PLAY As a Content Strategy: Creativity, Going to Therapy, and Challenging Professional Standards with Deana Bianco

In this expansive, honest conversation, Jazz sits down with therapist, podcaster, and pop-culture connoisseur Deana Bianco to unpack what it truly means to build trust, creativity, and community in the age of social media. From tattoos and vintage tees to Lady Gaga, Tyler, the Creator, and Drag Race, this episode explores how authenticity—not perfection—is what makes people feel safe enough to connect.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:04

I'm so excited for my guest today, Deanna Bianco. I have been on her podcast. So, what brings you to therapy? And I am so excited to have her in the guest seat today. We are gonna talk pop culture. We're gonna talk being in like the social media space as therapists. She has had a previous podcasting journey through the pop culture scene with Bravo, and now she's venturing into a new beast, new territory. And so we are just gonna new experts, right?

SPEAKER_00 0:40

New experts. They're new. You know, or maybe they do from Vanderpump. Did you watch Vanderpump? I stopped. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 0:52

After Stassi. Anyway, I'm not.

SPEAKER_00 0:54

I was a Stossy girl. And not to bring it up, but I guess I just took it from, you know, we're gonna talk about mental health and pop culture. And I was just like, oh no, we're gonna just talk about pop culture. So as we were, as we were. So what has brought you to the therapy space? So I have been almost a lifer in therapy. I can honestly say therapy saved my life. And I always explain it as folks, there's a lot of folks out there that are born with a compass. And when you grow up, your caregivers like facilitate the compass, help build it, help you like see which way is north on the compass, help you figure out how to navigate with it. And I didn't receive those skills, let alone a compass, when I was a child and in my upbringing. And so when I was 18, I moved to New York City and I started school there and had deviant behavior that I carried from high school and got my ass in therapy, was forced to go into therapy for certain reasons, and was fortunate enough to have therapists that guided me and built my compass with me and let me figure out which way is north. And when I thought west was north, they pointed me towards north. And yeah, and so I went to school, I went to NYU journalism school. So that was my craft. And I graduated with a journalism degree, and I started off in the world in fashion and music, so working for like fashion publications and covering like music, beauty, travel, and all the things. And so I did that in New York, and I felt very fulfilled. It was very taxing though, because I was doing one of those New York City work things where you're working 60 hours a week. And so when I was pregnant, I started freelance writing because I was looking to because journalism has pretty much changed and died over the year. And then I reevaluated what I wanted to do and what I wanted to write about. And I started writing about mental health topics, and I decided that I wanted to hold space for people rather than interviewing them and sharing their stories. I wanted to go ahead and hold space for them like other people have held space for me.

SPEAKER_01 3:33

I feel like there are so many therapists that can relate to experiencing prior deviant behavior and then pivoting into not pivoting into therapy, but being able to use that and support other people. And because we have like a level of professionalism that we do like to maintain, when a lot of therapists say they get it, like a lot of us genuinely get it. Like we have been in the trenches, we have done it, we have made poor mistakes, and we are only here to support you and making the most aligned choices for yourself.

SPEAKER_00 4:11

100%. And I think that's the interesting thing is you know, we are people behind the therapy sessions and behind the space that we hold, behind the skills that we provide. And I think I also people can tell, I think my clients that I have lived a life because I think there's this way of dressing as a therapist, or maybe I'm thinking old school, and I've been wearing vintage t-shirts since I'm 18. So I'm 26 years now deep. And so I have just like a stack of them, and I wear that like that's my uniform, and I have tattoos, and they know I've lived in Brooklyn and all the things, and so I'm not saying, oh, I've done this, I've participated in this and all the things, but I think and maybe this is a biased way of looking. I think by looking at me, I have hand tattoos, like you can tell probably that I've lived a life, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:13

Those identifiers that we don't necessarily have to explain. Like, tattoos? Well, obviously, you have tattoos. I have tattoos. I'm not, you won't catch me really like in the cardigan, the typical like yeah, cardigan therapist. So I'll sometimes show up in a session like this. I'm wearing a sweatshirt and hat for those who can't see. I also cuss in session, and I will say when my clients tell me things, they're like some I get a lot of folks who are like, you're the first person that hasn't flinched or hasn't like made a face, or they can tell that they are being judged in a way. There's a level of acceptance that I'm so grateful I've offered that it's genuine, that I'm not like questioning their morality or anything. And I think that in itself identifies like a level of openness, understanding, and potentially a life lived before joining the therapy seat.

SPEAKER_00 6:18

Sure. And I hope in 2025 therapists aren't flinching. And I'm sure I say that, and the stories I hear and the stories I've experienced because I've been through therapists, I could probably count them on two hands and more. Yeah, I've been around the ringer with therapists, with treatment stuff, and so both being in treatment and working in treatment. So I know the different cast of characters that work at these places and good, bad, everything in between. And just people think they go into this profession for a lot of different reasons. And you and I've touched upon that a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 7:03

Yeah. For I mean, whether it's to support folks who have shared lived experiences, or sometimes we correct maybe like having a caregiver or a family member who struggled with their mental health and being able to rewrite that narrative. But I want to talk about even just the presence of therapists on social media and how much of a it's still a pretty contentious topic. Like I'll scroll on LinkedIn and there is a slew of therapists who uh make comments on well, not everyone's savvy with a computer, not everyone wants to dance in front of a ring light. It's very reductionist takes. And I I just don't know how we got there.

SPEAKER_00 7:56

Explain it more. I want to hear, I want to see the full picture. Like I want you to paint the picture for me.

SPEAKER_01 8:02

So I this is a lot of the discourse that I'll typically see on LinkedIn, or threads, therapists, it unethical, or and then these are therapists talking about other therapists, just vaguely. I've seen not everyone is comfortable like dancing on compute on the computer, talking about mental health. We are minimizing the profession by showing up online. And so I'm interested if you've seen those dialogues, those discourses, what are your thoughts, and if you've ever engaged in them yourself.

SPEAKER_00 8:38

Yeah, I think that's really interesting. And just to point out that you and I, and the folks that listen are listening, understand that everyone right now has an opinion about everything. And we judge before we discuss, and we feel like we have to have an opinion about things that really just can exist. And of course, there's I'm sure therapists out there exploiting something, whatever, whatever. And of course, if you're like HIPAA violation or exploiting something, I'm not going to support that. And that being said, is I think the older I get, my lens is it's very much transformed since I was younger. I feel that I don't go on LinkedIn, I go on social media. So I have like you, and I feel like there's a crew of therapists of we all know each other and we all comment on our things, and we're like, yes, go wash your face, you know, heart this, you're doing an interview. And to be honest, I'm at the point in my life because I did cover the news for so long, and my central nervous system is very, I know what elevates it. And since I'm not covering people in that way and going out and covering news stories about social media or that subject about therapists, I really just focus my attention on folks like you and folks within our therapist community that are living out loud. Because I think the thing that a lot of us teach our clients is authenticity. And if authenticity lies in I'm gonna do a silly dance, so right now the trend for folks that aren't in therapy and on social media right now is to do this thing. And I don't know if you've seen it, but it's always in my feed with folks I follow of, you know, if someone cancels, you're crying, and then you just like kind of shake your head and you're not bothered. And it's not offending anyone. Like, how is that offending? It's a trend right now, and everyone's doing their thing on it. It might not be something I'm doing, but it's not offending anyone. Does that make sense? And so when we are always the first to put our pitchforks, grab our pitchforks in march to the castle. And you and I have discussed, and we talk with our clients about how much resources and unpaid emotional labor do we want to put into the world? And focusing on if a social media therapist does the trend of boo-hooing and then doesn't care because a client ghosts them or whatever, who cares? Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_01 11:37

Yeah, I it allows for authenticity. And what I typically will respond is that it allows therapists to build trust in a completely different way.

SPEAKER_00 11:48

That's a really good point. Go on about that.

SPEAKER_01 11:50

And so when we think about building trust 10 years ago, it's like, okay, who has the most credentials behind their name? Who has the most letters? Who has these certifications and these trainings? A lot of those trainings are inaccessible. They're extremely expensive, especially for newer clinicians. Some are like hard to get into, like they're a lottery. And so being able to present your personality, you're being able to speak to a specific problem that a client may be having, and the client gets to look at the content and say, oh wow, great, they can help me. Oh wow, they understand what I'm going through and they can support me. And being able to build trust based on values, based on how we're showing up online, that that breaks down such a huge barrier for what typically prevents people from looking for therapists. Because when we think about psychology today, it's all of these profiles and maybe 80% of them are full or not responding, are booked out, are inactive. Versus like social media, when you see someone who's consistently posting, who is showing up, who is speaking to what is relevant, you know that they're hopefully going to be responsive because you see that they are active in their work, in their practice. You have an understanding of what you're gonna get from them.

SPEAKER_00 13:18

Yeah. And that's the thing is, and there can be everything, right? There's inclusivity in the people that want to go on social media and do what you're saying. And you and I talked about that because on my podcasts. And I think the thing that I was inspired to is I started just putting up shorts about my interviews. And I think it's interesting because coming from the journalism world in the reporting where I was writing, I wasn't used to being in front of a screen or whatever. And I think watching folks like you open the door, it opens the door for other people to walk through in whatever capacity that we are. Whether we're gonna post like a real drag race reel that has to do with mental health, whether we're gonna post part of our podcasts, whatever it is. And so there is just so much in the world to focus on about that people are misstepping, if we can even call it that. I just don't understand the time and the energy to put into folks that are doing self-expression online, if we can call it. And like you said, showing what they can offer and their values. And my goal is actually to be more like jazz, you know, is to open the door of this is more about me because I work with so many creatives. That's kind of one of my specialties and my main specialties is I work with folks that are creative and they want to unlatch or push up against the negative core beliefs or trauma that prevented them from making an album, painting this, getting in touch with playing an instrument, whatever. And like you're saying, it could only benefit me if I talk about, you know, go online and talk about my experience with this stuff.

SPEAKER_01 15:24

I mean, firstly, you are one of the coolest people that I have met online.

SPEAKER_00 15:30

Yes, you are my sweetie baby. And so my question for you is why can't we take compliments as therapists? You know, we teach, we teach in the room, we say let it land, and I'm gonna let it land. We are going to be examples because you are my I love watching you, and that's the thing is like I think people don't understand is I you and I know each other through this thing, and you told me you've made other relationships in my podcast, but I feel like I could message you, and I think the connection of where we are with social media, where we are and with connection is my realm of mental health specialists is not just in my immediate physical community. You all are out there, and you all are accessible. Do you know what I mean? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:30

I it has made the work more fulfilling, it's made the work so much more fun. I have experienced less burnout than I would say like when I was in like my internships, because I feel so connected and anchored to a community beyond what is like physically available to me. And that's I've seen you visit some person.

SPEAKER_00 16:54

It brings me joy watching that through a screen, as strange as it sounds. Why? I think it's because I think some of us have always felt like outliers. And so I think that's why we sometimes get into professions like this or the arts, right? Because we feel different. And when I was younger, I dressed weird or whatever, and I moved to New York City and I found my outliers and found community and found my people. And when I moved to Colorado, I feel like an outlier still. And I stand in it and have community here, and I love everyone. And I'm still known as the New Yorker who drops the F bombs, who wears like red lipstick, who doesn't give a fuck, which I don't give a fuck, you know, and that sounds really negative. But, you know, they're like, oh, Deanna's gonna bring like the New York girl. And it's like, of course I am, but I don't know. It just still makes me feel like an outlier. And I think in the sense of creating community for me and what we teach folks in sessions and we hold space or for is we know when we isolate, we disintegrate inside, we rot inside. I'm not convinced. I've talked to a lot of folks in session outside of session of I don't need community, I'm here in my room and whatever. Maybe there's like a 0.05 percentage that can thrive like that. Community is essential. And the fact that I feel like I'm and you could be like, you're not a part of my community, girl, but like the fact that I feel like I'm a part of your community, and then I see you meeting someone else that I follow them, and it is this, and I don't know if it's just like I am following people and they're following me, and we have our community, and I know it's extensive, it just brings me joy, and especially when I'm have back-to-back sessions and I have 10 minutes to go to the bathroom, eat my food, and I just need to fart the F out. And I open Instagram, and there's Jazz washing her face and telling me the haps, you know, and what's going down. And I'm picking up on whatever you're throwing down, and and that brings me joy because it's like, okay, you all know what I'm going through, and I'm witnessing you go doing what you're doing.

SPEAKER_01 19:30

So it sounds like I gotta make a fight.

SPEAKER_00 19:33

Well, I think like jazz, like I think it's we need to, you know, we need to also, it's like we just boost each other.

SPEAKER_01 19:40

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 19:41

We have a community of folks, it doesn't mean mean fear, female, non binary, whatever, of we want to see each other succeed. And I think there are social media communities because I've covered them and in journalism and I've talked to different been a part of different. Communities, and that's not always the case. That that we could just go off on a day of podcasts about that, you know, whether it's the sisterhood, whether it's mental health people help helping other mental health people, it is not a guarantee.

SPEAKER_01 20:18

So much competition.

SPEAKER_00 20:20

And I'm like Yes, and it's like there's room for all of us, and we all provide these unique things. And to can I circle back? This is the journalist in me bringing the story back. This is why the opportunity to go online and highlight these things.

SPEAKER_01 20:37

What blocks you from showing up online sometimes, though? Because you you show a lot about your podcast and you have like meme kind of shorts or like videos of like drag race. You you incorporate a lot of the pop culture onto your social media, but I don't always see a lot of you. And I'm like, Yeah, you're so when I talk to you, you're so cool. And I'm sure there are other people who would feel the same way.

SPEAKER_00 21:06

Yes, and I'm actually gonna put, I have a viral not to toot my own horn, Katya Andragrace has this thing, and people are taking the audio of she sits down and she's wearing like a track suit, and she says something like, Before uh we get this discussion going, I wanna leave room to give you a compliment my outfit. And I actually want to throw it out to Jazz too to take that audio and do something with it. And I actually today created a video with it that I'm gonna post. And I think it is the thing of in journalism school, if you go to a good journalism school, which I don't think they exist, you're not supposed to see yourself in the article, you're supposed to highlight other people's stories and or highlight the store, the big story. And so that is part of the reason why I'm just inching my way forward. And I know I keep referencing our conversation. When you were just talking to me about you told me who you were before you started social media and you said who you were in grad school, and it just sounds so interesting about the evolution of now you're presenting yourself.

SPEAKER_01 22:19

It's given free it's freedom, and it sounds like within journalism too, you don't really see yourself in the narrative. You're telling other people the narrative, you are making sure you have the most informed perception of the narrative, but now you have the opportunity to place yourself in the art, you get to be the art, yes, and that's that is something that I am that I said, you know, I want to talk to you.

SPEAKER_00 22:46

I DM'd you and I was like, Yeah, I have stuff to talk to you about that you've influenced me by, and that's just one of them, and so it is this thing, and and of course we have our inner saboteur, right? Of whatever we do creatively, and that's the thing is like we gotta give these people credit. Unless you're a total narcissism. I'm narcissist, I'm not gonna give you credit for just showing up online and doing your thing because it does take guts, because everyone's always commenting on the thing that they don't do. You know, we we we download the song or we hear the song and we're commenting, oh well, it's not that great, or we're watching a performance, a concert performance, and we're critiquing it, and it's the whole thing of well, I don't see you getting up there and stepping up and even attempting to do that, but there's room the I say that and it's a yes and because there is room for all of us to create, and as uh I love to say is to play because what you're doing and I'm trying to do and folks are doing is we're playing. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, but you're already doing it on your podcast.

SPEAKER_01 24:03

Oh, sweetheart, you are the best. You're showing up on your podcast, and I will I will say, as someone who also like podcasts, I feel like it's easier to show up in this space anymore because there's some more intentionality behind long form content, and so people that are seeking it out are like interested, they're curious, they want to listen. There isn't a lot of space for like back and forth versus with short form content. People can take it however it is up for interpretation sometimes, and I do have to to engage a bit more actively within short form, but I also treat it very differently than I treat podcasting.

SPEAKER_00 24:49

So tell me more, because let's dig into I sound like because it's up, it's I want this discussion to be, you know, we we established before this because we're we're just like we have really not to toot our harn. We have good chemistry when we talk back and forth, right? What do you tell your, or I'm sure I don't know if it exists, what do you tell your intersepateur when you're like, I'm gonna do this thing, I'm gonna try it out online, I'm going to, you know, it's the first washing the face, it's the first day in the life of a therapist. What is the negative cognition or the intersepateur saying to you? And how do you address it and silence it?

SPEAKER_01 25:25

Oh my gosh. I think when I was doing like my first videos, I'm like, nobody cares what I have to say. Like, what do I have to add to the conversation? But I kept doing it because there were people who were interested. But I will say, even when it was crickets, like there was no one responding, there was no engagement, there was no feedback, I felt motivated to see something grow, to maybe trust this nudge that like I'm maybe creating something differently and I want to keep going. I want to see this through. And so now being in a space where there is more engagement, there is people are interested, like people are interacting with what I'm putting out there. I I recognize I do, I maybe do have something to add to the conversation. And I work really hard to not be redundant, I work really hard to not add fuel to what's already being fired. But we all have our own lived experience, and that lived experience will resonate with somebody, and that perspective may not be out there because if we're all living with the same idea that that story is already being told, then we're just we're just siloing our own story.

SPEAKER_00 26:48

That's a really good point. Yeah, that's that's and I think it's just it's what I try to tell people in session, right? Because people like people hear an album and say, like if you're trying to create a song and they're like, not gonna be, I don't know, Radiohead or something like that. And Radiohead wasn't even Radiohead when they first picked up their instruments. And think what you want about Radiohead, anyone. Like, I just posted a picture about Frank Ocean. Frank Ocean to me is just he to me from afar, I do not know him, and Tyler the creator. Tyler, I'll just talk about Tyler. Tyler looks like he lives and breathes creativity, he is in his own lane. Yeah, I always use him and David Bowie as examples um during session. Is there are paths out there that people create, for example, and I know I keep bringing this up the social media of this is how I feel when clients don't show up or ghost me, and then doing that, and then doing that. And that is the path that someone took a machete in the jungle and just carved it, right? And they just walk, walk, walk, so so others can walk down. And when we're looking at Tyler the Creator and David Bowie, they knew those paths were open, and you know, it's the footpath is not even single track. I'm a trail runner, so that's why I'm using that lingo, but it was like four people at wide. And Tyler just looks at it, in my opinion, and I don't think anyone can argue with this, is just like I probably started with like a McDonald's plastic knife and was like, this is all I have, and I'm gonna just start carving. And then he picks up the next tool, and then the next tool, and then the next tool, and he then it creatively, creativity, uh he just carves his own path. And for some of us, being creative, that is the goal. Who do you look up to creatively like that?

SPEAKER_01 28:51

I have actually been going back to listening on my morning walks. I've been going back and listening to like early 2000s pop. I was a big fan of Lady Gaga, like right, paparazzi VMA's performance, amazing. Marina and the Diamonds. I've been listening to her earlier albums. They are because they were so it was like something you couldn't reach. And Marina is just so poetic in the the art that she creates. And she actually did a recent talk where she was like, I don't think artists should be content creators, in the sense that like creating this, not only creating the separation, but also staying connected to your art. I actually am trying to get into the habit of consuming less so that I can be more creative. Because I I find myself scrolling, and we all love a good trend to reach a new audience, but trends don't build an audience.

SPEAKER_00 29:55

Yeah, and I hope you don't you're not judging me that I keep bringing that trend up. No, I'm not I'm not participating in it, and I feel bad that because I know there's folks listening and being like I've done it, I've already done the trend. Okay, okay, okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:08

I've done I trends are great for reaching new audiences and getting those numbers. It's I mean, it's why I participate in them, but it's not what builds an audience, it's not what allows people to stay. And so if I want to continue honoring that creativity for myself and honoring like, okay, what is the what is the journey that I'm taking with my creativity? I need to consume less. And that's not to say that I'm not like I have there's so many uh people that I look to on like the social media space. I love not your average therapist, Kristen Gingrich, I love LEL Therapy, Laura Crusoe, um who have been doing this before and they just show up so unapologetically themselves as therapists. And every I look at a video and sometimes I go, if I can get one step like closer to that in my own way, right?

SPEAKER_00 31:10

That'll feel authentic. It's so interesting because I think it's because I covered the arts, is my feed is of course, you all like my therapists, social media friends, and it's all art, and that inspires me. You know what I mean? Like I'll I'll put in my stories like something like an art piece or just an old photo, or you know, especially music, of course, inspires me. But it is really, I know we shouldn't really look back and sit in the past, however, the past is the original copy, or it can be like Gaga is to what has spurred off of it. Is that what I'm hearing of like listening? And it's interesting because Gaga, not to toot my own horn, but just to talk about a little bit about my journey, is she used to create music and on the Lower East side. And I used to work on the Lower East side and lived in Williamsburg when this whole movement was happening. And there was this thing called like electroclash that was going on in these, like you could either see it at a small venue or just a medium-sized venue, or you could see it because there was a lot of abandoned buildings in Williamsburg. It wasn't the Williamsburg that everyone knows. It was abandoned buildings, and you could live there for cheap, and it was a little dangerous. And so you'd see these like electro clash, like really DIY bands that were performing and doing like just experimenting with gender, with experimenting with style and sound. And the thing that Gaga did that as someone who was in that movement and cover like writing about it and saw it, is she was so able to observe, it seems like, and I don't want to speak to her, take it in, restitch it, like if it was like a ball of yarn, stitch it up and make this couture sweater out of it. And I think that's what you're saying, because I I don't know Gaga, uh her music that much. I know everyone can judge me, but you I know she is about she's pure creativity, and she she liked the Marina Brahmavich stuff where she was doing the performance art with the one of the most famous performance artists of all time, and uh anyway, talking about her when she was creating an album, she's able to look at the originals and then make it so opulent and original in itself, that is its own form of creativity.

SPEAKER_01 33:51

Yeah, that's again early Gaga, she was so resourceful. And if she could find a stage, she was singing on it, and looking back at her early days, looking back at ear early Marina's days, it's like you said, bringing it back to the machete or whatever the tool may be is I'm gonna create a space for myself right now, and I'm just gonna keep hacking at it. I'm gonna keep working at it until I feel closer and closer to what feels authentic. And the truth is that it will always change. That's why you're constantly, it is a constant journey, allowing yourself that permission to evolve and grow in your creativity. Gaga started with, I mean, we had just dance, we had paparazzi, and now we're more at Abercadabra, and she's blending that kind of bad romance art pop.

SPEAKER_00 34:51

Now she's copying herself. Like that's that's when it's like we're in the funhouse now. If you don't know, I'm you know what I mean. No, yes, we're in Gaga's funhouse, right? Where it's where everything is just reflection of her rather than going into the other funhouse where she's picking the Marina Abramovic, where she's picking the Electro Clash, where she you're seeing her perform. I remember watching her, and it was just a morning like show on in New York City, and she's just literally in her bubbles purple suit, and she's just on the piano. And the thing that I think we can learn from what you were talking about, and I'll talk about my experience in Gaga, is doors are gonna slam in your face, and people aren't prep either prepared or cannot take it, or a combination of both. And I think it's important to admit that when we create, and I'll say this with I've worked months on an article and interviewed, and it's perfect, and then I hand it in and they say, do it all over again. And that's part of creating in the space. And we're all stepping up to the space and being like, I'm not gonna respect everyone's input, but I know that things are gonna be received, and I know I'm just gonna be throwing it to the outfield. And it's like you said, you create and you're not getting the viewers, people are latching on to this, they're not latching on to that. You follow a trend people are latching on and liking, and then you try to do your own thing. And then I think also with Gaga and Tyler is they've built a trust in us to trust their creativity. Because when we follow an artist, we're taken into their world, and their world hopefully is one that challenges us, that holds us in that space, and that has the ability to, if we want to, transform us in a positive manner. And I think that's what Gaga, because I mean, she she created a revolution. There's no doubt about that. And she deserves all the accolades. I think she even deserves more with what she's done. And Tyler, too. And and there's something to learn from that. Not that we're all gonna be Tyler and not that we're gonna all be Gaga, but what space do we create in this space?

SPEAKER_01 37:30

And we truly just brought this back to the beginning of authenticity and building trust as therapists creatively.

SPEAKER_00 37:38

Wow, yes, there you go. Girl, you know how when you end the session and you're just like you kind of are talking and you're like, oh my gosh, I'm bringing it together. And you know what I mean? And you're hoping that you're inspiring, like not yourself, because that's not what therapy is for a therapist, but you're like, I hope they appreciate how I drew the story and brought it full circle.

SPEAKER_01 38:01

I'm like, I hope like we can appreciate how we just tied this together. Exactly. But it it goes back to building trust and whether it's your clients, whether it is people engaging with your content, being able to trust the process of how you're showing up and trusting that authenticity and resonating with it and reaching out and scheduling a conversation and moving forward. But that is the beauty of social media and being able to show up in that space.

SPEAKER_00 38:32

And what you're watching is sometimes exceptional, like gaga. And exceptional takes work, hard work, rejection, uh, experimentation, and the ability to just in that rejection continue to march forward, just continue, continue. And and like we talked about, it is about recognizing because we're quick to judge, and we don't sometimes we're not looking at the intention, the words behind the judgment. And what it is is are you judging because you're jealous? Are you judging because you don't get it? And that's another thing with art, just because I'm a huge Yoko Ono fan, and there's this really great book that was put out, Best Book of 2025, by David Chef, who wrote Beautiful Boy. If anyone knows that book about his son, his son's addiction. And anyway, he's a really famous writer. He is Yoko Ono's best friend and highlights all these qualities that she brought to the art space. And I'm told more so than not, and it's I think some of it has to do with racism and uh anti female stuff, that yes, her music is very hard to digest in the sense it is can sound abrasive, it can sound whatever. But it's like Duchamp. I'm gonna bring Duchamp in. Duchamp's urinal, which he just put a urinal on, you know, and that was the art. That was the art. And just because I don't understand it doesn't mean I can't love it. I can sit in that space with Yoko Ono and just sit in confusion and let the confusion challenge me and go on that journey.

SPEAKER_01 40:24

Yeah. Because it's, I mean, it's an evolving one. Right. It is. It may not resonate to you today, and maybe five years later, it'll you'll be like, wow, I'm really moved by that. That's right. That's what's gonna inspire me. And I think that's what I love about art. It always is timeless.

SPEAKER_00 40:44

It is. And another artist that I'll shout out is my favorite, is Robert Rosenberg. He is a New York City, he's dead. He was in New York City, but he was so poor. He took he because you know, people throw out trash in New York City. I'm sure in DC they do the same thing, and you just can take it and very caution tales because bed bugs are everywhere right now in New York City. But he would just take it and create sculptures out of it. And so he his most famous one is called Bed. And basically he took his bed and he painted it. And he was making this is a good example of he was a creative person who was making do with what was in his means. And it's the same thing with Instagram. You have access to Instagram, so you're gonna create. And now he's one of the like his art is in the MoMA. You it's priceless, but it is just what he had found on the street, put together into a sculpture. It's all accessible. That's what I try to teach people. Like play is accessible, play is play is right in front of us. We can't grow out of it, and play is creativity, and so guys, let's keep guys and girls and everything, let's keep playing.

SPEAKER_01 42:04

Deanna, I could talk to you all afternoon.

SPEAKER_00 42:06

Oh my yeah, I'm not sure where this conversation went or if it went to the spot where you thought, you know, I the most important thing is we got to talk about pop culture.

SPEAKER_01 42:15

We got to talk about pop culture. I think that's so interesting.

SPEAKER_00 42:19

Yeah, and again, I just always want to promote play. And jazz, you're playing, I'm playing in my own way online, play in podcasting. And that's what do you feel like jazz? And I know we need to wrap up, but do you feel like people are like, well, how could you start a podcast? And it's like, I turn on my computer. You it doesn't have to, and that's the thing is it doesn't have to be perfect because perfection doesn't exist, and it is what holds us back, it is what stops us from even trying. One step again, grab that knife, that McDonald's plastic knife that you found on the ground in the street, and just start carving a space. And when in doubt and it's uncomfortable, sit in the space that's carved for you, and then go back. And I think that's what you're talking about, you're doing because you did the trends, and you step into the trends, and then you step into your own space and you keep carving forward. Am I reading that right?

SPEAKER_01 43:22

Yeah, it's all about balance, it's an experimentation, like you said earlier. It's trying something, seeing if seeing what resonates out there, and what also resonates for me. Yeah, I think part of the creative process is like it has to energize us if we're gonna continue producing, and that's what brings out a lot of folks on socials and creation is like, are we producing for external validation? Are we truly like creating from like an intrinsic place of enjoyment?

SPEAKER_00 43:53

Right, exactly. And you can tell with the Tyler's and the Gagas, even though they are at the level that they are, and maybe it's just my wish for what they're doing, is they are creating on that of just trying to challenge yourself and just pushing boundaries and experimentation. And hopefully we can all get to the point where we're just comfortable with that machete, just walking forward and clearing the path for ourselves and maybe for folks behind us.

SPEAKER_01 44:32

Thank you so much for joining me today.

SPEAKER_00 44:35

Oh, Jazz, thank you so much. You are a bright light.