iCIMS Hacks: AI Explainability, Access, and ATS Decisions (12/12/25)

A big topic was the continued need for AI explainability- how do you audit what the AI is doing? The group also shared lessons on agency access, Quick Search and search locks, and how to defend keeping a standalone ATS instead of going full suite.

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Transcript

Alex M: Yeah. Great. Alright, let's go ahead and get started. Welcome, everybody, to System Admin Insights. So happy to see you here.
 Alex M: Uh, please put something in the chat that you're grateful for today. Today, I am grateful for Vivian. Vivian Larson. Vivian Larson joined me for a call today with one of our members, and that member is looking at.
 Alex M: At Workday Recruiting, and we spent about half an hour talking about ISIMS versus Workday Recruiting and the pros and cons.
 Alex M: We actually have an article that is coming out of that called Workday Recruiting Due Diligence, 100 plus questions to ask before you switch.
 Alex M: These are really, really great targeted things that should be on folks' minds. Uhm, we know a lot of companies and, uhm, end up, uhm, feeling that pressure to go for the one-stop shop solution.
 Alex M: And again, you know, nothing's, nothing's perfect. Uhm, but we find that sometimes companies, the ATS is kind of an afterthought, high level, especially for larger organizations.
 Alex M: Right, and the ATS really deserves, uh, it's, it's own, it's own part of the RFP. So, this document, I hope, is helpful.
 Alex M: It's a blog article, and I'll publish that on our blog and put it on LinkedIn next week. Let's see. Daniela says, College Bowl game season.
 Alex M: All right. Greg says, Snow. Finally had, I was going to say gray. It's not snowing in New York. Measurable snow in New Jersey on the ground.
 Alex M: Cool. Caitlin says, Peppermint Mug. Mocha season. Indeed, I'm jealous. Alright, thanks Greg. Yeah, yeah, it's a good one. Alright, next slide please.
 Alex M: Reminder that we're recording the session and will post the recording to Circle, Spotify, and every once in a while we post on YouTube.
 Alex M: Transcript is incorporated into the Circle chatbot, so if you're in here looking for answers, don't forget that if you use the search feature, it's pretty easy particularly the AI search feature.
 Alex M: It's going to comb through all the transcripts of, I don't know, at least a hundred calls that we have in there now.
 Alex M: Lots of great stuff in there. Please. Today, we're going to do a Now You Know with Vivian Larson on access, control, configuration.
 Alex M: Very exciting. Then we'll go to general questions, some announcements, and then we'll do a What We Learned video at the end.
 Alex M: If you'd like to join us and share something that you learned today, you're more than welcome. And with that I will hand it over to Vivian.
 Alex M: Oh no, my bad, my bad, leaderboard. Alright, so here are our leaderboard. Folks, the last seven days, congratulations.
 Kaitlyn Faile: I have sadly lost the Dancing Parrot
 Alex M: gift. Oh, this Dancing Parrot gift. Dancing Parrot is gone, alright. We need
 Kaitlyn Faile: to recover that.
 Alex M: Dancing Parrot is in our minds and in our hearts. Just know that if your name is on this slide, a parrot is dancing with for you somewhere.
 Alex M: Alright, and with that, I will turn it over to Vivian Larson. Hi, Vivian.
 Vivian Larsen: Hello. So this is by frequent request. Uhm, I've, a bunch of folks have asked me to explain this concept a little bit more deeply and it's one of those where I have to start from the beginning and the beginning is what.
 Vivian Larsen: What is an ISIMS permission? And so we're going to start at the very, very beginning. I've talked we're going to start off with showing what a search lock looks like.
 Vivian Larsen: Um, so, new ISIMS access controls is is. A different approach to system permissions. But in order to design new ISIMS access controls, you need to be aware of all of your options.
 Vivian Larsen: For permissions in the ISIMS system. I've talked about security rules, and I've talked about search locks before. Search locks are her.
 Vivian Larsen: Binary, meaning that there is no if or or gray area in search locks. Search locks. We'll see essentially are a way you can prevent any user from being able to see something in your system if the condition is present.
 Vivian Larsen: Um, so I'm gonna share my- screen real quick. And for the sake of today's demo, um, what I'm showing is I'm showing a- Thank you.
 Vivian Larsen: In this where no search lock exists in the case of jobs. Um, so in this case for users- deserves. A hiring manager login group in our test site here has no search locks configured, and I can tell that because this is empty.
 Vivian Larsen: Um, Um and in this case, um, the parent manager, which is a different group for the sake of today's demo also has no search locks.
 Vivian Larsen: What does it look like if there is a search lock present? And why is it relevant? So in this case, I'm gonna go show a recruiting workflow.
 Vivian Larsen: So search lock. Ah, come on. thank Thank you. Thank you. . . . Uhh, sometimes it's goofy. So this is what a search lock looks like.
 Vivian Larsen: Um, and so in- this particular case, this hiring manager would not be able to see anyone where the candidate was last in high.
 Vivian Larsen: The hiring manager review before a custom start date range. Now, this is a funky one we were playing around in testing.
 Vivian Larsen: I don't recommend anybody build this one. Um, cause it's actually caused me a lot of pain in trying to build this demo, but it's just a concept, um, to be able to show you what a search lock looks like.
 Vivian Larsen: And so, search locks, again, they're not binary. They are one-to-one. They are strict. They do not give you any flexibility.
 Vivian Larsen: And that is actually one of the biggest complaints people have about search locks in the ISIM system. I can't have edge cases where in s- some scenario, I'm able to show someone a piece of information.
 Vivian Larsen: They do not respect dynamic filters and you can't. Do or logic just like you would be able to do in a normal report.
 Vivian Larsen: Security rules are configured per profile and security. security. Security rules are agnostic to both new items access controls and they're agnostic to search locks.
 Vivian Larsen: We'll see you there. So they respect search locks. So security rules are another layer of search locks. So this is one that you're going to find in every single one of You your systems.
 Vivian Larsen: It's in person. We're looking at the person profile. And this security rule is number one myself. So what that means is You In the background, if there is a, there is a pre-existing report written called myself and that basically means as well.
 Vivian Larsen: Where Vivian Larson's user ID is present and then if I wanted to like show or hide each one of these individuals.
 Vivian Larsen: And if you don't individual tabs or a field individually, I could based on whatever this security rules search for. for few months, Thank you.
 Vivian Larsen: parameters were set to. So if this search parameter was set to, um, in the myself, the filter point is that a location is a specific.
 Vivian Larsen: I'm to go through A specific location. I could set up a report under person search and location is Chicago and then.
 Vivian Larsen: And in that scenario when the rule is applied, hide certain fields, hide certain tabs, but security rules are field based.
 Vivian Larsen: take a look It's just a, I'm gonna shut up for a second. Any questions on these concepts before I move into new Isense Access Controls?
 Vivian Larsen: No? Thank you. Alright, Alex and Caitlin, if you could do me a favor and call out if there are any questions because I can't see the chat.
 Kaitlyn Faile: Yep,
 Vivian Larsen: definitely. Okay, so now that I've given you kind of a foundation of the core legacy permissions that you were- able to use before new items came into effect, we're gonna talk about access controls today.
 Vivian Larsen: And access controls is in- Thank you. And applicant tracking, new items. And this is something you can do. So that's a key thing.
 Vivian Larsen: And I'm it's a big kind of differentiation to keep in mind. You as a user admin have the ability to modify these reports, and you have the ability to modify these.
 Vivian Larsen: For missions, security rules, and search locks, both require the help desk to make a modification. You don't have edit access to them.
 Vivian Larsen: You can build the report for a security rule, but you need items to apply it. And then you need to go and apply all the field based permission.
 Vivian Larsen: You can not do anything in relation to search locks beyond figure out what your filter is. Those are going to be, and send it to them to build it.
 Vivian Larsen: These are built on reports. And so in this case, I have applied a. New license access control to the job profile.
 Vivian Larsen: And what that does in this case, and there's a reason I've only done the. Job profile, which I'll talk to in a second.
 Vivian Larsen: Um, but I have a pre existing report in the background and that pre existing report. Has this filter set where the cost center on the job matches the cost center.
 Vivian Larsen: Sure. On the person profile. This is a dynamic filter. And this is what's not available in any other kind of.
 Vivian Larsen: So dynamic filters are also not available in security roles. You can do. you. Or logic in security roles. You can't do dynamic filtering.
 Vivian Larsen: So keep that in mind. There's no or logic and no- I don't know what to do. Dynamic filtering and search locks.
 Vivian Larsen: There is or logic in security roles, but no dynamic filtering, but with new access, a new way to some access controls, you can do dynamic filtering.
 Vivian Larsen: So if you're not familiar with dynamic filtering, go watch my previous is now you know on dynamic filtering with we've already done a session on that in the past.
 Vivian Larsen: It's just the ability to cross reference to tables within the system. Don't. In this case, the job and the employee tab of the person profile.
 Vivian Larsen: So I have a person already set up. you And. Sorry. System being difficult. Um, so here are two.
 Vivian Larsen: Two. Two client, like, hiring manager profiles that I have set up in the system. And in the system, I have a.
 Vivian Larsen: Okay. I got my field related cost center. Equals cost center one on this profile. And in this one, I have related cost center Equals cost center two.
 Vivian Larsen: Notice in the beginning, I want you to think back. I showed. All out our program.pad. Like to there was no search lock present for jobs.
 Vivian Larsen: So there's no search lock in play here. You're dead. Compass experience you're going to see is strictly using the access controls.
 Vivian Larsen: This log in group is. Intentionally restricted. So they don't have quick search. And that is. you know, on purpose, because quick search does not respect access controls.
 Vivian Larsen: Quick search only respects the incoming cat. Umm. I'm, Quick search, and he not,
 Alex M: Uh, Faveen, you muted. You There we go.
 Vivian Larsen: Thank you. Sorry. Quick search only respects search locks. So, in the case of new eyes, access controls and trying to be very strict, I do not recommend leaving quick search on.
 Vivian Larsen: If you are in a situation where you ha- to leave quick search on, umm, you would want them to turn on a re- a feature that makes quick search respect recruiting.
 Vivian Larsen: including. Workflow search locks. Umm, and the reasons you would want to do that is you can create recruiting workflow search locks that hide people that they should not.
 Vivian Larsen: Alright, we'll that. Okay. Um, so essentially, if you're looking at this, each one of these requisitions, each one of these jobs in the background is.
 Vivian Larsen: is set for this user, um, where the related cost center is cost center, too. Whereas, if I go back and log in at.
 Vivian Larsen: Has the other user. Admin user user management. Oh, we caught. If I go back and I go in as the other user, um, hi.
 Vivian Larsen: Hiring Manager 1, this user, they're in Cost Center 1, if I log in as them. and the other one was Cost Center 2, they see a wholly different set of jobs.
 Vivian Larsen: So notice all of these other jobs. There's no search lock driving this. In the background, the search itself is not driving this.
 Vivian Larsen: The search itself is- Simply looking at hiring manager and location, it's not looking at related cost center, so it's not being done by the search itself.
 Vivian Larsen: And this user has no ability to go see anything that is not theirs. Umm, so there's one other thing I want to show you, what- What happens when I try to click on something that is restricted for me, so for instance, I have this done intentionally.
 Vivian Larsen: Finally. Umm, when I try to look at something where the access control kicks in, this is the message I'm going to get.
 Vivian Larsen: Your request could not be processed. So, essentially, the user is still able to see the base information at the- front level.
 Vivian Larsen: They're still able to see that I have a junior spouse, a sales specialist, and I have a senior sales specialist.
 Vivian Larsen: I have all these jobs. There is one applicant, but in this particular search and the way that I have this search, new items, access search configured.
 Vivian Larsen: figured. They can't actually get into the job itself, but it does not restrict their ability to see other types of searches because- this is only applying to a job search.
 Vivian Larsen: So if we had new candidates, which I do have a test user with new candidates, hold on, One,
 Alex M: Uhm. Greg asked, are we supposed to see jobs listed on the screen right now?
 Vivian Larsen: Yeah, am I not sharing? Sorry. Okay.
 Alex M: Uh, we see the job search screen, but no search results. results.
 Vivian Larsen: I might have frozen. Hold on, let me stop sharing. Cause I'm not in, I'm nowhere near that screen
 Alex M: anymore. Okay.
 Kaitlyn Faile: Hey, your cursor wasn't moving. ring.
 Vivian Larsen: I am also having internet
 Alex M: problems. There we go. Okay. Now we see them. Okay. So this hiring manager
 Vivian Larsen: is in a different logging group. All right. right. Then the hiring manager I've been testing with before they're in the parent logging group.
 Vivian Larsen: And this parent logging group does not have. I love it. Any new items access controls set up. So we're gonna cancel.
 Vivian Larsen: Hold on. Save. Thank you. So, what? What? Did you see? I'm wondering if my example has gotten
 Alex M: lost. It was frozen on the job search screen.
 Vivian Larsen: Okay. All right. So without the access controls, this is what the user is able to see. They're able to go in.
 Vivian Larsen: They're able to see all of the people that would be associated with their job. Umm, let me pick a job with candidates associated with.
 Vivian Larsen: So they're able to see candidates in the statuses that are not hidden from them. This is what the user would be able to see without the access.
 Vivian Larsen: In the case of the access controls being configured. Thank you. Here it goes. What they would be able to see.
 Vivian Larsen: And this is just a very, like, basic example for the sake of today's demo. Well. Is they would not be able to see the profile itself.
 Vivian Larsen: Now, I know that probably seems like. Thanks. Why would I want to do that? Let's just think of an example where I only want.
 Vivian Larsen: I want to show the manager the details of their job. I just want them to see a list of the number of jobs, but they don't really need to be able to go.
 Vivian Larsen: And make any changes or see any of the hundred people that have applied to the position. This is what's going to happen.
 Vivian Larsen: They're. They're not allowed to go in and see the profile. So if you did a search lock, they just wouldn't be able to see the job lists at all.
 Vivian Larsen: The numbers wouldn't show up. They couldn't. They couldn't. See, I have 20 jobs. Whereas in access controls, I'm restricting their access to the job itself if the cost center matches their costs.
 Vivian Larsen: You could modify that in the way that that new ISM's access control is set up. So I'm. Good. I did this for the sake of showing today's demo.
 Vivian Larsen: Um, where are you? New. New ISM. . . hm job profile. So right now I am restricting their ability to see information when the cost center is the same.
 Vivian Larsen: As their cost center. If I change this to is not, overwrite my existing template and save. If this is still configured in the background where it, uh, in new license access controls, applicant tracking new license.
 Vivian Larsen: . . For this manager hiring manager login group we have this one applied. It is also very important to note that show new license.
 Vivian Larsen: The systems toggle is off for this user group because we don't want them getting out of new items because then they can see stuff they shouldn't.
 Vivian Larsen: If I go back. Back over to user user management and log back in as that hiring manager. Sure. Now that I've modified the search parameters, hopefully it does keep up.
 Vivian Larsen: Cause sometimes it takes a minute. Now I should, from where I'll please be able to see. No? It didn't work.
 Vivian Larsen: Um, so this is probably just a refresh issue, but now where cost center is not my cost center at the experience.
 Vivian Larsen: I would expect is that it will let me see the profiles. But in this case, there's no search lock stopping me from seeing any of the information and of the jobs that I currently have open.
 Vivian Larsen: However, it's not letting me get past, um, information where the, um. one. I'm drawing a blank here where the jobs, um, are not available.
 Vivian Larsen: So let me pause a second. Any questions?
 Alex M: questions. But Tonya mentioned she said we use this for cross-business candidate visibility. So we know if someone is interviewing with two of our businesses at the same time.
 Alex M: And what stage? Stay tuned. They're at, but one business can't see the specifics of the other business's jobs. That's very interesting.
 Alex M: Okay, use case. And then- Earlier, Ariel asked about- she said, uh, very interested in the config of quick search to respect recruiting workflow search logs.
 Alex M: Could we start- Back to that at some point?
 Vivian Larsen: So I do not have the ability to make those changes- without a helpdesk case, but it is a function that you can request for the helpdesk.
 Vivian Larsen: It is, um, simply a checkbox that they check in the background. That says, same as recruiting workflow. And so you would just simply put in a request for them to make this respect.
 Vivian Larsen: I would also, in that case, limit your, your dropdowns here. Because the one that it will affect most is. is the person.
 Vivian Larsen: So then person would no longer be a person profile search where, for instance, I could, I could search for a.
 Vivian Larsen: I see a level executive and go see their employee tab and go see their offer and all that. In that case, it would be.
 Vivian Larsen: See ya. You're you in the uh, respecting whatever you have built for recruiting workflow search. So if you had a recruiting workflow search lock set, um, that did not let- them see anything that wasn't in this specific geographic location, for example, then that recruiting Pretty.
 Vivian Larsen: Workflow search lock would be respected when the person did a quick search. Instead of it just being wide open to any person.
 Vivian Larsen: Umm, and the difference between a person and a recruiting workflow search is you have job data in a recruiting workflow search.
 Vivian Larsen: So, if I wanted to do something that respected, that I was the hiring manager on a specific set of jobs.
 Vivian Larsen: Thank you. In a department, or in a division, or however you have, whatever data you have in your system, that search can be built off.
 Vivian Larsen: Of where division equals this division. What it can't do, and this is where dynamic filtering comes into play. Bye. I can't do dynamic filtering in search locks.
 Vivian Larsen: I can't do word division equals my division. So in that case, you'd have to have a different. Logging group for each individual search lock for that kind of architecture to work right.
 Vivian Larsen: Does that answer your question?
 Alex M: Errol said, so the applications for creating a workflow search lock wouldn't affect job search and quick search?
 Vivian Larsen: No. Thank you. Two different, two different searches. So you would need a separate job search lock to affect recruiting work.
 Vivian Larsen: a which is why we almost always tell you to turn off job search. In this case. We'll see you it would only respect, it would convert this to a recruiting workflow search.
 Vivian Larsen: Insta. and kind of a person profile search.
 Alex M: Great, she says thank you.
 Vivian Larsen: Alright, so let me. See you. This is what I was trying to show. So this is a user that does not have the search locks applied, or the, um, new items, access control.
 Vivian Larsen: control. applied. This user has two new kidded. It's, this is a recruiting workflow search. This would still work for the new ISEM's access controls that I had configured.
 Vivian Larsen: figure. The only profile I was applying that to was a job. In this case, I would still be able to show my hiring manager here.
 Vivian Larsen: you're your two new people that were submitted to manager if they were in that login group. It without the access.
 Vivian Larsen: Let's Control. What it will show them is the full profile. So the big difference between. Tweet. New isomes access controls.
 Vivian Larsen: And search locks. Is they can still find the information if you set the. Up a dashboard report that allows them to see it.
 Vivian Larsen: You have total control in that case over what you show them. Using dashboard design. So it leans very heavily into.
 Vivian Larsen: to. You having the appropriate dashboard design for your users to do what they need to do. And then it prevents them from going rogue.
 Vivian Larsen: We'll see you and searching for information that they should not see. And then it adds another layer of, you know, if for some reason, you added.
 Vivian Larsen: added. That's executive software, um, position to this person's, um, dashboard, but it isn't in their cost center. better. for whatever reason.
 Vivian Larsen: They would still be able to see the job, but they wouldn't be able to get to hear. They would get that screen we- saw earlier once that you don't have access to this information.
 Vivian Larsen: So that's the big difference between a search lock. Search lock wouldn't even show it to them on this screen. In 3...
 Vivian Larsen: It would be data that doesn't exist. Whereas access controls lets them see some basic information, but prevents them from seeing, further data within the profile.
 Vivian Larsen: So that's as far as, I think I can go with that. All And today's configuration and anything else. Any other questions?
 Vivian Larsen: Thank you for your patience. Nope. Go once. and we'll see
 Alex M: Okay, if not, Vivian, thank you so much as always for that deep dive. Greg, did you have something else you can run camp?
 Alex M: Thank you. Nope, okay, great. Alright, thank you so much and, I'm gonna share my screen now.
 Alex M: Hold on a second. And I'm great at my mouse support today. Come on. Basic. Computer use. Okay, there we go.
 Alex M: Alright, so that, now you know, in addition to all the other ones, you can find a I don't know. In our courses section, Ever-Growing Library of Delightfully Obscure Isoms topics for your, Enjoyment.
 Alex M: And we will now head over to our Isoms channel. Let's see what kind of questions we have in here. So, uhh, Uh, Ariel, you had a question about full recruitment access for external third-party users and Isoms.
 Alex M: the
 Ariel Hsieh (she/her): Hello, yes, this is Ariel from Bizat. Uhm, yeah, I'm posted because I had a question come through about essentially giving, d e Um, stomach agency users, the ability to process candidates full cycle I n sn'n.
 Ariel Hsieh (she/her): Um, and s. S. So this is, I guess specific to a potential contract where there would be a very, very high volume of, umm, of, higher t.
 Ariel Hsieh (she/her): And, uhh, one of the new TA directors basically said that they had done something similar with Workday Hire. And I just kind of wanted I wanted to get some feedback from people who might have done something similar or had to ask them across our table.
 Ariel Hsieh (she/her): Like, I know Caitlin said that she did something similar. Um, so just kind of like, you know, experience what to consider, you know, to propose, like, what this would- look like, um, and then also, you know, considerations for the future.
 Ariel Hsieh (she/her): I didn't- I forgot to put this in my post, but of course, like, this would be- have to- be included, like, with our, you know, AAP for LSCCP and, you know, it included in- in it potentially- eventually.
 Ariel Hsieh (she/her): May or may not be, you know, included in- or need to be excluded from, like, TA metrics and reporting, so just wanted to see if- anyone how to make experience with this.
 Vivian Larsen: I've done this a couple of different times. There's a couple of different ways- to do it. Umm, if your goal is for them to move somebody through the workflow, I wouldn't start with the agency login.
 Vivian Larsen: I'll get a group type, because it's too restricted, and it's very hard to change the permissions in order to give them the- so we need to move somebody through the workflow.
 Vivian Larsen: I would start with your limited hiring manager groups and put them under that. Umm, because then you can control which workflow statuses they are able to see and take action on and modify.
 Vivian Larsen: Umm, umm, it's- it'll just be a little easier for you from a set up permissions perspective to start with one of the limited hiring manager groups.
 Vivian Larsen: Then it w- with the active agency group.
 Ariel Hsieh (she/her): Right. Yeah, I was actually thinking it would- originally that it would be under, like, the full access- recruitment, but I guess, at your point, they don't really need- they don't need surge, they don't need all that stuff, they just need that dashboard of their- wrecks and their people and then be
 Ariel Hsieh (she/her): able to move them through. So,
 Vivian Larsen: uh, yeah, that's a good point. Search is probably the- a place where folks get into trouble with this kind of configuration.
 Vivian Larsen: The best piece of advice that I've run into over several- Oh, wow. I don't of this. It's just don't give it to them.
 Vivian Larsen: They don't have any reason for it. They don't need it. Um, give them the ability to build. You've got to build them a compromise.
 Vivian Larsen: They have dashboard that gives them sourcing searches. So things like radius search searches and, um. to you. Okay. All right.
 Vivian Larsen: The things like searches with specific keywords where they can modify. So don't take away search access in the background. around.
 Vivian Larsen: Um, but you're going to take away their ability to write reports like search person and quick search in that permission.
 Vivian Larsen: So essentially. If they go into a search that's preconfigured that has a radius search, they'll be able to modify the search filters so that they can put in a different radio.
 Vivian Larsen: And the um, are a different zip code, or a different keyword, but they won't be able to write a new report with different filters overall.
 Vivian Larsen: So they'll be able to, a lot of the keyword section, but not the filters section. Make sense? Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
 Ariel Hsieh (she/her): I'm one. Okay. All right. Thanks, for uhm, cool. I would actually also love to know. I know, um, Vivian, if you have experience, okay.
 Ariel Hsieh (she/her): Thank you. I would love to schedule an session with either one of you next week, but I cannot remember where to find that in it.
 Ariel Hsieh (she/her): I say I.
 Kaitlyn Faile: How do I schedule
 Ariel Hsieh (she/her): an post? Okay.
 Vivian Larsen: Okay. It might be a good time guys to shameless plug the on-demand consulting.
 Alex M: Ooh, sorry. I had a, uh, New York, uh, apart. I'm back. Are we finished with this one?
 Kaitlyn Faile: Yeah. Good. I can. You I got it.
 Alex M: Okay, great.
 Kaitlyn Faile: So we offer on-demand consulting so you can navigate to. Thank you. The pin post on the ISIMS discussion where you typically post your questions and can you close this question?
 Kaitlyn Faile: Alex?
 Alex M: I can, if I should simply. Oh, geez. Oh, okay. There we go. So it's right here at the top of this channel.
 Alex M: Right here. Boom.
 Ariel Hsieh (she/her): Oh, embarrassing. Thank you.
 Kaitlyn Faile: All good. I'm not a. I'll get you 15 minutes with either myself, Vivian, or Ty, whoever is available first. So, find the time that works for Thank you for your view and then come chat with us one on one.
 Ariel Hsieh (she/her): Thank you. Welcome.
 Kaitlyn Faile: Welcome.
 Alex M: All right. You know what happened? So I've been decorating. I've been really into decorating. And I've got this buzzer on my wall, which is the- bane of my existence.
 Alex M: That's what you hear. We don't have a- we don't have anybody to take packages. So the UPS guys on the butts are all day long.
 Alex M: And things really ugly. And so I painted over it. Same color as the Walks. I wanted to kind of go away.
 Alex M: Uh, and, uh, unfortunately, when I did that, um, the paint froze. I was the buzzer button, so I hit the buzzer, and then it was buzzing constantly.
 Alex M: I had to dislodge it. This, this is, this is the- Yeah, this is the fun of living in old funky New York City Apartments.
 Alex M: Okay, so I missed the tail end of that question, but I assume we're done with arrows- Is that
 Vivian Larsen: right? Mhm.
 Alex M: Awesome. Amanda.
 Amanda Trammel: Not really a question. Question per se, but, umm, we're starting to dive into Microsoft Co-pilot and- and rolling out some, um, extensive licenses across our corporate departments, and we're- I was posed the question by- one of our leaders about whether or not, um, there is any, you know, potential benefit
 Amanda Trammel: to- or exploring connecting Microsoft Co-pilot with ISEMs. My gut instinct is, well, they're developing their own internal AI, why would they- I want external AI connected, uh, but I wanted to make sure I was doing my due diligence and throwing questions out there to people in this community.
 Alex M: I
 Amanda Trammel: don't anticipate there being a
 Alex M: lot of- interview. Uh, to what end? Like, what sort of things are you hoping to do with co-pilot and ISIMs?
 Amanda Trammel: Umm, honestly, it's likely gonna be very similar to the functions that ISIMs is trying to develop with, you know, with their internal tools.
 Amanda Trammel: Umm, like the job description and interview, um, questions tool and that sort of thing. Umm, likely going- to, you know, if we can get it connected and will likely explore those use cases and maybe even potentially building out our own kind of um, I don't want to steal their phrase, but the, the Talent
 Amanda Trammel: Cloud AI, the, um. on. This. So, what's, what's it called? Basically, you get a rating, um, as far as like, how, uh, well, uh, candidate matches to the job.
 Amanda Trammel: job.
 Vivian Larsen: That's,
 Amanda Trammel: she's gonna get match
 Alex M: score. Can they matching
 Amanda Trammel: you? Yeah. Um, just, you know, so that we have some control. control. and insight into what's driving the scores and that sort of thing.
 Amanda Trammel: So, still very, very early in the process and- very, um, open to ideas and-and input.
 Vivian Larsen: For the jobs portion, they already have their own- You version of
 Amanda Trammel: co-pilot,
 Vivian Larsen: which I think is actually built on co-pilot as a backbone. So, um, I couldn't be wrong- . . about this, but I remember having conversations with some of the dev team as they were building it, um, where it will compare your job description to other job description.
 Vivian Larsen: The descriptions that are similar and then give you suggestions about the kind of job description post.
 Amanda Trammel: Absolutely.
 Vivian Larsen: Yeah, that's already there.
 Amanda Trammel: We have that. But we were hoping to kind of, um, streamline it and focus in on, like, our brand standards and our specific.
 Amanda Trammel: Perfect. Um, ya know, architectures and- and requirements and things like that. Um, internally. So, I love that it suggests ya know.
 Amanda Trammel: So, I based on other jobs that are posted globally, but hoping to kind of build a tool that's looking at internal resources specifically.
 Alex M: It's already interesting. So, Patrick, what are you, what are you hoping to do?
 Patrick C IW: So, right now, you know, we're allowed, to use GPT for some of our stuff that we do, like on a weekly basis, I export some hiring data.
 Patrick C IW: Yeah. Or a hiring manager and I have it build a, uh, HTML coded interactive dashboard that they love to have with their.
 Patrick C IW: And I don't know if I'm going to have that ability to do that in co-pilot after January 1st. and I asked for, you know, like, a waver on this and they said, nope, we're going to have our own AI.
 Patrick C IW: There's no reason for us to be using an- external generative AI and I'm like, well, we may lose that product that I deliver on a weekly basis.
 Alex M: So,
 Patrick C IW: we'll see- What happens after January
 Alex M: 1st? Very interesting. Thank you so Anybody else doing something like that? Very, very interesting. The companies are looking to hit in this direction, come.
 Alex M: Yeah. I'm trying to do bespoke things that are outpacing the pace at which the vendors can adopt this technology and customize it adequately.
 Alex M: And providing more transparency into what the AI is actually doing.
 Angela Biehl: Yeah, that's the key to
 Amanda Trammel: the transparency into the algorithms. for them. that's driving it and then having a little bit of control over, you know, the moving cogs within the algorithm, that sort of thing.
 Amanda Trammel: . . You . . I'll keep you all posted on how it goes. .
 Alex M: . Please do. Was there somebody else weighing in? . .
 Angela Biehl: Uh, this is Angela, and we- . . We had built a really neat, sort of, AI sandbox thing that was . . . providing some really unique .
 Angela Biehl: . . . for our recruiters. We would say, you know, how would you adjust this job post to make it more clear that it's in a manufacturing environment instead of an R&D perspective?
 Angela Biehl: And what would a candidate look for that's applying for this job? What would they specifically see on Glassdoor in regarding two related positions?
 Angela Biehl: And we would do different things about targeted Boolean searches. And so we had a little AI platform that had multiple different aspects that we could put one job post into and it would run all of these tasks for us and.
 Angela Biehl: That's it. And when we went to co-pilot, we were, we were no longer able to utilize those and have it quite been able to bring them together.
 Angela Biehl: It's the same. I think we had it initially.
 Alex M: Got it.
 Angela Biehl: Well,-
 Alex M: Well keep us posted on what you learned. It's a very, very interesting topic, Amanda. We had, you know, we had one of the tool that we, that we shared, uhh, technical.
 Alex M: I went back to them for, with some of those questions around, uhh, transparency and. and how you answer the. So what I did is, as I mentioned, that one of our members had looked at Power BI's AI functionality.
 Alex M: Last time. And decided not to go with it. And I was asking them like, what do you, what do you say enterprise customers who, uh, are.
 Alex M: Looking for a level of transparency and accuracy that is, um, needs to be clearly auditable. All good. Clearly, to find, uh, I'll let you know what they come back with.
 Alex M: All right. Okay.
 Vivian Larsen: little
 Alex M: note on the topic. Um. Mm hmm. Just because, again, have friends in this space.
 Vivian Larsen: We're in the very early adoption stage of these kinds of technologies, but one of the things that'll- open AI and Gemini are currently looking into is an enterprise type of deployment, uhm, where each individual organization- conversation.
 Vivian Larsen: Bye. . Besides their own version of the LLM that is housed internally on internal servers and runs behind firewalls and isn't allowed to go out to- the web and search external information and only searches internal resources.
 Vivian Larsen: Uhm, and then that your IT team has the ability to control. tree. Just what different kinds of searches. That's, that's what's coming.
 Vivian Larsen: That's the long term monetizing model that most of them are. our lives. We're looking to deploy. We're individual enterprises by their own LOM.
 Vivian Larsen: And that's what all this data center building is, is being built for. Um. But anyway, just a little, kind of do your own research on that.
 Vivian Larsen: That's where this is going.
 Alex M: Thank you. Thank you. Alright, the floor is open. Who else has a question today? Patrick? better. Go ahead.
 Patrick C IW: Uh, so this is not necessarily a deep question. We're having an issue. You where our hiring managers, they get the job right, Bill.
 Patrick C IW: And then they decide after they've routed it for- approval. Oh, I wanted to go back and change this. And they're discovering that they can't change it because it's been routed for approval.
 Patrick C IW: Is there a way- way around that? Because bill rates change or details change on the fly in the world of GovCon and- and they get these changes after they've already submitted it to be routed for approval.
 Patrick C IW: Is there a way to kind of empower them or are they just going to have to come right back? The ad man, to make sure that those details get updated.
 Patrick C IW: Security
 Vivian Larsen: rule? You could build where when the job is in the approval- of folders, certain fields are editable, and certain fields are not.
 Vivian Larsen: So there- there is definitely a way for you to address that. Uhm, uhh, the question is, it's all or nothing.
 Vivian Larsen: Like, they either have the ability to edit something or they don't. Did just a I don't I'm not going and in some cases it's not appropriate for them to be able to edit stuff.
 Vivian Larsen: So it's it's a very gray area type of. I love you. If you're giving the ability to edit something when something isn't in the approved folder, no matter what, whether it's approved or not.
 Vivian Larsen: Uh, or whether something's changed or not, um, that scenario will always apply. That permission is always gonna be there. Um.
 Vivian Larsen: So there's a examples of And then there's I'm just so what is usually recommended in these cases is that they resubmit it for additional approval.
 Vivian Larsen: So essentially, the word they tell the recruiter they need to change something, we move it back into the pending approval folder, and then
 Patrick C IW: it's
 Vivian Larsen: submitted for approval again after the changes are made, because now you kind broken your chain of approval.
 Patrick C IW: And see, that's what I want to recommend because there's a few hiring managers that, Like you said, they want to go rogue, so to speak, and they want to have the ability to edit whatever they want as the approval process.
 Patrick C IW: I'm like, that's not good for process, that's not good for auditing, and, you know, and also making sure that. But the data is cleaned as well, so I'm with you, I think they should just have to resubmit a new one that way.
 Patrick C IW: you know, all the changes are annotated.
 Vivian Larsen: So one other thing I have seen done is I have seen a jobs form created. I'm excited to see where a, um, it's post approval jobs form where essentially it's all of the different fields, um, for the job itself.
 Vivian Larsen: Cheers. Cheers. Cheers. Um, and the manager can go in and modify a form that has, um, information. So the, the job, and it's an original instance, sta- is approved.
 Vivian Larsen: The form has its own approval process because forms of approval is something that's a feature that's seldom used. And then the form gets approved.
 Vivian Larsen: And then somebody goes back in and manually edits the job itself, um, to match the form. Um, there is a way to sync the form with the job.
 Vivian Larsen: Where the form can backwrite the information to the, the job itself, but it's the same argument, then the managers can just edit, edit whatever they want to.
 Vivian Larsen: There's, there's no way for the form to hold off on sinking the fields before it's approved. Um, so if you need to be- be able to, um, allow them to edit information after the job is approved, but want to keep the original record, um, you can- create a jobs form and have that jobs form approved and then
 Vivian Larsen: pull information in later portions of your process. Yes. From the jobs form instead of the job details tab or in addition to the jobs details tab.
 Vivian Larsen: Hmm.
 Patrick C IW: Okay. I'm gonna. Oh no. I'm gonna look at that then. Thank
 Vivian Larsen: you. Yeah.
 Alex M: All right. Quick. Uh, now. You know, if you're looking at another ATS, we can join you on some- of those discovery calls.
 Alex M: This is something that 50 and I were talking about earlier. Uh, we don't take referral revenue. We are agnostic in terms- of what solution you go with.
 Alex M: But as we know, sales calls, cast solutions in the most favorable light. And- Umm. We think it could be super helpful to have Vivian specifically on some of those calls with you.
 Alex M: So if you're looking at another vendor and they- are selling you a dream, and you really, really want to, uhh, make sure that they are accountable to things that are gonna matter for you.
 Alex M: You. Reach out and let us know. This is something that we're thinking about doing and would love to do with any of our SAI members out there.
 Alex M: I also- dropped an article in chat here. This is the new one that I was talking about. I would love the- I would love feedback from the community in what you think about this.
 Alex M: So it's all- I already blogged, but if you have feedback on it, um, please DM me. Let me know what you think if there's anything missing or- Vivian, can you talk a little bit about how- Oh, you came up with the content for the article?
 Alex M: What sort of ideas you want to bring into it?
 Vivian Larsen: The main question that I run into, umm- and have run into on a number of occasions with customers across multiple ATSs that I've worked in in the past, is how do I make- sure I'm not gaining functionality in one area and losing functionality in another that I need.
 Vivian Larsen: Um, and also, how do I make sure? and that my candidate experience is not going to change. Um, so what this is, is it's a list of questions for you to ask to.
 Vivian Larsen: Thank you. Um, Workday specifically, if you're looking to potentially evaluate Workday Recruiter, um, that essentially kind of focuses on some of the things that are known weaknesses around Workday.
 Vivian Larsen: Um, their candidate experience consistently gets a lot of bad reviews. Um, so there's some really deep d- five questions of that you can ask the sales rep around their candidate experience and what their plans are for their candidate experience and how you can modify it and customize it for- yourself
 Vivian Larsen: . So the thinking in general behind this article was, let me give you a list of potential questions to ask for day that are often- and overlooked or gotchas, um, that customers have come back to us in the past and kind of told us that they wish they'd known at the time that they were going through an
 Vivian Larsen: RFP process. Um, to ask. So, this is just, you don't have to ask them all. Find the ones that are the most relevant to you and then ask those.
 Vivian Larsen: Um, in your RFP process or ask them as your sales reps are going through demos. Yeah.
 Alex M: Alright, thank you. Floor is open for questions. Who else has a question today? Bye. No question too big or small, Kathy, go ahead.
 Alex M: Go
 Kathy Nava: Um, okay. So I wanna just have a c- Well, it kind of just- I wanna kinda gauge, umm, out there in the community- community.
 Kathy Nava: Um, for those that are- are working or have applied the linked in- applied connect, how that is going- because I have- I have a concern because it says, like, for clients that have an existing linked in RSC, which we do, we must- move the linked and job post setting, right?
 Kathy Nava: So and then once, you know, we know that once that- that changes made, we're- not able to add job postings back.
 Kathy Nava: So like once it's gone, it's gone. Um, and I know that because apply network their means of creating. They're going to push it through apply connect.
 Kathy Nava: So, uhm, going forward, that's the route that they want to take. But my- My question is, is that our concern is because they said once you take it off, it's gone.
 Kathy Nava: on. And we have multiple LinkedIn accounts because we have different regions. We have, like, a link, we have a, um.
 Kathy Nava: Thanks for Bye Uh, LinkedIn for our AMEA group, our APAC, our India, El Salvador, US, Canada, etc. So we have multiple, like, accounts.
 Kathy Nava: And I, and I did, like, a gap analysis to kind of decide, like, between our current R, to see one apply versus applying, you know, network connect.
 Kathy Nava: And it seems like the, integration for LinkedIn Apply Connect, it's just more extensive. If you have, like, the multiple It's a pom-bom.
 Kathy Nava: You know, like the multiple counts, which we do. Um, but I was testing it and on LinkedIn and, like, currently, right now, when someone applies to our company, like on LinkedIn, um, we do have that, um, the one, and apply button.
 Kathy Nava: So, it just takes some, it takes them automatically to our career portal, which has the privacy information that ee, So, all of the standard stuff you would normally see in your career portal.
 Kathy Nava: I'm kind of questioning, like, well, why, what would be the benefit of, of going through LinkedIn Apply Network Connect, if I'm going to have to rebuild all of that into, to, you know, apply connect.
 Kathy Nava: So, I'm just trying to figure out, like, and then I'm just kind of like I said. Larry of turning it off.
 Kathy Nava: So, I wanted to see how anyone else has done it. Um, I mean, I want to test it. And with one region, but I'm just stuck on that.
 Kathy Nava: Once you turn it off, you can't get it back. And so, I don't want to. Turn it off, thinking, okay, well, let me just test it for one of our regions.
 Kathy Nava: And then all of a sudden, I can't get it back. And then I have to push it through for all of it.
 Kathy Nava: And it's just. I just want to see what, like, what you all have experienced if you all have encountered that same concern.
 Kathy Nava: So I just kind of want to. Put that out there. Okay. Cause I was look, I was looking just to add, I was looking that it seems like once you start building.
 Kathy Nava: We'll be back. It seems like I would almost be rebuilding exactly what's in our career portal. Into the Applied Network Connect.
 Kathy Nava: and that. Umm, I know that they say that, you know, with the Applied Network Connect, you know. out. So you have better data quality, recruiter efficiency, but it also says with the Applied One, um, the Applied One Button feature candidates go through it.
 Kathy Nava: There's, there's hot, there's a higher drop off. . . . . So, like, candidates go through the ATS Apply Flow. So, it's, it seems like that part is more beneficial because It's, um, people tend to complete the application through the one Apply versus the Apply.
 Kathy Nava: Why? I network connect because there's just more involved. Um. And that's just my concern. So I don't know if anybody else.
 Kathy Nava: Has that same concern or same issue? What's their, what's their experience with change? Okay.
 Alex M: Okay, Vivien, didn't you have a friend at ISM's who joined us once, who, Spoke to apply network on that level.
 Vivian Larsen: Oops, Deb. Yeah, I can, if you write it up, if you write up your specific question, I can forward it, but I don't have- I an answer for you on this one at
 Kathy Nava: all.
 Vivian Larsen: Okay, yeah. I'll, I'll,
 Kathy Nava: I'll add it. I'll add the question to it. My question to- You
 Alex M: Great. Yeah, post that in the ISM's channel. Okay. I'll you in finance for you.
 Kathy Nava: Thank you.
 Alex M: Yep. . Does anybody else on the call have a thought on that one? Okay. We have time for another question. for Uh, Greg, you had said, oh, see some chat happening here.
 Alex M: Uh, audio is broken, but, uhm, we're NYC employer to enable. people. Any AI and Isums, we need to have a third party auditor audit Isums AI.
 Alex M: Has anyone gone through a similar process in their? Thank I'm hoping to hear about your process and your auditor. Feel free to reach out, blah, blah, blah.
 Alex M: Umm, yeah, auditing Isums. on the that A.I. Interesting. Has anybody done that? Can you audit a vendor's AI? Huh. We talked a little bit about auditing AI last week and didn't come up with a whole lot.
 Alex M: Umm, I put a post in general discussion about auditing print. Exposed in general that can be applied to your results.
 Alex M: But yeah, there certainly seems like there is a need for this. I appreciate I'm not sure how that works. Thanks.
 Alex M: Well, there's your answer, Craig. Ha ha, sorry. Yeah. Yeah. Let's. I don't know, just uh, to
 Kathy Nava: add to that. that tip. I don't know if this is, like, the same, but we also were questioning, um, in regards to, like, the roll fit.
 Kathy Nava: it. Um, but the waiting logic about it, like, how was it rating the scores? um.
 Alex M: Amen. They wanted to know what it was pulling from,
 Kathy Nava: um, and they suggested that, You know, what, at least they suggested that we can have a meeting with their data science team to kind of
 Alex M: discuss, like, the way, meeting priorities and,
 Kathy Nava: and what we're looking for because it was just, well, it's- it's pulling from the job description, it's pulling from the, you know, like, their experience, but, on my HR, we- they wanted a deeper dive, like, well, what is factoring that behind it?
 Kathy Nava: Um, and they just, I, since couldn't really get- of those details. So, the next conversation was, by our customer success manager, is that they- can connect us to their Isam's DataSource team to have those further deeper discussions.
 Kathy Nava: So, I don't know if that- I kind of like them audit to that, but
 Alex M: just just sharing. Mm-hmm. Tonya shared this- article from Isims. And this other one too. Ah, okay. Craig, this might be helpful.
 Alex M: Beautiful. So, it's a place to start. All right. Trust arc. Atlassian. All right, got time for one more question. Who else has a question?
 Alex M: Question today. Okay. Any more questions today? Going once. Going twice. All right, folks. We'll be here next week at 1.30 p.m.
 Alex M: Eastern, uh, for a holiday edition of. and S.A.I. Great to see you as always. Hope you have a restful and restorative weekend.
 Alex M: See you next time.