Ep #67: Intensity Isn’t Intimacy & Are YOU The Love Bomber?!

In this episode, I’m sharing a conversation where I was interviewed by the amazing Drea Renee on her podcast ‘Hey Babe, Can We Talk?’

This is such a fun, value-packed conversation where we’re not just talking about what’s been happening to you in dating, but also how you might be unintentionally keeping yourself stuck in the exact patterns you say you want to break.

We get into what my own dating life used to look like — constantly thinking about the person I was seeing, needing their attention to feel okay, and calling it “connection”… when really, it was anxiety running the show. We also go into love bombing in a really honest way. We dissect how it shows up in another person, AND, the role we can play in speeding things up, getting swept up, and ignoring what we already know deep down.

In this episode, you’ll learn:
• Why what you call “connection” might actually be anxiety
• The subtle ways you might be participating in the patterns you feel stuck in
• What love bombing really looks like — beyond the obvious
• How to tell the difference between feeling calm… and feeling consumed
• Why shifting your focus back onto yourself changes everything

🎧 Tune in now! And if this episode resonates, send me a DM on Instagram — I’d love to hear your biggest takeaway.

CONNECT WITH DREA!
IG: https://www.instagram.com/heybabecanwetalk/
Podcast: https://open.spotify.com/show/5IHI4Nis2q39tAsMC6Zr3O?si=d2fbcbba9c91427c

MIMI SOCIAL MEDIA
Come say hi 👋 (or DM me your biggest takeaway) on Instagram HERE!

Transcript

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you are listening to the Secure Love Club podcast. I'm your host, Mimi. What. Hey friends. Welcome back to the Club. In today's episode, I'm sharing an interview I did on another podcast, and it was such a good conversation that I just knew I had to bring it to you here as well. In this episode, I sat down with Drea Renee from, Hey Babe, can We Talk an Amazing Relationship podcast? We got into all things on anxious attachment, of course, but from a slightly different angle than what I usually share. We talk a lot about my own personal journey, so what my dating life used to look like when I was still stuck in those anxious patterns. I was constantly chasing, overthinking, and. Making someone else responsible for how I felt and the shift I had to make to actually become securely attached. We also got into some really important conversations around things like confusing intensity for connection. Love bombing, including the uncomfortable truth of how we can sometimes participate in it ourselves and what it looks like to regulate your emotions instead of outsourcing everything to the person you are dating. There's a moment in this episode that I think is really going to land for you, where we talk about the difference between finding calm and safe in a connection versus being caught in an anxious spiral where you're trying to chase safety and security from the wrong person and how to tell the difference between the two. So if you've ever found yourself questioning your patterns or wondering why you keep ending up in the same dynamic or trying to figure out how to be secure and what that even looks like, then this conversation is going to give you a lot to sit with. We have so much fun. Drea just has the best energy and we are really vibing in this conversation. There are so many juicy nuggets, so please enjoy and I'll see you on the other side. What's up everyone? Welcome into, Hey babe. Cam, we talk with me, your host, invest Dre Renee, if this is your first time here, welcome. On today's episode, we have relationship coach and podcast host Mimi Watt with us, and I am so excited you guys. Today we're gonna be talking about how we're going from anxious attachment to secure attachment, and she is the one you want to watch and the one you want to listen to. This is a really special and important episode, especially if you've ever been confused with intensity. Versus intimacy. So we're gonna talk about her journey from anxious attachment to secure attachment, and we're gonna talk about what deeply resonates with you and navigating modern dating and relationships. We're gonna be unpacking love bombing, which is one of my favorite subjects to talk about, not just receiving it, but also the uncomfortable question of whether we've ever participated in it for ourselves. So this conversation is about awareness, healing, and learning how to build relationships that feel safe. Instead of confusing. So Mimi, I'm super excited to have you here. Thank you so much for joining us girlfriend. Thank you for being here. I wanna just first say, when I saw your page, I was so drawn to everything that you were doing'cause you just spoke to me and my own personal journey, really working towards that path of, you know, secure attachment. So tell us a little bit about yourself and your own journey with anxious attachment and secure attachment. I would love to, first of all, Drea, thank you for having me and, uh, what a beautiful introduction. I'm so excited to be here. I'm very drawn to your energy as well, so I think it's a, the feeling is mutual. Yay. And yeah. Yay. So, as you mentioned, I am a dating and relationship coach and podcast host. I'm from Australia. And I support ambitious driven women in healing their anxious attachment system and becoming more secure within themselves so that they can attract healthy love and healthier relationships, which is something that I know all of us want. I'm sure many of your listeners want, and I got onto this journey. About three years ago. I've been in the coaching space for about five years, coming up to six years. Wow. However, I pivoted into relationship coaching and in this niche specifically after I guess my own journey with relationships. It's been one of the biggest journeys and transformations that I personally have undergone. And as we all know, relationships are a very big, impactful part of our life, and. I used to be incredibly anxious in my dating life and in my relationships. Mm-hmm. I'm talking my entire self-worth and happiness and joy, like completely hinged on the person that I was dating, and there didn't really use to be a lot of substance in my relationships. It was very much, what can I get from this person to make me feel? Happy or to make me feel less anxious even. And I guess my history with relationships was that I was dating essentially the same person with a different face every time. And it was just back to back to back relationships. As soon as one, you know, imploded, as it always did, I would then be onto the next relationship as soon as I could. And in those relationships I always felt extremely anxious. Mm-hmm. I felt. Uh, my confidence was low. My self-worth was low. I would make excuses for the poor behavior of my partners, you know, justifying. Um, I would feel invalidated, not seen or understood, and this was the pattern for so many years until. One breakup in particular in 2020, I was in a relationship with a man who was extremely avoidant, right? Yeah. So if we look at the, the spectrum of the attachment styles, there's the anxious on one end, there's avoidant on the other, and then secure is in the middle and the avoidant end of the spectrum, you know, you are dealing with people who are extremely emotionally unavailable and unavailable. Girl, woo. Unavailable. Oh my gosh. Unfortunately, that's the magic word for a long time. Yeah. Ironically, it's the anxious and the avoidance that attract each other the most. Right. Even though they want opposite things. And so I was with someone as usual who was very avoidant and this relationship just. Turned me upside down. Basically like when we broke up, I remember just thinking, I cannot continue to do this again. I cannot be in relationships like this. It is too painful. Surely this isn't how it's supposed to be because this is the last time I would see other people in, you know, healthy relationships, who were happy, they were calm, things were great, and I was like, why can they have that? And I can't. What is this right? And I kind of had to really take a step back and ask myself, okay, there's a pattern here, and when there's a pattern, there is a common denominator and it's me. Wow. So really that is like the best revelation to have when you're going through this because that was a big turning point. And I hope that everyone listening, if you are, are, are experiencing this when you can take accountability and look at yourself. Everything can change from that moment. You are the common denominator. I was the common denominator, right? Yeah, a hundred percent. And it's, I love that the taking accountability is where the transformation really begins. Because when we are outsourcing responsibility for our problems and we are maintaining this victim mentality, we are not gonna go anywhere. We are gonna stay exactly where we are. So with that realization, I remember. Actually my oldest sister, she had been trying to get me to read this particular book for years called Attached. And she, yes, was similar to me. Like she had gone through her anxious journey and she could recognize that I had signs of anxious attachment. And she's like, you need to read this book, you need to read this book. And I kept pushing it away and pushing it away because. You know, I wasn't ready to, I think, face that truth. And sometimes it's really confronting when you look at the things that you've done. You look at your partners, you really take responsibility for your choices. That's a scary space to be in.'cause then you have the responsibility of changing it. And that's a whole other thing, right? It's easy to walk around when you're like, I don't know what's wrong with me. But then someone's like, here's some tools. And you're like, oh, okay. Exactly. Yeah. And it's like you don't see it until you internally make that decision that you're ready to see it and you're, and you want to change. Right? And so this was that, that time. And I, and I was like, okay, give me that damn book. And I took it. And Drea, I am not kidding you, I inhaled this book. It was just, it was like for the first time in my life, my eyes were being opened to why things were so hard in relationships. Most importantly, I think what was so healing and shifted my identity so quickly was realizing that, hang on, there isn't something actually wrong with me. This is, I love that there's just a certain conditioning, a certain blueprint that I have been. Operating from as a result of things I went through in my childhood that now has me viewing relationships a certain way and has me being attracted to a certain type of person that's going to continue this dynamic. And if this is something I learned, I can unlearn it and I can move towards secure attachment. And that was so profound because with people who are anxious in relationships. There's a lot of shame as associated with it, right? So much shame you might have felt that, but there's this sense of. I, there's something wrong with me. Why can't I just, why do I always end up dating these toxic people? Yes, hurt me, but I keep going back for more and it's like, you think there's something wrong and, and that shame is really crippling and isolating. And so when my guess my feelings were validated, which is so important, then I could release some of that shame. And I think when we release that, we begin to, we're able to take steps forward to change. And so. Yeah, taking that agency is the most important thing because that's where, like I said earlier, that's where that real transformation comes from and it's amazing that you got that book and you read it right away. I feel sometimes when I've been given tools and things, I wasn't ready. It took me like, you know, a couple months and the book's just staring at me for a long time, and then finally I took the steps to do so. But what it sounds like is like you finally just took agency of your life and you didn't stay in that. Muddy space of, you know, I'm gonna keep doing this. I'm dating the same person. You were able to, you know, take action. I mean, eventually, but I think eventually, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. For like three years, right? Yeah. But life's funny like that. You know, there's a sort of analogy that I always come back to, which is when there's something that needs to change within you in your life, the universe will throw a little pebble at you, right? There'll be some sort of sign or experience, and we ignore it. And then the universe will throw a rock at you and you're like, oh, okay. That hurt a little bit more, but not too bad. So I'm gonna continue doing what I'm doing. And then if we still don't pay attention, the universe will throw a. Freaking huge boulder at us and knock us over and be like, ah, okay, fine. I'll change. It takes what it takes. I always say the universe whispers, and then the universe has me in a choke hold yelling at me going, Drea, what is, and you know what's so crazy Mimi is even with a choke hold sometimes I'm like. Are you sure? You know, I still need to be deep. I kind of like it. I kind of like it low key, but I'm like, what? It's familiar, and that's what I want everyone listening to understand these patterns are so comfortable because it's familiar, it's natural wiring. When you're used to being with the person who's the push and pull, the hot and cold dangling the carrot, that is what we know. So if somebody shows up available, then that. Those levels of a relationship is really scary, but I got used to the person not calling me back. I got used to, I love what you said at the beginning, when it's all consuming, it's, it's your entire world. The text message, the date, the moment after the date, how long they met. I mean, I'm not thinking about anything in my life other than how do I get this person to be with me? Exactly. That's it, right? Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. It is. It is all consuming and I think at our core we are primal animals and we do have this instinct within us to want to chase and pursue and, you know, win something over. So I guess that natural instinct combines with anxious attachment patterns is like a recipe for disaster in a way. It's just such disaster, and I think so many people think that. Your healing journey is just about finding that right person, but it's deeper than that. It's really about becoming regulated within yourself, and it took me a long time to think I need to self-soothe. Oh my gosh. Because everything was outsourced, right? I had to call my therapist. I called my mother, I called my girlfriends, and then if these people aren't available. Then I spun out, but then I had to sit with my feelings. Did you, do you have experience with that, that journey of self-soothing for yourself? You know what I'm saying? Oh, 1000%. I hear you. And it is that like, I love the way you said that you were like. I need to self-soothe. And so confusing what? It's sort of like this very, once, once you get the, your head around it, it's quite a simple concept, but yes. Before that point you are like, what? Like self-soothe, regulate. What is that? I don't care about that. Like, just gimme the person. Period. Yeah. Right. And this was a big part of my healing journey. So when I was at that point where I realized things needed to change, I went and invested in a relationship, coach myself. I was reading, I was doing all the things. And I learned also that one of the, or the underpinning really of what shifts you from anxious to secure is learning to create that sense of safety within yourself to becoming your own safe space. Because what we know in our body, what we learned when we are anxious, is that the safety that we create has to be outsourced. Because, I mean, I don't know how deep of a rabbit hole you want me to go down here go, oh, let's go into it. Let's do it. Well, I'll keep it in a nutshell. When we are children, when we are very young, we are literally dependent on our parents for survival. We are dependent on them to feed us, to shelter us, to clothe us, to love us. Right? And the emotional connection is essential because when we are children, we don't know how to regulate our emotions, right? We just have tantrums, we cry, we scream. We don't know how to regulate, and we are completely dependent on our parents to help us do that. Mm-hmm. And so if you had parents who were, couldn't meet those emotional needs or who were, maybe they were physically present, but emotionally absent, like every time you were sad, they told you to go to your room and deal with it on your own, or they just dismissed you in some way, whether it was really obvious or subtle. Right. We then don't, we don't complete that process of, of. Having the emotions being soothed and regulated. And so it's almost as if those experiences become these microtraumas that just get like trapped in our body. And we take that trauma into our adult relationships. And so we basically shift our focus from the parent was the primary attachment figure who's meant to help me feel good, but that didn't happen. So then as I grow up into my adult relationships, the primary attachment figure is. The romantic partner. And so we think, well, I, I needed to get that from my parent. I didn't get it. So now I'm gonna try and get that from my partner. I'm gonna feel this through my partner. Yeah. Yeah. And I just find this so fascinating and it was so liberating when I was able to. Finally put that together because I think a lot of us feel like we're running around like a chicken with our head cut off. We don't know what's going on with us. And then you get that realization. You look at those past patterns of how we showed up to our, to our parents and for me, father, daughter, a lot of stuff that happened there for me where I was unconsciously trying to heal those wounds. And you know, I've heard people say, I've heard different schools of thought. You know, some people say. You can meet someone that can heal that for you, but that's not really the path you wanna go. Right? If we're, if we're just trying to pacify each other's wounds, we're not really getting to the core of what the issue is. We're just kind of putting a bandage on it. But really getting to that space of self-regulation where you want to. Want your partner. But I know for me, I've needed my partners where I thought I was gonna die if they left me. Mm-hmm. And I, and I, I finally, I was like, I don't know if it's supposed to be like that now. I like, I'm a romantic and I love all the passionate love and I can't live without you. But at, at its core, when it's really like, what are we doing here? Are we regulated? Is this healthy? It's like, I want to more just want my partner because they're in addition to my happiness, but they're not the only source. Of my happiness, and that's where I was doing it wrong, right? Mm-hmm. Because, because of what you're talking about, this, I didn't get the needs met, so hello, sir. That, I don't know, can you fix my childhood? Okay. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah, exactly. And that's really what's going on, and it's on such a subconscious level, right? Yeah. Because what's happening up here, like what we are. Thinking and understanding of the world and taking in, in our conscious mind is so limited. It's so small in comparison to what our body remembers and what our subconscious is processing and feeling and searching for. It's, it's so different. And so when we are feeling that need, like you said, like I need my hot, I need it, need me. I need it. I need it, girl. Yeah, and, and that's actually, it's bringing up a memory for me when this was before, this was in like 2016 or something. Around that time I was in a. A relationship, of course, anxious avoidant, and it was a weekend, and I remember my partner wasn't available to hang out on like the Saturday night and I was with my sister and I had to go home. It was the afternoon. And I remember almost being in this state of. Panic that I had to go and be by myself and I couldn't be with my partner. I remember it so viscerally. I was standing on the street and I nearly had a panic attack.'cause I was like, I like, I need to go home and be alone and I don't wanna be alone and I need my partner. And you know, when we're in that state. Like you said earlier, you're just so anxious that you can't actually be present in your life. Nope. You can't enjoy anything else. Like when you're with your friends, you're not actually with your friends, you're in your mind. No. Or you're checking your phone constantly to see if your partners message you. When we're in that state, we are definitely dysregulated and we are not in a healthy relationship with ourselves or with our partners. Exactly. We are so not in a healthy space. And, and I find, you know, I latch on a little bit tighter, right? So one of the things we're also gonna talk about today is love bombing. And I, it was from your page, I think, where I was like, wait, have I loved bomb people before? Because, you know, I hear all these things of these sort of negative connotations of ways to be in a relationship, and of course it can be me, me, me. I've never done anything wrong. Obviously not. It's not, I mean, he love bombed me and that's why I fell in love, you know, whatever. No, no accountability. But eventually I thought, wow, you know, there's healthy enthusiasm. Then there's love bombing and also your choice to continue to engage in something that you may think is love bombing is still, you're playing a part in it, right? So there's that too. So let's say they are love bombing you, but if you're showing up for it with the knowledge that it's happening happening, you're still an accomplice to the love bombing. And so I started to realize maybe I didn't start it every time, but I definitely met the energy this fast furious. Fierce connection that I'm always thinking is gonna end up amazing. And a lot of times, I'm not saying every time there are outlier situations for those listening.'cause someone's like, oh my God, we started hot and have you, we've been married for 20 years. I love that for you. But like. The rule is not normally that, you know? And sometimes you Yeah. That's the exception. That's the exception period. So it's like, great, but I need to take, take my time and really distinguish between the healthy enthusiasm.'cause it's so intoxicating at first. Mm-hmm. And when you've had a bunch of moments like that, then you start to go, okay, what's the pattern here? So what's been your experience with love bombing? And when you're like, wait, am I doing it? Are they doing it? What has that experience been like for you? Yeah, I love this question. I think personally from my experience, I've probably been a lot more on the, the side of re being the receiver of the love bombing and as you said, meeting that energy. Because I think most of us who are anxious, we are the ones who get swept up. We are more vulnerable, we are more, I don't like this word, but I was gonna say desperate. Maybe we are more eager for attention, babe. So familiar and I, I've been desperate. There's no shame. Okay. I've been so desperate in the past. Desper is what I used to say to myself. Are we being Desper right now? Desperado. We are desperado for the love and the attention validation because like I said earlier, we didn't get it enough as a child and we don't know how to give it to ourselves. So we are very receptive and I almost think that. People who are prone to love bombing, others can sense that can sniff that out. And again, like I said, subconsciously your subconscious picks up on these micro behaviors and these patterns in other people where it's like, Ooh, I just know I can target you. Or as the anxious, Ooh, I just know you're probably gonna do that thing that I always, it always happens like with the love bombing and it's like crack right? Addiction. So I have for sure been love bombed, and the way that I would categorize love bombing is the amount of attention. Uh, an affection that someone is giving you is quite disproportionate to the amount of time you've really known this person. Okay? So someone comes into your life, they're a stranger, they're a complete stranger, and after. They ha you've been on one date with them, two dates, or you've been chatting for a couple of weeks and they are just dotting on you hand and foot. They're telling you how amazing you are. They're wanting to see you all the time saying things like, that's a big one. That's a big one. Yeah. Yeah. They're wanting to move quickly and it feels really good as the anxious person or on the receiving end because you're like, oh my God, like, yes, yes. This is just meeting that need. This is, you know, soothing that wound. This is so amazing and beautiful. Right, and we go on this extreme high really quickly, which is dangerous because. When you go up back quickly, like whatever goes up must come down. So the sharper you are going up, the more intense you are gonna come crashing down on the other side as opposed to that slow burn, which is much more gradual and an even keel. So yeah, I've been on the receiving end of that, and I guess it's one of those things where until you identify it as a pattern, you don't fully realize it's been going on until after the fact. Where you kind of look back when maybe it's been really amazing and intense for a month or a couple of months, and then as soon as the person who's love bombing senses, they've won you over. Yep. They just drop off and all of a sudden they become more distant, they're busy, they don't have time. You know, stuff comes up and you are left like feeling like an idiot, and you're like, what, what? What the hell happened? It was so amazing. Right. There's that sharp drop off and you realize, oh, that was love for me. It's the, uh, it really is the worst feeling ever and it's when that intensity, it often just feels like connection'cause of our childhood wounds and it's, our nervous systems are just craving the reassurance. And, you know, I used to jokingly say, and sometimes I still do'cause it is kind of still true. I'm like a validation addict, you know? Mm-hmm. Because listen. This healing journey, this working on yourself? To me, it is a lifelong journey. I don't think there's anywhere that you graduate, you start to see little pieces of yourself, and I really want everyone listening to hear this. There's no perfection place, right? There's places that you see and you look back and you go, oh, I handled that differently. Oh, I still got some work to do on this thing. But there's no, you know, ceremony where it's like, all right, you've graduated the anxious attachment. You are clear, honey. Go ahead. But you start to put the pieces together of, oh, I, I am self-soothing, I am securely attached, but it is a journey. You know, girl, I've listening to us talk right now and I'm thinking, are there like two avoidance right now doing a podcast? Talking about all these things, but I'm like, they're not gonna do it'cause they're avoided. You know? I'm like, I would love to hear two avoidance sitting there talking about, yeah, you know, I didn't call her back and or call them back or whatever happened. You know what I mean? Content on that. Because I, I, I think there is a lot, I'm not saying that there isn't content out there about avoidance, but it's usually, I feel like the anxious attached people talking about the avoidance, because my brain does not process that I'm there. I wanna show up. And there been some situations where I maybe became avoidant because a person was really available. Yeah. And that's another piece of being anxiously attached, because again, mm-hmm. You gotta play your role. So I play my familiar role. Mm-hmm. But if someone has been, you know, available, Hey, Drea, like I, with my partner now, there were a couple times where he, it was full stop. I like you, I'm going to be consistent and I'm showing up. Girl, Mimi, I was like. Okay, listen, you need to, I need to go. Please wait, because I don't know this, I don't know you. Like, I thought I was gonna know you, you know, and it was a whole other journey. So that's a conversation I think is also really important is that it is possible for those things to shift, because then I know my anxiously attached locker room, that's, that's where she puts her stuff over there. I put my stuff over there, you know, I know that whole space. But if it's like it starts to shift, I get a little bit. Uncomfortable. So I've had to relearn this other space. Do you have any experience with that? Oh yes. Completely picking up what you're putting down. Oh my gosh, it's so interesting and yeah, I've heard so many clients of mine and people I speak to who are anxious and they're like, yeah. But then when I meet someone who is available, I become the avoidant one and I'm like pulling away and I'm getting the ick almost from someone who is available. What is happening? My girl. I get it. I get it because I have been there and it's really confronting because we're so used, our nervous system is so wired for that chase and that. Yeah. You know, we're in that fight or flight all the time. We know it. It someone, yeah. When someone is there, and like you said, they're like, I like you. I'm into you. I'm available. I'm gonna be consistent. I'm present and I want this. If you just sing it Now, Mimi, I said, Mimi, slow down. Hold on, hold on a second girl. Okay. And you're like, what? What? What do I do with that? Like what? And a lot of people, when they're not ready to truly step into a secure relationship, will sabotage that safe. Connection. They will sabotage it because it feels boring is what I hear a lot. Like there's boring. I just don't feel that spark. I just don't think this is, this is anything special. Um, so they end it. And so the reason this is happening is because we don't feel safe with this type of presence, with this type of availability. Yeah, we've never experienced it, so our nervous system is so wound up so tight that when there's safety, we don't know it, we don't understand it, so we push it away. And I felt that many times. I can think back now, like before I. You did a lot of the healing work. There are specific people I can remember who came into my orbit and who wanted to date me and were really nice people. And I think a part of me knew that at the time where actually I, I remember like I had a choice. There was these two guys, and one of them was the avoidant, mysterious, like bad boy, what we know. Obviously I was drawn to him and then there was this guy who was so kind and lovely and available and I was like, oh, you're really nice, but like, sorry, you're not doing anything for me. Where's the carrot dangle? Like, that's what I know. Yeah. And so I kept sabotaging, uh, until after I had done the work. And then I realized, I'm like, oh, hang on. This is a good thing and this is actually everything that I've been asking for. And when with my ex-partner, we had a beautiful, healthy, secure relationship. And I remember in the first few months we were together feeling this really strong temptation to want to create drama and create a fight so I could feel that intensity because there was none. There was no drama and. I actually took those feelings to him and I told him what was coming up and I was like, oh, this is probably gonna sound really bad. But I've been noticing the urge to wanna just like start an argument with you or create drama because I'm not used to this. Like it being so easy and to my surprise, he completely got it and he said, me too. Because I used to date women who were emotionally unavailable. And I get what you're saying. I was about to say that's the only reason he understood you because he had to have had that experience.'cause if he was an avoidant, that might have been a different reaction. Yeah. Interesting. So we understood it and I think that was a really important moment because it allowed us to feel even closer and we could understand each other. And we realized, we're like, okay, we are both feeling this. In what other ways do we wanna spice up our connection, or what do we wanna do where we can feel that intensity, but in a healthy way together? And that's part of the journey. And you know, as you said earlier, in a secure relationship, it's not like you get into that and all of a sudden you are healed and you're perfect and you don't have any. Shit come up. Like if anything, so much more healing happens in the secure relationship because as we said, your nervous system is still learning to settle down, to unwind. You're gonna wanna be reactive to things. So much comes up and it's how you are. Choosing to respond like I did in that situation, rather than react how you are opening up and being vulnerable with your partner about what's coming up for you, how you are working as a team, and. You do need to have someone who is like your partner sounds who is emotionally available and secure, who's gonna be there to do that healing with you because you have to have both people wanting to, to do the work. You can't have just one. Exactly. I mean that, I love that you brought this example up about,'cause essentially what happened is you had a bit of a rupture that we, you tried to create, which I've done Mimi very many time. But there was a, there was a very. Amazing moment of repair there, right? You were able to restore that connection'cause you were honest and vulnerable about how you felt and that Mimi is really hard and I want everyone here listening. Once you get to that point where you are putting in those seeds of secure attachment within your life. Within your relationship, you're gonna attract different people, number one. So you were able to attract this partner that you were able to have that conversation of repair with. When you're in this anxious attachment avoidance stuff, we're not even really getting to repair. We're just putting bandaids over our, our wounds, and you continue to be anxious. You continue to be avoidant, and we wait for the next. Storm to break, you know? Yeah. Because everybody knows, oh, this is just, and, and this isn't a heterosexual relationship, you know, this is is what the woman does. This is what the guy does. Or, you know, vice versa, whatever your your choice is. But everybody gets used to these patterns, and I love that you talked about repair, because this is what's on the other side of the journey of us working on ourselves. You will attract different people and you do have to allow yourself, which I'm in that space now, the grace to show up a little bit like. I don't know. And, and you gotta have a partner who's wanting to do the work. You, I, you can have somebody who's, you know, had some healthy relationships, but when you're going deeper, it's really scary that level of intimacy and, and, and knowing like, is this me being anxiously attached? Or what's a real connection? You know? And that's something else I wanted to ask you about distinguishing between those two.'cause I know I've had a bit of a difficult time throughout my life, like knowing, like. Is this urgent? Like, is this like my stuff or is this part of the relationship? Because, do you know what I'm saying? Yeah. Like how have you, you know, navigated that in your life? What's coming up for me is the biggest. The biggest thing to look out for, to know if you're building something real is really to look out for how you feel with that person. And the key word being safe. So do you feel safe in your body when you're together? And do you feel safe when you're not together? I think that is even more important. That's so good. Yeah, because it's, when you are in someone else's presence, it's very easy to, you can see them, you can touch them, you can read their face, you can, you can talk, and so you can get a lot of instant feedback. But when you are not together, if you are able to still feel grounded and safe, and. You have this feeling within you of like, they're there. They're not going anywhere. They're consistent because you know the way they've shown up. That is a really beautiful green flag that you wanna be looking out for, and that tells you that you are healing, you are with someone who you feel your body feels safe with. That is so important. From there, you very well may still have anxious tendencies coming up and, and anxious thoughts. Mm-hmm. And one distinguishing thing that I like to use is the difference between, uh, your anxiety or your intuition, right? Mm-hmm. Some people are like, okay, something's coming up for me in the relationship, but how do I know if it's my staff or if actually I can't trust this person, or there's genuinely something wrong. And the the anxiety and the anxious stuff is gonna feel very much up in your head. So it feels like these racing thoughts, it's spiraling. You are projecting, you're imagining these worst case scenarios when. Maybe nothing has actually happened to validate it, but it's just your fear coming online versus when there's probably genuinely something off. You're gonna feel it more down in your gut space. It's gonna feel like it's not gonna feel urgent or racy or flighty. It's gonna feel like this constant knowing, you know, when you are talking to someone and maybe you bring something up and they're saying all this stuff to justify themselves and to reassure you that everything's fine. Yeah. And they can say everything, but this feeling in your gut doesn't go away. Your body knows something's wrong. Body keeps the score. Yeah. That's when probably like, okay, there's something I really need to address here. I need to not ignore this. Um, but the, yeah, the anxious stuff, as long as you are doing your part to self-soothe and to regulate and to understand. What's coming up for you, which I always recommend having the support of someone outside of the relationship to help you when you're on that journey. Um, right, a therapist or a coach or a mentor. But then also being with someone like you said, who you do feel safe enough to open up with and be vulnerable with, and let them in on the things that you are processing and really for a secure partner as well, like those bits of reassurance that you need. They're not a big deal. They shouldn't be a big deal, but we are. Right. We've been conditioned to think it is a big deal, right? Oh yes. Like when you date someone who's avoidant, any little bit of reassurance you need is too much. Especially as women. Especially as women, we get told and have been made to feel that our needs are too much and, and when you are dating someone. Doesn't wanna have these conversations. It, it feels like you're climbing up this mountain alone. You know, you're very lucky. I feel like, and, and everyone listening, I really want you to listen to this. You know, if you do have a partner, even if they aren't doing it perfectly willingness. Will take you so far in a relationship. Mm. If you are willing to do it, you can say, Hey baby, listen, I don't know much about all this what you're talking about, but I love you and I'm willing, we can sit down and read a book. I'm not gonna be perfect at this, but I'm willing to show up and I'm willing to do it. That is, amen. So beautiful. Then someone's like, I, I'm not doing it and just shuts it down. And what I got from what you were saying, and this is what was coming up for me, I was listening to you, it's like attachment is. Is loud. Like when you're, those feelings that are coming up your body, they're heavy. But if you're feeling really connected, I love what you said Mimi, about when you're not with them, it was so beautiful. Mm-hmm. Because you, you do feel calm. There's a connection within your relationship and then you feel calm. So really, I have goosebumps right now really listening to your body. Really.'cause I was like, that is so true. Because I think sometimes we do. Clock these things, but I think it's important to articulate and verbalize it and really point it out like, Ooh, I do feel. Great. Like if I call my boyfriend right now and he doesn't answer, I do not go, oh my God, what is he doing? Why didn't he answer the phone? Mm-hmm. I'm he, well, he is he gonna call me back within eight minutes anyway, so he already knows, you know what I mean? But it is like,'cause he knows, he's like, oh, lemme let me Drea, Hey listen, I'm at okay honey, it, everything's fine. You know, like he knows and, and vice versa. You know, we have the same, it's interesting, we do have the same attachment style, so our language around this. That's another reason he can very much understand. Mm-hmm. And if I don't answer or I don't hear from him for a little bit, nothing in my mind feels like dysregulated of like, why didn't he? Because I know that the connection for me with him is calm in that way. So I really, oh. That was such a beautiful nugget.'cause I think that will really help a lot of people think about what do I feel not about when I'm with him. Because we talk a lot about that, but no girl. What do you feel like when you, in the car, when you leave, when you in the shower, when you think about him, you're doing your makeup, what is your body doing? Do you feel like anxious? Are, are you leaning into the connection Right. In this beautiful way? And so as you're moving from anxious attachment to everyone listening to that secure attachment, what do you think is like the most impactful shift internally that you made for yourself on this journey? Right. Like, so for me, the biggest thing, like we said, was the self-soothing, right? And, and then like that need, and the pause for me was the biggest internal shift because that changed everything for me, where I went, even when people were available. I said, Hey, let me check in with Drea before I outsource all of this information. And he said this, and I feel this. Let's just sit with this for a second. So that was my biggest shift when I was like moving over and I'm still on the journey very much so that's why your page spoke to me so loudly.'cause I was like, oh, I still got some work to do. Yeah. Yeah. The work is, you know, the work never stops and it reveals itself in different layers and different forms. And I think with every. New person that you are with, or even just different as your partner and you both evolve and grow, there's always gonna be different layers of healing to work through, and that's a beautiful thing. Mm-hmm. It's, it's part of life. To answer your question, for me it was very similar. So what has been the biggest shift has really been repairing my relationship with myself. That was something I had to learn because I always thought it was about repairing your relationship with other people, but the one you have with yourself is what sets the tone for every other relationship, and I realized I had been abandoning. My inner child, the, the part of me that was yearning for this love and attention, I had been abandoning her. Every time I turned to find that external soothing and external validation, I was just doing the same thing to her that my parents, you know, not intentionally did to me. And so. It sounds simple, but similar to you when I realized there's that anxiety, there's that pain or fear coming up instead of turning out, turn in, and just even placing a hand on your heart and slowing down for a second and taking a few breaths and really asking you like. I'm here. Like, what is it? You know, what is it? Love? What are you feeling? What? What do you need right now? And so often the need is simple. It's, I just need affection. I just need some words of reassurance. I need some comfort. And give practice. Giving that to yourself first, right? It doesn't mean that you can't still want or need that from other people or from your partner. We are meant to depend on each other. But if you can start to heal that fracture and, and deepen that bond with yourself first, you're going to feel so much stronger and so much more grounded in your relationships. And that work is, it's a devotion. It's something that you need to keep working on. You can't just do it for one month and then think that's it. It's a constant devotional practice to keep coming back to yourself and prioritizing that relationship first. Exactly, and it can feel a little strange at first. And I love that you said you have to keep coming back to it.'cause I think, you know, especially when you're in the self-help field, you pick up a lot of things and, and. At the point of initial impact of whatever the situation is, right? We're all very emotional and there's a lot of feelings, and then it starts to balance itself out, and that's when you really gotta stay in the work because it is easy. You just get done with somebody, you know, they, they don't want to talk to you, they broke up with you, and you're feeling really hurt and you're sad, and then you start to get like your, your, your mojo back. But in those moments of getting your mojo back, you still gotta show up for that person inside, because I think that's when we. Tend to abandon ourselves in the sense that we aren't paying attention, we're just on autopilot living our lives. We're going on the dates, and I got it figured out. But that person inside that, that you're gonna need to talk to at some point's, like I thought we were checking in with each other every day. Mm-hmm. And then you stop doing that, you know? Mm-hmm. Because I, yeah, I, that's just how it goes. It's like a pendulum and then it slows and it stops, and then you're like. And that's when you gotta stay in the work right there. It's not a one month thing. You gotta keep moving. Yeah. It's just like if you were preparing for. A marathon or some or I don't know. I'm having the word like battle come into my mind. You can't wait. It's a battle girl. That's true for the heat of love is battlefield. You can't wait till the moment of fuck. There's some battle or there's some really intense conflict or I'm really triggered or activated. Okay, now I need to focus on the regulation. Yep. If you can approach your self-regulation and connection and devotion to yourself on a more holistic approach. So really look at how am I incorporating that in my week? Where am I having pockets of time that are devoted to me? Can you keep that consistent? Because the more regulated you can make yourself on a day-to-day basis, then when those moments of activation happen, which they inevitably will in any area of your life, you are more, you're going to be much more equipped to be able to handle it better, and you're gonna become more regulated again faster. If we are not regulating at all, then when we are triggered, it's gonna be like insane. And it's really gonna take over your life and it's gonna be very hard to recover from. So Exactly. Trying to approach your, yeah. Approach it more holistically. Include that stuff into your days and your weeks, and it's gonna make a big difference. Oh my gosh, Mimi. That's so well said. I mean, what came up for me when you were saying that is thinking, you know, even on a spirituality level, you know, if you have like an emergency higher power or an emergency time, you tap in with the universe, but during your regular week or God, you know, it's like. It's gonna feel weird when you tap into God when you're only activated, and then when you're not, you're just going on about, you're like, it's the same thing. These things are daily practices, and so when you are activated it, it'll feel like, Ooh, I know what to do. Like I, I'm familiar with this. Exactly. Versus like, oh, hey, self. How you been in there? You know? No, we haven't talked in a minute.'cause I was dating so and so, but hey, he's gone now, so let's, let's check in with each other. Yeah, yeah, yeah. She's like, girl, you ain't talked to me in six months. So, no. Yeah. Like, what is going on? It's like, imagine, you know, you have, you have a romantic partner, you have a great connection. You, you guys are solid. You're a team, like it's you against the world. You have that because you are devoted to each other every day. You put in the effort in that relationship, you care for each other. You communicate, you listen. It's like do that with yourself as well. Exactly. That's, I love the way you just frame that.'cause whatever you put work into, you're gonna get the fruits of that labor. And if you don't put the work into yourself, you're gonna be running around like an anxiously attached crazy person like I did for many years until, you know, I couldn't do that anymore. But Mimi, thank you so much. This has. Such a beautiful conversation. Truly like I, I love when I have a guest on and I really get nuggets that I'm going to continue to take into my life. And what you said, feeling, God, I'm gonna take that with me. What you feel like when you're not with them. And I already know for my partner, but for my listeners, I really love that nugget. And then continuing to work on that relationship with yourself. So when you are activated, you can really say, oh, I know this. I can tap into this comfortably. So thank you so much. Are there any nuggets you wanna leave our listeners with before we let you go? Oh, well my pleasure and thank you for having me on. Yes, and I guess the last thing I'll say is that I just want people to feel hopeful and to know that you absolutely can change and you don't have to feel stuck and trapped. That vicious cycle of relationships that are really painful for you. And I understand how difficult that is, and I know when you're in it, you can feel like you're never gonna escape it and you feel really alone. But there is so much support and people out there who wanna help you and you absolutely can change. And it just, you know, it's not, you're never gonna feel completely ready to take that step. So, yes. You have to sort of just must up a bit of courage and take that one first step, whether it's reading that book or reaching out to someone for support, um, investing in yourself, listening to a podcast, like whatever it is, just take that first step and you'll very quickly realize like how possible it is to change. And when you, uh, develop your secure attachment, it honestly changes your entire life. It doesn't just change your relationships, it changes how you approach opportunities. Your friendships, your relationships with your family, like your whole life opens up, which is a really cool and exciting part. So get excited about it. Mimi, I would say. That just made me think about bringing you back over for part two because thinking about how it changes your life in other areas, it's like, ooh. Oh yeah. That's a great topic. So I'm gonna have to bring you back. But Mimi, thank you so much for this conversation. Like this was really beautiful. I love these subjects as you know. I appreciate you taking the time and we will definitely have you back on. Oh my pleasure. Thank you so much for having me. If you enjoyed today's episode, hit that subscribe button and leave a review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. 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