From Admin to Architect: Cheryl Callaway’s HR Tech Journey

Cheryl Callaway, well-known in the iCIMS community for her sharp insights and generous support, joins Alex to talk career pivots, system admin smarts, and how to balance creativity with analytics in HR tech. From revamping workflows to decoding AI hype, this episode is full of real talk and real wins for anyone in the talent systems space. 

https://systemadmininsights.com/

Transcript

 Alex Marcus: I'm really excited to be speakin today for our system, ehm, and inci spotlight. Sh is a talent acquisition d data analyst and operations consultant with expertise in HR system administration user adoption.
 Alex Marcus: And process optimization. A recognized innovator in the HR tech space. Cheryl is a top contributor to the ISIMs iCare site and the system admin insights ISIMs community.
 Alex Marcus: If you've been in either of those is community, I know you've 
 Cheryl Callaway: seen 
 Alex Marcus: Cheryl's name in there constantly commenting, uh, helping clients find solutions and just generally being helpful. So, uh, her passion for HR technology is very, very.
 Alex Marcus: Apparent, and it's always very focused on solutions that really make her a key voice in advancing HR systems and strategies.
 Cheryl Callaway: Well, thank you. I appreciate that. 
 Alex Marcus: Welcome, It's all true. 
 Cheryl Callaway: Thank 
 Alex Marcus: you. All right. Happy to be here. Alright, let's go ahead and get started. Uh, what inspired you to dive into HR system administration?
 Alex Marcus: This is not something that anybody says when they're a kid. Hey, I want to be an HR system 
 Cheryl Callaway: administrator. 
 Alex Marcus: And yet here we are. What inspired you to follow this path? 
 Cheryl Callaway: Yeah, um, surprisingly, um, my path, similar kind of I would say to yours in the sense that you had a whole career before this, right?
 Cheryl Callaway: And I'm. I'm sure most of us did. I was a admin assistant, got a lucky break to become a data analyst.
 Cheryl Callaway: And at some point, you know, I was asked to come back into talent acquisition. And it was like, I actually really enjoyed it as.
 Cheryl Callaway: As an admin assistant in talent acquisition. So I thought, you know, this could be a great way to learn a little bit more, cut down the time on ramping up on the data analyst side, because that was going to take years.
 Cheryl Callaway: I think this would be faster. And, you know, just kind of learn the technology. And as much as, you know, my background is in computers and tech and things like that.
 Cheryl Callaway: So, you know, it's one of those. It was interesting to me. And when I got into it, it was like, oh, wow, no, I love this.
 Cheryl Callaway: This is perfect. Like, this is hitting everything that I want to do, but in one thing. So, I went down this path.
 Alex Marcus: And so, was there a particular supervisor who saw that potential in you and said, hey, Cheryl, why don't you try this?
 Alex Marcus: Or how did that happen? 
 Cheryl Callaway: Yeah, so, um, the original job that I was in, um. I worked with a recruiter and she actually came back to the same company.
 Cheryl Callaway: She had left and come back to the same company as a manager. And when she was a manager, you know, I had worked already closely with her as a recruiter, as an admin assistant, so. I was studying up a lot of her interviews and things like that.
 Cheryl Callaway: And so she kind of already knew my skill set. She knew what I could and couldn't do. And when, um, there was a position that was open, she's like, Hey Cheryl, do you want to come over?
 Cheryl Callaway: I was like, Oh, okay. But I mean, it took, I had to, you know, decide. And if I wanted to go that route, because I was a little concerned that I was actually going to pigeonhole myself with not just items, but that type of technology.
 Cheryl Callaway: Cause at the time, I had no idea about anything about HR tech. So you can imagine, you know, after about a year or two, I was like, oh wait.
 Cheryl Callaway: Okay, I'm not exactly pigeonholed. Maybe with items, but not pigeonholed, for 
 Alex Marcus: sure. items has 4,000 ATS customers last I checked. 
 Cheryl Callaway: So, 
 Alex Marcus: you know, I had a similar moment of feeling like, wow, I'm really niching down into something very specific here. But the fact of the matter is, is that the world is full of Isim's customers, 
 Cheryl Callaway: right? Exactly. 
 Alex Marcus: Exactly. Yeah. How was your perspective on HR technology evolved since you started? 
 Cheryl Callaway: Yeah, so when I first started, it was very much a, I had no idea that most- So this stuff even existed.
 Cheryl Callaway: So keep that in mind. I mean, you know, I applied to jobs, and for whatever reason, it never dawned on me that there was a software in the background that people were using to keep track of- never had any clue.
 Cheryl Callaway: you know, with HR, same kind of thing. I probably didn't realize that there was some sort of tech in the back.
 Cheryl Callaway: I don't, honestly, I have no clue why I never realized that. But as soon as I started realizing it, you know, I, and where I worked at the time, I had my hands in a lot of things.
 Cheryl Callaway: So it was a more about just learning about, oh, this is what, you know, the HRIS does. This is what the ATS does.
 Cheryl Callaway: This is what, you know, um, learning and development software does. And it was just fascinating for me because it was one of those I wanted to just dive into it and learn about everything.
 Cheryl Callaway: And it's not so much knowing a process. But just, what's out there? What's going on? So the more I got into it, the more I wanted to see other products.
 Cheryl Callaway: And I wish I could have done more demos and things like that. But yeah, my hands were just like in everything.
 Cheryl Callaway: I wanted Touch everything. 
 Alex Marcus: Yeah. Yeah. I know that experience. I've also, you know, come to a greater awareness of how much companies are spending on this technology.
 Alex Marcus: Yes. A lot of people. I had a friend who was telling me she's looking for a job and she's like, I'm just.
 Alex Marcus: I'm applying to any job. And I'm just throwing my resume out there and I'm using chat GPT to customize it.
 Alex Marcus: And I'm just applying for hundreds of jobs. Maybe I'm not even reading the jobs. I'm like, hold up. You realize that the companies you're applying to probably be, you know, uh, ehh, ehh, ehh, ehh, Uh, uh, uh, enormous sums of money to make sure that you are removed quickly from consideration because 
 Alex Marcus: you're spamming them, right? And I tried to explain some of the technology and explain some of the amounts of money they're invested.
 Alex Marcus: And, and combating spamming applications and sorting through applicants and whatnot. I think, I think the average applicant has no idea that sophistication of the tools that are being used.
 Cheryl Callaway: I completely agree. Hate to admit it. I am on. Recruiting hell subreddit. And I read all those lovely posts and I just laugh at most of them because half the 
 Alex Marcus: time. 
 Cheryl Callaway: I think to myself, that's a lie. That's a lie. 
 Alex Marcus: You 
 Cheryl Callaway: have no clue how an ATS And even if there are an ATS's algorithm that may do something like what people describe half the time.
 Cheryl Callaway: Most ATS's don't, 
 Alex Marcus: right? Yeah. 
 Cheryl Callaway: Very rarely is AI going to take. Like a look at your whole entire resume and say no. Right. And automatically reject you.
 Cheryl Callaway: Things like that, right? So I'm, I'm right there with you. 
 Alex Marcus: Well, I think a lot of people are just super frustrated and they're grasping for some 
 Cheryl Callaway: kind of 
 Alex Marcus: inclination, you know. Oh, I 
 Cheryl Callaway: completely agree. 
 Alex Marcus: I wish not. No, of course. Yeah. And knowing what an ATS is for your average job applicant feels like, oh, now I have a little bit of an edge and now I'm going to go down this rabbit hole and I'm going to, you know, invest in somebody to- ATS optimized my resume or whatever case may be.
 Alex Marcus: It's like, there's truth to it, you know, but also, um, I just- I just see people getting investing a ton of time and energy and trying to gain the system 
 Cheryl Callaway: when- 
 Alex Marcus: when so much money is being spent to- on the other side of that, 
 Alex Marcus: right? Yep, I agree. What's, What's a pivotal moment in your journey through HR technology that really stands out to you as, like, before it was this way and then this happened in a while.
 Alex Marcus: Now it's another way. 
 Cheryl Callaway: Yeah. Um, surprisingly, it was, moving from one company to 
 Alex Marcus: another, 
 Cheryl Callaway: but still being a system admin and a data analyst. Um, love the company that gave me the opportunity. I learned so much there, especially because I had my hands and everything.
 Cheryl Callaway: But when I moved to another company, it was like the first time I had seen another ISEM's platform, like in depth, not just trying to help other people out or anything like that.
 Cheryl Callaway: Um, and it was just, it was eye opening and it was. Wow, I could, you can do things so many more different ways and I've never thought about this or just even the fact that they have a whole complete different process, right?
 Cheryl Callaway: It was, um, I went kind of from. Um, not feeling super confident in my skills to feeling extremely confident in my skills and realizing, wow, okay, you know what?
 Cheryl Callaway: I have the skills, I, I have been learning all this time and as you know, you are 100% aware, learning isomes is like a continuous process, right?
 Cheryl Callaway: Always keeping up learning new things or even just learning random small things you had no clue existed. So we going into this new position was.
 Cheryl Callaway: I This, you know, my colleagues at the time were very well informed. But at the same time, I realized how much more information I had in my pocket and it just kind of gave me that boost of confidence.
 Cheryl Callaway: So from there. Here. It was just kind of like, wow, I view things so much differently, even with how I approach people asking questions and me trying to help 
 Alex Marcus: them. 
 Cheryl Callaway: And just, in general. So for me, that was like my pivotal moment, which is truly seeing another- I'll share that, um, similarly, 
 Alex Marcus: it was seeing another platform. This is my first, uh, full-time consulting gig. And seeing how much I didn't know, right?
 Alex Marcus: Because I, I thought I had done an extreme deep dive and sort of plumbed the depths of what is possible with ISIMS.
 Alex Marcus: And then I started working with- uh, global company. So my, my first ISIMS implementation was with a regional organization, and then I went to a global organization, and suddenly we're talking about, um, data centers and migrating from this country to another- the country, and learning a bunch of, uh
 Alex Marcus: , acronyms that I never heard before. I had no idea what APAC was, and I was like, awww, you're frantically googling on the side, right?
 Alex Marcus: You know, that, that was a big moment for me where I real- I was like, wow, this is a much, much broader, uh, uh, ocean playing field or whatever you want to call it.
 Alex Marcus: And that was exciting. It was, it was a little daunting, you know? I feel like, whenever you break through into a new realm of- of, of, of work, there's about a hundred terms you need to learn just to be, you know- Oh, definitely.
 Alex Marcus: Look, definitely. From a vocabulary perspective, but, um, but yeah, that wasn't really a fun turning point for me. 
 Cheryl Callaway: I was, I was gonna say, and, you know, I felt- the same way, in the sense of- maybe I don't know as much as I thought I knew, but at the same time, it's- the longer I dived into it, the more I realized, you know, I have the skills for this.
 Cheryl Callaway: No. Right? And yes, it is learning new about global, or, you know, learning the new acronyms and things like 
 Alex Marcus: that, 
 Cheryl Callaway: but at the same time, it's like, I know this, I got this, right? And no, I completely agree, and that's kind of how I felt.
 Cheryl Callaway: That's what like. I'm good. I'm okay. And that's I think what boosted my confidence was me walking into the whole other place and thinking.
 Cheryl Callaway: Oh my gosh, I gotta start from the ground, like ground zero, and I didn't. And even though it was, you know, it was a steep learning 
 Alex Marcus: curve. 
 Cheryl Callaway: At the same time, once I got it under my belt, it was like. Oh, this is not as bad as I thought it was going to be.
 Alex Marcus: Yeah, 
 Cheryl Callaway: yeah. So I hear you on that one. Yeah. 
 Alex Marcus: So how do you balance your, your analytical and your creative sides in your approach to HR technology? Because I think one thing that's unique about most of the people I meet in this field is that they straddle the line between HR and IT and can kind of talk both languages so we can talk IT speak to 
 Alex Marcus: the IT people, right? And we can talk HR speak to the HR people. Like, ah, how do you balance those two parts of your brain?
 Alex Marcus: Because I feel like everybody here does have a very active, uh, uh, whole brain approach. 
 Cheryl Callaway: Good point. Um, fun fact about me. I am actually very analytical and very creative 
 Alex Marcus: in my past. 
 Cheryl Callaway: Exactly, right? In my past jobs, um, they were either one or the other, right? They were a little bit more creative, so I would do more analytical, analytical.
 Cheryl Callaway: Little things at home, so I'd be like crunching all my Excel spreadsheets at home. Or, if it was vice versa, like when I was a data analyst in data day in, day out, I'd go home and start doing creative things like knitting and crocheting 
 Alex Marcus: and, 
 Cheryl Callaway: doing whatever, you know, umm, just more fun stuff to get my brain out of there. So, when I came into here, you're right.
 Cheryl Callaway: It is very much, you have to be creative. It's very much outside of the box thinking. But at the same time, you also need to kind of keep that, um, analytical side so that you do remain on point with either, you know, just how the system works, setting it up, the IT side of it, theta metrics.
 Cheryl Callaway: Uhm, so if you recall earlier, I said that I was given the opportunity to transition from an admin assistant to a data analyst, and the reason I was able to do that was because I was the- Informatics department, so the data analyst department, um, it was their admin assistant.
 Cheryl Callaway: Well, the person I s- who was my manager realized, oh, I actually can speak to her very easily. Right. I t-speak.
 Alex Marcus: And not I t-speak. 
 Cheryl Callaway: And she was telling me, you know, it's actually not a common trait, and it's very, it's not, you know, it's pretty rare.
 Cheryl Callaway: So she asked me if I wanted to come over. And I s after that, it was like, oh, okay. And I would just do, like, me being me, right?
 Cheryl Callaway: It 
 Alex Marcus: was, 
 Cheryl Callaway: like, it was like a perfect fit. And it was 
 Alex Marcus: like, 
 Cheryl Callaway: okay, great. So this is, um, that's the animal. And 
 Alex Marcus: I was able to 
 Cheryl Callaway: talk to people. But same thing with HR. Moving into the HR IT side, right? You start thinking about working with HR, recruiters, um, people like that.
 Cheryl Callaway: And it's, It's a whole different conversation again. Right. And for me, it's just, okay, just transition back to talking to that.
 Cheryl Callaway: I think a lot of it I learned from just being an admin assistant, being able to talk to anybody and everybody about 
 Alex Marcus: anything. 
 Cheryl Callaway: Right. And a lot of that is having to get along with anybody and everybody and also being able to speak to them in their language.
 Cheryl Callaway: Right. So a lot of times I would try to make sure that whatever terminology they use, I would use. Things I'd like that.
 Cheryl Callaway: And I would try to keep it more along, you know, the line. So if I'm talking to IT, I'm going to get into the details in the tech.
 Cheryl Callaway: If I'm talking to HR, I'm going to tell them how it works and the outcome of what it's going to do for you.
 Cheryl Callaway: Yeah. 
 Alex Marcus: Yeah. That's, that's really interesting. And when I flash back to my jobs as a waiter in restaurants, like, I got to practice that all the time as a waiter, get to see all sorts of different people and explain things in different ways.
 Alex Marcus: And, you know, there's a unique way to- I agree. You don't wanna- you don't wanna dumb something down or you don't want to, uh, leave out important information, but I just remember, I had a supervisor want to- I was- I was trying to demonstrate that I'd really done my homework, right?
 Alex Marcus: And I wanted to impress him with the fact that, uh, I did an extreme deep dive on this subject, and it was something obscure, it's super 
 Cheryl Callaway: obscure. 
 Alex Marcus: And- and I just remember his- he's getting redder and redder as he was, like, tolerating me geeking at, like, a full nerd meltdown in front of 
 Cheryl Callaway: him. 
 Alex Marcus: And at a- at a certain point, he's just, like, Alex, stop. Just- just leave. And we'll talk about this- and- and I went back to my desk and I was like, it was kind of a shock for me because here I had come, I just- I feel like I was, like, I showed up, like, with a- like a cat showing up with a mouse
 Alex Marcus: just caught, like, oh, great, thanks. That's kinda, I felt like, wha- Like, but they're just- I'm giving you 
 Cheryl Callaway: food, right? Right, right, 
 Alex Marcus: right. Doesn't want the food. Put that away. Don't need to see that. Like, decision makers, really, they- they- they need you to frame things in a way that they can understand and- and make use of and eat a- and- and how the sausage is made is not that important, 
 Cheryl Callaway: right? 
 Alex Marcus: The- what's important is the impact, right? And I have to constantly remind myself of that. Yeah. 
 Cheryl Callaway: Oh, yeah, no. I- I would say I'm still learning. I mean, they're- times when I'm like, oh, going down- going down the rabbit hole, you know, um, talking too much about the trees.
 Cheryl Callaway: I- I- I- I always have to get myself out of the trees. Um, you know, that comes from- being the data analyst, like, I'm in the data.
 Cheryl Callaway: I- I have to see all the trees. I have to understand all the trees. Or even with the system admin side, you have to know all the details, right?
 Cheryl Callaway: And you want to be sure to give enough information without- Overloading the people. And it definitely is, like, sometimes it's per person, 
 Alex Marcus: right? 
 Cheryl Callaway: It could be. Um, but, yeah, no, so I love this. I love being a system admin and a data analyst because- Because it balances out the two sides of me.
 Cheryl Callaway: So when I go home, it's like, I don't really need to do 
 Alex Marcus: anything. I don't- I don't need to do something to balance it, right? So, 
 Cheryl Callaway: let's go play with my dogs. 
 Alex Marcus: Yeah, there you go. So- What are some core values that guide you when you're optimizing HR system? 
 Cheryl Callaway: Whoo, core values. Um, keep it simple. Okay. Um. Ask a lot of questions. I mean, I know that's not really a core value per se, but for me, it is because it's always a reminder to keep asking them questions to make sure I understand the process to make sure I understand what they're actually wanting.
 Cheryl Callaway: Um, because a lot of times, in my experience, people don't, people don't always know exactly what they want. They have an idea of what they would like the system to do, but they don't really know what they need or what they want.
 Cheryl Callaway: So asking those types of questions. So I always try to remind myself, core value, right? 
 Alex Marcus: Ask questions. Keep asking questions until we both understand each other, and I know exactly what they want. 
 Cheryl Callaway: Um, just, I mean. Honestly, it's keep it simple. I can get very complicated. I can overcomplicate things when I know that.
 Cheryl Callaway: So in my head, it's always keep it simple, Cheryl. Keep it simple. 
 Alex Marcus: Yeah, I can't relate at all. No idea what you're talking 
 Cheryl Callaway: about. 
 Alex Marcus: Yeah. No, it's a constant challenge. 
 Cheryl Callaway: I'm an overthinker. I 
 Alex Marcus: admit it. 
 Cheryl Callaway: And, I mean, it's got pros and cons, right? Like, I can come up with a ton of great ideas. 
 Alex Marcus: Yeah. 
 Cheryl Callaway: But having a narrow down to 
 Alex Marcus: what sometimes is difficult. 
 Cheryl Callaway: Uh, so I, I try. I mean, that's my biggest core value. And, of course, I mean, the biggest other thing that I always think about is, this is for the user.
 Cheryl Callaway: This isn't for me. 
 Alex Marcus: Mmm. But 
 Cheryl Callaway: in the same breath, that another user, Could override what this user needs. So it's, 
 Alex Marcus: it's 
 Cheryl Callaway: balanced. Balance is always, I would say, balance is a good word. Balance out the needs and keep it simple. 
 Alex Marcus: There you go. Yeah. Reminds me of something that aerials. That she said, solve for the 99%. 
 Cheryl Callaway: All right. 
 Alex Marcus: You can, 
 Cheryl Callaway: I'm, I'm even more like, solve for the 90%. But yeah, no, I, I completely agree. Like, don't try to solve for that one person.
 Cheryl Callaway: Um, and if you do, and it does, to me, it's like the only time I ever solve for that one percent is if it won't affect anybody else.
 Alex Marcus: Right. The only 
 Cheryl Callaway: time I ever try. 
 Alex Marcus: Yeah. 
 Cheryl Callaway: Yeah, no, that's a good, that's a good thing. Do you 
 Alex Marcus: remember too? Yeah. What's the biggest mistake that you think organizations make when implementing new HR 
 Cheryl Callaway: system? Oof! This is goodness. Uh, uhm, uhh, having the wrong people implement the 
 Alex Marcus: system. Oh, same word. 
 Cheryl Callaway: Uh, yeah. So, for an example, um, well, I'm not really an example. Things I've heard. I guess you could say.
 Cheryl Callaway: Um, from other clients, uh, other Isans clients and other just people I've talked to and even a little bit in my own life is, you know, for an example, having IT set it up because they figure it's software.
 Alex Marcus: It's just software. 
 Cheryl Callaway: And they kinda talk, and they talk to HR. They don't talk to the recruiters. They don't 
 Alex Marcus: talk 
 Cheryl Callaway: to those, like, talent acquisition. They talk to 
 Alex Marcus: HR. Yeah. 
 Cheryl Callaway: And HR is not really the- I'm using the product, right? Um, I 
 Alex Marcus: see that 
 Cheryl Callaway: a lot. I've heard that a lot. And I'm always like, wow, okay. Um, I think that, to me, that's like the biggest mistake organizations made.
 Alex Marcus: Make. Give 
 Cheryl Callaway: me. In the sense that they, they look at it as a software product. I mean, it is a software product, but at the same time, it's, you should be talking to the actual users of the product and not necessarily, you know, the candidates, but more so.
 Cheryl Callaway: The recruiter's heart, who live in their day in, day 
 Alex Marcus: out. 
 Cheryl Callaway: I was surprised about that. Um, the other, I would say, thing that I can think of is not having a well-drawn out a well-prepared, um, So, a lot of times people may be, they may say, hey, I just want to replicate exactly what we are doing now.
 Cheryl Callaway: And my first question is. Is always, are you sure? 
 Alex Marcus: Because, 
 Cheryl Callaway: are you sure you don't? So you're, you're telling me your, your process is perfect. There's no issues, no concerns, nothing.
 Cheryl Callaway: And that's when they start to break down and kind of go, oh. You know, you're right. Like, we do have an issue here.
 Cheryl Callaway: We think about this or, you know, our automating things. Hey, Isums can automate more things for you. Do you want to work that into your process?
 Cheryl Callaway: Sometimes people are like, no, no, it's fine. You know, it's going to happen, right? We all 
 Alex Marcus: know 
 Cheryl Callaway: what's going to happen later down the line. 
 Alex Marcus: Yep. Those are great callouts. Yeah, I've seen that a lot where IT has set up the process and it may be logical.
 Alex Marcus: High level, but it. It does not have, it doesn't show any empathy for the end user. That's what it comes 
 Cheryl Callaway: in. 
 Alex Marcus: Exactly. 
 Cheryl Callaway: Yeah. No, that's great way to say it. Yep. Yep. Yeah. 
 Alex Marcus: you have any tips for explaining complicated technical concepts to non-technical stakeholders? 
 Cheryl Callaway: Oh, uhm, I know- We kind of touched it on another question, but I try to focus- I think it depends on who it is, right?
 Cheryl Callaway: So, um, but I tend to try to focus on the outcomes of what the technical- technology product will bring to that, and how it affects that person.
 Cheryl Callaway: Like, what are they- what are they wanting to know about, right? So, for an example, if some- I'm talking to somebody and they're trying to understand ROI, I'll talk to probably stats about ROI.
 Cheryl Callaway: I probably won't even really talk about the system, or, you know, just how it's helped us type of thing, not so much the technical details.
 Cheryl Callaway: If I was talking to, for an example, an IT security person, I might go into a lot more- But I try to keep it pretty high level.
 Cheryl Callaway: Uhm, I, like I said, I try to stay out of the tree. But it's, it's, my conversations are usually focused for that.
 Cheryl Callaway: Person, what are they looking for? Like, what kind of response are they looking for? Meaning, I guess, like, what's subject?
 Cheryl Callaway: Yeah. Yeah. Got it. 
 Alex Marcus: Got it. And how do you stay energized when managing? Multiple complex projects. 
 Cheryl Callaway: Another fun fact about Cheryl. So, kind of have ADD a little bit, um, which means multiple projects is a dream come true for me.
 Cheryl Callaway: Although it can be 
 Alex Marcus: overwhelming. 
 Cheryl Callaway: Uh, but honestly, being able to jump from a project to project is literally what keeps me energized. Um, unfortunately, one thing I found out about being a data analyst.
 Cheryl Callaway: Eight hours a day, five days a week 
 Alex Marcus: was 
 Cheryl Callaway: I do not feel energized because it's just data and projects can take, you know, years. So it was one of those.
 Cheryl Callaway: That was one of the reasons why I decided to get up. Out of just being a peer data analyst. It 
 Alex Marcus: just 
 Cheryl Callaway: was not what I kind of needed, but working in ice rooms on the other hand. It's just, oh, yes, I may have different projects.
 Cheryl Callaway: Um, but being able to. Jump between projects and that is one of the reasons why I am on the community.
 Cheryl Callaway: It's my break. It's my break from, you know, ice and stuff. If I am working on a big project, it's my break from data.
 Cheryl Callaway: Analysis and things like that. If I need a, just like a head break. 
 Alex Marcus: It's like, all right, I'll just go see what people have posted and respond to that. So how do I say energized?
 Alex Marcus: I go to the community. Yeah. 
 Cheryl Callaway: Yeah. 
 Alex Marcus: Including SAIs. Community. Hey, look for SAI. Yeah. Same here. Oh, it's really, it can be, it can be relaxing. And I never thought about that in terms of like, because from one perspective, it could seem like.
 Alex Marcus: More work, but actually just changing gears for me can be very refreshing. So I can still be doing brain work, but because I'm not doing the brain work that I was doing for the last three hours, it feels totally different.
 Alex Marcus: I never, I never really, never really noticed that. That's, that's cool. Yeah. Okay. So let's talk about the future of HR tech.
 Alex Marcus: If you could design the perfect HR system, what features would be absolutely essential to you? 
 Cheryl Callaway: Oh geez. Umm. I know no vendor would love this, but I would love flex to the platform to me.
 Cheryl Callaway: I mean, 
 Alex Marcus: open source, open source HR platform. I don't think to that, right? I mean, we see that with items. It's pros and cons when you can get so customized.
 Cheryl Callaway: But at the same time, like being the backend user, just, oh, I would love Um, I kind of thought about this a little bit and it was, um, from a data analysis, a data analyst point of view reporting, just straight up reporting.
 Cheryl Callaway: Give me the access to report. So, capture all my. I don't know, I think it would be, depending on, like, a user. I mean, right?
 Cheryl Callaway: Like. From a, if I was trying to develop, like, an ATS, there are so many things I would love to throw in there.
 Cheryl Callaway: Cause I've seen other ATSs, like, non-Isomes, ATSs, and I'm just like, oh, I wish we could have this in Isomes, this would make every- Nobody's life so much easier.
 Cheryl Callaway: And I understand, like, why we can't per se, but, ah, I would love this piece or that piece. Um, notifications are huge.
 Cheryl Callaway: I feel like everybody wants not to f notifications. 
 Alex Marcus: Mmm. Yeah. That's why I was excited when I sims released at mentioning that's something that I'd seemed to another. 
 Cheryl Callaway: I don't really know how he would use it, but I was excited just that. It existed. It was like, oh, this is great.
 Cheryl Callaway: Uh, yeah, no, but I mean, we have integrations for a reason, right? 
 Alex Marcus: And I realize there's not gonna be an all in one product that does everything 
 Cheryl Callaway: completely well. But that being said, if I could create the perfect product, it probably would be that. Something that 
 Alex Marcus: does 
 Cheryl Callaway: everything. Pretty darn well. 
 Alex Marcus: What popped into my mind is, uh, TikTok. So I recently met with the HR system and it's, They have their own ATS that they developed in house.
 Alex Marcus: Right. So companies of a certain size will need, have needs that are so bespoke that they just decide to create it themselves.
 Cheryl Callaway: Mm-hmm. 
 Alex Marcus: Yeah. 
 Cheryl Callaway: That's 
 Alex Marcus: crazy. Yeah. I f always, there's always trade offs. It's always trade offs. 
 Cheryl Callaway: There is. And I mean, I've worked in not ATSs, but other products that were like homegrown. 
 Alex Marcus: Mm-hmm. 
 Cheryl Callaway: And the problem becomes when it kind of Thank you. It becomes bigger than your IT department. Yep. Yep. Yep. 
 Alex Marcus: Somebody has to make that business decision. Are we going to invest in home problems? I think, like you said, pros and 
 Cheryl Callaway: cons. Pros and cons, right? But I can imagine they have pretty much everything. Everything that they want in that. Yeah.
 Alex Marcus: Yeah. What role do you see AI playing in HR systems in the next few years? 
 Cheryl Callaway: Oh, uh, good question. Um, I. I feel like we have just touched the surface with where AI can go. Um, I feel like what's going to happen is we're going to have more AI, but it's going to be more like helping us with those tedious tasks.
 Cheryl Callaway: That nobody wants to do. I mean, I love that Isam's house co-pilot for job descriptions, regardless of how good it is or isn't.
 Cheryl Callaway: But if you're a person that struggles with creating something, especially if you, you have to build that- 
 Alex Marcus: That's- That's like, it's one of those- That's awesome. Um, 
 Cheryl Callaway: I- I'm also concerned of it going down the path of too much, right? Where now we have laws, and I mean, there's already laws out there.
 Cheryl Callaway: But maybe more strict laws and things like that, where all of a sudden we went from, we're using it for tedious tasks or little things here and there to, well, now we can't use it at all.
 Cheryl Callaway: So, I want them to introduce- introduce us. Slowly, 
 Alex Marcus: but 
 Cheryl Callaway: I'm going to say methodically and also, you know, be cognizant of what's going on in out, out there in the world with, you know, the fact that.
 Cheryl Callaway: Candidates already don't want AI rejecting them. Which, again, we said, ATSs don't completely do that. 
 Alex Marcus: Uh, however, at the same time, it's, 
 Cheryl Callaway: it's one thing for an AI to kind of look at their resume. But I also feel like, what else can we do, right?
 Cheryl Callaway: Or where should we draw that line? So, I'm excited for what it brings for just, in general, including like, HRISs, uuuh, but at the same time, I am concerned that we may go too far too fast and then they're just gonna start slapping laws on us left and right to the point where, oh well, now we can't 
 Cheryl Callaway: use anything. Yeah, 
 Alex Marcus: yeah. 
 Cheryl Callaway: I think 
 Alex Marcus: also s- similarly with, like, I remember three or four years ago, I went to an HR tech and, and half the vendors there were talking about blockchain.
 Alex Marcus: Last year, no, it's like a dirty word. Nobody can even, nobody can mention blockchain because it has such a bad reputation.
 Alex Marcus: I think something similar is gonna happen with AI. Where 
 Cheryl Callaway: it's 
 Alex Marcus: not going away, obviously, right? But it will no longer be seen as a marketing asset to throw, hey, we're now the world's first AI, whatever, or, you know, sprinkled with AI.
 Alex Marcus: People not gonna wanna hear it. It's still gonna be ha- happening. And then I think eventually we'll get to the place where, like, I have my friends with kids who say, like, they'll, they'll touch a computer screen and nothing moves.
 Alex Marcus: They'll be like, daddy, it's broken. The screen doesn't work, right? Because they're 
 Cheryl Callaway: There's some use 
 Alex Marcus: of that, right? Please don't touch screens. That's all they know, right? But 
 Cheryl Callaway: that's not true. 
 Alex Marcus: Right? So I think at some point, we're just going to interact with computers, uh, in a, in a way that is like.
 Alex Marcus: Thank you. So much easier. I mean, like, we're, we're, we're such techy people. I know we, we pride ourselves on how skilled we are with computers, 
 Cheryl Callaway: uh, 
 Alex Marcus: but it still, it shouldn't be this hard to use computers. I say that as somebody who loves you. It's so enormously, enormously, we as professionals, right?
 Alex Marcus: We're professional computer users, right? And like, I just think about sometimes about folks who are not, folks for whom it's not on to use computer, I can't imagine what that would be like.
 Alex Marcus: Oh, god. But I think that's a lot of people, right? Yeah, and I feel like AI for those types of people is where it comes into play, right?
 Alex Marcus: When I- Yeah. I think about, for 
 Cheryl Callaway: example, I mean Siri. 
 Alex Marcus: Yeah. 
 Cheryl Callaway: Or even, um, Amazon's, I can't think of the name right now. Alexa. 
 Alex Marcus: Things 
 Cheryl Callaway: like that. Like, I feel like those types- Like, we speak about Shane and his AI.
 Cheryl Callaway: I, I fall into that category also. I'm very anti-AI in my real life, 
 Alex Marcus: but 
 Cheryl Callaway: for work though, I feel like, you know, there's a lot of things that we can do with it, but. I don't want it to go too far.
 Cheryl Callaway: Yeah. 
 Alex Marcus: Yeah. 
 Cheryl Callaway: Yeah. Yeah. Can 
 Alex Marcus: What's the most rewarding project that you've worked on? And why? Uhh. 
 Cheryl Callaway: Uhh. Uhh. Oh gosh, umm. Okay, this is probably one of my first big projects.
 Cheryl Callaway: Good. It's probably a little bit more wide, a little bit more rewarding, but it was, it was big. Basically taking their flow that hadn't been touched for years, 
 Alex Marcus: the 
 Cheryl Callaway: workflow, 
 Alex Marcus: and revamping it, 
 Cheryl Callaway: and not just revamping it, but making it so it aligned properly with what we were actually doing. And then putting in all the little things, right?
 Cheryl Callaway: All the, all the auto pop-ups, all the event notifications, and just, um, at the end of it, hearing the recruiters tell me, you know, how great it is, and how much easier How much more smoother it is, and makes more sense, and things like that.
 Cheryl Callaway: In addition to me being able to gather my data now, right? 
 Alex Marcus: Yeah. 
 Cheryl Callaway: Clean data. And for me, I think that's honestly one of the biggest things that turned me on. On to working in this area was positive feedback.
 Cheryl Callaway: Oh my gosh. I made a difference in people's lives. Like that was great. Um, so I think that probably had the biggest impact long term.
 Cheryl Callaway: Just. Because it was the first one. It was like, wow, I made an impact. I did something. I changed their lives at work in a sense of making things easier for them.
 Alex Marcus: Yeah. 
 Cheryl Callaway: And. Awesome. How can I do this? How can I do more for them? And I went from an admin of what can I do for you to system admin of what can I do for you?
 Alex Marcus: Yeah. Yeah. And I think that, that, that satisfaction. That we get from the end user being happy is so, it's so valuable.
 Alex Marcus: It is. Not everybody has that. And I would say, in our little niche, we are more focused on that because of our, our.
 Alex Marcus: The HR part of our job than, and folks, our counterparts in IT. Broad, painting with a broad strokes, with broad strokes there.
 Alex Marcus: But, um, yeah, yeah, but, but really, you know, we really, we really drive deep satisfaction from the end user having a.
 Alex Marcus: Having a good experience. I 
 Cheryl Callaway: do, and 
 Alex Marcus: I hate to say, I mean, I think that's 
 Cheryl Callaway: probably what gives me pleasure of doing a lot of this. It's just. Yeah. I like to make people happy. 
 Alex Marcus: Yep. Yep. 
 Cheryl Callaway: Yep. Same. Yeah. 
 Alex Marcus: Yeah. What advice would you give your younger self at the start of your HR technology career? 
 Cheryl Callaway: Uhh, umm. As odd as this is going to sound. It's, I would have told myself to ask the super users that I've met.
 Cheryl Callaway: More questions. 
 Alex Marcus: And I don't mean technical questions. I 
 Cheryl Callaway: mean questions about how to, the business side of it, the business processes of it, and their project management side of it, right?
 Cheryl Callaway: Um, how they handle implementations, how they handle integrations, how they handle changes like that. Um. Because, you know, I was so focused on learning the system and how the system works.
 Cheryl Callaway: I don't think I ever, I wasn't thinking too much about the business side of it, in a sense of, 
 Alex Marcus: yeah, what 
 Cheryl Callaway: does the business need? How 
 Alex Marcus: did the business processes work? Things like that. Um, 
 Cheryl Callaway: so I think I would have picked more people's brains who have been doing it a lot longer, because I remember when I was on the community, there's a lot of people there who had been doing it for a while.
 Cheryl Callaway: So it's one of those, um, I wish I would have picked their brains a little bit more, like, hey, can I take 15 minutes and just pick your brain about what you do now?
 Cheryl Callaway: Like, how you do it? Because I feel like a lot of times we walk into this position, thinking of a more just straight up.
 Cheryl Callaway: Oh. I need to take care of this system, right? I need to be techy and make this changes and things.
 Cheryl Callaway: Whatever they need, I need to change, things like that. Um, whereas you are in business processes a lot more than you should think.
 Cheryl Callaway: And so, even though I knew that kind of, you know, learning, learning pretty fast, I knew that I had to be.
 Cheryl Callaway: It's more, I would have loved to pick people's brains to understand how to be better at 
 Alex Marcus: Yeah. 
 Cheryl Callaway: So I know that's kind of a weird one, but at the same time, I think it would have helped me long term earlier.
 Cheryl Callaway: That makes sense. 
 Alex Marcus: What I heard was like, big picture. Like what is, let's, let's. And I've had the same experience where I, I love going down these techie rabbit holes and solving for obscure little things and figuring out how to make something work.
 Alex Marcus: But you, the big, if you're not keeping the big picture in mind, umm. It's only half of, it's only half the picture, right?
 Alex Marcus: And, and I would have told my younger self, like, learn analytics now. As you're learning this other stuff, learn that now so that you can tie the two together so that you can make business cases for, uh, projects that that's right, right?
 Alex Marcus: Like, I never, I did not think about making a business case. Like, I just took it on faith that my employer, uh, values what I'm doing, and we'll continue to.
 Alex Marcus: So, right? But like, the, I think, the forward thinking HR tech professional who is able to also assist with making a business case for increased technology adoption, or.
 Alex Marcus: or product. That's a super valuable skill to have. And I find that a lot of folks just get so focused on the technical aspect of this work that they, it's sort of seen like the analytics is sort of like the holy grail.
 Alex Marcus: We'll get there some. You know, like, oh, yeah, no, I completely agree with 
 Cheryl Callaway: that. You know, that's a good point. And I think I probably didn't think about it because that was the other half of my job was the analytics.
 Cheryl Callaway: So it was already in my mind. Yeah. About what I needed to do. And when I created that workflow, it was also because I needed to collect data, right?
 Cheryl Callaway: So the workflow was also, ooh, okay here, I gotta fix this so I can capture data, clean data. Um. I didn't think about that.
 Cheryl Callaway: So, good point. Good point. 
 Alex Marcus: Alright, Cheryl, thank you so much. It's been a wonderful and fascinating conversation. I really appreciate you speaking with me. And I will see you in S.A.I.
 Alex Marcus: sometime soon. Have a great day and talk to you soon. 
 Thank you.