The Sweaty 10-Minute Conversation Every Leader Needs to Master

Most leaders don’t fail because they avoid hard work, they fail because they avoid hard conversations. In this episode of The Business Fix, Chrissy and Josh break down the “Sweaty Ten-Minute Conversation”, the short but uncomfortable discussion that can prevent massive culture problems, performance breakdowns, and legal headaches inside your business.

From separating behavior from identity to avoiding the “nice leader” trap, this episode is a masterclass in leadership communication, emotional regulation, accountability, and employee management. If you’ve ever delayed feedback, struggled with difficult employees, or worried about confrontation as a manager, this conversation will help you lead with clarity instead of anxiety.

You’ll learn:

• Why avoiding hard conversations creates bigger problems
• How to give corrective feedback without attacking someone personally
• The psychological mistake leaders make during accountability conversations
• How emotional regulation impacts team trust and performance
• Why “being nice” can actually damage workplace culture
• The framework for handling defensive employees professionally
• How documentation protects both leaders and employees
• Why direct communication builds stronger teams and healthier organizations

Whether you're a business owner, executive, HR leader, or frontline manager, this episode gives practical tools you can apply immediately to improve communication, accountability, and workplace culture.

If your business feels stuck because of unresolved tension, unclear expectations, or team frustration… this episode is for you.

We’ve heard it: “Nobody wants to work anymore.”

People do want to work. They just may not want to work for your company, your culture, or your leadership style.

That’s what we’ll be addressing at the COSE Big Summit on October 15 in Cleveland.

If you’re ready to stop blaming “the workforce” and start a team, join us.

Visit COSE.org for more information and tickets.

Your culture is not the poster in the lobby.

It is what your team does when you are not in the room.

That is where The Business Fix on the Road comes in.

We help leadership teams fix the people stuff with keynotes, culture consulting, and practical strategies that create clarity, accountability, and real results.

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Transcript

0:55

I'm to the point where I no longer fear the sweaty ten minute conversation. Really? Yeah. No, I don't want to say I thrive on them. Or okay, yes, but I don't. I'm like, okay, we just got to talk about this. And, uh, it is what it is. Yeah. Um, so they're not as sweaty for me anymore. That's good. But I still like calling them sweaty ten minute conversation because, yeah, I may not be the one sweating. No. Stay tuned. She's the CEO. He's the marketing and operations guy. If it's broken, you need the business fix. How is now that we're not summer quite yet? Another couple of days from the days where summer adjacent. We're summer adjacent. We're in the part of. We're in the part of Ohio Spring that feels like summer ish. And then there's a couple of those punches in the face that are like, no, no, no, no, no, you still need a sweater. Yes. Right. Like it's treating you well so far. It is, it is. We're enjoying our it's senior summer, so no one's getting ready to go to college. No one's climbed the walls yet. Nope. Not at all. We're preparing to go out of town for vacation. It's gonna be fun. So yeah. I'm excited. Was was was preparing for that. A ten minute sweaty conversation. Oh, that was more than a ten minute conversation because we're flying across an ocean for the first time ever as a family. So it's yeah, this, this has been like, did you specifically get seats in different areas of the airplane? Yes. We are not sitting with our children. In part because we now have an adult child and she can manage the junior high kid. So yes. Nice. Yes. Nice. Nice was that was telling her that the an awkward conversation. No, she was totally fine with it because I said, look, if you want to, we're going to go to Europe, but we're going to do it in a way where like, we don't have to pay for the airfare. We paid it with points. And so I'm like, your dad and I are going to sit up here and you're going to sit back here with Caleb. And she was like, you know what? That's okay, because you're taking me to Europe. Okay, I'm good with that. Yeah, I'm good with that. So why do we call the ten minute sweaty conversation or the sweaty ten minute conversation sweaty? Well, I think well, Gay Hendricks, who wrote the book The Big Leap, says behind every communication problem is a sweaty ten minute conversation that you don't want to have. Yeah. So that's it. I mean, it really is. And it's the one. And it's funny because before I was willing to have these conversations, yeah, I would persevere. Like just I would sit there and be like, okay, what am I going to say? How am I going to say this? And all I can think of is every time we say the sweaty ten minute conversation is I go to the episode of The Office. Mhm. It's one of the first couple of episodes where Michael has to fire someone. Yeah. And him and Jim roleplay because that's and it's funny, I love that scene so much. It's because that is the scene like every one of us has in our head. Yeah. Where? Michael. Just absolute disaster. Right. Michael just loses his mind. Yes. And that's what we all go to. Yeah. And we delay it for ten months. Ten days, ten years. It's like it's real. It's a ten minute conversation. But we delay for a really long time to get to it. So like, I want to put a definition to this that may soften that a little bit for sure. Let's define this as a high impact, low duration meeting designed to correct a specific behavior or boundary before it becomes a systemic failure. Oh, I like that. Um, I to me, the part that, I mean, I, as soon as we, I started working on this, I'm like, yes, let's make this sound as HR as possible. Um, it took me a while and it took me some time with AI to do this because, you know, that did not come out of my mouth. No, I know it didn't. That's a really good definition. But yeah, I mean, to me, it really does fit because it's it's to move from emotional to operational. Yeah. And that's really what you were trying to do with any conversation like this. So why is and this is something that like, this is why I love operations because it separates behavior from identity in many ways. Yeah. Um, why is separating identity from behavior like the most important psychological rule of this conversation? Yeah. So common mistake that most leaders make at least once in their lifetime. When leaders accidentally make the person feel like they are the problem instead of the behavior being the problem. Oh yeah. So that's why you've got to be able to separate identity from behavior. There is a huge difference between you miss the deadline and you're unreliable. Oh can you feel the difference? Yeah. Yeah. So I mean, one address is something very specific that can change. And the other attacks who you are. So. Oh. That hurts. Yeah it does. That's why I feel it. I feel attacked. Do you feel attacked? No, it's not good. But it's really important because it really does. The second that someone feels personally attacked, their brain stops hearing you. Because you have you've absolutely went to assault on their character and assault on who they are. And you're like, I don't understand why people get defensive around me. Well, did you say you missed a deadline or did you say you're unreliable? Well, I said they're unreliable. I'm like, no freaking way. Right? There's of course they're mad at you. They missed a deadline. Yes. And you have now associated that with their entire personal entire identity. So they're no longer thinking about any issue that you could have said to them. They're thinking about protecting themselves. And that's why people get defensive so fast. I don't understand why people get defensive. Did you did you talk about the problem or did you say that they were the problem? Oh, and what's really difficult about that is some people have a difficult time making that differentiation. they do, and especially on the fly. Yes, absolutely. And this is why when we talk about how to give feedback, we teach leaders to stay really grounded in facts and behaviors. And so this is really important in that conversation. You have to know what happened, what was the impact and what needs to change. Those three things. You're not picking assumptions, labels or emotional exaggeration. All right. I mean, I had to do this myself. I know when you are frustrated, it is easy to move from this behavior isn't working to this person just doesn't care. Yeah, right. But those are not the same thing. This isn't working to this person. Those are not the same things, right? So when we talk about resilient operating system, we talk about emotional regulation. And so a lot of being able to have these conversations is first regulating the emotions that you have in yourself. And when you if I walk into a conversation that's emotionally loaded, I need the other person to feel my emotional regulation. I don't need them to feel like I am high anxiety. I had to have this conversation with you. It's gonna be terrible. All right. So before I even start the conversation, I gotta ask myself these three things. Sweating before the person walks in, there's an indication that you are not ready. Okay. You are not ready. If you need to write things down, take some notes, get prepped, that's fine. But if you are like, it's one thing like, okay, this is going to be difficult conversation. My adrenaline's up a little bit, but if you were like hiding under your desk before this person comes in, you're not ready to have a conversation. Right. So before I even start the conversation, these are three things that I'm asking myself. AM I calm enough to be clear? Mhm. If this is an emotionally charged situation, I am still, like, ready to scream at someone. I'm not calm enough to have this conversation. Not the right time. It can wait at least five minutes, right? AM I trying to solve the problem? Or am I trying to release frustration because, ooh, that's a big one. I see it so many times. Yes. Because if this is about me releasing my frustration on you, that is not going to be helpful. No, it's about solving a problem. If I'm not going to call you in just to yell at you, that's that's not going to work. So. And then the last one is, am I trying to help this person improve? Or am I just trying to make myself feel better? Yeah. So asking, am I calm enough to be clear? AM I trying to solve the problem or release frustration? And am I trying to help this person improve or just make myself feel better? I asked those three questions of myself because those are also very different conversations. Yeah, right. Oh, I mean, just just the approach in those conversations is hugely different. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. I love those love those. Um, yeah. No, I got to ask an HR question on this because a lot of this is HR stuff. I mean, it's CEO stuff because as a CEO, you have to be able to have these conversations in your sleep. If you can't do it's not, it's it's not probably your calling yet. You need to get some professional development around how to have a conversation. You almost have professional help. You do. You do development and help both legally. HR piece. I mean, kind of one and the same there. Yeah. How does being nice or, you know, sometimes vague actually create more of a liability because we've all seen that. Yeah. The mistake of the nice leader. They think that avoiding the conversation is kindness. I'm going to spare their feelings. I don't want I don't want them to cry in my office. I don't want to deal with a crier or. Or worse yet, I don't want someone yelling at me. So I'm just going to be really nice. I'm just gonna be really nice, and I'm gonna hope that everything goes well and. And I'm gonna be nice to them. And that niceness is. It's not nice. It's avoidance. No one's accused me of that. No, I've been accused of being too nice. So not not for a while, but it has happened in the past. And I will say, and that's avoidance. Yeah. You're avoiding the difficult conversation. You're avoiding the fact that somebody may cry. You're avoiding the fact that someone may get defensive. Avoidance creates confusion. And if if the employee doesn't know where they stand, what was actually the issue, what they need to improve on, and then what those next steps are going to be when you get to the point that you are explosive, or you actually tell them ten weeks from the time that you should have told them, they feel blindsided. Yeah. And that's where you get resentment. That's where the legal problems start. That's where trust breaks for the rest of the individuals in your organization. I mean, I've seen leaders do this for months. They are they they hint about it. My dad was really good at telling someone they did a terrible job and them saying thank you for it. But no one, when they said thank you, they didn't realize that they needed to improve. Right? That was a problem. I know exactly, yeah, I know the type. Yeah. So because he would hint at it instead of telling them, I need you to do the thing. There was always confusion. All right. And then there's, there's the increase of frustration from anyone else on the team. Or you're talking about this issue to everyone else except the employee that needs to hear it. Uh, one of my favorites is when people will will tell the team about something. Hey guys, we all need to do a better job of this when it's really it's Betty and, and I've done that. I've sent the email to everyone, hey, we need to work on like making sure that our side conversations are appropriate. And then I've got someone who is so upset because I lumped them in with everybody else and I'm like, okay, I should have just had a direct conversation with this other person, had the sweaty ten minute conversation instead of the yeah, instead of the, the one email. Yeah. I mean, and the other thing around that. So you offend the other people because you like group everyone into the same bucket. Or what happens is you explode because you've got all of this built up resentment and that employee is absolutely shocked because no one was direct with them. Oh, right. Yeah, right. It builds and builds and builds and builds and builds and. Yeah. Nope. Yeah. And I think we talk about a lot of paperwork. We talk about documentation. And I think this is why documentation matters, not because HR loves paperwork, but because I mean, we do, but not because we love paperwork that we do this documentation. We, we absolutely are. Um, because documentation creates transparency, fairness and consistency. Yep. And so when you've documented these things and the employee understands what you have talked about, what needs to change and what's going to happen moving forward, you give them that timeline. It doesn't feel punitive anymore. It feels respectful. Look, we appreciate the work that you do here. We need to get you to this standard or this behavior is not going to doesn't align with our core values. This is what we need from you moving forward. You have to be clear in your messaging. And if you can do that, I think it enables you to be respectful in your communication and your employees can get better. Plus, it avoids the Parkinson's law of it's going to take as long as you give it. Exactly. If you say, I need this behavior to improve by two weeks from now. Yes. By a week from Friday, then. Great. You've got something to it. One of my favorites about the sweaty ten minute conversation. Yep. Well, one of my least favorites, I guess I would say is when you get the we will call call this the defensive flare up. And yes, when I'm talking about the flare up, I feel like this is referring to something that would use a tucks medicated pad because that's what it feels like from these people. Uh, you get the people that they get emotional about it. But but but I mean, every sentence starts with but or four buts. Um, hence the flare up. Mhm. Yep. How do you bring that, that conversation back to let's call this the objective zone. Yes. Instead of that, that defensive like emotionally charged piece. Yeah. So employee gets upset. So they're emotional. They're defensive. Or one that sneaks up on leaders is they are absolutely quiet and they say nothing. So you feel you have to you have to fill in the silence. I was about to say fill in the silence. It's deadly. Don't do that. So immediately you deal with those types of things emotional, defensive or quiet. The leader wants to backpedal because now they're feeling uncomfortable. You know what? Just sit in the fact that it's going to be uncomfortable. Acknowledge the fact that this is probably going to stink to some level, but you can do it because discomfort doesn't mean the conversation was wrong. And I think a lot of times leaders think like, because this person got uncomfortable, I did it wrong. No. Absolutely not. It means that the conversation mattered. Oh, yeah. So another needle point, like once again, we're like, we need to take some of these criticisms. Yes. And we need to have a needle point catalog of these. Yes. Discomfort doesn't mean the conversation was wrong. It usually means the conversation mattered. Yeah, yeah. So what really helps in these types of situations is to keep it grounded. So you're going to slow down the conversation instead of escalating it, right? If someone gets defensive, we do not match their emotion. We do not. We do not say, hold my beer. I'm going to raise it. No we don't. We. We stay calm. Bring the conversation back to the behavior, the impact, the expectation to move forward. There's a concept in dialectical behavioral therapy called broken record. It's where you continue to say the same thing over and over. And I know that there are times that it can cause escalation, but saying it over and over just reinforces what you need to what needs to happen. I mean, there are times where I will literally say to someone, I am not attacking you as a person. I am talking about a specific issue that we need to solve together. I hear you. I see your emotion. I'm not attacking you as a person. We are talking about an issue that we need to solve together. Yep. And just keep saying it. I've said something similar. Yes. I mean, another one is and I've said, I said this to my kids. I have said this to team members. This is not an assault on your character. This is about an issue that needs solved. I am not attacking your character. We are talking about an issue that we need to resolve. And I mean, again, resilient operating system. We talk about building those communication tools that are direct, fair, calm and curious. So we are just, you know, saying the hard thing clearly without being cruel and without abandoning the relationship. Love it. Right. Because there is an important distinction between can I care and can I hold them accountable? Because I think a lot of times leaders are like, I don't know if it's like, is it really caring if I show accountability or hold them accountable? Yes, it absolutely is, because you can care deeply about someone and still hold a boundary. The strongest leaders can do both things. It's funny, I heard someone talk the other day about raising kids. Yeah. And they said if you hold them accountable now, you will have a much easier time parenting later. You absolutely will. Yes. That's it's a problem that many people don't look at because they, they're like, are there for no, no, no. That is the most important time. Hold them accountable. Yes. Toddlers and preschool. And people are like, no, no, no, no, no, we need to I gonna get hate mail, but I don't believe in gentle parenting. No. Me neither. No. Me neither. You talk about criers for a minute. Yeah. Like how to handle the criers. I. Yes, because I'm very interested on your take on how you deal with this. I mean, it is. Yeah. I I'm sure you already know how I deal with it. Yes, I do. And it depends on the situation for me and how. I mean, if someone cries, it's okay because I know people are like, what happens if they cry? You know, that's it's a human response and that is perfectly fine. We are not going to panic when someone cries. We are not going to suddenly abandon the conversation. You know, go go go go go go go. You know what? They start to cry and you're like, I meant somewhere else. You have to stay grounded. Yes. Because tears don't automatically mean that harm was done. It may mean a couple of different things. It can mean that they care. It could mean that they're embarrassed, that they're overwhelmed or that they finally feel seen. So allow that to happen. Your job is not to rescue them from discomfort. Your job is to help them move through it productively. So there have been times where I have just I've slid over Kleenex. There have been times where I've just sat and waited. I, yeah, I can do either or. I've done both. There's been times where if it's absolutely emotional, I will stay in the room, but I will get up and I will walk to a different spot to give them a moment, and then I will come back. I don't usually look at people and say, are you done? I don't go that far. Don't go that far. Yeah. I just say, you know what, take a moment and just take a moment. I'll be here when you're ready. Yep. And that's okay, because you may be dealing with someone who wants to emotionally explode and have it be manipulation. Or you could be dealing with someone who's just going through a lot and you had no idea they couldn't. Okay. And I mean, look, having something pointed out like that can hurt. It can. It absolutely can. If they thought they were doing a really great job because you never gave them true feedback, and this is the first time you're giving them feedback. It sucks. It does. But it could be that first step forward too. Yes. Or it could be acknowledgement where you're going. Look, I think you're struggling here. Let's talk about it. And all of a sudden they realize, oh my gosh, you see that I'm struggling and I need to release some emotion before I can solve the problem. And I think part of it too, even whether you're dealing with a crier, you're dealing with somebody who can be, I mean, explosive or they're just not everybody's going to have emotions, which is totally okay Because I think we project the worst possible scenario. Yeah. Thank you. So as in like no emotions, we project those worst, those, those worst possible scenarios. But let's go back to the three CS of leadership. So we've got clarity, consistency and care. And this is, you know, it's how you have that sweaty ten minute conversation. And I think leaders avoid these conversations because they think the goal is to avoid tension. And it's not. The goal is to create clarity before confusion turns into resentment, because that sweaty ten minute conversation today is a whole lot healthier than ten months of frustration, gossip, and operational damage later. Oh yeah. Just do it. Yeah, just do it. Yeah, I am there's there's no other there's no other way to say that there isn't. You have to get it done earlier. I believe it was the last episode where I said the operational debt is like, you're going to pay, you're going to pay the you're going to hear the music now, or you're going to hear the music later. And when you hear it later, it's much, much louder. Yes. So, Josh, you always say like, let's just rip off the Band-Aid, maybe a bit callously. But yes, I mean, walk us through the actual operational mechanics. How do we start it? What data do we bring? How do we end in exactly ten minutes? Because my sweaty ten minute conversations, sometimes they're three and sometimes they're thirty, thirty, sometimes they're forty five and end up being a podcast. Like I, to me, there's, there's a couple of things like first off, preparation. This is like any speaking engagement or anything else. Now, depending on your comfort level with this, that depends on your level of preparation. For me, these are, I don't want to say these are easy conversations for me, but like, I don't need to go in with the a big idea with it. You've done a lot of them, right? It's don't script the whole meeting, but because scripting often leads to like robotic responses, that's gonna, they're gonna fail the moment they're going to fail. Like what happens when the person you're expecting them to cry and they just sit there staring at you, right? Right. Um, you can't like. And this is the thing. You cannot control other people. No, you can only control how you present the information to them. Yes. That's it. So to me, I always say go in with like, if you're not comfortable in this, go in with the first thing that you're gonna say. But I still love the Mike Tyson principle on this. Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face. And let me tell you, within the first forty five to 50s, you are going to get punched in the face. Hopefully. Hopefully not. Literally. No, I would hope not. But the plan is going to go out the window because you and I have both talked about this. I have brought people into my office where I'm like, oh, this is going to get ugly. They're a crier. This is going to be hysterics. They're going to jump out my window and they sit there looking at you like, oh, okay. And you're like, oh. And then we also get that the stoic person that comes in and loses their ever loving mind. Yes. And you have no idea how they're going to do that. That didn't go as planned. Correct. That was unexpected. Just assume the poop tornado. Uh. That's fair. I haven't brought the umbrella up. You prepare for the poop tornado. That's okay. Right. And the way you prepare for the poop tornado. Prepare for the poop tornado. God, that is a great way. It's a tongue twister. Instead of a rigid plan, have your data have your information handy. If you're having a difficult conversation, you have information and documentation to back it up. Yes. Have that stuff in front of you to refer to, because there's nothing worse than saying, well, you kind of don't do the the thing sort of. No, no, no. We've got five times here where you didn't do the thing. Yes. It's documented. It's there it is. If you are anchored in data. Yes. And you've got that data, it doesn't matter if it's a right hook. It doesn't matter if it's an uppercut. It doesn't matter if they assume the fetal position in the far end of the boxing ring. Yes. You are ready. You are. So I will say one thing. Yes, about some of those people that will say I don't have enough documentation. There is a limit. It's not a thesis. If you have a pattern, because they're like, I need thirty examples. No, three is good. No, I we have a pattern. I mean, we talk about, you know, once is not a pattern. Correct. Now, if there's an issue that you have to address because it was significant against your core values, it doesn't matter. You've got to address it. You've got to address it now. But when people are like, you know what, I don't know that I have enough information about this person being chronically late. How many times have they been chronically late? I don't really know, but they've only been on time three times in the last three years. You have way more than enough data. Stop procrastinating and stop avoiding your sweaty ten minute conversation. Don't use the data as a as a reason to not do it. Yes. Yeah. I've seen a lot of that to me to, to, to, to look at your first fifteen seconds. The first words that come out of your mouth, if you're not good with this, rehearse that. Yes, like have that there those first words because those are gonna that is what's going to set the tone. Mhm. Um, one hundred percent. The thing that I like the no fluff opening. Yeah. This is your first and we're going to lay this out in terms of time. Zero to two minutes is the no fluff opening directness is kindness. Directness only works because the relationship you've built with people. Yeah. If you have not been direct with them all along, this is going to be tougher. Yeah. If you've been direct with them from day one, you're in good shape. Um, if they know that you care about their success, the sting of any correction is so much easier to take. Absolutely. Because they realize you're not saying this. It's tough in so many cases. I have had bosses bring me in and I thought, this is malicious. Mhm. Whereas if they're like, hey, I really need you to do this. It's a completely different, Completely different conversation. Yeah. Um, the other, the mistake that happens so often is don't start with small talk. Uh, no weather? No. How was your weekend? No. Start right away. Right. Appreciate you being here. This is going to probably be an uncomfortable conversation for both of us, but we're going to work through it. Here we go. Correct. Um, and a great way, something that someone showed to me years ago. It's not how I prefer to start things. I'm having this meeting because I want you to be successful. If you start out that way. Yeah. Once again, you have set that tone. Now the next two to five minutes is got to be data. Mhm. If you have not done research, shut up. And you shouldn't be in this meeting anyways. No. Um, the what I always like to to say with this is you need to have the numbers behind it. And once again, if there's a pattern of things, if there's issues, you're not going to call people out, but you need four or five sources to tell you something. You can't get it from one source. No. Also, state the fact and shut up. Don't overexplain. No, because what's going to happen is you're going to be like, look, your performance hasn't been up to par and we need to fix this. Mhm. Mhm. Like that's it. Okay. That that even that was a little bit uncomfortable there because we're not used to silence. But once again, it's that thing like, hey, we need to fix this. There's no need to, there's. Okay. Right. How if they acknowledge, if they do that type of thing, but if they want to sit there in silence with it, be okay. Sitting there in silence for a second because so many people, your performance isn't up to par and we need to fix this. And then there's that awkward silence. But as soon as there's a but suddenly the conversation has flown out the window and you've got the the that hind hindquarter irritation again that we talked about, um, be okay with the moment of silence. The goal in this, the goal really in part two of this conversation, the two to five minutes that is it's to isolate the variable S p says x. The result was y. Help me understand the gap. Yeah. This is this is what we're solving for. If it's not a conversation, it could have been an email. Yes. Unless it's a termination or something to that effect. But really you have to be in there to say, look, this is X. This is why I need help in understanding the gap. Once again, we're not we don't want to feel people to feel attacked. No. Because now I've said the SOP says this. I'm not saying, you idiot. Why didn't you why didn't you do your job? Yes, I'm looking for a solution. I'm not looking to scream at someone. Now, the next five to eight minutes of this is. That's the operational debt. Um, when you skip step three in CRM, the accounting team loses their mind because now they have to spend two hours fixing it on a Friday starting at four o'clock. Um, that's a friction point we can't afford. Um, those are the things it moves it from the boss's mad. Yes. To the machine's breaking. Or you're the one throwing the wrench in the works. Exactly. We need to find out why that. That's where we have to go to. The clearest kind protocol with this is the ask for their commitment to fix. Once again, either the fix or if this is the sweaty ten minute exit conversation, the fix is get your stuff and get out of here. Um, that that is the fix. Yeah. To me, it's okay to script this too and have it someplace you can look at it. Now we've identified the gap. What's the one thing you're going to change today to ensure it doesn't happen again? Great. I'll document this. We'll check on it again Friday. You've got the two pieces to it. What's the solution? And when you alluded to both of those things, to what's the what's the solution? And when those are the things that all need to be brought together in that. And once again, this is we've got four basic steps of this conversation. They don't necessarily I mean, you look, if you add this up in the right way, this is I mean, a minute and a half. I mean, it can be really efficient. You can add in dialogue, you can say, hey, can you help? This is what I've said. Can you explain it to me so I can make sure that you understand? I think it's perfectly fine to do that in dialogue too. And that's especially if you're a crappy explainer of the things, and especially too when you're in the evidence space of this, when you say X is the result we were looking for Y, where's the gap? That's their chance to say look. And once again, this is where you have to go into some of these sweaty ten minute conversations to learn. Yes. Not to, unless there's a corrective action here. And once again, I've been in these conversations where I'm like, dude, why are you doing this? And they're like, oh, I do this because of this. Yeah. Oh, well, we've learned something here that we can work on. Yeah. And once again, you have to make sure this is done. Like you can't go outside of SOPs. We need to establish something with this. But you can improve out of this. Yeah. I think a common mistake that leaders, first time managers will also make is that they think that the sweaty ten minute conversation is only used for corrective action. It is not. It's not. It is. It is constant dialogue. Correct. It can be any type of conversation that might have any chance of an emotional impact or someone misunderstanding. So I think I make the argument that every conversation has the potential to be a sweaty ten minute conversation. So if you normalize it, you're a lot less likely to freak out when you actually have to have a real one. This, this one hundred percent goes back to that, the trust that I talked about. If they feel like you have their best interest in mind, if they feel like you are trying to make them better. Then once again, these conversations are so much easier because it doesn't feel like an attack. Exactly. And if you model how to have a good, sweaty ten minute conversation, I mean, newsflash, some of your people may want to have one with you too. They may want to give you feedback as well, and I hope they do. I do too. Um, one of my favorite things to talk about is because I still remember a CEO sitting me down and saying, look, I'm going to give you the shit sandwich here. Just the look on your face. And I'm like, why? Like, dude, something got screwed up. We know it got screwed up. It's funny. It was two other people that really screwed it up, but they blamed me. So I was in the meeting also, and the CEO just talked the whole time. And he, he told us the, the, the good, the bad and then the good. And this once again, you know, I've quoted Spy game, the movie a few times in this, um, there was someone that, uh, uh, there was a phone call that came in to Robert Redford and his character in this, and, uh, it was kind of funny. It was that first. Hey, we really appreciate what you've been doing. And he laughs. And they said, why did you laugh? And he goes, that's what my coach told me right before I was about to get benched. Uh huh. And that's what it is. I mean, like, you're not, you're the employee. Like when the employee walks in and you give them the shit sandwich, they're not like, mm, bread. No, that's not what they're not excited. That's not what they're tasting. No. Like, what's your take on it? So I think the sandwich method trained an entire generation of employees to distrust any type of compliment. I agree because, I mean, I was in college and I was learning how to give this type of corrective action. Like we trained on it in college. We wrote essays that were specifically and business letters. I remember in business school, it was like, this is what you have to deliver and you're going to follow. It was I mean, it didn't say the shit sandwich, but I mean, it literally was praise. Negative praise. I mean, when you do that, I mean, pray should be clean. Correction should be clear. And when you blend them together, people stop believing either one. So you've it's one thing to say appreciation. You know, I appreciate the work that you do. Here's some things that we need to work on. That's fine. But you don't talk about how I you know, I'm really glad you're here in this moment. You're probably not. So don't lie to people. If I put two pieces of bread and some poop in a blender, do you want it? No. No. And this stupid method. I mean, it protects the leader from discomfort more than it helps the employee. You are confusing people. Employees shouldn't have to decode whether you're genuinely appreciating them or you're setting them up for criticism. I mean, we talk this is I mean, you talk about that framework in Dearman give fast, where you're validating, but validating does not mean that you are saying everything is perfect. And then here's this little thing that we're really not going to address because it makes me uncomfortable. You're talking about all the things. Yeah. It's frustration. Sorry. You're not going out for a sandwich tonight. No, no. I mean, if we are going to correct something, let's directly talk about the issue. I do not want you leaving my office thinking I think everything's great. No it's not. If I if, like, if we're having a hard conversation. I want to make sure that you understand what the issue is. And I understand what the issue is, and we know how to resolve it together. Yeah. Yeah. No, I wholeheartedly agree. What happens when the boss is the one getting the sweaty, getting the getting the sweat? Oh, I think this is really one of the healthiest signs of culture. I do too. It's so funny. I mean, some people are like, oh my, my employee was like, really giving me the business on something. Yeah. They should. That's wonderful. They should. Yeah. I mean, I think employees need to understand, you know, leading upward is not emotional unloading. It's really respectful clarity and a good way. If you're an employee and you're trying to figure out how do I tell my boss I need something or I need them to do something, I think a good upward conversation kind of sounds like, you know, I want to share something that's making it harder for me to succeed. That's it. You don't say like you're a terrible leader. No. Hey, jerk. That's not what you do. You just. You share. I want to share something that's making it harder for me to succeed. I, I want, like, I always get suspect if someone's not willing to say something difficult to me. Yeah. Um, I'm always like, um. I'm off the mark here. Yeah. I really am. Well, and yeah, if leaders, if no one is willing to challenge you, your culture is probably more fearful than healthy. We didn't want to bother you with this issue really, or we didn't want to tell you. No, that's a problem. That's a big problem. Yeah. How do you reset after after the the ugly conversation? How do you reset after that? Do you like because I've seen some people like I still remember this. Oh gosh. Um, I worked someplace. I just got Basically screamed at for some results of something, and then my desk was closed. So we were in a conference room. My desk was close to their desk and they're like, hey, we still on for dinner Saturday? Like we did you look at them? Did you were their four letter words. I'm like, I'm like, this is awkward for sure because a bunch of us would always go out, put glass in it. But yeah, there was five or six of us that would go out and they're like, you're still going for dinner on Saturday? And I'm like, here's my middle finger, right? I'm kind of like, well, this is this sucks. So what's your, what's your reset? I'm assuming that's not, it's not a slap on the ass and go get em, killer. No emotional whiplash confuses people. I mean, I think it does you the healthiest thing you can do is I mean, you normalize the relationship so you're not punishing the person emotionally afterwards, afterward, but you don't overcompensate either, because I hate it when people are like, hey, everything okay? And it's like, no, they should let them be mad, let them be upset or I mean, like a. The conversation should feel like we address the issue. We have a plan and we're going to move forward. It should not feel like this didn't ever happen. We're going to pretend like it never happened. No, no. You had an awkward conversation. No. If the employee handled the feedback professionally, you acknowledge that you're going to reinforce the maturity that that person has, not the mistake that they made because, you know, direct conversation should create clarity, not lingering awkwardness. And when you act like everything's fine after you just chewed somebody out, like I just, that's psychotic. That's not a healthy work environment. It's just you can't or become, you become overly cheerful or you become overly apologetic. I hear it all the time. I had to yell at everyone, or I had to yell at this person, and now I'm gonna give them cupcakes. No, I was just gonna say pizza. But yeah, I see it all the time. To me, a couple of key takeaways for the day. One issue, one issue at a time. Do not bring the laundry list to a sweaty conversation. Pick one behavior, fix it and move on. Yeah, this is not the ninety five theses. We're not nailing it to a door. Um, say it cleanly. Clear feedback builds trust factor faster than soften feedback ever will be clear because they know what the hell you're saying. Exactly. If you need to practice your openly opening line, you're opening 30s out loud. If you can get past the opener, the rest becomes much easier. Agreed. Normalize the sweat. So hard conversations are not a sign that your culture is broken. They're a sign that the culture is functioning. Yeah, I totally agree. Um, look at your team. Like audit the niceness debt. Um, who are you currently frustrated with? Is that frustration a sign that you need that sweaty ten minute conversation? Because in many cases, get it out. Yeah. And you're going to address this issue directly. You're going to define the next step, and you're not going to let awkwardness become new culture. I have one more actionable thing you can put in our notes. Okay. Extra deodorant. Yes. That's fine. Make sure you have Kleenex. And I will say, and this isn't in our notes either, but it's something that we talk about all the time. If you are not good at this, get coaching around it one hundred percent. You need. This is probably one of the things that we do not professionally develop enough. Managers need to understand how to have these conversations with their people. Business owners need to be able to have these conversations with their managers. And as you level up in your organization, it is a leveling up of the ten minute conversation one hundred percent. Uh, should these conversations ever happen via Slack or email, be brave enough to be the person your team needs. We're not going to hide. No, don't shrink the same way. I feel the same way. And I mean, look, if you've got remote employees, you still need to talk to them directly. Yeah. I mean, they need to see that you're looking at them. They need to see that you're engaged and they need to see that you're receptive. Absolutely. Well, when someone starts crying. Yeah. What do you do? I pass the Kleenex. I take a deep breath. We do not rescue from discomfort. We just. Because it's there. Yeah. You just. Okay, I'll just wait now. I usually try and set them out ahead of time if I think it's going to go. Generally have them on my like there. It's there over there. That preparation stage that I talked about. Yeah, I have Kleenex. And then I also have like a sand tray so that if it's hard conversation and somebody doesn't want to look at me, I give them permission to walk through the sand tray. It's like, I'm actually a therapist. I'm not. But I have those tools. I've learned they're helpful. All right. Josh, can you have a sweaty conversation with a client who's breaking your process? Hell yes we are. It's so funny. I had to do it in the studio a few weeks ago. Um, someone came in and they're like, hey, we're going to do. I said, no, no. I said, look, this is the process. This is how we do this. This is how we're going to ensure that we are going to deliver those results that you want. This is the process that you signed up for. If you want to do something else, that's fine. You're probably not going to do it here. Um, we, we've done this. We're the experts with it. I'm assuming you've had that same conversation. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. You have to especially I mean, if they're not following the things that are going to probably get them sued. Yeah. And to me, the other thing that I see with it is too, is it's, it's that it's the, I don't want to say it's the client that wants the discount, but the one that's like, hey, could you guys do this? And could you guys do this? And could you guys also do it this way? It's like, no, because that like, suddenly you've got someone that's paying one thousand dollars for four thousand dollars worth of work. Well, exactly. We have one. I just had this conversation. It was around billing specifically where they said, you know, we think we have all these entities that are under this model. We'd like you to break all of the bills up. And I said, if we break all the bills up, those are separate contracts and you're going to pay more because we cannot accommodate. That's the one accommodation we will not make for your model. And they went, oh, so it'll be more expensive if you do it this way. I said, yes, oh never mind. Pretty easy. We understand. Yeah, yeah. Costs more to do that. Great. We're out. No, we like the way you're doing it right now. I figured you did. Works fine. Works fine. That being said, we've got. I mean, we've got some more interesting conversations coming up. The next one, as I dive deep into the folder, here is how you should stop babysitting people. Yeah. You stop moving from the hero culture once again, tear the cape off to process culture. No one needs to be hero. Everyone can do really, really well. Do us a favor. Business podcast dot com. As always, take care of yourself. If you can't take care of someone else too. We will see you very, very soon.