iCIMS Hacks: Conditional Logic vs I-Form Myths (12/5/25)

Admins share real-world iCIMS takeaways. A global enterprise tested Power BI AI and said “we’re not satisfied with the results.” Vivian reviews conditional field logic limits, noting “You cannot use salary fields.” Kaitlyn clarifies conditional logic is different from I form dependencies and uses separate settings. 

These conversations reflect the kind of practical, peer-driven learning that happens every week inside the SAI community.

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Transcript

Alex M: welcome everybody into System Admin Insights. My name is Alex and I am so happy to see you here. As always, this is a highlight of my week.
 Alex M: And I think I can speak on behalf of the IRD team as well. We all just love being here with you and talking I sims.
 Alex M: Let's go ahead and get started with a little gratitude. If you have something that's grateful for, I'm sure you do, put it in chat.
 Alex M: I am very grateful for the IRD team today. IRD team has just been amazing this week. So thank you everybody.
 Alex M: Let's go to chat and see what is coming in and the way of gratitude. Galen says snow days. Yeah, boy, how I love snow days when I was a kid.
 Alex M: First snow in Virginia says Daniela. Now he can be done. Terry says grateful to not be traveling. Yeah, I hear that.
 Alex M: Terry, I convinced family to come to New York. It's an easy sell. There's so many fun things to do here, right?
 Alex M: Very, very nice. Patrick says, grateful, still football season, all right. Townsend says grateful for being able to stay warm during these insanely cold days.
 Alex M: Indeed, indeed. All right. Next slide, please. Thanks, everybody. We are recording session, just a reminder. We will post them all to the circle so that you can find them.
 Alex M: The transcripts from these calls also get put into circles so that you can use the AI search to find topics that we've discussed.
 Alex M: whenever we do a, now you know session, we also heal those off and put them in the courses area. So all paid members have access to these courses, which are delightfully obscure items topics that your husband or wife or partner do not want to hear you talk about.
 Alex M: But we do. So enjoy. They're really, really fun. Let's see, the transcript already said that. Next slide, please. Agenda, agenda, internet, outage
 Kaitlyn Faile: discussion.
 Alex M: I didn't update that. Okay, so you're going to talk about CFL, right? Yes. Okay, great. So that is not true.
 Alex M: Instead, we're going to talk about CFL, and then we're going to go to everybody's questions in circle. I have a few announcements.
 Alex M: If you want to stay behind, talk about something that you learned today, you're more than welcome to. And with that, one of my favorite things and items and in life really is conditional field logic.
 Alex M: And one of my favorite things is to discover on websites that I'm using that somebody has not set it up correctly.
 Alex M: It amuses me to know. And conditional field logic is one of those intermediate to advanced things that really can give you a lot of value out of items.
 Alex M: Caitlin
 Kaitlyn Faile: is going to lead a conversation with us about her insights into conditional field logic and with that, take it away, Caitlin.
 Kaitlyn Faile: Yes. So earlier this week, I had the opportunity to work with a client setting up conditional field logic from scratch.
 Kaitlyn Faile: So getting into really what goes into planning that out before you even open the ticket and the specific formatting how the logic should be set up.
 Kaitlyn Faile: They want it in a spreadsheet, they want you to use, of course, as always, the node IDs, so the numbers of each of the actual fields names, instead of just the label that you have on there, they want like JCF 2012.
 Kaitlyn Faile: And if you want that field to be populated based on something, you would create a column. And if you want it to show or hide, you can use ones or zeros to communicate what you want the response to be after each
 Alex M: of those selections are made. But basically, it
 Kaitlyn Faile: starts with a spreadsheet
 Alex M: as all wonderful things do.
 Kaitlyn Faile: And
 Alex M: I thought it just
 Kaitlyn Faile: starts with winging it just clicking around now. Not recommend. Oh, really? Okay.
 Alex M: Zero
 Kaitlyn Faile: out of 10 on that But winging it is not the name of the game. We are working with conditional field logic or any logic in general because also Big fan of just general logic.
 Kaitlyn Faile: So if you apply general logic to conditional field logic, it should Flow in a way that is logical I'm primarily determining what you want to do with those.
 Kaitlyn Faile: So like I said, you have the show-hide option. You have, especially on the job details tab, you have a lot more options in terms of what one selection can then cascade out into, whereas on the offer details tab, you can show and hide, but you can't make it flow quite the same.
 Kaitlyn Faile: So just something to keep in mind, but also spreadsheet organization thinking through how you want each of these situations to play out so and they're all based on lists so if you have a drop down and you want when you select that one drop down to then pre-populate certain fields on the job detail tab
 Kaitlyn Faile: , you can configure that
 Alex M: by listing it out in your spreadsheet.
 Kaitlyn Faile: So that was a fun exercise that I got to do earlier this week. What are some use cases for conditional field logic?
 Kaitlyn Faile: So in particularly organizations where their requisitions are housed in items or begin at least in items, I see that as a really popular way to configure them.
 Kaitlyn Faile: So when you create a job, if you have a job code or a specific department, or there is a certain cascade of fields that high to one specific list, That's a really good use case, so if you select this code or this abbreviation for something then it cascades into exempt, non-exempt, you can add salary
 Kaitlyn Faile: ranges like you can get really
 Alex M: granular with those,
 Vivian Larsen: I'm sorry, and it's really up to you. Vivian, what else have you seen in the conditional field logic used for?
 Vivian Larsen: I've seen conditional, so it's your the biggest places, as Caitlin already said, but I've seen conditional field logic applied are on the job creation process and then on the offer details tab.
 Vivian Larsen: So those are two probably prominent places where I've seen it done. Jessica is mentioning that she's seen it on a custom bone screen tab that they do.
 Vivian Larsen: In addition to job details, not for details. So it's been over the place, but there's some key things to think about in the way that Ison's conditional field logic is set up, gotchas, which I'm going to put in after I'll put in circle kind of like a dosendones on conditional field logic for Ison's care
 Vivian Larsen: article on it. But one of the biggest gotchas that a lot of folks I've run into when I'm trying to especially do it on the offer details tab is that it does not accept salary fields.
 Vivian Larsen: So very frequently people will be like, yeah, I want to show or hide a specific salary field type in the course of setting this up.
 Vivian Larsen: So for instance, like cola, if there's like a salary field type where it's used dollars a year. And you know per year, or at per month per hour that field type that has the three fields with the type, the dollar, the currency type, then the amount and then the per annum type of setup.
 Vivian Larsen: that is not something that CFL will work with. And so that's a perennial gotcha for everybody that I know that's tried to set it up.
 Vivian Larsen: So use cases just all over the place. But a main one that I've used, I've seen is relocation. So for instance, if relocation is selected on something on the offer details tab, then the different kinds of relocation packages will come up.
 Vivian Larsen: And one of the most frequent questions I always used to get when I would set this up is, can I have conditional field logic show when I've selected something on the job?
 Vivian Larsen: So for instance, if relocation is eligible on the job, details, can I automatically have this conditional field logic show up on the offer details tab?
 Vivian Larsen: Another gotcha is it only works on the tab that you are active on. So when you're on that offer details tab, whatever driving action drives the rest of the conditional field logic has to take place on the offered details tab.
 Vivian Larsen: It can't take place in another place in the system.
 Alex M: So
 Jessica Smith: off the top of my head, and those are some pretty regular ones. Does anybody else on the call use conditional field project pros, cons, things that you found anyone else can share?
 Jessica Smith: Yes, come on. Oh, go ahead, please. Yeah, I can share something. So this is something that I learned from one of Vivians earlier now, you knows.
 Jessica Smith: And that's if you have your location profile set up correctly and like employee profiles and manager profiles, you don't have to use conditional field logic to pre-populate some things.
 Jessica Smith: So I am very excited to be moving to that methodology because re-uploading the conditional field logic can be a real pain and also this could be maybe I'm just missing something and doing and there maybe there's an easier way to do it and I need to come to a consulting hour.
 Jessica Smith: But if there's one mistake, it doesn't highlight where that mistake is and you have to re-upload the whole thing and then you have to remap every field every time you up-play upload a spreadsheet.
 Jessica Smith: You can't just go in and adjust like one line if you need to change
 Vivian Larsen: one thing. So it requires a lot of maintenance and it can be a frustrating experience which is why I would recommend leveraging other things unless you really need to go the CFL route.
 Vivian Larsen: That's just one thing that I've learned. So you're referring to the profile link field. Now you know that I did probably about March, April timeframe.
 Vivian Larsen: Yeah, personally, maybe it's just I'm old school in analog but I find that much easier to maintain because one other gotcha with conditional field logic is it can't be maintained by an integration.
 Vivian Larsen: So if you are doing some really crazy conditional field logic on your offer details time and your salary gets renegotiated in every fiscal year change.
 Vivian Larsen: You're going to be redoing all of that conditional field logic every single year. And like you said, when there's an error and you upload, you just got to find it.
 Vivian Larsen: It's not something that's going to call out or pop out when you import it. So
 Jessica Smith: I'm always very cautious about this particular use case that it's something that's fixed and isn't going to change a lot.
 Jessica Smith: If it's something that you're applying conditional field logic to that changes frequently, can't be maintained by an integration and is very hard to update.
 Jessica Smith: Exactly. And in our use case, like we use it on the job details tab to pre-populate certain HR stakeholders who are tied to a location, like to a business unit, certain leaders and if one person leaves or if they just re-change responsibilities and who's over what, then we have to go through and update
 Jessica Smith: the conditional field logic where I noted that the smarter option is instead to
 Alex M: have all of those people listed on the location profile and then you only have to update the location
 Angela Biehl: profiles not the conditional
 Alex M: field
 Angela Biehl: logic every single time that
 Vivian Larsen: changes. So that's what we're
 Alex M: going to be moving to
 Vivian Larsen: and was a lesson learned. I think Angela had a question. Angela Biel says does anyone have a work around for CFL when hoping to use integration field as a unit.
 Vivian Larsen: Vivian answered it. Got it. Got it. So I will say this, there's always a loophole. And it just depends on how much you want to tap dance in order to make something function.
 Vivian Larsen: So there is a way within conditional field logic to do profile conditional field logic. And so what that means is you've got a location profile.
 Vivian Larsen: let's just say for a company location. So you got address 1, 2, 3, 4. That record has a node ID in the system if you uploaded it as a profile within your system.
 Vivian Larsen: It's not a drop-down. It's a profile where you have like all of the different fields, city, state, country, etc. So that individual record has a node ID and you can build conditional field logic against the node ID.
 Vivian Larsen: So if you are building a profile for it first, you can have that profile drive other values. And so that is the only way that it can be maintained via an integration.
 Vivian Larsen: Because you're not maintaining the CFL, you're maintaining the profile via the integration. That is the only loophole I'm aware of, where you can have an integration manage something to do with your CFL.
 Vivian Larsen: But the driving information, you know, the relationship
 Angela Biehl: between that node ID address 1, 2, 3, 4 and whatever subsequent data you're trying to drive with it, that is all within CFL and can't be maintained by integration, but you can change some of the information on the profile by integration,
 Vivian Larsen: if you need to. So that can be a double-edged sword because that can make your CFL break too.
 Alex M: Yeah, it looked a little messy for us and some of the data that's coming over that we wanted as an input isn't aligned in items the way it is from our HRIS.
 Alex M: So it's not quite as simple as you said, dancing. Yeah. Sure. Oh, you had something here. So the fields we really want to use are all the ones that we can't use.
 Alex M: We use
 Cheryl Callaway: it the most confirmed choices that need to get sent to our HRIS and for reducing errors in general. Love that.
 Cheryl Callaway: This and entrance criteria help stop errors from being important to HRIS. We also tend to use it for items that recruiters would have to do manually and to choose the wrong values.
 Cheryl Callaway: Very interesting. Yeah, we always want to connect ours to like profile links, which we know doesn't work. So that's always our first issue, and then we have to do work around, which we'll never find with that.
 Cheryl Callaway: But I notice that like a lot of our CFL is to either limit choices, so that, you know, it's based off of other items, and that way recruiters don't have to think.
 Cheryl Callaway: But I mean, I hate to say they don't need to think as hard about like, you know, what's going on.
 Cheryl Callaway: So for example, on our job details tab, so we may have a lot of different flags for different things such as that certain like doing MVRs on background checks, or you know, maybe we need to send certain eye forms and things like that.
 Cheryl Callaway: And so the CFL just kind of helps them because they have to go in there to update other items and then the CFL will kind of narrow down decisions for them so they don't have to see a list of you know a thousand items.
 Cheryl Callaway: They can just see a list of you know five items or something. The other thing that we tend to do is like for an example on offer details if there's a referral so it's like is there a referral yes or no and then we can require fields to be you know populated, except for the currency fields, of course,
 Cheryl Callaway: but at least we can have them populate like who who was a referer and things like that.
 Alex M: And that way it's also just making sure that they hit certain fields. So if we notice like, for example, recruiters are not filling in this ex-field and they need to for whatever reason, regardless if it's being used
 Cheryl Callaway: with an integration, it's just a way to catch that, right? So
 Alex M: they were checking, I guess you could say. Love it. Yeah. And not making people think is, is perfectly fine. People in, uh, there was too many things to think about.
 Alex M: Yeah. Anytime you can, anytime you can reduce a number of things, it's something to think about, just to do the day job.
 Alex M: That is a big one. Exactly. All right. Any of the thoughts on conditional field logic today? Okay, Caitlin, thank you so much for the topic and Vivian for adding your insights and everybody on the call for diving in.
 Alex M: Now we're going to go over to our questions, but first I have a little thing that Ariel suggested. It's Ariel on the call today.
 Alex M: No, she's not. But she asked me if we could have a place to put an enhancement request so that we can see what we're requesting and kind of hop on these.
 Alex M: So there's a post pins to the right side of the bar, Isom's enhancement request hub and some instructions. You can see that Christopher put one in here.
 Alex M: Here's Ariel's and the request is that you include the request
 Vivian Larsen: ID so that you other people can even like these and say that so whatever ones get the most likes, we're going to kick them over to the partnership team and suggest that they prioritize those.
 Vivian Larsen: But you also talk to your account manager and say, Hey, I know that this one, this request here is active in your system.
 Vivian Larsen: we would also like to see that. Right, especially if you're a bigger customer and you have more leverage, be great to hop on and do some community advocacy for these.
 Vivian Larsen: I highly recommend if you can open your own cases and cite these numbers. So one of the biggest values that this is going to provide you is the ability to kind of see into behind the scenes stuff where I sometimes this has already been requested.
 Vivian Larsen: I used to be on the monthly ideas review board where we would sit down and go through all of these ideas and discuss whether they were feasible and whether there was the developer bandwidth to do any of them.
 Vivian Larsen: And we did very heavily, there was this great big Venn diagram that we would very heavily look at and
 Alex M: see how many people had asked for the same
 Vivian Larsen: thing. And when they cited the same case at the same time, they came up much higher in the list. So the more you can all kind of jump on and say that you're asking for the same thing and combine all of your numbers, your SPLA and numbers, the
 Alex M: plan
 Vivian Larsen: numbers, the better
 Alex M: for it to bubble up to the people that are actually reviewing it for whether it can be built or not.
 Alex M: What's plan mean? Why's that plan? Why's it ignite? I don't know. I think they're probably different
 Patrick C IW: areas of the
 Alex M: system. So
 Patrick C IW: like one's ATS, one is another area of the system because I've also seen CRM as one of the abbreviations too.
 Patrick C IW: So, right. All right, let's jump over to our general questions here.
 Alex M: See, this is Patrick, right? Patrick, I think you're on the call. Hey, Alex from me.
 Cheryl Callaway: I
 Alex M: think I got my answer inside of that right there from
 Cheryl Callaway: Daniela. And that's What we're doing is we are trying to get that associated with the text updates. So thank you for answering that
 Alex M: question. Daniel, because
 Cheryl Callaway: that was very helpful. All right. Great. Good to go. Uh, sure, all you had one. I jumped over. Oh, this is Chris.
 Cheryl Callaway: It's Chris to run the call. Sorry. Okay. So sure, go ahead. Oh, I was just wondering if anybody has an integration with Nakhri.
 Cheryl Callaway: It's an Indian job board in India.
 Alex M: Thought we were looking into it and we're not really liking it. It almost looks like
 Cheryl Callaway: indeed's original connector to
 Alex M: indeed easy apply back like how many years ago. So we're just like, oh, I don't know and I also wasn't sure if it wasn't like the applying network.
 Alex M: I doubt it is, but I thought I would just ask if anybody has any experience with it. Anybody have experience with that India job board?
 Alex M: Are you connected with Angad Madhra? I think I am actually. Yeah, find someone LinkedIn. So Angad used to work at ID and he is now
 Vivian Larsen: based in
 Alex M: India, he was a director of
 Vivian Larsen: HRS at Art and Health Services once upon a time,
 Alex M: and he might have insight into this since he's based at the time. Thank you. I mean, it does look like I'm connected to him.
 Alex M: Thank you. Yep. No problem. Okay. And this is Christopher Cohello on the call. Maybe this is just a FYI. Yeah, it's a summary of the Isom's care article.
 Alex M: Oh, okay, great. Cool. And I dropped this in chat. But I'll put it in a post here to.
 Shuree Sockel (Enterprise): What would you like us to do next? So we've been doing these. Now you know, for, I don't know, eight or nine months now and we've got 11 in our courses area.
 Shuree Sockel (Enterprise): What would you like to hear about next? Respond to this post here and we'll see them up for 2026. And with that, let's go to general questions.
 Shuree Sockel (Enterprise): Who else has a question today? Hi, it's Cherie from Enterprise. I wanted to bring up the indeed topic again about the multi-source feed that they wish to receive all
 Alex M: of
 Shuree Sockel (Enterprise): the jobs from. We currently send indeed our own job feeds and they contain an apply URL that goes to our career site and it's a custom apply URL and I think with the ICON's multi-source feed the apply URL is going to be maybe to the portal or a general place.
 Shuree Sockel (Enterprise): Indeed told us to reach out to other customers because they have large customers that use the Isom's multi-source feed and the jobs are going directly to their career site.
 Shuree Sockel (Enterprise): So I'm just trying to sort that out. Our recruitment marketing team really manages all of that. So I don't
 Alex M: have a ton of
 Terry Smith: knowledge but
 Shuree Sockel (Enterprise): I
 Terry Smith: do have the feed that we're
 Shuree Sockel (Enterprise): sending, indeed, the custom feed and I'm looking at the URL and it's our career site and then it's going directly to the job number, the requisition number that we're using.
 Shuree Sockel (Enterprise): So does that make sense to
 Alex M: anyone?
 Terry Smith: Harry, they actually asked if I knew anyone at the cheesecake factory because I like to touch a thorn in their side.
 Terry Smith: But that's like the worst thing to do is tell me to go find another customer and figure out how they did it.
 Terry Smith: Like isn't that your job to figure that out? And I just laughed because when they said do you know anyone at the cheesecake factory?
 Terry Smith: I'm like, yeah, I can probably ask Terry. So I just cut back this morning from our spending a week out at corporate and we had our advertising partner out there.
 Terry Smith: And today, you know, we feed all of our jobs to indeed via our advertising partner. So we feed them to our advertising partner, our advertising partner, and sends them all to Indeed.
 Terry Smith: We do that so that they can manage updates. They can apply the easy apply token at the job level versus the portal level today.
 Terry Smith: We don't want 20, 2800 cheesecake jobs all on easy apply. And so, you know, one other thing. So that's coming to an end on March 31st.
 Terry Smith: They're no longer allowing third party. Indeed, there's no longer allowing third party vendor. to send their jobs from an ATS.
 Terry Smith: So it creates a number of problems for us and that they're going to require. And in order to get their premium, what do they call it?
 Terry Smith: Indeed, connect. You're going to have to use the apply framework, which of course you have to pass them back to staging, which we're not terribly happy about either.
 Terry Smith: But the one of the things that we are working with them on with the applied framework and this may or may not it isn't just one of my complaints about indeed.
 Terry Smith: Is that, you know, they want us to use the applied framework, but all of our corporate jobs, you know, and it's not that many, it's probably 150 to 200 jobs a year.
 Terry Smith: To go through that apply framework, all had different screening questions. So someone's going to have to create applied frameworks for each of the jobs that are created throughout the year in order to stay, and indeed it's good graces, and indeed connect, because otherwise, if you're not on the connect
 Terry Smith: , you're going
 Alex M: to be throttleed down to
 Terry Smith: two organic
 Shuree Sockel (Enterprise): applications for a job per day. So, yeah, we're battling through that right now. We are working with a, I just started talking to a third party company to use an API to help both are indeed organic traffic, but we're still in the beginning talking stages.
 Shuree Sockel (Enterprise): I don't know if that answers your question, but indeed right now it's the way in the mind. You're not alone Terry.
 Shuree Sockel (Enterprise): Definitely not alone and forcing everyone to their apply framework. I know there are a lot of large companies that their legal and compliance teams have said absolutely not, no sharing or syncing of data.
 Shuree Sockel (Enterprise): So that's going to be a problem. It does answer my question that no cheesecake factory has not sorted everything out like what they said
 Terry Smith: that had been done. And we're also talking to them about an extension of that March 31st date, and it's not like an indefinite extension, I think we're talking around like summertime, fall time to continue kicking the problem down the line a little bit, so I don't know if they've offered any sort of
 Terry Smith: extension but we're talking to them next week in order to understand what is the given take with getting an extension with that.
 Terry Smith: You have a hard deadline is June 30th you know they've given us till March 31st to fall into the items multi-tenant to them but even at that you know and we said well what's the consequence of us waiting till June 30th and they said well you're you know, your jobs are going to get
 Shuree Sockel (Enterprise): brought down to two organic applications per day. And I said, so if we switch to the multi-tenant feed by March 31st, but we don't have the applied framework in place for all of it and it's and keep them on it's every concept under the cheesecake umbrella.
 Shuree Sockel (Enterprise): So it's not just it's not just the cheesecake factory, it's North Italia, it's Grand Lux, it's all of our box concepts and they all to be
 Terry Smith: on it or we get throttled down to two
 Alex M: applications per day so it's you know six one way half a dozen the other so we're we're still shooting for a March 31st solution.
 Alex M: That I expect that we're going that's what we're going to hear on Tuesday of next week is about that organic limit they haven't shared that with us yet but that sounds like that's what's coming.
 Alex M: me. Okay. Good stuff. Thank you, Terry. I think this is going to be an ongoing topic for a lot of companies for a long time.
 Alex M: You know, I wanted to ask something that Jessica mentioned on her post about Isom's data in Power BI. Jessica, I dropped a couple of links for you there.
 Alex M: At the end of your post, you said, as anyone been using AI and scheduled reports to interpret any data from ISIMS.
 Jessica Smith: And I had demoed a tool called TextQL a few weeks ago, but you said you are limited to only being allowed to use Microsoft Copilot at your company, currently in regards to approved AI tools.
 Jessica Smith: And I bet there are a lot of people out there who have a similar situation where they want to use AI, and Microsoft Copilot is the only thing that they're approved to use.
 Jessica Smith: Is anybody doing anything like that. Anybody using co-pilot specifically or another AI tool to interpret data from items right now in a way that is corporate-approved and not on the side?
 Alex M: Patrick is being forced to use co-pilot after January 1st, okay? I mean I'm kind of envisioning just to add some context like if I could have scheduled reports going to
 Vivian Larsen: and I can't think of what it's called but you can set up like emails to go to your co-pilot and then it can look at the data so if I did something with scheduled reports like would it be able to look at and like compile things that I'm looking at that I'm looking at you know BI but I just feel like there's
 Vivian Larsen: got to be some opportunity there for it to look at it and you need to be able to see like what's the highlight or what's this number versus having to do it myself.
 Vivian Larsen: Yeah. You're right at the transition between Power BI and what AI can kind of, and soon we'll be able to fully do probably in the next year or two, right?
 Vivian Larsen: And I've talked to some developers about what happens to Power BI, right? It's an interesting conversation, a living you're going to say something.
 Vivian Larsen: Yeah. One of the things I will just kind of caution our retail out there for you. One of our customers works for in a company that does a lot of data analysis.
 Vivian Larsen: us in her night. We're having a conversation about some of the AI adoption stuff and Gemini was the one that they were looking at potentially adopting and because their entire bread and butter is an analysis, their organization completely knocked it down because it couldn't prove, you couldn't prove
 Vivian Larsen: its methodology. So just like if you go back and you watch the demo that Alex did on text, textQL and look through how he was able to actually show his work and make sure that the results that it was giving him were accurate based on the sample that he provided.
 Vivian Larsen: That's the problem that a lot of organizations have currently with AI as it is currently. There's no way
 Alex M: for you to ask it to show its work and tell you how it got to the results that it's gotten to.
 Alex M: And so there's no way to prove that you can get the same results yourself if you go to all the trouble to do the same kind of work to do the data analysis.
 Alex M: And so that's a lot of the adoption frustration we're seeing out there in some of the different articles
 Vivian Larsen: and conversations and groups that we're having conversations with. It's like yeah sure it's like that new math stop where they ask it estimate and like you're trying to teach your kid how to do new math and it's completely different than
 Alex M: the way you did it, so you don't get it. That's how I currently feel about doing any kind of data analysis in AI, because you just got to trust it estimated, right?
 Alex M: And that's not enough or okay for a lot of organizations right now. So there needs to be, I'm sure there is some sort of auditing protocol to like what percentage of this result do I need to confirm manually to be X percent confident that it is X percent correct, right?
 Alex M: I
 Vivian Larsen: express that weirdly. like, but do you know what I mean? Like there must be a thing like that.
 Alex M: Maybe. My knowledge currently is anybody else know of anything like that, or you can get any of the big ones, GPT clogged, Gemini for Plexi, any of them to show their work.
 Alex M: Yeah, maybe not show their work. Like, so I was doing that when I was messing around with a textQL, and I was manually auditing the results, and
 Vivian Larsen: you know, I looked at like 10 random
 Terry Smith: results and they're all accurate. And so to me, okay, that's, but there needs to be a standard, right? It needs to be like, if I have manually audited 10% of this and it all checks out 100%, then I am confident within reason that the rest of it is going to be good enough to be usable.
 Terry Smith: Something like that. It also depends on the data set size that you're trying to analyze. Yeah. Yeah. Very interesting. Kathy had said, did I hear correctly that come March?
 Terry Smith: We won't be allowed to have our direct links for candidates to apply online to our career portals when posting to indeed.
 Terry Smith: I misunderstood. Huh.
 Alex M: That's
 Shuree Sockel (Enterprise): interesting. That's what Terry was doing. Yeah, she didn't. I think I replied she didn't misunderstand. and it's, you will, they are essentially forcing their clients to move to the applied framework where available
 Terry Smith: and most of the larger APS is now high at that. Now, sponsor traffic, you can have them apply that to your own career site, but organic traffic will be reduced to two organic applications per day.
 Terry Smith: Got it. So this is really forcing a lot more sponsored traffic and forcing customers to have to work with the third party to sponsor the campaigns that we want to sponsor.
 Terry Smith: We can't rely on the organic as most of us are doing a lot of that right now. We actually just did an interesting 60-day pilot to 10 locations, eight jobs per location.
 Terry Smith: So 80 jobs and fed them directly in the multi-tenant feed and then the rest of our 200-plus locations through our vendor's feed, and while we started a downward trend over the 60 days for
 Shuree Sockel (Enterprise): both, what was interesting is that the percentage drop from our control group, which is our vendor's feed through the Indeed feed, we lost 46% of our applicant flow in the second 30 days, whereas we only lost
 Terry Smith: 20% applicant flow through our vendor's feed in the second 30 days. So thus requiring us the sponsor more and we did not tell the locations that
 Alex M: we were putting them in the spirit
 Terry Smith: and so therefore they sponsored more jobs
 Alex M: in the second 30 days. So our ads been went up
 Terry Smith: significantly on those restaurants just to maintain the applicant flow needed for the thing and we did specifically during holiday hours.
 Terry Smith: Wow, that's a really, um, that's a great test and it just shows that what they're pushing for is exactly what they want.
 Terry Smith: They want us to have to sponsor everything. Yeah, if you want
 Shuree Sockel (Enterprise): to keep, if you want to keep your traffic up, we're either going to a go to the apply framework,
 Jessica Smith: which, you know, the conspiracy theory, I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but the conspiracy theory theory, if it's true, Terry. The conspiracy theorist in the right now says that they want us to pass back our stages so at the end of the year when or when our contract is up, when it comes back to renegotiations
 Jessica Smith: , they can look and they can say, Oh, well, you know, an applicant that, you know, came through in the age channel,
 Terry Smith: you hired 54% of them. So we account for, you know, they're going to make the assumption that they count for half of our hires.
 Terry Smith: So thus increasing our contract value of the following year. Again, I don't know if that's true. I'm just anything's
 Jessica Smith: possible with indeed. Of
 Terry Smith: course, that's true. Come on. Just curious, Terry, what do you mean increasing the contract value? Because we don't sign contracts with indeed.
 Terry Smith: We only pay what we choose to sponsor the jobs for. So they can't, I guess, unless that's just them trying to say, hey, you sponsor more jobs because this is happening.
 Terry Smith: Like there isn't a contract and the pricing isn't negotiable because you said the pricing yourself, so we said we do have a contractual agreement with Indeed because you know we have there.
 Terry Smith: I'm going to call it enhanced branding that is paid directly to Indeed. Okay, employer branding. Yes, thank you, the employer branding.
 Terry Smith: And then we have a negotiated rate for the cost per clerk or cost
 Alex M: per completed application. I can't remember, I don't. That's not. That's outside of my vision in the business. But yeah, our agreement includes not only the employer branding, but you know the cost per I want to just like complete the application.
 Alex M: So our sponsored dollar,
 Townsend Wilkinson: you know, you're going to sponsor a job for $200 and your cost for complete application is $10 you're going to get 20 applications from that.
 Townsend Wilkinson: You can negotiate that cost for complete the application down.
 Alex M: Okay,
 Townsend Wilkinson: that's not my expertise. I am always just in the room when it's discussed
 Alex M: and
 Vivian Larsen: the one that I'm only asked about it when I'm asked to figure out a solution that's come back indeed. Okay, always fun talking about indeed.
 Vivian Larsen: Well, that's just a question today. Hounds and how are things going on your end? Going well, things are starting to slow down.
 Vivian Larsen: I think I've tackled a lot of the big projects.
 Townsend Wilkinson: So
 Vivian Larsen: yeah, just kind of learning the company process right now. Yeah, great. Anything challenging going on? Aside from the UKG implementation?
 Vivian Larsen: Vivian, why would you make that face? Any HRIA implementation is always a master class in trying to figure out how to speak two or three languages at the same time.
 Vivian Larsen: Yeah, because you got the business, then you have UKG, then you have Isems. And they all kind of speak the same, it's funny, I have a
 Townsend Wilkinson: whole chapter about
 Alex M: this in the book that I'm writing but
 Vivian Larsen: HRIS people
 Alex M: are not HR people
 Vivian Larsen: in the
 Alex M: same way that recruiters are HR people
 Vivian Larsen: so you all kind of speak the
 Alex M: same language but it's like talking to someone from Australia or
 Vivian Larsen: Scotland where they're speaking English but they're not using words you recognize and don't know the context to make sense out of so sometimes it seems like you should know what they're talking about and
 Alex M: they don't advise versa. That's a great analogy. Yeah, yeah, so I speak three languages. So it's it's
 Vivian Larsen: one of the things that it's constantly getting for me It's like if I speak to somebody that speaks
 Alex M: Colombian Spanish versus somebody that speaks with Stindian Spanish, which is my Spanish Should understand them, but I don't there's very different context to the words that they use and it's the same thing when you're talking H.R.I.S.
 Alex M: to ATS implementation You should all be playing the same swimming pool, but they have very different priorities And so getting them to meet together in the same vein is half the battle when it comes to building an integration.
 Alex M: You are a master of metaphors. You want to do a quick plug for the book? We've been working on this for a number of months now.
 Michael Yates: It's a call to Q1, Q1. What's the final title? I think
 Alex M: the final working title at the
 Michael Yates: moment. I think we're still in the middle of working is from zero to ATS hero and accidental admins journey. I think that's where we're landing.
 Michael Yates: Yeah. Yeah, and it's all built around a metaphor, of course, which is the metaphor of building a house. I flipped it up a couple of houses, so it was the one that seemed the most accurate to me.
 Michael Yates: Yeah, cool.
 Alex M: Any other questions today? We've got about 15 minutes.
 Vivian Larsen: No question too big or small? Michael, you're offensive? Something on your
 Michael Yates: mind? No, nothing on my mind unless you want me to share. If you want to share everything that you share with me, you could.
 Michael Yates: So UCL is going to be a beta tester for per job resumes in ISMS. We have it in our, keep your fingers crossed.
 Michael Yates: We have it in our test site right now and we are going to start testing it in the new year.
 Michael Yates: So we will keep you posted
 Vivian Larsen: on on how it goes. Thank you very much. And this, I think it'll be a big win for a lot of people.
 Vivian Larsen: Vivian, you said that ISIS has been working on that for
 Michael Yates: how long?
 Alex M: 2016. Yeah. Long time. Yeah. It's just a fundamental change in the way the database in the background is organized because recruiting workflow profile and person profile are architecturally separate.
 Alex M: So building a bridge between the two of them is no easy task, but yeah. So I saw the initial, some of the initial pages on how it would work, where it's actually looking promising.
 Alex M: The key is making sure that for us, anyway, it's making sure that certain people can't see resumes that if they don't have the permissions, so
 Michael Yates: making sure that
 Alex M: they have multiple resumes in the system, you can't see the multiple resumes for that person, for everybody, right? So,
 Cheryl Callaway: yeah, those are like some of the things that we're going to be testing. We can have a conversation about it offline, but new license access controls would probably be the best way to do that.
 Cheryl Callaway: Yeah, we've got that enabled. Yeah, awesome. I'll share something that is coming soon. Frontline AI, helping frontline hiring teams save hours on recruiting.
 Cheryl Callaway: Well, reason the board of magicality. So I'm not sure what the status of this is, but it's on its way.
 Cheryl Callaway: This sort of looks like paradox to me. The way that you can do conversational AI with candidates here. Screening questions and an offer letter and onboarding on your phone.
 Cheryl Callaway: So stay tuned for that. Yeah, that's cool.
 Vivian Larsen: Yeah.
 Cheryl Callaway: Other questions? Who else has a question today? This is Cheryl. I have a quick question in regards to
 Vivian Larsen: access for access law, search,
 Cheryl Callaway: locks, carry, pretty locks,
 Vivian Larsen: whatever. So I wanted to send another platform and I was kind of curious as to how it works because I've never seen it before.
 Vivian Larsen: A person went into a requisition and they are a vendor recruiter, but they are not, they're like the internal recruiter, but you know they only handle like contract jobs.
 Vivian Larsen: And when they go to look up their persons, they candidate are actually a person's profile. You know in new items they can see all their workflows right.
 Vivian Larsen: So if it's a contract job, they can click into it, you know do whatever they need to do But if it's a non-contract job, they can only view it on that overview tab, but they can't click into it.
 Vivian Larsen: That's access. How does that work? Like, what do you even set up for that? Because I was thinking they can obviously see it so you're not not allowing them to see jobs.
 Vivian Larsen: Yeah, I see it now, you know, comment. Yeah, I'll do it now, you know, on new Isom's access controls. So one of my favorite things that they've released in the last six years, honestly, because there's three kinds of permissions, just to get into it a little bit in Isomps, and we touched on it a little
 Vivian Larsen: bit when we were talking about the confidential process, but your three types of permissions are security rules. These are binary, there is no gray, it is yes or no, and no flexibility whatsoever, those are shared blocks.
 Vivian Larsen: Then there's security rules, security rules are field-based only and tab-based so you can show or hide a field or tab based upon a condition that you can report on.
 Vivian Larsen: However, there's only five profiles. You've got five for person, five for recruiting workflow, and five for job. And very often person in recruiting workflow you need to duplicate because the conditions have to be applied in both places.
 Vivian Larsen: And then there's new items access controls which drumroll please allows dynamic filtering, which is why it's the favorite thing they've developed in the past couple of years because this number one thing we would but our heads against an implementation when we're building new customers is how do you
 Vivian Larsen: stop someone from seeing information where there are gray areas. So in other words, I'm a recruiter and I might need to cover this other recruiter for a short period of time But I don't need to see all of their data.
 Vivian Larsen: How do you manage that? And so as long as there's Going back to the profile link field conversation conditions on the job of the person profile I can use I can say if person if job is in Department a and person is in department a Show or hide them the values So in this case, that job that the person
 Vivian Larsen: was demoing probably had something where contract recruiter
 Cheryl Callaway: eligible was selected and on their profile, they probably had contract recruiter selected. It could have been done 100 other ways, but this is just one way
 Vivian Larsen: I could think it would be done. And then in New Isom's access controls, there was a dynamic filter applied. The caveat to New
 Cheryl Callaway: Isom's access controls is that you are going to want to
 Vivian Larsen: take away search In the quick search bar because quick search only on or search locks and doesn't honor new items access controls I think that was a future enhancement that they were
 Alex M: talking about but have not yet released yet. I haven't seen it out there yet So you're going to want to take search away completely from anybody who is using new items access controls if you want to be very strict and Just control what they see on their dashboards via reports and dashboards.
 Alex M: So it requires a little bit of careful and thoughtful dashboard planning for some of these folks to make sure you're not hindering them for me able to do what they need to do.
 Alex M: Yeah. So pros and cons to everything and that's the content to new access new items access controls but it's also probably one of the more powerful things they've put out there and quite a bit for the for permissions perspective.
 Alex M: Interesting. Okay. I was just surprised that like they could just not click on it. I was like that's interesting. They'll be able to click on it, but more often than not, it comes up with a bar.
 Alex M: At the top of it says you do not have access. You do not have permission to see this profile or something.
 Alex M: Right. Thank you. You're welcome. I did a tiny bit of research on that subject from earlier. So auditing AI analytics.
 Alex M: Apparently, there isn't a single standardized protocol for auditing AI analytics, but there are well-established auditing principles you can apply to AI generated analytics,
 Ty Miller: and
 Alex M: here's a practical framework. I put this in general
 Ty Miller: discussion. If you want to check it out, it'll be the first post that you see there.
 Vivian Larsen: Okay, we have a few more minutes. Who else has a question today?
 Alex M: No
 Kaitlyn Faile: one wants?
 Alex M: Go in twice. Okay, that's it. Thank you everybody for joining our call today. We'll see you here next week, same time, same place.
 Alex M: If you'd like to stay behind and share something that you learned, we'll do a quick recording. If not, have a restful and restorative weekend.
 Alex M: See you next time.