Sales as Service

Nobody’s Born a Closer: Why Sales Is a Skill and Not a Superpower with Joshua Schulman

• Tamara Smith • Season 1 • Episode 19

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Too many founders hold back from selling because they think they’re just not cut out for it. But today’s guest, Joshua Schulman, is here to challenge that belief. 

As a communication coach with a background in public speaking, acting, and even poker, Joshua helps entrepreneurs ditch the “natural salesperson” myth and replace it with real, repeatable skill.

In this episode, we dig into why performance, not personality, drives sales confidence. Whether you're leading discovery calls, pitching investors, or just trying to get through outreach without freezing, Joshua shares practical ways to rehearse your way to clarity—and even enjoy the process.

Here’s what we cover:

  • Why being “bad at sales” is just a lack of practice—not a fixed identity
  • How to gamify key moments in your sales process to reduce pressure
  • What acting, chess, and poker teach us about handling objections and staying present
  • The Sales Process Flow method that helps founders ditch guesswork
  • One challenge you can take this week to build communication muscle memory

Sales as Service Challenge — Start Now!

Pick one moment in your sales process—and rehearse it.

That’s it. Just one.

It could be:
 — How you open a discovery call
 — The way you introduce your offer
 — Or how you handle a common objection

Write it down. Say it out loud. Try it a few different ways. Play with tone, pacing, and delivery.

The goal isn’t to memorize—it’s to practice being present, so you feel more confident and less reactive in the moment.

Links & Resources:

Have an episode idea? DM me on LinkedIn and let me know!

—
Tam Smith is a Sales Growth Strategist and founder of ST49 Sales Marketing, where she helps female founders and agency owners ditch feast-or-famine cycles with sales systems that actually feel good to use.

With 15+ years in sales leadership, Tam’s work focuses on building genuine relationships, crafting smart outreach strategies, and creating consistent client pipelines—no pressure tactics required.

When she’s not helping clients build reliable sales systems, you’ll likely find her rock climbing or mapping out her next adventure with her Supermutt, Ila, in Durham, NC.

SPEAKER_03:

But if you think of just a born salesperson, we're missing something there. Because then we're focusing a lot on personality. We're focusing on other kinds of elements of being affable, this likability quality, as opposed to, can we do it, do it again, and do it again and again. If we can replicate that, as I say, that's sustainable. I don't want in sales, you don't get a pat on the back for a presentation. It's not like other kinds of toasts or speeches. You either get the deal or you don't.

SPEAKER_02:

Welcome to Sales as Service, a podcast designed to help you change your mind about sales. Literally. I'm going to help you change the way you think about selling. I'm Tam Smith, your host, sales bestie, and pitch partner next door. You're tired of bros with biceps telling you how to crush a million dollars in your sleep or battling imposter syndrome on your own, you've come to the right place. All you need to do is listen, then take action. No gym membership required. Let's get started. Quick question for you. How many new business inquiries did you generate in the last 30 days? How many were actually sales qualified? And how many of those converted into paying clients? If your results are inconsistent, or hey, maybe you don't even know how to answer that, we need to talk. That's why I created the five-minute sales audit. In just five minutes, you'll walk through a simple set of questions about your sales process. And within three business days, I'll send you a personalized video audit and a detailed PDF checklist. You'll see what's working, where the gaps are, and one low-lift action you can take right now to improve lead generation and client acquisition. It's quick, it's actionable, and it'll give you clarity on what to fix next. Book your audit today at studio349.com backslash sales dash audit. All right, let's get into today's episode. Welcome back to Sales a Service. I'm your host, Tam Smith, sales growth strategist and founder of Studio 349 Sales Marketing. And I'm going to say something right now that I know some folks listening are going to push back on. I don't believe there's any such thing as a sales expert. Sure, there are plenty of people who've had success in sales, but when you really look under the hood, it's not some magical talent. It's the result of lots and lots of practice. And I've lost count now of how many times I've heard someone say, I'm just not good at sales. Or worse, Tam, I'm just not wired that way. Sales is a skill. And just like anything else, it can be learned and with the right support, even enjoyed. Today, I'm joined by Joshua Shulman, founder of Shulman Communications Interactive. He's a coach, trainer, and speaker with one of the most unique toolkits I've come across, blending sales, public speaking, acting, poker, and chess to help his clients communicate with clarity and confidence under pressure. He's a frequent presentation coach for contestants on Shark Tank and has trained hundreds of startups and executive leadership over the years. So whether you're pitching investors, presenting on stage, or just trying not to panic in your next discovery call, Joshua's work proves that you don't have to be a natural to succeed. You just need a few key moves and the willingness to practice. Let's dig in. Joshua, welcome to Sales as Service.

SPEAKER_03:

Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, thanks for being here. In your words, who do you help and how do you serve?

SPEAKER_03:

I like to think I help everybody. I'm in a unique circumstance where my market is a very broad spectrum of, shall we say, humans, because everybody at one point or another talks, but at a certain point, we're have more responsibility to speak. And so even now, I think with AI and all the technologies, it's becoming more important. It's almost become like a currency to be able to communicate effectively. So I work with children, teens, young adults, people coming right out of college, whether they're interviewing skills or getting that new job, of course, starting to give presentations for the first time to seasoned vets and presentations and even TED talkers and celebrities and all kinds of peeps to my oldest student who is 90 years old for chess, which is great. And he always says, Don't quit, Joshua, don't quit. He said, You can do this at my age. And I said, I love that idea, right? My youngest student, by the way, is four. So I with chess as well. And my chess classes for children are designed as communication classes. So those games we go, Oh my gosh, I didn't see that. And in speech, we say, I didn't mean to say that. It's the same part of the brain. So I think they all have that dynamic. So my target is really everybody and anybody. And I do groups and corporate programs, and I just love this stuff.

SPEAKER_02:

Let's start with the big myth. Why do so many people believe sales is something you're either born with or not? And why does that stick around, especially with founders and creatives?

SPEAKER_03:

And I don't like that. I don't think it's a natural ability. I don't think it's a talent. And I think it comes from this element of public speaking and communication first. I believe this is a skill that we can cultivate and develop. And that's why, if you go to my website, it says learn to pitch, present, and persuade. The idea that we can incorporate all those things. In fact, even Warren Buffett, I did a blog on this on LinkedIn where he talks about how his public speaking and sales training was his secret sauce. I have a third one. My trifecta is business English, having better command of the language. But if you think of just a born salesperson, we're missing something there. Because then we're focusing a lot on personality. We're focusing on other kinds of elements of being affable, this likability quality, as opposed to, can we do it, do it again, and do it again and again. If we can replicate that, as I say, that's sustainable. I don't want in sales, you don't get a pat on the back for a presentation. It's not like other kinds of toasts or speeches. You either get the deal or you don't. And same with people who are stakeholders, or, you know, I work a lot with engineers and IT folks who have to get people on board with a new process or a procedure. Things are moving very fast these days, particularly in tech. I work extensively in the tech space as well. So I can appreciate that. So when people are selling, and they also not selling what they love, and you really should sell something you love to do that you're good at. And if you're not, go find another product or service or maybe find your own.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, what's the first thing you tell someone that feels like sales averse, that thinks they're just not good at it?

SPEAKER_03:

Well, just like anything. I mean, if you ever played basketball, you're not good at it the first time. Golf, I love golf. I've been playing since I was eight. I'm not that great. There's 26 things I'm supposed to do before I hit the golf ball. And you know what? It's not a natural maneuver. So is speech or sales or presentation or structure in sales, how we organize, how we prospect initially. How do we meet and find possible clients who might want our product or services? How do we then deal with qualifying if they are the one who makes the decision? How many people are selling products and services to the person who has no responsibility for signing the check, right? To even your structure of a sales presentation, which is a different format than a traditional sales presentation, to understanding open and closed questions and to be able to navigate that and to deal with objections and resistance. These are skills. Now, when I break this down, and I don't mean to get so nerdy, but this is the element that we need to become really aware of. And you're not born with that ability to understand trust and need and want all these resistant points and what is the proper salve or retort that you would give in this sequence or this sequence. You know, in business and sales, I think there's six primary objections that people might get, let's say, and every product or service is different. And if you know what the answers are for your product or service, your top performer does, because if they're closing really well, they are making a hell of a living because they know exactly what to say when they say this, when they say that. You know how to respond.

SPEAKER_02:

You and I had some interesting conversation, like pre-recording. I'm fascinated with you know, you drawing everything from poker to chess. And, you know, very recently, just in my my own development, you know, I was sharing with you that I've always to this point in my career had thought of sales as a very linear process. And now looking at it, you know, uh as a framework, you know, from the perspective of, you know, like, you know, poker or chess, it has really, you know, made it, I feel like I now can can see the more of the field, you know, more of the like kind of above the process to really, you know, see the dynamics at play. From your perspective, what do those disciplines teach us about communication and sales?

SPEAKER_03:

Well, they're both very similar. They work a little different. Chess when you play, most people want to beat their dad in chess when they're kids. Okay. You don't make money playing chess, as you're Magnus Carlson. The rest of us are doing it for joy, for beating your friend. It's more ego, it's this, then, the other. You know, poker, you actually can win some money. And people equate it with luck. And I joke about how it's there's no luck, uh, there's probability, plausibility, and there's actuality. Luck is superstition, it's lazy math. But I like pattern and sequence. And even the courts have deemed poker a game of skill, not chance. So if I can approach it from that standpoint, I can understand how I can be better at it and be more consistent. And when I play regularly, I tend to be. Can't win every time. There are people who do crazy things when you play with them. In fact, people who play the game of poker in the first, second, maybe third, fourth time can win. Why? Because they do nonsensical things. They do things that just don't make sense to you. So you relieve and give them the pot. You let them have it, and they get a false sense of security and confidence that they got this. And then the fifth time they play, when they choose to play in a casino or in a big tournament, they lose right away. There are three essential elements that poker does give us M chess two. And that is that you can make decisions faster. You can problem solve better, and you can mitigate error and mistake. If you can do those, you're going to have less conflict in your life. Conversations work that way too, right? Teach children at seven. Every action has a reaction. If someone says this, you have an option as a communicator to be evocative and to make them think, or you can be provocative to make them angry or to push their button. So if you they say this and you say this and this and this and this, then suddenly that gets a full-blown argument, and that's another different battle. And it's all avoidable. The best, I love martial arts. I've studied all kinds of martial arts over the years, but the best martial art one can learn is Brazilian jujitsu. It's is one of my favorite ones, but the best one is verbal jujitsu. You should be able to spar and figure out a circumstance and then get yourself out of it quickly. Because unless you're talking to a reasonable, rational person, you're not going to have a very fruitful conversation. And in sales, it's a reasonable, rational person who can make a decision. That goes back to qualifying. Because if they're not qualified to make the decision, you just wasted all this time presenting.

SPEAKER_02:

You've worked with everyone from, like you said, teens to shark tank contestants. What have you noticed about how people handle sales under pressure?

SPEAKER_03:

Well, that's a thing, right? I want us to not just talk the talk, but walk the walk. There's a word I like to use, efficacy. It seems to be used mostly in pharmaceutical, but I think we should use it in business and sales. The meaning that you can do it and you say something and it actually has that effect that is positive or works. And I think that would be part of that in order to be more precise and concise when you're sharing and selling or presenting.

SPEAKER_02:

Nerves is a big part of it. Like what helps someone go from being you know nervous and anxious about it to actually being like calm and confident in a sales situation?

SPEAKER_03:

Well, I think confidence is I talk about this a lot actually, that it's competence. Confidence is not a sensation, it's not a feeling. It's something you can do and do again and again and again. And if you can replicate it, that is as is nature confidence. You know, over the years we've had other concepts that people throw out, fake it to you make it, act as if I don't believe those are sincere. They don't work. These days I love working with all ages, even teens. They Google everything you say. Go ahead. It's important. And that from that standpoint, I think that can help. But the nerves anxiety, we have this nonsense called the imposter syndrome, or where people feel there are fraud. I think it comes from a childhood micro trauma that you had when you didn't read the book for the book report and you read the cliff notes or the back of the book and you're trying to figure out how to BS it. If you're trying to figure out how to BS it, you're under a lot of stress. But what about later in life? You people do that too. But what if you do know what you're talking about? You do know what you're discussing. You should feel empowered that you know something they don't know. It's not arrogance, it's excitement. So that should mitigate nerves and stress and anxiety. But we don't. We carry these nonsense things in our heads. And I actually break this down in my programs because I want us to get rid of nerves and stress 100%. Now, can we totally listen? Mark Twain said there are two types of speakers in this world, those who get nervous and liars. We're all gonna get a little anxious. We want to perform and do the best we can, but we don't want to be nonsensical. So it's essential. And I'll give you just five things or six things. I call it an intake form. Know these specifically. I won't go into the great detail now, but who, what, when, where, why, how? Who are you speaking to? What are you covering? Make sure your topic is clear. When is it morning, afternoon, evening? It makes a difference. Where is it online or is it live in a workshop, seminar, courtroom, maybe conference room, but a classroom scenario? Who, what, when, where, why, why you're doing it? Why are you asked to do it? And how? Is it a microphone, a lapel mic, a lavalier? Right? Is it can I use my clicker for presentation? How long is the speech? All of these things, if I ask and get those answers, my gosh damn, I just eliminated 95% of the nerves. So a lot of the stems from fear, and that's a great acronym that's been known for years. What is it? False evidence appearing real.

SPEAKER_02:

What I'm hearing consistently, I think there's this perception from outside looking in when you look at the pros and people that you know we we see do do sales and you know, public speaking really, really well, is that it is just this, you know, it's just natural. They just they're they're born with it.

SPEAKER_03:

Well, it may seem effortless, but it's practice.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

And they do it and they do it a lot. I do a lot of meetings and podcasts and presentation. I teach all day long. I just did three classes, a group and two privates back to back before I just jumped on to you. I asked if I can bounce five minutes early because I knew we were going here, and I wanted to hit the restroom before I jumped on call with you. And so, by the nature of doing it day in and day out, you know, my bread and butter, yeah, I like to go do presentations and speak at events and such, but I want to teach all day, every day. And that hones and keeps me sharp too, because I constantly have to work on that to my myself to get better and better and to be more comfortable with what I'm doing and what I'm talking about. I'm rarely talk, or I teach over 200 modules of communication concepts. I'm rarely asked something completely outside my wheelhouse.

SPEAKER_02:

I appreciate you pointing out that even you, for as you know, many years in it and you're doing this at a professional level that you're still practicing, you're still getting in reps, you're still working, like there's always opportunity to get better and improve.

SPEAKER_03:

Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think one of the struggles is a lot of people today are learning and practicing online. Maybe they create a YouTube channel, maybe a YouTube video and this. And I get a lot of those as clients. I have a lot of YouTubers and they reach out to me and they say, Well, you watch my video. What'd you think? I said, What are you trying to achieve? And they said, Well, right now I'm just practicing, coach. He said, But you're practicing you, you got 14,000 followers. You know, you're you don't get a second chance to make a first impression. Right. So maybe we can build and practice on that, know your stuff solid, then your style, and then you don't have to have that silly thing where in 10 years and you're so successful, maybe it's cute to go back and look at how you did back in the day to now. But do you want that documentation? It's not going to be as effective for you. And right off the bat, people are gonna think you're not a pro. We want to be a pro. You know, I I talked about this recently, this element, like let's be our own Michael Jordan or Steph Curry. Let's let's be at the top of our game as just regular people doing our jobs as opposed to just athletes or celebrities, all these other folks. We appreciate us that their aspiration and what they did in their lives, but the most of us are not trying to achieve that level or want to or care. And if we do, I think sometimes that can be misguided. I have acting classes, I have more business people taking my acting classes, but actors themselves, when they take my course, I ask them, what do you want to achieve with this? What do you want to do with your skills as an actor? And sometimes they'll say, I want to be famous. And I'm straightforward. And I say, I don't think I'm the best teacher for you. I don't think that's a healthy aspiration. I don't mean to be, I'm not rude about it. I just I don't think being famous should be something you're focusing your life on. My dad gave me a book when I was a kid called What Makes Sammy Run by Bud Schulberg. I rank it as one of my top three books. I got a couple of them, Sun Tzu, The Art of War, maybe, and maybe another one, Meditations by Marcus Aurelius. You know, things that can really help you think and process. But anyway, my dad gave me that book at the time because I was an ambitious young man. And the whole thing is about a cautionary tale of just getting there, wanting to be successful or famous and stuff. And it's fascinating how and why he gave me that as a cautionary tale to focus on your success that has truth and meaning to you.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes, definitely. And I mean, kind of the same token, just in my sales process, I equate that to, you know, when folks hit fixated on a number, you know, the further, the further out, away it goes. Where if you focus on, you know, the client in front of you and how you can serve and create the highest quality experience, that number comes. When they get what they want, you get what you want.

SPEAKER_03:

Kind of by the same token, like, you know, the celebrity that's focusing on just getting famous versus the craft, you know, it's kind of the there's a it's kind of hard to detem because a lot of actors, casting directors might be hiring certain actors between one and the other because their insta following is bigger, or they have more of a social network. And those things I can appreciate. Look, it's all business, it's called show business for a reason. But then you're losing out on is that person the right for that role? Or are you really focusing on just the money grab? I talk about you want to find something perhaps to feed your soul, not just your wallet. Then the old axiom, and if you love what you do, you never work a day in your life. You know, there's truth to that. When people say you work too hard, I'm like, I really enjoy it. And this is not, I'm not bothering anybody. Why is that problematic? You know, my family and the people in my world are fine with it, and I make sure I get breaks. I'm gonna take two weeks off in a few weeks here for July 4th for the break. I take my vacations when most of my clients do. I get more vacation than most people do when they work in a job, but I also work six days a week.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, you love what you do. Like we you and I've had that same conversation when you to your point, when you enjoy what you do, you know, it's it it is it's not yeah, there's there's days where it can feel like work like anything else, but you know, it's it's you really it's part of that icky guy that we often discuss and people know about today, I k I G A I, the Japanese concept, which means reason for being, right?

SPEAKER_03:

Essentially four parts like a Venn diagram, Tam. You take something you love to do that you're very good at, does the world need it? And can you get paid for it? If you can converge that, that would be blissful in your choice and decision making. And we can do that. You know, it's not, it shouldn't be a luxury. I mean, we choose our jobs, and when people apply for a position, they think that looks great. I want to do that. And then when they interview, they've given it to them everything they want. And then what happens? Why do we get bored? Right? Why I think burnout is not tired or exhausted. I think it's boredom. You know, and they say, Oh man, I slept eight hours. I don't want to go to this job one more day. I don't want to see these people anymore. Okay, well, make those decisions and understand what they are, and then find the product or service that you feel would be great if you want to sell. I think everybody should learn how to sell. Because if you could sell, you will always eat. Because we always need fantastic salespeople in this world. Most people, it's not that they can't do it. It's like that Nike at just do it. It's so popular because people don't do it. It's not because they can't do it, it's because they won't do it and they know they should do it. And if we were to really focus on those things, so build in, learn that skill. People need that. I ask people all the time. Most of my clients in the first session, I ask them, Do you ever think about starting your own business? Yeah, yeah. I do. Okay. Well, you should prepare for this class that way, then one day maybe you take good notes and you could quit and you can be a consultant and you'll make five times what you make in salary. Don't wait till your 50s or 60s, God forbid, you're laid off. It's pretty hard. I have a lot of friends in my age group who are trying to find new jobs, and it can be quite a struggle. And quite frankly, they're very smart and extraordinary people who could be consultants and do very well for themselves and create their own schedule and structure. Even working online since COVID, my business is 10X. I had always had hybrid online and live, but when COVID hit, I just moved everybody online.

SPEAKER_02:

What is one small practice someone could try this week to strengthen their communication muscle?

SPEAKER_03:

Well, I like that it's a muscle. I actually do exercises daily. I have these little things. There's like 52 muscles in your in your face. I think there are things that you can do physically to make sure that you're at the top of your game as an instrument. I talk about what's called hens plus hydration, exercise, nutrition, sleep, meditation. I ran out of lacronym, so I call it plus with meditation. There are things that we can do that can help us so we can be at the best of our best. You know, I stand all day when I'm teaching, and I think it's much more effective. What do they say? Sitting is the new smoking. And so being aware of that can put you in great stead there, focusing on the nerves and anxiety so you can get rid of that. And then break down. And then my course, for instance, I even break down concepts like eye contact and gestures. Who we're looking at? What do we do with our hands when we're speaking? Are we looking to the left or to the right too much while we're talking and the person feels you don't know what you're speaking of? Or are we using notes too much? Are we using losing credibility? Are you losing authority because we have to refer to other pieces of paper? Or if we're doing PowerPoint presentations, are we just reading what's on the screen? Concepts like that, or extemporaneo speaking, meaning no notes, no pieces of paper, or how we implement humor so we can be more engaging. A lot of these are ideas and concepts that people can go and cultivate as a skill. But you got to learn it somewhere. You can't just watch a YouTube video, which is why I don't make YouTube videos. Because I don't believe you can learn public speaking by watching a video and getting just tips. I think when you take a class and a program and you get up each week and speak and you get feedback and you can recognize in like a computer, you update what is it called? Plug and play, you add, subtract, add, subtract, and before you know it, you're really on your way. So those are things that people can do and they should be more proactive to find out what the resources are that are available for them.

SPEAKER_02:

How do you practice? I mean, what what does your own practice and preparation method look like?

SPEAKER_03:

Well, I get this, I call it a luxury to do this all day, every day. I'm literally doing 10, 12 sessions a day. So each and every time, and I'm working with different age groups or different circumstances and different businesses, different sectors. So I make notes on things. I'm gonna work on this today. I'm gonna work on this element of storytelling. I talked to a client the other day. We were talking about instead of using example, use the word analogy. Because when you say, let me give you an analogy, people go, oh, great, storytelling. It's in a more effective word. How about getting rid of words such as amazing, honestly, literally, that people use all the time. Maybe there are other adjectives we might know. So I myself implement, plus I do vocal exercises every morning. I mean, I have vocal exercises as an actor we do that are different than the tongue twisters we did as kids. I'll give you one, just unique New York. If you say it five times fast, try it.

SPEAKER_00:

Unique, oh my gosh. I've got unique New Year. Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_03:

Unique New York, unique New York, unique New York, unique New York, unique New York. Now, elocution, enunciating more clearly, having better pronunciation, which is more accurate about how we're going to say certain words. We need to be uh go back and crack our books because English is a you know second language. I teach a lot of people with that, but native speakers struggle with those understandings about how we can use those tools in our toolbox and even metaphors and similes and onomatopia and malaprops, alliteration, anaphora, chiasmus. We have all these cool things called rhetorical devices. This is not about showing off or fancy words, but we got better words to color and encapsulate what we're trying to say. Let's use them in sales. You want them.

SPEAKER_02:

I heard that um words tell, stories sell.

SPEAKER_03:

Absolutely recently.

SPEAKER_02:

And I like that as far as my kind of focus for myself now is to be a better storyteller, to learn how to tell a better story.

SPEAKER_03:

But we have to earn the right to tell the story. That's the challenge. People start off right off the bat and you're like, oh, you're doing this? You're gonna tell me about you, we can okay. So here's a suggestion for your audience of something that you could do immediately that will help you be a better storyteller. And I call it your 25. Your 25 words. In your, you'll know them when you hear them. Make a list of 25 words in your orbit, in your world, your family, your friendships, your work, your hobbies, your faith, whatever your circle of life is, and think of those words. And then one of five things should come to your mind: a comment, a thought, a feeling, an opinion, or a memory. A comment, a thought, a feeling, opinion, or a memory. If you have those for those 25 words, and yes, you could build that to 50, 75, a thousand, you will always have something to say quickly, right? And you don't have to reinvent the wheel. If you ask me a certain question that I've said maybe a zillion times, I don't want to sound like I'm repeating myself, but you know, I'm working with folks in India and China. There's a billion people over there. They've never met me, they don't know me from Adam. I don't have to, if I came up with a way to express or say something, for instance, as an example, we have a metaphor within the Asian business community. The nail that sticks up often gets hammered down. But in North America, the nail that sticks up gets opportunity, advancement, promotion, recognition, reward. Now, that phrasing I've used countless times. It's probably been one of the most effective sales presentation metaphors that I've ever used. I actually have metric of that because it makes them understand that this is not about, you know, being an introvert or an extrovert. It's a cultural dynamic that they have to shift and change, right? Got to put on the cap and say, okay, when in Rome, do as the Romans and North America, we like that, right? Whether it's in politics, pop culture, people like that presentation value. And yes, maybe we can do it without arrogance. Okay, maybe we can do it without with more humility, but no one's gonna stand up for you more. And if you're an entrepreneur, you gotta get out there somehow and toot a horn. Let others do it for you. I mean, reviews are great, right? When they can do that for you. But nope, you gotta have that proactive effort to put yourself out there.

SPEAKER_02:

Now, I want you to hear a little bit more about your sales process flow method that you talk about. Can you share a little bit more about that?

SPEAKER_03:

So, okay, let's take an example. I have different people that I would work with in sales capacity. If I saw someone on Instagram, I can write them a note and I said, I saw your presentation. That was pretty cool. That's all I say. Then they reach back and they saw who I was, that I'm some coach or something for public speaking. They said, You got any tips? I said, Yeah, sure. In fact, let me give you a complimentary coaching session. I'm gonna give them a one-hour free class with immediate takeaways, all that concept, and I can bet my bottom dollar that they'll end up working with me. And that was someone that just came out of nowhere. But a lot of people reach out to me directly. That means I don't have to sell them on the concept or idea or persuade them that public speaking is an important skill to learn. By the way, sales too, people want to take my sales courses, but if you can't pitch and present, how are you gonna persuade? I don't want to put the cart before the horse. Right. Let's learn it properly. Right. So, in other formats, when people find me and they Google or certain apps that are on there, they can reach out to me. I have a four-minute and 26-second conversation with them on the phone. First of all, I've had an exchange by email or text. Yes, four minutes and 26 seconds. I try and keep it under five minutes from that conversation. They're excited, they want to do it. I do not want to be hired site unseen. I then from that moment will create, and if it's a company, I'll do a demo for a group of people or whatever the sequence is, or if it's one on one, depending on the context, I'll do that demo. Now, those one-hour demos are worthwhile because I get cancellations in my line of work and I do not have a 24-hour or a 48-hour cancellation policy. So I can just put those demos in. I do two a day, I do 10 a week, I close nine out of 10. I say that in humbly because the element of that is key because your average salesperson is closing three out of 10 presentations. I don't have the time to not be closing my deals. So if I had that conversation and then I had that one hour, I'm gonna close this deal. And at one point I might even say, from zero to 10, where are you that you might want to start this next week? If they say nine or 10, we're good to go. Let's find a slot. I'm open on two o'clock on Wednesday. I'm gonna pencil you, not obligate. Now, if they can make a decision right there, that's great. Let me know by EOD, end of day to day, check with your company, because I also teach them and how to navigate tuition reimbursement because companies pay for my programs. And most people don't even know that they have that allotment. So I have to sell them on that idea, but I don't want them to sell my program to them. In fact, I would like to talk to their HR training development because I want to make sure perhaps I can sell my programs to the company for workshops and seminars or two-day, you know, boot camps or whatever scenarios they may want. That's that's another whole ballgame. So you can see how this kind of can play out. And then and then they but typically they start, you know, but I've qualified it before. I even start my conversation. A couple things I gotta ask you. First off, this is something you want to do right now. We're not talking like, hey, Josh, this sounds great. You know what? I'll give you a call in uh six months. All right, if you're good, if we find what you're looking for and we can find it that fits your goals and budget, are you prepared to start next week? Boom. Remember, later on, that's never gonna be an objection. You can't go back to that. So once you deal with objections or resistance points, you identify them. We call it isolate and eliminate. That's part of my flow. And then from that, I know that they're never gonna come back with that concern. What about schedule? We talked about Wednesday, two o'clock, that worked for you? Oh, that's perfect. They'll never come back and say, I can't find a time that works. Also, because I don't have a cancellation policy, I'm the most flexible coach that that's out there because I know if you can't make it, I have another client who wants your slot to move that week, or I can put in a demo. And then what else might I ask? So that's it. And then also if it's a determination about money issues, which, you know, when we're selling, pricing is can always be a concern. I'm a professional coach. I don't want to devalue what I do, but I help and identify what is the distinction between value and affordability. Because if it's an issue of value, we can have that conversation real quick. Because we all know people who will spend a lot of money on a vacation or this, that, and the other, but they won't spend two pennies on themselves. Okay, well, you know what? If they're really sincere and serious about getting to another level, we can have that conversation about what's involved with that. By the way, I'm selling my programs, I fulfill my programs. So I'm not a salesperson. People ask me all the time who sells your programs? What company do you use? I use It and I sell my programs, and I'm the one fulfilling it as well. That's really key. And so, of course, then all of this, the renewals or the retention is very high, and I build strong, very important relationships. And that one hour is I'm giving an hour because I want to know who these people are and I want them to know who I am. There's a lot of my story, my personal story, all kinds of dynamics that are shared, which are teaching them how to do storytelling that are part of that that can help them make their decision. They know for a fact at the end whether they're going to want to do this or not. And I'll know if they don't, why?

SPEAKER_02:

Talk to me a little bit more about the money objection. I mean, that's the one I know, you know, a lot of founders and business owners struggle with. Like where, and you're talking about isolating and eliminating, where do you introduce that in the conversation? Or how do you?

SPEAKER_03:

Well, it's just you're a solution provider. You're trying to figure out how you could fix, and that's why I love chess and poker. Okay, I got a problem and a Rubik. Now I'm in a unique circumstance where I have a lot of clients who go in and they'll pay my proper rate because they can get properly covered by tuition reimbursement. But I got a single mom with three kids that I'm working with, and I wanted to find a way how I can navigate this for her. And so she wants to do long-term, and I was able to figure out maybe how I could take the long-term pricing, maybe work on a shorter program and break up the payment for her in that system. It's my business. I think I can do that. I try to avoid scenarios like that because I can't be chasing everybody around for payment. But that's something I'm willing to do. And what that did was solve the problem of how she could get proper training. I know if she has proper training, she's going to get that job she's interviewing for and she'll make five times and she'll be fine. And she can then go back and pay me a proper rate if she wants. I appreciate that. And so I'm willing to take a chance on people. I'm in the potential building business. Warren Buffett talks about that a lot. It's a very key thing. And so that's why I want to work with younger people, whether it's teens or young people right out of college who are struggling. Three out of what is it? There was just an article. There are three reasons why eight out of 10 people in Fortune magazine or young people are getting fired within the third first 30 days. They don't show initiative, they say. They're doing the bare minimum. Work ethic, they're not showing up on time or show up at all. And we're not talking about just like in retail or restaurants, we're talking about even in jobs where they have a salary, they just don't feel like coming that day. And then the last one, the third one is communication skills and lack thereof. And most people do because there's no proper training in public speaking. That speech class is a joke most people are taking in college. In fact, most college students I've had are taking a speech class and they want to take my class while they're taking it, because it's not sufficient for them. And also because they have to give speeches in front of 90 people and they're stressing out and they want to crush it. And so all of these things have help and build that confidence so we can do that. Because we have what's called the Dunning-Kruger effect. At a certain point in our life, we think we know everything. Usually when we're about 16 during our 20s, it drops down considerably. And so Malcolm Gladwell would he had a he wrote two great books on business, outliers and tipping point. He had a hypothesis that it takes 10 years or 10,000 hours to become an expert. Think about your 20s, right? So I tell people don't go, don't start your own business right out the gate. Go look under the hood, see how people do things, how you could do it better. Oh, you're gonna crush it later. Be patient, be patient.

SPEAKER_02:

Finally, for someone who hates the idea of selling, what is one mindset shift that can help them show up with more confidence?

SPEAKER_03:

Well, I think everybody wants to make a living, and you're gonna make a great living if you work in sales, and you'll make even better living if you're selling for yourself. I don't know what motivation people need. Now, by the way, I believe there's a distinction between motivation and inspiration. Inspiration is kind of a feeling, oh, those are great ideas or great tips, coach. Boom, boom, boom, and I'll apply it in the future. And I want to do that and do it, implement. Motivation is I got rent due at the end of the month. I got to get a better job or I need this, or the coach at halftime. We got to get the W. So when someone says they don't like something, they're not gonna go into sales. Most people in sales try it, are not very good. And that's why attrition and retention are so bad because they don't learn how to do it. Companies don't have time to teach you. And I'm gonna promise you something the top two performers in sales and an organization on a sales team do not feel like teaching you. They don't get paid for that. They don't care. There's not a team spirit on a sales team, and they are out there, they got their rhythm and their process. And so I don't have time for mentorship. And the company, look, sales managers, I often know this because I was a sales manager, sales trainer, sales top performer, producer, top performers are going to make more than their sales managers. People go into sales management oftentimes. Yes, they may get overrides, but oftentimes because they get a nice cushy salary and they get a nice cute office and they get all those glass trophies that are behind them. And they got a mortgage and three kids now, and that is what they want, as opposed to, hey, look at sales, as I mentioned, you don't get a pat on the back. You either close the deal or you don't. So it's a certain kind of personality that gravitates to it, right? That hunter. But now sales is hunter and gathering. It's everything. And so you have to be a competitive person. You should find that. Anybody can. I don't believe that you know it's only type A personalities that gravitate towards sales.

SPEAKER_02:

I'm of the attitude that that we're all in some version of sales, whether it's whether it says that in your job title or not.

SPEAKER_03:

Your job interview is a sales interview. Dating is interviewing is sales. I mean, what are we talking about, right? Almost everything we do, stakeholders has nothing to do with product or service. You're just trying to get the the boss to okay, that you can work on this project or or that we can take resources and put them over here. You have to get them to change their mind. So the notion of convincing and persuasion, those are very powerful concepts. I love that. I believe human beings are predictable. Circumstances are not, and human are humans are different people. But if we start to understand more about what makes people choose or make decisions, it can help us tremendously.

SPEAKER_01:

Let's jump into our fast five. Your I can't live without it software or app.

SPEAKER_03:

I use Excel a lot. I like it for projections. I also use it for my own as a CRM. I've had Salesforce.com, all kinds of ones like that, but I'm a small business. I really don't need to be paying paying those huge licensing fees. It's not necessary. I have a separate workstation where on there it's just my X, I have everything on there, but I use it only, and it's a stand-up session, an area where I go where I have a map and I go there and that's where all my lead generation is. And I'll see I may have 40, 50, 60 leads in a week. And I'm going through parsley, making sure I have a whole system in regards to my cells, LM, right, left message, a phone number. I just need what they're learning, whether it's chess or public speaking, poker, whatever it is. I have little acronyms. I create a legend system, the date, of course. I have what else on there, or what city they are. I need the EDT, PDT, CDT, because I'm on eight time zones. I want to know where they are in regards to that. And I have my notes section, and then I have the scheduling. And I can tell by looking at empty slots whether they've been scheduled for a demo or a meeting. Some some folks, so especially corporate stuff, some of that stuff I don't have to do full-on demos anymore. And I like that, but I still want to have my notes action. So for me, that's very helpful.

SPEAKER_02:

Best piece of advice you've ever received about sales and business development.

SPEAKER_03:

My grandpa, Irving. If you want advice, ask for money. If you want money, ask for advice.

SPEAKER_02:

That's good. That's good. Your morning routine must have.

SPEAKER_03:

Well, I work out every day. I do VR virtual reality boxing every day for 20 minutes, 25 minutes. I you got to get your heart rate going 20 minutes every day. Every other day, I do weights. I do a 25-minute hyperset, hitting every element of free weights and push-ups and pull-ups and stuff, just exactly what I need. I'm 57 years old. I don't need to get huge and swole, but I want to be able to carry groceries of this, that, and the other, and tie my shoes and not have any problems with all that. So my exercise routine, those kinds of things, and water, starting the day with water getting oxygen to the brain. And so you're ready to go. And I give myself plenty of time. I'm never rushed in the morning before my first class. And I run it like it's a studio. Places, places, let's do this. Five minutes, five minutes. I get myself in the zone just like it did when I was producing plays or acting in plays. It works. It works for me.

SPEAKER_02:

Your walk-on song, the one song that always pumps you up.

SPEAKER_03:

Well, I have 10 hours on a playlist of influential music that I have. Everything, each and every song has some sort of thing. But I probably go with Bill Conti's score of Rocky, going the distance, which is this it, if you remember the movie, the original movie, it's that sequence where he's going through his training, that kind of collage, right? The montage scenes. And that is three minutes and 26 seconds. And I listened to that, and I've been doing that since I was a young salesperson on the way to almost every sit, on the way to almost any presentation. And it always seems to end as I drive up and then I finish it. It's got a great rousing thing. Go check it out. You could Google it. Bill Conti, going the distance. It's from the rock from Rocky soundtrack. And that is my song. Now, after, if I get the deal, I listen to another song and it's Yankee Doodle. It's also from that, too, from that move from the same movie. And that's my exhalation. It's like, oh, I got the deal. But I only play that if I got it. And I've been doing this now for 30 years. Both of those songs. So good.

SPEAKER_02:

If you only had one hour each day for business growth, how would you spend it?

SPEAKER_03:

Reading. I read a lot and I don't get it, and I read mostly nonfiction. If a client can't make it, if I have an empty slot and it's last minute, I'm not even telling anybody that I'm free. I'm grabbing a book and I'm catching up on some reading and I love it. And I gotta read four or five times things. And so when I'm reading, I'm not reading like one day I'm gonna use this. I'm reading it because, oh shoot, you know, Tam and I were just talking about that. Where's my yellow highlighter? Let me highlight that and bring it up in coaching session. So to me, the value of a lot of business books, modern books, new books, old books, anything that has reference. Every executive CEO, I've asked them what their top five books are. And over years, I've gleaned my own library and I've got a few. I've got about 5,000 books all over this place. I've been immersed in that for years. In fact, there's a chair, you can't see it. It's this leather chair way over there. And that's only for reading and playing chess, actually. I don't watch TV in there. I don't do anything else except just reading. And I think if people were to make reading a lifestyle a big important part of their lives, it's gonna help them tremendously.

SPEAKER_02:

What are you reading right now?

SPEAKER_03:

Actually, my client had suggested this. It's called The Anxious Generation, how the great rewiring of childhood is causing an epidemic of mental illness. There's a show right now on Netflix called Adolescence. And this has been a very interesting thing about the notion of toxic masculinity in our youth and a lot of concerns about what's going on and and how they perceive and see themselves. I work with a lot of young people and even in young men and women too, who are right out the gate and trying to find where they are and what their ambitions are about. And and I believe they've gotten obsessed with their phones and and and not connecting with other people.

SPEAKER_02:

Definitely. Well, to that point, where can people connect with you online? Where can we find and connect with you online?

SPEAKER_03:

I would I would go find me on LinkedIn, connect with me on there. You could go to my website, www.getcoaching from sci.com. You can catch me on Insta, Threads, Blue Sky. I'm on Facebook, of course, my corporate and personal. If I know you personally, I'll connect with you. Facebook is primarily just friends, personal, and clients, but I have a public page on there as well. And they can catch me on X. I'm not crazy about that site anymore. It's gotten to be kind of a cesspool, frankly, from Twitter. But I have a business presence on there. Pretty much everything, but they can reach out to me on my website. There's a contact page and mention that they met me through this. And if I have availability, I'll schedule a complimentary coaching session. You'll have immediate takeaways and things you could actually use. If you're sincere and serious about coaching, perhaps I can help you. Otherwise, nice to meet you.

SPEAKER_02:

Thanks so much for being on. I just know for myself, just our the short time that we've known each other, I feel like I've already just absorbed so much and am a much stronger presenter and communicator as a result of it. So thank you again for being here.

SPEAKER_03:

Thank you very much for having me.

SPEAKER_02:

Thanks again to my guest, Joshua Shulman. My biggest takeaway from this conversation is to let go of the idea that you need to be a sales natural, whatever that is. None of us came out of the gate great at this. Like anything else in your business, sales is a skill and it gets better with practice, which brings me to this week's sales as service challenge. Pick one moment in your sales process, just one, and rehearse it. It could be how you open and lead a discovery call, or maybe the way you describe your core offer when asked about your services, or how you handle a common objection. Write it down, say it out loud, try it a few different ways. Play with the tone, pacing, and clarity. And the goal here isn't to memorize, it's to practice being present so you feel more responsive and less reactive in the moment. Because confidence doesn't come from a perfect pitch. It comes from practice and building that muscle memory. Before you go, be sure to check out the show notes for all the resources mentioned, where to find and connect with Joshua on LinkedIn. And if this episode gave you something to think about, be sure to send it to a fellow founder or sales stribe business owner who might need to hear it too. As always, thanks for listening. And remember, sales is an act of service. It's about what you give, not what you get. And when you serve well, the ROI always follows. See you next week. You've just listened to the Sales as Service podcast, the podcast to help you shift your mindset around selling. If you liked what you heard, be sure to hit subscribe and share it with a friend because we're all about more sales awesome and less sales awkward. See you next episode.