11 - Breath, Body and the Beauty of Not Striving with Dan Peppiatt

What Happens When You Let Go of the Shoulds? A Gentle Conversation with Dan Peppiatt

In this special episode, I’m joined by teacher, thinker and seeker, Dan Peppiatt. We talk about what happens when we stop striving and start listening - not to the noise of the world, but to the quiet, honest voice within.

We explore the winding path that led Dan away from traditional yoga teaching and into a more intuitive, playful relationship with the body and spirit. Along the way, we touch on the meaning of presence, why stillness can feel unsafe, and how we might begin to trust ourselves again.

This is not a conversation full of answers. Instead, it’s an invitation to unlearn, to soften, and to return - gently - to what truly matters.

Let this be a moment to sit with your own truth. Brew a tea, take a breath, and come join us.

If you’d like to explore more of Dan and Gemma’s work, CLICK HERE - they offer a range of Yoga Like Water courses and trainings. These include:

• Meditation Teacher Training (online and in Cornwall)
  
  
• Pregnancy Yoga Teacher Training (online and in Cornwall)
  
  
• Breathwork Immersions (online and in Cornwall)
  
  
• Meditation Retreats (Cornwall and online)
  
  
• Specialist trainings in mindfulness, yoga nidras, and embodied practices 

Visit their site to learn more and see which offering might support your path.
yogalikewater.com

I would be so grateful if you could buy me a coffee using THIS LINK. This helps me fund the podcast and keep it going 🙏

Transcript

Okay. So my guest today is Dan Pepiat. I hope I pronounced that properly.

Well done. And I first came through, well, I came across you actually, Dan, through Movement for Modern Life, which for those that don't know, is an online platform that is now dubbed the Netflix of yoga. And I was really struck, Dan, by the way you taught breathing and some somatic practises.

They felt so different, actually, from anything I'd experienced before and they weren't static or rigid, but they were really alive. They were intuitive and rooted in feeling and actually very natural movement. One of the things I really remember was putting your hands in paint and then moving the paint through the body. 

I absolutely loved that. So just to explain to the listeners, your work is really wide ranging and together with Gemma, Dan's wife, he offers yoga like water, teacher trainings, meditation courses, breath and pregnancy yoga, as well as retreats with a friend in their home. But really what stands out is that everything is approached with the same spirit of curiosity, authenticity and freedom rather than from fixed forms.

But I've also got to know Dan more through his Before Breakfast Club, which is half an hour of meditation, three mornings a week. And you know what? Over time, this has really blossomed into something special. And it's become a really large community of people from across the UK who support each other and come together on Monday, Wednesday and Friday mornings to meditate. 

But also there's been this wonderful connection through the WhatsApp group. And there have been questions and feedback and encouragement that have come through that. So for me, it's been enormously helpful.

I mean, meditation has been something I've really struggled with. But your Before Breakfast Club, Dan, is organic, open, honest and very nurturing. So it sets my day up beautifully, may I say, but it also does clearly for others. 

Yes, for a lot. It's good for me. It's a real, real pleasure to talk to you today about your journey, your philosophy.

And you really have a beautiful way of weaving yoga, meditation and life together. So my first question is, you chose the name Yoga Like Water, and we all know it's powerful, it's yielding, unstoppable. But you know, how has that shaped the way you live? I think it probably came about more as a result of the way that we live, I guess, because we've always lived very much like that, in a very flexible and governable sort of way, to be honest. 

Probably just lucky that I hooked up with the right person when I was very young, Gemma. And we're both very, I'm not sure the word is, unmanageable. Well, we both go along with each other's, you know, whims. 

And we never, we never have a plan and never have had a plan in 30 years of being together. Yeah, and life has turned out fine. So I suppose we've just sort of developed this inherent trust that if you sort of go with the flow a little bit, and you don't oppose it too much, and you have an idea roughly where you might like it to go, but you don't struggle too hard, it actually all tends to work out all right.

That might not be like, you know, perfection, whatever perfection is, but it generally is quite pleasant life without too much struggle, really. It sounds fantastic, because we actually don't live in a world of trust. We don't. 

We actually almost have a media that, a fear-minded mongering in a way. And I think trust has become quite something that, or a lack of it, underpins all sorts of people's lives and creates a lot of anxiety, you know, and fears. But one of the things you wrote that I read was, it doesn't matter why we're here, and there's a joy in the mystery.

So how do you balance that sort of curiosity with an acceptance of not knowing? Um, what do you mean by curiosity? Well, if you have an enquiring mind. Oh yeah, I see, yes, yeah. I suppose I'm not looking for answers, maybe. 

I sort of have a very enquiring mind into, I guess my enquiry is more related to why we are so obsessed with seeking, you know, certainty and control and all those things. I'm fascinated by that. I'm not, I've never been fascinated by trying to find any answer or, and I've never believed that any methodology or teacher or anybody has, you know, a definitive answer for everybody.

So I'm definitely a bit of a mongrel in that respect. I've always been happy to, to, to, you know, take what I feel is useful for me from different sources, uh, without clinging to it. Um, but also equally able to let go of a lot of what I just think has been, you know, maybe is a bit, is a bit of gumpf, you know, like yoga would be a good example. 

That's probably where I started, you know, as a kid, uh, in my teens. Um, and there's so much that yoga has taught me, but you know, yoga certainly in the way it was changed and probably, you know, always was carry some weird ideas. There's a lot of gumpth in yoga as well, but it doesn't make any sense whatsoever. 

It's just, uh, you know, monkey see monkey do stuff. So yeah, a lot of my exploration through all sorts of things has been, I suppose, what seems like it's. Uh, unquestionably authentic and useful and what seems like it's just a bit of baggage. 

Um, but also remembering that, that that is all just through my lens of seeing it. So it's already imperfect. I'm not really in any place to make a judgement on any day. 

That's the conclusion I come to what the more and more I told the more and more I wish I didn't say anything. Okay. Well, when I, when I started to follow you on movement for modern life, one of the aspects of your teaching was your, um, breathing practises.

Um, and your breathing practises were very powerful for me that they helped me very much indeed. And, um, they've really come from, from what, from your life in, in, and how have they evolved? Uh, uh, the breathing practises. Well, I mean, I've been asthmatic since I was about as long as I can remember or I suppose, and that was very, um, not well managed maybe as a kid, I suppose the drugs weren't so good, et cetera, et cetera. 

So, um, I often couldn't talk, you know, I didn't have enough air to talk or certainly not to walk around, uh, at times when I was young. So I've always sort of been very aware of the breath because I often didn't have enough of it. Um, but equally I've also probably been happy not having enough breath. 

If that, that sounds a bit weird, but I think as an asthmatic certainly when, you know, it's not well controlled, you do come to that relationship. Like, you know, I don't, I can't breathe as much as I feel like I want to, but actually I'm still alive. Maybe I don't need to breathe as much as I feel like I want to. 

Um, growing up, uh, very much into surfing and, um, I never had a fear of sort of being held underneath by big waves and things like that. Uh, I guess because I'd spent so much time short of breath bizarrely. Uh, so I've always been quite happy with that. 

No panic as such sets in. Um, but yeah, then I, I think what really drove me, I never really resonated particularly with the, the, the pranayama and yoga, especially not with a lot of the stuff that was taught. I quite liked the sort of alternate nostril breathing that always felt very relaxing and balancing, but certainly a lot of the more powerful breath work, uh, like Kabbalah Bharti and so on. 

Yeah. It was sort of interesting in that it, it creates a sort of shift in mental state because you, well, you're actually starving your brain of oxygen, although it feels like you're filling it with oxygen because your head goes all tingly. But, um, but it didn't really fundamentally do anything for me. 

Um, it actually seemed to make me more short of breath, um, and more anxious because I was, anxiety was a massive part of my childhood and adulthood actually. Um, so, um, eventually I came to something called, uh, Bottega. Yeah. 

Yeah. Brilliant. Yeah. 

Which is just for me was brilliant. You know, it's very sort of science-based, uh, I won't go too into it now, but, uh, it completely helped my asthma, my constant sinusitis that I had for years just, um, because of the drugs I was taking for my asthma and my sinuses. Um, yeah. 

I mean, I haven't had a sinus, you know, um, spray for God knows now. I don't know. I can't actually, probably 15 years, maybe not that, but, but up to that point I was on them constantly.

So, um, yeah. And anyway, Bottega is all about breathing less is sort of, you know, it's about minimising our breath and realising we just don't need to necessarily breathe as much as we think we feel that we need to. Um, turns out that it worked for me and, uh, yeah, a lot of people seem to really resonate with not just to take over, but, uh, the only breath techniques I really share are, are calming the breath, minimising the breath, reducing the breath, no gimmicky sort of powerful, uh, breath works that create changes of state.

Well, you know, heightened changes of state, I suppose. In terms of managing all of, I mean, asthma is a frightening condition for a child, nevermind an adult. Do you think that that has helped you to find tools that have enabled you to trust the path you're on? Uh, I don't know. 

Maybe I do. Yeah. Do you know, I mean, asthma was such a integral part of my life from as long as I can remember, it's really hard to unpick the relevance that it has. 

I mean, my asthma is well controlled now and, um, it's not normally much of a problem, but, um, yeah, I'm sure that I, yeah, thinking back, I don't know. It must've been quite scary to be honest. I remember my dad carrying me around the house at Christmases and things like that because I couldn't walk, you know, for lack of breath.

But yeah, I don't have a memory of it being scary, but I assume it must have been, it would have certainly been weird not to have been a bit scary. Um, but it's fascinating when you look at sort of what the, you know, the older texts in yoga, which you could say were sort of more, you know, um, I don't know, more aligned really with the original ethos of it, but all of their, all of their sort of discussions around breath were all about minimising it and reducing it and being happy with less breath. You know, all this talk about just taking one breath a minute and that being more than that, more than adequate. 

Um, they were definitely onto something. And I mean, my, my assumption on this, I've never really seen this laid out in a translated sort of way, but my assumption is that the breath is our greatest attachment, you know, I mean, whatever else we think we're attached to. If, if we don't have one more breath, we'll soon drop the bar of chocolate and the rain and the house and then everything else very quickly. 

But that was this, uh, I assume that they worked out that that was a pretty serious attachment and then they were working using the breath as some way of understanding attachment and breaking that hold that it had over us. Um, that's my take, but I, I may be wrong, you know, Hmm. Okay. 

I read somewhere that you encourage people to make their own coat rather than wear someone else's that, that struck a chord with me because when I did my teacher training, I wanted to be exactly like my yoga teacher, which I think happens a lot. Yeah, we highly recommend that. Really quickly.

I think it's quite a tricky thing. How, how do you guide people without imposing your own patterns on others? Um, very lightly, basically, uh, with the lightest touch possible. It's that everything I feel is a discussion on our, I don't even like calling them the trainings because I don't feel that represents what they are. 

They are just long discussions really where people find what sits well with them, you know, and I feel that we're here to get the discussion moving. Um, and to throw up points of view that they can hopefully disagree with, you know, so I'd be really upset if everyone agreed with it. Uh, so yeah, there's, there's an awful lot of throwing people in, in, you know, and seeing if they swim, they always do swim. 

No one's ever sunk yet in 10 years of the yoga trainings. Uh, but that all comes down to trust as well. And at the beginning of our trainings, I always say, look, I completely trust that each and every one of you are going to be amazing. 

And I'm sure that most of you don't trust yourselves at the moment, so you don't have to just let me worry about that bit. And, and, you know, and you, as soon as you say, I trust you, I've got no worries, you're going to be fine. We're here to support you, but we're not steering it. 

Um, people start to then trust themselves. It takes a year, you know, we don't do a short training. It's a year long one for yoga. 

Um, people turn out just as the most incredible sharers of yoga without us having really done much whatsoever. I think you've given them the platform. You've given them the space and you've given them, um, no rigid structure. 

I mean, how, how would you say your approach is different from traditional yoga teacher training courses? Um, there's a lot, I think, um, I think we had to overcome an awful lot of fear of our own about stepping back and, and trusting it would work out. That was the main thing. Uh, you know, all those fears about people have paid X amount, they've invested money and time.

What are they going to think now that I turn around and say, we don't have any schedule. I'm not telling you what we're doing next Saturday. Cause I haven't got the faintest idea yet.

They all got to suddenly say we want our money back as a funny enough, nobody ever does. Um, it's so I think, yeah, the biggest step was that and finding the right tutors. Uh, we have less tutors now. 

We mainly just because we have smaller groups, so we can't afford to pay so many, but we used to have an insane amount of teachers. I think one year we had a dozen different tutors and the whole point of, and they were from just a massive, diverse range of different yoga schools and traditions. Um, you know, often really in opposition to each other fundamentally, but we chose the teachers cause they were very open-minded even though they came from different schools. 

Yeah. And it was a way of sort of, you know, representing everyone's just got their own take on yoga. None of these people are right.

Hopefully the tutor next week will completely contradict the one you've got this week. And it was, and that was what happened. And there was really, you know, often quite heated discussions went on and, um, I would just normally sit there listening to it, not doing anything.

Occasionally just remind everybody that, you know, we're all partly right. And, you know, ultimately wrong. And also with the pandemic, um, then you'd have to change your, you change some teachings to online, to verb teachings. 

Um, how did you find that trying to keep it authentic and experiential when it's online? Well, yeah, I mean the pandemic, uh, so we'd promised everybody an in-person one, and I think we only ended up doing one online weekend actually during COVID. Um, I mean, as is the name, we were totally flexible and everyone else was as well. So we ended up all doing it in this ridiculously, it was basically a freezing cold barn on a farm. 

Uh, but it was so huge. We could all be socially distanced, but, everybody wanted to do it right through winter. So there was no heating.

Everyone was sitting, people were sitting there and they were coming from all over the country because it was an educational thing. So they were allowed to, um, but they were sitting there in sleeping bags and bobble hats. I'm not exaggerating. 

It was so cold, but nobody wanted to stop. So we just felt that we were just carrying on and we did. But now we do online, we do a hybrid. 

So that's mainly because we're so far down into Cornwall. It's a long way to ask people to come. Um, and people tend to come from all over for our time together.

So we do, um, six weekends online and then the rest in person. And it works really well, actually. It's a nice space that people feel very comfortable in their own home.

Certainly through winter, we can talk about all this sort of philosophical stuff and meditation and breath work, which you don't really need to be together to do. Um, they get to teach each other masses online, which sort of like is a essential thing now, really, um, as it turns out, isn't it? And then, yeah, when they, when they actually turn up in person, they're already super confident teachers. Uh, and it's so much easier to do it in person than online.

So yeah, it worked out well. I think it did open the doors a lot. I mean, I, I discovered Qigong a few years ago as well. 

And I came late to yoga. I came into my sixties to yoga and I came to it out of my husband having cancer and trying to find a toolkit of some sort to, to manage where I was at. So, I mean, I took up yoga at 61. 

Um, but then the journey continues, doesn't it? Once you start, you, you, you, you evolve. Um, and, um, I saw some movement online with Mimiko Uedema. Now I live in the North of England, so there's no way I was regularly going to go to try yoga in London or where, wherever she was. 

And the pandemic opened that door beautifully for me. And I think in many ways, lots of people who wanted to know more about meditation, mindfulness, yoga, uh, Qigong, whatever it might be, that actually, um, was, uh, it, it, it was a, a bit of a, a, a silver lining in general in, in life because we were, we were exposed to, to these people. And actually I think we needed all of these practises more than ever to, um, find that anchorage and, and that sense of foundation in, in some way or another. 

Um, so yeah, I think it's, I think it's been very, very powerful. I mean, you've had such a, an interesting life, haven't you? I mean, you were a teacher, you, I've seen some arts that you've done, so like mechanical arts. Yeah. 

I've built some very, yeah, I think the biggest mechanical at one point it was, yeah, probably the biggest British mechanical piece of art. Yeah. I just wake up and think that's a great idea. 

Let's try that and see what happens. You know, yeah, actually your story is full of quite radical shifts. I totally is. 

So I think sometimes people think I'm just making it all up and then I have got photographic evidence. Yeah, no, I love it. I love it. 

Just a shift of yeah, whatever. I mean, we tend to move every five years just because it's nice to be fresh and then in a different place where you don't know, I love moving. I mean, our kids bless them, they put up with it, but how do you think that's shaped your children then? How do you think that's affected them and shaped them? Um, I mean, I mean, they've never, they were home. 

I mean, they're now 18 and 21, but they never went to school. We never, you know, I think the first time they ever stepped foot in a school was the day they walked in to take a GCSE in the exam room. And they were like, this is a weird place. 

Our youngest one was born on a boat. Uh, yeah. So they've had a pretty unorthodox, I suppose we took taking them all over the world, travelling, et cetera. 

Yeah. They just do. I suppose they're uncompromising as well in that they just don't feel that they're answerable to anyone else's expectations of what or who they should be.

And they're both complete. I mean, they're both hold the same, you know, I'd say feels like a good set of morals, uh, from my perspective. But, um, they're both very different. 

One is a circus performer and one is an ecologist, you know. Um, it's of bits of you and Gemma really coming out in those ways. Yeah. 

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 

Very much so. I mean, yeah, we spent a lot of time environmentally protesting as in our youth. I did environmental science when I thought I'd saved the world single-handedly. 

And then, um, and then they spent an awful lot of time around circus and festivals because of, yeah, because of the sculpture that I was doing for a long time. So yeah, they both obviously just clicked with certain aspects and went, ran off on that one. How did you meet Gemma? Uh, at the pub as the best relationship.

She lived just down the road from my mom and dad. And, uh, yeah. And I always thought, ah, she's awesome, but she was a bit too cool for me. 

So I had to work on the trade. Well, you seem to have, you know, really, uh, lived a rich and adventurous path together in, in a lot of ways. And, um, in a very changing world, you've chosen an unorthodox way to lead your lives. 

And, um, I'm sure that will have given your children some resilience and strength, to be honest, because if their world is changing then, uh, and their parents are changing worlds and, uh, then it's, it creates a different platform for them, doesn't it? Yeah. I mean, I think that, you know, like everybody, they have anxiety about things, you know, they're like superhuman in any way, but I do think they don't, they don't believe in any sort of imposed limitations that aren't actually there. I hope not. 

Anyway, I think they generally believe if they want to do something, they can, you know, they have a good crack at it and hopefully they won't be too attached to it. Cause that's one of my favourite topics, non-attachment, but equally, I don't think they feel they couldn't do something cause, you know, society tells them they shouldn't do it that way, which I would hope. It's tricky, isn't it? The non-attachment, you don't realise what you're attached to sometimes.

It's so deep rooted. We're attached to everything pretty much, aren't we? We are. Yeah. 

Yeah. Cause we fear losing things. We will fear losing whether it's, you know, whether it's love or something, you know, something we own or whatever else.

Um, what inspired you to set up the Before Breakfast Club? Oh, I mean, that was just a, an idea that I thought would last for a month. I love bringing people together. Like I, I suppose there is a deep rooted, there is a hundred percent, there is a deep rooted anarchist inside of me. 

And I think, you know, I, um, I've always been very opposed to access to anything, you know, dependent on your means or your place in society. And I felt it was a very nice opportunity to create something that was just very levelled. People donate what they want or nothing. 

You know, the only restriction is, you know, they have to get out of bed if they want to do it live. But a lot of people watch it back. Um, yeah. 

And it just started off as an idea because a few people had mentioned it. Most of my ideas, not actually most, but an awful lot people suggest, um, that I should do. Actually quite a few. 

And then I'm just one of those people that just does it and to see what happens. Cause I don't really mind if it flops. I've never been attached to that. 

You know, if it, that's fine, but, uh, give it a, give it a whirl. And what'd you know, three, three years later. It's grown.

Still going, still going. Yeah. As it ebbs and flows, it's very natural with things.

But the community's grown. There's a powerful sense of community and that WhatsApp group is fabulous. Yes. 

It's such a good giggle. And, uh, I feel like it's, I feel like it's really unusual in the world of meditation to have such a lighthearted, non-dogmatic community that don't, you know, all subscribe to one's set of beliefs or way of doing it. There's definitely no sort of, you know, guru or leader. 

I mean, I feel like I just hold the logistics together, but, um, I definitely don't want to lead anybody or anything like that. So. I think it's a really, sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you, but I think it's a really supportive group. 

It's so organic. Yeah. Yeah, it is very much so. 

Yeah. You never know what they're going to start talking about. And the practises are organic, you know, I swear.

Sometimes I have structure. Sometimes I, I just, you know, deliver the sessions with some structure. Oftentimes I just get out of bed, see what I feel like and see what comes out of my mouth.

Sometimes it's seems useful. Sometimes it seems not. We never do any prep at all. 

Do you just get up and go with it? Nothing. Just get out of the computer and start talking. And that's extraordinary. 

Do you know what? I really do think that's extraordinary. Right. Yeah. 

No, see, I, I, yeah, I don't know. It doesn't seem it to me, but it's obviously because I find it normal. So, uh, yeah, I don't know. 

I'd sort of see what's on my mind, what's useful for me. Maybe I've heard something that week, you know, I might have a tiny idea sometimes, but, um, no, oftentimes I just get up and it just pops into my head. Um, yeah.

Okay. So I'm really interested now in how you walk that edge without ever getting burnt out. Uh, yeah, well, you know, um, I, I have to be careful about that too, because especially with that community, I've, I think I did just, I've just taken, well, I didn't even take a whole month off. 

I just reduced it and then two, but that's the first time in three years. And, um, I've got a lovely supportive group of other teachers who will just step in at the drop of a hat. Nobody, you know, nobody asks for anything, no thanks, no money. 

So they're absolutely amazing. And they've just come from that, you know, community, other teachers. So they will always, in fact, I'll often be reminded by one of them that I need to take a break or that they're a lovely group. 

We have our own little WhatsApp group, um, as well, which we occasionally chat on or have a geek, but yeah. So, um, not getting burnt out. Yeah. 

It's, it's sort of odd because I don't, I don't live a life that's nine to five in any way and never have. So there is very little structure in our life, but actually that isn't, that is, can sound idyllic to a lot of people who have a nine to five structure, but it's actually quite hard because there is also no structured time to not be doing anything. And, uh, you know, we live in a sort of small holding. 

There's always a million things to do. I don't know. Yeah. 

I mean, I suppose you would go to work and pay someone else to do it or, um, is the other way of doing it. Whereas I, my work is much different to that and I do everything myself. Um, so yeah, there are times when I just feel not burnt out. 

I never let it get to that stage, but yeah, you definitely need to be very careful and maintain space and time for yourself, your own practise. Um, but then I feel that my, I've always said that sharing is a practise in itself, you know. It is, but you know, do you and Gemma, cause you've got, you know, a lot going on, as you say in your lives, do you have time and space to, to find that, that for yourselves to, to just be.

Yeah. Not as much as people think. Yeah. 

Uh, I dunno. I mean, we just spent all yesterday at the beach. It wasn't my birthday, but we've, you know, if we want to and there's nothing, we can just go to the beach and sit on the beach for a day, um, around odd bits and bobs. 

But, um, yeah, sometimes I think, sometimes I do think life is simpler if you, if you have a structure, but I just can't, you know, structure just isn't for me, unfortunately. So I have to suck up the things that come without structure as well. Cause there are so many benefits. 

My dad thinks I'm hilarious. My dad's a builder and, or was, he's retired, but you know, he was, he was very logical, methodical, everything. What are you going to do? You know, and I would say I'm not a builder, but I'm not a bad builder having grown up, you know, with my dad as a builder. 

So I just built this massive oak conservatory upstanding in, um, but my dad. Sorry, did you build that? I did. It's huge.

Oh, I'm worried. It's amazing, Dan. Oh, wow.

Well, you know, I just think, well, somebody can do it. So I can do it probably. It takes me a while, but I get there. 

But my dad thinks the way that I go about it is just hilarious because I'll get out of bed and I'll just sort of go, well, what, what job do I feel like doing today? Not necessarily what is the logical job to do today. Um, so, um, yeah. Or I'll get halfway through this and then I'll just go off and do another job that I feel is, you know, more inspiring and then come back and finish the roof two months later. 

Whereas my dad would just be putting his hair out. He says, I've stuck. How anybody can work that way? Uh, but I suppose I'm not on the, not on the, any sort of, you know, I'm not on anybody else's time restrictions or anything.

No, right. Well, no, because I think that sometimes I'm, I look for structure. Um, and I think that's probably why I find your meditations and your practises so releasing because the, they're the opposite of what I am. 

And I find so much value in what you teach. Um, and I think there's a lot of structure in how we live now, you know, in education and nine to five or five 30 office work or, yeah, there's, there's so much structure around. I once watched a programme years ago about ants and how they move in armies and so ordered and structured and so on. 

And and then when, if you looked above us from the sky and you look down on all our roads and M one and the, and all the motorways and everything, we are actually terribly structured people. Yeah. Incredibly. 

And that possibly makes us quite inflexible in a way to change or altering or, or to being open in, in a lot of ways. And, um, yeah. What brings you joy? What brings you the most joy? Um, gardening, uh, hands in the soil. 

Yeah. Basically chains when I'm out, we live in the woods and if a tree comes down and I'm out chainsawing it up, I'm happy or what, you know, I'm not in the ultimate sense, but I feel like, yeah, this is why I'm doing it. This is why I always did it all just to be in the woods. 

And, um, and I, I would be one of those people, I think, you know, who would, I don't know. I have a very hermit like tendencies every now and then Gemma has to ask me how long since I've left the land as it could be two weeks and I haven't actually seen another year because we live at the end of a half mile track. So if I don't go out, I don't see anybody. 

Oh, I've definitely got those tendencies. Um, but equally, you know, I love, I grew up on the edge of London. I'd love going back to London. 

Paradox. I'm a paradox. I love going to the theatre, you know, I love going back to London and going to see some dance or anything. 

I think maybe I just embrace that paradox quite well. I'm happy to be a hermit or to go clubbing at Glastonbury and equally sort of able to adapt quite easily to both environments to be honest. Do you go to Glastonbury every year? I saw you'd gone this year.

Uh, yeah, pretty much. We have had a few years where we had breaks, but I used to go every year. With sculptures or big installations for a long time. 

And then more recently, yeah, this year I did some music. Uh, my daughter's or my youngest daughter's there every year. She's a circus performer and she performed in the big top. 

And so I basically just go so that I get to see her nowadays. I'm not sure I'd bother going. Um, if not, but what does she perform? Uh, she's an aerial performer. 

Wow. Yeah. Oops. 

Um, all that sort of stuff. Yeah. Very beautiful. 

Makes me cry. Oh, that's lovely. Yeah. 

That's lovely. Yeah. What do you think is the biggest misunderstanding people have about yoga and meditation? Uh, that they're going to fix your problems and make you happy.

And that they, you know, you may feel even more unhappy for some time. You know, I, I think they're all about honesty really. And being, you know, being with what is, I am certainly no expert or master of that, but I feel, I feel like I'm not looking for an escape route from it as such. 

That's all I could say. I know you've had some challenging issues with your eye, one eye in particular this year, haven't you? How's that working out now? Um, it's, it's been a funny old couple of years, really sort of a detached my retina and then I've, I've got, I'm very short sighted. So where will the problems come from? Um, so I've had a sort of different surgeries over the years. 

So theoretically I would be blind without them as such, but, um, yeah, I had a detached retina. Then I had this, um, wet macula. I don't know, basically your back of your eye starts tearing. 

Um, and then they found out that I'd lost a lot of sight in the other eye whilst all this had been going on through glaucoma that they hadn't picked up. Um, for a bit, I'm not blaming them. It was quite unfortunate what the reasons were. 

Yeah. So I've got one eye that's pretty short and the other one that's failing. So there's, uh, yeah, there's always seems to know you have those days where you feel like it's not fair and that that's very human. 

Um, I don't, I must say, you know, I mean, there's the initial shock of all these things, which I think is very human to, to get news like that and think, Oh God, I'm a bit young to be going blind. Um, and then, you know, it's just, you know, yeah. Then I was sort of very grateful for all the years of practise, to be honest, because they helped me navigate that and just go, well, you know, it's just stuff.

Why wouldn't it happen? You don't start making these weird deals where you sort of think, well, you know, worse stuff could have happened or, you know, better stuff could have happened. It's all just like nonsense, isn't it? It's just like, it just did happen and that's it. And you just got to get on with it. 

So, um, I'm always fairly philosophical about it. It doesn't keep me up at night. Let's say that much. 

I don't worry about it. If I do lose my sight to the degree that, you know, we're very open to like, well, we just might have to leave the place we live because that would be quite unmanageable for someone who is visually impaired. Um, but, you know, it's just stuff. 

It's just stuff. It's funny because I always, people used to come to where we live or they do still for retreats and trainings. And they, you know, it is an absolutely idyllic place. 

We were very lucky and just chance. We ended up here and they say it's so amazing. You know, one of the things I always reminded them was that, you know, in itself, there is no inherent happiness about this place. 

It could also be the worst place on earth. And funnily, all those years of saying that to people, this was a great example. How come we're saying why it could be so such a, you know, unfortunate place to be because we're very isolated. 

There's no public transport, et cetera. Um, but yeah, it's all right. It's sort of stabilised. 

I have injections in my eye every couple of months that seem to help, but it's just one of those weird things may say stable for years or could just go very quickly. Hopefully somewhere in between would be nice. Yeah. 

Yeah. Yeah. We'll manage whatever.

I don't doubt it. You will manage whatever. Um, I think you've got incredible resilience to life and, um, uh, just such a beautiful approach. 

If there's one thing that you feel about yoga, meditation, and life, uh, a message, a reminder that would help people, what would it be? Oh, yeah. That's a very heavy one. About life meditation and yoga. 

Well, don't, don't take any of it too seriously. I guess all the massive game, you know, we called our eldest daughter Lila for a reason. Lila is, is like the Sanskrit for that, you know, the great game. 

It's all just a big game. It's, um, really, you know, I always think that, you know, 50 years, probably long before that I'll be long dead, buried and forgotten. And all the things I worry about on a day to day basis would just be absolutely absurd in hindsight. 

Uh, and I think that's something that people suddenly discover in old age. You know, I remember when my nan was well into her nineties, she just, obviously a lot of people get that very old age and they just come to that conclusion. This is all just so silly. 

Everything I've ever worried about is just so silly. It's probably why the Goon Show did so well during the second world war, you know, it's the nonsense of life. Yeah.

Yeah. And we are back in very weird times. Uh, you can either fret about them, which I think we will probably do as well, but equally it's just a blip in, you know, humanity and yeah.

So just before I close, I'm really aware of taking up, um, your time and, and I know that you, a lot of, uh, asks of your time in so many ways. So for anybody listening, where can they explore your teachings? Um, there's lots of free resources on, uh, be before breakfast.com. There's a lot of free, and there's a lot of free resources, stuff on yoga, like water.com. Actually, I can't remember what my domain names are. Yoga like water.com. I think I'll add it on. 

Oh yeah. There's stuff out there. Um, but yeah, there's lots of free stuff, but you know, I would say to just my opinion, definitely don't think that I'm right.

Well, I have to say you're an absolute joy. So refreshing to speak to. Um, and I want to thank you for sharing your story and your insights and your honesty. 

Um, you've certainly opened up my industry, my understanding and experience, um, of breathing, of yoga, of somatic practises, of so many things that I actually found quite challenging. Um, you, you, you actually teach from a place of feeling, um, and movement rather than rigidity. And, um, that, that personally, that has made the difference for me. 

And I am so grateful for Before Breakfast Club. Um, I'm not on it every single month, but I'm absolutely on it a lot of the time. And I've really appreciated the way that you guide people through it. 

It's such a gift you have. I mean, it's an extraordinary gift and I know I'm not alone. Um, and that many, many people feel the same. 

So, um, so I thank you for sharing yourself, um, and your openness and generosity and, um, your wonderful laugh. And I think somebody in the Before Breakfast Club quite recently said, uh, they think you ought to tell stories, do audible stories. And, uh, and I think you've got the richness of voice to do just that. 

So, um. Yeah, maybe it's my missing, uh, that's the, that's the one job I've not done yet. You'll be building your sound studio before we end it. 

So, um, yeah, thank you. So for anyone listening, um, if this resonates with you or with any of your friends, please feel free to share it. Um, it's, uh, it's wonderful to have been able to share this time with you. 

So I'll thank you. Oh, thank you, Dan. No.