Loving People From Afar: Healthy Ways To Let Go with Kellyn Legath (replay)

in this vulnerable + validating episode of All Our Parts, Kellyn joins me to talk about one of the hardest parts of growing up:
✨ friendship transitions ✨

we get into:
 💬 what happens when college besties grow in different directions
 🚪 the ache of friendship breakups (and why avoidance isn’t it)
 🥂 shifting away from party culture & becoming sober curious
 🌱 loving people from afar without losing yourself

this one’s for anyone who’s felt the sting of outgrowing old dynamics while trying to stay true to who you are now.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome to All Our Parts, where all of it is brought to the table. The messy, the joyful, the mundane, and everything in between. Where we talk about that terrible friendship breakup, where we talk about how we've lost ourselves and how we've come back to ourselves. This is the show that will offer strategy, a laugh, and maybe a cry, but you'll leave feeling like you can make the steps towards being your most authentic self. y'all this episode is so heartfelt i am so proud of the conversation that kellen and i were able to cultivate this is for anyone that is just really struggling and or trying to figure out how to navigate letting people go with love while we center this conversation around friendships and navigating the transition from college to, you know, quote unquote, the real adult world. This is truly for anybody who is sitting through figuring out how to transition their relationships. Kellen, this was such an amazing conversation. I am so excited to share it with the world. And I am so excited for you. So without further ado, let's get into it. Hello, Kellen. Thank you so much for joining All Our Parts. I'm so happy to have you here. Oh, I'm so excited to be here. Just to start, tell us just a little bit about what you do and, you know, who

SPEAKER_00 1:45

you are. Yeah. I am a, I'm calling myself a relationship guide. I think coach has this sort of description that's like you're telling people what to do. And so much of what I do is like guiding people to what's best for them. Like, I'm always like, I have no idea what's best for you. So really at the end of the day, I'm really helping people just have healthy happier relationships which is the best thing ever I'm like it just feels like such an honor to help people move through that and it's something that I always think we were just never taught right it's like I'm offering people tools that they were never taught and that every single person needs

SPEAKER_01 2:31

yes I don't think we're ever really taught how to navigate friendships as adults I mean when we're younger we see them in school we go in the playground together, plan a sleepover, invite the whole class. And then you turn 21, 22, you leave college. You don't have that built in time set. You don't have that community anymore. And so what does it look like to see people, to interact with people, to maintain those relationships outside of very fixed settings? And so, yeah, it's hard to think everyone hits friendship

SPEAKER_00 3:07

bumps in the road. For sure. even even in hearing you say like as a little kid it's like oh you're having the birthday party and you're inviting some people and I even think that there's drama or conflict right in that right we're not like our parents aren't taught and if we don't take it upon ourselves to learn then it's just gonna get passed on you know how do we deal when we're like we don't want to invite that person to the birthday party and then they get left out and what does that look like and it just carries on it's like that same stuff from elementary school is what you're facing when you're 25 or 35 or just an adult, right?

SPEAKER_01 3:46

Yes, exactly. And I think we have been taught to be conflict avoidant. And thinking about the classroom dynamic, the teacher always says, bring enough cupcakes for everybody, bring enough invitations for everybody. And it's like, you know, you don't want everybody, like, even as a kid, you know, there are people that you might not vibe with, that they're not vibing with you, and you still have to make sure they have a cupcake. Even Valentine's Day, everyone, the little, like, Valentine's Day, valentine's day generic cards with the very gross candy that's always attached to them um yeah it's like we're never taught how to move through conflict move through instead we're like okay how do we make the most cohesive space for everyone and as we've learned in friendships and even in friendship breakups it doesn't always like pan out that way and i think that's why it feels like such a moral failing in friendship breakups when we can't seem to find the cohesion or find the flow oh my gosh

SPEAKER_00 4:55

yeah and i think what you just said is really important it's that we it's not even that we don't know how to um address the conflict it's that we're not even like sitting with the conflict most of the time right most of the time we're like this person upset me and that's the fact and that's it and that's the loop that we stay stuck on right this friendship is failing or we're arguing or we're not getting along or they didn't invite me somewhere or there's conflict, there's a pull. And in the sitting with it, looking at it and being like, what is this about? That's where the work is. And most of us are going 1,000 miles per hour. We're not taking the time to process. What we're doing instead is jumping to confirmation bias, jumping to our other friends to be like, hey, can you believe that they did this? Wasn't it terrible? And they're like, yeah, that was terrible. How could they do that? And you're like, great, moving on. And then you go on TikTok and a video is served to you with the exact scenario, exactly what you're going through with your friend. And you're like, great, I'm in the right and they're in the wrong. And I'm so right. And we're not kind of processing through it on our own and getting to a place where we're thinking really consciously about what do I want the result to be here? Do I want to end this Do I want to have a really tough conversation? Do I not want to have a tough conversation right now? Maybe I just want to take space. That's sort of where all the juice is, right? That's where all the work is.

SPEAKER_01 6:29

Yeah. You just jog a memory of a friendship breakup that I navigated post-undergrad. We were very, like, even speaking to that fixed setting and everything you just said, we were really close. We were, you know, we always spent time together. And then And she was a year ahead of me. And so when I graduated, she like came to my graduation. Well, let me rewind. So my final year of being an undergrad, we kind of just were starting the phase out. And I don't think the other person knew how to say anything because we lived in close proximity and the expectation was that we grew together. And so eventually I would, you know, try and reach out and make plans with her and she just like would flake or she'd say not feeling up to it and then would make plans with somebody else and I'd be like is it me like is this a I was leaning into the confirmation bias but then I also was like okay I'm gonna pump the brakes and allow myself to give this person some grace and then when it came up to my graduation she like showed up to the graduation but didn't like say goodbye to me which was It's so bizarre. So as time went on, I really worked to try and not lean into that confirmation bias. But ultimately, her not wanting to make amends or say goodbye in that moment was ultimately the end of the friendship. And I thought, man, if I just keep pulling and keep pulling and keep pulling and not leaning into the very clear signs that are there, that were there I was like it took me like a year after to be like oh this friendship's over and to make peace with that was its own thing because it's a ghosting and yeah but to even talk like yes we don't want to lean into that confirmation bias and sometimes the signs are like They're like, hello. They're like a yellow sign. It's flashing. It's starting to make noise. And I don't think we know. It's hard to navigate which is which. Again, it all goes back to we were never really taught what the green flags of adult friendships were. We always learn attachment theory first. from adolescence with parents, but we never really discuss attachment theory from the sense of, okay, what are some green flags in friendships as you get older? Like, how does that continue to play out?

SPEAKER_00 9:13

Yeah. You know, I think, oh man, you said so many things. My brain is like, oh, where should we go? I love this. You know, I think just to first call out and say, when a friendship dynamic shifts in the way that you just described, it's so unbelievable upsetting, disruptive. Because friendships are like our safe space. The things that we share with friends, the experiences that we have with friends, they are so unlike any other relationship that we have. It's different than what we share with our parents, obviously. It's obviously so much different than what we share with our partners. It's, I think, where we share most of our inner dialogue. And I think it's really interesting to see when you feel... the emotional shift. You see something happening the way you're describing when you're watching, oh, something's off here, right? It's like your intuition is sort of telling you there's been a glitch in the matrix, right? What was moving or like a slow moving river is suddenly a little bit more disruptive and it feels out of place. And Then, like you said, you see something happen and you're like, yep, I was true. And all of this is happening without conversation with another person. So it's really just your own thoughts about the relationship, right? And then what you think is happening. And unless you have that conversation, you really can't know. I do think as much as you can tune into your intuition, I always want to tell people to do so. But also at the same time, you have to watch when your brain is making up stories because our brains are so dramatic. And our relationships with other people are truly our thoughts about them and their thoughts about us. And that's the really simple version of it. So when those breakups are happening, like I said, it can just be so... disruptive. And then as far as you were asking about green flags in friendship, right? And I think there's pillars. I always like to look at things with pillars like communication and fun and mutual respect and understanding. And, you know, there's something really to be said about having friendships where you can communicate openly and it doesn't need to mean that the friendship has gone awry, right? I think that's the biggest thing that I've learned in my friendships where there is conflict. Like there certainly is something that is disruptive and that you're able to bring it to the table and say, hey, I noticed this shift. Can we talk about this? And have the other person meet you with compassion and understanding and be like, oh my gosh, why are you thinking that? Or did it, you know, know just having the conversation truly is one of the most important things in friendship because at the end of the day we are humans and we are going to have disagreements and our inner children are running the show and they're going to be like this feels uncomfortable or this feels weird or this feels combative so I think the biggest thing is being able to have uncomfortable conversations with your friends about the friendship that to me is like one of the biggest green flags ever.

SPEAKER_01 13:09

A relationship assessment, a DTRing, you know, whatever we want to name it, it is so valuable to be able to say, where is the, like, what, what are we doing? Where's this friendship going? And it's so sad that sometimes people think that's like too serious within friendship is to be like, what are we doing here? You know, what's the vibe? Is this a situationship? Are we, you know, long distance, low communication, low commitment. And it's, it's like, actually, no, it's actually very helpful for the both of us to understand what kind of energy we are investing in this relationship because friendships within any, umbrella whether they're you know catch up go to go to a bar go to play games or really deep intimate ones they both require an energetic transaction and so at least for me I like to understand what energetic transaction I'm getting into because there's only so many hours in the day and there is only so much to be putting out and to your point I think in any umbrella of friendship, mutual respect has to be there

SPEAKER_00 14:24

For sure. I love that you said energetic exchange. I'm like, yes, it is that, right? And I often think it's so funny. We always set goals, right? As a society, I think a lot of people are like, I'm setting goals. I want to lose 10 pounds. I'm setting goals. I want a promotion. And we don't set goals in friendship or relationship. And I'm like, it's a really interesting thing that I think hasn't quite caught on yet. But it's really about intent. Being intentional, right? What do I have to offer to this friendship? What, like you said, is the energetic exchange here? And a lot of that to me is moving forward and adapting, moving forward and adapting. Because I think a lot of times we're all shifting and evolving, right? All the time. And there are times in my friendship where I started the friendship and was like, great, I'm your going out friend. I'm this person. And then, you know, things evolved in my life. And I'm like, now I'm very focused on other things. So if you want to go on a hike, now I'm that person for you. But I'm probably not going to be, you know, the person that is going out on a Tuesday night. And that's okay. That doesn't mean I like you less. It doesn't mean I want to spend less time with you. It just means like my internal dynamic has shifted and my focus has shifted. So, you know, I think what you're getting us to is also you know, taking inventory of ourselves. What can I offer in this friendship right now? What do I want this friendship to look like? And that's a huge part of healthy friendships in my eyes.

SPEAKER_01 16:09

Yeah. I mean, you just even spoke to the idea of how much our relationship to ourselves does impact the relationship that we have with other people. As somebody who has explored like sober curiosity and can go through periods where drinking isn't for me, it can sometimes throw the dynamic off because I'm like, I've been in a Shirley Temple era right now. It's just so fun. I'm like, yes, this hits exactly what I'm looking for, but I haven't really been a huge fan of alcohol lately. And so sometimes I'll be out with my friends, they're like, oh, what are you doing? I'm like, I'm just chilling, but I also maybe need to you just pointed something out for me is like maybe going out isn't like for me right now and so even just being able to be up front with that and saying you know I'd love to get coffee with you or I'd love to just let's just go to lunch or let's go for a walk I have been like posing the idea of ice cream because that everyone loves ice cream so summer it's like

SPEAKER_00 17:13

who doesn't want to do that

SPEAKER_01 17:16

everyone there's dairy-free options so in the city so no one's left out no No one is feeling, you know, out of place, but just finding those very mutual, like, okay, everyone will enjoy this. And just while also being honest about the fact that like, I'm not really a partying right now. Like I'm not, not really drinking right now and that's okay. And there's no force or push for you to meet me there, but I need to be honest about where I am right now.

SPEAKER_00 17:49

I would love to spend time on this. a little bit because I think alcohol in general is a really interesting thing in our society as far as bonding and friendships this to me goes back to what you're saying in the beginning it's like we're in the beginning of friendships we're in elementary school and then we evolved to high school and then we evolved to college and college in the US is so much revolving around alcohol right it's like if you can do the longest keg stand you're the coolest person at the party and we're all championing that right and Maybe that has shifted since I've been in college, but I think it's, you know, it's a big part. And, and then we, after we graduate, you know, so much of our friendships and interactions do end up being like, where are we going? What are we doing? We're going out to the bar. We're meeting more people. We still want to be in that community and connection. And I think, especially as like the sober curious movement is growing and growing and growing. I stopped drinking about two years ago. And I was really nervous when that happened. I'm like, how is this going to affect my friendships and going out? And what does that look like? I, at least for me, my sober journey was very much about like, this isn't serving me. I'm not enjoying this. So I'm okay to be around it. You know, I think there are, of course, a ton of people that are like, you know, are alcoholics or they are very much like, I don't want to be in a bar setting. And then When you start to pull away from that and then a bunch of other friends don't, that is like a huge, I think a huge breaking off point for a lot of friendships. Have you seen that as you've been working with people?

SPEAKER_01 19:36

Oh, for sure. I mean... And thinking about the college dynamic, freshmen, like I'm thinking about my freshman welcome week where the only thing we all could do together because we didn't know each other was go out, go out, grab a drink, go to a frat party because we have nothing else to talk about. And we also don't know how to break that ice of discomfort that we don't know each other, that we are strangers. And so rather than sitting and maybe playing a card game and maybe getting to know one another, we're like, oh, no, let's go get some liquid courage and then we're gonna get to know the wildest part of each other in this very new setting and as some I mean I was as someone who has been avoidant of intimacy in their own relationships like partying was very much my scene in undergrad I was like this is like my safe space like there is a very huge barrier between you and me and I can be as fun as I want to be I can put on the mirror. And then as I've gotten older and as I've recognized the value and intimacy in any capacity, it's been like, actually, I don't want to be bumped up sweaty beside a bunch of strangers for three hours. And even a really good friend of mine that our friendship in undergrad started out, we were in very mutual spaces, but we always went out together. We were partying. And so we always lived very close to one another. And so a lot of our time would be, let's go out, let's go out, let's go out. But we also have a much deeper friendship than that. And so it's been nice to segue our friendship into, let's go to happy hour. Let's go to dinner. Hey, bed by 10. Great. Do you want to do this league sport with me? And it's been so cool to watch our friendship evolve outside of the party space. But alcohol is a true, it's make or break a lot of times. But it also, I think, it highlights where you want to be and where you don't want to be. So

SPEAKER_00 21:45

true. Oh, my gosh.

SPEAKER_01 21:47

Yes. If I am... If I got to pregame it, I might not need to go. And that's, I'm like, I think maybe I actually don't want to go. And then rather than being honest with myself and saying, actually, I don't want to go. I'm like, you know what? I'll work myself up to it. I'll get the courage. I'll get, you know, all of the energy from, you know, a vodka crayon or whatever, and go to this event when actually I don't want to sit with the fact that I don't want to be around some people, or I just don't want to be in that place. And again, that avoidance, it all comes back to that avoidance of the discomfort, avoidance of the conflict that might come up because we are uncertain of how to navigate it or what that rupture will look like.

SPEAKER_00 22:35

Oh my gosh. A hundred percent. Everything that you said is just so spot on, right? I think it's such a difficult thing to manage because it It's just the dynamic of, and how much we're affected by our friend group, right? Is it the most, is it the five people you hang out with or the three people you hang out with that you're the most like? So when something starts to shift, it is so scary. And usually it's such a personal thing. And, you know, I think to what you're saying, like when I stopped drinking, it allowed me to show up in such a different way because I was using alcohol to nurture my discomfort and my social anxiety and all of these things. So as soon as I took that blanket away, I just showed up in such a different way. And I was forced to because I still wanted to be social and I still wanted to be around people. And it allowed me just to connect in such a different way. And I think what you're saying, especially about like, oh my gosh, do I need to drink a vodka cranberry to go to this event? It's such a good indicator of like, if you need to numb yourself through something maybe it's just not your thing anymore and that's such a great thing to acknowledge and recognize

SPEAKER_01 24:02

yeah for sure it's It's almost freeing. It's like, do I choose to be myself or do I choose to be this version that I know is digestible and compatible with any given scenario? And when we are in that journey of finding ourselves and finding who we are, it's also really hard, I think, to accept how much we've changed or what has changed about us.

UNKNOWN 24:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:32

I enjoyed a good party. And then to wake up one day and be like, oh, actually, this doesn't even align with who I am or where I am.

SPEAKER_02 24:41

It's like,

SPEAKER_01 24:42

oh, grieving the change of that loss. But then I get to allow myself to expand and to be open to other opportunities and other ways to connect with people. And so when we are, I mean, when we're saying no, we're ultimately choosing ourselves. When we're choosing to show up as ourselves, we are choosing ourselves and allowing ourselves to choose the relationships that are in tandem with who we are.

SPEAKER_00 25:11

Yeah. I think the grief part of this is enormous, really. I think the realizing that there is a shift, like you're like, oh, this isn't fit anymore, or I'm not doing the same thing that I used to do. And you start to pull away from the group. It really is that primal brain that And you're like, oh my gosh, my entire group is going that way. And now suddenly I'm going this way. And it's like, I'm going to die out here. That's really what is going on internally, right? That's what our brains are telling us. Like, I'm off on my own. I have to go fend for myself and pick the berries by myself. That's horrifying. But, you know, and there is such grief in that because I also think what we're grieving is like all these amazing memories and fun times. Like you said, How fun was it at the bar and going to football games and doing all the things together? That was amazing. And I think in holding on to those memories, our brains are sort of realizing, hey, that chapter is closing. And there's a lot of sadness in that. I'm thinking about a lot of my friends, especially the ones that I grew up with. They started getting married and having kids. And my life went in a different direction where I was still going out, whether or not I was drinking or not, but I was still going out and I was traveling and I didn't exactly have those friends to do those things with. And it was, you know, for me, it was a very much just acknowledging that that's there and not really making it mean that the friendship's over or that it went wrong. And sometimes it does mean that, you know, that the friendship is over. But I think what we're we're both getting at is this sort of like outgrowing friendship which is such I can't I'm excited to hear what you have to say about this because I think when we talk about outgrowing friendship it feels like someone's stuck and someone's left behind and I don't necessarily think that that's the right narrative like when I think of outgrowing I think of oh you're putting you're getting put into a different pot and there's sort of a judgment to the rest of the people or the rest of the plants if we're talking plant analogies that are still in the pots. It doesn't mean that they're growing less. It doesn't mean that their growth is stunted. It just means that they're probably in an environment where they're good. They don't need to shift or they don't need a smaller pot or a bigger pot or more sunlight or whatever it is.

SPEAKER_01 27:56

You literally just read my mind because that was the exact direction that I was going to go. We don't shame the plants like, oh, my gosh, you need to fit in this pot. Like, you need to grow in this pot. I'm going to keep watering you in this pot. Like, we don't even work that way. If you're into gardening, if you're into, you know, seeing something grow, you never expect it to always grow in the same place. And yet with friendship, it is our own minds as people. We have put it in this very comfortable box that we can digest it in. And we say... This is where you are. This is what our friendship looks like. This is what it is. And then if it changes and I don't know, then that's disruptive. And then I have to deal with that grief and that loss. And instead of doing that, I'm just going to keep it in this box. And it's like, we don't, there's not anything else really that we expect to stay the same. Like even when thinking about moving, we don't always intend to live in the same place. Like none of us, I don't know many people that still live in their childhood home. Like, I'd be really impressed, but I don't know many people that do. Even jobs. Like, we don't expect to be in a sales role forever or expect to, you know, work in retail forever or whatever the case may be. We don't box ourselves into these specific things. But when it comes to friendship, we... We almost, we're like, okay, I'm going to hold on to this so tightly so that I don't have to figure out what it means for this to change.

SPEAKER_00 29:37

Yeah. Oh, what it, figuring out what this means, that is, that's the, oh my gosh, that's the heart of it, I think. And we, we give it meaning, right? I think a lot of people feel, because thoughts feel so true and they're so automatic, it just feels like fact. So often it feels like, Yeah, this is just it. The friendship ended. It's over. There was a disconnect. There was a fallout. And I think in our society, and just as I'm working with people, as much as I can offer to rewrite this idea of failure for people, I want to. I think when we talk about divorce, when we talk about friendship breakups, our society says, oh, you divorced? You failed. You did something wrong. Right. Oh, you had a friendship breakup. You're still not friends with that person that you were friends with in eighth grade. Something went wrong. Or, oh, you had a friend that kind of came in and out of your life quickly. Right. then wow why are you moving through friends so quickly what's wrong with you or what's wrong with them or what happened there's always like a what happened and sometimes the what happened doesn't need to be drama filled sometimes it's just what happened is that someone evolved and moved to a new pot and we had a lot of fun together and we served each other in that moment and then you know we separated I think there's a lot of drama surrounding friendship breakups and I don't necessarily think that it needs to always be that something went terribly wrong. Why do you think we view it as a failure? I think just so many... Society is the short answer. Society. Society tells us that if we don't keep our relationships forever, if... if they are just stay the same, then you're doing right. I think the best way to explain it, I do think, is in the lens of marriage and divorce. To me, I'm like, if you're getting divorced, it's a hard thing. It's an unbelievably difficult thing to go through, depending on, obviously, the situation. But also, shouldn't you be honored and validated for recognizing this isn't working? This is stunting my growth. This is upsetting me emotionally. This is putting me in a vulnerable position. You know, there's so much narrative around, oh, she has her third divorce. I remember seeing when Taylor Swift started dating, you the football player, his name is escaping me. Travis. Yes, Travis. When they started dating, I was randomly scrolling on Facebook and there was a clip and somebody said, oh, Travis, like, why do you think people are so excited about the two of you? And he said something like, you know, I think we're really grounded people. We're really people that care about relationships and she's such a person that, you know, that people really look up to for a And the first comment with like the most likes on it was like, oh, people are looking up to her for relationships. She's been in like 10 relationships. And I'm like, that's wild to me that people have that narrative. But I understand it. I understand what they're thinking, right? There's this thinking of, oh, if you're dating around, there's something wrong with you. Oh, you can't keep somebody. When I I'm like, gosh, dating around, how else would you learn about yourself and evolve and grow? Every relationship we're in is a mirror, is an opportunity for us to look at something and to grow and learn more about ourselves. We just can't do it in isolation. This is why, to me, relationships are so, so valuable and important because, you know, I think when we had first talked, you had mentioned we live in such an individualistic society and, you It's just the reality is like, we have to do this together. And we're kind of, you know, helping each other evolve. And sometimes I think, oh, my gosh, what is she supposed to do? Just date one person and be like, oh, that's it. Our relationships are always teaching us something. And obviously, I'm talking about this in the lens of romantic relationships. But it's the same with friendship. It's not like we're trying to run through a million people and pick out the best one and be like, oh, that friendship didn't work. Nope. I'm looking for the best friend ever. And you're not, it's not about just like dropping people or using people. It's just about moving through life and getting to know people and seeing what fits and, and hopefully causing as little harm as you can and, and going through life that way.

SPEAKER_01 34:54

I feel like we have like another episode on marriage. I was about to tail into that, but I'm like, I'll save that for another day. But yeah, yeah I think even as we we go through these friendships and it's like the moral high ground is you have friendships since you were two oh we've been friends forever and they've seen me grow through all these seasons and phases and it's like that's great and I was talking like to somebody the other day and I was like I don't know what I would talk about people from with talk about with people from elementary school like that was so long ago what we had in common was what we ate for lunch and like our favorite subject Like, that's so different than where I am now. And so... We often, I think we have, I think it's a, maybe it's a very Western idea. Like we, the idea of building something, the idea of it started from its ground roots and that we put in the work to build it and get it to where it needs to be versus why not just meet people where you are in the same time that you are there, you know, in that place. It's like, yeah. We can have these friendships and we can maintain them in, you know, this capacity of what they look like, whether in middle school or elementary school. But what if we just allowed ourselves this space to meet friends that are in alignment with where we are right now, regardless of when that time is?

SPEAKER_00 36:24

Oh, my gosh. I hope people just like hear what you just said, because that's it. It's just to me, the true root of all relationship friendships, friendship, and otherwise is letting people be exactly who they are in the moment, exactly where they are. It gives you freedom. It gives them freedom. And it's, you know, we talk so much, I think, in our society about like being authentic, being our authentic self to allow other people to be who they authentically are, allows you to be who you authentically are. And that's the rhythm, right? It's just, that's the beauty of it, I think. Yeah. Another thing that you just said that I think is really important to tune into is this idea of like friendship from elementary or middle school. I actually feel so lucky that I actually have three friends from, I would say elementary school, one middle school. There's four of us. So we have had over a 20 year friendship at this point. And I just want to say for people that, you know, I think it is idealized, right? It's like, oh my gosh, how amazing is that and what do you guys also still have in common because we we when we met you know it was oh my gosh I have a crush on this boy and they were like so do I and that was our middle school experience you know I just want to say that what while we do have this beautiful friendship that I'm so unbelievably thankful for what people aren't seeing is the trajectory of that friendship I actually think um these friends, although I have been friends with them for a really long time, I don't think there were parts in high school or middle school where like they were my absolute best friend and that we were calling each other every day. We were always kind of friends throughout different phases, right? And like during college, it wasn't like I'm going to their college and they're coming to mine. It was, you know, there were just, we just moved in and out in such a smooth way. It doesn't mean that we were attached at the hip every single second on this journey. I think there were just ebbs and flows in the relationship. And there were times where we did argue and I thought, hey, maybe this friendship is not forever. And it's time to let this go because there's a lot of drama and there was distance and then there was closeness. And here we are today and we are still friends and they are at very different life stages. And two of them are across the country and one of them is actually 20 minutes away from me and I don't even see her that often. But At the end of the day, it's like the friendship is there because there are roots that are so grounded, that are so deeply grounded. And we also have very much, I'm sort of calling this like an invisible link where it's like our lives are very different, right? But we also have that sort of playfulness that we're all that like tie us all together you know where we'll be like what are we wearing right now to go out or like like whether it's fashion or it's just sort of some something outside of our everyday lives of like dating or or their husbands or their babies or career or whatever it's like the playfulness of the relationship that I can text them and be like oh my gosh did everyone see this movie it's very weird like we'd like the sex same kind of pop culture or whatever it is and I could probably have an entire podcast episode about like finding that invisible link because it's the playfulness it's like being able to

SPEAKER_01 40:08

just

SPEAKER_00 40:09

talk to a friend about nothing and I'm like there's weight to kind of that

SPEAKER_01 40:16

Absolutely. I'm like mentally recording this and you just spoke to something that I have never been able to put into words is the trajectory of friendship. Just because it looks like this today, it does not mean it always looked like that. And just this past weekend, I literally flew to Charlotte for my friend's wedding reception. I hadn't seen her in five years. We maintain our communication most of the time. I've known her, though, for almost 12, 13 years. We talk about nothing in the sense we catch up, we share the big milestones in each other's lives. Again, it's so deeply rooted and... Something that cannot be described or explained. And she's been international for the last couple of years. So knowing that there was an opportunity to celebrate her and see her, I was like, yes, I will be there. I will hop on a plane if I need to. And also, I mean, then it all just ties together and speaks to how special friendship can be. How special friendship of any... capacity of any within in any umbrella they're all special and so valuable in so many ways

SPEAKER_00 41:41

I love that I think when when you were when you were moving through that when you when you saw them were you like oh this is different or did you have because sometimes when I'm in this situation I'm thinking I'm I'm both thinking oh my god this is so different and oh my god this is so the same we're still we have that same bond and same connection did you feel that

SPEAKER_01 42:01

oh my goodness it was still the same Again, so deeply rooted in something that wasn't, isn't material or like external. I like saw her and I was like, wow. It felt like I saw her yesterday and it was just so special to be able to celebrate her and to know that it is so beautiful to have friendships that have seen you through seasons. And while, you know, when we worked together and when we, because we were camp counselors together and we went through that experience together, our friendship looked very different then than it does now. Now we're both adults. Now we're both in committed relationships and we're both now And so, of course, the priorities shift, but being able to still celebrate one another is such a gift.

SPEAKER_00 42:54

Oh, it really is. And I think what you're acknowledging, too, is just that there are... relationships just evolve as they do. You know, they evolve in a way that I think the distance, I want to like acknowledge the distance for a little because I think that to me in my friendship breakups or things that have come between me and friends, it's always been distance, both physically and emotional distance, right? And I think the emotional distance, what I've learned over time is not a bad thing. Sometimes giving a friend space is the most loving thing you can do i think where it goes wrong is when sort of what you were talking about earlier is that when there's like a clear conflict something maybe has gone wrong or there's been like you know you go out and you have a disagreement and then after that the wind starts to shift yeah i think there's that right and then there's also sort of just like an unspoken hey things have changed here and and this is starting to look different so um space is not necessarily a bad thing. And I think space is probably the thing that allowed me to have these friendships for so long to build this everlasting friendship with certain people. And, um, I, you know, like I said, there have been really turbulent times within this friendship where I thought, Hey, this, you know, it's too much drama. This isn't going to work going back to my, my comment about drama, but, um, you know, it, it all shook out. It all, unfolded. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:35

And we as people get to say, okay, this is too much. Like we get to tap out, we get to preserve ourselves and, you know, just to kind of round out this amazing, like I'm mind blown. This amazing conversation, it is, Ultimately, we do get to decide when enough is enough, when it becomes dramatic, when it becomes. You know, all consuming, even when it becomes mentally consuming, when it it just becomes much more challenging to preserve the relationship than to call the relationship quits it.

UNKNOWN 45:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:20

we give each other both, like you give both parties the space to say, we did the best we can, we did the best we could, wish you well and then move on and again the moral the failing piece the the fear of change the fear of the unknown all of these things are the reasons I think as well as other reasons we maybe didn't even get to of why they become so turbulent and why they just feel so challenging it's like What if we just allowed both of us the grace to say, I wish you the best and it's okay that it is not in our friendship?

SPEAKER_00 46:04

Yeah. There is something so important about, this is something that I, a phrase that I use when I'm coaching, but cleaning up your thoughts about somebody. I think when we are in conflict or when something disrupts the friendship, there's a lot of negative, there is a lot of negativity why is she doing that why is I don't understand this I don't understand that she's being this way and again it's all opinion it's all probably emotionally driven and I think our job is to sit with those feelings to process through that those are ours to feel and ours to own and you know to acknowledge that we can't control other people you know and once you clean up those thoughts and and you're able to say hey this is this is this person here's the other side of this coin I love this person I have so I've had so much fun with them I appreciate them for this when kind of turn on the gratitude side of things or the lighter side of things and you know this is such a process to go through all the emotions that come up with this but when you can get to that place and still you can say goodbye to a friend but loving them for is such a beautiful thing. When you can get to that place and be like, gosh, I love that person. I'm so thankful that they came into my life. It's a different feeling and a different experience. And I think anybody can get there.

SPEAKER_01 48:06

Yeah, it's allowing yourself the space to move through the emotions, the feelings of abandonment, feeling of resentment, feeling of frustration, anger, the feeling of grief, loss, sadness, and then coming. I mean, I very much agree. degree there are like friendships that I don't have anymore that I am very much loving them from afar and even when I think about oh do I like reach out to this person and let them know it's like no I don't need to like I am in a space and I am at peace to be able to say I loved the friendship for what it was and the lessons that it taught and I do wish them the best from over here and that that level of acceptance is such a peaceful place to be in. And it's also giving yourself that permission to feel the very uncomfortable feelings that come with the end of a friendship.

SPEAKER_00 49:05

Oh, 100%. I co-sign on everything that you just said. It is about finding peace within the dynamic.

UNKNOWN 49:16

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:17

You know, I know we could probably go in for another three days. For sure. It was so amazing talking to you. I have learned so much from you and I cannot wait for your show. I cannot wait for, you know, everything. And definitely, you know, thank you so much for taking the time out.

SPEAKER_00 49:38

Of course. This was such a, I knew when we met that this conversation would just flow. I think we covered so many great topics and things that people really really feel and and experience so i'm so thankful to to have you uh have this conversation with you and and looking forward to it seems like we have so much to talk about so until the next time yes till the next time

SPEAKER_01 50:02

you