obviously so much stress on his shoulders and so much going on, having four young children going through a divorce, trying to, keep afloat basically, that if I. Was to express something or say how I was feeling. He really didn't have the capacity or understanding to respond in a way that would make me feel acknowledged or validated. He would almost shut it down indirectly. It wasn't like he'd say, I'm sorry you're feeling that way. Let's talk about it. Let me, nurture you in a way. It was kind of like, oh, oh, well, you know, keep going. You'll be, you'll get over it, kind of thing. And so that was the response I always anticipated. Which obviously doesn't make you feel good or seen. And I think, it was the way that I coped. Yeah. Yeah. Mm. It's, um, you're right. And I remember having a similar experience with, I'm sure it was not like a blanket experience. I'm sure there were moments. I, I do remember moments of dad. Doing his very best to comfort me personally and having to lie next to me so I could fall asleep night after night for years after the divorce. And, but the, like you said, he didn't have either the capacity or I think from experiences between us and also with him maybe not having the actual understanding of what it means to truly validate someone else's feelings and hold space for them. And allow that person to express emotion fully and safely and then come out the other side. And I think a lot of, to be fair, a lot of people in his generation, a lot of boomers don't actually have that skillset. Again, not to generalize, but many people are like that, and I think they just weren't taught how to do that growing up. And it wasn't really a thing to talk about your emotions. It was very much that mentality, as you said, of, well, you know, just shut it down. Just get on with it. You'll be right. Just. Uh, deflect or sweep it under the rug. Yeah. And so it's not to, this is not to place blame, but simply to share our experiences of what it was like. And it's so interesting to me how us as individuals and maybe most people who are anxious and most who are avoidant. Would respond to that lack of validation and assurance. So for myself, I remember internalizing that as, oh, I need to try harder and I need to like really work to get that love and validation in the way that I need it. And I'm not gonna stop until I get it because in my mind, in my body, that was the way I was going to survive. But for you, it sounds like. You went the opposite way, where by not getting it, you then stopped, almost like stopped trying to get it all together or stopped outwardly seeking that connection because it was almost too painful. I think so, yeah. It was, as I said, it was just what I came to expect, so I was like, there's not really point in trying because. Maybe there were moments of validation, but there were so few and far between that I had just come to expect that that was what the outcome was gonna be. That didn't make me feel good, therefore protect myself and not, express that part of me. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. What happened as you started to get a bit older and we were teenagers, are there any thoughts or memories around how your protection mechanisms, let's say around your attachment wounds. Started to show up in school or in social settings or with friendships? I think probably one of the biggest things was feeling like I didn't have a voice or my voice wasn't important. And so in saying that, I was also, I felt like I was quite surface level. Like I would never have really deep conversations with people. It was always very like. One dimensional kind of conversations and not getting into emotion or vulnerability was a really big thing that I, um, avoided a lot because it was just too painful. I think with friendships it was a big, sorry, I think with friendships, not knowing how to show up authentically as myself because I felt very misaligned, very, uh, unsure of who I was, quite insecure, and so I was kind of just morphing like this chameleon into who I. Almost thought people wanted me to be, or what the safest version of myself was to fit into those situations. I kept to myself a lot. I'm quite, introverted naturally, and I think it was just a way of not getting close to people, basically. It was like, I had friends, but it was never, never felt like a really deep connection or friends that you have for life kind of thing. And I think that's probably one of the ways that it played out. In adolescence. Yeah. And what you said about not being able to express yourself authentically. We know that when you aren't being your authentic self, you often will not attract those deep aligned relationships because I think those true friendships where there's depth and it's real and you feel really connected, they come from. Two people who are being their authentic selves and feel alignment in that. And they have things in common and they understand each other, they understand. And I think for you, knowing you so well, there was a lot of feeling misunderstood by people in your life, in school, and even in family. And do you feel that? Yeah, not being safe. Not feeling safe with your emotions. That in a way, you almost didn't even know who you were for a long time, or no? Yeah, definitely. I think, I mean, there was parts of me that I knew certain things about myself, like I was a creative person. I knew what I liked, but I never felt completely connected to myself because it was just like internally this wall had been put up. I was constantly trying to like outrun emotion, outrun feelings to not just like have to sit with myself because it was felt so painful and scary and was something that I had avoided for so long. So it's like, how can you truly know yourself when you don't give yourself the space to do that in a way? And I think that was what was happening a lot of the time. Mm-hmm. That makes a lot of sense to me. Yeah. So I'd like to talk about. Relationships now.'cause I know that everyone listening probably wants to know. And I thought this would be great because when I think I said this to you earlier, a few years back, I was in a group coaching program and it was on relationships and this kind of work. And there was a woman in the group who was much more on the avoidant end of the spectrum. And everyone else was more anxious, including myself. And on one of the calls, she started to share. What her experience was like in relationships when the other peop other person would try to get really close and what was going through her mind. And it was very insightful just to understand like, oh, that's what you are thinking and that's what you are feeling. And again, it's going to be unique and individual to everyone. But I'd like to ask you to start off when, and, and this can be from, because I do know that you've. Come a long way, but in general, when you start dating someone and you feel them getting emotionally closer to you, maybe the feelings for them are coming on stronger than for you in the beginning. What actually begins to happen inside of you? And maybe thinking about when you were like really at the height of your. Avoidance and you hadn't done, because I know you have done some of the deeper work on yourself since a few years ago. Mm-hmm. But what was, yeah, what would, what did that feel like? If I am speaking about my, probably my most prominent relationship in my life, who I was with my partner for about eight years. I remember when we first started dating, he was very into me and wanted to get into a relationship quickly. And I remember being like, yes, okay. Like, I'll, I'll be your girlfriend. And then the next day being like, sorry, I can't do it. It's, it's too much too soon. So I got, I got swept up in the moment, but then that part of me that wanted to pull away and was like freaking out, I was like, nah. I just wanna keep you at arm's length kind of thing. Mm. That you know. Old horse rear reared its head. Is it horse or bull? Um, I don't know. Okay. Um, so it's this weird push pull dynamic where I want the affection and attention and it's really nice, obviously to be desired or for someone to be interested in you, but then it's also that kind of opposite where. You are like, okay, I like that, but I don't want all the heavy, deep stuff that goes with it. Mm-hmm. So it's like, just gimme that, gimme like the good stuff and then everything else can just, let's Interesting. Not include that in the package. Yeah. Right. I love that. And what kind of thoughts come up for you when someone is starting to show those signs of a lot of emotion and that sort of wanting to get really close to you? I said, you want all that stuff. And then as soon as the person starts showing interest or that they might wanna take things more seriously, my brain kind of flips and it's like, Ugh, do I even actually like this person? Like I don't even think I'm into them that much. Maybe I'll just pull away a little bit, put'em in the freezer, be a little bit cooler in the texting. Um, it's almost. Yeah, it's that kind of feeling. So I'm into it and then they start showing more and I'm like, oh no. And I like flick the switch. Yeah. Oh my God. As you say that, it's bringing to mind a memory for me with. One of my ex-partners, the last sort of person that I was with, my audience have heard me say this a million times, but the partner that I was with right before I started getting into all of this work, so back in 2020 and when before we had become exclusive. When he was courting me, if you will, he was making a lot of effort. He was being very dotting, he was saying all these beautiful things and really getting me in all my feels and like very wrapped up in it. And I remember I. One night we were sitting, we were at his house and we were sitting out the back at the dining table and he'd made this beautiful dinner and it was like candlelight wine. And he asked me to be his girlfriend and I said yes. And like it was very exciting and whatever, whatever. And then I remember it feeling like that. It was like a switch had just flipped and all of a sudden all of this effort and closeness. It was like it just disappeared. Mm. And he all of a sudden became very focused on work and would always be quite busy. And if I questioned what had changed, he would deflect or make me feel like I was being overly emotional or, and I was. So, I remember just feeling so confused and dumb fat. I was like, what the hell just happened? Where did you go, basically? And just what you explained. Is making me think that's maybe what was going on there. There was that desire to win the other person over. Yeah. Yeah. I was gonna say that it's almost like this goalpost that that person is trying to reach. It's like, okay, I've gotta do all these things and then once I get to that point that chapter's kind of done and I can re you know, assign my focus or whatever. And that's, I can kind of relate to that in a way. Mm. Yeah. And then do you find for you. Uh, once you reach that point in the relationship, so you've been pursuing or you win them over and then they're showing a lot of interest or affection, and then you start to pull away. Obviously it doesn't mean that straight away you like leave the relationship, but do you find that when maybe someone who is on the more emotional side, if they start to pull away, does it make you like regain interest? Want to. Win them over again, or? I think it can, I think it's this feeling of the chase and that probably makes me sound a bit like, I don't know. No, I think it's human nature. I understand. Yeah. Uh. Uh, it's almost like you want what you can't have sort of thing. So if someone has shown a lot of interest, it's, it's like, oh, they're super available. They're there for me. So it's like, okay, that's fine. Peace of mind. But then if they were to start pulling away, maybe then that would spike something in me that was then like, okay, like it's back on. I need to sort of regain their attention and. Have that stability in a way. Mm-hmm. Because I, I guess like being avoidant doesn't necessarily well at all mean that you don't want attention, affection, closeness, connection. It's just like maybe there's a cap on it because that is where your capacity for emotional. I don't know, um, like your emotional capacity is. Mm-hmm. Whereas for someone that is comfortable with vulnerability and like connection and really wants to get into like the deep sort of part of it, that is quite a stressful thing for me. Mm-hmm. Obviously, just given my whole history, um, I think I have come some way, as you said. Yeah. But yeah, it's, it's not like a natural thing that I'm like very open to. So, yeah. Yeah. Mm. It's funny how the pursuing and the chasing does happen for both sides of the, or both. Um, enter the spectrum if, if we're talking anxious and avoidant, when the avoidant pulls away, the anxious person wants to chase and win them over again. And then when they do that, the avoidable like pull away even further. Mm mm And then the anxious person has this almost protest response of like, well, fuck you, I'm gonna. Now I'm gonna go cold and stonewall you to try and get your attention, which it then does. So then you try to win them over again and it goes back and forth and it can end up being quite a toxic dynamic. Would you say that being, uh, let's say, how do I put this politely? Um, almost being less connected to your emotions, potentially being a bit more like numb of them. Do you feel in these dynamics that you are like more in control, you're less affected almost? Yes. In certain situations, I think obviously the emotions are still there, but I think it's because that wall comes up, you do feel a little bit detached from it in a way, which sounds really harsh. It's never intended to be like that. It's just again, a coping mechanism and it's just my natural response, which, I think that's what can really get to people who are more anxious and be really hurtful and frustrating is sometimes it almost seems like the other person is. Unaffected or Yeah, their emotions like don't get the better of them and they can just be cool, calm, collected, and in control. And like when they wanna be closed, they almost know that the other person will come running to them. And if things aren't as going as well, someone who's a bit more avoidant can as you said, like close that door, put up that wall, and detach from your emotions and. Be seemingly fine and living their life and yeah, at least that's what it was like from my perspective. But yeah, I think it's, it's not always true. It sounds like a bit of a power trip thing, but it's not necessarily true. As I said, like going back to my childhood, my coping mechanism was to like shut down and just not express emotion. And so sometimes in a situation where I am feeling really anxious or. The relationship or Situationship isn't necessarily panning out as I had wanted. There's a lot of anxiety internally. It's just you don't see it. You don't see it from the outside. Objectively, I look fine. I look like, oh, whatever. I'll just get on with it. But there's often, for me, a lot of anxiety and like emotion under the surface. It's just, yeah, as I said, I'm not super expressive of that. That's really interesting to hear. That you actually are feeling that stuff, but you just, yeah. You don't see it. Mm. Because it's so true for anxious people, you often do see it. You see that display of emotion externally quite clearly. Mm. From your perspective, what is it that feels overwhelming or unsafe about emotional closeness? So I think for me. A thing that I experience is always needing to feel like I'm in control. And so if I, it's almost like this projection of the future. So if I were to be in a relationship with someone and you have these like. Deep conversations, you get really connected. You know, you're really like intertwined. The thought I have is this like future projection of doomsday, well this is not gonna work out, the other shoe's gonna drop. And then I would've been all vulnerable and show this side of myself and now I feel even more exposed. It's, which is a shit way to look at a relationship, assuming that it's doomed. But I think. Laying your cards bare and just like being there and being like, this is who I am. These are the things that scare me. This is what makes me uncomfortable. These are my, shadow parts of myself, my weaknesses. I think people that do that have so much courage, to be able to just, even if you don't feel safe, I mean it doesn't really feel safe to be vulnerable, but I'm like envious of that. But I think it's just such an overwhelming feeling of. Yeah, just being completely exposed to someone and maybe that person not accepting that or those fragments of you, I think it is like an acceptance thing. Yeah. That's so interesting of, yeah, thinking ahead and almost, yeah, from the get go, having that mentality of like, it's just not gonna work. So why would I expose all the deepest parts of myself and be like completely on display and. I'm always having this visual of just, you are like, you're standing in an open field ready to be completely taken down, like shot at or just you're, you're just so vulnerable. Mm-hmm. Yeah. That's really interesting. How would you say that you typically experience conflict in relationships? What is your typical reaction or coping mechanism when there's conflict? Well. It's changed a little bit since my last relationship because I realized there was work that needed to be done. But I think conflict is something that I would typically run away from because again, it's like a, a certain type of vulnerability where you are basically confronting a situation that makes you feel uncomfortable, that makes emo like certain emotions come up. So my way was to just like bury it down, bury my head in the sand, keep myself really busy. Go and do something, don't face it and just, pretend it's okay. Mm. Yeah. Yeah. That's in, in knowing you and witnessing you living your life. I have seen that. That is, that tends to be the coping mechanism for you is to withdraw and always go into that. When we look at the, the fight or flight response, I would say for you, it's the flight. Yeah. So as you said, like go out, do something, busy yourself constantly, so you can absolutely. Cut off from feeling the discomfort of and what comes with conflict. And would you say that It's interesting because knowing what I know of your ex-partner who in the long-term relationship with, I wouldn't actually look at him and say that he was necessarily anxiously attached. I would say he was quite securely attached, however. There, and correct me if I'm wrong, but what I saw in the two of you was almost like this conflict avoidance on both sides where you wouldn't Yeah. You talking to that. Yeah. Yeah. I think for the most part he was definitely. A very secure person and partner. But I think a big part of it was similarly with a lot of men is that he didn't really know how, well, I shouldn't just generalize, but if we're talking about men in this context, he didn't really know how to express or deal with conflict or emotion. Uh, he could obviously be very comforting, but I think there was a lot of avoidance around maybe deeper issues that were in the relationship. And we both were very avoidant in that sense. We are both very kind of enduring people. Like we can really stick things out, but even if it's not the healthiest thing, even if it doesn't serve either one, it's like, well, we're in this, let's just keep going. And ultimately that was our demise sort of sort of thing. Yeah. Mm. Yeah. It's almost like you ended up coexisting, but over time with not. Addressing the deeper issues that needed to be addressed, at least from, from my understanding, it was like there was just this huge separation that ended up coming between the two of you. Yeah. It was that whole thing of like trying to outrun,, your emotions and the problems within the relationship and. It's like, oh, well the relationship's like 90% good or 80% really good. So the other stuff, that's fine, we can live with that, that's normal. But it just created this giant chasm of unspoken things. And even being an avoidant person, like there was a lot of anxiety. I, my mental health took the biggest hit and I just couldn't outrun it. It just consumed me in the end. And I think, if I hadn't done something about, ending that relationship, wanting. To be a decision that was best for myself, but also what I could see was best for him. It would've just continued. Like I don't think he would've been the type of person to, to end it. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm. Thank you for sharing that. I know it's like a very personal part of your life. Yeah. How did those cumulative years of really not addressing. What you could feel deep within did need to be addressed and spoken through and resolved. You said your mental health took a real hit. Mm. But like how else did that start to really impact you? Over time, because I think coming back to what we said earlier, it's very easy from an anxious person's perspective to look at someone who's more avoidant and think that they're just fine all the time and they've just got their shit together and they're not affected and it's so much easier to be in their position. But from your side of the story, what did that start to do to you? I mean, yeah, as you said, it can be, it can look like, that person's just made a steal and everything's fine. But I think. From my experience, those feelings and just kept growing and it bled into every facet of my life. And as I said, it really affected my mental health. I really lost a sense of purpose in my job. I was just showing up just to get the day done, get through it, my physical health. I stopped taking care of myself physically. I was quite an active, healthy person and just. Saying no to things, not being open to new experiences, basically just surviving. It just became this really horrible, monotonous, Groundhog Day, day in, day out. And it was, yeah, by the end of it, I was just not myself at all. It's really takes a toll, and as you've come to learn, we've spoken about before that. You said, you try to outrun this stuff for as long as you can, but our body is not just this. Endless pits where you can stuff things down and down and down it, it is like a garbage can where there is a bottom to it. Mm. And you can push as much down as you possibly can, but eventually it's going to explode and it's going to reach a breaking point, which it did for you. And you made that very brave decision that I know was not easy for you to make, to leave a relationship that had so much good in it. And I know there's still a lot of love and respect for each other, but ultimately. It was not supporting you to grow into the person that you were wanting to become. What did going through that breakup? Force you to look at within yourself and to want to. Understand about yourself? Do you remember what came up for you like in those early days or in the months after? I think initially the whole thing was just a really big shock to my system. It was obviously quite a traumatic experience, especially when you are leaving a relationship. That, there's not some mass event that's happened. There was no cheating. It was purely a decision had to be made, draw a line in the sand and that's it. And so that was a really difficult thing to face. But I think the biggest thing was needing to understand how I contributed in a big way to, ultimately that relationship not working out and how I was showing up in the relationship as someone who. Was avoidant and, and could have done more basically. I think ultimately I still feel that was the right decision for me and for him, but it really made me need to look in the mirror and say, okay, this is obviously a two-way street. What could I have done better? I think that was the biggest thing, and that was a hard thing to do because as I said, like trying to outrun yourself for so long, you don't wanna look at those parts of yourself. The parts that maybe scare you about yourself or that you're ashamed of. But ultimately looking at those things helped me to almost get a little bit of closure and healing and understanding and acceptance of why I am like that and, and why that kind of unfolded in the way that it did. And I guess that's the silver lining of everything that happened, of ruminating over this decision for a long time, making it, sticking to it. And then. Looking at those parts of myself. That was what I experienced after I'd gotten over the whole trauma of the situation. Yeah, of course. And that is the power of breakups. As horrific as they are, they teach us so much about ourselves if we're willing to look at it, look at ourselves in the parts as you said, that contributed. And what did you learn about. How you contributed to that and maybe some of the lessons that you have taken from the way that relationship was that you are working to not repeat moving forward. Mm-hmm. I think one of the biggest things is learning to take accountability and responsibility for my emotions and how I let them play out in the relationship. Whether that is by not showing them or. Putting all my emotional needs on my partner in a way. I think the biggest lesson that I've learned from that is definitely confronting situations and knowing that no matter what it is, it's gonna be uncomfortable. It's not something that is natural to me. It's not second nature. It's. Needing to sit with a problem or sit with how I'm feeling and try to articulate it to communicate it. If I'm seeing someone not to piss off and go and keep busy and use avoidant distractions. A big one for me was kind of still is, is shopping and spending money and feeling the need to get that like little high.'cause I'm like, well, I feel good now. So it's, it's fine, but I think it's like having those difficult conversations. And trying to articulate how I'm feeling, rather than just expecting that other person to be a mind reader, and articulate that for me, it's like trying to be more of an adult and take responsibility and have an equal dynamic as opposed to just avoiding it. Mm, mm-hmm. Yep. And I've been able to witness this firsthand as you have been getting back into dating and into a. New relationship, so to speak, as much as you, they're not listening, calling it that. Yeah. But as you have been putting some of this stuff into practice, what are the positive results that you are starting to experience from opening up more and as you say, being more adult and addressing things that need to be addressed? I think the biggest thing is learning that you can speak up and express how you're feeling and communicate even if you feel uncomfortable with those things, and have someone meet you at the table and be okay with it and hold space for you in that situation. Because I think the biggest fear was like that person's just gonna, hit the gas and it's gonna be over. So I think feeling. More comfortable to do that and knowing that it doesn't mean everything has to blow up in your face. Can you share an example? Yeah. If I can speak to my most recent. Dating experience with, the person that I'm currently seeing, there was a few times where I felt like maybe they had pulled away or they were doing certain things that I wasn't comfortable with, and so I decided to address them. God forbid. My God. I was like, can we have a conversation? Can we please sit down and talk about these things? And it wasn't anything major, but it was more just about me practicing opening up about my needs and not softening my edges or just trying to be all cool girl. Like, yeah, I'm fine with that because I kind of was doing that initially and it blew up in my face naturally.'cause the other person thinks that, that's okay. So you started to., I started to open up and communicate certain things that were not sitting right with me. And naturally that is not something I wanted to do. My body was like, run for the hills. Like this is gonna be a disaster. However, I did it, it was met with positivity and acknowledgement and validation and this person was like, I can completely understand that. I wanna work on this for you because I'm committed to this and I want to be in this and you know you are worth my time and energy. And that was like. What the hell, like, you know what I mean? Like I really wasn't expecting it. But it's those little things like that, that are building my confidence and making me feel safer to explore my emotions and be vocal about it and not just feel like I have to just stay silent, which has been my pattern for so long. So it doesn't mean that I'm, this fully fledged, secure person. I'm, I'm probably always gonna be somewhat avoidant, but it's like those little compounding things that have helped me to start to reinvent myself or I guess meet the person that I want to be in relationships. I love that and what I want everyone to hear is that whether you are anxious trying to become secure or avoidant, trying to become more secure, it's. Difficult for both parties. It is not easy. Everyone has their fears of rejection and abandonment and pain, and it does take courage to open up and be vulnerable and let your walls down, whether it's being avoidant, letting that wall down to allow vulnerability and let yourself be seen and heard. Or it's someone who's more anxious and they are trying to be confident in using their voice and not back down from a b oddie snoring in the background. And not let someone step over their boundaries. And yeah, so either side, it takes effort and courage. And what's so important about this is yes, there's a lot of work that we can do. Outside of relationships and on ourselves and with the support of a therapist or a coach or whoever. But a lot of these wounds, these relational wounds, need to be healed relationally. Mm. Which is why I would say that a lot of the healing takes place once you also get into a secure relationship. Yes. We need to do work to get ourselves to the point where we are. Attracting someone on that level with that emotional availability. We need to do work to get there, but once we attract that person in, there's so much healing that takes place in that dynamic because we are learning in real time what it feels like to put those things into practice and to be vulnerable and to communicate and all this stuff. And when you are met with acceptance, understanding, and love on the receiving end. That is so healing. Mm-hmm. And like how did that feel for you when you did that? And he was understanding, I said earlier that a lot of my childhood felt like I was holding my breath. And to be met with that kind of response, that was like completely unexpected. It felt like a big exhale. It was like, okay, this is safe. I can say this. And I know, it doesn't just have to be a one time thing. And I'm gonna be okay in this, in this scenario. That's so beautiful. Don't cry. Please don't cry. I'm uncomfortable. It's um, so funny how many times that will happen. I am like such a heart on my sleeve kind of person, and there's so many instances where Hannah will say something or. I'll say something and she just looks over to me and my eyes are like, welling up. She's like, don't cry again. I'm, you know what, who I am. I'm Kris Jen. She always cries at like, everything. It's so funny and I love watching the Kardashians, and it'll, it'll pan to Kris and she's starting to, she's like, you know, I'm. So proud and like starts crying and then Kim and Chloe and everyone's like, mom. They're like, don't cry. Oh, and I tell you the most basic thing, like about, oh, he did this, and you're just like, Ugh, you are welling up. Oh my God. What's it, I'm gonna go on a bit of a tangent for a moment, but what's it like having a sister who talks about this stuff all the time and who is like a relationship coach and. What's that been like for you? Uh, you know what? I feel like, oh, I feel like I've had secondhand coaching in a way. I think I'm a byproduct of just constantly overhearing everything that you talk about, and I think it's actually been a really positive thing and, and I genuinely enjoy. Talking about it and learning about it, obviously I'm not as enthralled by it as you are, but it's definitely, I think been, you've been this like constant source of me needing to look at myself and also to accept that it's okay to be the way that I am. Obviously, work on myself, but I think there's often a lot of like shame for people who can't really express emotion well or you feel quite disconnected from people because what comes with vulnerability and emotion is connection, and I've struggled with that a lot. So I think. By even just having you accept me as I am and me feeling safe around you to open up and share those parts of myself, it's been quite a, a healing thing for me as well. So you'll get my bill. That's really nice to hear. What would you say you feel the most misunderstood about being someone who's more avoidant? I would say it's probably that people think that kind of, as I said earlier, that you don't really need like emotional support or that you don't have deep emotions or experience anxiety or a lot of the common things that maybe anxiously attach people experience. All those things are very much there. We're not like avoidant people and not sociopaths, like all the emotion is there. It's just. Yeah, I think you often get labeled as like cold or you can't be vulnerable, and I think that's a big part of it. There's a lot of shame around that because it's like you want to be, but it's not a natural thing. So I think maybe for people to remember that, that it's, it's something that's just a coping mechanism and it, it's doesn't mean that person is like not human, like they're heartless and don't care and, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, because I don't think I'm a heartless person. I think it's just that I don't. I don't know, show the warmer parts of myself as easily as maybe someone else would. Mm. It's interesting that you express that you feel shame around it because we feel shame for different things. Mm. For me personally, growing up, I felt so much shame around how much I would express my emotions and how emotional I was. And there was a lot of. Of sort of rejection of that, like being told that you're too emotional and you shouldn't be emotional around other people because you bring other people down. Yeah. So I felt so ashamed of myself from that point of view. And to hear that you feel shame because it's difficult for you to naturally express emotion. And I know certain. I know you've had experiences where people have been like, really put that pressure on you to be like, why won't you open up more? Why won't you be closer to me? Like, why can't you just talk about what you're feeling? Yeah. And I can see that is quite hard for you to hear because as you said, it doesn't come naturally for you and there's shame associated with that. Yeah. I think that's important for people to understand. Yeah, and I think, there's been a lot of times where people have said to me, maybe people that are more. Emotionally in tune, like people would say to you, to me, what's wrong with you? Mm. And that's a really awful thing to hear or to feel like you are defective in some way because you're different to that person. So I think remembering that, people are wired differently. You don't know why they are the way they are. And I think as adults, people just expect that you have your shit together and that you can deal with these things. But, there's always like a history with something. What would you say helps you feel the most, safe and open in a relationship? And maybe people can apply this in their own relationship, so being on your side of the relationship. Someone who maybe struggles a bit more with opening up with vulnerability with emotions. What helps you to feel safe, to open up and to lean into a relationship as opposed to leaning out? I think the biggest thing is having a partner that is comfortable with vulnerability and taking the lead on that. So it's almost. If they can lead with vulnerability and open up a little bit. What I'm noticing now is that it makes me feel safer to open up in response. It's kind of like a call and response thing where they're like, okay, I'm feeling this way, or I'm gonna say how I'm feeling to you. And then they've laid that out on the table and then it makes me feel okay to be like, okay, I can dip my toe in the water here and not feel like I have to run for the hills. So it's like that person kind of opens the door emotionally, but then. Maybe if I'm not ready or I'm not feeling super, vulnerable, they're not gonna push and try to get, blood out of a stone. They're not gonna try and force me to speak about what I'm feeling or open up about emotions. It's more okay, I'm here when you're ready and I'll let you come to me and that's okay. I think that's the biggest thing. Mm, that makes a lot of sense. And I think for those of us who are on the anxious side. The coping mechanism, when we experience space or distance in the relationship, it feels really scary and uncomfortable. And so for many people who are anxious, the. The way that they, they try to deal with that is by leaning in further and almost trying to like, push you to open up and give me that validation. Tell me how you're feeling. Like, because we, you need to hear it and feel it in order to feel safe. But what I'm hearing from you is that doing that actually only pushes you away more and makes you clam up. And what you need is patience and understanding like yes. Have the other person say how they feel and what they need, but then give space for you to then meet them in the middle. Yeah, a hundred percent. And I think also with that, if you are an anxiously attached person and your partner is avoidant, I think also it's the partner's responsibility as an avoidant to say. I don't think I have the capacity for this right now. Please just gimme some space. I know you need the reassurance, but I'll come to you when I'm ready. That's where your role is to give that reassurance to the other person. And then vice versa, let them come to you. Mm mm And I guess final question is if you could speak to someone who identifies as actually anxiously attached and they've been hurt by an avoidant partner. What would you want them to know? Maybe around, I'm thinking, what I'm imagining people would be wondering is like, how long do I stay with that person? How long should I stay with someone who is presenting as avoidant and then not opening up and then not meeting my needs? And maybe they give me like little bits here and there, but ultimately it's hurting them more. Knowing what you know now. Mm-hmm. Based on who you were, what your behaviors were, what you've learned, and how you've started to shift into a more secure pattern. Like what would you wanna say to that person who's anxiously attached about when to draw the line and stuff? Yeah, I think it's obviously like a case by case thing and I, I don't think I could necessarily put a timeframe on it, but I think from personal experience, it does take. If I'm just speaking about myself, it takes me longer to trust and to not be skeptical of someone. And. To feel comfortable in a relationship, maybe more so than it does for someone who's anxiously attached to kind of really craves that like love and affection. I think as long as both people are putting effort into the relationship and willing to work on those parts of themselves and not just as the avoidant person running away, not facing or dealing with things, I think it's worth putting the time and energy into it. But if it kind of hits a point where it plateaus and you are still feeling like you are not getting your needs met and the other person has kind of. I don't know, just given up a little bit. Maybe that's then time to question like, is this really the right relationship for me? Mm. I love that. Yeah. Because people who, two people anxious and avoidant, they actually can exist in a relationship and they can, as you said, if both people are willing to put in the work to heal, they can end up having quite a. A functioning relationship, maybe that works for them. Mm. But what I'm hearing is like if you are someone who's anxious and you're trying your best to become secure, you're trying to make a relationship work, but your partner who's more emotionally unavailable, if you feel that they're not actually putting in any conscious effort to resolve the issues and to meet you where you are at, and they're deflecting pulling away, tiptoeing around it, making you feel like you're the problem. Mm-hmm. That's probably a sign that that relationship's not actually serving you because that partner is not willing to do the work. Yeah. To make it work. A hundred percent. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Any final thoughts, feelings, anything you wanna share before we wrap up? Anything I wanna share? I'm sweating like a pig. Because it's so hot today. But no, I've, this has actually been quite insightful for me to once again articulate my thoughts and feelings and I wasn't sure I was gonna be able to do it, but just more evidence to the contrary. I think just everyone deserves to be understood. And accepted for who they are, even though everyone's different. And that's, that's the beauty of it. So, yeah. Thanks for having me on. Amen. Well, thank you for coming onto the pod. I'm sure everyone has gotten so much value and insight from this episode. I know I have. Even just, even though we've spoken many times about this stuff, it's really interesting to hear you. Share new layers of yourself. So thank you for opening up and being vulnerable and communicating well. Done. Snaps. Snaps for Hannah. Yes. And if you listener found value in this episode and maybe you learned something that you didn't know before about what it's like for someone on the. Other side of the spectrum, I would love to hear about it. Jump over to Instagram, send me a message and send some love to Hannah as well for being on the pod. And yeah, thank you so much. If you enjoyed today's episode, hit that subscribe button and leave a review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Share this episode with your friends and come find me on social so we can hang out between episodes. All the links are below in the show notes.