The Post-Birth Breakdown: Microbiomes, Breast Milk, and Stem Cells

Welcome back to Crunchy Stewardship! In Part 2 of our (unintentional) Pregnancy, Labor & Delivery series, we are looking closely at the medical decisions and physiological miracles that happen during and immediately after delivery.

If you have ever wondered what the actual differences are between vaginal births and C-sections when it comes to your baby's long-term health, this episode breaks it all down. We discuss how the physical squeeze of the birth canal prepares a newborn's lungs, the incredible science of "vaginal seeding" for the gut microbiome, and how a baby's saliva literally communicates with the mother's body during breastfeeding to create custom immune-boosting milk.

We also tackle the hard conversations about delivery room interventions: the great debate between natural tearing versus episiotomies, how to prevent tearing in the first place, and why you have to choose between delayed cord clamping and expensive cord blood banking. Whether you are prepping for your first baby or your fifth, we want to equip you to make these choices with confidence and faith over fear!

In this episode, you'll learn:

• Random Revelation: Where does fat actually go when you burn it? Chrissy shares the mind-blowing science of exhaling your fat as CO2!
• Vaginal Birth Benefits: How the birth canal physically squeezes fluid from a baby's lungs and "seeds" their delicate gut microbiome.
• Breast Milk Magic: How a baby's saliva sends signals to the mother's body to create custom antibodies for whatever illness they are fighting.
• C-Section Realities: Navigating major abdominal surgery recovery, prophylactic antibiotic exposure, and the emerging practice of vaginal swabbing for C-section babies.
• Tearing vs. Episiotomies: The pros and cons of both, plus our best tear-prevention tips (including perineal massage, warm compresses, and the "Silly Putty" analogy for slow, controlled pushing).
• The Umbilical Cord Debate: Why you can't have both delayed cord clamping and stem cell banking, and how to navigate the "what ifs" of medical emergencies with a faith-over-fear mindset.

Chapters: 

00:00 Early Morning Catch Up

01:25 Birth Topics Roadmap

03:29 Random Revelation: Fat Burning

08:06 Instagram Tangents Toddler Hacks

11:47 C Section Versus Vaginal Birth

17:44 Microbiome And Vaginal Seeding

23:54 Breast Milk Immune Training

27:42 C-Section Recovery Reality

29:41 Hospital Stay and Double Recovery

30:50 Antibiotics and Baby Microbiome

35:09 Pain Meds and Addiction Risk

38:45 Episiotomy Versus Tearing

43:52 Preventing Tears During Labor

49:39 Cord Clamping and Banking 

Remember, whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God (1 Corinthians 10:31). 

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Transcript

Speaker 0:03

Welcome to Crunchy Stewardship. I'm Chrissy Rombach.

Speaker 2 0:06

And I'm Katie Fiola Jones. We're cousins on a mission to honor God by stewarding our health spiritually, mentally, and physically.

Speaker 0:14

From ancestral nutrition and natural remedies, to biblical finance and holistic health, we are digging deep into how God intended us to live.

Speaker 3 0:22

So grab yourself a raw milk latte and join us as we unpack the ins and outs of crunchy stewardship

Katie 0:34

Good morning, Crunchy Stewardship listeners. It is another early morning that Chrissy and I are recording. It is, what, our second earliest podcast recording that we've ever done. And I don't know, this time around I'm more awake probably than last time, but for some reason I feel like I'm foggier than I was last time. And maybe that's because Wes rolled over and smacked me this morning and was like, "Hey, you have to record a podcast. Get up." And I was like, "Oh yeah, I forgot to set an alarm." We finally got blackout curtains for Malachi in his bedroom, and so he's been sleeping in a lot. And so right now it's 8:30 AM here in Michigan, and he is still asleep. so it's great, but he typically has been our alarm lately, waking up like at 7:00 or so. And since we got our blackout curtains, he isn't waking up as early because his room isn't flooded with sunshine in the morning. So it is kinda funny because it's-- he was my alarm, but now he's not because he's sleeping in later than I am typically, which is wonderful on a regular basis, 'cause most days I don't have to wake up to any kind of alarm. So I enjoy getting to sleep in as Malachi is sleeping in. alas, here we are this morning And we are going to continue our conversation on kind of and labor and delivery, maybe talk about some postpartum stuff. We have a rough plan for today, but basically we, in our last two episodes, have been talking about birth, labor, and delivery, and couldn't fit everything into one conversation. Maybe that's our fault. Maybe Chrissy and I don't do a good job just keeping things concise, or maybe it's a good thing and we're just talking about all the things, and there's a lot to say about these topics really. So we are going to continue our conversation. We're going to talk a bit about C-section birth versus vaginal delivery and kind of the benefits of both, um, and maybe the downfalls to some. Um, delayed cord clamping we wanna talk about, also cord blood banking because that's kind of a newer thing that people are doing these days, and maybe talk about like episiotomies or care, things like that. So that's kind of like our rough idea for today, so we'll see where this goes, and, uh, hopefully it is a wonderful conversation and helpful for those out there. Again, we plan to talk about things other than birth and delivery and pregnancy soon enough, so stay tuned. Hopefully, maybe the next episode, but I guess we can't promise that because at the end of every episode we've been like, "Let's keep talking about this," and hopefully you're having fun 'cause we're having fun. And honestly, what it's maybe about because Chrissy and I enjoy doing this, and other people enjoy listening to us. But before we dive into today's episode, we are going to do our random revelation, so Chrissy, kick us off with your random revelation today

Chrissy 4:02

Yeah, so my random revelation this morning is about fat burning specifically. Um, I learned this week, it was actually a question that was posed while I was scrolling on Instagram, but it was a very good question, and I realized that I didn't know the answer to it. The question was: Where does the fat go when it's burned? So if you're losing weight, how does the fat leave your body? And I was like

Katie 4:35

good question. I've never thought about

Chrissy 4:37

Yeah. I was like, "Well, I know it disappears." I'm over here like, "Well, the, the fat cell shrinks," but then you have to think about, well, where does the fat go that was in the fat cell? And I was like, in my head I'm like, "Well, does it come out through sweat? Does it come out through urine? Does the liver filter it out?" Like, where does it come out? You know where it comes out?

Katie 5:02

Where

Chrissy 5:04

85% of the fat that you burn is expelled through, out of your body via CO2 in air. Which makes sense. If you think about we're like, we're like, "Okay, we're burning off fat." If you burn off something, like burn off trash or burn off whatever, it turns it into gas. And so if we're burning off fat, we are turning those fat molecules into gas, and they are being expelled from our body via, through breathing.

Katie 5:38

Wow

Chrissy 5:39

And I was like, "Wow, that is so fascinating." So when we're over there like huffin' and puffin' after a workout, that's so much better than a workout that you can just breathe normally because you're gonna be burning more fat.

Katie 5:57

Okay,

Chrissy 5:57

Anyways,

Katie 5:58

breathe heavy

Chrissy 6:00

that was my... I was like, "Wow, that is a question I have never considered before." And then once it was posed, I was like, "Wait, I don't know the answer to this." So I just thought that was a very interesting little tidbit of information

Katie 6:17

Yeah. I'm even, like, considering, you know, when you're cooking with different fats on the stove, they do melt, and then you think about, okay, if you have a hood or, in some people's houses, they have, like, a microwave above their stove, and they have those filters there because you think about all the fat that collects in the vent in that fan. And it makes sense then that it would kind of, like, be a gas and slightly, like, evaporate in a, in a

Chrissy 6:50

Yeah

Katie 6:51

Is, is eva- evaporate even the right word to say

Chrissy 6:55

I don't even know.

Katie 6:55

that?

Chrissy 6:56

But expelled through expiration

Katie 7:00

Weird. I've never considered that. That is

Chrissy 7:03

Yeah

Katie 7:04

'Cause you do, you think about, like, it, there was, like, matter there, but then the matter disappears, and it doesn't just go into thin air, especially if it's, like, inside of you. It has to get out of you. Weird.

Chrissy 7:18

Yes, so that's, that's my, uh, fun little tidbit, a random revelation for this morning that I've been actually thinking... I heard earlier this week and have genuinely been thinking about for a few days of like this is so fascinating. I would love to take the time to actually look through like the chemistry of it and like how exactly does that work or does that happen? But it's probably similar to cooking, yeah, like you said. You know, the butter kind of turns to a gas. The oils kind of turn to a gas, and so it makes sense that body fat would turn to a g- Tallow turns to a gas, doesn't it? Like if you cook with tallow

Katie 7:57

into like a liquid. So you think about it melting in the pan, and then it kind of acts like water where it like evaporates, like it

Chrissy 8:03

Yeah

Katie 8:04

So that's why I would think maybe fat also, like it would have expelled through your sweat because if you think about it, fat, like cooking. I don't know. It's so weird

Chrissy 8:15

But that might be like the 15% that's not going through your breath

Katie 8:20

Okay, that makes sense

Chrissy 8:22

Anyways, that's my, my fun fact for today.

Katie 8:25

I love

Chrissy 8:26

Now you can sit with that.

Katie 8:27

Well, that was a great random revelation today, Chrissy. Thank you for bringing that to us. I love

Chrissy 8:32

You're very welcome. You can thank Instagram for taking my time

Katie 8:36

Instagram, for sharing all those random tidbits. Actually, that's, that is funny that you say that. My mom loves, like, scrolling on Instagram or Facebook and watching the videos and different things that people share, and she was just staying with us, what, this past weekend. And she's so funny when she'll be, like, sitting there, and she'll be like, "Ooh, wow," and, like, talking to herself. And you always, like, wait because then you know that she's gonna tell you whatever that fun fact was or something that she learned, and it's usually, like, random, useless information, kind of like the fat thing. It's like you don't really need to know it, but it's a really interesting thing to know, so she usually always shares it. But it is, it is one of those things that at the time you're like, "Wow, that's really fascinating." But could I tell you anything that she's told me over the last, like, weekend when she was here? No, probably not. Sometimes there's definitely things where I'm like, "Oh, that was actually pretty helpful." Or she sends me things about, like, kids a lot and just ideas for different things with toddlers. And actually, I do like to use painter's tape around the house to entertain Malachi. That is something that I'm pretty sure she sent me before, was some kids ideas with, like, you know, taping painter's tape everywhere because painter's tape isn't really super sticky. It's really easy to get off, and for kids it's, it's easy to get off so they can be entertained by it. So after all of the renovation we did in our house, we had a lot of painter's tape, and so I do often use that to entertain Malachi in different ways. So I think that's a thing she sent me to do. So thanks, Mom.

Chrissy 10:15

You also use, um, alphabet sticky notes

Katie 10:18

Yes.

Chrissy 10:20

That's great. You go around the house and collect the alphabet and then put them all in order

Katie 10:25

That's fun.

Chrissy 10:27

Yes. Yes

Katie 10:28

do that now. We- Malachi's actually starting to understand the alphabet. He actually can count to 10 now, which is cool.

Chrissy 10:35

Wow

Katie 10:37

developmentally if he's, like, ahead of the curve or- he's two now, but he loves counting to 10, and he loves repeating the alphabet after us. So when we, like, sing the alphabet, I go like, "A," and he goes, "A." And I go, "B," he goes, "B." And he like... It's so cute. But we'd probably soon be at a point where he can start to put them together, 'cause he does sometimes if I say, "A," sometimes he just says, "B." And then I say, "C," but then he repeats C. So we're, we're figuring it out

Chrissy 11:08

He's learning. It,

Katie 11:10

yeah.

Chrissy 11:11

are being made there.

Katie 11:12

yes. He does like to, once we get to W, he likes to do Y, Z, right? Is that? Yeah.

Chrissy 11:22

Fun to say

Katie 11:23

to do the alphabet. Is that where W, X, Y, Z?

Chrissy 11:26

Yeah

Katie 11:27

Is it? Okay. I'm like second-guessing myself. It's early, okay, guys?

Chrissy 11:31

It's early. It's really not that early, Katie.

Katie 11:34

I know. It's actually not. I just feel like it's early. And my office where I'm at, it doesn't have windows, so it just feels like a dungeon down here sometimes. I don't mind it as much because I, I've been making it kind of cozy as I can. Um, but also makes me feel like it's nighttime and I'm tired or something, and hasn't allowed me to wake up very much, 'cause I did not wake up and go outside like I like to do in the morning. I came down here to get ready for our podcast, 'cause again, Wes woke me up and was like, "You gotta go record." "Oh, yeah." So no morning sunshine on my eyeballs. I just came right down to this blue light computer screen, and my body's like, "No." Anyway, let's get to our topic. We are going to dive into... Maybe, maybe we should start off talking about C-section versus vaginal delivery, because that is a big... I, I think a lot of people traditionally are like, "I, I do want to do a vaginal delivery 'cause it's more natural." But there are actually health benefits for the baby when they are born vaginally versus via C-section, and this was not something that I knew pre-pregnancy. Like, I just, I kind of just knew like, "Oh yeah, it's probably better," mostly for me, because I'm like, if I get cut open from a C-section, that means I'm going to have a scar and need to heal longer. So I only saw it from the, for the benefits, like from my perspective of the benefits versus the baby's benefits and what they receive, um, via vaginal birth when they, yeah, are born naturally versus if they're born via C-section. So, um, maybe we could talk about those. Do you want to share anything or do you want me to kind of go into what I have on that?

Chrissy 13:32

Sounds like you have a little bit of a plan on how to present this information, so I'll let you go ahead, and if I think of anything, I will butt in.

Katie 13:41

Sure, sure. Okay, plan maybe is a loose term that we should use right now. But I do, off the top of my head, have a few things, that I know. So of the first things that I actually found very interesting, maybe I'll, maybe I'll start with this. So you think about the baby going through this tiny canal in the woman that it's, like, coming out of, you think about kind of how it's being compressed and squeezed out as it's coming out. Well, actually, that, physical squeezing is actually beneficial for the baby because that, like, squeezing and the pressure that they're experiencing on especially their chest area helps like, liquid and fluid that is in their lungs from the amniotic fluid. You know, so it's, it's natural. Like, they have-- They're, like, eating and swallowing and drinking the amniotic fluid while they're inside of the mother. And the pushing out of the vaginal canal allows the s- like, the lungs to be compressed and that fluid to kind of start to pushed out of their lungs. And so it kind of helps to clear out their, what is that called? The respiratory tract, and it kind of, like, helps prepare their lungs in general, but it also helps so that they can take their first breath because they do have to get, like, the liquid out and stuff, and so I don't know. Like, I guess the question might, would be because that liquid does have to come out, right? So what would happen during a C-section? I don't know.

Chrissy 15:31

After a C-section... So when I was in nursing school, the only birth I was able to witness was a C-section. Um, and that's when I learned I could never be a labor and delivery nurse, because I cried every single time we watched a video, or I heard about a birth, or I saw a birth. I just cried every time. And I was like, "I cannot do this as a job."

Katie 15:52

like were you emotional? Like,

Chrissy 15:54

Yeah, it was so beautiful.

Katie 15:56

I wasn't sure if it was like, "Oh my gosh, the horror," or if it was like an emotional crying, 'cause

Chrissy 16:01

No, no, I was like, "Oh my gosh, a new baby. It's a new life."

Katie 16:05

Yes

Chrissy 16:07

um, so with, pardon me, with a C-section, they will, um, often the baby still does take its first breath and start crying immediately upon being born. And with a C-section, you know, the, the baby's not being squeezed as much, but, you know, it's still kind of a tight, tight pull out, like especially if you got a big baby. Um, 'cause they can only make that incision so long because of where major arteries are. And so, yeah, so the baby generally does still start crying right away, but they do have to suction a little bit. So you have like the, you know the little suction bulbs that they have in the hospital. Um, so they use that to suck out, um, the fluid. And then sometimes if the baby just decides not to start breathing, um, they can kind of tickle the baby's chest. Not, not chest compressions or anything, but sometimes tickling the baby's chest will just make it kind of like, "Ah," and, like wake up and start breathing. Um, my... I feel like my L and D friend would be much better at explaining all of this, because she does it on a very regular basis. Um, but yeah, those are kind of just generally what happens. Like, babies are designed to start breathing, so whichever way they come out,

Katie 17:34

sense

Chrissy 17:35

you know, they're gonna start breathing. Um, it just might be a little bit more difficult with a C-section. They might need a few more interventions to help them get that extra fluid out. Um, I know sometimes if a baby starts choking or something like that, you can kind of give them a little back slap, and that'll loosen it up. They'll cough, and whatever will come out. So you know, um, they, they breathe

Katie 18:02

Yeah, they

Chrissy 18:02

most of the time.

Katie 18:03

eventually get it going. Well,

Chrissy 18:06

Yep

Katie 18:06

So that is one of those things that I know because you think about, like, the contractions and the pushing and the sliding through the, birth canal and stuff, and yes, so that is one thing. One of the major ones, and this is, like, a big discussion kind of in the crunchy space, and it was something, again, that I had no idea about, um, but Chrissy and I have talked a lot about the microbiome and the importance of having a, a good, strong, healthy microbiome. Well, that actually starts basically at birth, is that building up of your healthy microbiome. Um, and honestly, like, I think it's considered probably one of the most important, like, benefits or, like, like, big benefits that you can get from, a health and nutrition standpoint, um, when, when they're born vaginally

Chrissy 19:05

One of the things that I have actually learned that some providers have started doing, and I think the American Pediatrics people... Who is that? American Academy of Pediatrics or something like that.

Katie 19:22

Yeah, the AAP

Chrissy 19:23

Yes, American Academy of Pediatrics. I think they are trying to implement this as standard practice, but to take a vaginal swab for a woman whose baby's being born via C-section, to do a vaginal swab, and then to swab the baby essentially after the baby's born to expose the baby to the vaginal microbiome even though the baby doesn't go through the birth canal. Um, just because they have seen so many benefits to the baby being exposed to that bi- microbiome at birth, um, versus not being exposed. So I would be really interested... I know some providers are doing it, but I think it, some providers just see it as a waste of time and annoying. Um, and, like, probably see it as a little bit of an infection risk because they're like, "I have an open incision," which I totally understand that perspective. But, um, and also, if I remember correctly, with the, um, C-section that I watched, they actually swabbed the vagina with iodine to sterilize it a little bit before doing the C-section. And so I just wonder Yeah, I wonder, like, the order of operations here. Obviously, there, there would be a very clear order of operations. But I would be very... I'm very hopeful that that will actually become standard practice in America because there really isn't a group of people fighting against it. Like, everyone pretty much is on the same page that exposing a newborn to the vaginal microbiome is very good for them. And so, um, I'm hopeful that that will become standard practice, and C-section babies will be able to be exposed to those, those little germies because they're so good for them.

Katie 21:21

Yeah.

Chrissy 21:21

So

Katie 21:22

Yeah, so the, the idea is that when they are coming through the birth canal, they actually kind of take, mouthfuls, so, and,, they get the of beneficial micro- or, like, the flora into their mouth. It goes into their gut system. It's, it's considered, like, gut seeding almost. Um, and so it's, it's like their first exposures kind of the outside world, I guess, in a sense, because, you know, they're coming... I mean, if they're, if they're coming out properly, which in most cases they would be, they're head first, so their, their face is coming out first and gets that exposure to the kind of, germs and bacteria and things that are kind of in the birth canal. And it also, yeah, it helps to kind of start to train their immune systems and build up that microbiome inside of their gut. Um, it also, like, kinda helps to start train their systems to recognize, the good bacteria versus the bad stuff and the harmful stuff. And so, if you go out through, like, a cut, through, like, the C-section, they can do the vaginal swabbing. But that is a good question a- as far as, like, the order of operations and, like, how far or, like, how soon after birth should happen in order to be beneficial, because you'd think that once they're in the air, then they're starting to breathe in everything else that's in the air, and there is germs and bacteria and everything in the air already

Chrissy 23:11

let's be real. OR air is about as sterile as air can get, so

Katie 23:15

true. But everybody else is, breathing, right? So it's like there's, there's stuff in the air, but you're right, it, it is as sterile as it probably could be. But then you think about it probably should happen pretty immediately after they're able to start breathing that you'd want it to happen. But I don't know. I mean, it'd be a good question to try to figure out if there's still benefits if it happens, like, an hour after delivery or, or when... What is that mark to when it's not beneficial anymore, right? So anyway

Chrissy 23:52

These are all good questions. If we have any labor and delivery nurses or providers listening to this podcast right now, uh,

Katie 24:00

Tell

Chrissy 24:00

us a comment. Let us know what, what's the practice at your hospital? How do you guys do vaginal swabs? Do you do vaginal swabs for C-section babies? Just curious. Let us know. Or you could join us over in our Facebook group, Crunchy Christian Mamas on a Budget, share the information there, and then we can start a conversation about it. It'll be great

Katie 24:25

Yeah. And so the next step of their training is through breast milk. milk, actually this is kind of an interesting fact that I learned, again, once I was pregnant and started learning about, like, you know, you start making your goals and plans as a mother of like, "Oh, am I gonna breastfeed or am I not? Am I..." Whatever. And one of the things that I learned about nursing, so mother's milk is, like, this perfect food for a baby. Because you think about, like, a baby literally grows from, like, teeny tiny, usually, like, on average, like, what, seven pounds or so, and then they start just growing huge so fast. I mean, babies grow so fast, and you don't even realize it until you're like, they're in their newborn clothes, and then literally, like, a week later, they're in their zero to three-month clothes. But then they start growing out of that, like, within the next few weeks. And I was switching out clothes for Malachi so quickly that I'm like, "I barely even got to enjoy this one really cute onesie." And just trying to make sure they wear all their clothes. But they grow so fast. But breast milk is really fascinating because it, first off, is perfect to sustain and to grow life. But when babies directly nurse on their mothers, so, like, when they're actually, like, being directly breastfed- Their saliva goes into the glands on the breast and goes into her body, and her body then responds by producing specific types of milk for the baby so that their immune system starts to get stronger and stronger. So for example, if the baby has been exposed to, like, a little cold or something, and they're sick, the, like, breast will, like, take in that information to, and, like, get the germs into it, and then the, the specific antibodies that it needs in order to then fight off that illness. So it's like this, like, beautiful designed mechanism to help the baby build their immune system and their microbiome stronger, and it is just so beautiful and so fascinating. And it's one of those things that was kind of a sad bummer for me that I wasn't able to directly nurse Malachi, 'cause after he was in the hospital, he was on a feeding tube, and when he got off the feeding tube, he just never figured out how to latch again, which was fine. I still pumped. I was a, I was an exclusively pumping mom, and I did that for 13, a little over 13 months. So it was a long time, and so if anybody has been a, a pumping mom, you understand that 13 months is a long time to pump. And but it, it was just our rhythm. It was totally wonderful, and I, I never felt that it was a burden. It was actually kind of fun, and I was really sad to give it up, but it was a natural time to give it up when we were... It was when we were moving here to Michigan, was right after Malachi's first birthday, and I decided, okay, April his birthday, and then May was when we were leaving, so that's basically when we weaned him off, right at the end of May. And yeah, it was, it was sad. I was bummed. But breast milk is kind of one of those perfect things that when they're first born, it's starting to teach them and develop their immune system, which is super cool, and I wish Malachi could have gotten that. But he did get the breast milk, which was also super beneficial over, uh, bottles and stuff. So I'm trying to think if there was any other, benefits. There's something I feel like for the mother. I'm sure like, other hormonal changes and stuff that happen for the mom when they deliver vaginally. Um,

Chrissy 28:26

Yes, and one thing actually that I've thought about is, you know, a C-section is a major abdominal surgery, and the general rule of thumb after a major abdominal surgery is, like, don't lift more than 10 pounds. Well, a baby very quickly becomes more than 10 pounds, and so that's just very hard to navigate as a new mom of like, "Okay, I'm not allowed to lift more than 10 pounds, but now here's my brand-new baby who is 11 pounds, and what am I gonna do?" You know, so that's another thing to navigate is, like, I, I feel like so many people, at least when I was growing up, I feel like the, the conversation has changed a little bit towards identifying the benefits of C-section... of vaginal birth. But when I was growing up, I, I remember the conversation in our household was, "Oh, C-section's so easy. You just go in, you cut them out, then you don't have to go through the labor process, and it's not painful, and blah, blah, blah." Um, but the reality is, like, you're recovering from a major abdominal surgery, and it takes weeks to recover from a major abdominal surgery, and you're caring for a baby who doesn't know what just happened, and will kick you in the abdomen, you know, on accident, but will probably accidentally kick you, and you will probably strain a little bit, and, like, it's gonna hurt. So, um, yeah, I think that's just a really important thing to keep in mind that, like, it's not just cut the baby out and call it a day. It's, it's a long process of healing, and I would say the healing process from a C-section is much longer than the healing process from vaginal birth, for sure.

Katie 30:05

W- well, so at our birth center, you basically, once the baby is born... I forget the timing, and I probably could flip through this book to figure it out, but it was, something like you have a couple hours before you have to leave the birth center, basically. And so it's like you give birth, and then they're like, "See ya. Have fun with your life now that you have this beautiful baby." Whereas, if you have a C-section, you're gonna be in the hospital at least for a couple days recovering, and then you can go home. I don't know what the timeline is for that. I had a very weird situation where I basically was recovering from both at the same time because, yes, I did deliver vaginally, but then I had the hysterectomy right after, and it's basically the same thing as a C-section. They cut you open at the same spot that they pull a baby out, 'cause they're pulling the uterus out. And so yeah, I, I had double whammy where I was healing from both, and I had an episiotomy from my vaginal delivery, which we wanted to kinda talk a little bit about that, um, in a second. But I did also wanna say, so when you... So one of the steps that they do when they're, uh, operating, if they're doing a C-section, automatically put you on antibiotics. Do you... Is that correct, Chrissy? I'm pr- like, I'm pretty sure I knew that, like,

Chrissy 31:31

Yeah. I mean, that's, that is standard protocol for nearly every single surgery is a one dose of prophylactic antibiotics. Yeah

Katie 31:40

Ah, that makes sense. So okay, so then you're also, yeah, getting the exposure to the antibiotics, which we've talked about in the past on some episodes. Again, I think it was when we talked about the microbiome. Oh, and actually, I think we talked about it a few episodes ago we talked about just the interventions, medical interventions that kind of disrupt your body when trying to get pregnant, and antibiotics was one of those because they are so helpful in so many situations. Especially like for me, when I was dealing with an infectious disease, I wanted and needed antibiotics to help kill off everything that was in me. But like I said, it kills off everything that's in you, so that includes the good stuff and the bad stuff. So when you're delivering they routinely require that they, they put you on antibiotics in order to prevent any kind of infections because it is... Okay, that makes sense, Chrissy. That, I guess I didn't realize that. But yeah, you're opening this giant hole in someone's body. Of course you wanna make sure that no bad bacteria is getting in there and creating a, a worse, you know, like something like sepsis, like a blood disease. And so that makes sense. Um, but that is also one of those things that people talk about, like oh, the antibiotics can pass to the baby and also kind of disrupt their microbiome. And on top of that, they're kinda getting the double whammy of not going through the vaginal canal to then get that, uh, seeding that they would have, um, via the se- or via the vaginal delivery. So it is kind of a little double whammy. I don't know what the rate of, like what the amount of exposure to the antibiotics is for the baby, but they probably do get some exposure, even if it's minor, so. And you think their, their microbiome and their immune system at that point is so fragile. That was actually one of the things I was probably the most sad about after all of our stuff in the hospital, was like just the plethora of antibiotics and medications that Malachi was put on. 'Cause he also was on like morphine and all, all the hard stuff because he had to be sedated. And his microbiome was like super wiped out, but it's why we have taken a lot of measures in order to build that back up for him. I do praise God that he was able to be born vaginally because he did get that seeding in the beginning, and I'm sure that probably helped him. He also was, what was it? A week and one day past his due date, so he was like cooked, strong baby ready to go. then, you know, came into the world like that. Because if he were a preemie, it would've probably been a lot harder of a journey for him. Um, and yeah, I don't like to have to think about that because I just praise God that it all went the way that it did, and he is here, and you would never be able to tell. I mean, he's got a little scar on his neck now, and people, like, often see it and think it's, like, a bug bite 'cause it kind of bumps out the way that he, like, moves his neck. But it's just, like, a scar from where the, um ECMO machine went in. Anyway, um, so yeah, so with C-sections, there's obviously the exposure to antibiotics and, uh, anesthesia, you know, that you think about just all the other, like, drugs or pharmaceuticals that you're probably, exposed to, and, like, pain medications in general, like, uh, afterwards from, for the healing 'cause it, it's painful. I was on... Actually, oh my gosh, um, the h- I've never, I don't really talk about this, but I was on a lot of pain medications, especially 'cause I was still undergoing certain, like, surgeries after my hysterectomy. Um, I was on Dilaudid, you know, Dilaudid, and oh my gosh, this is, this is wild. I can commiserate with people who get or who have drug addictions after surgeries. not coming here to say I have a drug addiction, but I think if I were in the hospital even just, like, a handful of days more on Dilaudid, I probably could have developed some kind of a drug addiction because, so I had, I had... First off, I had that pump for the, um, epidural that I had going because, again, I was undergoing a handful of different surgeries. I also still, on top of that, had, was given, like, pain medications during these, like, minor, um, operations that they were doing, Dilaudid was, like, the number one that they'd give me, and there was a point where I had, like, a pump of it, and I could give myself a dose. And it was... I literally... This is, this is a really weird thing, and I, I don't... I think I've only told Wes this, so this, th- me telling this on a podcast is kinda wild, but I, I have to share it because it is a very interesting part of the journey. I can still to this day, this is two years, two years and one month later, I can still to this day recall the feeling that my body would get when I would get that hit of the Dilaudid, and just that, like, sensation of like, "Everything's totally good, and I'm so chill." And it would just be this, like, washing over of, like, I don't even know, like, just euphoria almost. It just- And it's wild because, like, this is over two years later, and I can still recall that feeling in my body. And I'm like, I totally understand why people get addicted to these pain medications. Because even me being in the hospital for three weeks experiencing those, I'm like, I think if I had been exposed to it longer, it totally could have developed some kind of addiction to the pain. Because at, like, a certain point, it was my choice whether I wanted the pain medication or not. And I kind of remember feeling like, "Oh, this is probably gonna be one of the last times that I, I'm going to be able to get this dr- medication," and feeling like, "Oh yeah, I, I should probably take it so that way, first off, I don't feel any pain with the, the surgery." Even though they were super minor at that point, and it was more like, it was more the pain of, like, someone taking a splinter, excuse me, out of your foot, where it's painful, it's really uncomfortable, but do I need such heavy medications for it? Maybe not. But it was just the fact that I had that power to say yes to it at the time, which is really interesting. Yeah. Anyway, there's a lot of medications and drugs that you're exposed to when you have, when you go through a C-section or through a hysterectomy and have all sorts of other complications with it. So yeah

Chrissy 39:08

you mentioned, um, a little earlier that you also had an episiotomy, and I think it might be important to touch on, like, the difference between an episiotomy and just tearing naturally, and, like, pros and cons of both of them. Because, I mean, you and I were talking before this episode started that there's people on both sides of the spectrum. Like, some people say that tearing naturally is better, and some people say an episiotomy is better. And so let's kind of go through what it is. So an episiotomy is essentially when the baby's coming out of the birth canal, if it's not stretching wide enough, the doctor can make a little incision or a cut, um, towards, like, towards the anus, um, that will open up the birth canal a little bit wider and allow the baby to pass through smoother. Now, one of the benefits that they say of having an episiotomy is that because it's a smooth cut, the doctor can easily go in and stitch it up, and you have less scar tissue overall. Versus when the doctor does not cut, um, sometimes a woman will tear, and that tear can be anywhere from, like, just a little bit to all the way down. Um, and a fun fact, actually, different, um... Oh, what's the word? Different nationalities have a tendency to tear more or less. I think if I remember correctly, in nursing school, we learned that Asian women are more likely to tear than, um, Black or white women, which I think is fascinating. But it kind of makes sense. I feel like Asians have very tight, beautiful, wrinkle-free skin. So that checks out. Just in general. Um, anyways, so with tearing, you know, the body's going to rip naturally. Obviously, that will create more scar tissue and, um, will be more difficult to stitch up afterwards. So one of the things that they say when a person tears is that you have a lower likelihood of actually damaging the musculature in the pelvic floor versus with an episiotomy, there is a higher likelihood of damaging the musculature in the pelvic floor, which can lead to a higher likelihood of having incontinence issues after birth and things like that. So there's pros and cons to both of them. Obviously, like scar tissue with the risk of more muscle damage, or, or less scar tissue with the risk of more d- muscle damage, or more scar tissue with the risk of less muscle damage. But ultimately, that risk of muscle damage is not a guarantee. It's like, the scar tissue's kind of a guarantee part. Um, the muscle damage is sometimes you get it, sometimes you don't. Um, this is where, though, um, pelvic floor physical therapy comes into play afterwards, and can be very, very helpful in, um, mending that area, getting rid of the scar tissue, making it so that intimacy later on isn't painful, because that is one of the things that a lot of women experience after tearing or having an episiotomy, is painful intimacy afterwards. And so pelvic floor physical therapy is very helpful for getting through all of those hurdles after an episiotomy or a tear

Katie 42:51

Yeah, So the two things I seriously didn't want to happen was a C-section. That was my number one. I was like, best as I can, I'm going to try to have this baby vaginally so I don't have to have a C-section." And my second one, but it wasn't my top one, was an episiotomy, and I super didn't want one. And I was super gung-ho about trying to do all the preventative stuff to not have it happen. It did have to happen in order for Malachi to come out, and then, yes, I basically had a C-section afterwards. So it was kind of funny that I'm like, "Of course, yeah, your plans just do not go according what you hope a lot of the time." And that's, again, not to say that that is the case for everybody. There are so many beautiful, perfect birth stories, and so I highly recommend that book, Ina May's Guide to Childbirth, because they talk about all these wonderful, great, natural birth stories. but if you are curious, there are ways to help prevent tearing. And so it's, what that's called, like, the perineal area. So the perineal massaging.

Chrissy 43:56

Perineal

Katie 43:57

Perineal, thank you. I'm like, "I don't even remember what it's called." Perineal. Um, so there's massaging down there, and it is kind of like massaging that area that's, like, that will tear, with some oil. So I kind of, like, I touched on this the other day, but I was like, "We'll talk about it later." Um, I had just used some, like, almond oil, um, some good, clean almond oil that I found online, and used that for massaging. You can try and do it yourself, but there, it is and easier with a partner. So you can look up how to do that, if you're interested in trying to do that. It's best just to, like, to kind of do that towards, like, the third trimester. So, like, obviously as you're getting closer to actually giving birth. Um, so that's one of the things that you can try and do. The other thing is during labor, you can actually have, like, warm compress kind of on that area. So, like, you think just taking, like, a warm, wet rag and kind of continuing to massage that area and help it to stretch and not tear, and it, it kind of eases that. And so, yeah, warm compress, um- They also talked about, like, slower labor can really help. So instead of, like, doing, like, these big pushes where you're, like, just heaving and hoeing, again, that's like another... this goes back to actually what we talked about, like, getting the epidural and some benefits or not of using the epidural. Obviously, you don't feel anything when you have an epidural, which I talked about the fact that I could not feel any of my contractions anymore. And so one of the benefits to not having an epidural is being able to kind of move with your contractions and taking, like, deep, controlled breaths that will help your body to, like, slowly ease open versus, like, quickly opening and tearing. So you, I mean, you, you think about, like, I don't, I, I'm just trying to think of, like, there's lots of instances in this, in just the world, where you're, like, trying to, like, slow down so you don't break something, and if you do it just so, it's not going to break or tear, and...

Chrissy 46:16

the best thing I can think about is Silly Putty.

Katie 46:19

Silly Putty

Chrissy 46:20

You know, if you have Silly Putty and you, like, stretch it really slowly, and you can get it really long and stretch all the way, versus when you have a ball and you just rip it apart,

Katie 46:33

Yes.

Chrissy 46:33

comes apart right away. You know?

Katie 46:35

Yes

Chrissy 46:35

just, like, the first thing I thought of. I don't even know why. I don't play with Silly Putty, but

Katie 46:41

That is true. I was also thinking, okay, as you said that, rubber bands when they are cold, the hot compresses, where the hot compress comes in, when they are cold they tear easily and they'll just snap basically, versus if it's warm and even if you give like s- you know, rubber bands, like, kind of those stretchy pulls and stuff, then it is easier to open. And you think about muscles in general, right? You have to, like, warm up and cool down. If you go work out on not warmed up muscles, often you... that can lead to injury and tearing of the muscles. So it, there's a lot of things. There we go. There's a lot of explanations as to, like, you wanna take it slow and be more controlled. Also, okay, this, we were kind of talking about birthing positions. This clearly shows we were not that prepared in our last episode, which is funny. When you... So there's, there's different birthing positions, and I do know for a fact, so when you're laying down on your back and pushing, like you traditionally see in movies and TV shows, you have a m- a m- a higher likelihood of tearing because of the way that the baby is coming out and where the pressure is going. You think about, again, gravity, the baby is, like, going downwards but trying to go out, and so there's a higher likelihood of tearing in that instance versus if you are in, like, some kind of upright position or even if you're side lying, it's actually beneficial to, like, lie on your side and then kind of have your leg kind of up and over and potentially on, like, a pillow or something like that so that it's propped up. But those positions a lower likelihood of tearing just because of the way that your body is naturally moving and opening and, yeah, again, it's just that process of, like, using gravity to your benefit when you're giving birth if you can. Um, and if your birthing place of choice allows it, um, you know. In a, in a hospital m- they might allow you to move around freely during, during labor, but then the actual delivery they may require you to lay down because it's, it's just easier to catch a baby for them. They can see everything very easily. They can assist better in that position. So for the doctor, it's an easier and probably more preferred position. But for the mother and baby, um, wanting a maybe less painful and more natural birth and delivery, using gravity, so doing some kind of, like, upright position or whatever is probably more beneficial. So, okay, there we go. There's some other tips for everybody.

Chrissy 49:30

I love it. I love it. Now, I also wanted to touch on, we mentioned in the last episode that we are going to talk about, um, delayed cord clamping versus cord blood banking. Now, um, there's big, big talk in the crunchy world about the importance of delayed cord clamping. So, the, in the umbilical cord, the umbilical cord itself has a bunch of stem cells in it. So stem cells, um, quick biology lesson, are the main foundational building blocks of the cells that we have in our bodies. It, they're not differentiated into any sort of specific kind of cell. It is the stem that creates baby cells that then become differentiated into an eyeball or an ear or a mouth or a finger or whatever, wherever they end up going. And so, um, there's a lot of talk in the crunchy world about the importance of delayed cord clamping. So delayed cord clamping is after the baby's born, allowing the blood from the umbilical cord to continue to travel into the baby. A lot of times the standard of practice in a hospital is baby's born, cord is cut, boom, and then baby gets cleaned off. Um, but when that happens, the baby misses out on so many beneficial nutrients, I guess, stem cells. Um, misses out on so many beneficial things for development and for their immune system because all of that extra blood that was in the cord does not get to go to the baby. And so there's different levels of delayed cord clamping. There's, like, one minute, three minutes, five minutes, no more pulsing until the cord is white. Some people even wait until after the placenta is fully delivered to cut the cord. Um, personally, I don't know where I stand on it. Um, I know for sure I'm like, let the cord be no longer pulsing and no longer pink. Like, I want the cord to be white and not pulsing 'cause that means the baby has gotten everything. Um, I don't know what the benefit of waiting until after the placenta is delivered, other than just being able to focus, as the mom, on delivering the placenta then, after delivering the baby. And then we'll deal with the cord later. Um, so that is the big thing. Another thing that we... that is newer in... Well, I guess, I don't know how new it is, it's just not super, super common just because it's so expensive, is cord blood banking. So because these umbilical cords have all of the stem cells in them, I don't know if many of our listeners have heard about stem cell research or using stem cells for cancer or healing and things like that. Um, but these stem cells from the umbilical cord can be banked. And so that essentially means that they are harvested, and then they're kept in a little refrigerator. And you pretty much pay, like, a monthly membership to care for these cells so that if, if baby gets sick, or 10 years down the line there's a huge accident, you need to regrow the ear some- for some reason or another, they can use these stem cells to essentially help with healing. Um, and so there's benefits to both Obviously, if you do the delayed cord clamping route, um, then the baby is getting all of those stem cells at birth, and so you're not going to have any stem cells left to be able to bank. If y- banking the stem cells, you would have to not delay the cord clamping as long. You could probably still delay a little bit, like one or three minutes or so, but you would still wanna make sure that there's blood in the cord so that those cells can be harvested. Um, and one thing about, um, cord blood banking is, like, it's really great if you have it, um, and you need it if kid gets cancer or something like that, and they want to use stem cells for healing. Um, if it's not ended up being needed, it's just really expensive to maintain. I don't know exactly how much it is per month, but it, it is, like, a monthly membership to care for the cells, to keep them alive, to keep them, um, incubated and properly tended to. Um, and so it's, it's a cost that... Did you get the answer of how much it costs?

Katie 54:19

So

Chrissy 54:20

Did you look it up?

Katie 54:21

in, in our, um, birth center, like, handbook that we had, they just had a paragraph. It says, "Typically there is a large upfront collection and processing fee of about 1,000 to $2,000, and then a continuing storage expense fee of about $100 per year, which may vary significantly between different companies." yeah. So it, maybe $100 per year doesn't sound like tons, but again, yeah, if you

Chrissy 54:53

Yeah

Katie 54:54

if you never use it, like, if you just keep the stem cells and then never use them, it's kind of like, well, that money could have been going to my kid's college fund or something, you know?

Chrissy 55:03

Right. And, and also, one of the things that I've seen is like, "Hey, my kid really needs stem cells, and my sister's having a baby. So my sister's gonna bank the cord blood for a month, and then I'm gonna use the stem cells for treatment for this ailment that is going on in my life." And so stem cells don't have to be used by the person that they are housed from, I guess, or harvested from. Um, but they are a really great, um, scientific discovery, I guess, a newer scientific strategy for healing. Um, they're very useful. They're... I, I would honestly argue they're kind of a more natural route, rather than trying to use, like, other drugs like chemotherapy or other, like, immune, um, immunotherapies, things like that. I feel like stem cells is probably a really great option if it is necessary to be used. But, like I said, it's expensive. And in my opinion, personally, if the baby is getting all of the stem cells at birth, then I would think it would benefit the baby more so in the long run than holding the stem cells to be used if possibly the baby ends up getting sick with a very severe terminal illness and would need them later in life. But that's just my personal opinion. There's a lot of different places to stand on this topic. Um, all in all, the important thing to know is if you want to bank cord blood, you cannot delay cord clamping all the way. You can probably delay for a little while, but not all the way. Um, and if you want to delay cord clamping all the way, you cannot bank the cord blood. So that's an important thing to keep in mind when you're making decisions. I think Max and I are probably not going to bank the cord blood because personally, I don't really feel like spending another $2,000. We've spent a lot of money this year, and

Katie 57:12

Yeah

Chrissy 57:13

I don't really wanna spend more money. So

Katie 57:18

That's a

Chrissy 57:18

we're,

Katie 57:19

plan

Chrissy 57:19

we're gonna do the whole delayed cord clamping. I don't know how long we'll delay it. It'll at least be white and not pulsing, but will we wait until the placenta is born? I don't know. We'll see

Katie 57:31

I just had, another thought of, the delayed or the, um, stem cell banking. It's kind of like this, living in fear, you know? Like, oh, like what if something happens and then I have these... But the chances of something happening, y- they're, uh, yes, they are there, and maybe they are higher than many years ago because the rate at which children are getting from chronic diseases, especially, like, cancers, is increasing every year, basically. So yes, again, it could be beneficial, but it is... I feel like it's just, like, living in fear that something's gonna go wrong, and not relying on the Lord maybe in those situations. Now, I'm not saying it's wrong or immoral or a sin to, do that. So if you are leaning that way or if you have chosen to do that already with your own children, the, I, I wouldn't say that. If, maybe if we had more monetary funds, we would've chosen to do it because, like, oh, cool, we could do it. Why not? But yeah, we of saw that in our book, 'cause I have it here. We, we read it at some point, and we just kind of were like, no, I don't really feel like we need that. I, I just... If something happens in the future, we will work through that and figure it out, and there are other medical interventions, and yes, maybe stem cells would be the more natural way to work through that. But yeah, I think we'll, we would, we'll have to cross that bridge when we get there if we get there, and hopefully we don't, and we just pray that that doesn't ever happen and that we save our money for other things. So anyway, that was just another thought I had of just, like, the living in fear not living in fear. So

Chrissy 59:28

Yeah, that's a good point

Katie 59:30

else to share this episode. Do you, Chrissy?

Chrissy 59:33

We have both enjoyed, um, talking about birth and birth prep and practices during labor and delivery and everything like that. So I hope you guys have enjoyed it as much as us. Um, and I think this is one area of our lives that I think is really easy to honor the Lord, honestly, because a lot of it is kind of black and white, you know, of are you doing this or are you doing this? Are you making this decision or that decision? And every decision has, um, a risk and a benefit to it. And so, um, I would just encourage our listeners, keep that in mind when you're having your babies. Um, every baby's gonna be different, and the Lord is with you in all of it, and the Lord will watch over you and will keep you and guide you. And so remember, whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God. And we'll see you guys next time. Thanks for listening to Crunchy Stewardship