being both: the therapist and the human with Lauren Larkin

in this episode of all our parts, i sit down with lauren larkin — a licensed therapist and nyc-based content creator who’s known for showing up online with honesty, humor, and heart.

we talk about:

✨ the tension between authenticity and professionalism in the therapy world

✨ navigating mental health struggles while supporting others

✨ what it’s like to share personal experiences publicly — and what stays private

✨ why therapists deserve space to be whole, messy humans too

this one’s for the therapists, the creators, and anyone trying to stay real in a world that loves a polished highlight reel.

Transcript

Been sitting on a gem of an episode that I am so excited to release.   📍 .      

 Have you ever come across?

someone's content and thought, wow, I want to be them when I grow up. That's how I felt when I came across LEL therapy in early 20, 23 on take stock. Her content seemed authentic and seem to resonate with me, not only as a budding therapist, but as an individual. Her video for new therapist and modeling a relationship that shows up for them every week and being the container for their authentic selves really struck me and is one I often go back to in my imposter syndrome starts to rear its ugly head. I had to muster up every ounce of courage to ask her to be my first guest. And I believe every star was aligned when she resounded in ecstatic. Yes. I am thrilled to share this episode with someone I get to now call a friend. Lauren Larkin. 

I hope you all enjoy   📍 

hello, everyone. Welcome back to All Our Parts. I am thrilled to have won my first guest and someone that I Love watching on TikTok. Love watching their journey on social media. I think she is a style icon. She is a New York City, licensed therapist with her own practice. I'm so excited to introduce Lauren thank you so much for joining the show today.

 Thank you so much for having me. I had no idea I was your first guest. I'm thrilled.  This is so exciting.  

Thrilled. I am honored. Thank you so much for taking the time out this morning to be with me.  

Also a style icon. You're sitting here in a gorgeous pink blazer. So I love it. And yeah, I'm so excited to talk therapy stuff, parts, what we learned from our clients, how our maybe style is similar or different.

I'm just ready to go. What do you want out 

today? So my first kind of exploration question was around how you chose to share your life on social media.

How you got the courage to put yourself out there as someone who's just starting this journey. And  I recognize when I overthink it, I'm like, Oh,  wash, toss, throw it away. How did you decide, okay, you know what, this is worth it to me, and this is valuable to me.  

To put myself out there, I yeah, that's a great question because  when I started my own personal mental health journey, I've been, like, struggling with my own mental health for a long time and just didn't have the language to understand, I think, what was going on for me internally. 

And then I went to treatment for an eating disorder, and that was where I realized that other people struggled with what I struggled with, too. And during the time that I went, I thought my life was over. I genuinely thought that I wasn't going to be able to get another job. That I was going to have to start all over that maybe like I was avoiding my friends while I was there.

You can really talk to people anyway, but I don't even think I gave like a farewell to some of my best friends. Like I was in this mindset that like it was going to be before treatment. And after treatment, and I was going to have to start all over and prepare.  And then I came out and everything was okay.

It was very dramatic. But it does feel like that sometimes. And I think I eventually shared a little bit about my story on my personal Instagram which has always been private. Okay. Like spring, I can't like my treatment journey was like five months or six months, like with the whole step down process and everything.

And then I came back to New York and I decided to share. My story \ So during my kind of step down process, I was figuring out what I was going to do with my life. Like I was going to shift gears and do something different. And I think it was like back in New York, I got the random courage to share my story on social media.

I really did not put a ton of thought into it per our overthinking. And I think I just wanted to write something and share something about what I've been through.  And especially about the perspective of not being able to see someone's mental health struggle because  I had fluctuated in weight and I never felt like I looked like I had an eating disorder.

I'm a very like small framed person. So I think that people would just never have been able to tell and. My own judgment of myself, I really thought that I didn't deserve to be in treatment because I didn't look like I had an eating disorder, which now I know is total bullshit. You could be anywhere on the BMI scale and struggle with these thoughts and behaviors.

So that was like the first time I wanted to share that with the world, my small world. So my personal Instagram, I shared it and I was like really overwhelmed with how people resonated with what I was.  And a lot of people did say, I thought your life was perfect. I thought never struggled.

You seem so happy. You seem so right. Confident or whatever other words.  insert here. And I think it was my first time of being like, Oh, there's some value here to showing that we all struggle or that we struggle with different things. And I didn't start really sharing a ton throughout my therapeutic journey because they teach you in school, right?

Disclosure is.  Yes. Delicate, which I still agree with, right? Disclosure is only for the client. It's not for you, it should not be self serving, but I was starting to do some blogs and things and like I had a small website throughout the entire time because as an LMHC and prior to a MHCLP and like intern, there's no laws.

In the state of New York, at least against marketing yourself or having stuff out there. So I had a website and a psychology today and occasionally I would like blog or share something about my personal story. So I remember a supervisor at the time saying to me, if you have clients with an eating disorder or struggling with that stuff and they find out in the world that you've been open about it.

That actually might cause an additional rupture. Cause they might say, why didn't you ever tell me  briefly? Like he was like, it could go either way  to disclose. And they could be like, This is about me. Like, why are you talking about you or they could be offended out there if you don't tell them, Hey just so you know, so that's how I disclose now with, I don't really have a lot of new clients anymore, but if I did, I would say, just so you know, I am out there and now with social media, I am out there.

I talk about my personal stuff all the time. If you want to block me, please feel free.  I'm totally good with that. And I just want you to know, because I talk about it openly, if you didn't hear it from me, I would feel strange about that. But I have had, an eating disorder. I've struggled with this book firsthand.

So I want you to know that I do relate on a personal level. And usually I'll just leave it at that.  But I didn't start really sharing on social media in a public forum until February of this year, because  I had my license for  A little less than a year at that point. So I felt pretty  not confident, but I felt okay, I have a license.

It's not going to be taken away from me.  I think I know generally, how I follow all of the ethical guidelines. I possibly can with all the information kind of being a little bit confusing and stressful out there. I was like, I think I can do this in a way that feels authentic to me.  I like doing it because I used to do some PR and marketing stuff and I'm like, I've had a million different jobs.

I feel like I've had a million different, like all these different like side hustles throughout my life. So I was like, you know what? This will be more fun to do this for me.  else. And it was the time that I was starting my practice. So I was like, it's marketing. It's fine.  If I said, I set a barometer for myself that if I get 10 likes on something, I'm happy.

So I try to remind myself now I'm like 10 likes, girl, you got this. It was just something totally tanks. And I was like, I'm just going to start doing this until it's. Not fun for me anymore and see what happens and it's been fun. So that's how I decided to share more of my story. I do notice what people resonate with or don't resonate with and it sounds like from feedback that I have gotten, it's helpful to some people.

So I'm just trying to have fun out there and help people that I can while also staying in my lane of saying I'm not your therapist, but here's what you might want to take to your therapist and trying to be delicate with that process too. That was a long winded answer to your question. 

Thank you so much for sharing all of that and being so honest. There were a few things that I was like, I want to touch on these and respond to these.  First, I love your willingness to be so open with your journey. I.  I like teeter here and there in a lot of my episodes about my own mental health journey, but it feels like such a leap sometimes to begin  talking about it.

But to your point about the impact, like we don't know what we share will have it, what kind of impact it will have on somebody, what, how it will resonate, how it will land and how meaningful it can be to other people for us to share our story. And it's a nice reminder, like even in therapy, like We're still people who think we have these very silent struggles that are in silos versus. 

It's something that's like an experience that other people also share  and even thinking about it from a community perspective. It's like how much healing can happen in community amongst other people rather than  what I imagine. And even for myself, it can become so internalized. Like it can be, it becomes this internal battle that I'm struggling by myself rather than being able to have the courage to share with other people and to your point of the worthiness.

I also struggle with the worthiness. Am I worthy to share this story? Am I even worthy of receiving compassion from other people about this? Because it can feel, even as mental health professionals, there's still that stigma that exists in society about certain mental health, especially even eating disorders.

It's it's still such a taboo topic. I think it's something that.  Not everyone feels comfortable sharing for various reasons whether it's other people's comments other like not fitting the standard or the perception of what an eating disorder looks like As someone that struggles with depress like depression on a major scale.

I also present very high functioning, like I can get up, I get the day done. I get what I need to done.  And it's like, when I share it, sometimes people are like, Oh, really? I'm like, yes, like I am in therapy, actively in therapy,  no, no turning back anytime soon. So I can maintain and also. Not feel like I need to hide that part of myself, like allowing those two things to exist at the same time has been  a learning curve for me.

It's been a journey and being able to say, yes, I also struggle with mental health. And it's hot. Like some days are just harder than others. Some days are really hard. And being able  to share that with other people without  the fear of judgment and allowing it to just exist in space in the spaces that I've shared it has been really freeing.

And I don't know if you can. Test or respond to any of that.  

I have so many thoughts. Obviously I'm thinking about how  I didn't feel as comfortable. I don't think to continue to be me out in the world and to share more until I felt like I could combat my scarcity mindset. So I don't know if you can resonate with this at all.

where you're at in your career yet. But this idea that now I feel very lucky to say I don't really want to work with people who don't want me to be a human. I'm fine with people if they want more of the blank slate. And I've worked with some People, I think I still work with a lot of people who don't know I'm on Tiktok at all. 

Like honestly, you still have a huge amount of clients who aren't on Tiktok, don't have any idea what I'm doing on social media and are just oblivious to that. And it doesn't come into our work at all, but genuinely, if someone saw it out in the world and was like, You can't be a therapist if you struggle with your own stuff.

That's just not my style, right? Like that as a humanistic person centered relational therapist, like the whole idea that I'm a person in this space connecting with you on a genuine level. And I don't think that I could continue to. Work with somebody they wouldn't want to work with me, obviously, based off of this example, but I don't think it would be a good fit on either end.

And I think I would be actually okay to say this probably isn't a good fit because I'm out here doing a lot of open.  Conversation about my mental health and other people's mental health in the world. So if you don't want a therapist like that, I'm probably not the therapist for you. But from a scarcity mindset perspective,  to start this journey and put myself out there, I can't tell you how many times. 

And lay awake at night being like, and what if everybody freaks out and leaves, and what if you say something that everybody hates and is offended by, and what if you have no business in two months because you started this little stupid journey?  I think I'm through a hump or so, or two of having that really big panic and being really worried that was going to happen.

And then noticing, okay, my clients are still coming back. Other clients are still coming in. Like people are responding to this and some people want that type of therapist.  But there was a big,  several moments where I was worried about that. And I think that there have been so many moments leading up to this point in my career.

In training, so much imposter syndrome, so many thoughts of who am I even to? And that's why I say all the time in my videos, I'm like,  I'm not an expert on this, but you're asking. So I'm just going to answer the question as best as my abilities and say I'm still a young therapist. I'm not the person with 20 years of experience out in the world.

If that's what you want, go find it from that person. It's a really hard. place to be to like, finally get to the point where I think you're, it sounds like you're toying around with it, how it feels and to see who responds to it and who doesn't respond to it both personally and professionally, but from a professional standpoint, this is our livelihood.

This is our job. It's scary to think about anything that we could do that could potentially harm.  Or, the whole reason that we got into this is to cause good in the world and not cause more harm to people who are suffering. So to have this tool and to say, this is a tool that could go one way or the other is really scary to try and figure out what do we do with that on so many levels? 

Yes. Oh, to your point, even about the self disclosure in school. I come from a program where they're like, keep it bare bones scratch the surface, maybe,  but the impact that I see self disclosure have in session, again, when it's relevant, when it is therapeutically appropriate,  I'm like, wow. 

From a relational standpoint, there is no amount of psychoeducation sometimes, in my opinion, that can sometimes resonate with the client more than a story or a sharing of an experience  because it's  amazing to reflect a story back to the client from a different perspective, from a different point of view and being able to say, you have every right to feel sad about something.

Like I would get sad about that too. It's yeah, like it's a human feeling. It's a human experience, whatever the person might be going through. And I still wait, like I have some clients right now, or I'm like, They love the blank slate. They could care less about what I ate for dinner the other night.

Care less about what I'm doing over the weekend. But there are some where it is valuable because  of their, they might not have the community to share what they're going through, they might.  Again, feel so isolated, whatever they're going through. And so in those small moments to be able to say, you're not alone.

And not just the vague cookie cutter. You're not alone. There's someone out there who understands, but no, the person that you're talking to, gets it like, and being able to empathize on that level. I have found to be really meaningful, but I would say, especially  as I started in May, like fresh  and in my head, I'm like, okay, I need to be like button up.

Everything close to the chest, no laughing. My eyebrows do all the work for me now, but I was like, okay, Jasmine, like tone the eyebrows down, tone the facial expressions down,  just, show up and see what they want. But I,  it didn't feel authentic. And then when it didn't feel authentic, I, Wasn't showing up my best. 

And so I was like, okay, I need to find a balance to this. Even the clothes that I would wear, like even what I would wear on top. I'm like,  no, like I would, I started off with blazers cause I have tattoos. And so I was like, okay, not everyone likes tattoos and.  I want to be so much of a blank slate when I start because out of the fear of, I got to meet these hours.

I need to have a case load.  These people are going to drop me tomorrow because I'm not a seasoned therapist. I'm still so new to it. I'm still learning so much. And so I want to make sure I'm making the best impression that I can. And that. Scarcity mindset then seeped into a lot of insecurity about myself, about how I'm presenting, how I show up. 

And  it wasn't just a lot of, it's like an introspection crash course. Sometimes that's how I think about it. I was like, okay,  at some point. I have to be okay with clients accepting me as I am. And I have to accept myself as I am. So I would  first session, I would typically wear a blazer or sweater, and then maybe second or third session.

I'll try to start short sleep journal. It's the summertime. I should not have on a sweater. I'm sure they're like, why you got a sweater on in June,  have the short sleeves on and no, like some people, Oh, I love your tattoos. Or there were,  no one says anything about it and they ignore it. And it's Oh, wow.

I'm thinking more about  me than the client is.  And once I got over the, that very obvious hump, there were so many other things that I became more comfortable with. So sometimes.  Wearing a blazer sometimes, wearing a t shirt and being okay with that fluctuation because  the relationship fluctuates.

The relationship gets to grow sometimes when we,  I think, share different parts of ourselves and we don't know which ones will resonate in land, but it's up to Us as the, the therapist to  present authentically, and then  the client gets to choose and we have to be okay with how the client chooses.

And the choice could be, I don't want to work with this therapist anymore. It's really funny because I recorded a Tik TOK this weekend about, or maybe last week about. What to feel and how to deal with it when a client doesn't want to work with you. And I had so many of those experiences at the beginning.

Like I have my people that now I've been working with for years and I have my people where they come in for an initial session and I'm like. Yep. This is going to be great. I just can tell when there's a good fit or when, we're just like really in it and the session together.

And it's usually how present I am is usually like a, an indication of that  connection and the feelings that I'm feeling for the client or with the client.  But I remember being like. Losing clients left and right and crying in the bathroom and being like, this is not good. I'm not good at this, but really what it is I am not going to be the best fit for everyone.

And if a client sees your tattoos and is so turned off by your tattoos and your expression of that,  Then maybe it's not the best fit for whatever reason. Or I remember being so stressed about like looking young and wanting to make up all of the time and like dressing a certain way, exactly like you're speaking of as well.

And sometimes I just say I just have no energy. I'm just. Putting my hair up in a bun and I can't wear any makeup today. Like it's Friday. I can't wear any makeup. And I'm like, no client has ever said anything about it and does not care. This is still their time. So your point of usually we're overthinking it so much more  than the client is.

And to your other point of like. All of our parts, we're so multifaceted to I love that you're showing up in a blazer today, but I also want to see you in like streetwear tomorrow. I love like different types of fashion and different types of expression and who's to say that we can't be a therapist that like shows up.

And shows the messy part one day and the super together part the other day, or, I don't know. There's so many different like interests and desires and creative outlets and things that we can like have our hand in at one time. So why should a therapist not show those multiple different sides?

Like sometimes I'm like, I'm like a chameleon. Like I can get along with many different types of people. Maybe that should show more in our work.  

No, I,  yes, 100%. I,  when I started exploring fashion is like a, an evolving window for me. It's been something that I've toyed with like time and time again, because. 

I didn't always feel so comfortable in the clothes that I wore. I was also exploring my own like sexual identity as well, like being a gay woman. And  I was like, okay, if I'm a gay woman, then I need to be masculine. And then the other people will find me attractive if I'm more masculine. But then I was like, that doesn't land.

So then I would hide my body in baggy t shirts. And I just didn't understand how to dress myself. And I was like, oh no, I need to be like the cool, like edgy kind of person. And I'm like, wait.  This only works like to an extent I'm like getting closer and closer. And so I would say over the last definite, like year, I found like this balance of,  I love street wear.

Like I love a good cargo pant and a sweater and sneak. I will always be wearing sneakers. I will. My goal is to always be in a sneaker and a nice sneaker, but blazers has been the happy medium of The card like the cardigan therapist. I like to say I'm the blazer therapist. Like I  bright colored blazer.

Specifically. I work and that's something I used to shy away from. It was something I didn't always feel comfortable and I would hide myself in neutrals again to the just hiding so much of myself. And part of that was not being out, not being. As open as I wanted to be  the freedom that being out gave me is like indescribable.

And part of that got to align with my clothing as well. And so I'm like, I can wear bright colors. I can be as feminine or as like masculine  as I want. And both can exist.  at the same time. And so finding clothes that have allowed me to explore that in between nature comfortably while still staying true to who I am has also  allowed  me to then show up in session that same way and what I wear.

And I, two weeks ago, I was like,  I don't feel like doing my hair more hat and see what the, but in our mind, Hats are so unprofessional. That's like probably the last thing you would wear  in a session, but I was like, okay.  I'm gonna try out like a nice plain fashion hat. Yeah.  Nobody was thinking about it.

The only person that was thinking about that hat was me.  

But it's so fun to give yourself the freedom to explore that, and then to also explore that in terms of your professional identity. We are two therapists sitting here talking about fashion in some ways, but we're talking about so much more.

We're talking about, you just disclosed to me your sexual identity and how Fashion has been a journey for you in terms of how you present in your sexual orientation. And that's a really  Important conversation to be having and I feel like those are conversations that I've had with clients too Around identity no matter how you identify Who am I presenting myself as in the world and how are people going to perceive?

It is a huge component of therapeutic work and fashion is a big part of that  and I love it because  we get to be and try on different things and we don't have to be one thing. And that's really hard to accept, I think, because if we just pick one thing to be, then we can be it perfectly,  perfectionism, coming out like in my mind, like I've struggled with black and white thinking my whole life.

So I want to just figure out who I want to be and then be it and be it as best as I can.  But actually I think what's more freeing and more fun and more. Therapeutically aligned and better for our mental health is to allow ourselves to explore and not stick with one thing and feel like being one thing one morning and feel like putting on a hat one day and putting on a blazer the next day and having it all be a part of our identities.

It's really cool actually, conceptually to think about how it is so much deeper than like the blazer. 

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So much deeper than the clothing, so much deeper than how we show up the initial. Whatever we share is so intentional, right?  

How do you feel disclosing to your clients about being a gay woman? 

I haven't done it directly. That's a very good question. For some who I recognize the benefit, I'm like Yeah, like I totally get it because this is who I am as well. And then my, the practice that I work under,  I, I like subtly put it in a blog post. So I wrote about pride in June.  And  again, the authenticity point, I was writing it and I got through most of it.

And I was like,  I feel like I'm pandering and I also feel like I am doing. someone a disservice by not disclosing no, I'm writing this because this is a part of who I am. This is a part of my identity. And so when I like recrafted it  to  subtly share about the ability to accept myself allowed me to then share myself with other people and being proud.

Part of that is  I had to be okay with myself first. Like I had to have such a deep seated  Okayness with who I am  and that allowed me to be okay. And I like put that in the blog post and my supervisor was like, you didn't have to share yourself. I'm like,  but it felt unfair. If I'm going to ask. 

If I'm going to hope that people show up and share themselves  with me, I'm like,  the least I can do is put myself in a blog post, the least I can do is write okay, yes, this is who I am, this is I get it, and so that, I've done it both directly, but also it is out there if people were looking and they were curious, it is out there.

I'm there for reading and  on my digital footprint now  

and on this podcast, right? And it's out in the world in a place where people could find it if they wanted to. That sounds very similar to how I started to because it was like, okay, my eating disorder stories out there. If you Google me, you'll see it.

If you want to do that research to find out more about me, to see if you're, continually comfortable sharing with me, totally fine. And then everything else can just be in our container. That comes up and comes out and that's totally fine too. And I will be curious to check in with you. Maybe, as you become licensed or as you maybe start your own practice, if that's something in your goals one day  to see if it just becomes like, all right, I'm Jasmine.

I'm out there. This is who I am. This is my practice. This is who I help because  I've found that there's been a lot of benefit to, being an eating disorder therapist who's had. Eating disorder experience, but I didn't know that at the time. I wouldn't have said yep, be open with everybody all the time. 

Never wouldn't say that today, right? Because  I don't know. It's just it's just an interesting line and At certain points too. Maybe I didn't want my only specialty to be Eating disorders. So I don't know if that's the case for you if you want to work with lgbtq  community folks or if you want to work with it a wide range, especially while you're Studying and then niche down and figure out like who am I?

What do I do? Who do I help and have it be really specific. So it is interesting to in terms of disclosure And specialty, whether or not you want to specialize in something that you've gone through because you feel so passionate about it or not. I like to say that I feel lucky that my caseload is not just eating disorders because  that could be triggering if that was a caseload, and it was my only specialty. It's not ugly, but I like to have multiple different types of people that I'm working with that don't just look like me and have the same struggles as me. So it's like a double edged sword, but in a good way  to think about  there could be benefits to disclosing. There could be drawbacks to disclosing.

How do we do a little bit of both so that we're seeing and doing the thing that we're most passionate about maybe, or. Also, like going into areas that would never be available to us if we never got to study or work with communities that are outside of our  personal struggles or like our professional interests from our personal struggles it's just this interesting question to ponder and think about because I know so many people that are like, I do this one thing, I do it really well, I have personal experience with it.

And that's and then there's so much  benefit to doing so many different types of work as well. So it's like you can do both. I was just curious. I wanted to ask about that to see if that aligned with your specialty or like the reason that you became a therapist or if it's just like one tiny piece of the puzzle, which I'm guessing it probably is because we're so multifaceted. 

Yes, it's definitely one piece of the puzzle. I think.  I don't, I definitely know I don't have any interest in niching down. I love the relational aspects and being able to explore relationships. I have been so fortunate to have such a diverse range of the clients that I see right now in, in all areas.

And so getting to learn and  see what areas I do want to feel like an expert in. And. I think also part of that is I've found ways to  live this out in other areas of my life. So I've also served as a board of director for Annapolis Pride. And so  I plan, I've planned, I've helped to support Pride the last two years within Annapolis.

I've helped plan like the parade and festival. So I get  I guess that fulfillment somewhere else. And then again, later on down the line that might change, but I think, right now  I do get that.  I get it served somewhere else. And so I don't know, I don't know where that will land and we'll, fall. 

I also want to turn the question back to you though, when you decided to become a therapist,  was it one piece of the puzzle or you recognized you wanted to help and support?  People with a similar like journey as you  

it was exactly what you just said, a person,  a piece of the puzzle, not the whole reason for me going back to school, but a big one.

Really? I felt like it was okay  in terms of meaning making and finding purpose in my life. I think that I'm a believer. I grew up in a church setting. So this is helpful to think about the God. Everything happens for a reason. I've since stepped away from it. That as a like religion and institution mindset, but I think I'm still a very spiritual person that likes to believe that everything does happen for a reason that there's some sort of  higher universal power.

Like I'm, I believe in gratitude. I believe in like the universe and I believe in that kind of stuff, like pushing. Some sort of life story forward. So I think at that time it really made sense to me. Like I had this moment in treatment where someone thought that I was a therapist and I thought that memory will not get out of my head.

Maybe I could do this. I've always related to people, always been really good on one conversations with friends, always had a lot of friends. I've been like  feeling like networking or that's why I went into PR prior. So like talking with people and connecting and networking and being with.

Humans felt like it was really good at, and then it felt okay.  My life has toppled upside down and I need to figure out what I'm going to do with this massive thing that I've gone through. And so it did feel organic to say I'm going to probably be an eating disorder therapist. And specializing in that ended up being something that I did want to do, but I allowed myself to have multiple different And my supervisor allowed me to have multiple different kind of exposures to, like you're talking about, a wide range of clients.

So I actually did work a lot with the LGBTQ community in my first  internship and then job because my boss was a gay man. That was an exposure I don't think I ever would have gotten if I did not work for a gay man in New York City. As the trickle down effect of clients that are coming in to him, wanting to work with him.

He has some people who are trained below him. And he also had an eating disorder specialty. So it ended up being like a great combination of working with many different people in the community for me and then trauma and eating disorders go hand in hand.  So sexual trauma from my previous work in like the women's rights. 

I worked for, this is complicated, but I worked for a venture capital fund and invested in female founded companies. And the owner and founder is, and has a specialty in gender strategies. So then learning so much and being a female empowerment kind of advocate, like in that space drew me into the women's rights space in my work.

And then. Sexual trauma and eating disorders specifically being so closely tied. I like really fell in love with trauma work and seeing how I could potentially make an impact in that space so that those two specialties grew organically like from one another. And then it's like when you have such heavy specialties on these ends, you have to balance it out in another way.

I was really interested in couples work when I was first starting school. And then I found that I do not like couples work  particularly. I am happy that I got some exposure to it and worked with different couples over the years. And I don't want anyone to hear that and think that I did not enjoy working with them.

I do. I don't like the mediation aspect of it. Like I like to be on one person's side fully. And it's, I can take myself out of it and be unbiased, but I just like that one on one work and being like one person's advocate more than I like mediating and facilitating communication with two people.

I like mediating and helping facilitate communication with one person and helping them express themselves and bringing that to their relationship and noticing attachment styles and relational patterns that I'm hearing, playing out over and over again. And like that kind of stuff,  the relationship and then anxiety.

Everybody struggles with anxiety. So that kind of becoming another organic specialty because it's just like running rampant out there developed on its own, too. So I like the balance. I feel like everything comes back to trauma sometimes. Like I'm like, Always having that trauma informed lens to say where did this come from?

What experiences have created this impact and it's you know again more common than we think But I like that my specialty is grown out of only what I have experienced, but then I also Still have a fervor and like passion for helping people who've experienced what I've experienced And something that we've been like circling around is this way of disclosing without disclosing Which I think is when we speak directly to an experience without saying I know because I have Like you were saying like the I can imagine it would feel Like X, Y, Z, 1, 2, 3, or sometimes I'll be like, people I work with tend to say  X, Y, Z, 1, 2, 3, or feeling a certain way.

This is a universal experience and sharing that, even if it comes directly specifically from my experience, but not saying that in the session.  Can make a client feel so seen and heard because I know it's a pretty valid experience because I've literally experienced that line of thinking.  And I know other people have, because I've now been with, other people who struggled with it personally and professionally, so like pulling out.

Universal truths in a niche subject from our work and from our personal experience can be a fun way to disclose without disclosing and have a client be like, yes, this person gets me. They understand what I'm experiencing. Cause they said this and not having to bring ourselves particularly into it can be an interesting, like dance with that concept. 

I think we got five more episodes to talk about  someone who has also started off in a very religious background and who is now  not into the institution, not into the structure of it anymore. Just,  I realized it contributed to so much of the perfectionist tendencies that I carry.  And I didn't really put those two and two together until much, much later on.

I was like, Oh, okay.  It's a whole different story, but I was like, okay, wow, real true impact here. But allowing myself to be one in nature, like I love, I need, I have to go on a walk in the morning. It just resets the day, resets the tone. I being able to practice gratitude, being able to be okay with the here and now, and being able to ebb and flow. 

Out of in and out of my feelings and not shaming them and not judging them so harshly  that has given that's freed up so much mental space for one, but it's also  allowed, again, to your point to be able to speak to  the universal universality  of feelings and experiences and being able to disclose without disclosing because  I've stopped spending so much time judging.

The feeling and just have allowed myself to live in it a little bit more and not need to feel like this rush to get out of it, this rush to absolve it and move from it, but saying, okay, this is what like  anger feels like. And that's if I had a list of feelings that I was okay with experiencing anger as like the last one that's like an, that was no, no territory for me being okay.

What does being okay with anger feel like?  And being able to sit in it allows me, I feel like, to better  describe it, like it allows me to better address it without needing to put myself in that shoe and say, no, I, yeah, I've been angry before, but I'm able to better verbalize the experience from maybe a holistic perspective. 

I also, I see a few couples and I.  It's such a different hat because I love being able to explore attachment styles. I love being able to discuss attachment. I love discussing relationships.  But to, and then to view it from a system, but it's from a systems perspective. It's so it's oh, no, I am not one person's advocate.

I am both  parties advocate  needing to find the bridge and work to hear both parties and then piece it together and. And doing the work, it's just so different. I that couples was actually a last stitch when my supervisor asked me, what are you interested in it?  Something nudged me and said, try couples  and I love it's such a it forces me to train such a different part of my brain that I don't always exercise with individuals.

It's with individuals, I love  being in it, being like advocating for this one person, being able to explore their journey as an individual. And then with couples, it's okay, no, then we get into systems work.  What's going on in the system? How can we strengthen the system? What, like what needs to happen?

And then mediation as needed.  It's it allows, I think it forced me to take a step back sometimes and then be able to. I think I learned so much also from recognizing other people's attachment and how we attach to other people. I'm like, Oh, okay. XYZ, whatever's going on. I see it. Can they, Bowlby's got the language for it.

I'm seeing it in real time. Let's. Let's work it out. And so I can attest to so much of what you're saying.  

It's so nice to be able to get that exposure while you are training as well, like to be able to experience so many different types of therapy and then choose what do I like the most? Because I, one of my biggest things, I think I tried to express out in the world for therapists is make your own schedule.

Do what you like. We have so many student loans and we have done so much to get here we should be leading by example to say we could live the life that makes us the happiest as a therapist. That doesn't mean we don't just still struggle,  but I'm always like, encouraging other therapists to. 

Explore and see it like it's so nice that your supervisor is creating those opportunities for you I'm trying so hard to get my intern like a couple and a group like I want her to have as much as she Can to then decide? Okay, this is for me. This isn't for me  and being able to work with different parts of our brains to say, Oh, today I'm going to be, working on this type of case.

And that requires me to learn more about this and have a wider toolbox as a therapist. And I love being able to say,  Ooh, this strategy and this theory is really good for people who think this way. I still root myself in one theoretical orientation because. It's what we're taught to do. And just in terms of becoming more confident and competent, like you really niche into something, like you're going to be better at it naturally.

But there's so much rhetoric out there of Ooh, this theory is better than this theory. I'm okay, maybe for you, but there is so much usefulness to so many different theories out there.  So you were talking about systems work, internal family systems is amazing, like CBT can be amazing.

People talk crap about it all the time, but  it can be amazing. It can be life changing for somebody to start to think about something in a different way. DBT, like all of the different theories and getting exposure to working with as many of them as possible is the way that we learn what works best for us and then what we need to learn more of.

To help certain clients that walk in our door. Not every client is also going to provide with our approach. So I think that  having one approach, but then also saying, let me try a few things. Really helpful in terms of learning what we like to do and what works for certain types of clients. I love that you're getting to do a bunch of different things in your caseload.

That's just so exciting. 

Yes, I love what you say. It's almost like making adjustments. Like I personally Tend to, again, lean more towards the psychodynamic relational orientation. Very fee, I'm very feelings driven.  And then I have to stop myself and recognize that everyone starts there. Like some people are so in their thought and that's where CBT is effective.

Like  we have to meet the client wherever they are to an extent, like we have to be able to support their journey. And that comes with pulling from different facets and saying, you know what.  I want to support you and this is how I can best support you. Might not be where my brain starts.

It might not be where my initial, when I'm thinking about treatment planning, like that, where I initially go, that might be, I might be thinking about step 10. We need to start at step one and being okay.  Emphasis on being okay with being able to make that adjustment and recognizing it's not a reflection of like my work ethic or anything like that.

And again, not internalizing so much of the journey and being able to say, okay,  we're making the adjustments for learning. We're growing and that's.  I feel like that never, stops. I've worked in, I've worked in quasi government. I've worked in so many different people oriented roles. And I also worked in like dual diagnosis, like treatment facility.

And so being able to have those experiences too and recognizing, okay, what worked in those professions as well? What can I bring into Being a therapist and being in this space now and what can, and also what can I leave? What doesn't serve  in this role? Like I'm a firm believer in like time autonomy to I might not see a client before nine o'clock.

I'm just not awake and I gotta be fair to everybody involved.  I'll see you at nine 30 or nine o'clock.  And then I'm learning even my cutoff time. Like I cannot go too late in the day as and so learning  how to prioritize and meet clients needs. And also we are therapists and we are people.  I, if my needs aren't being met, like all of them, like financially, emotionally, spiritually, if all of those things aren't being met, then I cannot show up.

into the like session. I cannot show up into the room and give my best self that I want to give.  

I think one of your questions when you sent them to me before this was like about confidence. And I feel like we're like talking about confidence in all of these different subjects that we keep bringing up as a therapist and growing that in order to say, I can't actually adjust my schedule because Fridays are sacred to me, or the 7 a.

m. isn't going to work, or I can't work a 14 hour day. That's just not possible for me. Getting out and through the scarcity mindset is really hard in order to be able to do that. And once we start doing it and feeling confident having those conversations, or even being confident enough to say, this is usually how I approach what you're bringing into the room as a therapist.

And you seem frustrated or I'm noticing that  it seems like you need something different. Could we talk about what you might need more of in this space? Feels so terrifying as a newer therapist to be like, I'm going to admit to a client, I don't know what to do with them. Because we're.  Position of power.

We're supposed to be the person who has the plan who's going to show them how we can help them who has all the tools and all the things. And I think it's a balance of saying, I do have a lot of ideas. I have a lot of tools at my disposal. I have a lot of training that you don't have that goes on behind the curtain.

This is how I usually approach it. And it seems like you're not happy. So  what do you need? Or even if they're not happy  asking periodically, are you getting what you need? And transferring a little bit of that autonomy and power to the client and allowing them for me.  Allowing for them to be the advocate for themselves in this space is a microcosm for maybe outside in the world is such a delicate tool as well to say it feels scary to do that as a new therapist.

We want to always be playing therapist, I think being the therapist, whatever that means to us feels really scary to take the curtain behind and say. Hey, here's what I'm trying to do here. Do you feel like it's working or do you feel like you need a different approach?  So jarring for people sometimes, but also so effective.

So when I hear, since you're saying you're a newer therapist and you're toying around with all these concepts I just feel like you are going to be amazing because you're going to continue to allow yourself to show up and allow yourself, it sounds like you are more comfortable not being in the position of power, but being the. 

Person who's like in the driver's seat or the passenger seat, the client's in the driver's seat, you're in the passenger's, you're checking in, giving direction, seeing how they feel. And I feel like you're going to become more and more comfortable with that. And it's going to flourish your therapeutic relationships because. 

Once we stop worrying about being the therapist, once we put on the hat, take off the blazer, do all the things like, I think that's really where the audience that is supposed to come to us, the clients that are supposed to come to us, find us. And then  all of the good stuff continues to happen. I'm happy to hear that you're a spiritual person too, because it's like the more we learn, the more we grow, the more we express and try to live by our values.

I feel like The more easily we're able to help clients live by theirs and find what works for them as we're doing it alongside them. It's it sounds so backwards, but like we learn from our clients all the time and we should be like allowing for that collaboration. If we're this type of therapist, like you and I are from a very similar approach.

I know other people might hear this and be like, that's not my vibe. Like I want to be the person who has their shit together fully for my clients so that they don't feel like they. Can't trust me or whatever. And if that works for them, that works for them. But I've just found the authenticity, the genuineness, the being a little bit messy, the being a little bit honest and authentic so much better for me.

I'm getting some spidey senses that it's going to work really well for you.  

Yeah, if we. If we say we value the relational oriented approach,  a relationship is not one sided and you can't build  a relationship with a blank and it's not safe to do like for some people who come in with such deep mistrust from Trump.

The laundry list is long of why people come in with so much mistrust and then we're expected for them to disclose to a complete stranger. It's that's all back. I think that's all backwards. I think it's again. I use the word unfair because when I think about relationships  that are one sided, they're unfair. 

It's come on, like  what'd you make for dinner? And if you want to know, I'll tell you, I don't, I'm not attached to what I made for dinner. One, 

I've asked clients that question when they've jokingly just I'll call in, like you're distracting or you're deflecting come on this is a session about you and I'll do it jokingly with them, but I've had clients push back and be like, everything about me and I don't know everything about you. Yeah, because you're not supposed to, because even though this is a reciprocal relationship to some extent,  it is not a true reciprocal relationship. You're not here supporting me. I'm here supporting you. So it's a real relationship, but it's a real professional relationship. 

I've totally let go of the, what did you have for dinner? I'm not going to spend 20 minutes on what that means to a client. I will sometimes ask, why is it important for you to know? I think one day I was like fiddling around with my rings and like accidentally put one on like my ring finger and a client was like, Oh my God.

I was like no. I'm fine to tell you like briefly about my sexual orientation or if I have a partner don't, or, where I did have dinner the other day or what little things about my life because I've had clients say back to me that, that same thing of I know so much, so much about me.

I know nothing about you. And I'm like if that'll help you feel more comfortable  opening up a little bit more because you'll feel like you're not just sharing all of your information, you don't know anything about me. There are certain things I'm fine with my clients knowing. 

I hate to wrap this conversation up. I know this is so much fun. 

But I will ask again, all our parts, we are multifaceted people, but we are people first. And so I wanted to end with the question of  what has allowed you the freedom to be vulnerable in your relationships in your own life?  

Oh,  freedom to be vulnerable.  In my relationships, in my own life,  the fact that I have been met with more support, the more open that I am, it really is other people's responses to me have allowed me to continue to be vulnerable.

So I feel like if I had done the disclosing and it had been  re traumatizing or traumatizing to me, I probably would have gone into my shell and never wanted to try it again, but because I have friends and family. And relationships in my life that I feel like I can be open because they respond to me with support or they respond to me with, I don't know how to support you.

And I'm able to say, here's what I need,  because I've done so much practicing on figuring out what do I need at different times in my struggles.  If you are able to share with other people and share, and I think I just need to sit here in silence or, and I think you could support me by making sure that I'm eating enough at dinner because we live together and it would be really helpful for me if you call me out, if you see that I didn't get any groceries this week or that you're sitting down for dinner and you haven't seen me in a few hours, like that would be super helpful or sharing a bit.

And this is what I could use in this moment is really helpful for people. And I think softens that blow of them freaking out and being like, Oh, I don't know what to do with this information. And that's how I've continued to be able to be vulnerable because I'm able to share and then say, and I know you probably don't know what to say or, and I think if you could sit here with silence.

In silence with me for a couple minutes. That would be really helpful or whatever. That's been a game changer for sharing because you're sharing and you're also offering a little bit of insight into why you're sharing so that people aren't like left with a  trauma dump  or disclosure or you're asking, do you have space to hear?

Something right now, like really need to vent about this thing. Do you have two minutes and it allows someone to say, no, I don't. This has been a crazy week. Want to talk this weekend. And you have to figure out what to do with that. And that's our job, right? It's asking for permission. It's giving a little bit of insight.

I think those two tools have helped me continue to disclose and the kindness of people around me is definitely number one.  

Okay. Wow. Yeah.  Yeah. Yeah.  

Oh my goodness. It's been so amazing to meet you. Thank you so much for having me. I cannot even tell you how excited I am to have done this conversation and to hear more about your life and your journey and your like therapeutic takeover someday.